The Press Box - Ep. 91: 'NFL Draft Podcast' With Robert Mays and Mallory Rubin

Episode Date: April 15, 2016

Mays and Mallory make sense of the Rams-Titans trade involving the no. 1 pick, discuss prospect of the week Emmanuel Ogbah, break down the top DB's, make their case for Mackensie Alexander, and wrap it up with a mailbag. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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My name is Robert Mays. I'm a writer at Ringer. And joining me about five feet away is Mal here, Rubin. Mel, how are you? I'm wonderful. It's so good to have you here in our Brandsbank and new office. Welcome. Welcome to Ringer headquarters.

It's great. I am very happy to be here. It's beautiful outside. I always enjoy visiting. And we have stuff to talk about that also pertains to Los Angeles. Is something going on in football? I woke up this morning. My computer said about 8 a.m., which freaked me out,

and then I realized it was 6 a.m. Because I'm on the Pacific Time situation. And also woke up to the news that something happened. The Los Angeles Rams traded all the draft picks so they could get the number one draft pick in the NFL draft. And there are 8 million things to talk about with this. It is the biggest thing that's happened draft-wise since the RG3 trade, probably bigger. because it's the number one pick. Overall, the haul, if we're just going to lay it out,

the Rams get the number one pick and Tennessee's fourth round pick. The Titans get 15, two second round picks this year, a third round pick, next year's first round pick, and next year's third round pick. So the haul, when you compare the two, is a little bit less than Washington had to give up to get RG3, but it's still a bounty. I mean, it is a franchise altering trade

for both teams. But for the Titans, it's a way to kind of stock the war chest. And for the Rams, it's a way, I would assume, to go get their guy? The Titans now have six of the top 76 picks this year. Think about that for a minute. That is incredible. They also have some dude named Marcus Marietta. They also acquired DeMarco Murray.

They've got a few players on that team. Little pride of your alma mater there, Doriel Green Beckham. They're not doing so bad. I'm not sure he's the pride of my alma mater. but thank you. Just testing you to see if the time difference has affected your awareness. I'm all set.

I didn't drink a barrel of coffee, so I'm ready to go here. This sort of feels like if I had gone to our boss, Bill Simmons, and said, Bill, I have a beautiful 2013 Honda fit. Okay. There's a dent on the rear passenger door, but it moves, it turns on every day.

It's definitely going to get you from point A point B, do you want it? And he said, not only do I want it, but I'm going to give you my beautiful luxury sports car convertible in exchange just because. You really think that's true. This is insane. I, all, first of all, if you're the Rams, obviously they're moving up to get Ezekiel Elliott. So I think it makes sense. You put Zeke and Todd Gurley in the backfield, you run the Wildcat, and that's the basis of your offense. So I don't understand why you're so against this, because that sounds like a great idea to me. I thought that the Rams thought that because the Patriots don't have a first-round pick,

Bill Belichick can be acquired in the draft, and so they're training up to number one to get rid of walking 500 record Jeff Fisher and actually get a coach who knows what he's doing. I love how Jeff Fisher has now helped the Titans more as a coach of an opposing team than he did when he was actually leading them. With these kind of situations, we're tempted to say, all right, this was terrible for one team and great for another and whatever else. I'm not going to do that with this. I was talking to Barnwall early this morning, and of course, he's all analytical Barnwell,

and it's like, well, they have all these holes and shut up, Barnwell. No, get out of here with this. If you're the Rams, you need a quarterback. I don't subscribe to the idea that they're a quarterback away. I think that they have holes elsewhere, but we'll get to that in a second. if you have the 15th pick every single year, which you're going to have when you're 8 and 8. And if you're a walking 8 and 8,

those are the picks you're going to have. You're going to pick in the middle of the draft, and it's going to be really hard to get a guy. I understand that there are exceptions to these rules. We have your Andy Dalton's and your Derek cars and whatever. But if you look at history, the number one pick, the number two pick, those are the guys that eventually become franchise quarterback.

And there was no other way to get there but this. I understand it's a lot to give up. I understand that you, again, sacrifice four to five starters potentially, but you need a quarterback to win, and they need to get one. They needed to get one, and this is the way they did it. It's a ton to give up, but I don't hate it. If you have Jared Goff and you add Jared Goff to that defense and you have Todd Gurley, this is a team that could win 10 games this year with competent quarterback play.

They didn't have it last year. They had something far from it. So I don't know. I don't mind it for the Rams. I really, really don't. I have so many questions for you that I honestly don't know where to begin. Okay, we'll just like, tick them off. We'll just sort of, we'll just roll with it.

What's the biggest one that you have? The biggest one that I have, this is not actually the biggest one that I have, but I can't help myself here. The biggest one that I have is whether or not you have seen this Adam Schaeft or tweet that says, Rams and Titans agreed to trade at 9.30 p.m. Eastern on Wednesday and withheld announcements so nothing would detract from Kobe Bryant's last NBA game. So who's the huge Kobe stand in that group? Do you think it's less need? I feel like Les really appreciates Kobe's game.

Honestly, is there a chance that this was just like we are now citizens of L.A., so we have to respect the L.A. sports moment that's happening. Did you watch that game? I did. I had the Warriors game on one TV. I had Kobe on the other. Two living room TVs, of course. I was in a hotel, so I didn't have that option.

