The Press Box - Ep. 234: Interview With 'Hidden Figures' Director Ted Melfi

Episode Date: January 13, 2017

The Ringer's Sean Fennessey sits down with Ted Melfi to discuss the success of his latest film, 'Hidden Figures' (1:10), and how it came about (3:19), as well as the difficulties of making an entertaining movie about math (8:00). Melfi also shares what it's like working with Taraji P. Henson (18:27) and Kevin Costner (21:15), getting Pharrell to score his movie (29:20), and how he feels about the 'Hidden Fences' mishap (38:45). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. Today's episode of Channel 33 is brought to you by Seekek, the presenting sponsor for my podcast, as well as the only fan-friendly app for buying and selling tickets for sports and music. With just two taps on your phone, you can instantly buy Seekkeek tickets to an event and you can enter that event just using your phone. No paper tickets. Drop your old ticket app. Use one that's built for 2016. Download the free Seatgeek app or go to Seekgeek.com. Hello and welcome to a very special Channel 33 podcast. My name is Sean Fennessey. I'm the editor-in-chief of The Ringer. And over the course of the next few weeks,

we're going to be having some conversations with filmmakers, actors, other people involved in the movie industry and the run-up to award season. Today, I'm really excited to be joined by Ted Melfy, the writer-director of Hidden Figures, a new movie about three women who played an integral role in the first space flight with NASA. Ted, thank you so much for joining me.

Thanks for having me. You got some great news today. You have the number one movie in the country. Where were you when you found this news out? I was driving home from a party last night about midnight. And I got an email from Fox saying the numbers are in. And it looks like we had an amazing Sunday. And that's what happened.

It's pretty incredible. Yeah. Did you have any idea that this would happen? What were you thinking about the prospects of this movie when you first started taking it on? I don't know. you know, I never thought about box office. I mean, I don't think anyone, I don't know if anyone thinks about box office. Maybe some people do.

I never thought about box office. I just thought I wanted to tell a story because I love this story so much. And, you know, the budget was low enough. I thought, oh, maybe it'll be successful. You never can tell. So tell people what the movie is about. You gave me before we started a little bit of a thumbnail, and it sounds like an unlikely number one movie.

Yeah, it's everything you're not supposed to do in the movie. You're not supposed to make a movie with three black leads. And then three female leads on top of it. And then about math and science is like, those are like all things that are traditionally unheard of. But as you see and thank God, I think the country's changing, even though we think it's not. I think the country's changing and growing into the maturity about film.

The story is essentially, you know, essentially the story is about these three incredible black mathematicians, female who are integral in the mercury missions and getting John Glenn in the space and they have been unheralded in the general public but NASA's known about them and honored them for 40 years but these three women Catherine Johnson in particular was the only person that John Glenn trusted to run his numbers on that maiden voyage of the friendship seven so I mean it's a great story no one knows about it and then to think that these three women did it

in the Jim Crow South, in a segregated workspace, with all the racism and sexism, one could heap upon them, and they just barreled through and they were successful. So the movie's based on Margot Lee Shutterly's book, how did that, how did the movie come to you? Were you aware of the book before the movie idea came? No, the book, we got a book proposal. We got Margot's book proposal, which is 55 pages of the outline

of what this novel would be. and Don Jolati, the producer, got a hold of this book proposal somehow and flipped out over it. And then she sent it to UTA at agency here in Los Angeles. And they pitched me on it. And I read a first draft of a script by the script by Alison Schroeder. And I read the book proposal and I just flipped my lid because I couldn't believe it was true, as most people can't believe it was true. And then I just started writing.

So we didn't have the book. I remember when I finished the script in December, We started shooting, we started pre-production in January. We started shooting in March. Margo finishes the novel in like mid-April and sends it to me. Amazing. Halfway through the shoot. So how-

And I'm like, Margo. Did a lot have to change? No, I couldn't. I said, Margo, I'm not even going to read it. Because, like, we're done. I mean, like, I'll just ruin myself if I read it. So I hope it's accurate to the book, but, you know, the outline is very thorough. Her book proposal.

