The Press Box - Ep. 279: ‘Jam Session’ With Sarah Heyward

Episode Date: March 13, 2017

The Ringer’s Juliet Litman and Amanda Dobbins are joined by ‘Girls’ writer Sarah Heyward to discuss the final season (5:00), the infamous Iowa episodes (12:00), Judd Apatow’s subtle influence (22:00), the best moment in the series (27:00), the best guest stars (33:00), and the feeling of wrapping the series (38:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's a Monday. So this must be a special edition of Jam session. And it is. I am Juliet Litman. And you're about to hear from me, my co-host Amanda Dobbins, and the writer of last night's episode's episode of Girls, Sarah Hayward. Sarah wrote Gummies. And we loved the episode. So we decided to talk to her about it. We also just really like girls in general. I think if you like our podcast, you probably like girls or at least are mildly interested in it. So give this a listen. It's a great conversation. And if you haven't watched girls, many spoilers your head. So catch up first. All right. Thanks for listening. Welcome, Sarah.

Thank you. You wrote the Speak Girls. Yes. Episode 5. Yes, Gummies. Gummies. Because Hannah's mom got marijuana poisoning from gummies. Exactly.

I didn't know that was a thing. Do you know that was a thing? Marijuana poisoning. I did not. Cannabis poisoning. Can't you tell us a little bit about the, as like a public service. Could you share the history or the research behind that? It is based on a true story.

I don't know if this person is going to speak publicly about it, but it is about the mother of someone. And they definitely ate too many edibles and the thing with cannabis poisoning is you can't die. That part's true. Good to know. I think that made it in, but maybe it didn't.

You cannot die from cannabis poisoning. But you can, like, vomit and a lot of people feel like they're dying, so they go to the hospital. I would lose my mind. If I thought that I was, like, dying from having too many edibles, I might kill myself because I thought I was dying. Lena either went to or maybe skipped, luckily, like a bachelorette where, like, half the group got cannabis poisoning. And she said, like, an ambulance came to their hotel room.

That is terrifying. Can I ask a follow-up question? Do you happen to know the type of edible in that situation? Like, was it a gummy? Was it a brownie? I don't know the type. I think the problem would be if, and this is something I've always said about edibles, if you like the taste too much and just keep eating, you're in trouble. So my theory when I first started eating edible.

was I used to like pot goldfish, and I felt that they should sell a pack of regular goldfish along with the pot goldfish so that once you start eating the pot goldfish and get the good taste in your mouth, you can just keep eating the regular goldfish. That's a great strategy in general also for the gummies, etc. Keep an alternative. Keep the same snacks. So you're not tempted to go back to the pot. I really appreciate the service that we've already given to the people in this episode.

Totally. So that kind of like, like how many like plot points? Are you given when you start writing your episode? Oh, everything. I'd say we break, like we talk about all the plot points for the whole season and episode by episode in the room. And then we write down what all the scenes are going to be as a group. We put them in order as a group.

Then the writer, so in this case me, goes off, writes an outline based, but fully based on, there's not many surprises in the outline for everyone other than like little jokes and things. Sure. The structure is like what we've gone over as a group. And then once the outline's approved, you go off to. right. So by that point, like, the only real choices I was making were, like, the things that happened within each scene and certainly dialogue and jokes. But I definitely, it wasn't like they're suddenly going to be in, like, a totally different location that, like, Lena hadn't

approved. Like, everything is pretty much following one structure that's already been agreed upon. So we have seen five episodes at this point, and that's, we'll just talk about five episodes, and I guess I don't actually know how it's going to turn out. But so far, it's an interesting decision to have Hannah be like, yes. I'm having it. Yeah. And I'm curious about the dialogue around that decision. I think, I don't know how old you guys are.

Actually, you're probably close. You're what, like 30? I'm 32. Same. There was a big change with my friends in how we talked about the possibility of getting pregnant, like between being 25 and then returning 30. Absolutely. So for the past few years, whether I don't know if, in the same.

the moment this would be true or not, but I've often said, like, at this point, you know, if I got pregnant, I would just keep it. Yeah. So to me, that's not as crazy as, say, like, a 22-year-old on a TV show, you know, so often they have people keep babies on TV shows where I'm like, I don't think in real life, that's why we keep this baby. In this case, it did feel real to me, and I think Talina too, and we both, and the other writers as well, we have friends who, many friends, especially the older we get, who play it

kind of fast and loose with their birth control, knowing that it's not the end of the world if they get pregnant, or knowing that if they get pregnant, great. You know, like, they'll keep, like, I have friends who were like, I'm not trying to get pregnant, but I'm not using birth control. Right. And then, like, they get pregnant. So, and they've kept the baby. So I know, I know a couple people who have made choices like this.

