The Press Box - Ep. 260: Arsenal, Barcelona, and Club Identity With Jordan Morris

Episode Date: February 16, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Ryan and Ryan O'Hanlon discuss Arsenal–Bayern Munich (5:00), Barcelona-PSG (13:00), and the concept of club identity in the sport (20:00). Then, USMNT member and Seattle Sounders forward Jordan Morris joins (30:00) to give thoughts on the role of college development on the pitch (34:00), break down what a manager actually does during a game (38:00), and discuss how he watches soccer as a fan (42:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Welcome to SoccerPod. My name is Chris Ryan. I'm an editor at Thringer.com. I am joined by Ryan O'Hanlon. Ryan, say hi. Hi. What's up, man?

We are, they're recording this on Wednesday. It's probably up on Thursday. We are just hours away. We're just hours past. A very significant defeat for Arsenal. And in the Champions League, and in the Champions League, and a very significant defeat from Barcelona on Tuesday.

So we kind of want to be. I wanted to talk about the Champions League by way of talking about Arsenal and Barcelona. The fall of London, part 17, fall of Barcelona, part one. Yeah. Well, so these two teams have had a lot in common over the years. Of course, I think it was 2005 or six. They had the incredible championship championship final, Russell Campbell. Got Rick Hard in, 2006.

2006 and Arsenal lost. God, that was a great Champions League. That was the one where Arsenal beat Villa Rao with Raquel May, right? and you know they've played against one another multiple times over the last few years some famous in slash infamous matches including Robin Van Percy getting tossed for delay of game

which was one of my all-time favorite what the hell is happening moments but these teams both coming into the Champions League lots of proof Arsenal is in second two games Real Madrid had two games in hand Barcelona is behind them in second place

and not a lot of people seem to think that they're going to catch Ray on Madrid. Arsenal pretty much ended their what was really only like a little small title hope against Chelsea over the weekend. And I think both teams were looking for redemption in the Champions League. Both

teams had challenges but some say this is a weaker bi-immunate team. PSG has repeatedly kind of tripped up in the Champions League so the chance for redemption was there. and these teams basically got knocked out in the first round of their ties

in the first leg of their ties but what we wanted to talk about was this idea of team identity I'm gonna let Ryan speak in a second I'm not trying to be like Joe Rogan here for you know I'm sorry Is that making me Alex Jones? You are

you're the invoked we wanted to talk about was this idea of identity because this is like a very important idea to both clubs and in one hand for Arsenal that identity has been for the most part for basically all of our soccer

watching our lives right it's been defined by Arson Venger. Yeah. And I think if you had to put a bet down now, this is probably going to be Venger's last season. Yeah. I mean, the league is, they're not going to win the league.

I mean, they might not finish in the top four. I don't think they will. I mean, they're currently in it, but nothing we saw today suggests that they have the potential to compete with the best teams in the Premier League or nothing that they have shown. And, you know, there's been Ian Wright, and I think last week said that he thought

after a conversation with Vinger that he was going to call it quits after this season. Venger's out of contract at the end of the season. There was talk earlier in the season that he was going to sign a two-year deal to stay with the club. And during this sort of, there was a couple weeks there where Mesozo and Alexis Sanchez's contracts,

they were both winding down. And they were talking about doing extensions. And at least Ozel said that him resigning with Arsenal was dependent on Venger. So it kind of felt like there was a degree of momentum behind Venger staying and that's completely

dissolved over the last couple of weeks and especially in Venger's press conference after the Bayern Munich game it only lasted two minutes and 55 seconds or something which is apparently not like Venger at all who's relatively affable with the media and he said that the team mentally collapsed against

Bayern Munich and you could definitely see that I mean look you come out of there with like you lose 2-1 even 3-1 you can have like hopes that if you turn on the jets you could tie have to, you know, tie things up at home. And instead, 5-1, you might as well send a youth team out there. It's done.

And I mean, it's, you know, it's, it's, we've sort of, we basically have seen this every year in a lot of ways. They've lost the away leg in the round of 16, I think, by two goals every year for the past half decade, if not more. But it's just, you know, I get, Bayern Munich is just a better team. than Arsenal. Like, look at the players that were on the field. The players on Byron, the players on Byron's bench would all start for Arsenal, obviously.

But, like, they're not this, they shouldn't be this much better. Well, it doesn't even, this is the part that makes this sport interesting is that, sure, they are better. And we have seen over the years with the amount of money that's poured into the game that there is still chances for, you know, Atlago Madrid's and Lesters and Brousia Dormis and and Bruchard Dormons and teams there might be under man to, or where the talent hasn't quite evolved, to do something against quote-unquote better teams, more talented teams.

