The Press Box - Ep. 229: 'The Masked Man Show' With Dave Schilling

Episode Date: January 4, 2017

The Ringer's David Shoemaker welcomes Dave Schilling to discuss "CarmEllsworth" (04:12), Dean Ambrose's IC title win on 'SmackDown' (6:32), Shoemaker coming to grips with Paige's engagement to Alberto Del Rio (10:54), 'Raw' gearing up for the 'Royal Rumble' (25:24), and a familiar face on 'Bring It to the Table' (39:47). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. Today's episode of Channel 33 is brought to you by Seat Geek, the presenting sponsor for my podcast, as well as the only fan-friendly app for buying and selling tickets for sports and music. With just two taps on your phone, you can instantly buy Seekkeek tickets to an event, and you can enter that event just using your phone. No paper tickets. Drop your old ticket app.

Use one that's built for 2016. Download the free Seatgeek app or go to Seekgeek.com. And now without further ado, Here is the Masked Man, David Shoemaker. Welcome to the Maskman show. The first show of 2017. Probably the biggest year in wrestling history, but I don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves.

Dave Schilling, how you doing today, man? We've had it. We started off yesterday emailing about what we were going to talk about, and it was all just sort of like loose and, I don't know. I didn't really know if there was a lot of things to hang this on, but we've got, suddenly it feels like we have too much to talk about. We've got a big smash. We'll talk about that, but we'll talk about, there was a new WWB network show with some radio disc jockey that was hosting in.

Some guy I've never heard of before. We'll talk about that later. Raw is like, well, the road to the Royal Rumble has begun and the road to WrestleMania by proxy, I guess. And there's, you know, a couple, a little bit out of the ring stuff, too. We can't have an episode of The Masked Man Show. We don't talk about Paige in Alberto del Rio. So we'll get into some of that too. But let's just like jump right in because it's the freshest thing in our minds.

We have a new Intercontinental Champion. And I think more importantly than anything else, it feels like the first time I would have ever said we have a new intercontinental champion and let's leave the show with it. Right. I mean, it felt like a big moment on SmackDown. That was an awesome show. Top to bottom, yeah. Maybe the Natalia Nikki Bell. segment could have been better, but that's a nitpick for a show that was expertly constructed,

that built to an exciting finish with a hot crowd. That's all I want from wrestling. They gave it to me. Smackdown's just been tearing it up. And like I said, we'll talk about this, take it to the tape, whatever the WW Network show is. Bring it to the table. Bring it to the table. Yeah.

The table. Yeah. But they talked about the Raw versus Smackdown stuff on there. Smackdown's really been stepping it up. I think they, did they beat Raw on the ratings? Last week for the scene of it. return. I was telling you before the show, like, I skipped it because of the holidays, I Smackdown

last week and just kind of just forgot that I hadn't watched it and was so into the show last night that I mean, I, like, I started the show a little bit in, eagerly, you know, started it back over, went back and watched last week. It's, like, SmackDown is just firing on all cylinders right now. And part of it's like, we keep saying it. They have less to work with, and so they make everything matter in just a really cool way. The best example of them making chicken salad out of chicken shit, I can curse, I forgot, is Callisto coming out to save Dolf Ziegler. Yeah.

Remember Calisto and Baron Corbin had an angle. Of course he would come out. Sure. And of course, then you use him to trigger the Dolf Ziegler heel turn. It's like everything is connected. Like writing is supposed to work. Such a good segment. I mean, listen, the, the, the, the way.

One thing I always miss, like, there's always the joke about people joke online, like, why isn't anybody helping Roman Raines? So he doesn't have any friends or like, whatever. And I prefer the world we live in now with shades of gray. It's not just the baby face locker room and the heel locker room. Man, do I miss those scenes growing up, like watching Memphis wrestling? We're like, they let the beat down go on for three minutes, and then literally every baby face in the locker room would come out, you know, and break things up. I love, I mean, it's just, it does.

It's a certain, like, connectivity. that it feels like we're lacking at times. Do you have thoughts on Carmel'sworth? I think it's a good use of both of them. Yeah, I think that's the appropriate response. I was super out on Ellsworth, and you can go back and listen to archives of this podcast, and you can hear me.

As people often do. I hope so. And you can hear me slagging off James Ellsworth, but the heel turn and the way that they sort of face him out of that main event program, I thought was excellent. I think they're using him well. He adds a little spice to Carmela that's not always, already there.

Obviously, we don't buy the romance angle because it's James Ellsworth, so it adds another layer of heel heat to Carmela because she's manipulating this goofball who has no self-awareness. I think it's really well done. Yeah, no, it's good. I mean, I did a giant year-in column last week, I guess, which everybody should check out. It's really amazing. I did my top matches of the year, top feuds of the year, and, you know, really focused in on the feuds, but Ellsworth was my rookie of the year, and I thought, or he was in the running,

you know, and I thought it was just undeniable. He gets a good promo. What he did with what he has been given. He got over in a squash match, and he was the one getting squashed. Yeah. It's hard to deny that guy's ability to be a wrestler. And the way that they've, you know, I mean, I think in retrospect, even people, even though Ellsworth haters out there won't mind his placement in the, in the, you know, main event

picture that much because of what Smackdown has to work with. You know, it's just, they're shuffling the deck chairs, but it's like, this isn't a deck, it's a rowboat, you know? I mean, they don't have that many options. And just the, you know, the ability to keep it fresh has been pretty impressive. But to take Dean Ambrose, to bring this full circle, to take Dean Ambrose from the anchor of the show, the number one draft pick for Smackdown. And, you know, at some point, you have to remove them from the title picture, but

to put him in an intercontinental title feud and to have it feel so vital, just shows. I mean, Daniel Bryan talked about it on Talking Smack, but the fact that that match was the main event instead of the contract signing was just amazing. I mean, it just made it feel that much more important. And, I mean, you know, Russell Kingdom happened last night. I mean, we were watching Russell Kingdom matches before we went on the air. And we were talking about how, you know, in the main event, it's, it's. you kind of know going in that the baby face is going to win. Not all the time, but, you know, I really, I thought that there was no way,