Yeah. I mean, I think that's absolutely true. I will say this. I've known you for 30 minutes. And you definitely seem more together in your life than, say, certain characters on the cover in the show girls, specifically Hannah. Right, that's true. And I am interested in kind of the discussion of whether, of how that character,

do you see it as kind of a signal that she is growing up? Is that kind of the intent? I'm not sure. I can't speak for what Lena's intent was, but to me actually, and we did talk about this in the room, I have a couple friends who hadn't found their life yet and like hadn't gotten it together and then getting pregnant. became the thing they were doing. Right.

So it's like a sort of interesting. One thing we did talk about a lot was like whether it's almost like would be better that she's like failing in her career and then decides to keep. Because I've seen more often that someone like hasn't found themselves. And then they're like, oh, I'm a mother. That's what my thing is. So what we talked about a lot was like whether we wanted to do it the way we're doing it where she's getting jobs and actually succeeding as a writer, but also deciding to keep

this baby as opposed to like the baby's the solution. solution, yeah. That makes sense. Yeah, I think, but I do think like it's not necessarily, in a weird way, someone who has their life together at 30 or 32, or might be less inclined to keep the baby because they're like, no, no, no, like my career is going. Sure, absolutely. And I have all these goals.

Where someone who's a little more like hapless is like, all right, I guess this is what I'm doing now. Yeah. Also, it's like more likely at 27 than 32 that you would have a lot of friends who have kids. You might not necessarily have like a portrait of like what it actually means to have a baby. in front of you, so you're like kind of more willing to sign up for it. Yes. That's very true.

Not knowing how hard it is. I totally agree. My brother having a baby, it was the first of like the cousins and siblings. My brother having a baby, people that whole summer were like, is it making you want one of your own? And I was like, I'm never having children. And I love my niece truly more than anyone in the world. But like I couldn't, I got tired after five minutes. Yeah.

Nothing about it made me want a child. I'll never forget a call from one of my best friends about two months in. And she was just like, no one tells you, this is the hardest thing. And I guess it is easier to be the first person to go because you don't see all of the, oh, God. Okay, they weren't kidding. Right. This seems really hard. I just keep telling myself that, like, we can't relate to the love you feel for the kid.

And that, like, that will somehow make it easier. And I won't just be like, okay, I want to read the paper and drink some coffee. Like, can someone else watch this child. Right. I thought it was really helpful in the episode when Hannah was doing her list of reasons that she shouldn't have the baby. For me, it was like a really useful kind of like reset of where Hannah is right now. That's true. So I was like, it was really helpful that first of all that her specific age 27 was mentioned because like it's been, this is season six, but I just

like, right? Season six. It is season six and it is hard to keep track. Yeah. We have a bit of like an endless summer vibe behind girls, but I'm the right former writer's assistant now writer Max Brockman and I are like obsessed with timelines and making things accurate. So every year we get together secretly with the script supervisor and come up with however we have to stretch it so it makes sense, like what month it is and that like it's been this many months and this person's this age. So it is correct.

She is 27. How old is Ray? Ray is older. He's like... They tell his age at some point, don't they? I think so. He's like mid-30s, I think, right? Mid-too late, I think.

Yeah, because he's significant... He's like 10 years older than Shoshana or something? It's something like that. Yeah, that's what I remember. Like on this subway, that subway scene. Exactly. I don't remember the exact details. Yeah, that was like a very useful reset

because I also kind of then put everyone else in perspective too. Yes. Of like this is, you know, they're 27 now, it's been X number of years. Also like how much money Hannah projects yourselves to be making per year. That was like,

they were kind of like all very real touchstones. In some ways it was like a very like practical episode. Do you guys talk about sort of like the different like tones that you hit episode to episode? And like was it specific in this one to be very like pragmatic? to kind of like follow Hannah's frame of mind? We don't talk about them that way.

