The Press Box - Ep. 200: Seven Burning Premier League Questions

Episode Date: October 27, 2016

The Ringer's Chris Ryan and Ryan O'Hanlon discuss José Mourinho's Manchester hotel, the extinction of the striker, and the continued dominance of Chelsea's N'Golo Kanté. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. Today's episode of Channel 33 is brought to you by Seekkeek, the presenting sponsor for my podcast, as well as the only fan-friendly app for buying and selling tickets for sports and music. With just two taps on your phone, you can instantly buy Seekkeek tickets to an event, and you can enter that event just using your phone. No paper tickets. Drop your old ticket app.

Use one that's built for 2016. Download the free Seatgeek app or go to Seekgeek.com. And don't forget to check out my fairly new website, the ringer.com, for the very best in sports, tech, and pop culture coverage. And don't forget about the ringer podcast network, which features Keeping in 1600, The Watch, Channel 33, Shackhouse, and our ringer shows for the NFL, NBA, and MLB. And finally, don't forget about my new television show, any given Wednesday, which runs every Wednesday night at 10 p.m. on HBO. And reruns on HBO Now, HBO Go, and HBO. on demand. Hello and welcome to the Channel 33 soccer podcast.

My name is Chris Ryan. I'm joined by Ryan O'Hanlon. Pregnant Paws. How are doing, Chris? We are back. We're going to try and do these every other Thursday starting from now. We also were thinking about trying to give it a better name.

But every time I think of one, it's like the overlapping run. Yeah, the bootroom. Yeah, the counterpress. Sorry if anybody has soccer podcast. They're already called that. I'm not no shots. Ryan and I are going to ask each other four questions each. eight questions about the Premier League and soccer in general worldwide, but not MLS today.

So to start off with, Ryan, I want to ask you a question. Is Jose Marino too lonely to be a champion? I think the answer is yes. So for anybody who's like, what are you talking about? The last few days have seen a 100% uptick in the amount of stories about how lonely the Manchester United manager. So apparently he is living in a hotel in central Manchester, like basically the equivalent of Times Square or sunset and Vine in Hollywood. And he can't go out of the house because people like recognize him and mob so he can't like take a walk.

And then his family is still living in London. And so he's just like alone in a hotel getting stuff delivered to him. I find it it's kind of sweet how he like, he goes. clearly, like, really misses his kids and his wife. Yes. I think his, either his son or his daughter is 19 and the other one's 14. Yeah, more like playing soccer already, I think. Yeah.

Jose Jr. Yeah. Jose Jr. Jose Jr. So they can't move. And it's nice to see, like, you know, this guy who's pretty cold a lot of the time. Like, you know, he actually cares for his family. It's kind of sweet.

But, yeah, he's staying at this hotel. And I found a Yelp review for the hotels. So I want to read it to you. The Joseo Raneo Yelp review. Yeah. This isn't his Yelp reviews. This is the worst Yelp review of the Lowry Hotel, which I'm sure is great. I actually have no idea.

This is a review. Too cold, too contemporary, not enough pizzazz. It's the only five-star hotel in Salford, not Manchester, as it likes to brand itself. Point two. Shots itself. Menu for food is out of this world. Quite pricey, but I guess you get what you pay for. But Jose is been getting, what sounds like, whatever the Manchester version of Seameless is, though.

He's like, oh, the apps are great here. He literally said, but I have my apps. Yeah. Which I can't picture him using a phone. And then the last line is a very high turnover of staff, and it shows in their lack of professionalism. If you wanted to apply this Yelp review to what's happening in Manchester United, I think it would almost be too un-nosed. The reason this story is funny outside of just its surface humor is just, Joseo Marino has been having, obviously, a kind of a rocky start now.

We just recording, as we're recording this, Manchester United just knocked, I would say, less than full-strength Manchester City side of the D-plus. Manchester City team. EFL Cup. Yeah. It really rolls off the tongue. But it's been just, you know, rumors about players finding Jose to be a little bit distant and remote. He's known for being a real stickler for detail.