So what did you do then to, how did you dive into this? story. Obviously, NASA is very complex, plus there's a lot of racial and social issues going on. How did you immerse yourself and everything? Research, research, research, really. I first took a trip to NASA. First thing I do was take a trip to NASA. How do you do that? Do you just email at nassah.com? How do you make that connection? Well, Margot Lee Schenderly, her father, this is how Margot found this story. Margo grew up in Hampton, Roads, Virginia. Okay. So Margot's father was a research scientist at NASA.

So Margo ends up going to social events, church, barbecues, and picnics, and these things with these three women. Wow. Catherine Johnson, Dorothy Vaugh and Mary Jackson. And she says, Daddy, who are these women? He said, those are our mathematicians. And she became, like, infested with it and started researching it. So she is very in the in crowd with NASA. It means her dad worked.

So what she did was started calling NASA, and she was our liaison to NASA. So we called her and said, we wanted to tour NASA, and we want to make this into a movie. So she walked us through, she knows everyone at NASA. And so she's been researching this for six years. And so she took us to NASA. We saw all there was to see at NASA. And then we then, and I researched that. I researched with historians.

I got information from NASA's historian, Dr. Bill Barry and Bert Ulrich, brilliant NASA guys from D.C. And then I interviewed Catherine Johnson a few times. It was 98. The time I interviewed her, she was 97, and spent a few sessions with her just digging into everything she remembered and knew and what life was at NASA, what her day-to-day work was in NASA. So I started piecing that together who she was. What was that like talking to her and was she, you know, 55, 60 years later, able to sort of remember the complexity of that moment? Yes, she's sharp as a attack, which I think says something, to be honest with you. Just as a side note, how sharp she is at 98, I think says something to her the brain of a mathematician.

Like literally, like you keep your brain active like that. Forget about it. Anyway. I saw just a few clips of her talking recently, and she's just all there and she just remembers things with specificity. It's pretty much. Yeah, which doesn't really happen in 98. Not at all. There should be some research on this about training your mind with men.

and music, but that's another podcast. Anyway, I had a very different perspective. Because I'd ask her, I'd say, Catherine, what was it like to experience racism and sexism in the workplace? And she looked at me like I was crazy. And said, what? No, I didn't, no, I just put my head down,

did my work, and everyone was so nice to me. And I realized who she is as a person right then and there. She put her head down, did the work and let her work speak for herself and her color vanished and her sex vanished at NASA and she went straight to the top there as a result of what she of her actions and how she lived her life so that's who katherine johnson became for me in the film she has one outburst in the film but other than that she does the work and doesn't talk about it just fights for what she

believes in and does the work uh so after several interviews with with katherine johnson um and dozens of interviews with the NASA historians, we then attacked the math. And I attacked the math with the help of the NASA historians and the math specialist at the Morehouse College, Dr. Rudy Horn. And I really wanted to learn the math, because I thought to myself, if I can't learn the math and fully understand

what the problem was at NASA at the time, A, how am I going to shoot it? And B, how am I going to tell the actors what to do? And the audience won't understand. So I basically took a month to write a scene where Jim Parsons explains what the problem is at NASA. Now, the Atlas rocket, that can push us into orbit, goes up, delivers the capsule into an elliptical orbit. Earth's gravity keeps pulling at it, but it's going so fast, it keeps missing the Earth. It's how it stays in orbit.

Now, getting it back down, that's the math we don't know. Yes, Catherine. So the capsule will spin around the earth forever because there's nothing to slow it down? That's right. Slowing it down at precisely the right moment. By precisely the right amount, that's the task. We bring him in too soon? He burns up on reentry.