I went to my friendly neighborhood, Los Angeles bar, watched both games. I was ecstatic about both. I was cheering so hard for Kobe to get to 50 shots. I was literally just screaming at the TV hoping he was going to get there. He did not let you down. So I understand where these guys are coming from. I mean, I was a citizen of Los Angeles yesterday, too, and I wouldn't have wanted anything to detract from that.

So, okay, that's point one. Point one. What's your next question? Next question. You just, you know, you just sort of seem to be assuming that your romance boo, Jared Gough, is going to be the object. He has my heart. The object of the Rams' affections.

Do you not think that Carson Wince is in the movie? here. Here's the reason I don't. I don't think Carson Wentz can start right away. Even if you think he's going to be a high-quality NFL starter down the road, it made way more sense for a team like Cleveland who has RG3, a little bit of a smokescreen, to say, okay, fine, we're going to throw RG3 out there to the wolves. We'll let Wens get ready for a year or two.

If you give up two years worth of drafts and nine million draft picks for a dude, you can't put him on the bench. And I don't think Carson Wentz is ready. I think the guy who's ready to start right now is Jared Gough, and that's why. It just seems to make way more sense for him to be the guy in this situation. Okay. Next question. It's fair for you to say that you're not ready to critique the number of picks they gave up,

that you have to go get your guy and you have to do what it takes to go get your guy. Do you think that they had to go to number one to get their guy? If the Browns are going to take a quarterback at two, could the Rams have potentially swapped with, say, the Ravens at six, and beaten out San Francisco, the next clear team looking for a quarterback to get the second QV off the board. Would that have been sufficient?

No, because you have one guy in mind when you do this. I don't think you're picking between two guys. You don't just saying, well, we'll get one of the quarterbacks. You do this with someone in mind. And if you're worried that the Browns are going to take that guy, then you have to go jump them. To get Carson wins. Do you have any other questions?

I do. What else do you have for me? I want to talk about just what they gave up a little bit more. Because, again, it's fair. to say sort of in the abstract that you have to do what it takes to get your guy. But this team has a lot of holes to fill, to quote our man Bill Barnwell here. All right. Let's go through the holes. Let's go through the holes. What are your holes that you're pointing out here? Because I agree, but I think there's an answer to all of these problems

that you're going to do. Okay. So let's go through the main weaknesses on the team, the main areas that they could have addressed in pretty clear, easy ways if they'd stayed put at 15. Okay. First one, receiver. That's number one for me. You got your man Laquan Treadwell or your man Josh Jackson just sitting there at 15, perfectly reasonable time to take either of those guys and the Rams who literally have not had a 1,000-yard receiver since what, Torrey Holton 2007 when, by the way, I was still in college and I'm like 100 years old now. So that was a really long time ago. Kenny Britt and Tavon Austin barely combined for 1,000 yards last year. This team desperately needs a receiver.

And here's the thing. If you're going to put all of this into getting your franchise quarterback, you have to give him someone to throw to. And now they're going to have a harder time doing that. That's absolutely true. I think that was the one glaring hole that made the most sense to me at that point in the draft and with this roster construction and with the history of this team in that position. That being said, if you have Case Keenum, it doesn't matter if he's thrown in the McChrydwell. and the other holes, I understand and see them, but I think there's a response to all of them. Cody Davis is not a reasonable NFL starter to free safety.

That is a concern. So that's a spot I'm worried about. But elsewhere, I really like the guys in the secondary that they have. I know they lost Norris Jenkins. E.J. Gaines missed all of last season. That is the pride of my alma mater, by the way, Mr. E.J. Gaines. He missed all of last year after a very promising rookie year. I think losing Jenkins and putting Gaines in for that is not that much of a drop.

off. I really don't. Teager McDonald's is a really, really, really good player. Tramaine Johnson franchise, he's there. Solid secondary. We know about the front seven. Barron, Ogletree coming back. I like William Hayes a lot. He's going to be the starter there now that long is gone. Finished with top 10 defense in pass and run in the DVOA. This is a really, really good group, and I think it's going to stay that way. Offensively, receiver conceded. The line is a problem, But you also have three 23-year-old starters on that line, three guys that you drafted within the last three years. Greg Robinson is only 23 years old. He's kind of a nightmare right now, but you can't give up on him.

Roger Saffold got almost $20 million in guaranteed money. He's your left guard. Tim Barnes, another Missouri guy who I wish he was better, but he's not. I was going to say they might have taken Ryan Kelly at 15. I wouldn't hate that. So center is the one spot on that line that you could make an upgrade and you could argue they could do it now. Right guard, Jemann Brown, third rounder last year, not worth giving up on. Stein second rounder last year, both guys 23.

So you need to be better on the offensive line, but there's not a clear way to say, well, we just need to get rid of this dude now because they're all young and you hope they take a step forward. This is me really rationalizing the fact that the Rams desperately needed a quarterback, and I don't hate that they did this. But that's my argument. It's just... I understand that there are holes in my argument as there are holes in the Rams roster, but that's

what I'm going with. Okay, so let's talk a bit more about linebacker and corner. Okay. What about the fact that this is the first year and eight years that James Larnitis isn't there in the middle? Not concerned. Leadership? You think Al-Gogaltry is just ready to slide right in and take over that unit? You don't think they need to build depth there?