And at Chelsea, you always used to read about how he ran all the sessions and just had, like, really personal relationships with all the players and would motivate each one in different ways. And a lot of those guys from those first Chelsea title teams would sound like they would die for him. You know, it was a really intense relationship. And now it just sounds like he's being a lot more remote. I mean, if the Daily Mailer, it would be believed. And I personally have never found them to be anything but 100% accurate in their football

reporting. I agree. It speaks to a larger condition where it's just like, is this his team? What's going on behind the scenes? Did he have, did he get the players that he wanted? I don't know that, I mean, Bai is really good, but I don't know if he got the other centerback that he wanted. He still doesn't have a central defensive midfielder. They're really locked down that side of the park.

But the crazy thing is that he just got talent coming out of every part of his team. And Manchester United are basically like are grinding like a Pontiac up a hill. Yeah, I would say that I, the Daly Mail and the intercept are my two most trusted sources. They're kind of similar to. The intercept soccer coverage is out there. standing it's it's phenomenal um i the thing about this is that you all you kind of like the emotional connection was sort of the main thing that you thought marino had with his players like convincing them either convincing all these talented players they needed to like knuckle down and play defense

for 90 minutes and like just you know inspiring them to play their best yeah to use a cliche and it's like if he doesn't have that at manchester united which he clearly i think doesn't have right it's like then what really is there? He might just be the wrong stylistic manager for this style of team. I don't really know who would be the right one. I think maybe Angelotti or something like that, somebody who just plays good football

but understands big egos and isn't really in the business of putting himself in front of those players. It's sort of strange to have Pogba, Zlatan, Wayne Rooney, all these big players to say nothing of like Schneierlin and Herrera and all these talented guys who were basically on the periphery of the team

and still have all like 85, percent of the headlines be about Jose. Yeah, exactly. I think the one, I mean, it doesn't seem like there was any real thought behind how the team was put together beyond, let's buy the most expensive player that would conceivably come here. That process. Yeah.

And Anceladia, I think you're exactly right. His main skill is that he's able to figure out how to use misplaced parts and put them together. Marino's thing is finding the players that will listen to him and play his style. And he just really wasn't given. that bonus question off this one are a man you're going to make the champions league this year no okay so what did you ask your first question okay first question arson vanger yes hosie merino's best friend yeah uh hose erino's favorite pervert as he would say Jesus um is arson

vanger smarter than all of us with his team currently in first place arson vanger is really good at buying players he just takes too long to buy them like moustafi seems like a really good centerback, you know, the three central defensive midfielers he has now, Shaka, Cochlan, and El Nanny, like, are all really solid. Yeah. He has probably the best collection of attacking midfielder's outside of Spain at his disposal. Still hasn't bought a striker per se. Like, I mean, Lucas was supposed to be basically bargain bin, Jamie Vardy.

Yeah. But I think that he is doing a really nice job of winning all the games they're supposed to win. Yeah. So the jury is still out. I think that Hot streak Theo Walcott is tough to ride. Yeah. And you just know that there is a six-week Alexis thigh injury coming. There is probably a mezzozo gets the mid-season break flu thing coming.

There's a couple of really important parts of that team. I do find it pretty interesting that they have really clicked together without Ramsey. What do you think of that? I think I agree for the most part. They were terrible against Liverpool in that first game, even though it was 4-3. I don't think it was really that close. And to give up four goals is just bad in any situation. but they've had these amazing highs.

They totally destroyed Chelsea, who is one of the best teams in the league. And I think the issue with Arsenal, I feel like for this season, is that when everything's clicking, the team looks totally, like, incredible. Yeah. Like unstoppable, maybe the best team

when they're, you know, going forward at full speed. But it seems like the littlest thing can sort of trip them up. So it's really hard for me to put, faith in them that they're going to stay at this level and, you know, win the Premier League. Watching Arsenal, Chelsea, and Mantraust United this year so far, it's like watching the three best teams from 18 to 24 months ago. Yeah.

And it just feels like then there's City Tottenham and Liverpool who are playing soccer with fucking batteries strapped to their backs. And it doesn't seem like I want to see Arsenal get the counterpressed to death. I want to see Mustafa getting hounded by three forwards running all around like every outlet that he has. And, you know,

like we'll see what happens when they start, when those fixtures really, really pile up for those guys when Europe gets more intense. Right now, I think they've avoided a lot of the things that have hamstrung them in the past.