The only time we talk about tone that, like, that specifically would be for a bottle episode, like the Matthew Reese episode or the first Patrick Wilkinson. Sure. Right. So, no, it's more, it flows pretty naturally, like what, you know, some of the episodes are, like, more madcap and if that just happens, like, and you can tell by the outline what it's going to be like. And then, of course, there are some that end up being sad.

often in the room, like when we're talking about certain plot lines, like you'll just start to like feel the emotion. Like when I was writing Hello Kitty last year, which is when the moment when Hannah finds out about Jessa and Adam on the fire escapes, like every time we talked about it, it was the sort of like achy, like, oh, you know, like it's so heartbreaking. So like that, of course, was going to have a sad vibe. Right, right.

It seems like you get episodes that have like fights or like confrontations. Although if you look back, many episodes have fights and conversations. That's true. It's a great point. That's true. Is it like something you specialize in? How do you end up with the episode that you get? They assign it almost randomly. Like a lot of it has to do with the early episodes in the season are always Lena and Jenny, and then usually like the highest of the high, like of the other executive producers. And then it sort of like trickles down along the way. Occasionally there's some plotline that someone has to have. And like when she was at the Iowa Writers Workshop, I had gone there. So they made sure I got a much earlier episode than I would have gotten for, for, whatever level I was.

Like, they made sure I had one of the Iowa episodes, whereas I probably otherwise would have had, like, episode seven. Right, right. We actually, Amanda and I were beforehand, we're like, yeah, we got to ask her about the Iowa stuff. Yes. How much, like, of your experience informed that plot line in general? We had always talked about her possibly going to grad school, just because there's only so

many paths an aspiring writer can take. And I talked about Iowa a lot separately just because it was like the best two years of my life and I'm obsessed with it. And when they met me, I had, like, just come out of it. So I, once they had made that decision, they didn't tell me for, like, a month because they thought I'd get too excited and, like, Mikel away. So, like, the writer's assistant, like, secretly told me. So I had, like, I acted really cool when they finally told me.

And then I got upset because I was like, you know, oh, my God, I loved Iowa and we're going to have to make Hannah not love it. Like, unless the show is taking place in Iowa for the rest of it, she's going to have to be Hannah in Iowa. and I really didn't want in any way to make it look like anything less than perfect because I loved it there so much. So first I made a huge document,

like 10 single space pages of like everything about Iowa what the social life is like, what my memories were. All the writers had to read that. I'm sorry to them. And then I just sort of, you know, I came to terms with the fact that like a lot of stuff wasn't going to be exactly true to life. So once I got over that, we used a lot of my experience, but none of my emotional content.

Like, the stuff that we used was like that. There's cubbies that you put letters in or like that my house was insanely huge and not expensive. What the undergrad parties were like compared to the poet party she goes to was based on a real party I'd been to. And I got a lot of emails from people I hadn't heard from in years being like, it was that party, wasn't it? coincidentally, a party where I felt like I overdosed on pot brownies. So really all comes full circle. Yeah, seriously. And yeah, but her experience in terms of like being judged by her classmates and all, none of that,

we just had to do that for TV. And then also I'm still close with the teachers and administrators at Iowa, so I was also getting emails from them being like, whatever you do, don't make it seen like someone can get kicked out for the following, you know, like wanting you to stay true to like their codes. So I was also trying to deal with that. But it worked out fine. And it was so fun for me to relive even a little bit of it.

Those parties scenes were phenomenal in Iowa. Yeah. It seemed like a great time. It is a great time. What has changed the most from like the earlier seasons to like writing this last season, basically? Like do you go into it the different mindset with or like kind of tying things up? We'd known how the main characters were going to end their stories more or less for years. So it wasn't such a crazy.

We didn't start out this season. like, all right, guys, like, how are we going to do it? You know, like, we had a lot of ideas already set. And, of course, they changed, but you knew basically what we wanted. I don't know. We all stayed kind of practical about it. It was not a very, writing it was not very emotional. I'd say getting toward the end of filming was when things started to feel really different

and final. And certainly, it was incredibly strange when they're, like, taking down sets and, like, giving away, you know, props from Hannah's bedroom or whatever. But in the actual writing, of it, I think maybe even just for our own, like, mental stability, we treated it almost like any other season. I am curious, what does change? And, you know, not in specifics, but is it, like, a character's arc or is it we're

not going to do this scene anymore because it doesn't feel? Like, what changed from what we were planning? Yeah. There were certain ideas we had about who would end up with who that as we played the stories out, or it's like an idea we had three years ago that we don't put into action until you know, like let's say we were like Marnie and Ray, but we like didn't put, maybe we had that idea of season two

but didn't put it into action until a later season. I don't know what all the seasons actually were, but if once we see it on screen, we either something changes in the chemistry or what we decide that we liked it better when they weren't together or it's like more interesting when they're having this kind

of dynamic, it just changes once you're watching it as opposed to just thinking about it in the writer's room. So it was more like something that might have seemed like a fun ending when we were just talking about it, abstractly season two. Once we're deep into the plot lines, it's like, no, we want to like zig this other way.