The thing that you will see if you watch this game, if you haven't seen it already, if you watch the highlights or if you watch a replay of it, is that Arsenal looked like they had no business being in the gym. Like they look flat-footed, bored, slow. And frankly, I don't even know what their plan was, because at first it seemed like they had immediately gone into siege mentality. Like they were all backing up, and then Robin does exactly what any defensive report about what to do against Robin tells you that he's going to go in on his foot.

Go cut inside and then let one go. And he just does it. Well, that's the thing. It's like Robin could, he could conceivably dribble by you also on the outside. Sure. But on that goal, there's six arsenal players around him, and there should be at least one arsenal. guy cutting off his channel to the inside and forcing him to these other defenders. And they're all just standing there, watching him cut it in.

And it's like three touches to calibrate like the shot that he's, that's the, that's his shot. That's what he does. And that is that preparation? Is that the player's mental failing? I mean, it's happened enough times that it's like, feels like it's a preparation thing. I think that Venger probably creates a environment that is like enjoyable to work in. And I think that he has really a wonderful idea of how the game should be played.

Yeah. But I can't remember the last time since that game, we're out of necessity. He played basically two defensive midfielder against Man City. It was like two seasons. It was like basically the first real big Cochland game. It's 2015. And I was just like, oh, that was like what a great move by Venger. And we have Jordan Morris from the USMNT and Seattle Sanders on this show later on.

And we asked him a bunch of questions about like, What do managers actually do to change the games? What do managers? And he kind of alludes to the idea that a lot of it happens in preparation. A lot of it happens in the training. And on the game day, it's really up to the players. So in that sense, the fact that all those guys looked like they had no chance of beating this team, much less drawing them, we're keeping it close. That's on them.

But the fact that he never really says, like, this is the thing we're going to do. I'm going to find the weakness in Byron Munich, and I'm going to exploit it. We're going to go after this fullback. We're going to set up a defensive wall. I'm going to play like five centerbacks. Just like, do something different. Well, yeah, exactly. You brought up Athletic Madrid.

It's like you watch them play. I mean, some of their players are incredible, but they're not as talented as these other teams, but there's always a plan to frustrate whatever specific team they're playing. And it's just like Arsenal's ethos is still like at its core. Like, I want my play. to enjoy their football.

That's the quote. And that is fine when you're playing against like Rosenborg from Norway or Hull in the Premier League. But like when you're playing a team that can play on the ground better than you and is more athletic and has better players, you have to change the way you play. And I don't know what the number is exactly, but it's over. they've gone more than 20 games against the Premier League top six like away games without a win and that's just like that's not a coincidence

at this point it's like against a good a great team on the road they have no fucking clue what they're doing and it's like if you're not going to go after Bayern Munich like terriers which that's your decision not to if you don't want to like press the hell out of them and hound them down if you think you're going to get picked apart

that's fine but then you're like you basically have to have immaculate organization and defend in blocks of four Like, I'm not even a tactical genius. I'm just saying, like, I could recognize that the lines that they were making were awful. They were getting outplayed by, for balls in the box. There's a couple of goals in the end there were Arturo Vidal basically held off like four arsenal to bet players to set up Alcantara. It was just absurd.

And what I don't understand is when you are a team that's like, you are there have a good shot at making fourth. Like there should not be anything on their horizon. There should not be anything that's like, what else are you doing? Play your ass off. Yeah, it's like you're not, a team of Arsenal's like qualities shouldn't lose a game like this. Yeah. Four goals. You know what I mean?

Like it just, you can sort of limit a game enough for that not to happen if that makes any sense. But it's like there was no strategy. It's like Byron had over what, 75% percent. possession, something insane. They completed like 500 more passes than Arsenal at like a 90% clip. So Arsenal, and they created a ton of great chances. But that sounds like Arsenal is not trying. Yeah, there's a world where you give up a ton of possession, but you limit the good chances.

Or there's a world where you allow a lot of passes, but you also break up a ton of passes because you're pressing the hell out of the other team. And they didn't do any of that. It was just that we're just on the field, basically. So the idea is, what I'm talking about here is this idea where, here's my basic, like, my premise. Okay. Is that they move out of Highbury, they move into Emirates, Cronky buys the team. There's a lot of discussion around, like, infusions of money, whether or not Cronky is really financially committed to Arsenal.