I mean, I think you do, but I don't think you can do it to do it to 15. I mean, I think you can do it with a guy off the street. That's not a concern to me. Okay, so, and you mentioned Janoris Jenkins. They also have, Akamers is on that roster as well. So you have three move linebackers on that team, and most of the same. the time they're playing with two because you're going to have Joyner as your nickel corner. So they have some stuff there.

I love Joyner. I'm curious whether they've tried to put him at safety. Interesting. If they try to do him, McDonald, Johnson, but then you have a little nickel corner situation. But how those guys stack up is going to be interesting to me because they sign Cody Sensible. I don't like him. But if he's your nickel corner, you put Joyner at free safety, I think those are your best five pieces. Okay.

So you're not worried that with Janoris Jenkins heading out of town and I don't like to Norse Jenkins very much I should let you okay all right well that that informs this analysis a bit Johnson not locked locked up long term right so if he's gone after this season go check out their cap I don't understand why they didn't sign him long term but if they want to they can okay all right so you don't think that they needed to address all of these needs right now I think the thing that I just can't get over of course and we've talked about this in the past two episodes is that I don't think that either of these quarterbacks gotf or once is a sure thing so to give up all of this to give up the flexibility and the sheer number of bodies and the ability to build depth

and address areas of concern, they would have had a first round pick at 15 and then two second round picks. They could have gotten a quarterback receiver and an offensive lineman or a linebacker and address those needs in a meaningful way with great players. And now they're not going to be able to do that. They're going to have Jared Tiny Hands golf and then like no one. none of this is going to matter if Jared Goff is bad. Right. None of it. Exactly.

None of this is going to matter if Jared Goff is good. If Jared Goff is one of the ten best quarterbacks in the league three years from now, we're never going to talk about this again. So this doesn't happen a lot, though, right? Like a team moving up to number one doesn't happen a lot, period. A team giving up this much to move up to one of the top two picks in the draft doesn't happen a lot, period. And there's a reason. It's because you need players and you need control and also because it's.

It's such a risk. Like you don't want to end up in the Ricky Williams situation where you gave up a franchise to get one player. The Robert Griffin situation. And well, that is, of course, one of the really fascinating and weird wrinkles of this is that the Rams were the team that duped the Redskins in the Griffin trade. They were the ones that saw the situation and exploited it and collected the picks for a guy who was not a sure thing, right? Because that's the thing. These guys are not sure things. You're in love.

I would have done it. It's just, I would have done it. That's, that's where I'm sitting. So let me ask you this. If I'm, if I'm less need yesterday and I'm sitting there and I'm kind of just hanging up the phone after the call me back if this is a thing. And I'm sitting there staring into space and really thinking about the history of my friend, the next step of my franchise. In fact, I'm moving to LA. I've lived this life with all these dudes for so long. Your Bradford's and your Keenums and your Foleses. And you believe that he's the guy. I would have done it. That that's really as simple as it gets. So does your assessment of the trade change if they wind up taking wends? Oh, 100%. You're not as fond of him. It changes a little bit, but it doesn't change that much. Because if that's the guy they love, then they went and got him and I'm okay with it. Do you think there's a chance in hell they make this deal if they're still in St. Louis?

Or is this? We're in a new city. We're in Hollywood. We're in California. We're in the Sunshine State. We need a star. There's a chance in hell. I think that there's less of one.

I think the incentive is very much there. I think if you give Stan Cronky a call yesterday and ask if he is in favor of this, he's much more in favor of it now than he would have been three years ago. Do I talk about the Titans? Because they just got a lot of picks and traded the number one pick. Sure. Let's do it. What about our man Laramie Dunsell? So here's, all right, so I don't think there's much to say about Tennessee.

John Robinson. Really well done. Good job, buddy. Really well done. You're a team that's hot garbage in a lot of spots, and you just got to be a lot of. a chance to really rectify that. I mean, you're looking, if you hit on half these dudes, you get three solid starters under this.

And what you want, and after I just said everything I said about the Rams, you want more rolls of the dice when it comes to this stuff historically and theoretically, and he got him. So that's fine. I don't know how much there to say about that. They need a ton of things. They're going to have a chance to get them. What's interesting about this from that perspective, from a tonsill perspective, from how

this shifts the draft, is what happens next. So if we concede that the Rams are taking Ziegli at number one, then you get to Cleveland, and maybe this shifts Cleveland's thinking. Here's the thing, by the way. It's a really funny joke because, like, it could be true. Like, what if they did trade up for, like, Jalen Ramsey? And this isn't about a quarterback. You just see Fisher walk to the podium and shove Godelle out of the way.

This is my guy. He takes over. He goes rogue. Let's not rule it out. Let's not rule it out. I, all right, so if you're Cleveland, and you loved one guy and the ramps take him now, maybe that shifts you're thinking. There's no way to know.

So I think Tunnel's in play for Cleveland at two, which, why not? They don't have a right tackle. They just let theirs go. This idea that Tunsel was just penciled in for San Diego now, I don't believe that. I think if Cleveland loves them, they don't exactly have a sure thing over there. It would make sense. That's a hole they have on their roster. But let's just say he doesn't go there.

So now for Cleveland you got so many guys in play, but it's, again, you get Ramsey, whatever. It becomes interesting for San Diego. If Tunsell's there, you have to think about it based on how garbage your offensive line has been recently. You literally just signed Joe Barksdale to a four-year deal with 10.5 million guaranteed. He's your right tackle. You're not walking away from that. King Dunlap is not necessarily as much of a long-term investment. He's been hurt a decent amount.