Right. One thing that really struck me this week was like kind of a Hannah's big fight with Elijah, about her not telling him that she was pregnant. But first of all, I totally know that kind of fight where like you're mad at your friend for not giving you the information, like, quickly enough.

But I was kind of surprised it was with Elijah, right? Because like if you had watched season one, you would assume it would be like with Marnie or Jessa. And so, like, was the kind of like the Elijah plot, like always part of the master plan? Or is that sort of like, oh, we like Andrew Reynolds. Yeah, it was much more we like Andrew Reynolds. I mean, I do too. He's great.

He stole the show for us. Like, we weren't, I don't think he was ever supposed to be as continuing a character as he was. But from that very first episode with him in season one, he was so funny, so good at improvising. He brings so much to the role. And, you know, I mean, it's one of those things where we did start out being, like, Marnie and Hannah are like the, you know, they are the real, like, romance of this show, like these best friends. But as you guys probably know from your 20 is, like, you can think that with all your heart.

And then these friendships change. And, like, you end up in a totally different place with people than you thought you would. Yeah, totally. So. But that was, I'm very curious about that. That was a mid-season realization as opposed, not a mid-season, but kind of a mid-show realization as opposed to. I'm not saying what were the other, what the,

true romance of the show. Yeah, sure. You'll have to see the rest of it, you're not spoiling it. But I would say, like, a lot of these things, it's not even that we're, like, talking about it overtly. It's just like, oh, we really like seeing

Diana and Elijah together. Like, we want them to live together. And then, you know, once people are living together, they're in a lot of scenes together. So it happens a little more organically than that. And it also just comes out of the individual characters changing, which happened just pretty organically for us.

That, of course, changes the first. friendships too. So, like, Marnie has changed a lot from season one. Inevitably, the friendship with Hannah was going to change. Yeah, absolutely. I think having a man tell you that you're not ready to be a mom is also in some ways, like, on the one hand, like, more hurtful, but on the other hand, like, way softer of a blow, because it's sort of like it doesn't play into, like, the pre-mom-on-mom fighting that I've heard about. Or you can see in Big Little Lies. Right.

Oh, my God, I love Big Little Lies. Let's go right. We'll come back to that. I'm active for sure. We have a lot of thoughts. But it's interesting. Like, it's almost like messaging on like if Hannah is ready or not. I mean, I think viewers know if she's ready to be a mom, like, or have their own opinion. But like because Elijah is saying it and not Marnie, it's almost like a different judgment than what you're expecting. Yeah. I mean, to me, I was just like, oh, God, this is just the beginning of what's going to happen. And obviously, you can't, you know what's coming, so you don't have to comment. But you're right that it just, it was like a teaser all.

knows that this is going to be the big argument over the next few episodes. Totally. And I also, him saying, no one else will say it to you, so I'll say it now. It sort of is like setting this stage for everyone else to kind of weigh in and probably not be quite as forceful, but maybe more hurtful. Yeah. But also like in the same episode, you have her mom not saying that she's not ready. So it's like, you know, it's another possibly more significant voice.

Right. Yeah, the stuff with her mom was really dark. I think I forgot about it already because I kind of blocked it out. I know. That's like one of her more intense relationships. Absolutely. I mean, the first thing that I thought of just now was when I look at your baby, I will think of death. Which is an incredible line.

And I wanted to ask about the jokes. The jokes in this episode are quite good. And you said that those kind of come individually. Do you really just sit in the room? right about third-eye blind semi-charmed life apapelic covers which is incredible no that came from oh my god that was me because a lot first of all some jokes come

it's not like I read a lot of the jokes but then if it's your episode you've written probably most of the jokes but then on set people are pitching jokes and refining sure the actors improvise like I can't and like Lena of course it's like a joke machine and always has good ideas for jokes and I have to give Jud Appetow credit for the when I look at your baby I'll think of death that is him

all the way. He wanted that line in there. Judd, it's in there for you. But the semi-charmed life, one of my best guy friends in college was a high school a cappella star, and he gave me a CD or a tape, whatever it was at the time, of his high school acapella. It was a CD because it's in, the song is still in my top 25 most played in iTunes. It's him singing semi-charmed life as like a 16-year-old. And he said, he was so psyched because he was like, if you think about the lyrics, they're like really dirty. And about like drugs and stuff, and he, like, sings it in a sweet, like, tenor voice. So I was determined to get that in there, and we had to, like, you know, we were using

the real Acapella group from Oberlin, and I think we had to get them to record a version of it for us in order for us to use it. So that was very happy about that. That's pretty amazing. That was a great moment. College Acapella is such a thing, too. Like, is it still a thing? Well, it's perfect, right?

