The Press Box - ‘Jam Session’ — Harvey Weinstein, Kesha, and Gabrielle Union (Ep. 361)

Episode Date: October 6, 2017

The Ringer's Juliet Litman and Amanda Dobbins discuss the harassment accusations levied against Harvey Weinstein in the New York Times (5:00), Kesha's bounce-back and revealing Rolling Stone profile (15:00), the tepid Vanity Fair profile of Kate McKinnon (23:00), and Gabrielle Union's inspiring new memoir (33:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. I wanted to tell you about Black on the Air. Hosted by the one and only, the great one. Larry Wilmore, even though he's a Lakers fan, I still like him and he's talented. But he has all kinds of guests on from Neil deGrasse Tyson to Al Franken to Bernie Sanders. You name it. They're coming on, pop culture, politics, newsmakers. And then at the beginning of every podcast, Larry does a little riff about whatever is either sticking in his car or things that he's enjoying.

Although he has been enjoying much lately. the way the world's going. But Larry will riff on anything. And then he has guests on it. It's great. If you liked everything else that he's done, comedy-wise, if you love this Comedy Central show,

you will love this podcast. It is a medium that he has built for. It's called Black on the Air, hosted by Larry Wilmore. Get it wherever you subscribe to your podcast. Welcome to Jam Session. I'm Julietette Litman. I'm Amanda Dobbins.

Today is a serious jam session. Moments ago, it's Thursday, October 4th, like an hour ago. New York Times posted a, a very damning article about accusing Harvey Weinstein of basically sexual harassment for over three decades at the Weinstein Company. And before that, at Miramax, his previous company. Before this story broke, we were going to talk about Kesha. Yes, Rolling Stone.

And Kesha is on the cover of Rolling Stone. It's a very, it's actually a hopeful profile. She seems to be in a good place, which is great. I love her new music, by the way. Yes. But obviously, Kesha has been part of a struggle for the past few. years. Her career was derailed because she was in, she's been, she remains in litigation against her former collaborator and producer Dr. Luke, who she also accused a sexual harassment, basically.

Yes. And that case is ongoing. And in the Rolling Stone piece, she talks about how she actually can't talk about it anymore and wants to move forward. And we do not know the details, but the sense that she was in an uncomfortable position and her career was owed to a man of power who, man with power, who was not using his power responsibly, goes throughout the piece. And then is also echoed today by a delightful profile in the New York Times of Juliet's favorite singer, Pink. I'm shaking my fifth fist in triumph because I love Pink. I'm just so happy. But anyway, back to the topic, can.

It's great. I mean, in the profile, Pink Rosed makes a roast chicken for the writer, which is very charming. Well, she doesn't have them on, but she was nearby her sandals. were lying around the house and they say frigid whore. Right. So it's great. But so she on the record, I'm just going to read the quotes that she said, that Pink says about Dr. Luke.

I don't know what happened. She said of Cush's much puddle-sized claims that Dr. Luke was sexually and verbally abusive. But I know that regardless of whether or not Dr. Luke did that, this is his karma and he earned it because he's not a good person. I have told him that to his face and I do not work with him, she added. He doesn't do good business. He's not a kind person. He doesn't do the right thing when given ample opportunities to do so.

And I don't really feel that bad for him. Dr. Luke declined to comment. That's why I love Pink. Seriously. That's not a thing reason why, but it's one of them. The theme here is men in positions of power and women with less power and allegations of misbehavior by the men in those positions of power. And it's a common refrain.

Yeah, absolutely. We have heard this before from people in similar situations. I think what's a little less common here is that, you know, these are hard, it's hard to talk about these issues. It's hard to come forward, both because of the scrutiny and kind of the shame that is projected on women that talk about these things. Absolutely. And also because you're reliving a pretty uncomfortable at best and traumatic at worst, experiencing your life. Yeah, absolutely. And so what we're talking about here is a group of women like Kesha, Ashley Judd, but also the women who spoke to the New York Times, both anonymously and not anonymously and not who are willing to talk about these things, which is difficult and rare.

And I think we both admire them immensely for that. 100%. It takes a lot of courage. This is by Jody Cantor and Megan Toooey. I'm sure if you go to New York Times.com, this will be. prominently promoted for the next couple of days. This is the lead. Two decades ago, the Hollywood producer Harvey Weinstein invited Ashley Judd to the Peninsula Beverly Hills Hotel for what the young actress expected to be a business breakfast meeting.