So if you want to take Tunsell, say, fine, we'll move on from Dunlap. I don't hate that, but you still owe that dude some money. 9.35, 375 million after this year and dead money. So your tackles, you've committed there. Guard is a different situation, but I don't necessarily think you just say tonsils going there no matter what. Now, Ramsey's in play there, which I really love. That makes that secondary super interesting.

So I think San Diego is a winner here. But that's where it all kind of shifts. I think with your Dallas, you have most of the same guys in play. but if Tunsell's there at four, if for some reason, Cleveland goes maybe quarterback, the chargers go with Ramsey, and Tunsell's sitting there, I believe Doug Free is a free agent after this year. So you're sitting there if you're Dallas, and you would have Tyron Smith, Lyle Collins, Travis Frederick, Zach Martin, and Laramie Tunsell.

I wish that everyone listening could see your face right now. I've used this line with our dear friend Tate who's with us here as well. you look like you've been transported to heaven on earth. The idea of it is the coolest thing I've ever thought of in my entire life. So if it were to happen, I would be extremely happy. His contract is up after next season, actually. And he has $1.5 million in signing bonus, but... So what is the...

Details. Not important. What is the absolute farthest that Tunsel falls? I saw him at 9 on a mock draft earlier day, and that seemed crazy. I don't think that happens. I think Philly gets him at 8 if he's there. also, I think, if you're Jacksonville, to take him. Right.

I mean, who cares? Luke Jockel is not something I'm interested in. You think they're going to trade him? Trade Jokal? Who's going to trade for him? Seen some of those rumors floating around the last few days. I'm sure Dave Colwell's want to put him out there, or Luke Jokkel's agent. I'm not trading for Luke Jokulkel.

He's not under contract after this year. He's been a Houston foreclosure of a left tackle. I am, no, absolutely not. This is, no. If he's there and you love him, take him. Because if that's the best player in the draft, you can give him at five, I'm all set. I'm sitting here counting. Is there a chance that Miles Jack is a raven as a result of what happened today?

Oh, God. Is this the best thing that's happened to you in weeks? Is this a possibility? Sure. I mean, this really does throw a wrench into everything that's happening right now. Every other team is so happy right now. That's the thing. The Rams didn't just do the Titans a favor.

They did everyone a favor. Because you know what this is? This is like the, I know you're not a baseball fan, but hang with me. I know you're a Cubs fan, but not a, not a, you're not in like a, just destroying people. You're not in like an AL only keeper league like like a like yours truly right here. Which I heard about yesterday. Congratulations, by the way.

Thank you. My life is officially insane. But yeah, it's over. It's done. It's done. This sort of reminds me of like the moment in a snake draft where some asshole starts the closer run. Oh.

See, I was going to go elsewhere. I went in my rookie draft every year in my NFL keeper league. It's always happened where if I'm in the top five, some asshole takes a dude I don't want in front of me. Right. Yes. And you rejoice. Thank you so much. There's that, certainly.

And then there's also, but the person who takes the closer first, right? Everyone else then has a choice. Do you benefit from that stupidity by allowing a better player to drop to you? Or do you feel compelled to do something stupid in turn? Yes. Which is probably what the Browns are facing now. Yep. Right?

Yep. I mean, what do you think? Are they going to take Wentz or golf, depending on what the Rams do? It depends on if they like them. I mean, if they like Wence or they like off, if they like whoever the Rams don't take, if they really like them, then maybe they do. It's so hard with this stuff because you don't know if these teams are in love with these quarterbacks.

Clearly the Rams are. But outside of that, there's no indication that anyone else is. If the Rams are taking the guy that Cleveland, wanted do the Browns trade down? Do we have another trade? It depends on if a team, again, if a team loves whoever the Rams didn't take. If there's a team further down, but who would that team be? Who still needs a quarterback? The Niners, maybe?

Yeah. If they're scared now because they were in this position to take that second quarterback, and now they're not. What if Chip is just like sitting there like, you can't out crazy me? Well, Bulkie is not going to let that happen. As much as less need was the king of draft picks, Tric Bulkie has traded down seven million times in the last 10 years. Amazing. So, okay, the Titans. Do you think they take a tackle still? Do you think they're looking at like Jack Conklin at 15, someone like that?

Sure. I mean, it's certainly in play. It's a position of need. They don't have a solid option there, but I think anything is around for them. I mean, they need, looking at that roster right now, they need a tackle. Byron Bell is not an answer, but they could use help on the defensive line, which they're going to be guys around. there. They could definitely use another corner. Bryce McCain is not somebody that's my favorite. Mark Weston Huff. I mean, this is also. They're, they have a lot of needs. They have a lot of needs, a lot of places, and that's the whole point of what they just did. So I think anything is in play. I wouldn't be surprised. The only position where I'd be surprised if they took one in the first round is probably a running back or a quarterback. Outside of those, I'm pretty sure it's all on the table. Actually, there's one other spot where I would be a little bit surprised if they took one

in the first round, and that's a pass rusher. Because you have Derek Morgan, you brought him back, gave Brian a Rackpo decent amount of money. So that's a spot where you have two solid players. And that gets us to, we're going to do some segments. We're actually going to talk about things that are not this trade. That gets us to our prospect of the week. Okay. And this is a guy that I have been interested by through most of this process.

