The Press Box - Ep. 280: ‘Bachelor Party’ — The Season Finale

Episode Date: March 14, 2017

The Ringer’s Juliet Litman is joined by Bill Simmons to discuss Nick’s decision to choose Vanessa over Raven (0:30), things they’d rather see in a finale (7:30), and a new version of 'The Bachelor' with celebrities (18:50). Then Ringer 'Bachelor' recap writer Rodger Sherman joins to further dissect Monday's finale (32:12). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

All this month, we're asking you to tell a friend about a podcast they'll love. Right now, think of a friend, your mom, anyone you care about. What podcast would they really love? All right, you got it? Now, do it. Tell them about it in real life or on social media. And if they don't know about podcasts, show them how. Tell us what you recommend with the hashtag tripod.

That's pound, T-R-Y-P-O-D. Thanks for spreading the word. And now it's time for Bachelor Party. Welcome to Bachelor Party. I'm Juliet-Litman. It's the season finale. So how to bring in the big guns, my boss, my friend, Phil Simmons. I know, I had to do this for my wife.

My wife wanted to be on and schedules didn't permit. I was thinking of some ways or maybe your wife could come back for a special for The Bachelorette. Yeah. I think that would be, we got to get her take on all of this action. Her takes bare or mine, so it's actually, you're probably covered with the entire Simmons family, including our daughter who made it through the whole season. So what were your daughter and your wife's final opinion on Vanessa? I would have liked to have heard one joke over the course of three months. I know.

She's completely humorless. Seems like a nice person. I respect what she does. Super attractive. Barely pretty. I'd love to know if you went through how many bachelor seasons, 21. Does the prettiest one just win every time? Maybe it's like 80, maybe 538.

This is what they should be doing instead of win expectancy. They should just have like a hot expectancy rating. And it's just like, whoever the best one is, that's going to win. And she was the best one coming out of the limo. I was like, wow, that lady's gorgeous. She has been this whole time. time. She's also been aggressive this whole time, which we know Nick responds to. I would venture to say she's one of the prettier winners, full stop.

No question. Like she's just, I would say, in the top 5% of Bachelor winners. No question. Great body. Yeah. I don't even know who really rivals her. Yeah, I think they had to do a lot of editing jacannery to make it seem like anyone else is going to win, even like in the last night's episode where they do the whole, oh, you know, I might just say I don't even want to get married and just leave this thing alone. I don't think she ever felt that way, and I think Nick knew he was taking her from the moment he kissed her after she puked in the plane.

That was the most disgusting thing that's ever happened on the dishwasher. I'm with my wife for my entire life. I don't want to say I'm stuck with her because it was a choice, and I really enjoy your company. At no point did I ever love her enough to make out with her after she threw up. Also, if you're the vomitor, do you even want to make out with someone? It's gross. No. Just give me a club soda.

Let me sell on my stomach first. Then we can talk again. It was horrible. And really the only people I've ever been around when they threw up that I felt like I didn't care if it got on me or my kids. But that's like a whole DNA biological thing. When it's another human being you're not related to, I don't get it. Keep it over there. But that was it.

The season was over when he kissed her after the puke. It's a puke kiss, cements it. It seemed like he was having a lot of fun with Raven, like just in general. And you have to wonder if they did that because otherwise it would just be too obvious that he was going to pick Vanessa. She seems fun. I think he probably told her, I'm not going to pick you, but make it to the final two. You'll be on TV a lot. We'll have fun in the fantasy suite.

She was the source of a lot of humor in my house because we just had all these jokes about how she was a vampire and she killed somebody with her shoe. It just never ended. She was the gift that kept on giving. Hold on, Nick. I have to go get my blood drained. And she really, she's somebody that it could turn out three years from now. She was in a vampire cult in Arkansas, in Arkansas. You wouldn't be like stunned.

No. You'd be like, oh, wow, that's weird. But you wouldn't be like, oh, my God, that's, I can't believe it. I can't think of anything you can tell me about Raven that would stun me at this point. Well, because she confessed that she attacked her boyfriend with a shoe. Right. And then was very comfortable talking about how she's never orgasmed. Yeah, but that was a lie.

I mean. That was a lie. At least me, I hope so. That was a lie. Look. It's just bizarre. You can't not have one for the entire time you're with the boyfriend and then night one in the fantasy suite with Nick, you're ready to roll.

Come on. It just happens for you. Yeah. I think it's less likely that Nick gave her an orgasm than she's never had one. Like, it just seems. Yeah, I would say, yeah. It's probably a pick-um in Vegas between those two categories. Who knows?

Who knows? It's very hard to say. I'm disappointed she's going to paradise. I kind of wanted bigger things for her. Yeah, I felt like she was kind of overqualified and a little too classy to be in Paradise. But every once in a while in Paradise, they'll have the one who really is there for the right reasons. Sure. And isn't there to become a spectacle.

But she might go the other way, too. What do you mean? There might be a second side to her that might get unleashed in Paradise with something a little more wild. For some reason, I never felt like she was drunk on the show, Raven. No. And her body was always, I never knew, like, did she have curves? Did she not? Like she always wore clothes.

I could never get a feel for anything with her. The hair was, because she's a vampire. She's a shapeshifter. Right. I think she was a shapeshifter. Also just occurs to me. We almost never see her interact with the other women. Like she's like a lot of the women we see them talk to each other.