I thought there was no way that, that Ambrose would win that match last night, which might have been naive of me, it might have been, I wasn't thinking that hard about it. I was just there in the moment. Like, this is going to set up a future match, which will matter more. But I feel like when you know, when you feel like you know the outcome, they can play with your emotion so much differently. In this case, they flip the script on me anyway. But man, just to see him win.

Like, it's him winning and doing the Seth Rollins slash Roddy Piper built spin thing. And it just felt like the biggest win of his career, weirdly. I don't know. More so than money in the bank for some reason. But I think what we always forget about with wrestling, and it's the most vital part of professional wrestling, is a personal, like, issue, as J.R. always says, between a baby face and a heathes. and then they fight over that personal issue. And they built an angle, granted it's another angle about my girlfriend and your wife and they don't like each other and sexual innuendo and stuff.

But it's an issue that seems like it's got legitimate heat to it. And they wrestled a fairly stiff match last night. Oh, yeah. They weren't holding back. Even the Miz, who is notoriously the feather bed of WWE was laying in his stuff. And it made the match more exciting. The Neater Falls worked really well. And it all goes back to the fact that they seem like they legitimately don't like each other.

And the Miz being an effective heel because he's not trying to get cheap, like, jokey heat. I think the best compliment I can pay this is that there would be, there's a version of this reality where we're spending this segment complaining about bringing Renee Young into the storyline because of like wrestling logistical logic purposes or whatever. and like it just, I have no complaints. It felt so urgent and real and sort of like there was no reason to not do it, you know? And they just pulled it off. It reminded me of Flair Savage WrestleMania 8, not as good of a match, not as big of a stage, but the way that they set it up and the way that the heat seemed legitimate was reminiscent of that. Yeah, I think that that's interesting.

I was just watching WrestleMania 6, so I have, you know, Andre the Giant can't walk as well I'm thinking of. Wait, was that six?

No, no, that was, uh, yeah. He was at six. He was, I don't think he wrestled at 7. I'm watching all the Royal Rumbles on the network right now,

and, uh, I don't, I can't think about WrestleMania's too much. Yeah, uh, I watched all, we'll talk about the Royal Rumbles at the,

at the end of, to close out the show. But, uh, yeah, it's WrestleMania 6 was Andre J. Robert. And Andre was at the point where he just couldn't like he, like I was watching with famed agent Brian Dipperstein and I was

just like watch how many steps Andre can take without holding the ropes or his opponent and the answer was like three. You know, I mean, it's, it was really sad. Sorry to bring things down. We will talk about Royal Rumbles at the end of the show because it's, it's that time of year and it's, it's getting exciting. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, so we had, we had the Miz and Maurice, I mean, Maurice I probably should have talked about more in my, in my year in column. She's the secret MVP. I don't know. She's the basketball glue guy of pro wrestling.

She came back and the Miz became one of the best five wrestlers in WWE. I mean, it was just crazy. It was immediate, yeah. As soon as he got the title from Zach Ryder on that Raw after WrestleMania, and she like slapped him or something, whatever she did to cost Rider the belt, it seemed like he either got more comfortable with himself having his wife back on the road. or the writers just got more interested in him, or he decided to work harder because he knew something was coming.

But he's a totally different character, and going back and watching WrestleMania 27 or whatever it was, and him main eventing, and just the way he carries himself is different, and the way that he looks is different, the way that he works, his matches is different. He's great, and Maurice is 100% a big part of it. Yeah, it's been really great. Well, moving deftly from one real-life relationship,

in the wrestling world to another. I don't know. I know what's coming. I know. I know. I know. Jim Cunningham, my able producer on this show was sending me links of stuff to talk about yesterday. And the Alberto de Rio and Page stuff starts showing up.

I guess this is relevant to Monday Night Raw because there was all these like, you know, tweets and rumors flying around because Page was there to get some sort of, you know, physical or whatever. I'm, like, I am simultaneously uncomfortable and totally enrapped in the fact that, or in the question of whether or not they're just keeping her employed for the sake of total divas. Because she's a huge part of those promos, which aired, like, so many times during WWU programming this last week. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case. I mean, and also, I mean, yeah, I mean, who knows? there's so much weird stuff Del Rio seemed to

Del Rio was Paige was it raw on Monday Dol Rio is like getting arrested in Europe somewhere Del Rio subsequently tweeted that he's pregnant which just sort of set the

sort of set the online commentariat into a tizzy we don't know if that means Paige is pregnant or if he's just totally messing with those but probably the latter it's just it's just such a weird weird world

Page is those like posing with her wedding ring or engagement ring. I mean, there's just, I don't even know. It's so blatant that it feels like a wrestling angle, but we know it's not. Well, it could be, I guess. I don't know. They've done an interesting job of blurring the lines between K-Fabe and reality with Talking Smack and now with this new show with Rosenberg. It could be.