That's right. We bring him in too late. He's pushed out of Earth's gravity. And any changes to mass, weight, speed, time, distance, friction, or puff of wind. would alter the go-no-go, and we start our calculations over. Yes. It's interesting because the movie does a really good job

of, I think, maybe not simplifying, but clarifying the actual problems that the characters had, which a lot of times in a movie like this, you kind of breeze past the problem in an effort to just lean into only character, but it really fuses the fact that Catherine Johnson is a brilliant person.

She's working in this environment where her brilliance really needs to kind of be, in order for them to solve their problem. Have you since gotten feedback from mathematicians that say, like, hey, great job. You actually explained what's happening in space? Yeah, I got the highest compliment I think I'll ever get in my life. The NASA historian and the NASA mathematician

and Dr. Rudy Horne said, that scene where Jim Parsons explains the difference between these orbits in layman's terms is the best depiction of what we do and what we did that we've ever seen. ever seen. Yeah, it's a movie that has a lot of emotional highs, but weirdly, arguably the most complicated part of the movie is one of the most emotionally affecting, you know, it's a, pulled off something tricky there. It's tricky. So what was it about specifically the movie that clicked with you? Like, what knocked you out about, you know, Margo Lee Shutterley's treatment?

And why did you take this on? I took it, I was so touched by the fact that these women worked so hard and no one knew a damn thing about it. And I felt to myself, you know, look, as a director, you know, whatever that means, right? As a director, you stand up here or I'm here talking to you, but I'm talking for a thousand people, right? But you'll never know the person who does craft service, and you'll never know the person who grips the movie. And yet one person stands up and gets all this credit, right? And I've always been fascinated with that. You know, it's the reason why, I'm not a saint by any means,

but it's the reason why I never take a film by credit, right? Because to me, it's not a film by me. I have a thousand people who made the film with me. Sure. So I'm always fascinated with the people behind the scenes that actually make something tick. The space race is very complicated. You know, we have parades for John Glenn and the asterisk,

but we don't have a parade for the thousands of technicians and mathematicians and scientists who actually put the rocket and the capsule into space. So that, to me, is a big theme in my life of recognizing the whole. The whole. It's not minimizing the poster child or minimum, but it's also not minimizing the janitor. It's like everyone's an organism working together. So that was the main draw for me. And the second is, you know, I have two daughters.

And to this day, they're told, you know, don't worry about the math. It's 2016, and people are telling them that. And it's like, we have to teach our young girls and our women, you know, you can do anything. They obviously can do anything. They put a man in space. We can do anything. You can do anything. And the gender stuff always drives me nuts.

So it's like two things that happen. There's something very spirited and hopeful about the movie, and obviously this is a very complicated time in society. Like, obviously movies take a long time to make over a course of years. Did you have a sense when you were doing it that, this, was it existing in a different time frame and a different mind frame for you when you were making it where it felt like the world was different somehow and then it just so happens that it's this way or is that just a function of the way things go? I don't know. It's like the classic art imitates life thing. You know, we started the film before one, before, before the first

African American motorist got shot by a cop, right? So we did that. We started the film before the Black Lives Matter. movement. We started the film before Oscar So White. Really? And then all of these things happened as we were shooting or or slightly thereafter we were shooting. And then the opening scene of, in our film is this, these women stuck on the road in a small town and up comes a white cop. Not a great place for three y'all be having car trouble. We didn't pick the place officer. It picked us. You being disrespectful? No, sir. You have a identification on me? Yes, sir. Yes, sir. We're just on our way to work at Langley.

NASA, sir. We do a great deal of the calculating, getting our rockets in the space. All three of you? Yes, sir. Yes, officer. NASA? That's something. I had no idea they hired. There are quite a few women working in the space program. You girls ever meet those astronauts? Mercury 7. Absolutely. Uh, yes. So, we work with those gentlemen all the time. Those boys are the best we got.

I'm sure that. Yeah. We gotta get a man up there for the comedies do. Absolutely. Whole damn country's counting on. That's for certain. Hard being of service is broken down on the side of the road, though. Right, right.