Like for instance, like being really out of it, like being behind in their Champions League group and having to like devote a lot of resources towards qualifying or just being terrible at the beginning of the season. Yeah, just like, And having to play catch up and having to fend off like venger out stuff.

I will be interested. So you and I were watching a little bit of highlights between Chelsea and Manchester United. And that seemed like that kind of like that would have been what would be the class of the Premier League about 24 months ago, where it would just been like really well organized teams with some really good attacking individuals, if not flowing beautiful attacks. And now it just feels like it's a different sport. 24 months later. It really does.

It feels like, yeah, just like a simpler version of the game that was like, you know, it's kind of like that's cute. Yeah. You guys played this way, but we have this entire team that's playing the same way running, you know, nonstop for 90 minutes. And like you might stop the machine for 90 minutes, but it's going to keep moving forward the next game. So I have a question here, which is basically maybe don't play in Europe.

Mm-hmm. And that's a question. Because Chelsea and Liverpool, seem like they are i mean chelsea's had a little bit of an up and down start and and and there was even rumors about Conte being in trouble which sounds ridiculous but is not that ridiculous when you consider roman abramovich but it's even more ridiculous conti's reaction was amazing where he's just like yeah in italy i already would have been fired you know uh but these teams that don't have to worry about outside um outside competitions like foreign competitions i do think that when you're

trying to rebuild the squad especially if you don't have the i have 22 world class players line up it really does help not to have to go to frigging uh bucoress on a thursday and you can see chelsea's law i mean man you has lost or drawn each of the i think they drew one after one thursday and then they lost after one thursday it's not and you can just also see that marino has no interest in being the europea league yeah what do you think do you think that like staying out of europe is actually a tactic it's I guess in some way

it's hard it can't just be a tactic because I'm like what are you playing for? Well I just be the hearing fifth should you just be ninth? Yeah like the Europa League question of not wanting to be in the Europa League I think it's

there is an argument you can make that you should just finish eighth or ninth and not be in it. Because Lester is 100% the example of why you should be in the Champions League because Lester got a good group they've basically we already qualified.

They have a perfect system for Champions League, and they're going to have a really, like they're going to have a pretty tasty game in the first knockout. Like, Leicester's going to the round of 60. Yeah, and for a team like Lester, the bump, I mean, you know, the bump isn't as big as it used to be from the Champions League

because the EPL teams get so much TV money, but for Lester compared to all the rich teams, the Champions League, you know, you know, match day revenue and the payments you get, that's a huge deal. It's a huge deal. They were talking about this on the Football Ramble with Celtic.

And I had noticed that I had been sort of thinking about Celtic more in the last two months than I have in the last three years. And part of it is that they played a couple of like, they got their asses kicked one time

but they played in a really exciting Man City game, which pretty much set Man City down the road of this bump that they're having now, this wobble. And I just, all of a sudden was like, wow,

like it's so romantic to see Celtic in the Champions League. Yeah. incredible stadium, and they were talking about this on the football rambal where, like, if you're Musa Dumbelae and you want to get yourself on global television playing against big teams, you can start and be the fulcrum of like a Celtic offense. Like, that's pretty good. Yeah, and all of the Dumbulli rumors are like directly tied with him playing and playing

well against Massachusetts or city. So there is that appeal. I think with Celtic and with Lester, there is like this thing of, with Celtic, it's like they're going to make the champions. every year. So when they're in it, they might as well just like try to play in a way that's fun and encourages a guy like Dumbelli

to want to even come to the team. And Lester sort of has nothing to lose too because I think it's obvious they're not going to make the Champions League again, at least through the Premier League. They'll probably win the Champions League this year and make it again. But they also have nothing to lose.

With them, it almost seems like a guy like Marez is like just playing his best in the Champions League and like whatever. Yeah, if Arsenal is glad that they didn't buy him now, I'm sure PSG will be in from next year if he keeps playing well in Champions League. So why don't you ask your other question? The next question is, did the striker suddenly go extinct without anyone telling us? This is big.

And this is off the back of, I think, not only Daniel Sturge being relegated to playing Cup games. But Sergio O'Guero being suggested that Gordiola is making him available for sale and that what he really wants is Oba Mayang from Dortmund to play. I do wonder whether or not you're going to start to see basically like not necessarily Luciano Spoletti 460 formations, but a school of thought that says like let's get goals from everywhere on the field because relying on a striker both to be in form and healthy because that's what Arsenal's problem is, right?

