The Press Box - Ep. 233: 'The Masked Man Show' on the Undertaker and Shawn Michaels

Episode Date: January 12, 2017

The Ringer's David Shoemaker welcomes Bleacher Report's Dave Schilling to discuss Peter Thiel's Trump-Hogan quote (01:30), the return of the Undertaker and Shawn Michaels on 'Raw' (06:01), Chris Jericho defeating Roman Reigns (17:04), the golden age of Monday-night main events (21:38), the Bullet Club (30:11), and their "SmackDown Stock Watch" (41:14). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. Today's episode of Channel 33 is brought to you by Seekek, the presenting sponsor for my podcast, as well as the only fan-friendly app for buying and selling tickets for sports and music. With just two taps on your phone, you can instantly buy Seekkeek tickets to an event and you can enter that event just using your phone. No paper tickets. Drop your old ticket app. Use one that's built for 2016. Download the free Seatgeek app or go to Seekgeek.com. And now without further ado, here is the Masked Man, David Shoemaker. Welcome to The Mask Man Show. I have a cold. So apologies from my weird voice.

There's a stretch in my life back in my last podcast where I would know I was getting sick because my mom would listen to my podcast and tell me. Are you saying now that your mom doesn't listen to this podcast? She just doesn't comment on my voice as much as she used to. I just thought you were implying that I turned her off so much. He's like, I can't listen to this mass band show. Yeah. She likes Dan St. Germain, and she's a big fan of Steve Kazee, but she doesn't listen to the Dave Schilling episodes.

Totally out. I'm a huge heel in the Shoemaker household. Who knows? Maybe this will be better for my career to have a different voice. All right. We've had a lot of big things happen this week, at least, you know, making the checklist. I think that the biggest thing that happened so far today was when one of my coworkers emailed me, to let me, to just send me a paragraph

quoting Peter Thiel from an article that came out today? Are you ready for this? Yes. I'm springing this on you. Okay. This is a direct quote. People thought the whole Trump thing was fake,

that it wasn't going to go anywhere, that it was the most ridiculous thing imaginable, and then somehow he won, just like Hogan did. And what I wonder is, whether maybe pro wrestling is one of the most real things we have in our society, and what's really disturbing is that the other stuff is much more fake. And whatever the superficialities of Mr. Trump might be, he was more authentic than the other politicians.

He sort of talked in a way like ordinary people taught. It was not sort of this Orwellian newspeak jargon that so many of the candidates use. So he was sort of real. He actually wanted to win. What? Is he implying that the other candidates did not want to win? I think, let's just forget the ending. I went on too long, but I love the idea that pro wrestling is one of the most real things we have in our society.

I mean, I certainly feel that way. We're here talking about it. I don't know if I want professional wrestling to be more real than politics. Maybe he's on to something here, but at the same time, this is a disturbing concept that he's floating into the ether. I wonder if Peter Thiel is a wrestling fan or if during the Hogan suit he just, like, watched a lot of, you know, did his, did his, due diligence and then just came to this kind of philosophical determination. I can sort of see him being friends with McMahon. Like McMahon and Trump obviously are sort of like the pillars of a community of disturbed

individuals. Yeah, no, seriously. I mean, it's got that too. I mean, they've all kind of reached the pinnacle but still hate all of their peers, sort of. Or just, are they're hated by and also hate all of their peers? Huge chip on the shoulder of Vince McMahon. Yeah. Well, that's what makes him so great.

I know. He keeps pushing himself. In case you didn't know, by the way, Peter Thiel is a Silicon Valley entrepreneur who is a confidant of our new president-elect Donald Trump. And the guy who funded the Hulk Hogan lawsuit against Galker. Yeah. There's lots of things going on here. So, yeah. No, I just feel like, I mean, I just feel like I've written those words.

Maybe Peter Thiel's been reading my stuff. I think he's a big mark for the matchman. If Peter, if you're listening to this, you know, I did not vote for Donald Trump, but I would be very very very much. very open to a role in the administration. And if you're listening to this, I could use a couple grand. Just if you got that later. You're just asking for money? Why not take the shot?

Okay. That's fair. Shoot your shot, as they say. Shoot your shot, as they say. A lot of people in WWU have been shooting their shot this week. Is that a euphemism that I'm missing? Well, you're the one that brought it up, man. I'm sorry.

There's a lot of people, it's like every, no one will disagree that the Royal Rumble is just the best thing, right? Absolutely. Best gimmick match of WWE. And just the match, I mean, the experience of the match itself, again, I've written this a million times, but it's like nothing else. I mean, just everything that's good about wrestling is distilled to its perfect form in this match, with the exception of the 40-minute classic. You know, I mean, like anything else you could get hyped for. It's all hype.

I mean, that's what it is. It's the countdown. It's the anticipation. And then it's the either excitement or just complete letdown. Yeah, it's 30 pops. And the entrance pop is one of the best parts of professional wrestling. And you get all of the best ones, some of the worst ones, some of the saddest silences you can ever imagine in your life having the Royal Rumble.

On the flip side is that one of the most tedious things is the lead-up to the Royal Rumble where every wrestler feels the need to announce that they're in the Royal Rumble. Like I'm excited to know that John Sina, well, he's not, right? But I'm excited to know when like a big name says, you know, I'm going to take the night off of my title match or what you would expect me to do and be in the road. That's fine. Yeah.

But when like everybody who picks up a mic over the span of the past two weeks is just like, first of all, I'm going to be in the Royal Rumble. And it's just like, okay. I miss the days when they had to like pull their number out of a hopper and make that a thing. I don't need to hear what you're saying is that promo, which is really just an excuse to fill time, it seems like. Yeah. Speaking of filling time, this is one of my big notes of the week.

If I was ever on Twitter these days, I would have tweeted this and been very proud of it. I think I've discovered the solution to the problem of the three-hour raw. Just have Undertaker come out every week because that takes up about 45 minutes. His entrance just like, I was watching it. I was watching it on DVR and just like I felt like I was fast forwarding. I was fast forwarding for about three minutes to get him to the ring. The biggest thing that's happened this week, or at least the most exciting thing, the number one thing we have to talk about, are that two legends return to Raw. One of them is going to be in the Royal Rumble.