I think they made some really good buys, but they're usually like the guy at the, who's not getting regularly into. Texas was regularly getting into the Barcelona aside and Ozo was having trouble

maintaining his place based in Rio Madrid. They were really smart buys. They were like if they were going to do it

these year would be like buying Hamas or something like that. But what happens is they've got these guys.

It's a good team. It's definitely like a really good team. But the identity of the club is still Venger. It's always been it's been Venger for

20 years. Everybody who identifies themselves as Arsenal fans that I know does it in relationship to whether they want Venger to stay or leave,

but the reason they probably love Arsenal, especially for people of our age group, it's because of him and because of the soccer that he had them play. Yeah. So I understand why moving on from him is very difficult. I don't know if Arsenal managed by Diego Simioni next year or Thomas Tuchel next year is the same.

It feels the same. But that is something you've got to get used to. You've got to come to grips with that because otherwise you're looking at like fading away. Yeah, and it's, you mentioned identity. at the beginning of this, and their issue, it seems, is they're trying to cling to an identity that doesn't really have a place

in soccer today, but also doesn't have like, it's a premise of an identity backed without any execution of that identity, if that makes any sense. It's like you wanna play good soccer. And like, you bring in players that can do that. And it's stubborn because you can see over and over and over again, whether it's him saying, well,

I could have bought Angola Conte years ago. or I could have had Dragba or there's no value in this market or our goalkeeping situation is fine or we don't need a central defensive midfielder or whatever it is. It's like I don't see a ton of kids other than a woeby coming through. I don't see a lot of I don't, I'm flabbergasted as to why Ospina is playing over check. I mean, it's like I guess is Ospina like a better shot stopper? What was the logic behind that? He just gets the European competition?

Yeah, I think that's the situation. So I don't know. I mean, I just, I, I just, I. I have a feeling what will happen is they'll go out of the Champions League and then they will comfortably land in the top four out of like, that just seems like what happens. Yeah. But I think that if your Arsenal,

you have to really, really seriously consider moving on. And I think, you know, there are these cycles where certain managers are available and certain managers, you know, and I don't know who would fall into the acceptable for Arsenal fans. Like,

I don't know if trying to entice Ancelotti or, you know, It was something like the, or the Natholi manager, or do you want to go out and try and get an Allegory from Juventus? Is he at Juventus now? Yeah. Yeah. The thing, though, that is hard about this is that, like, the Premier League is great right now. It's so good, the top six teams.

And it's not, no matter how good you are as a manager, it's not easy in your first season. And Arsenal, does Arsenal have the kind of players to make a Diego Semione system work? Can you picture him doing that with Arsenal in his first year? So it's like, I wonder, it's sort of the question. We've seen it. It happened at Manu. It happened at Liverpool. Like, there is a chance that they like, there's a big drop-off in their first year without Venger.

As crazy as it sounds, like, that we're saying they need to move on. But in so far as moving on, you might have to accept some regression in the immediate future. Basically, you'd have to accept taking a couple of steps back to take a step forward. But I wonder if you take those steps back to the other teams and just consolidate themselves above you. It's a really big club. I would like to think, I personally really enjoy Arsenal. Like, I like the team, and I root for them. I wish something that would happen.

But, you know, I'm obviously like a Liverpool fan, but, like, I just, I've always enjoyed them. Yeah. And I don't know. So we're talking about Arsenal's identity being wrapped up in this manager. Barcelona only lost 4-0 to PSG in Paris on Tuesday. And it was, if the scoreline wasn't bad enough, if you read the Sid Lopes and the Guardian, it's pretty much an obituary. So you've got Buscats basically saying like the manager sent us out there to lose. Not, he didn't, that's not an exact quote, but he was more or less saying that the problem with him,

performance was tactics. Yeah, which is the manager decides. There's a particular, there's a specific messy situation, like play where he loses the ball, and instead of tracking back or counter, you know, going after it to press back, he just kind of stands there and is just like shit. And I think PSG scores on a counter on that play. Eiesta, one of the most beautiful players I've ever seen my life, getting a little older. The identity of the team has always been this.

ideal version of possession unified team football that relies in short passing and that is like a you know an extension of total football from the Dutch and is tiki-taka and like going back and it obviously peaked with Gardiola they were

frigging incredible a couple years ago when they went to trouble I mean they were great last year too they were great last year so it's hard because it's like unlike Arsenal where you can like say like well there's a lot of dust on the last Premier Premier League trophy

Barcelona was amazing as of last year but things happened really fast there and it does sound like Enrique's out soon and it's this interesting thing where a team has to play up to its own standards and its own self-created identity and obviously despite having three of the four best attacking players in the world

on their front line that's not happening for Barcelona right now. Yeah I think the like this ideal for how the team should play runs like super, super deep throughout like the institutions of the city and like the politics and the philosophy and the morality of the city. And it's like they a couple years ago, you know, they got blown off the field against Real Madrid and they were kind of wandering.