They don't have somebody like Van Percy or Henrior's banging in 30 goals a season. So they're dependent on Alexis Sanchez, Theo Walcott, an up and down Jerood and getting goals from the midfield from Kazorla, from Ramsey, from Ox, whoever. Liverpool doesn't really have that problem. Tottenham, when they're playing well, doesn't really have that problem. They have goals all over the field. The only thing is that there is a logic to strikers being important. It is kind of stunning.

The Guardiola thing I think has a lot more to do with his need to kind of reject and repudiate whatever has come before him so that he can assert his own control over the team. Yeah, I think that there's one way to look at the decline of the striker in that way because a striker, you know, is essentially this guy that scores goals and is kind of outside the game in some ways, like an almost outside of the manager's control, while if you put like a tactically intelligent, I'm using air quotes as I say that. If you put Sun in. Yeah, Sun from Tottenham, you put a guy like that who's just going to run around and sort of rotate with all the front players. That's more of like a tactic that the manager's implementing, so it's more control.

and I think, you know, the idea with that, with the Spoletti thing that you mentioned, where they would have TOTI playing up top, which I guess Arsenal is kind of dealing with Sanchez. Well, you can, I mean, I honestly think that they should probably do that with Manchester United, where they should have Zlatan basically coming in and setting up all of these other attacking players that they have. Well, he tries to anyway. Yeah, I know. But the problem is that there's like two other guys, like, standing next to him, basically. Yeah, I agree.

But, you know, it's there is some, there's a lot of logic behind it also, in addition to a manager just wanting to, you know, take more control over his team. But I think the thing that's interesting, at least with Liverpool, is that you would think at least against the worst teams in the league, Sturge is pretty vital because they pack it in and maybe Liverpool's sort of counterpressing doesn't work when the other team doesn't even want the ball. and, you know, soccer, we talk all we want about possession and, like, progressing the ball up the field and pressing, but, like, all that matters is if you can score goals. Yeah. And whether that's, like, nipping in and touching in a rebound, whether it's, like, just knowing where to be on a cross,

even if you don't do anything in the rest of the game, it's still so valuable. Yeah, it's been tech. Exactly. It's also, like, why Lukaku is going to get sold for $75 million when you finally get sold. Yeah. Or why, you know, Levantowski

just signed a huge new deal with Bayern Munich. Outside of this top group of coaches that you have in the top of the Premier League, a lot of whom have sort of with the exception of Klopp and Puchino, who have had a little time at their clubs, the newer ones like Marino and Gariola are obviously, like, grappling with their ideas versus the players that they have.

Yeah. You know, and the club's identity. I mean, Marino's not bringing through, I mean, I guess he plays Rashford, but that idea that you play free-flowing attacking football with homegrown products, you know. And I mean he's playing Rashford, but then he's not playing martiality. Right. You know.

Right. Who might be the best peer striker he's guy other than Abramovich. Yeah. Okay. My next question is, and this is a phone one. Okay. So we were just reading a piece this week, I believe it came out by our buddy Tom Payne, who sometimes writes for the ringer.

What's the name of that website? Spilver Lagerung. Okay. We can put out a link to once the podcast goes. But Tom wrote a piece about Sevea and their victory over Atlantico Madrid. And he was talking about how Samir Nazari was sort of the focal point for the Sevia attack. And it's basically like, you know, they've got, is that a loan that they got him on? I think.

I believe so. So I think they got Nazri on one from City. And this is an example of somebody who had been relegated to just being a role player on a really big team, now becoming a huge. huge part of a smaller team. Yeah. And I was saying to Ryan, if you could pick one underused player to be your Nazri Sofia guy. So you go out, you get somebody from one of these bigger clubs and turn that guy into X,

this Nazari figure on a smaller club. Who would the player be? Who would the team be? The player is Cess Fabragas. Okay. Who we basically talk about on every podcast. Who I think, you know, he's fallen out of favor. Chelsea I think mainly because he just isn't the defensive player that Antonio Conte wants from