I don't know. It just feels so tawdry and sad that I don't want it to be. But we're in this, we are in a world and we keep talking about it where like the stuff that happens that's not part of an angle, I think because of the fact that we feel confident that it's not part of an angle, it's like the misdirection that I felt in the Ambrose match, it makes it so much more compelling, right? I mean, like my favorite thing, and I've been a proponent of the Seamus Cesarro storyline, you know, to a limited degree. But my favorite thing Seamus has done over the past six months is post that photo the other day of him with, uh, I mean, I've been a proponent of, uh, with Barrett and Drew McIntyre, or the former Drew McIntyre just like hanging out. And I was just like, oh, man, oh, if that were a storyline. Like, if they would only come back and, you know, whatever. Like, it's just that stuff that happens online

that you're confident it isn't part of the storyline is a better storyline. Yeah, there was a photo circulating from the Miz's New Year's party and Cody Rhodes was there. And I was like, oh, Cody Rhodes, wouldn't it be great if he was like tag teaming with the Miz or something? Instead of wrestling cage matches with Kurt Angle or whatever? Yeah, I mean, More power to Cody Rhodes.

I love Cody Rhodes. I just wish he would come back. Because I think that he, under the right circumstances, would be great. But those are the things that Marks like us talk about all the time. It's like, what if, what if? Cody thing is interesting. I mean, I feel like he'll be back. So I don't even get that anxious waiting for, I mean, let him go out and have some fun.

Let everybody, let all the wrestling fans in America see him wrestle in a gym somewhere because it's like, it's fun. Like, that's an experience. Yeah, and it's sort of like, instead of going back to NXT and that visual of him being demoted, he gets to go out and tour and basically workshop what his next gimmick is going to be. Yeah. And I think it's great for wrestlers to be able to do that.

But then, you know, we sit here talking about, like, is Del Rio working us? Is Cody working us? Who's working us? That kind of thing. It's an interesting place to be in because we know so much about wrestlers now. Yeah, it's totally true. If you were a conspiracy theorist, you would think that maybe this. like Cody is like the Manchurian candidate

who's going to like just take over the Indies for WWE the way they're like trying to take over UK wrestling with this with this new tournament they're having You mean how Vince sent Kevin Nash and Scott Hall to WCW? Exactly, that's exactly what I'm yeah. Yeah, I mean, WWE's expansion, I'm writing about this I think next week

but week or whatever after the UK tournament so that's happening next weekend. And so I guess week after next, but yeah, WWE's just like unlimited expansion at this point is sort of crazy. Crazy mostly because it's just happening before our eyes and sort of later than it should have happened if they were going to do it. I think the reason why they needed to do it now is they've established the network as a presence

as a thing that people want to have. There's a big enough library to where it's sellable just to people like us who want to watch old wrestling. But now what they have to do is, put programming on the network that is specific to each territory. So there's going to be, after the UK thing, a Chinese show. There's going to be probably a Japanese show if they're ready to go up against New Japan or whatever. We'll see how long that takes.

That's a ways off. Indian wrestling. There's going to be every sort of big country that they can expand the network into is going to get its own show at some point, I think. Yeah, I mean, and they're running the, I mean, if you want to be, again, a conspiracy theory is they're running in the UK basically like they did when they were trying to kill all the territories in the 80s where they're just like they're counter programming against another big show and they're you know making all the talent sign these and this is again you know just what

I'm reading online but making the talent seemingly sign contracts that don't prohibit them from doing anything but might be prohibiting them from doing the big things yeah regal said they're not they're not prohibited from doing anything but that seems a little bit I mean it seems just why like why sign the contract you know like it's just sort of crazy It's curious timing that this was announced not long after the ITV World of Sport thing. And that's like, this is a first shot. And World of Sport, I mean, I'm sure most wrestling fans are familiar with it. But like, after the demise of WCW and ECW, whatever, I mean, World of Sport is like one of the only name brands that could actually, that actually has any meaning on the level of WWE anywhere else in the world.

I mean, with the exception of New Japan. And like the existing companies, it's like they could that could actually, you know, you could put on a, I mean, they did. They put on a World of Sport Show and, you know, people watched. Yeah. But yeah. So, I mean, we don't, Russell Kingdom is still blurry in my mind. And, you know, I don't think there's any way WWE could ever work, you know, work Japan on that level. Although, you know, watching Kenny Omega and Okada, you're just like, I wonder what these guys would look like in WWW.

you know, it's a totally different world. But it's funny as like, you know, we provincial Americans are just like, well, someday, they'll sign Okata soon, right? He's got the size. He's got the ability. He's got the look. But like, why would you want to leave? You know, I mean, you get, you have a basketball podcast.

I get into these arguments with people all the time of a basketball free agency where it's just like, well, obviously, KD will want to go to, you know, fill in the blank or whoever the free agent is. And I'm just like, what if they just like like like their neighborhood, you know? Or like, what if they want to leave because, you know, they just. just like met a girl in another city or something, you know? Like, there's so many reasons. I'm going way off script. I think the one difference between, you know, Okada going to WWE or Kenny Omega or whatever

and KD going to the Warriors is it's not like if KD goes to the Warriors, he has to play on courts where the hoop is a little bit higher or he can't dunk or something. You know, there's so many things that, and we watch those clips. of that match where there are spots that you would never see in WWE because of neck trauma concerns, head trauma concerns, people just not working stiff that way and Vince not liking it. You know, it just seems like there are some people who would rather stick around and get to be able to throw potatoes every once in a while. I have more to say about, about non-WWE work rate in just a second. But before we get on to RAW, let's have a quick word from our sponsor.