And also, it's an interesting spot in this draft. And that is edge rusher. And the guy I want to talk about is Emmanuel Agua from Oklahoma State. Let's do it. Dude who had 22 sacks, I believe, in his last two seasons at Oklahoma State, very productive. Big 12 defensive player of the year, his second to last year. Guy that got after the quarterback clearly with numbers, dude who exploded at the combine. You know, 4-6-ish-40, the best time among all those guys is huge.

Not somebody that's like wiry and fast, but looks like the Hulk. why isn't he a top 10 pick? And does that speak to what this crop of edge rushers looks like as a whole? I think the depth of the talent pool is so vast this year that you sort of have the luxury of picking by personal preference as opposed to just sort of saying this guy is like, you know, clearly the first or second or third guy of the position set. I think that as powerful and versatile,

as he is and as successful as he was in college, he was also really inconsistent. He had he had plays where he looked like an unstoppable monster and he had plays where he looked totally overwhelmed. And I think that probably scares scouts and teams. And this is like a potentially very unfair thing to say. I'm curious for your thoughts on this. But Oklahoma State's recent draft history is not on his side. Right. So four of their last five picks, Justin Gilgill, Joseph Randall, Justin Blackman, Brandon Whedon. Those guys are not good professional football players. Obviously, there are some other stuff going on in a couple of those situations.

So that's not, again, super fair. God, Justin Gilbert. Teaboon-Piggins and Mike Gundy really need Emmanuel O'Hop. Would it be a successful professional football player, or at some point there's going to be a trickle-down effect here with recruiting and guys thinking that they have NFL futures if they go to play there? I don't always buy into that. And I think that there is a stain that comes with having a bad run.

I often think it's more positional than I think it is overall with the program, though. If you think USC quarterbacks are garbage, then you're not going to take a USC quarterback because it's same coaching, whatever. He intrigues me, and I think he intrigued me for a lot of reasons. The measurable is very clear. Yeah. It shows up at times. There are moments where he'll come off the edge and he'll explode. He has a little bit of a hesitation move in a dip that looks pretty good.

He bends back to the quarterback better than a lot of these guys do. There aren't that many pure terrors in this draft coming off the edge. There are a lot of really good football players. I think he has maybe the best chance to turn into the pure terror because he's flexible in the right moments. Not a lot of counter moves. You don't see that. He doesn't come back with anything. With coaching, I think he has a chance to be really, really good.

And I think with all these guys, your Ogbiz, your Leonard Floyd's, your Shaq Lawson's, it's more about what they're going to be than the products they are now. With Bosa, I think it's what he is now, even though I don't think that's, the ceiling's very high on that. With the rest of these guys, it's what they can be. And if I'm taking, if I have that in mind with this group as a complete set, he's the guy where I can say the ceiling is the highest. That's what I want. Do you think that the inconsistency is a result in any way of physical ability or skill, or do you think it's purely that he needs to just learn how to play football better?

I think it's a combination of things. I think motivation is he doesn't play hard every play. Yeah. The amount of plays Oklahoma State had to play. play in the Big 12 is a factor in that. I was watching the Baylor game yesterday. Oh, God. I was watching for like six minutes of cut up, and they just got done with the first quarter.

Yeah. I was like, oh, my God. So I think that's part of it. Also adds to sack totals, by the way. Yeah. Which that pumps stuff up. Yeah, and inflates the numbers, for sure. But so it's that.

I also think when you don't have a counter, you become inconsistent because you're just not going to be a threatening force on every single play. Because if you don't beat a guy around the edge, you don't have a chance. chance. So that really limits the amount of impact you can have on a play-to-play basis because you have one shot. If you don't hit that shot, it's not going to happen. So when it does, you look fucking great.

And when it doesn't, you're just standing there dancing with a dude. So I think it's a combination of stuff. So you'd rather bet on someone like Agba who has the frame than someone like Leonard Floyd, who is explosive and exciting, but kind of like a beanpole. And not going to be in the green room, which is interesting. He's been like as high as 10 in a lot of mock drafts, but I don't know. Those guys scare me. Yeah.

Randy Gregory was like that. Yep. From a frame perspective, he's obviously, you know, not to make light of mental health issues or whatever, but he's somebody that has other stuff going on. Right. Alden Smith is very tall. That's another guy that. Speaking of someone with other stuff going on. That's also true.

But just from a football perspective, Floyd has the best first step. explosiveness getting around the edge of anybody on the draft. I assume some scout is going to be getting very aroused when he sees his arms and how long he is and everything else. So I understand where he's intriguing. I don't think he has a strength to hold up on the edge. I mean, there's just no way he's going to be able to be anything against the run. So I understand where that's a drawback. My favorite of the whole group, actually, is Shaq Lawson.

He has some issues first stepwise. He doesn't play as explosive as he is. He ran a 4-740. A dude can move. He doesn't play that way. But he's so solid. He's so good setting the edge against the run. He can drop back a little bit.

He plays with his hand off the ground. He's the guy in this group that I want. I just don't think right now he's as sexy as Agua is. I love every Clemson defender in this draft. Shaq Lawson is incredible. We'll get to one more. We'll get to one more and you'll hear my love. Kevin Dodd is delightful in our boy.