Instead, he had her sent up to his room where he appeared in a bathrobe and asked if he could give her a massage or she could watch him shower. She recalled in an interview, quote, how do I get out of the room as fast as possible without alienating Harvey Weinstein? end quote. Miss Judge said she remembers thinking. So we should also say that these are allegations and that Harvey Weinstein denies them. Yeah. And in fact, he is going to sue the New York Times. His lawyer, Charles Harder, released the following statement today. The New York Times published today a story that is saturated with false and defamatory statements about Harvey Weinstein. It relies on mostly

hearsay accounts and a faulty report apparently stolen from an employee personnel file, which has been debunked by nine different eyewitnesses. Again, that's, for the record, that's just what Charles Harder is saying. Yes, that's Charles Harder is saying. We sent the Times, the facts and evidence. They ignored it and rushed to publish. Again, Charles Harder's version of things. We are preparing the lawsuit now. All proceeds will be donated to women's organizations. So that's their official statement for now. I think it's also worth pointing out that Charles Harder is the lawyer who was used to repeatedly sue Gawker. Yes. Most notably, Hulk Hogan's lawyer. Yes. So he,

is who you call when you are press averse. The other quote that I wanted to read from Ashley Judd in this article, women have been talking about Harvey amongst ourselves for a long time, and it's simply beyond time to have the conversation publicly, which is, again, a theme that seems to be through all of these articles is that there are many reports of women working for these men and kind of talking about it behind the scenes, and there's a very heartbreaking detail in the Times article about how. how when a woman would go to a meeting at the Weinstein Company, they said that standard practices that they would try to bring another woman to be in twos.

So it's a theme throughout all these pieces. Yeah. And I just, I admire anyone who is brave enough to talk about these things in the public, like Ashley Judd, like Pink, like Kesha also. Yeah, and I think one thing that's just really undeniable, and Pink hits it on the head, is that so much this feels reactionary to the president because we're almost a year out from the crazy

tape leaking of him, Billy Bush, and he's talking about grabbing women by the pussy. And you can believe that tape or not. The president said it on tape and we all heard it. You can go listen to it on YouTube. Yeah, it's crazy. So it feels to me more urgent.

Like there's with someone in that position of power who has been exposed to speak. speak that way. It feels like these stories are even more important. And I don't think it's coincidental. There's obviously no evidence for that, but it just feels like a groundswell about like talking it, talking out because it feels more relevant and like I said, more urgent. So I think we should also say that this is just, it's still not an easy thing to do. And it does, I would agree with you. It certainly feels more urgent. And it feels like we're seeing more of these stories, which is both really depressing, but also does feel like something is changing. I feel like

the Cosby case was a major, was a turning point in terms of how we talk about these cases publicly. And, you know, I don't want to say women feeling like they can come forward. This is a really hard thing to do. I don't think that we should. New York Magazine, I think, did like a service when they did their issue that had all of the women that came forward. Yeah. Because there's sort of like the visual of like all of these women together have made statements was really impactful and just shows you how widespread it is. And that's like a true like not only is it widespread. It's also then like the power of numbers of like all these women talking at the same

time. Yeah. And I think there's a really striking detail in this New York Times piece about the Weinstein Company, which is it is portrayed as widespread. There are a lot of people who have been talking about it since the story broke. It's like it's an open secret. Everyone knew this and there was no paper trail until today. But there's a detail in the story that none of these, the women who reportedly received settlements knew about each other, which is pretty heartbreaking, but is also indicative of how this works.

Right. Like just it's like a silencing mechanism. Exactly. A settlement also like silences it. Exactly. And so it's again, respect to Ashley Judd, respect to Pink, respect to Kesha and respect to Pink, respect to Kesha and respect to Pink for having her back. It's important to note that those are women who do have some power themselves and they have support. And I don't want to diminish what they're doing at all, but you do have to think about all the people who can't feel quite as brave.

Sure. But you do kind of hope this is a turning point. Like, you have to, I guess. Yeah. L. Howitzer, you're going to go to work every day. I hope it is. Yeah. That said, we should talk about the statement that Harvey Weinstein made this morning.