That's The Undertaker. And one of them has a heartwarming, life-affirming movie coming out and super kicked Rusef. And that's Sean Michaels. It's a little bit like two sides of the coin here. I can't imagine being more hyped than I was when the Undertaker came out just to see him in the ring to see him cutting his promos

I mean just to have him back is great Sean Michaels I feel like there's no one I would rather see come out of retirement and wrestle a match but just because of the fact that I don't feel like he's ever going to it's just like everything he does just feel so hammy you know he kind of like brings down the product a little bit

am I crazy to say that? No I mean I think that there's a certain part of Sean Michaels, the character that will forever be linked to 1996. And the sort of the corny, let's put on a show attitude of WWF at the time. So when I do see him and he's kind of like smirking and like jumping around and doing all that stuff, it just feels like the worst kind of throwback. Whereas when Austin comes out, it reminds you of like, oh, I love this guy. I love all this stuff, but Sean Michaels just has that taint of the new generation.

I mean, Sean Michael is the last act of his career when he was sort of, I mean, the last few years were just insane, were so good and was like not silly at all. I guess there was some silly stuff with Triple H or whatever, but like there. Yeah, that DX revival was kind of dumb. But yeah, but all of his, like all the feuds that I remember, I mean, it was like the most earnest, like serious version of Sean Michaels. So when he comes out and does the, I get it. It's like Mick Foley.

You come back, you know, for a one shot and you do a little, you do your like gimmicky jokey stuff. But it's hard when that, then it's like Rusef who like, you know, I just wish they would find a way to really make him vital and you just kind of mix him up with some like, you make the the Rusef cast Inzo feud

even jokier. It's like, yeah, whatever. I guess it's fine. I'm complaining too much. Undertaker's back. That's really great. It is back. I mean, Undertaker is always coming back. He came back in the fall to Smackdown and said he was here to stay. And then was not. No. So First of all, the main takeaway from the past six months is that Undertaker's full of shit.

They retconned his return after two months. Like, what, or three months, whatever it was. And now he's not. He's not on SmackDown. Does he not care about Smackdown? I thought he loves Smackdown. Now he's on Raw. He's obviously not exclusive to one brand.

According to him, he answers to no man. Okay. Except for Vince McMahon at WrestleMania last year when he forced him to wrestle Shane. I'm confused by how they're going to use the Under-Berry. I've heard rumors that it was going to be Sina at WrestleMania for him. Then I heard rumors he was going to win the Royal Rumble and challenge for the title. Now I'm hearing Braun Strowman. And then there's another website saying Undertaker doesn't have a plan for a match yet.

So I just want to know where this is going. I want to know why he's that way. I'm just going to start like a vertical on the ringer that's just that's all me breaking news. And it's just like the headlines will be like update on Undertaker's plans for WrestleMania and in the body text is going to be according to my sources, there's no definitive plans yet because that's always true up until the day. Yeah. Yeah.

I think that, I mean, I still feel like that Sina Undertaker is the way to go. I mean, all of the, if you looked at what the WrestleMania rumors were like two months ago, everything is so sort of like falling into place for that to happen. We'll talk a little bit about what happened on Raw, but the, you know, the main event certainly is pointing us towards the fulfilled. moment of some of the rumors that we've heard. But yeah, I mean, I loved having the Undertaker back. I like, you know, I like Foley being involved.

I like Steph being, and I like it being sort of a big moment, although I could have done without the kind of comical performance review part. I mean, also, but forget about that. And this is the complaint we have all the time. How much better would it have been if they didn't advertise Undertaker's appearance a week in advance or however long it was? and if the show would just open with Stephanie saying to McFoli, like, you better get the Undertaker here tonight or you're fired.

And then you would have spent the whole episode saying like, oh, crap, is the Undertaker going to be here? I had no idea. Like, that's big. Yeah, imagine what the social media response would have been to something that was actually a surprise. And so they do the opposite, which is, let's announce it. It's going to happen.

Tune in next week. And then Stephanie McMahon comes out in K-faves that they don't know if he's going to show on. Exactly. That's the weirdest thing. He's going to show up. You guys advertised it. Yeah, it's very, very strange. Do you think...

I'll take her two returning superstars one at a time. Do you think we'll ever see Sean Michaels wrestle again? No. He doesn't look good. He looks really good for his age. For his age, yeah, but he's just, like, leathery. Yeah. And I don't think that there's any match that he could have

that would top the last matches of his career. Those two Undertaker matches, the Flair match, the Jericho program that he did. I don't see the point other than passing the torch to AJ Stiles. And that's the weird thing. I mean, it's fun. You know, I love it.

I love AJ Stiles. I mean, he's probably the best. You know, obviously one of the top three good performers in WWE last year, you know. I mean, like, I don't think anybody would dispute that. He's probably number, you know, one or two. But the, but there's no, he gets a pass from so many wrestling fans.

The same ones that are saying, you know, don't put the, don't let Brock Lesner in the streak. It should be someone like Daniel Bryan or like AJ Stiles is like almost 40 also. You know, like AJ Styles is not a young guy. I would love to see that match. I would give anything to see peak Sean Michael

or anything approaching, you know, B minus Sean Michaels versus A.J. Stiles. It would be amazing. But yeah, you're right. I mean, the only draw from Michaels would be to put somebody over. Daniel Bryan made a lot of sense in a lot of ways.

But, yeah, I'm not. I don't. I think Sean Michaels at this age means a C minus instead of a B minus. And I don't want to see Sean Michaels do what Rick Flair did, which is work a bunch of bad TV matches, just for the sake of saying that he's still a wrestler. No, no, no, I mean, it would have to be, I honestly think the most likely thing,

and the only way we're going to see him back is, well, I mean, I guess, listen, you can imagine a lot of things, man. If Vince McMahon spent as much, if they spent the, took the money, we're going to spend on Linda's next Senate run and just donated to Sean's church. Would he come back? Just put that in the plate? Yeah, I guess so.

I'm sure that money is the motivating factor for most professional wrestlers as it is for most people. I just don't want to see it. I don't think that it would add to his legacy. Every match that you work after you do a retirement match is a minus from your legacy. I don't abide by those rules, but I'll agree with that. I think, I could imagine it.