Today's episode of the Masked Man Show is brought to you by Bachelor Party. That's right. Just like the TV show, The Ringer Network's companion podcast, Bachelor Party, is back on Channel 33, The Ringer's podcast feed. You can join the Ringers Juliet Litman every week for a breakdown of the latest episode. People always ask me why that Masked Show doesn't have its own feed. And this is why, because the Bachelor Party podcast is the closest thing to the Masked Man Show you could ever possibly imagine. If you're not watching reality TV in the same way that you're watching pro wrestling, there's something wrong with you.

Absolutely. I mean, I think that there should be some WWU wrestler who does The Bachelor one day. Oh, God, I'd be so into that. You can listen to The Bachelor Party on the Ringers Channel 33 podcast feed on iTunes by going to iTunes.com slash the ringer

or find us anywhere you ever get podcasts. You know how to get it. It's on right before this on the Channel 33 feed. And it's honestly my favorite channel 33 podcast after my own, which I never listened to. I also agree.

Juliet does a great job. She's got some really cool guest this season. Back to the pro wrestling angle. Actually, we do need a pro wrestler on the bachelor. A hundred percent, but the question is, who would it be? Like, Dolf Ziegler? Yeah, he's got the look.

He's got the charm. He's, as far as I know, still single. I don't know if that's true, but we'll... Well, yeah, of course. We don't actually know if he's single or not. I don't want to spread that rumor. But I would watch Dolf Ziegler on The Bachelor. Yeah.

Huff. Wrestling Bachelor rankings. This could be a whole column. I'll leave that one to you. I won't take that idea. All right. Yeah, so you're talking about moves that, you know, Okada can do that he's never going to do in WWE. Like, what, like, that's always a conversation.

I remember I talked to Seth Rollins a long time ago, a year or two ago. Interviewed him for a column, I think, back at Grantland. And he told me he was never, he had never been told he couldn't do a move. in his time in WWE. Now, you know. Does that include the Pile Driver? Well, I'm getting, maybe the Pied. He, yeah, he did not specify, but, you know, and you're always getting worked when he talked to wrestlers, right?

Clearly, he's working a different style. And maybe it's just they told him the things he should do and that, you know, necessarily exempted other things. But, you know, in his pre-injury, Rallens was doing stuff that no one had ever done in W.W.E. before. I mean, that was just the sort of breathtaking thing about watching him. not just the curb stop, but the buckle bomb. And just his whole move set just seemed a few degrees off. In a way that, you know, Kevin Owens is doing a lot of stuff you would have never expected him to do. But his feels more sort of more firmly ensconced in the W.W.E. style than Rollins sometimes did.

But Rollins now is a totally different wrestler. Watching him on Raw, man, it's like he's moving in slow motion. It does feel that way. that show feels like it's moving in slow motion sometimes. Yeah, I think that's an interesting, that's an interesting point. I mean, it's, I just, I just, like, yeah, I mean, it's, like, it's like, it's like he is doing, he's, like, taken on the worst of the Ambrose style, sort of, where you see, I mean, and literally, like, if you think about, what I've said about Ambrose, and even people like the Mizz,

those two guys had an incredible match together and have great chemistry. Even, like, my beloved Becky Lynch has a little bit of this, like the, like, there's this, the difference between like an A plus all-time wrestler and someone who's just below is that you can, there's like the split second where you see them making a decision to do a move, sort of, you know? And Ambrose sort of does that to a comical extent at his worst. Yeah. But it feels like Rollins has just acquired some of that. And I hope to God he hasn't like gotten the yips from, you know, injuring people in the ring and being scary.

You know, it's just sort of crazy. He must have. I mean, it would weigh on my conscience if I, of course. If I injured someone, you know, in the ring or in any sort of situation. But I also think it's different for him because now he's working babyface. He's not running the matches. Yeah. effective, but I also don't know if that's just because he's been working this whole time against

two comedy heels. Yeah. You know, Kevin Owens, I love Kevin Owens. He's my favorite male wrestler. You know, my favorite wrestler is Sasha Banks. But in terms of just like the male workers, he's my favorite. But unfortunately, most of the work that he's been doing has been like making people laugh. In some ways, in a lot of ways, Roman Raines is the perfect baby face, if you want to call him that foil to Owen.

in Jericho just because he's a straight man right like he you can make fun of him you mean they can talk they can talk shit to him and the fan and the crowd's kind of into it you know and like he's not trying like yeah it's it's just a it's not it's not as a weird a fit as as rawlins i think you're totally right about that um but yeah i mean i think that i mean yeah i i think that i'm not i don't want to dog on rawlins i have no doubt that like this is a minor blip in his absolutely you know great career and it's crazy to think that he's, what, four years in? I mean, and he's as established as he could possibly be. Yeah, he was just put in a tough spot. I mean, I think I don't think the plan was ever to turn him face.

I think, you know, after injuring Finn Baller, they decided to do that. And so you combine him injuring Finn at SummerSlam and then being put in the situation that he wasn't necessarily prepared for, that wasn't something the writers were prepared for. It's just like a rough place for him to be in. And he's done, well as he could. Yeah. Well, speaking of Finn, interesting that you brought him up, there have been,

he tweets cryptically more than he tweets straightforwardly, but tweeted some stuff that made people think that he was on his way back to the ring. So when he got injured, it looked like the timetable for recovery was a Royal Rumble return. Yeah. And we are fully set,

we were like fully gearing up on Raw, at least, for the Royal Rumble. I guess Smackdown has its first entrant now, too. But Raw is the seat of Royal Rumble preparation right now. And we got that, you know, I thought a really effective show closing segment where, you know, Goldberg came out and then Reins came out and then Braun Strowman came out. I mean, Bronz-Roman's another one where, like, without even, I wasn't even paying attention and he's like a legit main eventer and I'm all in on it. You know, like it's really strange. That match with Sammy Zane was awesome.