Yes. released to the New York Times. This was before he announced his intention to sue. Yeah, way before. Yes. And before he gave an interview to the New York Post that we could also talk about. But let's start with the statement. Sure. This statement is so preposterous that I fear that it will outshine the reporting that is done in the New York Times article. And I feel that it will outshine Ashley Judd and we shouldn't let it do that. I mean, the stories are what allegedly happened to these women. Yeah. But this statement that Harvey Weinstein provided to the New York Times, which they just ran as a PDF, and he clearly wrote it himself.

If a publicist helped him write this, then that publicist should no longer be employed. It's also written in the default font of Microsoft Word. I was going to ask you to do a font check on this. Yeah, this is the default. I think it's Calibri. It's like no one chooses this. It's just given to you. It is just an astonishing encapsulation of a man inundance.

position of power who has no idea what he's done wrong, even as he's trying to apologize for it. Here's the beginning. I came of age in the 60s and 70s when all the rules about behavior and workplaces were different. That was the culture then. Which, okay. That's like saying it's locker room talk. It's beyond saying it's locker room talk. It's like in the 60s, this would have been fine. I have since learned it's not an excuse in the office or out of it to anyone. It goes on for a while. He talks about how he's brought on the therapists and he plans to take a leave of absence from the company to deal with this issue. It then quotes the recent JZ song 444, but it's more of a summary than an actual direct

quotation of the song. Then there's this line, which I can't get past, which is, I've been trying to do this for 10 years and this is a wake-up call, which we can come back to. Sure. And then it goes into a kind of word salad thing about how he's going to be working for the NRA. Working against the NRA. I'm sorry, working against the NRA to defeat the NRA. And he gave $5 million to a scholarship for women. And then something about his bar mitzvah.

It's just like a very much like here's why I'm still a good person, even though, which is not, no. That's not how you make an apology. Yeah. And then I think also ending with it will be named after my mom and I won't disappoint her. One crutch that I really don't appreciate among men is, like, referencing the women they're related to when they were accused of, like, something that is, like, abusive towards women, even if it's not sexual. It's just, like, verbally abusive or misogynistic. Like, cool, you have a mom. Like, because you have a relationship with a woman doesn't mean that you can't be misogynistic or act out of line.

I'm just, and, like, I think probably referencing your mother in this way is almost more disrespectful than just acting better. Yeah. And then, of course, he immediately announced his intention to sue the New York Times for $50 million. And then, Juliet, he gave an interview to The New York Post, page six. It's where everyone goes to clear their name. You know what? I almost don't want to read the quotes because, again, like, it's important that Harvey Weinstein will be the story and he is the story. But this is just gross and he spends a lot of time.

It's a pretty nimble, non-denial, denial. denial. Yeah. He acknowledges that he did something wrong and he has like behavior to fix. But then he also spins it around to be like the times is irresponsible and Ashley Judd's going through a lot. So I understand where she's coming from. It's almost like he's furthering her victimization by making it seem like she's like weak or soft because she's going through stuff. Yeah. This is an interview that is trying to cast blame on the women. Yeah. And that is just not okay. That's not okay. Not good. And, you know, I think. think kind of the lesson this afternoon is that this is not over. This is just kind of chapter one of this story. And I think probably more stories will come out and there will also be a legal battle. One thing that's exciting about Ashley Jodd and Pink and Cash is to lesser extent because of her length of her career. Ashley John and Pink both, I think, the way they're acting indicates they kind of have nothing to lose, which I think is awesome because if I were them, I actually would not feel that way. As the pink article points out, it's very hard to be a pop singer over 35 and still

be successful without doing a residency in Vegas. And Ashley Judd, you know, it's also really hard to get, like, great roles for someone like Ashley Judd, who's been around for two decades. And so they're speaking out is exciting and different because it's sort of like, fuck the system. I think this is more important. I'm going to talk about it. And I'm going to worry about my career after. And I I do, it does feel like with the big little lies momentum, like there's like more of like a creative support for women who are like taking control of their careers, which is cool to see. And like, I don't know, I find pink so inspiring. So I'm just like, yes, yes, yes.