Yeah, I guess so. Here's the thing. Like, we were all in college 10 years ago, and it was definitely a thing. Definitely. Are people still like this is what I need to do with my college time? I think it's timeless. Yeah. Wow.

If you're a theatrical person. Yes. Like that's what you're into. I guess that's true. It's your outlet. And also like at Oberlin they have the music conservatory, right? So they have all the people who can like sing and like want like the stage right away. Yeah.

Northwestern is similar because there's the theater school. Yeah. So. And then Dartmouth didn't their group go on the singoff? They did. Oh yes. Yeah. After I left.

Yeah. No, it's true. Oh, you were in it? No, no, no, no, no, after I left college. Wow, no, sorry. No shots to anyone who wanted to be a part of acapella. Amanda is deeply uncomfortable with live performances. I am.

So you guys have made me just excruciatingly uncomfortable many times over the course of this six seasons. Marnie singing stronger. Please, I just, I have watched it. It's an incredible scene that, honestly, I'm having a physical reaction to just thinking about it. Yeah, the Marnie singing stronger. So long ago, yeah. Marnie singing in general has just... I know.

Oh, God. The plot line with the folk songs. I mean, it was great. It was very effective. You guys really know what you're doing. And also, I definitely clawed my eyes out a lot. Yeah. I'm curious, what are you looking back now?

Like, what are your favorite scenes? Or the, maybe not even favorite, but the scenes that stick with you for one reason or another. Oh, my God. Like, from over all the seasons. I love when Marnie and Hannah have their fight in season one at the end. She throws an eyeliner pencil at her, or an eyebrow pencil at her. And she's like, you're the wound, you're the wound. There's just some very real stuff in the friendship stories that I loved.

I love that scene. I love, oh, there's so, it's like so hard to think of. But I like when, you know, I like parts of the beach house. That's one of my favorites. It's a great episode. I like when all the, I mean, it's such a cliche thing to say. I like when all the girls are together. We feel the exact same way.

And like we always, we didn't want to. to be sex in the city, but we all like it when they're together too. I know that people like when they're together. I'm not so like, oh actually my favorite moment in the whole, it's a lot of season one. My favorite moment in the whole series is probably Marnie and Hannah dancing.

Dancing on my own. It's very sweet. I recently put dancing on my own back on my iPod for running and was thinking about that moment. And it has like, I mean, I was of a certain age in New York when the show came out, as many people were. And that scene is probably emblematic of the whole series.

for me. Yeah, I love that so much. And there was, like, a sweetness in season one. And for me, like, I'm, like, nostalgic about it. So, like, that was really nice. And the characters weren't, like, fully, you know, like, bitter at each other yet. And there's a lot of, like, musical stuff. I mean, my friends were obsessed with just in the Matthew Reese episode with Desperado.

Yeah, that was cool. And she walked out. So I, like, rewatch that a bunch of times. I rewatch that scene a lot of times because I was trying to figure out the exact address of that building. Oh, my God. It's a beautiful building. I figured it out. It's, like, 55 for recitrival.

Drive. It's like very close to where I grew up. It's Central Park West. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, I thought it was Riverside Drive in 79. No, I'm pretty sure it's right off the park. Yeah, I think it's Riverside Drive. I really, I was like, I spent a lot of time on this. Maybe not, though. That wiped a building. I have the address. I can look it up for you.

Can I ask you a follow-up location question? The Chinese restaurant from last night. Yeah. Where is that? Shoot, which one did we end up doing? I think we did M. Shanghai in, it's Williams. Yeah, that's why I... We looked at Kings County and then we couldn't do it for some reason and I think we ended up doing M-Chene.

I'm like 99% sure at Central Park West. Damn it. Only because I remember going into the park like during breaks and stuff. I just thought it was Riverside because I was like I feel like... But there's no river there. Oh, damn. Then I guess it must have been Central Park West.