What, y'all need a tow or something? And I didn't realize how powerful it was until we showed it to an audience in Kansas in July. And that audience couldn't do. didn't breathe. And then they started to laugh once they realized that the scene would flip, they let it go. And then

all of a sudden God bless John Glenn passes away. Who could, and we have a tribute to John Glenn at the end of the movie. Done before he had passed away. It's unbelievable. All these things have like collided. And then the Donald Trump's election and the racial divide and the racial and sexist

in the country. I don't know. It's just one of those things that, like, maybe it would have been a very different movie of Hillary Clinton had won the election. Yeah, it's a little bit of a cliche to say this is something that people need right now, but I can totally see why everyone is connecting with it. It makes a lot of sense. Yeah, it's just one of those things that hits a court at a time. It's like, it's like life is about timing. Did you have any misgivings or apprehension about doing a story like this, being who you are and telling the story of women and black women in the 50s and 60s? Yeah, I was, and still am scared to death.

I was scared to death to take it on as a white male, and I was like, what do I have to offer this story? And if I had thought about it long enough, I might not have done it. But I didn't think about it a lot until after, mostly after, when people said, you know, you're white. I've been living with that my whole life. I said, yeah, I don't know. I, hopefully, I one day hope that we don't say black.

film we say film mm-hmm I hope one day we don't say white director or black director we say director like that's where we're heading that's where my my 11-year-old is she watches the movie and goes well I don't understand this I said what I don't understand she goes why would they treat her and it like different you know you have it what's beautiful is you get to have that conversation so no I didn't have I had misgivings after doing it really when I realized oh my God what did I just do. But ultimately a filmmaker is a person who tell stories of humans and more than

anything I pride myself on loving being human myself and loving human humanity myself. So to me it's not a black story. It's not something I couldn't do. You mentioned, you know, Black Lives Matter and some of the things that started to take shape when you guys were shooting. Was that something you guys talked about on set at all? Was there a feeling where you were responding to any of those things or is it just a happenstance for what the, when you were making in this movie. It was all happenstance. It was all serendipity. We never discussed Black Lives Matter. We never discussed Oscar So White. People are discussing it now. And the movie is not reactionary. This movie, people, people like will watch the Oscars or watch Golden Globes

and say, oh, we've whipped the, Hollywood has reacted to the Oscar So White this year. Hollywood has not reacted at anything. Hollywood's the slowest force on the planet. Hollywood's like molasses. Hollywood's been working on these movies for years. Loving has been for years. Birth of a Nation, Nate Parker had been working out for eight years.

Loving and hidden figures and all these things, Moonlight, all these things have been going on. Danzel's been circling fences for how long. So no, I don't think none of it was reactionary. just shifting gears a little bit the movie has a ridiculous cast um this is your not your second feature but your second major studio feature hollywood feature uh how did this how did all these people come to be a part of this how did you cast it yeah um i've been in love with taraji p henson's work since the curious case of benjamin button i just when i watched curious case of benjamin button i said

who is that woman i mean one an actor um and i obviously a lot of people felt the same way because she got an Oscar nomination for that part. So I actually wanted to put her in St. Vincent. I wanted to work with her in St. Vincent. And she was going. That's your first, your last film. Yeah. And she wanted to play the role of Bill Murray's prostitute, right? And I wanted her to play the role of Bill Murray's prostitute. But for a lot of reasons, the studio wouldn't allow me to do that. So her and I had met, we really got along, really liked each other. And when I got this story I called her and I just pitched her over the phone I said Taraji let me just tell you a true story about three women in 1961 who did this extraordinary thing and she flipped out and just on her

phone call she said I'm in and so she just trusted that I'd be able to get the script and I'd be able to write or rewrite the script in it how long ago is this oh this is this is like September, September 15, by September, by December of 15, I had a script done, and by January of 16, we're in pre-productive. By March of 16, we're shooting. Wow. And here we are. It's been lightning. That is very quick. Yeah. Octavia, the same thing. I had met with Octavia. I had a lunch at one point with Octavia, and I just, I'm huge, I mean, Octavia is like the Mariano Rivera of Actress. Like if you want the thing closed down With the same pitch