Yeah, I hope that's true because, you know, in addition to all this, it just exposes kind of that men are still in control of, as you said, of all the creative structures. and when you are young and you are trying to be a success, you don't have leverage, you don't have power. And it would be nice to see that change. Yeah, absolutely. It would circumvent a lot of problems. Totally. Also, the most exciting thing about Kasha, and I mentioned before, is that her album is awesome.

Yeah, you love the album. It's really good. Praying is a great song. I also love woman. I don't know. It's different, and she's singing more. There's like less production. But I think it's a really good pop record.

And I'm, like, really happy about that. It was really successful. Yeah, it was successful for a pop record. I will also say, I think, so she was on the cover of Rolling Stone and its article by Brian Hyatt. And something I really liked in the article was that it talks a lot about how she's changed and her new sound. And she's doing kind of all the record nerd stuff that she always wanted to do growing up. But she is also very kind about her early career. And she's like, I'm not disowning it.

I'm still glad that I did it. I wouldn't take it all back. Which, that's a fraught subject because obviously she worked with Dr. Luke on it. And it has always been unclear how much of it was Kesh's own vision and how much of it was forced upon her. And the most uncomfortable thing about that was that early Kesh was very good and a lot of people really liked it. Your Love is My Drag is a great pop song. I love both of those albums. And I think...

Timber? Not sick of it. Yeah, come on. But there's something that I really admire and something extremely... I have a lot of respect for the fact that she's able to keep those with her and give people permission to like them. I think that that is... I was glad to see that. It made me feel better as a person who listens to that music.

Absolutely. It's also like I will not give Dr. Luke all these songs. Like these are my songs too. Yeah, absolutely. Which is cool. I mean, she's got hits. As some might say, I think, she's got bars. Do kids say that?

Do they still say that? I don't know. But I really like her music. I still listen to it. I mean, come on is a great one, too. There's also from the, I believe it's the second album, one called I Only Want to Dance With You, featuring Julian Casablancas. Oh, nice.

Who I think definitely just mailed in a. How did he get to be in that? I think he should have been showed up and been thankful. He was still included. I think probably these days he thinks that too, but. It was a hopeful ketchup piece. Yeah, it was. And I think we can feel good about it because the record is good.

It's not a Katie Perry situation. So, I don't know. I'm excited about it. And I think woman is like a really fun song. If I was still a camp counselor, I'd be playing that for my kids while we, while we cleaned the bunk. So that's a good outcome. Yeah.

So it's not all darkness. Totally. Also, really cool that she has a song with Dolly Parton. That song is good too. Yeah. I don't know. I feel like a lot of these pop, some of these pops, are coming out of it.

Like, I also think Miley Cyrus is kind of, like, in a good way right now after a wayward few years. Yeah. Did you happen to catch the Cyrus family versus the cast of Riverdale on Jimmy Fallon? You know I missed that one? So Jimmy Fallon has appropriated the game show Family Feud. Yeah. And instead of, like, making it, like, a vote or, like, a survey says, it's about Google searches.

So it's like, I, so, like, the segment I watch was, like, should I get my blank Pierce and then they had a guess like the top answers for the blank based on Google, which is really weird. Like isn't that like just some kind of like IP theft? Google's IP theft? No, like Family Feud. Oh, probably, yes. It was very, it was really weird to me because Family Feud is still on the air. It's on ABC. Yes. And this is an NBC show. Right. It was just really weird to me. But anyway, the whole Cyrus family was together and I was just like, this is interesting. Yeah. It's almost like they're going the Kardashian route. I just detorted this conversation, but it just arinded me that. Yeah, I wasn't, I have not been excited that, I have not been as excited about

this phase of Miley, in part because I really loved Wrecking Ball Miley. And she's now disowning it, and I think that's insanity. And there's also, you know, Miley's place in the culture has ebbed and flowed as the years we've gone on. I just, you know, in general, it's not my favorite pop moment except for Cardi B, which is really fun. Yeah. But happy for Keshah. Totally. That's good. It was a nice feel-good read. And I hope it's that's a true, but it was, we needed it. We needed this piece.

Totally. Let's talk to on, let's move to a less good feeling piece. Oh, yeah. Great segue. The Kate McKinnon profile last week in Vanity Fair. Oh, yeah. Okay. This is really core to what we discuss on this article, on this podcast, and it even is explicit in the article, which is like, this is, this is, this is, this.