Yeah. It felt like an attitude-era match, which I know we throw that sort of that phrase around a lot of, oh, it reminds me of the attitude era. And sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. But this was the best part of the attitude era. And in the match, you didn't know how it was going to end. I think the end maybe wasn't as effective as it could have been. But he just beat the crap out of Sammy Zane. And every single move looked like it hurt.

And Sammy sold it super well. And I believe in Braun-Strauman as a monster. Yeah. Which has not been the case in years when WWE, the UMagas and the lashleys of the world didn't get over as monsters, really, the way that they should have. I was Googling for pictures of Braun Strowman without a beard, and there's some of them are out there. But weirdly, like, a lot of the pictures that came up in the Google Image Church were pictures of Snitsky. And now I can't get that comparison out of my head. The Snitsky-Huydenreich era in WWE is a dark time.

Yeah. Yeah, it sure is. Yeah, I mean, it's just that match, I'll just formally agree with your assessment of that match. It was really fun, and it was exactly what needed to happen. And, yeah, I mean, it's just one of those instances of WWB just booking it exactly the right way. Like, no frills. I mean, frills in the sense that, you know, it was a brutal match that was really cool. I love when they go backstage, well, because of the, you know, the attitude error thing.

It's a nice, nice change of pace. But I love watching it and I just love listening to the way the crowd reacts because there's the moments where the crowd literally can't see them. You know, like when they're in the tunnel or whatever and like the camera works a little bit dark, just to hear like the kind of waves of the crowd as they come in and out from backstage. Yeah, it was a really fun match. And I think that, you know, it's going to be interesting to see what they do with Sammy from here.

Yeah. He's sort of in an interesting position where he's like, immediately, like he is, he's almost untouchable in the spot that he's at. Like, he could lose all of his matches and still be what Sammy Zane is right now. But with the exception of him feuding with Kevin Owens over the title belt, it's hard to imagine what the trajectory of him into the main event is right now. Not saying he can't get there, but it's not as A to B as you can fantasy book all these other people, you know?

I think there's got to be a U.S. title run for him once Roman Raines decides to, to loosen his grip on that belt. Yeah. I thought he was going to drop it. Maybe. I thought he was going to drop it on Monday. Oh, to Jericho? Yeah, I thought that that was the move.

It would have been nice. I mean, it seems like such a waste of that belt unless he's not going over. After the match, when he held up the title, or maybe when he came out later in the night, when he held up the title, it really felt like it was, I don't know. I mean, it was a small thing, and it wasn't like Dean winning the IC title felt like a big deal. But it does sort of give a little bit of credibility. At this point, Roman Raines is feuding in the main event, and he's proudly holding up the U.S. title.

Like, that's something. Yeah, I just wish that it was a prop and a storyline, as opposed to just a thing that he carries around. You know what I mean? Totally legit. But back to that show closing segment, you know, there's John Sina, well, okay, the Undertaker is coming back next week on Raw.

Sean Michaels, presumably is just, back to pimp this new movie that he's in. Yeah. And to sell tickets to the Royal Rumble, I'm sure. But we've got Goldberg, we've got Brock, we've got Roman Ring, like all these people are in the ring. Everybody talks about the big pops. I've written about it.

I ranked the greatest pops in Royal Rumble history a while back. But one of the coolest things is that the Royal Rumble has are the stair downs. The unlikely stair downs or like the setting up the WrestleMania feud stairdowns. I mean, I was just going through after that, just trying to think, I mean, having Goldberg and Rain stare like go nose to nose was kind of a cool moment. You agree? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's, they use that segment not only to sell Goldberg and Lesnar meeting in the Royal Rumble

and to sell sort of the main event title angle, but also for Goldberg to sort of like give rubs here and there to all these guys where Owens finally get serious. throws all the furniture and it's like, I'm going to, I can beat you up. Yeah. And then the rain stared at and then them spearing, doing the joint spear on Stroman. Those are the things that make Goldberg useful down the road, or not even down the road, but now for the guys who are going to be around in six months. Yeah. Because we all know Goldberg is not going to be on Rale every week, ever.

He just had his 50th birthday. Happy birthday. Yeah, Mazel to Goldberg. But he's never going to be that guy. So he has to, in the time that he is in WWE, make those dudes legitimate stars on his level. And I think they did a pretty good job of that. I don't know if them spearing Stroman was the best choice

after they spent all that time building him up as a monster to knock him down like that. Oh, come on. Raines and Goldberg. No, that mean those two guys could spear. Totally. It was them together. North Korea into the water, man. I know.

I just don't want to see him on his ass that much, I guess. It's a minor quibble, but just those guys working with Goldberg, as opposed to, as you always say, him existing in a different universe. That's great. You know, that's what we need. That's what the Rains is and Owens's and Rollinses' of the world need is to interact with these people. Are there any other matchups? I mean, like, are there any other like stare downs in the Rumble that would really get you excited that you can predict? Now, obviously, you can't predict everything.