I could imagine him coming back for like Triple H's retirement match or something. Like that, like having them go out together, sort of. But I don't think Triple H is ever going to retire, so it doesn't really matter. All right, the Undertaker, how many more matches do you think we have? Well, we always say one or two, and then he works another five years. It's been one or two for, yeah, forever. But now that Tim Duncan is retired, it's the Undertaker who's next. Like, The Undertaker and Tim Duncan are the two greatest athletes of their generation.

And now that Duncan's gone, Undertaker's going to have to follow. But I can see him working one or two matches a year for the next five years. I really do think that that is entirely feasible because it doesn't require a lot of physical exertion for him. He ended up in the hospital not too long ago after one of those matches. But, yeah. But then he has another year to recuperate and then do it again. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you're right.

I mean, it's, you know, Duncan is a very interesting comparison. Actually, I wrote a giant column for Grantland a few years ago, like comparing every NBA star to a wrestler. And that was the first thing that came together. Yeah. In some ways, it's like he's like, the Undertaker's like a shooter. Even though he's a big man, he's a shooter because his skills, like his, the important parts of his skill set don't diminish with age. Right.

Right. I mean, he could just go out there. He's like, you know, Ray Allen, he could just go out there and like hit three-pointers until he's 50 years old. And the older he gets the more he looks like death. It's perfect. He's Benjamin Buttoning professional wrestling. I don't want to, yeah. If we go any further down this path, it's just.

We're getting up saying things we regret. So, yeah, I mean, I feel like the fact that it's not even like a part of the conversation anymore on WWET TV, you know, it's not, now that the streak's gone, like the pressure is off and he's just, he could just wrestle forever. Yeah. That said, you know, it's got to be, it's got to be winding down, especially when, I don't know, I mean, it's just, it's been like we, like you said before. I mean, he showed up on Smackdown and then didn't show up on Smackdown. they retcon the whole thing. And it just seems like there's, you know, there's probably a lot of,

it seems like there's a lot of deliberation going on behind the scenes, you know, like they're making these decisions. Yeah, it's a fluid situation. But yeah, so anyway, I mean, that was, seeing him there was a lot of fun on Monday. I mean, the other big thing that happened on Monday night was the main event.

And again, we've talked about this last time and a million other times. The one really cool thing about Raw was the way that it all tied together. I mean, very, very simple stuff. We start with the cold open or whatever in the office, but then you have the brawl between Rollins and Stroman. That leads to this first match set up for the U.S. title,

which then is disrupted, which, you know, is taking away. And that ends up being the main event. Like the whole show has this thread sort of that ties it together, and that makes it much more watchable. But Jericho, Chris Jericho, runner up for 2016 wrestler of the year, is our new U.S. champion. I'm just glad it's not on Raines You know

It's a waste of a prop As I said last week You need to make use of it And I imagine Once Roman Reigns Becomes our new universal champion Yeah The U.S. title will be a very useful prop

In the Jericho-Owens feud going forward It's funny as great as the Royal Rumble is It is This is I mean this is totally This is totally just like a Mass Man pitch I'll write about this in two weeks

Just watch But it's like it's the greatest night of wrestling but also just like the worst night of wrestling because the title matches, because it's always a setup for disappointment at WrestleMania. Right. You know, which isn't a bad thing. WrestleMania is fucking great.

Like I love WrestleMania. We all do. But it's not for, it's not geared towards us. Right. It's geared towards, you know, more casual fans and younger fans who, you know, have different tastes. It's, I can't wait five hours without using the bathroom apparently.

Yeah. Because I can't. It's the best time to jump in to watch WW programming, but you can start to see how for the last six months, the show has been catered to you and me and people like us and people who listen to the show. Kevin Owens has been the champion. AJ Styles has been the champion.

And now it's very slowly but deliberately moving us in a direction where Roman Raines and John Cena are going to be the champions. Yeah, I guess that's, I mean, listen, I don't want to belabor it because it makes it less fun for me when I'm complaining about those things. But, I mean, on the one hand, Jericho versus Owens for the U.S. title, if that's what we end up getting at WrestleMania, is going to be great. The ride there is going to be fun. You're just got to like, you know, take a step back and not, or maybe take a step forward. And just the more you complain about the fact that the title is not the main event, the less you're going to appreciate it.

It's going to be, it could be really, really great in it. own terms. And the one thing that makes me that makes me feel a little bit more upbeat about it is that on SmackDown, the IC title feud has been, I mean, they've been doing a really good job of making Ms. versus Ambrose feel like the

most important thing on the show, even though it's not for the main title. So I mean, I think there seems to be some philosophy of, you know, mid-card booking that is or just general show booking that is that's taken a shift for the better in the past several months. Well, you know, I think you have done a great job of

explaining the bifurcation of WWE in your writing and that you always say SummerSlam is WrestleMania for the Smart Mark. Yeah. And so you have to think of the year as the regular year, which is for hardcores,

and then about December through April, which is for casual fans to come back, check into the show, get excited that Brock Lesnar Lesnar and The Undertaker and Sean Michaels and people like that are showing up. And the big company pillars, the tent poles of the company, are going to be the ones who

were going to be on top during that time. And you just have to ride the wave, enjoy the parts of the show that you like and not whinge too much about the stuff you don't like because it's just a company that size has to appeal to as many people as possible. Sorry. Yeah. No. And I think that even the, I mean, you know, there have been a lot of resonantias in years

past where there are. There was a lot of angst about whoever, CM Punk or Daniel Brown, I mean, Daniel Brian, you know. The ultimate example of that. Yeah. But like where they weren't booked in the right spot or the fans, I guess, thought.

And yeah, I mean, it's frustrating. Even back to Brett Hart. You know, there was a lot of like, oh, Brett Hart should be the main event in the main event of this and he's not and that kind of thing. It's always going to be that way. It's WrestleMania. Everybody wants to see their favorite on top,

holding the title at the end of the show. It's just not feasible. And I hate to say it, but Roman Raines and John Cino are the, the guys that they want on top. Yeah. And John Cena's great, and Roman Raines looks like a champion. He just might not cut promos like a champion.