Mackenzie Alexander is a beautiful flower and a rare treasure. Do you just want to get to it? Let's just do it. Let's just do it. So our blue chip battle this week is not between two guys because we couldn't pick just two. We're going to talk about all of the cornerbacks in this draft. Before we get to those cornerbacks, Mallory,

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So all the cornerbacks is a bit of a misnomer. We limited ourselves because we have to put some constraints on this because I think we would get a little over-excited. We also are going to force ourselves to sort of put Jalen Ramsey where he belongs. Oh, yeah.

Which is on another planet. Of course. Yeah. I mean, just like, yeah, no, of course. Yeah. So non-Ramsey cornerbacks. Yes, of course. Who are our favorites?

So do you just want to rank them? Do you just want to give me your four top to bottom? And then we can talk about why? I would love to do that. Can you do that? So two through five, basically, because again, Rams. Ramsey's number one. We're stating that for the record.

Your two through five corners. Okay. Which in this draft is really your two through five defensive backs more or less. Exactly. So I am going to go, and this is hard because this is sort of like picking between my favorite Harry Potter books. They're all just lovely. I can't believe I'm making you do this. I feel like it's a cruel practice.

I'm going to put, oh, this is so hard. I can't decide between McKenzie Alexander and Vernon Hardgraves. I love them both so much. All right. They're sort of, they are in so. some order blow Ramsey in two or three for me. I'm so torn. I'm going to give Hargraves the slight, slight edge,

but then I'm probably going to talk myself out of it 30 seconds from now. And then I'm going to put Eli Apple next and then William Jackson. That is my exact ranking. And with the same dilemma. Yeah, it's a Sophie's choice at the top, which I really hate. All right, let's get into Hargraves and Alexander first then. And why I would pick Hargraves and why it's so difficult for me. I can't really decide how much of my McKenzie Alexander love is based in everything about him aesthetically.

I think it's 92% of what I love about him. First of all, the dude plays in shorts. He's not even pretending like he has knee pads in, which is my favorite thing. It's like, fuck this. He looks like he's wearing jean shorts. It really is. So, awesome. Second of all, the best shit talker in this draft without any sort of conversation.

It's not close. It's not close. That dude, every single play is in someone's face. And the reason I'm okay with it is because it's either when he's broken up a pass or when he has literally buried a dude into the sideline like six feet under with one hand. So that's fine as well. I love everything about that. So he has all that stuff. And he just, he's got that.

Whatever that is, I love it. But he's not some asshole, right? Right. He's really, really smart. Everything you hear about the dude is he's got it all up here. He's in the film room all the time, apparently, and you see it show up. He really does diagnose plays very quickly on a schematic level. The way that it unfolds, I saw him come up on so many screens and swing passes and make tackles near the line of scrimmage.

He's got that down. Here's the thing with Hargaves, though. He's got all the other mental stuff down. Right. Alexander's knock is that he had no interceptions. all through college. Right. And I think that's overrated.

Lanzarline of Benefell.com does great work. Had a stat where he said that 29.6% of targets toward Alexander were completed. Yeah. You don't need to intercept passes if that's what's happening over there. But with Hargraves, the awareness is much more. As the play is happening on a coverage basis, he knows where his man is, he knows where the ball is. He's really, really good at the top of routes, identifying when they stop and breaking back

on the ball and coming back hard on it. You don't see that with Alexander. Alexander's just really sticky in man, which has value, but it's not as nuanced as what Hargraves brings to the spot. That is my treatise. I just talked for like six minutes. What are you thinking? And I just nodded in agreement to everything you said because I was all spot on. I mean, the thing about Alexander and the interceptions, it's like annoying for a couple different reasons. The stat that you gave is one I also had shot it down and is pretty eye-opening. It's absurd. Also, people just didn't throw to that side of the field. They didn't challenge him. He was

college football's Richard Sherman. He really was. And the shit talking, I think, was probably part of that, but also, like you said, he knows how to play cornerback. He erased Will Fuller from the face of the earth. Yeah. I watched that game yesterday. He really did. Wilfiel will no longer exist. If somebody takes him, it's going to be really unfortunate because that's a waste of draft me. He's not alive anymore. I'm going to give the torrential downpour a little bit of credit as well. But, okay, fair. Mostly Alexander. Like, both of these guys are a little bit undersized, right? It seems to be a critique that's sticking to Alexander more, which is interesting. I feel like it's the opposite. Do you? Because I think Alexander plays bigger in this weird way. I think on a

man coverage basis, he plays bigger than his 5-10. He also has longer arms. It just feels like the kind of thing where people are looking for, to nitpick. Like, oh, well, these guys are both dominant badasses, so we've got to find something to say, yeah, they're 5-10. They're too small. All the receivers nowadays are gigantic. Can I read you an Alexander quote from after his pro day? When you watch Tyrone Matthew play, you see his heart. You could see his soul. It don't matter undersized guys. I don't listen to none of that. Football is a game of performance. If you can perform, everybody will shut up. And he's completely right. Also, I want to see his soul. That sounds amazing. So the Bears have the 11th pick in this draft,

and I really hadn't thought about Corner very much because they re-signed Tracy Porter and Kyle Fuller is actually good. It was touching go there for a while, but he's actually good. Watching these guys yesterday and hearing that, I think I want McKenzie Alexander. I think I just really, really do. I want to root for him every single week.

He's amazing. He's the kind of player who I will root for, unless he's a Steeler. Like, no matter what. If he's a Raven, beautiful. If he's a Steeler, I'm going to have to... By the way, that's in play. I know.