Sure, because we don't know exactly who's going to be. in it? I think everybody's going to be. Even the people with matches are probably going to be in the Rumble. Yeah, but they probably have enough star power to be like, Owens, you don't need to be in this. You're the champion. And Raines, you don't need to be in this. But we'll see. I mean, I think Undertaker is staring down anybody. Just like the idea of the Undertaker being in the Rumble, which is likely. So Undertaker and Lesnar, Undertaker and Goldberg, Undertaker and Baron Corbin. Yeah. Like, that's a guy who needs to look strong next to all three of those dudes, and they did a good job of making him look strong with Sina, and they have the

Sina match next week with Corbyn. That's what I want to see is, like, the new class of wrestlers interacting with the superstars, the super-superstars. Yeah, yeah, and I hope, so that's why I hope they get a bunch of the suit, the legacy stars into the Rumble. I mean, that's, Daniel Brian, cut a nice promo on returning stars on Talking Smack, and, you know, I think all that's legitimate, but the Rumble is, like, the best possible use of them. just to have those moments. And to have them in semi-organic moments, not like the WrestleMania, you know,

we're going to have Stone Cold Steve Austin and Sean Michaels and Mick Foley come out and beat up some current guys. Do their finishers and go home kind of thing. Yeah. I'd be really, I'm like I'm, the baby face, okay, so now we have baby face versus baby face stare downs, I think are a really cool category. I think that if Finn does come back, you know,

whether or not it's in the Rumble, but whatever the first Finn-Rollins interaction is, is going to be really intriguing. Even like, you know, we have the, we have indie history together category is really great, too. You know, like, presumably, or just NXT, whatever, but like, you know, Owens and Finn Baller staring each other down. They don't even have to go right in, you know, they don't have to brawl, you know, there's a little, there could be a little mutual respect there or whatever, you know.

I mean, there's a lot of really interesting things. And then now we have the Raw versus Smackdown stare down, right? So like anybody, like Bray Wyatt versus any of the main eventors on Raw is suddenly interesting again. Yeah. Right? Because he's, well, I mean, he's the, Bray Wyatt's the king of the Stairdown or, you know, but like, I don't know. I'm just, I think there's lots of cool things. Do we even talk about the tag team title switch, by the way?

Not yet. All right. Speaking of tag teams, I just want to say another category of Rumble Stairdown that I think I love is when it's two or three people who are friends. who are like, oh, we're the last people in, we have to fight. So there's got to be a spot where the New Day is by themselves and they have to wrestle each other. The New Day needs that sort of, I don't think they should break up. I keep saying it, but they do need, but that kind of moment would be.

Some tension. Some tension would be cool. Yeah, didn't they start with Axe and Smash one year? Yeah, they did. One of the first Royer Rumbles or whatever? I think 90 or 89. Yeah. I mean, that's always just exciting, you know?

And especially when it's guys like that where it's like, yeah, we're just fighters. We want to beat each other up. Everybody wants to be the champion and go to WrestleMania. But the tag team seen on Smackdown is great, I think. This is the first time. I mounted a half-hearted but serious defense against the Charlotte Sasha title swapping. Normally this kind of stuff doesn't bother me. I don't get bothered by the unwritten rules of wrestling booking the way that some people do.

but I did react to that tag team title swap. I almost went into that dark place. Just because I had said a million times, like they're actually doing right by American Alpha by not putting them in the spotlight, and when they do finally win the title, it's going to mean that much more. And that ended up being on like the Christmas episode of SmackDown.

But I don't mind it that much. And I do think this is the right feud, like, you know, American Alpha versus the Wyatt family. It's a stark contrast of this sort of vanilla, not vanilla in the negative sense, but like traditional baby face team against this weird supernatural presence. And so they look good next to each other.

And you can tell who are the good guys and who are the bad guys. In the opposite bucket is New Day versus the Wyatt family where it just felt strange that these comedy baby faces are wrestling this weird heel team. So I think it works well on that level, but I didn't like it. I didn't like the switch. I mean, I smiled because I liked that team, but I don't think they're ready.

Yeah, no, I think that's about right. I mean, there's this, you know, WWE clearly does a thing sometimes where they'll put a belt on somebody just so when it matters, they're already the chance. You know, it gives them legitimacy on the road to the ultimate legitimacy. I think Ambrose is in that category. Yeah. Because now he's back in the mid card working in this feud with the MIS,

and that title switch almost seemed like, well, we just need someone to anchor the baby-faced side on SmackDown until SENA comes back. So we need to put the title on this guy and make him legitimate. Yeah, I mean, I think that's WWI. I don't remember if I wrote this years ago or just conducted an interview that never got to print,

but I remember talking to a financial analyst who tracked WWE's stock, and he was like, what they need. This was at the beginning of the rise of Daniel Bryan, so that long ago. And he was like, they have CM Punk. Of course they have John Sina.

Maybe they have Daniel, but what WW needs is five. They need five John Sinas. And it's really hard to balance the catching lightning in a bottle versus like creating these stars because in the modern era you can't really create the stars. I mean, you could obviously. They're creating Braun Strowman from, you know, scratch pretty well. Although not from scratch. They didn't make him six, eight and three hundred pounds.

Yeah, he fits a template. You know, there's some guy. where it's like, here's the obvious way to build that person up. And with Braun's Roman, he's massive. So just make him a big, scary dude. But with John Cena, they didn't know what he was going to be until he did that

Halloween episode, but he dressed up like a rapper. And then that turned him into the biggest thing ever. With Austin, Austin sort of fell into his character. The rock fell into it. I don't think that they create stars so much as they understand when the

right thing has been hit upon and then strap the rocket to their proverbial ass. Yeah, I think that's totally true. I think that there's some, I mean, we've talked enough about Braun-Strauman. I think that there's, like, everybody I know is so into Braun-Strauman right now, and I think that there's some, in some ways he's the anti-Roman reigns because, well, because he is a, in a lot of ways, a traditional WWB type who is getting that rocket, but everybody's into him in a way.