Dude, I just, I mean, we can fantasy book WrestleMania forever or whatever. But the, I mean, it's worth pointing out that that U.S. title match on Raw was really great. I mean, I really enjoyed that match, and Roman Raines played a big part in it. Yep. I don't know. I mean, I want to go back, I got to go back through and rewatch a bunch of attitude-era stuff, but I was just watching last night. And I was thinking about this because I did my year-end awards

and was re-watching all these matches. Like this might be the golden age for Monday night main events. You know? I mean, certainly during the attitude era, there was a lot of big moments. There's a lot of shocking turns and like whatever else. But man, we are on a run over the past like six months of just having, I mean, rateable matches

in the main event spot on Monday Night Raw and on Smackdown. We're very spoiled for Work Rate. and I don't think a lot of people are willing to say that because it's not a popular opinion. It's the product sucks and this guy should be the champion or this woman should be the champion. But the TV week to week always has at least one or two good matches, both shows.

Yeah. Three to four star matches. Sometimes five star matches. I would argue that the Falls Can Anywhere women's title match on Raw was a five-star match. Yeah. I mean, part of it is also that, like, we've, I mean, our generation of wrestling fans or our, whatever,

the current wrestling fandom is, went through a long period where work rate in WW was not, was nothing to speak of. Yeah. And we, but that was as the internet was coming up, and accessibility to all these indie wrestling, Japanese wrestling was growing. And so we've sort of, like, trained ourselves to like a certain, to appreciate a certain sort of work rate.

And at WW, it's never going to be there. You know, it's sort of like, if it's just like, the great, I'm trying to think of like a pop culture example. If there was just some like incredible just like roots bluegrass artist that was just like tearing it up in Nashville and everybody thought they were the best, you know, the greatest musician ever and they get signed to a major label and they're just like cranking out, you know, top 20 country songs that are still better than everything else, but they're not what they used to, exactly what they used to play.

Right. It's sort of like that. It's like, you know, like you can appreciate what they're doing for what it is, even though you kind of maybe wish it was a different thing. Yeah, it's just, I think the thing that's missing on WWU programming from week to week is the heat. If you watch the attitude era, the crowds are just frothing at the mouth for everything. From the bottom of the card, the oddities, or the Valvinuses or the godfathers of the world. Don't put Valvinus on the bottom of the card, man.

That's true. He was a solid upper mid-carder for most of his time in WWE, right? Multiple-time Intercontinental Champion Valvinus. But then you go all the way up, and it's just molten, just like, how hot the crowds are, and that's missing. When Seth Rollins comes out, it should be a big moment because he's a big deal, but it's not. It's just a segment on the show. And I don't know whose fault that is.

I don't think it's Seth's fault. But I feel like I rag on Seth Rollins a lot on this show, and I don't mean to. But he's a perfect example of what we're talking about. And our expectations, our hopes for him are greater than what he has been accomplishing on the screen and maybe than what he could ever accomplish, you know? Well, one thing that it really bugged me this week, and it bugs me a lot, but this week especially, is the baby faces have to be sort of super cocky and smirk and be this approximation of the rock in a way that most of them can't do it. So in that Dolph Ziegler-Colisto match, they were rooting for Colisto to crack or get cracked in the head with a chair. And this is a serious Dolf Ziegler moment where he's supposed to be the most dastardly guy in the world.

But I think one thing that a lot of wrestling fans are missing and the reason why they cheer for Dolf Ziegler doing something dastardly or booed Dean Ambrose when he's supposed to be a white meat baby vase is because they want that aggression and that fire and that sort of like true legitimate anger that the Austens of the world provided and that the rock did in his greatest moments.

But then how do you, I totally agree, this is a really smart point. It makes me wonder, though, then how do you turn, like, is the only way to be a heel? I was going to say, how do you turn somebody heel? Is the only way to be a heel in the modern era to be like the Chris Jericho coming back and not speaking for several weeks? I mean, like, I think you're totally right. The problem is, like, Dolf Ziegler, who's been, while having some amazing matches, pretty stale for a number of months, as a baby face,

You turn him heel by putting a chair in his hand. And it's like to make another basketball reference, it was like if heels are, this is not a good one, but like if only heels were allowed to slam dunk the ball, then they wouldn't be heels because everybody would be so good. Like that's what we want to see, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's weird.

You put a chair in his hand, then everybody's like super hyped on him. And also we're so excited that he's turning heel, you know, like you're really hyped about it again. I don't know. I mean, maybe the move is just to have him refused or wrestle, you know, and then he could be a real, like the modern heel, but that's so straight.

Well, it's like when Mick Foley was in ECW and he refused to be hardcore. Yeah. And that's what you love him. That's what you love about him and you take that away. And that was the thing that frustrated me about the Austin heel turn is they never took away the things that we loved about Stone Cold Steve Austin. They didn't take away his entrance music really. I mean, the glass breaking was always part of his entrance music. They didn't take away the middle fingers or the scowl or his outfit.

Everything was the same. and then they put a guitar in his hand and then it started to work. What they have to do, I think, with the Dolph Sigler's of the world is find the thing that is truly detestable about them. Look at the Mizz. The Mizz, by all accounts,

is the nicest guy on the planet. Everything I've heard about. In real life. The real Mizz, Mike Mazzan is that he's a great dude. But they found the things about his personality that are detestable and they cranked it up. Like his face.

Sure. Or just his general demeanor. Just kidding, Mike. And also his entitlement is a huge part of his character. I don't know if that's a part of him or his feelings. Well, you know, you read between the lines. It's about a reality star just walking, waltzing into WWE and being given a screen role. Yeah, and you tell me that I don't work hard enough and all that stuff.

It's real. Find the things about these guys that are real. Seth Rollins, I don't think, is the kind of guy who goes around like making jokes, saying the word sparkle crotch. Maybe I'm wrong, but there's a reason why people aren't connecting to it. Yeah. I mean, I honestly think the move is just let him wear that like sideways black baseball cap and let him talk about CrossFit and he's the greatest heel in the history of wrestling.

Sure. Let him be a badass. Let these guys be badasses. Speaking of badasses, if a badass comes to your house, like Stone Gold Steve Austin, but maybe more appropriately like the Repo Man or Nails or Whalen Mercy. or something. Crush. Listen, you got to get Simply safe.