Like it was clear Rachel and Vanessa like hated each other. But. Is that really? Yeah, I'm pretty sure. That was clear? Yeah. Like when they be like lining up next to each other, there was one they were in Bimini. And it was like down to them.

They were next to each other. They like did not even acknowledge each other's presence. Like they were like going out of their way to look straight ahead and out of each other. Let's be honest. If you're just picking somebody based on here's my life mate that I'm going to have the most fun with, you pick Rachel. Yeah. Best personality. Definitely.

Cute as hell. Great family. Yeah. That's the one. Rachel's like just a massive win unless there's some sort of something that we didn't know about from the show. I have a hot take which I don't think she'll be a good Bachelorette for that reason. I think she's boring because I just think she's like too normal. Like there's nothing like wacky about.

You could see it with the. incredible after the final rose decision to have the live greetings. Yeah. Which may have been the most awkward. I mean, Chris Harrison, that show is always awkward because Chris Harrison is just awkward. It's hard to believe the host show. It's just flat out awkward. Also, I think that if you have a lot of faith in Rachel as The Bachelorette, you just kind of wait until the show.

I don't think you pull that necessarily. I don't know. I think they didn't know what to do with the show. They have an hour to fill, right? You got to do something. I would rather watch 30 minutes of bloopers. I'd love to know more about what the girls are doing, whether just in the hotel rooms or when they're on the plane.

Bloopers kill every time. I don't like when they do the farting, though, with the bloopers. The farting and the burping, that's that you're letting me behind the wall that I'd never wanted to get behind. Also, I will say there's that. Don't want to go too far beyond the curtain, but it's also just like, who cares? Like, people fart, people burp. I've burped on air before, for sure.

I can do a podcast. Like, is that really blooper-worthy? like, eh, I'm not, I just like, show me, like, when they're having weird conversations. A blooper. A blooper is, like, their chair falls. Yeah, or, like, they're so drunk that they, like, do weird stuff. See, I know they have that footage. Yes, they definitely do. Wouldn't you rather see that?

I think that Jimmy should host the after the final rose. I don't know if he's overqualified now after his Oscar's success, but that show just desperately needs a sense of humor and somebody to grill them and push them. I mean, yeah, and Nick, I think there's something, there's a sense of humor lurking. in there somewhere that he's suppressing. Yeah. But the combo of them, with Chris Harrison interviewing him, that was like, even Zoe were letting her stay up late, my daughter,

even she was like, I'm going to go to bed. It was like 1040. Like she passed up being able to stay up late. That's amazing. That's the most insulting thing that could happen. Chris Harrison, he's basically like, he's like a terrible sideline reporter, like Juliet, how much does this winning the Bachelor mean to you? You know, it's like just these questions you can't even answer.

I think another good move would be to find out who Nick really liked of the women that were eliminated in the first half of the season. Any regrets? Yeah. Yeah. And we're just like, ask like just deeper questions about like, you know, what went on. Less about the future of their relationship. Like once you get to the after the final rows, like people are just divesting from these two. Like, you know, it's over.

So more about like the season on the whole. Oh, like almost like a director's commentary in the year. Hey, Nick, we're going to show you 10 moments from The Bachelor. Can you give us your thoughts retroactively on this, this, this, and this? As a major consumer of reality television, one of my favorite tropes of the genre is at the end of the season when they give you like a postmortem on what everyone's up to. I love that in the housewives. I'm furious when I don't get it when it's like Lisa Vanderpump is opening her fourth restaurant and she still loves dogs. That is true.

That could have been the last 20 minutes. Just tell me what everyone's up to. Like one of their weird endorsements. Have they moved since being on the show? Like the most awkward thing that happened to them since it's been airing. Like all of that stuff is so much more interesting than the future of Nick and Vanessa. They're obviously breaking up. They can't even choose a city to live in.

Astrid now realizes it was a mistake not to show Mark Cleavich. She's currently working in Hooters, hoping to get back on the show. Yeah, or like Brittany wishes she hadn't had to wear the loincloth outfit and it has not been able to look at leaves the same way ever since. Like just stuff like that. Like I guess they could also do that on the women tell all, but that's also a waste of an hour. Like all this stuff, like, would just be more, better if it was, like, more behind the scenes. I've never felt less confident of a couple taking it forward than Nick and

Nick and Vanessa, with one exception. With what is it? Jake Pavelka and whatever that lady's name was. That one was doomed from the get-go. It had no chance. It felt very Tom Cruise-Penelope-ish to me. And I just, there's no chance that are going to end up together. This one, it's like they don't know where they're going to live.

She might move to L.A. and she might start a foundation, but Nick, here's the, Nick's doing Dancing with the Stars. That's a relationship killer. Killer, absolute killer. You might as well just film a porn. What's the difference? Maybe we were some hot partner for 10 hours a day, like grinding on them and sweating and getting an awesome shape. And Nick's horny.

He's not going to be able to handle that. He could barely handle Corinne. No, there's no way. Corinne got him in the bouncy castle and he almost like had three kids with her. That was probably the peak of the season. It's just all been downhill since then. What a move. You know?

Yeah. I still enjoyed every moment. Sure. I think, I got to say, though, knowing Rachel was getting bounced was a monkey wrench in a bad way for the season. Yeah, it just made you less invested. You just knew she was out. When it got to the final three, I knew she wasn't going to make it. I think that they kind of knew.