I live in fear of just such an occurrence. That is the one team that really doesn't want this run to go fast. They don't want it to happen high because I think they're the team that needs a cornerback the most and could really benefit from a guy like Alexander. Because the one thing you need, the guy they really, really could use freaking Vernon Hargraves. Because that dude is a perfect cornerback. And in that scheme, I like, my favorite thing about Hartberg, I mean, there's like 17 favorite things about Hargraves. But scheme versatility, he can do anything.

He can play off man. He can play a zone. He can play a man. He has such incredible body control. It's awesome. It doesn't matter if you're slightly undersized if you can do the things that he can do. Totally.

And move the way that he can move. Do you have any concerns that he got a little bit chewed up in some big games against Alabama and Michigan? I think Calvin Ridley is an alien? So, I mean, there are a couple plays that it looked like Hardgrave struggled, but he went at Amari Cooper two years ago. I mean, that was a battle. I watched that game yesterday.

I mean, those two dudes are hammering. against each other. So one of the other things I noticed while watching the corners, I realized that if I played in the NFL, I would definitely have the third on the back of my jersey. Like 100%. I always ride for dudes of the third because it is a, it's an elite club or a special group.

And I think that that's what adds to these guys' power because Hargraves is and William Jackson is. He is indeed, William Jackson the third. Any worries about the recurring knee issues? I think that's probably what's pushing him down a little bit. I also think he's much rar than a guy like even Alexander is. You see it show up a lot, just his physical talent. I mean, it flashes all the time.

But it just, it's not as refined. His movements aren't as refined. He's very much on a lesser progression than a guy like Hargraves or Alexander are. But if you want the measurables, if you want big, if you want fast, and if you want a guy who makes plays, this dude does. So I think that the one thing that would be the scariest is the knee stuff. The other guy who's big and fast, Eli Apple, 6-1, teams out there who are worried about all of these young, tall, physical receivers might be smitten by Eli Apple's frame. Here's the thing. This is, we get into measurables and everything else.

When I watch Eli Apple play and I watch McKenzie Alexander play, I would guess that McKenzie Alexander is taller. Yeah, I agree. That's the type of thing where we fall in love. with size for corners, but if you don't play big, then I don't care. You know, Desmond Truffant is 510. Desmond Truffant plays like he's 6'2. That's the guy McCounsey Alexander reminds me, by the way. Just sticky and man and plays so much bigger than he is.

If you're that good and you're right by your dude and you play physical and everything else, it doesn't matter if you're 5'10. I don't throw, everyone can't be Richard Sherman. If you're 6'3, you probably can't run. So I like the 4-4 for Apple. I like the fact that he's tall, but if you don't, play that big, then I have my issues. Apple, by the way, one of five Ohio State Buckeyes who will be in the green room,

which is insane, ties the record that Alabama said in 2012. Incredible. I remain slightly mystified that this team did not win another title last year. Do you know that Eli Apple was not always his name? Eli Pomegranate. Eli Woodard, all through his senior year of high school, I will read you a quote of my own. Gwyneth Paltrow fan, or? A wise man once stated, fatherhood is not biology.

Fatherhood is responsibility. From the time I was two years old, my dad, Timothy Apple has been my father. He's nurtured, provided, and protected our family. I am the man I am today because of his tireless love and commitment to our family. So it is with great pride and honor to carry his last name. I am truly blessed to be Eli Apple. That honestly makes me want to cry. That is so nice.

Oh, my God. My heart is wrenching right now. It is filled with love for the man now known as Eli Apple. Isn't that awesome? That is so, so cool. What a sweetie pie. Yeah, so I found that today. That really made my morning outside of the Rams doing crazy stuff.

Oh, my God. That is really, really nice. So I feel like we're in agreement about this group as a whole just based on how it stacks out. I also think with a lot of positions in this draft, this is similar. Depth. There are dudes you can get later that are going to be starters. But if I'm looking at it right now, I think Hargraves goes in the top 10. I think Apple goes in the top.

16. I think Alexander goes in the top 22 because people are talking themselves out of him. I don't understand. And I think Jackson goes in the first round. That would be my guess. The interception stuff, production stuff is probably dragging Alexander down a little bit. So my last question for you about this, five cornerbacks in the first round, is that because all five of those players are actually worth taking in the first round in a vacuum,

regardless of circumstance and context? I think we would probably both say yes. or is that a response to the recent influx of receivers to the nickel basically becoming the base defense and teams needing to stack up accordingly? That's a really good point. I don't think it's a matter of the receivers, but the nickel is a really, really good point.

So if you look at last year's draft, Trey Wains is the 11th pick first corner, Kevin Johnson's 16, Marcus Peters, 18. God damn, Marcus Peters is good. Oh, my God. 18. Byron Jones, 27.