This Kate McKinnon profile is the crisis of celebrity journalism embodied. It is, except here is my hot take. It's not. Oh, okay. All right. I hated this piece. Okay. I did too.

And, you know. Great photos, though. That's the only only note. Great photos. She looked really good in the denim on denim. And having Kate McKinnon on the cover is a great choice. Yeah. She just won the Emmy.

She is the star of Saturday Night Live right now in a moment when there's a lot of tension on Saturday Live. Also, she's a comic genius. I hated this story, and I want to be very clear. I think the writer was done a disservice by her editors and by Vanity Fair. There are editors for a reason. You can't be in a room by yourself. Some people can, but they're few and far between the people who can write a perfect piece,

especially a perfect 4,000 word piece alone. It's hard. There are crises of confidence. that is all part of the process. And your freak out about being a writer should not then be published in a national magazine. There should be someone to say to you, it's going to be okay. And also, what if we did this? I think, so this piece is written, I wouldn't even say it's like first person.

It's almost like second person. It reads like a second person piece except all the user eyes still. It's very weird tone. Yeah, so every once in a while with celebrity journalism, and really with most a lot of feature journalism there's a stylistic trick where you go meta

and you talk about the process of writing the piece and it's usually because you don't have the reporting to support the original version of the piece. People have done it well. Frank Sinatra has a cold is the er example

to which everyone has been attempting since forever in celebrity journalism. I'm never a fan of it because Frank Sinatra is like a lot of a kind It's true. And that's also, you can't reheat a souffle. It's that that's not, it's been done. So I always kind of find it lazy and I always find it self-serving. The thing about a celebrity profile is that we want to know about a celebrity. We do not want to know about the person. And there are examples of a profile where the writer and the subject have a connection and you learn about both. But if you're just writing about yourself instead of writing about the person who's on the cover of the magazine, magazine, you're not doing your job. Yeah. And I'm sorry that you don't know how you did your job. And I'm sorry that you got put in a bad position or the person was a bad interview. It happens to everyone. But I just

I don't understand this. I don't understand Vanity Fair's decision to run it beyond everyone is waiting for Grading Carter to leave and is just using their expense lunches while they can. I don't, like, that's my best guest. It's very weird. The thing that I found the strangest about it was like you had lunch with Kate McKinsey. at the very least, just do a Q&A. Yeah, that's the other thing. If you don't, you know, lunch is a traditionally pretty boring setting. You have to like describe the napkin and what someone ordered and they always ordered

quinoa and you're like, I don't care. But if you're limited from an access perspective, then think of a different approach, just as you said. Or like making an SNL piece. You've got the star of SNL making an SNL piece. There also were a couple of just like low blows for no reason. like describing what she's looking, what she looked like. It was sort of like, you know, usually a celebrity shows up looking like they're dressed down.

But really, it's like a very specific outfit and they're wearing makeup. And then it was like, but Kate McKinnon actually looked horrible, which is so rude and like unnecessary. I mean, this is the thing that writer is sort of not just very put out about the situation and just taking it out on the subject instead of finding a solution. It's complaining and finding a solution. And there were two other moments that I thought were really unfair to Kate McKinnon. one was when also the writer mentioned that she was very touchy about talking about playing Hillary Clinton.

And, okay, if that's the case, why not try to unpack why that might be? Like, why is she sick of talking about that? Or why is she uncomfortable talking about Hillary Clinton, the woman, not just the character? Like, why is that a fraught ground? Because the writer does express surprise that that was something she didn't want to discuss. And I actually get that. Like, you would think the thing you're known for now, Kay McCannis playing Hillary Clinton and the fact that you had dinner with her right after the election.

and like, let's talk about that. So why not try to unpack why that was a problem? I think that's a great note. I think that you're a good editor. Thanks. And my number three one that I thought was handled abysmally. Can you guess? No, because they're like 15.

Talking about how she's a lesbian and how, like, how delicate it was to bring that up. It's actually not delicate. Like, she's out. She's just like everyone else probably doesn't talk about her personal life. It's not because she's a lesbian because she wants to have a sense of privacy. And so like exoticizing the fact that she's a lesbian was offensive to me. Completely agree. Here's the thing.