You call Octavia She's just brilliant every moment It's fully realized And she got an early draft of script And said she wanted to do it So that was that And then Janelle Monet's character Once the studio

Studio was very happy when we got Taraji And Octavia And they were like, okay, you're free to play with Right Two Oscar nominated actresses, the star of a major TV hit drama. Yeah, we feel good. We feel like we're covered

at this budget range to have a success. And so they said, let's play around with Mary and get something fresh. And I said, I'd love to. And Janelle Monet walked in the door and auditioned. And I was just shocked by her. She inhabited the spirit of Mary Jackson. There's this fighter, you know, wild child.

Never holding her tongue was Mary Jackson. That's who Janelle is in real life. Janelle's an activist. Yeah. So those three were set. Kevin Costner came on board. Originally, I was going younger with the role because all of the men at NASA were under 40. But then Kevin Costner's agent called and just pitched me him, and I said, you know what?

I had never thought about A, going older because everyone in the story was younger, but B, a distinguished, like a really distinguished leader. And so I met Kevin and we really hit it off and he had issues with the script. He had issues with his character because it was a mess. His character was a mess. So I made a promise to work on it and him and I worked on it and we got it in shape.

Did working with Bill Murray on your last film in form working with such a heavyweight star? I mean, Kevin Costner is obviously a very iconic American actor who will come with notes and have a lot of point of view. You know, was there any correlation between those two things, or was this totally different? Some correlations and some completely different.

Nothing compares to Bill Murray. I mean, Bill Murray is the most amazing human being, to me, he only lives in the present moment, which pushes and forces everyone else to live in the present moment, or you're not going to be with them. You're not going to get it. And so, Kevin's a planner. Kevin, although he lives in the present moment with his work, he's meticulous to this amazing point to watching work. He pulls out a piece of chewing gum on the exact word of a line every time. Interesting.

And Bill is a free, pure freedom. Kevin's a scientist. As a writer, how do you handle the ego of that where you have crafted something and then somebody who's a performer really wants to get into the nitty-gritty of it and break it down? and build it back up? You just got to let people have their process. I mean, you don't, to me, you wouldn't, why would you, why would you cast Bill Murray and Kevin Costner and Taraji Henson and Davey Spencer

and then tell them exactly, and then paint by number of them? Why would you, that's not the point of acting. Was there any concern with maybe changing history in a way that got too far away from what it actually happened? Well, yeah. You know, you're trying to, you're telling, to you're telling us an iconic story about the mercury missions everyone knows the mercury

missions everyone knows you know friendship seven john glens maiden voyage everyone knows these things yet no one knows the three women so you have to but i do and so i know the three women and the books out and i've spent time with them um and i know them so i have that responsibility to tell their story as they as they were and the responsibility to nassah yet you have to make a movie You're not making a documentary. So the last third of the script and the subsequent movie is verbatim NASA transcripts, literally. Almost every line said by anyone in the command center or in the capsule or John Glenn is verbatim. I'm going to be honest with you, Al.

When I fly, I fly the machine. Right now seems like this machine's flying me. We're on the same page, John. Our guys are on it. Let's get the girl to check the numbers. The girl. Yes, sir. You mean Catherine?

Yes, sir. A smart one. I mean, she says they're good. I'm ready to go. John Glenn said, get the girl to run the numbers. If she says they're good, I'm good to go. An exact quote. People don't know this.