Wandering meaning they're finishing in second and, you know, making it to the final eight in the champions like every year, but not doing what a team like they are supposed to. And then they bring Luis Enrique in, and he changed the way they played. He realized, hey, we have Messi, Suarez, and Namar. They can basically attack on their own. So do we need to, like, possess the ball the entire game?

Like, why don't we defend, like, a little more conservatively and then get the ball up to them as quickly as we can, and they're just going to, they're going to score. Like, that's, it's simple, but it's like that makes sense, but it, I think a lot of people in Barcelona were like upset that he played that way and begrudgingly accepted that that turned them into the best team in the world. I think also even it's,

I guess what I'm saying is that the team that won two years ago, that's like arguably the best team I've ever seen. Yeah. Because they could play so many different ways and they were just never vulnerable, like in a way that the other Barcelona team sometimes felt. Right. But Luis Enrique, changing the system, he basically had to keep winning that clip

to make people okay with the way he was playing. And that's why I think you see so much turnover in the Madrid and Barsa jobs is because that's so unsustainable. The idea of somebody being the Barcelona manager for 15 or 20 years is unfathomable, not just because personality is combustible, but because it's really, really difficult to sustain

being in line for a treble every season. And the messy thing really throws off the balance. You're talking about the best player ever, I think. I agree. So you're starting at the 96 Bulls. It's hard to accept anything other than that if you've got that going. And, you know, I've read the things that have suggested that even the presence of Namar and Suarez, along with Messi, isn't in of itself a betrayal of Barcelona. one ideal. Now, even though

it's not like Samuel Etto or Tyrion Rie came cheap. You know, Renaldeino was cheap. But this idea that your Pedro's, your, you know, the production line, the Boyan, who, you know, is not good, but

it's supposed to be, comes from Lomiza, he goes up to the senior team, he's the next X, you know? That just doesn't seem to be happening there anymore. Yeah, and it's, That's the thing. It's like the, they were, you know,

maintaining this level of success in the face of going away from their principles or whatever. But the team itself, like, as a whole, like, it's not a totally healthy situation because a number of their best players, Messi, Suarez, P.K., Iniesta, Bousquet, they're all going to be 30 or older next season. And you look at that team and it's like, who is there? Who's stepping into that void?

Obviously, Namar, and we've seen him have to be messy for that team at times when Messi's been out, and he's basically stepped up to the challenge most of the time. So you have that, which is great, but who, like, where is the next generation coming from? You're right. Like, there's no, who's the last Barcelona youth product

that, like, has done anything? Sergio Roberto is, like, an occasionally decent outside back. and that's that's it it's like that that farm system is it doesn't seem like it's there and the farm system isn't just an economic thing it's an identity thing that is something that

the people who do truly love and cheer for Barcelona believe in with their whole heart and it's been something that I think it's been interesting to watch that see or fail in various other clubs because when Barcelona under Gordiola was so successful I think you saw a lot of play and this is something Ferguson did I mean people have

good sense of bringing youth along. But that became something like, oh, we have to have to be self-sustainable. We have to have a great academy that produces our own stars so we don't have to pay out the nose for other ones. And that just rarely happens. I mean, like, that's just, it's just easier to buy a known quantity than it is to hope a 19-year-old or a 20-year-old can stand up under the pressures of the game. And I get that.

But that was so ingrained in what Barcelona was. And frankly, what Arsenal was. You know, I mean, that was one of the things that Venger was so good at, was bringing along talent. And I think that I wonder whether or not he had part of it is like, a lot of the times those guys got bought. You know what I mean? Like, they got bought by Barcelona. Yeah. Or Manchester United or whoever.

I don't know. It's a very interesting question because you're seeing it also when a team has an identity, even if it's just like a playing style, like a Toddnum or Liverpool. It's like, can you guys sustain this playing style and still be successful? There's something to the way the evenness of the way like Angelotti manages a team and the way he sets out a team. And even though people may nitpick about it not being like 27th century football like Coriola was, it's like it looked for you today. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