So you have four guys going the first round. So I think it's just the talent in the year. I don't think teams are saying we need to cover so-and-so, so we need a wide receiver. I think that is a way to talk about the draft in a fun way. But I don't know if it actually influences the way people think. All right, now, let's wrap this up with a few med-bed questions. We're not going to do as many just because the Rams did, again, a lot of stuff, and we need to talk about it. So first one I wanted to ask you, a guy we haven't talked about at all, but one.

of the more interesting names just in this draft as a whole. Tim Polichick asks, what day do you see Braxton Miller going? My man, speaking of Buckeyes, goodness. I think that Braxton is probably a round three pick. I would not be surprised by basically any outcome. I could see a team falling in love with him and taking him in the second round because he's fast. He's athletic. He can do things in open space.

very few people can do. Some of his spin moves last year were truly astonishing. He was basically a vine. He went from being a starting quarterback to being a vine star as a receiver. I could also see him falling to like the fifth round because the truth is he doesn't really know how to play receiver yet. He has a lot to learn. He spent, he was a quarterback. You know, he got hurt. He lost his job. His shoulder never properly healed. And Urban Meyer got creative and converted him to a different position. I think that he probably has more of a future as a return specialist than as a receiver, but I can see him doing a lot in the slot. And I think that if he finds a team that knows how to make use of his unique is overused, but of his unusual skill set and versatility, he could do a lot of

cool things. I mean, just watching him, the guy's clearly electric. He's got defined. talent in a lot of ways. I think the team will try to, a team will convince themselves that he's worth it. Right. I mean, that's what'll happen. So, you know better than I do. And all I saw is that spin move on TV. That is my Brexton Miller. I love him. I would probably take him in the second round. I think he's awesome. And I think he has a lot of heart. We talk about heart. It's one of our go-to. That's our measurable maze. Hell yes, it is. That's all I care about. Forget the height. Let's talk about the heart. And he's got heart. He's got incredible burst, incredible moves. I think he'll find a way to contribute. So staying on the second round kick a little bit,

A.D. Peters asks, who is mazes Eric Kendricks this year? A day one guy taken day two. Are you going to kill me if I give another Buckeye here? No, not at all. Is this just officially the Ohio State podcast? I think Von Bell. Safety out of Ohio State. No one's really talking about him because there are simultaneously 400 really good defensive backs in this draft class and 400 really good Buckeyes in this draft class. So he's sort of overshadowed in both capacity. capacities, but he's an awesome safety. I think in a weaker DB class, he'd be a day one guy, clearly. And so if somebody gets him in round two, I think that's a steal. I also think that, you know, some of these receivers are going to fall into the second round. And this just doesn't,

yeah, this just doesn't seem to be a year where you're going to start a receiver run in the top 10 and five guys are going to go. I think Treadwell, Doxon, maybe Coleman in round one. And then you're looking at someone like your boy, the invisible man Will Fuller, who I love, or somebody like Michael Thomas, who, you know, we talked about before, has a lot of raw ability. Those guys could be incredible values on day two. The guys I'm thinking about, Cody Whitehair comes to mind just because guards always get pushed down. He's somebody that's probably a first round talent.

You think about where Zach Martin went a couple years ago. I don't know if he's quite as good, but I think it's probably comparable. the defensive tackles. There's just so many of them. If you think that a guy like Vernon Butler is a first-round talent, if you think Kenny Clark is, Chris Jones, maybe one of those guys doesn't go in the first round, even if they could.

And the obvious one just based on talent alone is Kim D-J. I mean, if he falls out of the first round, we know why. But that's still a day-one guy that he could go later than that. All right, Matt, last one. Andrew Goldstein asks, which player goes in the top 10 that nobody expected to go in the top 10? So I think this is the Eric Flowers corollary from last year is probably, he was the one last year that it happened and everyone in the room in the auditorium is like, what? Wait, when?

How? I might have said Leonard Floyd until I saw that he wasn't going to be in the green room and now I'm like, oh, he's going to be like a round two pick instead. This is just the complete opposite direction of what I expected. You know, Paxton Lynch, right? I mean, we're going to see a ridiculous quarterback around now. So we call that the Jake Locker Corollary. Yes, exactly. he's going to be the future locker,

Gabbert, Ponder. I know those, you know, Ponder was 12, but people who basically just had no business being drafted that high and did because there was a run at the position. As I said, fantasy baseball close a run. Paxton Lynch, congratulations. You're this year's Craig Kimbril.

I don't know what any of those words mean. I, my guy's daringly. Yes. I think Anthony Barr is somebody that went a little bit higher last year than people thought. Very different players. This bar clearly adds the pass rush element that isn't part of Lee's game.

But if you look at the league, what Luke Keekely is, what guys like Eric Kendricks can be, what they expect Miles Jack to be. Mobility, coverage ability, everything else is more valuable than it's been in a long time. And I think if you look at the way Lee moves, a team could absolutely say, this is a star and pick him in the top eight or nine. I think that that's the one guy that based on the measurables and whatever else has a chance. So to sum up, we really like. everyone who played at Ohio State

just not quite as much. Who was the National Championship last year? Amazing. Darth Saban. Really like everyone at Ohio State, just not quite as much as we like McKenzie Alexander. I don't think I like anyone as much as I like McKenzie Alexander,

including my mother, which I love my mother, but I think I'd rather have McKenzie Alexander be my mom. Amazing. He'd speak truth to you. I know that. And that's all I want. I just want to me that's going to be honest with me and tell me what they really want in my life.

to see your soul. All right, Mal. That's all we got. Thank you very much for listening again. Make sure to listen to everything else happening on the Channel 33 podcast network. We have Bill Simmons talking to Joe House about MBA awards,

Shackhouse recounted the Masters this week. Amanda and Juliet on Jam Session yesterday talked about Britain and their leading men. So go check all that stuff out. And as always, we really appreciate you guys listening and hopefully come back next week. Go to the ringer.com. Sign up for our newsletter.

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