I wonder if they knew that it was just, like, boring end of the season. And so they just sort of, like, moved on. There's like, well, the season is mostly over. The ratings are good. Let's focus on what's next. So do you think when it's down to the final two, they sneak in one more? a long time moment that they don't show? I hope they get that.

I was thinking about that last night. Because it's always like the guy, they always go over, or I guess Nick was the bachelor. So the girl comes over. There's a fireplace. They're at night. They're talking. He's trying not to tip his hand. At some point, they must kind of look at each other and go, hey, you want to, have you seen my room yet?

Last season, on that, like, final night, Ben went over to Jojo's or whatever, and they went in the bathroom and closed the door. And, like, no one could do what happened. Oh. So there's people figure out a way. Ben turning down Jojo was, it's still to me, one of the most amazing. It's shocking. Amazing moments of just testosterone strength I've ever seen. Like, your hormones are just going to lead you to Jojo.

She's just a... She's a babe. She's just like a babe. And she's just reeks of just sex. Yeah, she's beautiful. She totally does. But I'm happy he did. I don't know how he resisted.

We wouldn't know about the Rogers family drama. if Ben had chosen Jojo, so I'm thankful. No, thank God. The Rogers family drama is like the gift that keeps on giving. It's actually perfect for us at the ringer because it's like our sweet spot of The Bachelor, Celebrity, and Football. Like, there's like all of our worlds coming together. It was really a gift.

Jordan's a loser. Like, I actually feel bad for Aaron. Do you? I do. I think he, I think Jordan just, why, how did it flip? Tell me. I just think that if your whole family has rejected you, maybe you're the problem, not your family.

I don't know. For some reason, I'm still on Team Aaron for this. And it's not like he's on the paper. Patriots. He's one of the greatest, like, quarterbacks ever, right? So it makes up for a lot. I think, like, I think his brothers were probably trying to get him to do businesses and have him fun.

Like, hey, we want to start an Aaron Rogers sports bar and Chino. All right. Canterpoint. You fund this for us? Counterpoint. He is a weird relationship with his alma mater, Berkeley, even though he, like, has, like, kind of just about it. That's, that's interesting.

He doesn't have any friends on his team. That's what he's the quarterback. Okay, fine. But, like, that's still, like, I feel like Tom Brady might not have friends. but I feel like his teammates say nice things about him. Tom Brady's teammates love him. Okay. So, like. Garrett Blunt at the end of the Super Bowl,

you're the fucking best. They do, right? Yeah. Who's out here for him other than Olivia Munt? Can we get back to Vanessa? Yeah. She's just tough. It's a lot of work.

I would argue that she was, usually the person who wins the bachelor either goes for looks or whoever's just easy. Sure. And I don't mean easy, like in a half-sex with me. I mean, easy just like, oh, I'm with this person. She's just, she rolls with everything. She's got a good sense of humor. She's fun. That was Raven. Raven's just easy, although maybe there's a dark said there too. Vanessa's like work. Even in the after the row, she's analyzing

every decision and she's really answering Chris Harrison's questions. She's taking him seriously. Yeah, she's answering it like John Gruden would answer some question about the Washington game plan or something. And it's just a lot of work. I just don't think Nick wants to put in that work. This is a guy who's been on four reality shows and he's going on dancing with the stars. I agree with you. I think Nick is torn between like wanting to be a celebrity and also being attracted to really like intense women. And being attracted to we obviously as a type now. We know. Because Andy and Vanessa, I think there's a crossover. For sure. Very serious. I'm in charge. You're with the big boys now. Happy to call you out. I'm hot. I'm not that. I don't have that

big of a sense of humor. Don't mess with me. I'm going to tell you what to do. Get that sweater off. That's awful. Put this one on. Or like, I don't like that guy. You can't be friends with him anymore. Yeah. I can see them both. I don't care that he went to college of them. He's not coming over. Like, that's definitely Vanessa. Man, that's a lot of work, though. And he's going to end up with his Dancing with the Stars partner who's going to be named like Svetlana or something. I think he's got like the best dancer. He got like PETA, Murgatroyd or whatever her name is. I've never seen an episode of this show. Of ABC's smart. They should have stuck him with like. Like whoever the sexist one is.

Yeah, whoever. She's a mom, Pita. He can't break, he can't. Maybe they have a vested interest to keep it her. Well, I think the rumor is that Mike Fleiss doesn't like the Bachelor or Bacheloretts going on the show because it's bad for the relationship of the Bachelor. And so, and it's like in ABC's interest to have the relationships last. But if both Andrew Bogot and Dennis Schroeder had visa problems and they are employed by NBA teams, it's going to be hard for Vanessa to get a visa to America. Great point.

She might never get her. She might not. She might never come. I was thinking about that. It's like, I know Canada's not that far away, but, you know, immigration is tough. I think L.A. is going to be really tough for her. I don't think she'll like it. She's in Montreal right now.

She's surrounded by her fam. She's Queen B. Absolutely. I'm sure Montreal women, I've heard, are attractive, but I'm not like L.A. She's going to come to L.A. There's a million Vanessa's as pretty as she is. They're all over the place. Also, when you just are so comfortable in your routine and then you're taking out of it just for a guy, it's like what?