Here's where it gets, here's where you deviate. Yes, he said that. But it took her three days to do that. It took her three days to do that math. Okay. Right? Yep. Right, right? So we made it in 30 seconds. Right. Right. But you have to, right? I don't think anyone look at it and go, oh, that's bull. Right. You go, yes, that's how you make a movie of it. The spirit is still accurate, totally to what happened. So those are the things you have to deviate from. Did you worry about, like, maintaining tension in a movie like this where, you know, the third act is so important. It's all about basically this mission that you're building towards, but it's an extremely famous somewhat recent history moment where people, we know that John Glenn, who just passed away.

survived and succeeded and, you know, how do you keep the tension inside the story when that's happening? Well, number one is you do your best to have the audience so invested in the characters themselves that it doesn't matter. They displace their knowledge and they don't care because they're watching the event happen through the eyes of Catherine Johnson and Al Harrison and Dorothy Yvonne and Mary J. They're watching that story unfold for them. So they almost, once you can get them to immerse themselves in it, they, for the briefest moment, forget or choose to forget what really happened to John Glenn.

What's fascinating is, I screened this movie all over the country. When I screen this movie, I screened it for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of high schoolers who don't know that John Glenn may have, who erupt in cheers when he's safe. and you just smile and go, you know what, you're making a movie for everyone.

You're not just making the movie for the 40-year-olds who remember or the 60-year-olds who lived it. You're making the movie for the 15-year-old who doesn't know shit about John Glenn and that he got home safely. Like, they don't. And so they'll hear them cheer and clap

when John Glenn comes out of that cloud is great. So, I mean, you keep the tension by having people invest in the character and then you don't, you have to at some point say, I don't care that everyone knows it. What was the thinking with screening the movie around the country? How did that work? Why were you doing that? We tested three times. We tested, I guess I could say

this now because it's out. You're a hit. Yeah. We tested in Los Angeles for the first time, and it was about 60-40, 60% black, 40% white. Okay. And we got a 92, which is through the roof, right? So for those of you don't know, it's just like a grading system, one to a hundred. A 92 for a movie like this is phenomenal. So I say, okay, we want to test it again, but we want to test it with a more black audience just to see. And I said, okay. So we tested it down at the Howard Hughes Center,

those theaters down there by the airport, with about an 80% black audience, 20% white or other. It got a 97. Okay. So then they were like, okay, well, make a bunch of changes. And I said, no, no, I go, let's not make changes yet.

I go, let's test it in Kansas. And they were like, what? Without changes? I said, let's test this exact cut in Kansas right before the election. Really? And they said, okay, and they didn't let me, they allowed me not to make any changes to the film. We go to Kansas and we screen the movie for an 80% white audience, 20% other. it scores in 96.

And every other category was higher than the actual LA screen. And I was like, that's what, do you see? It's colorless. It's an American story. And that's when we locked picture. Did you know that that was going to be the case? Or were you a little nervous when you were showing in Kansas? I had a gut feeling.

I had a gut feeling because I don't see the color of it. I just see the movie of it. I had a gut feeling that a movie goer sees a movie. A movie goer doesn't go, oh, let's go see this black movie. Right. They go, let's go see that movie. You know, we have created that.

It doesn't exist in most people's minds. There's one other thing about the movie that makes it stand out in a big way, which is that you have a score and original songs from Farrell. You basically have an original Farrell album living inside of your movie. How did that happen? How did you make it work? That's a wild story. Ferell heard about the story from his producing partner, Mimi Valdez. They had a meeting with Donna Joladi.

And Donna pitched Mimi this idea, and she flipped out and told Forel. Forel grew up in Hampton Roads, Virginia, 20 minutes from Nassau Langley. And he's a spaceman, and he flipped out and said, I want to be a part, I have to be a part. So I then met him, and we hid it off. He said, what do you want out of the music? And I said, I want music. I go, I can't even tell you.

I go, first of all, but I can tell you this. I want music that harkens back to the 1960s, that you listen to and totally go, that feels like the 1960s. I go, but that's completely modern. And he goes, I got just a thing. He had been working on something already. and I was shocked. He sent me a couple tracks, and I was like,

dude, I don't know how you know, but that's it. And then he read the script, and he wrote two songs right after reading the script. He said, Catherine Johnson really had to run to the bathroom. I said, yeah, you know, the bathroom was in a different building. She was in segregated NASA at the time. And he wrote running, like, in a week.