That's the only way to keep these sorts of characters away from your home. Home security services can be a real rip-off. They lock you into long-term contracts where you're stuck writing huge checks with no way out. Honestly, it's robbery in and of itself, and it can cost you thousands of dollars. But now there's a smarter way to protect your home. With Simply Save Home Security,

built by a Harvard-educated engineer to make you safer, Simply Safe provides security that you can trust. While most alarms rely on a phone line which can be cut easily, you've seen it in the horror movies. Simply Safe is wireless and portable with a cellular connection built in. You get professional monitoring with police dispatch for your home, and so it's safe around the clock. There's no annual contracts, no commitments, no lock-ins, period.

Best of all, with Simply Safe 24-7 protection is just $15 a month. That's less than half of what most. Most places charge. That's reasonable. That seems that I would pay that. So opt for a service you can rely on and protect your home this smart way with SimplySafe. Get more security, more freedom, and more savings. Visit Simplisave.com slash ringer to get 10% off your system today. That's S-I-M-P-L-I-S-A-F-E.com slash ringer. You know who should get Simply safe?

Broken Matt Hardy. People are constantly breaking into his compound. Hey, man, think about it. It's a cell phone. Nothing can be cut now. It's true. This is a brilliant product, Matt. Listen, Matt, I mean, I always say we got to do whole episodes about these just like other promotions and stuff like that.

Although Matt Hardy is... He's a promotion unto himself. He is, man. I mean, they're sort of like, I think that, I think that, you know, I could write a 10,000-word piece about Matt Hardy's post-WBWA career, and it would be one of the most compelling storylines you could possibly imagine. I think that's the thing that going back to what we were talking about before the break, the thing that's missing from a lot of these guys is their freedom to create their own characters. And Matt Hardy is a perfect example of a guy who went out and said,

I'm going to do this weird thing, and I know how to execute it effectively. One of the really cool things that TNA is able to do right now is function sort of like an old territory, where if somebody's working a really cool gimmick on the Indies, they're just like, come do that here. Exactly. You know, or if someone's like real gimmick. is that they just got fired by WWE or they quit. They can just go and run that gimmick basically in TNA. And that's, I mean, I guess this counts of spoilers,

but Cody Rhodes came back to TNA last night. Or a couple of nights ago. I don't know when this popped up. But yeah, I mean. And we're going to bullet club angle, too. He threw up the- He's flashing the bullet club. So he's doing that.

I mean, the bullet club is, I mean, has there ever been a gimmick that's just like so endlessly refreshable? and like it's I mean this is basically like if the late stages NWO was still the coolest thing in wrestling which it was not. Yeah even the Four Horsemen at some point got stale.

You know once they started adding like Steve Mungo McMichael and the NWO popped up and Mungo was weirdly like that. Mongo's weirdly like I mean I never liked him that was a huge issue for me but he was sort of a force of stability in a certain way I mean he was he certainly referenced

the original four horsemen in a way that, like, you know, Dean Malinko never did despite the parallels you could draw. Yeah, or a pelman or a lot of the guys that they added to it sort of to like give them the rub. Yeah, Mongo obviously cared. I mean, the real problem with the Four Horsemen, I don't know why we're, I'm digressing like this. Yeah, I was just about to like put my finger up and say, by the way, we're talking about Steve Mongo McMichael.

The real problem with the Four Horseman gimmick is that what, I mean, Rick Flair was champ, but like, you know, they were much more than the sum of their parts. Right? I mean, Tully Blanchard, Arne Anderson, these guys had long wrestling histories before they got there. But like, Tully Blanchard for Horsemen is a million times more significant than Tully Blanchard. 100%. So once you, and once the horsemen reach a certain level of esteem, the only people they're recruiting are like existing stars like Sting or like Brian Pillman or whoever. What they need to be doing is be recruiting like journeymen, nobodies, and giving them the rub of the four horsemen and making them. them into stars.

Well, that was the genius of evolution. You know, as dire as a lot of those raws were, the idea was really smart. And I think that that's the thing that's missing on WWE programming is the stable. I would love for a stable to pop up on Raw or Smackdown and give the baby faces on there some opposition force to contend with. Yeah, I mean, we sort of have had that with the authority, you know, in its various forms. It's never about wrestling. That's the problem.

It's about power. It's about getting the championship, you know, under wraps or whatever. But it's not about just being the best wrestlers. It's not about being, like, that crew. They had the chance to do it with the club. And I wonder what the rationale was to send Gals and Anderson to Raw, because it obviously has not worked. Well, I mean, they're still there.

I mean, they're feuding for the belt right now. Yeah, but there was just that hot, like, like three or four months of them just kind of getting buried. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think part of it was just kind of figuring out what you can do with. I mean, the answer is obvious to, you know, and the answer seems obvious to you and me, but it's not always obvious. You're right. When you're there, I mean, you know, just the trying the comedy stuff. I think they found the right kind of in-between spot form now.

I think I said that last week. But anyway, is there anything else on Raw that we need to go over? I think that we've, I think that we covered pretty well what was going on Raw. Yeah. Go ahead. Go ahead. Oh, I was going to say McFoly potentially getting fired in K-Fabe and being replaced by Lana, who's talking about how she should be the GM.

And there's some validity to this because McFolley's having hip surgery. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, I totally miss the real-world implications of that. Yeah, so it's possible that we might get someone else. Do you think he was hoping, like, if you have to have surgery, sometimes they'll, like, get you to lose weight and just see if you can do without it. Is that what the haircuts have been?

Like he decided to like, he lost like 45 pounds just by chopping off the main. I don't know what the haircut was, but this week's was a huge improvement over whatever floby haircut he had given himself two weeks ago. Maybe you got a cut on an episode of Holy Foley. Maybe this is, we'll find out later that it was all part of the work. We'll see on season two. You know, I should have mentioned this when we were talking about Cody coming back. I think this is just like probably, everybody's been talking about this.