And I feel like my theory is because we know from WWE history that there's a ceiling, right? No one is concerned that Bronz Stromen is going to be a two-year world champion. More than anything else, everyone's concerned that he's going to, that he'll have a role once Roman Reigns squashes him. You know, Roman Reins beats the crap out of him or whatever. That's what I am expecting to be the WrestleMania program for Roman. There have been, with apologies to Dean Ambrose who came out this week against spoilers. That is what people seem to be. That is one of the rumors that I keep hearing

is that they're building brawn up to take on Roman at Rosamania. People have talked about that. I'm not breaking any news here. But yeah, but for what it is right now, they're doing a really good job with them. Now, speaking of spoilers, speaking of violating K-Fabe in all these ways, we have to, before we get out of here,

touch on, bring it to the table. the new, hopefully ongoing WWE Network show starring my good friend Peter Rosenberg along with mostly starring Paul Heyman and JBL it's sort of WWE's pardon the interruption basically

but it's the way that they're I mean the way that they're kind of tweaking with KFabe I don't know that there's a way to do this show without sort of blurring the lines, but man, it was interesting. What did you think? It's complicated because I think it's a show that as fans of wrestling for years, we've always

wanted on television. Is having people talking about wrestling intelligently and without the artifice of the product. But at the same time, it's really hard to have a legitimate conversation about these things when it is a show that has to, one, sell the product. And two, never denigrate anything about the product outside of K-Fave. So, like, if, like, JBL's little monologue about James Ellsworth is a great example of that. So JBL sort of bounced back and forth between James Ellsworth is a troglodyte and a slug. But also, he did a great job in seizing his opportunity to be a W.

He's in character and then he's out of character, but the ultimate conclusion that he makes is always going to be pro-WE. There's nobody that's on that show or will ever be on that show that's going to be like, you know what? I think that Seth Rollins turning baby face was a huge mistake. No one's gonna, I don't think that's gonna happen on that show.

That doesn't mean that it can't be entertaining. And I think Rosenberg was awesome on it, and he was the perfect guy to do it, to bring break that barrier. But at the same time, I just don't think it's ever going to be as, it's not going to be the show that I want it to be, and that's just, that's fine. There's no reason why it happened. It was closer to that show, though, than you would have ever expected that they were got.

100%. Yes. I think that everybody was, I think all three people on that show were really wonderful. I think JBO was sort of the breakout star for me, because he was just, it seemed, he was just, he was probably watched a lot of ESPN in his time. He knew, like, he was just 100% acquitted to be that, to be that character on that show. Yeah. And he did, he was, he did shoot, it felt like he was shooting more than Heyman.

I think part of it's that Heyman is, as the face of a wrestling company and, you know, as a public figure in the wrestling world, as a manager for all the years that he was, he's, he has been living, he's been living the work more fully than anybody else around him for a longer period of time. Yeah, I mean, he's been in the business since the 70s. You know, taking pictures for Vince McMahon at Madison Square Garden. And he's been, I mean, fielding, I mean, just in the modern era or in the past decade, has been out there doing PR for WWE and fielding questions like, you know, K-Fabe violating questions on a daily basis, you know, in and out. And also, he's still a character on the show.

JBL is an announcer so that he doesn't have to be selling an angle because he's not part of it yet. But Paul Heyman is specifically part of an angle. And there was a moment where Rosenberg was leading Haman into saying something positive about Lesner. And then JVL's like, you don't need to set him up. He knows what he's doing. He's a master at selling the product. Of course. And I think that's the thing that I'm concerned about because, I mean, all those, like the big debate shows on cable.

I won't name any of them, but I'm sure a lot of them, there's situations where they have to disagree. and one of the people on the show has to take a side that maybe they don't agree with. So in a sense, those shows are worked in the way that wrestling is worked. 100%. So there's always going to be an element of the work on a show like that.

But at the same time, I think it's the selling of the product that I want them to get away from. Like, I don't need them to be pushing WrestleMania Survivor series. I agree with you on that point. The flip, I mean, the other half of it, though, is that, I mean, the way that Haman put over John Sina,

similar to the way that JBL put over Ellsworth, but Haman's Sina promo is just fire. Yeah. And that's a version of putting over the product that I'm totally behind, because it's a fresh take, you know, it's a different, and it is sort of a, it's sort of a shoot, you know,

just like, Haman went after the listeners of this show indirectly. I mean, the nerds on the internet took a beating. And I said, you know, there are people online who were offended by that, who, you know, they're like, you know, we're your fan base, quit making fun of us. But like, you know, just the way that Rosenberg got

just the way that Hayman and JBL were both messing with Rosenberg throughout the course of the show that's really giving it to him calling it ribbing or whatever you want to say we wrestling fans we can take a helping of that too I would eat that up if I was in his position

it would be an honor to be ribbed by people like that but I think it needs to be said John Sina is awesome yeah John Sina did things that that no one in the business had done before and you saw the reaction on Tuesday to him coming out. Yeah. People were chanting his name and not chanting Sina sucks.

Well, I mean, to make the parallel, AJ Stiles was like, was working, I mean, was getting as close to a work shoot as he, you know, as he's going to get. He and Sina have had that sort of tension. But to be like, you know, all the stuff he said about, you talk shit about the rock and now you're the rock, whatever, except you're not as good. Like, yeah, I mean, that's blurring that line too. I think that what was most incredible to me about, or most interesting to me about bringing it to the table

were just that the subjects were broached. You were sitting there watching and you're like, oh, this is a fun wrestling round table discussion. Yeah. And then the sidebar was there and you'd be like, wait, they're going to talk about that? They're going to talk about Brett Hart? Yeah, they're like that.