And that was his love letter to her running to that bathroom. And then he wrote, I see a victory. And so he just started cranking out music. He then says, who do you like as a composer? You have any composers in mind? I say, no. He goes, how about Hans Zimmer? And I go, well, I guess.

Do you know him? I said, I guess that'll work. And so he approached Hans. Hans fell in love with the movie. So the movie, Hans watched the movie four times before even, he just kept coming and watching and watching it. And he brought Ben Wallfish, who was one of his protege. and then what it did was it created this fusion,

classic Hans-Ban Euro music, classic music, classically composed, mixed with Farrell, which is everything that's happening in the future, if you ask me. Ferrell's in the future. He's not here today. He's in the future. And you put those two together in that soundtrack.

I'm in love of it. It's incredible. You really pull off something amazing. which is that those songs live inside the movie, even in specific scenes where they're essentially the jukebox two characters dancing. And it doesn't feel anachronistic. It doesn't feel strange. It's him doing Jackie Wilson or Stevie Wonder or something like. It actually works. It's kind of an incredible thing. But if you listen to it just on iTunes, it just sounds like a good Farrell record. It's quite an accomplishment. So I just want to talk a little bit about some other things in your career. You've had a cool and interesting career. and I know that when St. Vincent came out,

there was a lot of overnight success, where did this guy come from kind of conversation. And now, obviously, you are on your second big film. And, you know, I'm curious, like, what that was like for you after St. Vincent and what you thought about what you would do next. And, you know, did you know what, were you trying to be a specific kind of filmmaker? Did you always want to be a writer-director on your next project? And now that you've had this, how do you look forward to the next things you're going to do?

I've never thought of myself as anything but a worker and that's what I ultimately am is a worker I love making movies and I love writing so those are things I will always do if I'm if I'm allowed to do them after St. Vincent you know I've made nine movies I mean people people go way you know the same thing as the overnight success at 20-year overnight success I've made nine movies at every level. I've made $50,000 movies. I've made $1.2 million movies. I've written some of them. I've directed one of them. I've produced all of them. I've always had my hands in creating media and entertainment because this is what I just, I'd love to do. I never, I've always been a writer first and foremost. I mean, I've been writing since I was, I wrote my,

started writing my dad's newspaper at the age of eight. I had my own column. And I've been writing my whole life. So I never thought of anything. What was the name of your dad's newspaper? Middle Americans news. Wow. Okay. And I was writing for, you know... This was in New York? Yeah, Brooklyn. Okay. I wrote for years and years and years and years. And I just always thought, I want to write. I want my life. If I could write something, that would be great. So I never, like, look at anything and say, I'm a writer director or I only want a writer direct my own things. I'm open to like, to like whatever happens. Saint-Fince, everything I do, though I want to have some sort of, not to be utopian about it, but some sort of social relevance.

You know, something, I think what's missing in movies today is we, a lot of times under the pressure of being commerce, we're losing the moral of the story. Just very simple. And, you know, in high school, when we were in high school, they always say, what's the moral in junior high, what's the moral of the story? Right. And you study all those classic, classic fables. There was always a moral of the story. It doesn't have to be heavy-handed. It's just what is the author telling you? What's he trying to convey? So that's what St. Vincent was. You know, you know, here's a guy who's flawed saying everyone to say, everyone has value. Everyone has value. And that was the core of it. It's kind of the same core as in hidden figures as everyone

has a value and don't overlook it. What's it been like for you to try to do that inside the studio system? I feel like that's not always very valued. they so desperately want it. Really? Yeah, they're always asking for it. And for some reason, they can't, a lot of times they can't find it. But I think they, every time I'm in a meeting, every time I'm, I rewrite a lot of scripts, they're always like, can you infuse some heart into it, can you find a, and that's what they're saying, is how do we, how do we get the moral of the story back in?