Chris Hero was back. in NXT. He wrestled a couple weeks ago, or was it just a couple days ago? I don't even know. It was like when I Googled it, it had already happened. But he came back in Chris Hiro Tites, announced as Cassiusono, which was his old NXT name. If I was a betting man, I would say there's no way in hell he's going to actually

be Cassiusono because, you know, the part of the beauty of that was using the initials K.O., which is already taken. If you can't have two guys with the same first name in WWU Logic, you certainly can't have two guys with the same gimmicky initials. And so, I mean, you know, presumably there'll be a lot of opportunity for him to sort of figure out who he's going to be. And it's 2017, he could just be Chris Hero. I mean. It doesn't seem like the trend these days, though, is to carry over the indie gimmicks.

Tommy End is becoming Alistair Black, I believe, is the name that he's using. I love Tommy End. and I don't mind Alastair Black. I think, but I think that just the, even among indie wrestling fans, there's, people are so much less exposed to Tommy Inn than they are to Chris Hero. I mean, Chris Hero could show up on Raw,

or show up at the Royal Rumble or whatever, and it's not going to be the level of, you know, like an AJ Styles. It would not be the level of AJ Styles, but like, Chris Hero comes with like pre-packaged crowd chance and stuff. Right. You know? I mean, like, if there was a,

if there was a Monday Night. raw where like the crowd is chanting Chris Hero ain't none the fuck with like that could be like that would be the greatest moment. Yeah but do you think Vince is sitting around thinking you I really want to figure out a way to get the F word on raw

it's been it's been a huge struggle to get the the word bitch on on TV again listen but this is part of their attitude era revival no one's chanting no one on no one's saying this into a microphone true it's it's just say it was a crowd crowd noise I don't know what they said and they could change it

too. It's just like, you know, like, like, you know, Killstein Kill, but became Fight Owens fight. You know, like it's, there's lots of, you can, you can, you can, you can, got to be cramping it a little bit. Yeah, sure. Anyway, but there was some question about, I mean, heroes, he was definitely, he was definitely signed, man, and I, and I, and I, he's earned it. I mean, he's, like, if, if you've seen him wrestle on the Indies at any point over the past year, you know, that he's, I mean, I know Chris a little bit and he's a wonderful, wonderful dude. I have no idea. I'm so in the dark about how, like, you know, politics backstage really happened.

And I see, like, I don't know everything that happened with him when he was there before. But he's one of those guys that when you meet him, you're just like, oh, I can almost understand how you didn't fit before because you're just like such a wonderful. You're like, you're like, you could be my best friend. And I assume, and like, you know, you just assume it's a different sort of character that succeeds in WWE or something like that in the past. The fact that they have him back is just amazing, man. I'm really excited to see what they do. It seems to me that there's going to be some call-ups, possibly around the Royal Rumble,

because there is an influx of talent coming in, established talent, that can hopefully carry the torch from whoever is leaving. Yeah. So I don't know what you've got planned on that computer, but I want to ask you, who do you think is going to show up at the Royal Rumble? I mean, I think Samoa Joe is a good,

Samoa Joe has the, you know, can get an AJ Styles pop, because he has the legacy and he also now has NXT legacy and all that kind of stuff. I haven't heard a lot of rumors. I mean, I don't know

I mean, who are the people that people are, I mean, who are people talking about? It's mostly Samoa Joe and the revival, of course, because it seems like they've moved on from the tag titles and what else do you do in NXT

if you're not chasing the belt? Yeah, I mean, I don't know that the first time you see the, I think the revival are great. They're not going to get a huge pop at the Rumble, yeah. And I, well, I mean, they deserve.

I just don't know that the first time you want to see them on the main roster ring is surrounded by guys who are a foot and a half taller than them. I mean, let them do the, let them just cut some promos or get in there with Chad Gable or something and, you know, worked their way. Speaking of Smackdown, I mean, well, we'll get to Smackdown a second. Are there any more rumors? I haven't heard anything else other than those two obvious ones. But, I mean, I think it's something that is one of the best times to launch an NXT character is in a moment where they, They don't take a pinfall. They don't have to cut a promo.

They just come out and they announce I'm on the main roster now. Yeah. It's been effective in the past. There's just not a lot of guys. There's not a lot of the wild cards. I mean, there hasn't been that many rumors about who could, about people that could show up from other places or anything. Yeah.

I mean, I guess you could bring back, you know, Drew McIntyre or Galloway or something like that. I mean, there are a couple of people. I would pop for Bad News Barrett, Daniel Brown. Daniel Bryan, by the way, is another guy. Like the way I was describing Chris Hero earlier, it's like when you talk to Daniel Ryan in real life, you're like, how is this personality going to ever work in WW?

Because he speaks in like, these like really like, you know, roundabout sentences and he's like thoughtful about everything and never, never is like trying to work people, at least not overtly. I mean, he's,

that's a genius of his character, is that it was just an extension of who he was. Yeah, yeah. And I think what's most compelling about what's going on right now is that you can see how that kind of personality, Speaking of the personality shift in WWE, both in character and in, you know, whatever's going on backstage, is that they figure out how to make use of Daniel Bryan's real character, a real personality. All right, let's hit on SmackDown before we get out of here.

I want to do a new, this is, you know, we don't always give Smackdown all the time it deserves when it's not a pay-per-view week for them, but let's do the Smackdown Stockwatch. I want to go through the show, everybody that was on the show this week, and you and I can decide, whether or not their stock is going up or going down. Because SmackDown is, they're doing so much great stuff. But, yeah, I'm really interested. Like, every time I see a new pairing, I'm just like, what does this mean for that character?

Because on SmackDown, it's so fluid. You know what I mean? All right, we start off to show, well, we start off to show with the Ambrose Asylum, featuring the Ms. Maurice, but we really started off to show with the video package of the last couple of weeks of the Ms. Ambrose feud, which is one of just the most beautiful video packages

I've seen in a long time. It was just excellently done. And in a pretty short amount of time, this is a feud that I care immensely about. But that said, just to play devil's advocate, Dean Ambrose is now holding the IC belt instead of the world championship. He's not where he once was. Let me start with an easy one. The Miz is stock going up or stock falling?