And it's just that's why it's such a, you know, it's still Barcelona and they're still going to be in the Champions League every year. and near the top of the L'Iga. But it is, it does, like, in some ways, to me, it feels like the sport of soccer is evolving in a way that the ideal of how Barcelona wants to play is like almost a way that if you are totally obsessive about it, keep you from being successful, a successful team in 2017. Well, it's just like it, you know, it prizes how you can,

keep the ball and how you move it and playing soccer that's pleasing on the eye. And you know, you're not defending ever. You're defending because you're possessing the ball. It's like a thousand cuts. You're just going. And it's like the fans, like I've been to a couple of Barcelona games and the fans lose their mind when they make 20 passes in a row as much as they do when they score. And like that is getting blown up in a lot of ways by like the higher intensity way that a lot

of managers are playing. And that emphasizes volume of shots and quality of shots. Yeah, and then pressing the hell out of your opponents. Right, and getting the ball in advantageous positions where the defense is like out of water. The thing is when you're playing a press, the passing helps you get through it. But then once you get through it, you need to attack the vulnerability in the system rather than just keeping possession and letting them get back. Right.

So I wonder, it's just sort of a difficult position because, again, it's like Jose Enrique was fine if the team was maxing out its potential and winning everything. Luis Enrique was fine too. Jose Enrique. Oh, my God. I mean, Jose Enrique, let's never speak that name ever again. Luis Enrique, you know, he was fine when he was doing this,

but achieving, winning everything. And now... It wasn't really him when he won everything, and now it's him when he's losing everything. And that's just the way it goes to it. Yeah, exactly. And it's sort of representative of the larger issue at the club where it's like everything is,

fine as long as they're winning, but now that they've lost, you realize that like, oh, there's the youth pipeline is drying up. The last like 10 players we've bought, like Andre Gomez, he was basically invisible yesterday. Like, the last

our transfer market has like been super poor recently and our guys are getting older. So like, you can paper over all of that when you're still winning, right? But when you don't win, then all of this other deserves to be questioned. We're going to get to our Jordan Morris interview, but really quickly, before we

get to that, I did want to ask you a little bit about Dortmund, who also lost to Benfica, and Tuchel pulled Obamai off the field, I think it's like 60 minutes, because of bad body language. And you were telling me a couple of days ago, we were having this conversation about how like advanced stats, Twitter was sort of saying, more or less, like, what is the point of Dortmund? Like, if you're just going to keep buying 18-year-olds and probably lose them as they enter their peak, how sustainable is that?

And I guess this is the flip side. Like, Dortmund is a beloved, beloved team, like among neutrals and above obviously their fans, clearly. But just over the last few years, through Klopp and Tugel and the players that have come through there and the style of football and then like when you can see the atmosphere at their stadium, it's incredible. But you were kind of talking a little bit about this is an identity thing too. What happens when you turn from a club into a little bit more of a conveyor belt? Yeah, exactly. And I mean, that's the thing. We don't have to get into a discussion about capitalism, but like the team is a business also.

So there is that argument. But it's like, do we ever look at Barisian Dormant after a summer and be like, oh, shit, this team is going for it this year? You know what I mean? It's always, okay, this is smart business. They got rid of Gundaghan, who, you know, is an injury risk. You pick up this much money for a guy later in his career. And you replace them with these like 17 young guys who you're going to hit on three of them and you're going to cycling through again.

Christian. And it's just like, yeah, it's like, this is smart business is how we talk about it. But we never talk about it like, oh,

like they're actually going for it this year. They're taking their chance, which why not? Like, what's the point then? Because I feel like by taking this approach, it's like you sort of shield yourself from any criticism in a way,

kind of. It's like, oh, we're not Bayer Munich, so we're running our team this way. And like, we have these young guys, so we're not going to compete with them. at the end of the day. I think that this is beyond that, though, right? Because they've actually had enough of a hiccup for a while here.

Yeah. That they're in fourth, I think, in the Bundesliga. And, you know, they had such financial problems at the beginning part of this century that I think I understand why they're probably a little bit prudent financially. And look, like, do they win a cup or two or a league or two in the last two or three years? If they keep Levinowski? Possibly. I mean, he is, he's not on Bayern Munich,

which is part of the issue. And yeah, I think you, when we were talking about it the other day, you were like, you know, you kind of keep the churn going and hope you hit one year where Byron's down and you make a jump. But at the same time, you're going to have that downturn of luck too at times. I think they are having a slightly different thing that Arsenal's through now where Arsenal had that Fabragas Van Percy team that was really close right I think especially they looked like they were gonna win the title that year

that Ramsey got his leg broken and then they kind of cycled out of that and then brought in a couple of other players who slightly more expensive than they used to but they used to buy and they're an example of what happens maybe when you do change your your team building structure a little bit because I think that people thought well Arsenal is gonna have a bunch of like homegrown talent that they hang on to and then like basically an entire generation of that team was moved out. Yeah, so it's like, do you, it's, again, it's sort of goes to the thing I was saying about Venger before.