She moves here. She's not with him right away. He's practicing 10 hours a day. She meets the partner. There's a weird vibe between them. You can just see it coming. Also, like Vanessa, if she really likes her job as much as she says she does, she shouldn't leave it. Like, stay with your job.

Yeah, seriously. If you love it, if you love your family so much. Yes. Just keep it going. That's another problem. When you're in love with somebody, you're not negotiating with them during the honeymoon stage. You might have to move to a bunch of restaurants. Oh, and it would have watered.

It's like they're like Malcolm Butler and the Patriots, like trying to figure out their contract. Most people when they fall in love are like, I don't care where you are. I want to be there. Yeah, it's true. And also, it's almost like the two countries is like a convenient excuse for why it's not going well so far. And I think that's a takeaway.

Not close countries either. Yeah. It just doesn't seem like it's going well. No, I was watching it going. First of all, Nick seemed miserable. And I don't know whether he's nervous on camera or whether he's taking a beat. on the internet or I bet he's ready for it to be over. Yeah, or he's just, he saw the finish line and just wanted to get through.

Or Chris Harrison was putting him to sleep or all of those together. But he just did not seem, normally the bachelor is very touchy-feely and can't wait to keep. Rubbing on this arm, the leg. Yeah, it's like, oh my God, I can't keep my hands off this girl. I just picked there. We've been FaceTime each other. Like, I need to not like, not like that. That's actually a really good point.

Throughout this season, they were never that touchy with each other, those two. Like, he was much touchier with Korean, obviously. But even Rachel, like, I can think of times where he was, like, stroking her leg. I can't really think of them off the top of my head of Vanessa. They didn't really have that same physical chemistry. Corinne was the one he clicked with. Yeah. That was the one where they were just ready to go at it at any point.

Ultimately, I think Nick is something of a narcissist. And when they're like, I think we're too similar. I think that it's true. I feel like he went for someone that's like a familiar type to him, but not someone he's like necessarily that attracted to. Honestly, what are the three reasons he went with Vanessa other than she's smoking hot? She's just so beautiful. Give me three other reasons.

I just want to say that I also I like, I think I would like her. Like everyone in the season. Vanessa and Rachel are the ones I'd most want to spend time with. But no, I don't know. He likes being challenged. I don't know why he chooses her. I never saw them together and went, wow, those two. Those two belong.

She speaks similarly to him. Like, she's verbal. I don't know. I'm suspicious that she was on the show. It's just weird. How is she not able to find somebody? I don't know, Bill. I feel like most of the people, they go on The Bachelor and it's like, and then the ride at the end and then it comes out, why?

It's like, this always happens to me. I just can't find someone. Every time I'm close, the rug gets pulled out from under me. The rug's getting pulled out of Vanessa? Like, she looks like Catherine Zeta Jones. It also seems like her life is going great. Like, there's sort of like nothing for her to leave behind. Let me ask you something.

If Catherine Zeta Jones was on the, 1999 Catherine Zeta Jones was just on The Bachelor, wouldn't you think that was weird. Yeah. I would love it though. I would love it though. I would love it, but yes, it would be weird. This is bizarre. So I thought of something yesterday because they had January Jones who's come out as a

real Bachelor fanatic. Yeah, she wants to be on it. So I think that's really interesting. Would you rather have her as the Bachelorette or would you rather have her just as a contestant? Ooh. Because it actually would be more fun if she's a contestant. Yeah. This is January.

She's an actress. Also, the other women would lose their minds. Yeah, they go crazy. They think the whole deck was really. That's a great idea. And a great career move for her. Totally. And then plus she has a kid.

Nobody's ever won with a kid. That's a great call. And then she can be the Bachelorette. She can earn it. Put in your time as the Bachelors as a contestant and then graduate to Bachelorette status. Then I had another idea. Oh, I love it. You're on a roll.

Then I thought it's a bachelor. It's a mini season. There's only 10 people. So it's like a year. It should be eight weeks. It'll be short in season. All 10 people are famous. Oh, I like it.

They're all actresses, models. They're all people you would know who have an IMDB or a Wikipedia or something. They're all celebrities for some reason. One's an athlete, like Sue Birds on it. As soon as Kate Upton and Justin Burlander breakup, let's greenlight this idea. Because I want Kate Upton in there. Kate Upton. Nearly broken up, Kate Upton.

So Sports Illustrated swimsuit model, January Jones older actress. Then you get like a younger actress. You get somebody who's like 20, like Abigail Breslin, something like that. Like, wow, she's too young. Why is she on this? She's only 20. Oh, my God. You get some singer, like Lord's on it.

And, like, Kendrick, she'd be like the cool, quirky one and, like, would be, like, really verbal. She's too successful. Do you think so? I think she's on the way down. Oh, you think it's over? Yeah. I don't think she's had, like, a true hit in a while. I was thinking, what's her name, Aubrey Plaza?

It's almost ready. That would be a good one. Interesting. But, yeah, so you get the 10. And it's like they blow it out. It's like when Survivor has like the celebrity, the All-Stars. This is like Bachelor Celebrity Edition. It's just a guy and he thinks he's going to film the 25 person like he's there for

format. It's like, no, actually these are just 10 celebrities and he's starstruck. You'd probably be so overwhelmed. It'd probably be harder than ever to make a decision because you'd be like, I feel like you just like, how do you even evaluate women on that level? And Sharon Stone's on there too. I forgot to mention her age 60. Yeah, Sharon Stone or Diane Lane.