I think that it's very possible that Kate McKinnon is not the most interesting interview. Comedians often aren't actually because they think about being funny and performing in a different way. And so when you're supposed to perform in your own personal setting as opposed to doing a character, it just doesn't really translate. And by the way, being a good interview, giving good quotes is a performance. Totally. That's why George Clooney is good at it. Exactly. Or like, I just was watching Julia Roberts on James Corden. She's great

at it. Exactly. But you want to know what? They also have been famous for over 20 years. It definitely takes time, and there are just some people who are good at it and some people who aren't, and that's fine. And if this is your job, then part of your job is finding a different way to approach that person or a different way to present them. Yeah.

I could think of so many different angles. The five Kate McKinnons, you meet at lunch. There you go. It's almost like you do this for a living. Yeah. It was disappointing, particularly because it feels so out of whack with Kate McKinnon's moment right now. Completely agree. She is, like you said, a star.

Yeah. And this does not capture that. I agree. And I think also, as you said, kind of celebrity journalism is dead, which is kind of what I saw a lot in responses to this article. But it's not at all. It's just you had, like, someone didn't take it seriously. This is what we need is not navel gazing. We need people who, like Juliette Libman, just did, will think of creative ways to cover these people.

Because there is still an appetite. Everyone being like, oh, we don't need it because there's social media. That's true. But then people just cover the social media instead. People want to know about famous people. They always will. It's been as true as long as there's been humanity. It would have been more interesting to know what she ordered rather than read this article, even if it was Ki-Nwa.

Just tell me. what she have. I agree. What'd she have. All right, let's move into our segments. Bum-ba-da-bum. There's no sound drop, so I just invented one. Amanda, what's one thing you can't stop thinking about?

Army Hammer. Oh, yes. Hammer season. Hammer season! What's his movie coming out? It's called, Call Me By Your Name. It's out of November. Right.

And it features Madonna's daughter's high school boyfriend, who was also on homeland. Timothy Chalameh or something. But to me, he'll always be Loris Leon's ex-ex, boyfriend, high school sweetheart. That's true, from LaGuardia high school, right? Yeah. Yeah. And honestly, if I were him, I would be clinging to that, too.

Yes. So Army Hammer is also in it, and Army Hammer is in kind of, I think they're both in early Oscar conversations, as is the film, call me by your name. It's been kind of a festival hit. So Army is on the campaign trail. Is his name really Army? Is it Armand? Yes.

Oh, okay. Yeah. So my brother is Joey and my parents. switch that he would switch to Joseph. Do you think that Army's parents, like, can't you just go by Armand? Is a lot more dignified. Well, no, because Armand Hammer is... Like the Hammer Museum.

Yes. And is a famous kind of questionable historical figure. I mean, extremely rich, obviously. And has a bunch of oil money, and I'm not really sure what was going on there. Sure. So I think probably it's better for Army to have his separate identity. Okay. Fair enough.

And also, don't you think Army is more accessible? I guess so. But is that what he's really going for? Accessibility? I think here's the thing. So he's 6.5-220 and there is two of him, which is a famous social network quote that he says, if only, there were two. But he's tall. He's astonishingly handsome. I can't believe his voice is real. It is pretty. It's wild. I wish that they would remake the talented Mr. Ripley so that he could play the Jude Law character. So he could be Dickie. Yeah, that would be fantastic. Except that movie's perfect, so I don't want to remake it, but also tragic, protect Army. But anyway. Yeah. Yeah, he's basically a 40s movie star, but in real life. Tell me about his wife.

Oh, my God, Elizabeth Chambers. I'm so obsessed. I've spent so much time on her Instagram. Okay, so as best I can tell, she was a model. Uh-huh. And they got married when I think Army was 24, 25, very young. She's older. And now she runs a bakery that is based in San Antonio.

It's called Bird Bakery. There may also be, there's definitely a branch of Dallas because she's there a lot on Instagram. Okay, cool. I once saw her on the cover of Santa Barbara magazine, and it was Elizabeth Chambers of Santa Barbara. So there might be a socialite element to this that I'm not totally tracing. No one has really connected the dots for me, and I'm still working on my homeland board. And second homeland reference of the podcast. Wow.

Staying 11. And they have two children. They seem to spend a lot of the time at the Beverly Hills Hotel Pool. And he's like done some pretty ridiculous photo shoots, like worthy of the Beverly Hills Hotel Pool and like for this movie, right? The knitwear is extraordinary. He does wear a sweater well. Yeah. No one has worn a sweater this well since Drake.