Definitely up. The Miz, anytime he works with someone who is as adept, as dead. as Dean Ambrose, it's a good thing. He's able to elevate every few that he's been in the last year. I think he's doing great. He's not just playing. He's not just rising the level of his opponents anymore. He's making these feuds work, I mean, to a large extent.

Because we know that Dean Ambrose love him. I mean, God love the guy. He's not, he works up to the level of his opponents a lot. And he comes down to their level when they're not as psyched as they should be. These are two guys with a lot of, I'm sure they've got a lot of motivation to make this really to make this feud awesome. But, yeah, there's a lot on the line for Dean Ambrose, you know, kind of coming down the card a little bit.

He needs to establish himself and his character during this season. And the Miz is then working his way back up to the main event, and this is sort of a stop off before that happens. I want, okay, next week, I don't know if you're going to be sitting in that chair next week, but I'm going to touch base with you because I want to figure this out. When was the last I-C-title feud that you cared about this much? Ms. and Dolf Sigler. No, that's not true.

That's just not true. Roddy Piper and Brett Hart. Yeah, no, I mean, honestly, like, for a, that you cared about, but also that seemed like this big a deal that can hold the, basically carry the show. Yeah, there hasn't been a main event program of this nature with the belt involved in a long, long time. I mean, it's got, I mean, I'm sure there's some Rock Triple H ice, but like there has to be something since. Austin Rock, when he threw the belt in the river. And I'm not just talking about, yeah, like somebody happens to have the ice.

title when they're in the middle of a big feud. Like, it's about the belt, but also about other, anyway. I would say Ambrose's stock is up too because he's working at a hot feud. It doesn't matter where you are on the card if the feud is hot. I totally agree. Dean Ambrose is, he should have, you know, this should have been a step back and by all, you know, by what recent history has told this should have been a big step back. His stock is 100% up.

And I said it last week. If you would ask, you know, I'm not a stickler for like rules. and all that kind of stuff, if you would ask me ahead of time, I would have said formally acknowledging his relationship with Renee Young on screen was a terrible idea, and they're just like, but it's working. They've treated it really well, too,

because it's not like she's coming to the ring with him, or she's talking about it every week, or he's not talking about it at all in his promos. It's just the subtext for a hot angle, and that's all it needs to be. I hope that, like, when now that Stephanie's been doing performance reviews, maybe, like, Shane can come in and, like, actually give them, bring in somebody from HR,

And just like, guys, this is not like, you know, at least when we signed Maurice, we knew she was in a relationship. But like, you know, you guys have been canoodling behind the scenes. We have, we have rules about this kind of stuff. Well, they already sent, who did they send anger management, or sexual harassment training? Oh, uh, Inzo. Yeah, Inzo. So why not have an HR department? Yeah.

It can be Jameson. And if that can, yeah, I mean, it got, it got Jinder Mahal over, so, you know. Did it? I don't know. All right. Next. Calisto, we don't have to spend a lot of time on all these. Calisto stock up or stocked up?

It's stock up because he's on the show. Because he's working to the show. That's solid. That's solid. And he got a good win. Dolph Ziegler? Stock up. I think that he's in the process. This is, I think if you're buying stock, now you better be buying a lot of

Dolph Ziegler stock now because if it's ever going to really go up, I mean, now is the time to buy. Yeah, and a lot of people complained about the loss, but the loss is part of the story. Yeah. Absolutely. Apollo Cruz, also a part of this thing? I mean, down because they still haven't solved a problem with Apollo Cruz. Why is Colisto his friend? I just want that motivation. Sure, they're friends, but, like, it just came out of nowhere.

I'll just say this. I mean, Apollo Cruz, I've been, well, I don't know if I've been wrong about it. I said that he, you know, when I first saw him in the raw ring, he looked right. Like, that was the first time I was sure, including NXT, that he was going to work. And he hasn't worked, you know, fully or even close to it. but man I kind of like the pairing of him and Ziegler like if that's a you know they can work some fantastic matches

I mean that could be a good match of giving some time to do some stuff and they both have a lot to prove and that's what Smackdown's been great about is giving opportunities I'm gonna steal your Colisto answer I mean I think Apollo Cruz his stock is up because he's you know on TV and in a feud with somebody who we care about but that's but it's definitely a holding pattern kind of stock watcher let me change my opinion and say it's a push right now

because we don't know where this is going Yeah. And at least he's not being given a horrible gimmick, because that would be worse if he was, like, doing the fashion police Fandango thing or if he was some sort of, like, racist caricature. That would be way worse than him just not having a character. Yeah. All right.

The next thing that happened was the title match. American Alpha will take them together. Stock up or stocked up? This is another tough one. I think stocked down. I don't think they were ready for the belts. I think that they still need to get over with the crowd and they're basically just props in the Wyatt family breakup angle.

I don't think I can, I agree with every word that you said except Stockdown. I just don't think I can, it feels a little bit harsh. Maybe I'm just, maybe I just like them too much. I think they're neither up nor down right now. But I agree it was a little bit too early. It makes me, I can't, I can't pay attention to this. few to not just be overwhelmed by like the sadness of the Orton versus Wyatt family thing being

a WrestleMania blowout. Like I just wanted to go for a while, you know, I want to see, I would rather see Bray and Randy defend against more important, you know, just be tag team champions for a while. Yeah, this is a stock down for me in the Wyatt family because of exactly what you said. Why do, why blow this off so soon? Yeah, I mean, it's like the, we talk about this sort of thing a lot, but I love Luke Harper. There is no Luke, I mean, I find it hard to imagine a future of Luke Harper that is more compelling than like, than the weight for his push. Like the impending Luke Harper push is much more exciting than the Luke Harper push.

There is the intrigue of which way this goes. Is what you're saying going to happen that Luke Harper is going to be the singles guy that comes out of this? Or is he going to stick around and then they're going to bring back, oh God, the other Eric Rowan thing? Thank you. I almost said Braun-Strauman. They bring back Eric Welland. After Roman Raines is done with him in two months, like that'll be,

Bronz-Roman will be back to Smackdown. And then have Randy B. the Babyface, which is obviously what the crowd wanted in Louisiana this week. Yeah. Speaking of the crowd in Louisiana, Steve Kazee was down there. He's filming a show. And sent me footage of the raw dark match stuff.