It's like if you're a Dortmund, do you take a shot for a year or two knowing that if it doesn't pay out, you maybe fall a little farther than you want for another two years? But maybe with Dorman, taking a shot is also you institute a different playing style because the playing style that they've gone after, the last couple of years with the end of clop and even with two goals, it has its drawbacks. And you do run into player exhaustion. Yeah, it does. And it seems like it's, it also seems like a thing that it's not easy to just plug guys into year after year. I mean, I think he's a very good coach. Me too, yeah.

And he's good too because he doesn't wear jeans, like a lot of other abundantly good managers. Great hand signals, great tracks. suits, no jeans. But yeah, it's more, you know, they're still one of the, what, top eight clubs in Europe still. So, like, again, it's how wide your telescope is when you're looking at this. But, like, it does sort of get back to the question of, like, what's the point when you're that close? This is a very existential pod today. Let's go to our interview with Jordan Morris Jordans of Forward with Seattle Sounders.

He's also on the United States men's national team. He even had a trial a couple years ago at Verda Bremen in the Bundesliga. And Jordan is here, courtesy of Capital One and its Banking Reimagined tour. They are going around the country to help people improve their relationship with money. And for details on this innovative and fun tour, you can go to banking reimagined.com. And let's get to our interview with Jordan. Jordan, thank you for joining us. Yeah, you're welcome.

No worries. Thanks for having me. So, Jordan, we wanted to ask you a couple of different kinds of questions today. We've been talking a lot recently about, you know, basically the development process for players in the States versus in Europe. And you're somebody who has like a really specific understanding of that. Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things we talk about sometimes is how the U.S. has just a unique development system compared to Europe and the rest of the world. And you, you know, went to Stanford.

But if you, you know, if you grew up in Europe, you know, you probably would have been in an academy from, you know, age 10. on and been playing with whatever club you were in from that age every day. Do you ever think about that? Do you wonder what it would have been like if you grew up in Europe? And do you worry, I guess, as someone who played in college if sort of college still has a place in the development system in the U.S.? Yeah, I mean, I definitely, you know, think about that a little bit. I think they're trying to emulate that a little bit, obviously, with the academy team,

you know, with the MLS MLS franchises and stuff like that. But for me, I think that it was important to go to college. I wasn't, I think it's different for every player, definitely based on your personality, stuff like that. But for me, I think I developed a ton of college not only as a player, but as a person, I gained more confidence, definitely matured.

And I wasn't ready at 18 to jump into a professional environment yet. So for me, as a person, again, it's different for every person, but for me it was important to go to college. So you did spend some time over at Bremen in the Bundesliga, like as a sort of on a trial basis. What was the sort of one big takeaway you had from just even your brief experience over there? Like, was there anything different about like the way things worked there versus, say, on the Sounders? Not a whole lot different. There was obviously a very cool experience to go over there and never thought I'd be training with a Bundesliga team

so that was exciting and getting to experience the culture and stuff like that. Obviously it's a little different. A lot of people speak in German, so big difference there. But no, it was a cool experience and I think it was definitely beneficial for me to see that level and see if I thought it would be the right decision to jump over there and in the end decided that it wasn't and that I would

for me it would be best to go back to Seattle and I'm very happy with that decision but it was a very cool experience definitely to go over and train with them. Did you pick up any like conversational German enough to say like that was a foul or that's a card? Not really, no, not really. I picked up some probably some

curse words, stuff like that, but nothing to in depth. Do you, is it a goal of yours to eventually go over there at some point? Yeah, I mean, I guess you never know what the future holds right now.

Of course, I'm very happy in Seattle and love it here and totally focused on trying to win another championship here, but would never rule that out completely saying I never want to go over there. It would be a very cool experience to someday,

play in Europe, but I'm right now very happy with the situation I'm in. I guess, you know, as you look forward in your career, and if you're, if you're, you know, ever going to move on from the Sounders, like looking at destinations for yourself, do you feel the sort of playing style that the coach you're playing for espouses, do you feel like that's important to you that your playing style sort of fits into what the coach you're playing for believes in? Yeah, I mean, I think that's very important. Obviously, as a, you know, my playing style has a lot of trying to get in behind, looking to stretch the opponent. So if someone, you know, is looking for a big hold-up forward, that's probably, that's definitely something I need to keep working on. So I think

finding the right fit with that is, of course, important in finding a coach that believes in you, but I think that's a difficult part. Sometimes you don't know that until you make the jump, and then maybe things don't always work out. But I think that's definitely an important tool to talk to the coach beforehand and see what they're thinking. I was always wondering about guys like you who obviously, like, you excel at the timing of your runs.