Oh, I love. Like Diane Lane. She's not with Josh Brulham anymore? No, not. I don't ask why I know this. I might research stuff like this at Ristrarah. I'd like to check it on Diane Lane, what of my favorite actresses ever.

I was actually thinking about who is my favorite actress, and Diane Lane was in the running. She's really good. But the answer is Reese Witherspin. Diane Lane, Jean Short's Perfect Storm is probably as beautiful as a guest. She's just great looking. Yeah. But I like the idea of like there's a celebrity apprentice type.

This is a great idea. it, right? Yeah. Well, we know people at ABC. It's true. We had the other idea. We're giving them. But an athlete?

No, Bachelor's season in two hours. Oh, yeah. Whole season in two hours. Yeah. Oh, today it's the Lorenzo season from 9 to 11. We're just banging them out. That reminds me, did you look at our rankings from yesterday, the best bachelors of all time? I did.

Controversial. Extremely controversial. I hated them almost as much as I hated the fast food. It was the most insane thing. Well, having Brad Wilmack be number one. Outrageous. That was a terrible season. It was absurd.

All he did was apologize all season. What the hell was that? I'm going to therapy. Yeah. The other one that's just indefensible is Jake Pavell cut number three. Jake's a sociobath. But that's what made it great, though. I guess, but come on.

He had the highest unintentional comedy. I thought Bob Guinea is everything I wanted from The Bachelor. You know, I wish we could have some cross. I wish we could send Bob Guinea back in time and he could be on the challenge like six years ago. That just would have been great. Bob Guinea hit on everyone, including Chris Harrison during that season. He was ready to, he was our best chance for a bachelor threesome. It could have happened.

We just don't know about it. At the row ceremony where he's just like, hey, come here and just pulls two over. But he is to me, he's the peak. This happened, I think, unreal. It's kind of surprising that two women have never, like, found each other and then, like, ended up being together. That happened on the, oh, no, you know where it happened? The Australian Bachelor. That's what happened.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great. I wish for that to happen on the American Bachelor. I thought Ben Higgins got shortchanged in the rankings. Of course he did. I was upset with the Ben Higgins ranking, and he's been on the pod. He's a rare. It's like, if you're going to shortchange Ben Higgins, there's got to be a good reason.

I don't feel like the reason was good enough. I wholeheartedly agree. He's been really solid. That just shows you that we have editorial independence here because I would never rank Ben that low. Well, he's also, there's two types of batchers, right? There's like the boring. I hate to use the word boring. The maybe kind of laid-back, non-controversial one, who you're throwing them in

this crazy world and he and these all types of women varying from super crazy to crazy to maybe not that crazy are just he's in this world and he's just experiencing it like an alien or you have somebody like Nick who you know is like one of the hornyer bachelor types who's trying to balance like how horny is versus whether he wants to find a wave ben higgins was a really good version of that first yeah the first version of the bachelor it was actually a good season with Ben. It was a good season. Yeah, it was entertaining.

I forgot that Ben Flagenet picked Courtney Robertson. Yeah. Incredible stuff. That was more ill-fated than... Nick and Vanessa? Yeah, I short-changed them. That was another one where it was like, there's no chance. There's just no chance.

Yeah. So did you believe Vanessa when she said she didn't watch the fantasy sweet parts? I think that's a lie. And I think I'm not going to go as far as through the Roger Goodell. You're a fucking liar. If you believe, I'm not going to do that rant. But I just don't think any woman would not watch the fantasy. and this sweet parts.

I don't believe it. I think I would not watch, knowing myself. You wouldn't watch? I wouldn't watch, but I also would never go on the show. I would never agree to dating someone who's also dating other people. How do you not watch? It's just going to be the great unknown for the rest of your life? You're just always going to wonder what happened.

Aren't there certain things about your wife? You just don't want to know? I'm just like, nope, just don't want to know. Just happen on TV? Like all her friends and family watched it. She's just going to be the only one who didn't know what happened? I don't know. I would have a really hard time.

I think I would make Nick sit down with me. And I'd be like, tell me everything that happened, extreme detail. We're not leaving this room until you confess everything. Like, I would basically, like, turn it into an interrogation, but I wouldn't want to watch the edit. I'd want to know what happened without watching. I have a hot take. I don't think he had sex with either or the other two. I agree with that. That's why I don't believe the Raven thing. I think there might have been some strong third base, and I think he might have rounded third base and thought about heading for home and then fought it off because he knew he was going to pick Vanessa. I actually agree with that.

He seemed so worried about being a good guy this whole time that I don't think he would do that. If he was going to do some dirty work, Corinne makes the final three. That's a great point. But the good news for us is Corinne and Nick will be reunited at some point. Yeah, they have a future together. Vanessa is going to move to LA. She'll be back in Montreal in six months. No offense, Vanessa.

I'm not against you finding love. Come through, Vanessa. I'd love to talk to you. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I do feel like she might have a sense of humor. We just didn't see it on the show. I feel like I would be good friends with her.