I mean, like everything that happened. And it was very, very cool. You know, The Undertaker choke slammed Jericho and Owens. People talked about this. There was footage online. But this is off subject. But I just feel it's very important to say what I said to Steve at the time. Dark Match Kevin Owens is the best Kevin Owens.

100%. If they could, like, you talk about channeling like what people are best at. If they could just get that, get that. I mean, like if you've been to a raw and seen when he's, when they go to commercial, he becomes like 10% better. He's just like jawing with a crime. crowd doing all this funny stuff. That's the,

I'm not saying they should be doing more of that, but there's going to be a point where Owens needs like another gear and he's got it. So anyway, back to Smackdown. So, yeah, we got to wrap this thing up, but like Orton and Wyatt,

I mean, I think Stockdown in general, I think I just don't want to see. Yeah, I mean, I think that we're, you mean, you said everything that needs to be said.

Although, you know, I'm not going to hate this feud when it happens. happens. Like I, like, whatever, but I, but I think that, um, I mean, we got, we could have months of Orton against Harper, then against Wyatt and the handicap matches and, you know, whatever. Yeah, the one thing that I hate doing is lamenting what could have been too much. It is what it is and it's going to be entertaining because I like the guys involved. If I were fantasy booking this, I would go, I would just play it as straight as possible, you know, dissension in the ranks.

We're headed towards a baby face Orton thing. And then, and just totally flip it and have Orton and Harper turn on Bray Wyatt. I would love that. That is 100% where I'm at. That just seems like the most unlikely thing. And Orton and Harper could be a good little, like, duo. They don't have to be a tag team. They could, but they could be a good little running buddies for a while.

Bray Wyatt as an anti-establishment baby face is my dream come true. And also we've had a lot of those feuds over the years of like the dude, like, I'm not feuds. We've had this partnerships, like the unlikely partnerships where like, you know, the wrestler in like the suit and tie we'll have to, we'll teach the crazy wrestler like how to wear a tie and how to like, you know, just the pigmalion stuff. There's those things. That would be great if we had

that with Orton and Luke Harper except instead of making him like fancy, Orton just teaches him how to wear like track pants and t-shirts and like just go to sports bars and stuff. You don't have to wear jeans to the gym, man. Come on. Exactly. It could be really great. Okay, this is

like the women's division did not have a strong showing this week. on Smackdown. I mean, Natalia and Nikki, I totally glossed over. Do you have any stock thoughts on those two? Stock up for both, even though Nikki didn't really sell that knee injury.

That was kind of a bummer, but... This feud is more interesting than I thought it would be. I'm giving a slight stock up to both of them. Yeah, they're doing Yelman's work with this stuff. Carmela stocked down. That was a terrible match with... Thunder Kitty, I believe, is the name of the indie worker. Thunder Kitty needs a contract.

Thunder Kitty was one of the highlights of the show for me. JBL certainly had a good time putting her over or the opposite of putting her over depending on what he was aiming for. Oh, yeah, he was calling her... May Young, Furner Fabulous Mula. He called her Millie Burke, too. That was my... Like, you refer...

Mildred Burke comparison is a weird one just because Mildred Burke. But his... Milder Burke is one of the legends of women's restaurants. There's a great book about her, too, called Queen of the Ring. I think that was Milderberg. But go read that or go read her Wikipedia page. Anyway, she had a tough, tough life and was the, I think, the NWA women's champion for 20 years or something like that. I mean, some incredibly long period of time.

And her husband was sort of like the national booker of women's wrestling and just an utter piece of trash. Which, you know, I'll save that for the Masked Man Show After Hours podcast. But yeah, Thunder Kitty, I feel, we don't need to spend too much time with Thunder Kitty, but like there is definitely a place for a retro women's wrestler on the roster. I loved her look. I just didn't understand why JVL spent the entire match burying her instead of putting over Carmela. But I'm sure Vince probably thought it was really funny and make fun to her. Carmela and James Ellsworth.

How's the stock? I'm down on it right now. I just, Carmelis can't work yet the way that she needs to to pull this off. The finish spot in that match was really dire.

Yeah. Though I can see the skits and bits next week being funny where she takes him on a, like you said, a Pygmalion trip to the store. Yeah, man, that could be great. I mean, Ellsworth, I'm going to say stock up,

even though he's, even though by all accounts, this is a downward turn for him, the fact that he's just like plugging along. He's still on Smackdown. Yeah, really, really great. And then the main event saw John Cena and Baron Corbyn with AJ Stiles in on commentary.

Stock up on all three. Really? Yeah, you didn't like something about that match? I just, you know, like I just don't know. I mean, can you, is Baron Corbyn's stock go up? Like, is there, is there, is he getting better? He didn't look like he was out of place. Sure, he lost the match.

I guess you're right. I guess you're right. This is a really good use of Baron. It's a throwaway Smackdown. And John Cena needs to look strong going to the pay-per-view because he's going against a guy who's beaten him twice. Yeah. Well, listen, I mean, I'm excited about that match.

I mean, the rumble is the big draw. So you think John Cena is going to take it at the rumble? I don't see a reason to do this a third time and then not have the blow off. Yeah, that's probably a good point. Listen, we've got to get out of here. Is there any news that we missed out on that we can just acknowledge the existence of Timothy Well of Well done fame Passed away this week

Which is really sad He well done had the most disturbing ring tights In the history of the WWF tag team division It was a thong They were wearing like cartoon thongs It was like a painted Like it was a thong printed onto the Yeah

And then what was it like a pair of lips That said well done Rough gimmick Yeah but man they made the most of it Or they're Southern Rockers before that Yeah I really did those guys you know A lot of tag teams in that era didn't get used to the kind of top, the best of their ability. Yeah.

Was there any new news that you were talking about before that we need to touch on? I don't think so. Let's not belabor the point here. These people, the humanoids want to go to bed. All right. They've had enough of this. I appreciate it. The Royal Rumble is, the Royal Rumble's coming up.

We'll be back next week with more raw talk. There's only two weeks left to the Rumble, man. I'm starting to really feel the WrestleMania spirit taking over. I know. WrestleMania season. Have a good week, humanoid apologies to Dean Ambrose as always. We'll see you soon.