I mean, like you're like a lot of like you get these goals that are just like, oh, he was just like in the perfect place at their perfect time. And especially like you're talking about like stretching the defense and slipping into these channels behind. Is there particular drills that you run, or is it like more of a feel thing to time out, like, beating an offside trap or knowing when to, like, start an accelerated run past a defender to get that the ball, the through ball? Is that something you work on one-on-one, or is that something that you find has been trained into you by coaches over your career? Yeah, I mean, there's definitely some drills you can work on. You know, you do patterns to goal, stuff like that.

but it's definitely, I think, a feel thing. Or more importantly, it's a chemistry thing that you have with your teammates. I know Nico Laderro came to our team halfway through the year, and right away we kind of had this chemistry. He told me from the first game he got here, I remember we were walking in a halftime. He was like, Jordan, every time I get the ball, just run, and I'll find you. And so we kind of had this connection where it was like, okay,

when he gets a ball, I know he's going to turn inside, I'd look for this pass, and then I'll try and make the run and be there. It's just kind of that chemistry and that feel you have with your teammates. The other thing, you know, it's become, like, I guess, the invoked tactical trend of the past five or ten years is all of these teams that focus on pressing. And I know, you know, when, you know, as a forward, you know, your job is to score goals, and that's the more goals you score the more valuable you are to your team. but do you feel like the defensive side of your game is something that you, you know,

actively work on and try to get better at? And sort of how do you do that? Definitely. I mean, I think that that's very important when we were in camp this last month with the national team. That's one of the big folks that we were going through is how to press as a team. And as a forward, you're kind of the first line of defense. You have to try and force the ball on one side of the field and really try and keep the team pinned in as best you can.

So as you get older, it's funny when you're younger, obviously it's all about scoring ball and stuff like that, but as you get older and if you have people that really notice and watch the game and understand the game, the defensive side of the ball is really important. So both with the sounders and with the national

team, pressing is a big deal. And something that you've got to keep working on as a team because it takes all 10 field players to do that. Have you noticed, just in career playing, the shift where it seems like more and more teams are using pressing, like, you know, that kind of furious pressing and that frenzy, like, hounding of the ball on the

back lines that's now so in vogue in Europe? Definitely, yeah. You can see that. It's definitely a shift in the game, I feel like we were watching film the other day, and then you were just watching other teams press and, like, Chile, we were watching them how they press and it's pretty how hard those guys work defensive and that's what

makes them I think such a good team so what do you think is going to be there yeah like what's the most effective like counter to that do you think it's like maybe embracing some version of long ball and like getting it out of there faster or do you think that people are just teams are just going to have to become more and more accustomed to playing under that kind of pressure I mean I think it depends on the game

I think definitely using the long ball of your advantage if you're getting stuck in your end and you can't get it out, played up the field, and look to pin them in, you know, keep the ball in their half and try and establish some pressure in their side of the field. So I think it depends on the game and depends if it's working, you know, if it's working and you're playing out and you can break through their pressure,

then you're going to find a lot of open space. But if it's not, they're doing a good job. Typically, the long ball could be a decent option. You mentioned training this with the national team, And, you know, you guys have, you know, have another manager, Bruce Arena. So you've played under two national team managers. And specifically when it comes to training, I wonder, you know,

we've heard these stories about how intense training was under Clintzman about, you know, making guys go on these long runs with empty stomachs. Like, what's the biggest difference, at least in training, Ben, between Clemsman to Arena? I don't know. I mean, that's a good question. Honestly, they're both pretty intense, both work you hard. and get your heart rate,

your heart rate up trying to get the fitness. Bruce's sessions are definitely very, you know, they're a little bit shorter, I think, and compact, but you get a lot of work in and definitely feel the effects afterwards because it's a tough training. So I guess that's a pretty big difference. One of the things that Ryan and I were talking about

at the beginning of the Premier League season was just about how the league there was probably going to be decided by a manager because you had a lot of talent in these top six teams, some better than others, but, you know, obviously we're seeing Chelsea pull away and a lot of that has to do with Conte kind of installing this three at the back

system. And I was kind of curious as a guy who's played in different circumstances. If you could talk a little bit about what a manager actually can do. Because I think when we write about it, when we talk about it, we talk so much about like a Ferguson or a Bruce Arena or a Clemsman, and we act like they're all

like playing the video game, you know, of a match. But you guys were actually executing these plans. You know, the more specific version of this question is, can you remember a time specifically when you've been playing, when a manager has made a tactical shift where you were like, holy crap, like that saved us? I think the biggest example for me is my college coach, played at Stanford and Coach Gunn came in and just completely turn the program around.