I was wrong. I was also, I was like just way too many people and walk down Riverside Drive. I was like there's never this credited. Well also it's like a fan. I mean, they're not in. Yeah. No, and also like they're going into his bill.

You know, like it's not quite like true. too reality. Damn, I really was certain, fuck, I'm wrong. We can confirm it later. There's a chance I'm wrong, but I'll be shocked because I have very vivid memories of like bringing Matthew Reza coffee next to the park and feeling so cool for doing it. How was he? He was amazing.

He was so nice and so fun. And I just wanted to like grill him with questions about his baby and Carrie Russell. And I obviously was just polite and didn't say anything. Are you a Felicity fan? Yes. Felicity is kind of a spiritual predecessor to girls in some ways, I think. Like coming to New York. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I love Felicity personally. Me too. So does Lena, I think. It's just a great. It's just an incredible show. I yesterday was reviewing my YouTube saved videos that I've had for the last, like, 10 years.

And the first two that I had was the final, like, advertising that played on the WB when they're, like, saying goodbye or whatever. And then the second was the final montage after the last episode of Felicity with all of the Hayes. And they're like, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. From the first hey to the last, like, thank you. That's incredible. It's a really moving video. I'll send it to you. One of my favorite, like, musical choice moments in TV.

It, like, meant so much to me at the time when Felicity was on, which I think was, like, high school. 99, 2002. Right. So, thank you. Was when she decides to change his page, what's his name? Ben? When she decides to change his paper. Like, she's, like, supposed to print it out and she edits it.

And Save Tonight starts. Oh, yeah. And it was the first time I'd ever heard the song, and it became, like, a really meaningful song for me after that. Sneaky good music in that show. Yeah. Like, there's some, just some real bangers. It's also incredible use of Sarah McLaughlin. That was, like, both really cheesy and then incredibly self-aware.

I mean, no one's ever said incredible use of Sarah McLaughlin before, but... I think you have... Whatever. It's definitely a time capsule, I feel, you know. For sure. I wanted to ask you back to girls, though. Do, like, what's it like being on set? Because I feel like a lot of TV shows, the writers don't go on set.

Yeah. We're all on set every day. It's weird. It's not typical at all. I like it. I mean, it's exhausting because you're in production for months and you are on set every day. But it's really nice because, at least for me, I feel like very connected to the episodes. I remember the experience of shooting them.

It's then even cooler to see them cut together with music and stuff. Right. It always looks different than what you remember seeing. And so much changes on set with the actors improvising or with us pitching different lines or realizing a scene doesn't work and rewriting it. So parts are boring, but it can be very exciting. Do you end up doing a lot of rewrites? Like on the fly?

Some. It just depends on the day. Like, and it depends who's there. And if, you know, it's more, sometimes just with small scenes, you'll, like, realize there's something missing or it's not quite working and we'll rewrite it. But usually we have it pretty worked out ahead of time. Right, right. Yeah.

It's, like, it's funny with how so many shows, there's, like, to disconnect between, like, what's actually filmed and what's written. I mean, I feel like as a writer, you must, like, want to be on set. Well, yeah, and it's also really, it's so interesting because sometimes I'll get asked for, like, to send the script of Hello Kitty, and I'll have to go through so many. I'll find ones that have plot lines that were, like, I've never made it in, or we didn't shoot them, or we did shoot them, and then they got cut, and it's like, this doesn't look anything like what you saw on TV, but. You've gotten some pretty great Adam and Jessus scenes, and they're, like, definitely my favorite couple. They're so good together.

They're incredible. That was, like, a weird, unexpected one for us. Interesting. It's like they just, we like saw how good they were together. Interesting. Like, do you remember the first, like, episode you're like, oh, maybe they're like going to end up together or they're going to have a relationship? I think, I don't remember that exact moment, but I remember when we were having them spend time together because of A.A.

And when he was dating Mimi Rose, we were like, it was maybe an episode before it was revealed that Mimi Rose existed. And we were like, people are going to think, it's crazy. Like, people are going to think Jess and Adam are going to be together, you know? And then it was like, oh, we're down things. He doesn't have Adam were going to be together. They just worked. They're so great together. It's like an amazing energy and like it just like, I don't know, it makes sense.