And it's like coming up and you're just like, holy shit, what's going to happen? Yeah. Sure, there's a limit to what they're going to say. But at the same time, like, I don't think, I don't think, I don't think, I don't think JBL in particular, or even Heyman were holding back because of KFA. I mean, I think they were more holding back

because of just, you know, general media, you know, just the way that you have to act when you're on TV. And you're not going to go out and insult your employer. Sure. That's a huge part of that. Well, that's always the tension with WWE, right? They just, with the network, everything is sort of swallowed up in itself.

So you can't, there's a limit to what they're going to do. But just the fact that they've, that they were able to do, do what they did on that show. I mean, I hope to God it comes back. It's one of the most entertaining things that they've done so far. And it's easy. I mean, it's like the cheapest thing possible.

I'm not saying it's easy for what the, yeah, but money in production. I mean, if the network were 75% Legends roundtables, I would be watching more of the network. Absolutely. Those are my favorite things. Yeah, so, I mean, so to do something like this,

which really evokes that, except in a more urgent kind of contemporary way, I think, is really smart for WWE to do. Any way that they can keep us I mean, listen, they went all in on hardcore wrestling fans to keep this network afloat at the expense of maybe some casual fans. And this is the sort of show that we need to keep ourselves interested, you know? Like, I'm going to, I'll watch everything that's on the network. But for the most part, I need a reason to turn it on.

Yeah. You know, just to hop up, just get on Apple TV and go that direction. And whether that's an episode of NXT that, like, I know is going to be good or I'm excited about or whether it's, you know, I'm halfway through breaking ground, you know, season one. and I want them, whatever it is. You know, you just like, you need that thing to get you to turn on the app. Right. And this is a show that could do that for me.

Also, paper views do that when you're, you know. Yeah, of course. You go straight from, you go straight from the, from roadblock to WrestleMania 2 or whatever. Two or three a month now, so we're always watching the network. All right, man. Well, you know, I hope that we evoked some of that just kfei breaking amazingness that bring it at the table did on the show today.

We did our best. I mean, is there anything that we missed? Resso Kingdom, we could obviously... Yeah. I mean, we should talk maybe a little bit about Goldberg, but I think we already hit Goldberg. He comes in, he does his thing. I don't know if his promo was as great as it could have been, but it was fine. I thought Rob was okay.

I thought, yeah, I think Goldberg is... Bill on his podcast this week, I think it was podcast with Cousin Sal this week, Bill Simmons, my boss, was... They were closing the Georgia Dome, and they were trying to figure out what the best... WCW won in Nitro when he beat Hogan. They were trying to figure out the biggest Georgia Dome moments, and he walked into my office yesterday, and he was just like, I think the consensus is that Goldberg beating Hogan

is like up is either number one or in the top three. It was an incredible moment. It was maybe the greatest nitro moment besides Hall coming out of the crowd. Just in terms of satisfaction, the way that they set it up, the delivery of the match. It's funny because we were talking about the biggest, the biggest pop in the Georgia Dome, not wrestling specific. And I was like, it's probably that moment because wrestling has this thing.

The whole crowd is trained as wrestling fans to sort of be expecting the finish and to know, even if you're not 100% sure, like, wrestling fans cheer on cue better than any sport. Because the sport, it's just like, that was a game-winning touchdown, but maybe it's going to get called back. I couldn't see if his feet were in bounds. Like, whatever. It's more of a wave of cheering, you know? Totally.

But yeah, it was, yeah, that moment was just, was just incredible. Yeah. It was a culmination of a year of getting him to that point and Hogan laying down for him. You know, Hogan doesn't lay down for a lot of people. Yeah. Oh, what I was going to say to bring it back around, the whole moment was incredible. But that wasn't like the big pop, right? Because everyone was confused. Yeah, it was like, why is you there? Yeah. Very, very weird. Anyway, farewell to the Georgia Dome and all the wrestling memories that it housed. Yeah. Speaking of Bill Simmons' podcasts, he's got that.

sports movie podcast and I really want them to do no holds barred. Oh. So if he's listening to this for whatever reason, no holds barred sports movie podcast. We got to make that happen. We do a crossover episode or something. It's one of the greatest movies of all time. It is definitely the best movie of all time. I watched some old wrestling movies over the holiday that were very hard to get my hands on

and I think I'm going to have some stuff to talk about those soon. But yeah, I mean, man, wrestling movies are just inherently so weird. I wrote about wrestling documentaries back at Grantland. My buddy Robert Green directed this documentary fake It's So Real, which had a screening out here in L.A. Recently, I mean, even though it's years old. And like wrestling and documentaries go together because it's just sort of pulling back the curtain a little bit.

And that's what we as wrestling fans want to see. But fictional wrestling movies are just on their face. It's insane. Like, why would you do that? Only the wrestler has made it work because it was about the business and the artifice of the business. but if you watch Body Slam or No Holds Bards Bards,

and they're trying to make it seem like it's real, it just never works. As much as I love Dirk Benedict. I don't think Body Slam. I love Dirk Benedict too. And, you know, I'm sure they're, Dean Ambrose, again, I want to apologize to him for spoiling things and breaking the page.

Yeah, sorry. But, yeah, I mean, the documentaries are definitely my way to go. Listen, we've got to get out of here. Hipe for the Royal Rumble. It's in a few weeks, and we'll continue talking about it over the next, you know, several days in coming weeks. And, you know, good job Smackdown.

Polite kudos to Raw. Yeah, golf clap for Raw. And honestly, best wishes for Del Rio and Page. Yeah, please. Get it together. Once again, apologies to Dean Ambrose. Have a good week, humanoids.