I mean, he used the same, a lot of the same players. but just was able to inspire them in a way to get the most out of them. And then he installed his system and was just like, look, we're going to do things my way. You might not like it, but it's going to work and we're going to win games because of it. And that was like the first time where I really saw how, like, you know, I had a lot of good coaches, but where a switch in a coach and a switch in a mentality could make such a big difference on the field. I mean, he's gone on in four years to five years now, maybe to a lot of, win two national championships.

He's been very, very successful. So for me, that was pretty powerful to see how big of a difference he could make. Yeah, I think, like Chris said, when we talk about this, you know, we're obviously talking about it on a game-to-game, in-game basis. But would you say that, you know, the effect that a manager has on a team isn't, you know, it's not necessarily the starting 11 he's picking or the orders he's, giving out from the sideline, it's sort of what you guys are doing in training and sort of what he's developing, like the patterns he's developing in the team. Yeah, 100%.

I think coaches can make little shifts on game day, stuff like that, depending on how the game's going. And that's definitely a mark of a good coach, but it all happens. At training, all happens behind the scene where they get their identity, get their mentality, and still them the team, what they want to see. and then of course it's up to the players on game data to make it happen. But most of that's done where the coach does that in training and really gets the players all on the same page. You know, I think for most casual fans or even informed fans, like we have a tendency when we're watching a game on television to ball watch.

So we're obviously going to just track the ball and see whoever has it. And that's part of the reason why attacking players are so popular. But as a player, I was kind of curious when you're watching a game on TV, you're alive, do you tend to focus on the shape of a team? Do you watch guys who play your position? Do you watch guys that are defending your position? How do you watch the sport? Or do you just watch it as a casual fan?

I think I do a little bit. I watch as a casual fan, but I also definitely try and watch guys who play my position and the poachers in the box who make these movements or don't make these movements and how they get so wide open. in the box to finish off these plays, you know? So for me, as a forward, that's always part of my game.

What I'm trying to get better at is my finishing and in the box kind of being more of a poacher. So I look at, you know, the Chituritos swore as their movement and what they do to get open and make space for themselves. And, of course, the finishing touch they put on it. But I definitely like to watch guys like that to see how I can improve my game. Yeah, I remember one of my coaches always used to show us videos of

Philippo and Zaggy and it was just like a 10-net clip of him tapping the ball into an empty net but it is like a thing like you know people watch you and they you know see you blowing by defenders and taking guys on and driveling by guys

and that's all like awesome but like ultimately so much of it is just like seeing when a guy shoots and then you know just running at the goal in case he gives up a rebound

you know exactly exactly yeah definitely all little little things that you can learn that can help you because no one really cares how you score goals as long as you do it you know I have to ask you I was watching like a montage of some of your goals and there's like one or two instances where like you're you're going in full speed and you must see that it's like a head-on collision coming with the keeper and I wonder like when you're doing that are you like oh man I'm gonna totally like clattering this guy or are you just like I don't care what happens I'm going straight for the ball and whatever happens happens. Yeah, it all happens so fast, and I just kind of have my eye on the ball.

So definitely just kind of whatever happens happens, and usually it's not too bad. Have you been any teams out there right now in MLS or in Europe that you've been especially fond of watching these last couple of months? You know, obviously I've been watching Chelsea. They've been doing so well, so I watch the review show. I try to watch a premierly review show every week, and it's, you know, It's fun to watch them and how they play in their new system and stuff like that. So they've obviously been killing it.

It's been pretty cool. Are there any, like, you know, managers that or teams when you see them play, sort of like what we talked about earlier, teams in Europe, where you see them play and you're like, man, like, if I, you know, if I got a chance to play in that system, I would be awesome. No, I mean. nothing that I can think of. There's obviously players where I'd be like, you know, if I could play with them,

they are so good in it, finding those little balls and stuff like that. It would be fun to play with those guys. But no team really comes to mind, I guess. I think you would enjoy playing with Slotan. I was thinking about that. Just have him knock it down. You just like, just punch it in. And then he'd give you like the most amazing celebration, you know?

But if you've fucked up any chances, you would not let you live it down for the rest of your life. Jordan, man, thank you so much for joining us. We'll let you go now. Yeah, no worries. Thanks for having me, guys. And thanks for listening. We'll be back with you guys shortly.