What has it been like knowing Adam Driver pre and post Star Wars? I'm so happy for him. He is the most talent. He's one of the most talented people I've ever met. And watching him on set was incredible. I also just think Lena's a genius for casting him. Like people were like he's not traditionally handsome. Like this is really going to be like the love interest.

on the show. She had chemistry with him. She saw something in him. Like, it's, he's lived, surpassed any expectation we ever had. And the fact that the world now recognizes him as, like, this, like, hot stud who can all, who can be in, like, the biggest movies. Like, it's incredible. He deserves it so much. And he's really professional on hardworking. And it's just, we've definitely seen his body grow to twice the size. Yeah. The physical transformation is. Like, we, like, my, Jenny, my other boss, like, took pictures, like, where she's completely hidden behind him because he was, like, so big. And he started out kind of like a gangly, tall-

Yeah. Is that for a movie or just like... I think for Star Wars, he had to like really bulk up. Oh my God, it's wild. I mean, like, he could be among the 10 most famous people in the world, like, because of the Star Wars. Which is so... And I don't... I'm not going to say, like, girl...

I think he would have had success regardless, but I'm so happy we got to, like, be the ones to, like, present him first to the world. And I have some very cool photos of him, like, doing... I told him to, like, pretend to kill me however he wanted from Star Wars. So he's doing, I haven't seen it, but he's doing some like choke, death joke. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that happens. And I, like, send it to my brother and all the little kids I know and everyone was very excited. That's really funny.

That's awesome. We did a thing on the site right before the show, the season premiered of, like, ranking all the guest stars of all time. There's been some, like, really amazing ones. Do you have particular favorite guest star or, like, you know, cameos? Oh, my God. Who are the ones you guys liked? I loved Patrick Wilson, and I was very happy to have you back. Just an incredibly handsome man.

I was part of a very spirited conversation about Patrick Wilson this weekend. And then on Sunday night. He appeared. Yeah, it was really magical. So thank you for that. Was anyone anti? Yes. What?

Yeah, I know. I was not. I was just basically standing on the table. Well, not everyone likes an adult male blonde. That's true. He was among the only good ones. Yeah. So, you know, that's a problem.

I completely agree. I think the blondeness was kind of the topic of discussion. But I did feel like I personally had summoned him to the episode, which was great. It was exciting to see him come back. I also had forgotten he was the doctor. Right, right, right. Didn't stick with me. Totally.

Who are some other really good ones? There's just like a lot of, I was, the RIS at the beginning of the season. Yeah, he was great. He was so, it was so crazy to see him in that role after, like, binging the night of. Yes. And I was, and he's like a little bit methods. And he, like, stayed, he, like, used the surfer voice all week. And then at the end, he, like, slipped into his natural.

It was like, they yelled cut on the final scene. And he was, like, thanking me in a, British accent and I was like, oh my God, I had no idea. That's funny. I wouldn't have taken him for a method actor, too. I don't know if he, I don't want to speak for him and say his method, but I do know that he was using that surfer voice. It might be hard to switch in it out of the accent.

He did good accent. He did. It's true. It's not always, not everyone can do that. He was good. He was really good. I think the Donald Glover two episodes. Obviously, it was like pretty memorable time of girls.

I like 80 Bryant. She was like real and she was like a pleasure to have on set. I loved that arc with Shoshana going to Japan. I can't think of, I mean, if you name some others, like I can remember, but it's so hard to just pull up like all the guests. I mean, like Jenny Slate is always funny when she's on it. The people who intersect with Shoshana I often like because it's sort of like unexpected in some ways because she's an incredibly unique character. Yeah, some questions about Shoshana. when did you guys realize that she was going to become,

I don't want to say the moral voice of this show. Someone said this she had an interview two days ago. They were like, she's the voice of reason. She is. Before the season, we also did our favorite episodes, and I went back and watched Beach House because I love that one. But even then, and that's kind of season three, she's, like, extremely drunk.

And it takes, like, a lot of alcohol for her to be, like, you guys are all assholes to each other. other. And I guess it's rude, but even there, there is kind of a sense of clarity that was maybe not there in the first season. Yeah. I mean, she's very young. She's supposed to be younger than them. Right. Right. So the first season, she's very young. And she, you know, she's a character that, in my opinion, is, like, underestimated and, like, underseen. You know, like, we didn't always have as much material for her that made it in, like, as we wanted to. So to me, it's, like, her growing up and growing away from these girls who she sort of fell in with that weren't necessarily the path that

she was going to be on. But it's like her cousin is Jessa, you know, and like she got drawn into this group. And as a result, it's, it's her process of growing up too. So it's like, you know, realizing, like I somehow ended up here and I don't want this. Like she's also, I don't know, a lot of girls who might seem like silly or frivolous or whatever people thought of her in like the first season. Like, some, you know, as people grow up, graduate college, like find their path. Like, those same people end up being, you know, highly successful adults. She was certainly always, like, an organized quick thinker, even if she was thinking about silly things a lot of the time. Totally.