center midfield but I think that he's just he's just such an amazing passer from like weird angles like he creates so many chances and he doesn't have to be super high up the field like most guys do yeah um that he's just so unique and so talented that there's a way for any manager to fit him into the team if they want to um so the team that I would want him to go to I'm going to say, let's say Valencia, just because that's, you know, a team I think we would all, we all, you know, would like to see be good again in Spain and just play him as like how Juventus used to play Pirlo, surround him with, you know, guys that are going to run up and down the field and let him just pass the ball from wherever the hell he wants, be like a Rick Helme,

but farther back. So I was going to pick Alex Oxley-Chamberlin and just be the Alex Oxley-Chamberian should just be the star of Sunderland You know, they need somebody. I think that that's one way of looking up. The more I was thinking about it, the more I think that Wayne Rooney should go to inter Milan. Not that they don't have somebody who could play that position already there. But, and I don't even really care about Wayne Rooney, but Wayne Rooney needs to be on a team where he is the best player on the team.

I think that that was, he was really successful with Ronaldo. but at this point in his career, you know, Wayne Rooney being the third best striker and the fourth or fifth best striker and the fourth or fifth best midfielder on a team doesn't really work. So he should just play the 10 on a team that where he can be the focal point.

And I think since his pace has been really the problem over this last year especially, going to a league where speed isn't the hugest deal would work for him. So Inter has a history of signing players from other countries. So I think Wayne Rooney to Intermalon. You're going to get attacked by all the inter fans who just heard you say that Wayne Rooney would be the best player on Inter.

Okay, so who's the best player on Inter? I'm going to stand by you and say that Rudy. Runy would be the best player on Inter. Maybe he won't. Maybe he wouldn't. I'm not trying to make it into a joke. No, no, I know, I know. He still has 18 months before he's like, okay, now go play in China or something.

The idea of Rooney playing in Italy is actually really fun. I just, because it just feels like he could do that thing where he drifts a little. I know you're supposed to be tactically. precise in Italy. But I feel like he could do some stuff in Italy because his pace would not be, he wouldn't be required to be exploding off the ball and getting him behind people. He could make, he could finish, which he does really well, he could pick out some passes, he would have a little bit more time on the ball.

And I think because they're more, the defensive orientation of the league would allow him not to have to do what Marino asks, which is just doing a lot of tracking back and a lot of hounding people. Yeah. Which even though he's good at it, it wears him down. Yeah. And not to say the way and Rune is Toti, but Toti is still dominating Syria and need barely even moves.

So, you know, there's a precedent for that being a way to succeed in Italy. Okay. Next question. Is Ingolo Conte the best player in the Premier League? No, but here's what I really like about what's happening with Angola Conte at Chelsea is we have a tendency because when we talk about these things, if you read writing about it, that we think about these teams in very fixed ways. We think about players in very fixed ways.

And I think, you know, when we saw Conte and Maditch lining up, we were just like, you know, Antonio Conte is going to set up this boring team. He's going to have this base of these central defensive midfielders just so that they don't concede. But if you watch Conte over the last three games, he's like basically playing more like a shabby Alonzo style with a little bit, but like with Gerard's energy.

I know that that's like a very Liverpool-centric way of looking at a player. Yeah, but that's an iconic. Like he's making the simple, perfect pass, but then he's moving up. Yeah. Like I've just seen him making a lot of runs. I'm sure heat maps will tell me I'm wrong or whatever. Yeah. He's scored against Manchester United over the weekend.

He's just been looking really, really good recently. And he still is doing that thing where he can win the ball back basically in any situation in any part of the field. Yeah. It's interesting because you know, you think of like a defensive midfielder as like a shield that sort of controls everything, but he's like a defensive first guy who you want to just be able to go everywhere and just unleash him. And yeah, I think that's sort of the most impressive part is like all the stuff he does once he gets the ball to cycle it forward. I think it might sound like it on its face, it seems like a ridiculous question to ask if he's the best player. but part of what we're saying with strikers, the guys that have this massive value

just because they score, if they're now being relegated from their primacy, it's maybe not in that same question. For me, the person is if he keeps scoring at the clip that he's scoring, which is more than he typically has, is Ozel's the best player this year. I would agree.