I really like her. I like what she's about. I want her to have some laughs, yes. but I just feel like she and Rachel seem like real women. They just do. Like I know that we have a lot of opinions on her because we know that type. You know what I mean? It's harder to have a lot of like strong opinions about like, I don't know,

Jasmine, the one who strangled Nick because like she's not like someone that we know or whatever. I know you talked about this last week, but what was the name of the girl who feuded with Corinne? Oh, Taylor. Has anyone ever gotten more demolished in the girls' tell? special than Taylor? No. I mean, it was bad. It seemed like everyone hated her.

We almost needed like the coach to call time out and put the subs in for or something. Seemed like everyone hated her. It was a demolition. She's really young. I feel sorry for her. She's like 23 or 24. First of all, she cried on the hot seat. Yeah.

And not like, and she cried because it was going so badly, which I've never seen before. Right. And then in the in the crowd start when she was in the with the group afterwards, to rally and get it and then it just, it was just a complete flame out. It's a really bad sign for you and none of the other women like you. There's like a lot of friendships that come out of this and she just has none. Well, I've said this before. It's that was my reversal on Corinne.

I was like, oh, people like her. She must not be that bad. Yeah. I think women, in a lot of ways, animal instinct kicks in on this show and they just kind of sense who's the difference between good and not good. Can you imagine? And they gravitate toward the good, usually, eventually. Yeah.

With Corinne, they kind of realized, like, all right, she took her top off, but she's not a bad person. And you probably, well, I would do it too, given the opportunity, so whatever. Yeah, and also, can you imagine at this point, particularly like you're so conditioned to being looking at your phone, being on the internet, like to being deprived of all that for three months or however long, 10 weeks, who cares? Like that's inside. I don't know what I would do. Who am I without my cell phone at this point? You just drink champagne like Corinne did? Yeah, good strat.

You want to know what my daughter's take was in this whole thing? Let's wrap it up with Zoe's take. She couldn't believe that she just didn't understand Vanessa and Nick together. Yeah. If a kid sees that it's not right. A kid, my 11-year-old daughter was like, these two have no chemistry. That's one problem. She knew he wasn't going to pick Raven because she was freaked out by Raven a little bit.

Obviously, Corinne, she both liked and was horrified by. Good. She just thought Rachel was like, why wouldn't he? She was just confused. Like, why wouldn't you pick Rachel? It's a great point. Why wouldn't you pick Rachel? Isn't Rachel the one that makes them a...

Like, she just was confused by it. I was like, well, I don't know. You're right. She's like the real truth teller, you know? She's new to this world. She can see it purely. Got to stand by what she says. Bill, thanks for coming on, as always.

It was a pleasure. I don't mean to try to get Chris Harrison fired, but I think it's time for a change. We're going to talk about this further. Maybe we'll do a post about it on the ringer. I think Kimmel needs to take over the franchise a little bit. Just put and exit into his little giant ABC Empire. At least have them host a last.

show. I mean, now we know he's, like, one of the best hosts ever with the way he handled the Oscar situation. Yeah, I would lean on Kimmel if I was The Bachelor, and I would try to put it, I would go from 9 to 11. Ooh. And so that it feels a little closer to Jimmy's time slot. And then also, Quantico's not leading into a show either.

It would be another thing else. Also, now that we've crossed this sexual Rubicon with The Bachelor, like, has there any going back? So if you're going to really lean into, like, the sexual aspect of it, move it later in the night. After your daughter goes to bed. This dancing with the Star Sting is not going to end well. Okay. Thanks, Bill. We're going to talk to Roger Sherman from The Ringer, but first, let me tell you about some of my sponsors.

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Again, that's www.catser.com slash bachelor, $50 off. Terms and conditions apply. On the phone, we've got Roger Sherman, the ringer's Bachelor recapper. Hi, Roger. Hey, all, The Bachelor is over. It's done. How do you feel? Well, I'm, you know, having watched Nick for three quarters of my adult life,

I feel like there's a part of me that's missing now, now that I know that he's in a relationship and not searching for love. But, I mean, then again, who knows if he's actually in a relationship of any sort, considering it did. see very romantic. Okay. Thank you for bringing that up. The situation with Vanessa.

What is your best guess as to why he selected Vanessa? Like what do you think Nick was like, yes, this is why I want this gal? It's tough because like all of the scenes with Raven that are like them laughing and, you know, having a great time and all the scenes of him with Vanessa are them like seriously debating their future. and like, which just seems less fun, but I don't know, maybe it's like, it was like a more serious, deeper connection that we couldn't tell the seriousness. I don't know.

It was just strange. I wonder if, like, that actually was the tenor of their relationships or if it was just an attempt to, like, you know, make it seem like a little bit more of a fair competition because I thought pretty early on that Vanessa, was a forerunner. He seemed very serious about that relationship. Totally.

And then towards the end, it was just like them kind of clashing about the logistics of life. Logistics are really hard for them. Yeah, I mean, and to be fair, that's like sort of an actual thing that people in relationships actually deal with. Yeah, for sure. Which isn't something we always see on The Bachelor, you know. On The Bachelor, we often just see them, you know, giggling. and going on, you know, ridiculous dates in various methods of transportation that normal humans don't go on, which they did. They went in a zero-gravity plane and fell in love by vomiting on each other.