Yeah, she's been a fun transformation. Yeah. Miss her that dorm room. No, I know. It was very bright. Was it a dorm room or I thought it was like her little apartment. Oh, wait. It was like a studio beginning.

It's been the same apartment. Oh. There have been some, like, additions. Yeah. I was going to ask about the kitchen. suddenly in this new season. It was like there was an extension or something. There wasn't.

I get very upset because I live in a studio. Right. And I'm like, this isn't accurate to how small they feel. Right. Wait, while we're on this topic, the fashion in this season has been extraordinary. Oh, good. But however, like, possibly outside of the people's price range. Like, I spotted some number six clogs on Jess and I was like, I love those.

And also, you don't have a job. Yeah. Which I'm not complaining about. It just, it is. I was wondering about Hannah's sweatshirture because that's a very expensive shirt with a typical boy sweatshirt. but for the most part they really do because I talk to the costumers and they really do get the clothes

from places the girls could afford I just think occasionally I mean like sometimes the actor has a piece of clothing that we end up using and that might be Jessa looks incredible this season I want everything

she's wearing not that it would look great on me but it's really she's leveled up last season and this season I just am like I could stare at you for a really long time I've always felt that way her face she has a perfect face she's beautiful and clothes fit her perfectly

no matter what yeah she's just like also So the red lipstick is just really working. She looks great in jeans, which, like, everyone wears jeans, but very few people really look great in them. Yeah. And she really, she does. But she really looks great in everything.

Like, it's very, it would be impossible to find something. She doesn't look that in. Overall, the little T-shirts, big T-shirts, with nothing under them, anything. Naked, too. Eating yogurt. Yeah. The yogurt was quite a touch. I know.

I'm really going to miss girls when it's over. Yeah. How are you feeling about, what are the stages of grief for? of saying goodbye. We had a long shooting season, so by the end, I think we were all like, okay, like, time to get back to our lives. It was hard living in two places this whole time, so it just logistically, like, I feel some, like, relief at just being back in L.A., but it's really, it's hitting us now that it's airing. Like, we all keep texting kind of like, oh, this is sad. Whereas when it was finishing up, we were definitely sad, but it was like, you get caught up in the moment.

It feels very exciting to finally, like, see. all these things we've talked about, come to fruition. I think when this season stops airing and we're no longer, like, getting to relive it, like, that'll be a, it'll hit us even harder. Yeah. It doesn't hit me hard, too. I look forward to it. I can't believe it's, it's only been five years.

I mean, it's both, it both, yeah, I guess that's true, but it's both seems like this show just debuted because I remember it so vividly. I know, but then when you think about it, it's so long ago. Yeah. It's like, I have the same feeling where I'm like, no, it's like kind of a new show. And then I'm like, no, it's like been on forever. Definitely a different climate for the show. Like it just would be received.

We say that all the time that we don't think girls would get made for HBO right now. Like a show about four white girls. It just, it came at a time that was right for it. And so much change has happened not like as a result of girls, but like in part as a result of like what was on TV then that needed to be changed. So like that's just been incredible. And like we, I mean, I can't speak for everyone. I feel lucky that like we got it in when we did. And then, you know, that all this amazing change has happened.

And now it's like ushered in a new era of TV. Yeah. It's, it definitely is like a, like a turning point or whatever. Like, you know. Like, there were always, there were always, like, the sex and the city comparisons, but it's sort of like a different chapter. Well, it was also around the same time as, like, the Mindy Project. We were starting to see, like, non-traditionally, like, TV star women, you know,

being accepted as, like, the lead of a TV show, cover of magazines. Totally. That was, like, a big change that I feel like we're already almost taking it for a granted now, whereas then it was like, what? You know, like, Lina's on the cover of Vogue. Like, that's insane. Yeah. Like, and now we're like, yeah, great.

Cool. Yeah. Sarah, thanks so much for coming for this. Thank you. Yeah. We're a big fan of your work and excited to see the rest of the season play out. Me too. Thanks again to listening to this special jam session.

We'll be back next week as per usual for our regular jam session schedule. And who knows, if you like this podcast, let us know. And we'll try to do more interviews. We're mixing it up, open to suggestions. Just want to keep you, the listener, happy. Thanks for listening and we'll be back soon.