Sure. In a way that's commercial and acceptable, but moves people. I think they desperately want it. want it. I mean, everything, look at movies like Jungle Book. They're infusing, John did Fever did such a brilliant job with Jungle Book that you were able to be entertained, yet have a moral to the story. Do you want to do movies on that kind of scale? I would do anything on any scale. I'm very happy at $25 million and under because I'm very happy there because I just believe that movies are too expensive. And any movie you make that can feed a nation,

you should think about. That's a good point. You should kind of think about it. If you're making a $250 million movie and that would give rice to Sudan for a decade, you got to kind of, I don't know, you better be saying something good.

Yeah, that makes sense. You said just before you sat down here that you got a couple of interesting voicemails. I'm wondering what those very interesting people said to you. Yeah, I got an interesting voicemail from Alan Arkin, who I became friends with, and he saw Hidden Figures and left me this most beautiful message about, he said, Ted, I've been crying, and my wife was crying, and I actually had to take a break and pause the movie to cry for a few minutes before I could restart it.

I'm so touched and inspired by this movie, and I just, he was just, you know, it was just the most beautiful message you could get from someone. And then this morning I had this message from Dustin Hoffman, who I became friends with also on going his style, even though he didn't end up being in the film, saying it's so extraordinary and he wants to talk to me about it. I've got to call him back. But anyway, when you're heroes in life, your acting heroes in life call you, it's just so humbling. I don't know.

It's Dustin Hoffman. Yeah. Do you feel like your life significantly after this success has changed? in a big way or? I still live in Van Nuys and my mortgage is still $1,054. That's good. People go, are you ever going to, I have a little two-bedroom house, one bedroom, one bathroom, and Kim, my wife, who co-produced the movie with me is always like,

are we going to get a bigger house? And I go, I really don't think so. So we splurge last year. We put a pool in, but that's about, you know, I don't know. I read that you're still a drinker at the Elks Lodge because I got $2 beers. I still go to the Elks Lodge. I got $2 beers. I don't know.

I'm in the trench. Everyone's the same. I don't want the problems that come with a $7,000 a month mortgage. I'm going to ask you about Hidden Fences right now. Hidden Fences. What was your reaction to the handful of flubs of the titles and maybe what some of that confusion means? In case you didn't know, hidden figures and fences

are two entirely different movies featuring African-American leads that both received multiple nominations. But shh, don't tell that to. red carpet reporter Jenna Bush Hager. So you're nominated for Hidden Votis. How cool is it? I think Twitter is the funniest place on the planet. Twitter started tweeting all these

mashup, 12 years of Butler, the color precious. And you're like, if you want to get hammered, you fuck with the Beehive or Taraji's group. I don't know. You know,

people make mistakes. People make mistakes. At the end of the day, what's her, Tannen Bush, right? The end of the day, Jenna Bush, you know,

look, if anyone who's been on the red carpet, it's a freaking mess. Yeah. It's a mess and it's insane and you can't hear anything and your brain is,

you know, fried. She made an honest mistake. In my mind, I mean, okay, so people in Twitterverse say it's subliminal or it's uncount.

It's the same, here's what I've heard. It's the same bias displayed in the movie. Who, come on. I mean, maybe, maybe not, but ultimately she apologized and was so, she almost cried today

on the, on the, on the morning news. And then Michael Keaton gets up there. That might have been a subconscious repetition of... Yeah, all I, look, look, he wears glasses,

so he's probably trying to read a teleprompter and, look, If the teleprompter say hidden fences, we've got a big fucking problem. Let's just say that. If the teleprompter with the Golden Globe says hidden fences, we've got a fucking big problem. But I don't think so. I think people just made an honest mistake and Twitter just jumped on it.

And we'll take the free advertising. I don't think anybody else is making the mistake. Thank you for sitting down and chatting with me. Congratulations on the movie. I recommend everyone go see it. It's fantastic. Thanks for having me. Cool.

Thanks, Ted. Take care.