That was bizarre. Like, just truly bizarre. But then they sort of actually had some real adult human conversations, and they all seemed to go badly. And then they got together. I think the point where I believe they, like he was like, yes, she's the one,

was when she confronted Nick about the current bouncy castle situation. I just feel like Vanessa had it on lock ever since then, which is like maybe counterintuitive when you've got Karen around and Raven, who seems like so much fun. But I just feel like that's the kind of thing that Nick responds to.

It's like he needs, he thrives on conflict. Yeah, it would want this to happen. And he was like, wait, I do want this to happen. Right.

Right. It clicked that this was a real relationship, and I think maybe he sought out that as opposed to the various extremely good television relationships he had going, considering how many television relationships he's been in. Maybe he substituted, maybe he saw this, you know, relationship where he had these, you know, serious talks and was like, wow, this is. different from the 13 other television couples I've been a part of. Totally. As if that's like the determinant of what will make a relationship last in life. Between Andy, Caitlin, and now Vanessa. And let's throw a Raven in there.

Who do you think he had the most chemistry with, visible chemistry of those four? And, oh, God, I'm forgetting the girl from Paradise. Oh, Jen. Jen, that's her name. You're right. Jen, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, her included as well. Well, they all had brown hair

Which I think is telling Nick's got a tight That's the most important thing about You know, they could really just skip through the actual Three months of television And just be like, well, Nick likes brunettes But then we wouldn't have your recaps That would be so sad

It seems like Raven. Yeah, I think Raven too That's the only person who, like you can think of multiple times that Nick smiled. Like the rest of the rest of the relationships are like so serious and brooding. Like there's, I can think with Caitlin, there wasn't really possible in paradise, but like with Caitlin and Vanessa, there's so many couch scenes where like they're facing each other, even though a couch is not the best piece of furniture for facing

one another. And they're like talking something out or like he's trying to like, I don't know, like woo one of them or something. He's just a serious dude. I think they're going to break up because like they were afraid. They are too similar. I think that is legit. That's such a funny like, like qualms that they decided was a problem. Well, it might be. If your thing is that you're really serious, if your thing is that you're serious, that it might be a problem.

Not that crazy. Yeah. I don't know. It was in, like, just having more fun with her. It seemed like he was enjoying that more, but he also seemed to prefer Vanessa clearly. It was like he was having fun with this one person

and also sort of considering the idea of being in a relationship with the other, which I guess are two different things. I was wondering. Even though they shouldn't be. Yeah. Of course. He definitely seems to separate those in his head, which I don't really know why. Also, like, he hasn't learned enough lessons for being on the show three times, plus Paradise.

I can't wait for him to just have his own permanent show. I don't think he'll ever going to happen. Maybe he can have a web show. Maybe we should host it on the ringer.com. one thing that you wrote about in your recap was that the actual the actual winner well you call it the MVP but I'm going to call her the ringer's winner is raven first of all we have so many raven fans of the ringer that she's the one who should be really getting her spin off I'm kind of disappointed she goes to go into paradise because I feel like she's too good for it but uh she pulled

a really good power move which was when he said to her I'll miss you she responded with I know which is like what a zinger what she probably I don't know if we can give her credit for like having that lined up, but she made it just seem like she was ready to be done with Nick at that point. Yeah, she definitely was stronger than him at that moment. She got the Arkansas Han Solo is what I called her. She had so much more poise in that moment. It was impressive. Yeah, she went on TV.

She, like violently. That guy is never going on a date again. No. I like feel a little sorry for him. No, like just because his reputation has been so damaged. Because not, first he was, she talked about how she like basically assaulted him. And then she then, now we know we can't give a woman an orgasm. So it's two tough, tough things. Depending on who you are, one might seem worse than the other. I like the, I like that she got into both branches of calling someone trash, like both as a person and as a sexual partner. I also sort of hope that they actually just had like a perfectly amicable breakup and she just decided to like for fun like I'm going to go on national television and just ruin this person's life.

And there's no way he could refute it. He has tried. He's talked to us weekly and or people. But it hasn't gotten much traction. Like there's not, I'm not seeing a lot of like aggregated news posts about Raven's ex-boyfriend speaks. No one, because I don't think anyone really wants to know from Raven's ex-boyfriends. Like, better working with the picture of him that she's painting. I don't care what's real.

This is Bachelor World. What Raven says goes. But yeah, she established herself as more powerful than that, dude. She faced getting dumped by Nick with complete pride and all talking about how Nick and Vanessa are going to break up. It's true. And so Raven definitely comes out number one. And also she's not in her relationship with Nick, which is, which is, think. Yeah, sure.

Probably means that she'll have a longer dating life than him. Or like, I feel like her next relationship will be longer than Nick and Vanessa's. But who knows? Nick and Vanessa is just like, there's so little evidence to believe they're going to make it. I can't, I can't really point to anything to be like, yeah, that seems like it's going to work out. And it's very, very rare, I think, that is the case of these relationships. Like, I feel like you can, like, often talk yourself into them. But they are so committed to being honest, but how difficult it's been that that's, like,

kind of all we see. And, and I think actually Ben and Lauren did that, too, where they were like, yeah, it's been really hard. It's been really hard for Lauren. But Ben's, like, so relentlessly optimistic that it was, like, more convincing that they can maybe, like, be together. Whereas with Nick and Vanessa, they're just both so serious. I don't know.