But Conte has been just, it was not like a weird Lester thing. Like Conte is probably one of the three or four best central defensive midfielders in the world. Yeah, and now Chelsea's even playing, Conte has finally started playing three in the back. And it's like a three, four, three

with two center mids, basically. And you know, you can do that, I guess, when you have Conte just being like three different people at once. All right, I'm going to ask you your last question. Okay. All right. We don't know anything about the EPL. Three teams tied on 20 points. Goal difference separates Manchester,

Manchester City, Liverpool, and Arsenal. You've got United falling out of the top four. You've got Everton starting fast, but maybe tripping up a little bit. We don't know anything about the EPL, but what's one thing you're sure about? Whole city will be getting relegated. Even though Sunderland only has two points. I mean, Sunderland's probably going down too. Sunderland, I think, have not been as bad as their points total suggests.

Okay. But the thing is that that, like, just the bottom of the table, you know, you're only winning so many points to begin with. So if you're behind from the start, you're kind of fucked. But I guess we do say that about Sunderland literally every season and they eventually find the way to get out. I just think Hull are just so bad. Like one of the worst teams we've seen in the Premier League in recent memory.

Their numbers are terrible. Expected goals numbers are terrible. And you just watch anyone play them. And it's like it's so easy for teams to get the ball into the box, like in a way that I just haven't seen it. I think the quality of the Premier League this year is awesome, like as good as we've seen in a long time, from like first to...

Like 12? Yeah, first to 12th, but Hall is like one of the worst teams we've seen. And, you know, I guess we should have expected this when they came into the Premier League with out of manager and like four players on their roster. What's your answer? Okay, the thing that I am sure about,

sure is really this is really strong the top three right now are going to be the top three in this order at the end of the season so city first Arsenal second and Liverpool third yeah I don't know about Liverpool

Tottenham or Manchester United but so my my first my answer to this question was going to be one of Tottenham or Liverpool are really going to explode like in a bad way that I just can't imagine two teams playing at this piece over the course of the season

with the amount of games that they have to play over Christmas, in the cold, in the rain, you know, no matter what kind of depth they have, one of these teams is just going to run into a brick wall. And I think that it might be taught them just because of the extra European games. Yeah. But I have a feeling like this is going to be the top three. I'm pretty sure of it. I would, I think Man City, I think we still would both probably.

I know he's only had six points or something like that where he hasn't won and he isn't won in six games, right? Yeah, I think with today's loss, it's the longest he's ever gone without winning a game. And I don't really know what's going on because they have DeBronback, they have Aguero, he's got Fernandino who he wishes he could play at every position.

Yeah. He's got his new keeper in. Yeah. I'm not exactly sure. I just think that they got a little bit found out by Celtic and a couple of other teams who were like, if you just do this, If you go for it against them, they are frail defensively.

But I just, I don't know, man. It's hard for me to imagine that they're just going to be like this for the rest of the year. Yeah, I agree. I think I would attribute some of it to there have been a lot of stupid individual mistakes defensively. It's not like a systemic issue, which, you know, bodes well for fixing itself in the future. And it's been a tough run of games. Basically, I think, and my answer for Arsenal, too, is if Koshel She'll stay healthy.

I think the Arsenal is going to finish in the top two. Kishelny is that important. I think he's the best central defensive centerback on that team. And I think that you can see that when Arsenal plays a centerback pairing like that, when he gets a partner. Like he had it with Murtysacker for a while, but you have a consistent partnership for a while. Like that arsenal system tends to win games. It's good. You know?

Yeah. It's just really about like having subpar players plugged into those positions. Yeah, exactly. There's never a plan B for Arsenal, and the plan A has like almost no margin for ever, it feels. Like I would, I think City, Liverpool, and Chelsea, for me, those teams are all going to finish top four, and I feel pretty confident in that.

Beyond that, I don't really know. Yeah, I think the Arsenal game was weird, and they haven't really been able to come from behind in any games yet. They're just built to play with the lead. So we don't really know what happened with that. But I think overall, the Arsenal game stands out because they just got run over. And then they lost to Liverpool, too. But I think that game was actually reasonably close.

But other than that, they've been pretty dominant. Yeah. And Liverpool and Chelsea don't have Europe, which is a big factor. All right. Well, we'll be back in two weeks to talk more about the Premier League. And until then, talk to you soon.