I kind of feel for them. I 99% but last night I got turned around a little bit. Really? Because like I'm talking I'm not talking on the show because I'm saying afterwards.

So obviously Nick's life goal is to be on TV. Right. But I also didn't know that Vanessa was briefly like attempted to do acting and like was like a video podcast host. Yeah.

The podcast part was a real revelation. Yeah. She, like, hosted a video game podcast with, like, a nerdy dude where she was, like, the attractive video game talker person. She kind of was like an Olivia Munn. Yeah. It was called GameLoft podcast. And she was literally trying to be Olivia Munn, Circa, attack of the show. Yeah.

And she did that. And she, like, had some roles in Canadian TV things like Blue Mountain. state. So, okay, so anyway, the one percent of me that thinks they can make it, these both of them as people who are just hoping for new angles to explore their fame, in which case they can stay together in that lane as, as human, who don't like each other but have mutually decided that this is the best method for them to achieve celebrity, which is all I really see of The Bachelor is that. That's the number one way I think about it because I'm way too pragmatic about it and don't think that anyone is actually getting a serious relationship. For how much that she's talked about her job and how much she loves her job, it is kind of strange that there's no acknowledgement of her previous.

And the fact that she went moving to L.A., it's weird that there's no acknowledgement of her previous attempts to be an actress or like a TV personality. Like that seems like really crucial information that could be easily worked into some kind of interview because she talked about those two things. her job in L.A. so much. I don't know why it hasn't come up. I mean, I think you have to assume with a lot of people on both The Bachelor and The Bachelor at, like, at some point they have attempted to be seen in some other way. It seems like it happens with every – it seems like if you dig hard enough with every single person, even the ones like Vanessa, I never thought you would – you would – like she just didn't seem

Like, that was something that motivated her. She was very like, yeah, I've, like, very briefly watched this show and my job is my passion. So I didn't really expect that. But I think anyone of any person you dig hard enough, it's like you'll find them on some pilot for something or in some ad somewhere. It's the, you can call it the Vanessa rule from now on. She would have been the last person I expected to. I mean, it is the best method for getting yourself seen by many millions of people. It's true.

If you can get it. So, congrats to her for moving on for video podcasts and on the national television. Video podcast is still not really a thing, you know. We've had podcasts for a while now. We're talking on one right now. We even do them here sometimes. What? But video podcasts, I don't know.

Not quite a thing yet. Just that's my personal take. Vanessa, good luck. It's a better, I think when they tried to make vlog a phrase, and I still see that word sometimes, but the sound of that word is just so off-putting to me. I think just call it a video, and it's fine. Yeah, the video, exactly.

It is what it is. They were very insistent on saying video podcast on that show. Vanessa was good at it. Raj, as a bachelor scholar, what do you think of the finale being in the cold weather place versus like the Caribbean? You know, I love that. I think my favorite, one of my favorite things about the show is thinking of, is when they, you know, try to, you know, shoehorn in a place, like a destination that doesn't quite belong.

Like, I just remember laughing through when, on Ben's season, they went to, like, South Dakota, and everyone was just miserable, and there was, like, one restaurant. And, like, I love when they do this. I just love gauging how miserable everyone is. Me too. And Finland is beautiful. I thought it was great. Finland in December is not a place you want to be.

It's extremely cold and the sun doesn't come out. It's true. That's very true. I also, I like that then, like, it makes sense that you're inside and sitting close together because it's cold. It's just sort of like it all makes a lot more sense. Yeah, like I feel like Nick's family that's just in that cabin for 36. straight hours and then they flew them back to America. It was a major

miscalculation for them to have Raven meet his family twice when she doesn't win. Like, why do they need to put the family through that? Yeah. I wonder if they expected her to go that far when they introduced her to the family the first time.

I mean, that first time was sort of an accident because they were planning and going to South Carolina and got rained out and had to go to Milwaukee. and just come up with some fake dates, and that was the best they could do. But, yeah, I agree.

And, well, the good thing was there were reindeer everywhere, and there were husky puppies. It's true. I know you care a lot about animals. Anyone who followed the ring or Instagram story last week knows that from your reports in the NCAA. The husky puppies were really good. The reindeer were really good. And I don't know.

I also thought there were some great brooding shots of Nick, like, in the cold, like just exhaling and, being visible, but yeah. I thought you said brass being visible. And I was like, no, that was earlier in the season. I can't imagine it being, I can't imagine it having been as fun for them as if they had gone so they could be outdoors regularly. Yeah, I think it represented Nick's personality, which is icy. So it worked out.

Ooh, you've been saving that. I have. Roger, thank you for recapping The Bachelor all season. And we're calling into this podcast. It's been a joy to have you. Thanks for having me. I will sort of miss Nick. They were in Finland, but there was a little bit of Stockholm syndrome there where I've come to love Nick.

Nailed it, Roger. That's a signature Roger Bar. I wasn't saving that one up. I wasn't saving that one up. I just started thinking about Finland. Okay. We'll talk to you soon. Thank you.

Bye. All right. Thanks for having me. Today's episode was brought to you by Ringering University with March Madness here. It starts on Thursday. Our college basketball experts, Tate Frazier, and Mark Titus tell you everything you need to know about this year's tournament. You can listen and subscribe to their podcast by searching Ringering University on iTunes, Stitcher SoundCloud or wherever you get podcasts.