Wow. Yeah. It's really kind of like. That's your highest compliment. I know. It's so true. But I just feel like the Army ham. sweater meme is about to happen.

But he's been on the cover of, yes, after this podcast. He was on the cover of British GQ and Out magazine and a couple other places. Also, let's not forget when he called out James Woods on Twitter. Yeah, that was great. For saying disrespectful, you know, gross trolley things about. I mean, he's a man with nothing to lose, Army Hammer. That's so true. He's only working because he wants to.

So possibly an Oscar. He might not win, but I would like him to win. Do you think he's in the front, he's in the conversation, right? He's in the conversation, but it's October. It's very early. Things change. Okay. Congrats to Army. I'm happy for him. Yeah, watch this space. Follow his wife on Instagram. It's really, they live a great life. I'm happy for them. Yeah, me too. That's beautiful. My one thing is less hopeful. However, also a public service by a great woman. Gabrielle Union is doing some publicity for her memoir.

We're going to need more wine, which, first of all, good title. Salute. Yes. It also reminds me of Jennifer Garner, another one of my faves. The Year of Wine. The Year of Wine, yes. If you don't follow Gabriel Union on social media, I really recommend it. She wrote her husband, MBA champion Dwayne Wade regularly, and she just seems like fun and she just seems dope.

And so in her memoir, she writes about how she does. didn't think she was going to have kids. And then she gets married to Dwayne Wade at the age of 40. And he has two sons and then a nephew who he was raising as his son. And she'd come to a stepmom and she realized that she really wants to have kids. So she starts doing IVF. And she reveals in her memoir, which is excerpted in People Magazine, that she had had, she's had eight or nine miscarriages. Yeah.

That's a lot to put your body through. And then also it just sounds physically traumatic for your body. and also just like emotionally so traumatic. Absolutely. And it's also a thing that no one ever talks about. Ever. An extremely common thing that no woman ever talks about. It's amazing.

It honestly feels like a public service that she is so open and candid about it. Yeah, I completely agree. I find it very moving and like sort of like the importance of it like almost underrated. And she also talks about like how it's hard. I mean, as an actress in particular, she's like people I'll be like people will think I'm either like in my second trimester or just like really. bloated. And then you have to like, A, answer questions. Then you also, since her appearance is part and parcel of her profession, she has to like worry about that and also it has to address it. It's very complicated for someone like her. And miscarriage is so common and so emotionally grueling

and underdust. It's like very significant for such a successful woman to be so upfront about it. Yeah, absolutely. It's always treated as a secret. You know, you're not even supposed to tell people that you're pregnant until a certain point because you want to hide the fact. If, if you're, If there is a miscarriage, you don't want to tell people about it, which is just kind of embedded in this societal construct that we have of that it's something to be ashamed about. Totally. She also says in that excerpt, just the number of questions she gets is, I believe she's 44, a 44-year-old woman about kids and whether she wants them or whether she's going to have them when, why did she decide not to, which is just certainly part and parcel of being a woman in the public eye. But I think you and I are both finding is just part and parcel of being a woman, especially in your 30s. And it's, you know, everyone has a different answer and should be your own decision.

And it's very difficult. So shout out to her for writing about all of this. I've, like, always really liked her. And last year, Katie Baker wrote a really good profile of her and Dwayne Wade and, like, kind of them being in the city of Chicago last year. And I don't know. She just, like, doesn't disappoint from bringing on until now. Really, since 10 things I hate about you till now, I've got no complaints about Ms. Gabrielle Union. She's seriously so good, such a good social media follow.

I also really recommend being Mary Jane. Yeah, I've heard it's great. I actually never watched it. Fantastic. Maybe I'll catch up on that. You've given me a to-do list of the bold type and being Mary Jane. What a time for you in television. Really? That's just a great one too. I'm busy this weekend. Is it a 30-minute show or an hour? It's an hour. They're both hours. But they're 42 minutes because they're on.

I prefer that. And also another thing at Capital Union, last year, the production company that she does be Mary Jane was, try to, like, fuck her over and try to, like, break. up a season into two parts so that it basically would pay her less. And she was like, no, no, no, no, pay me what I'm owed. And I appreciate that. I at first was like women in Hollywood fighting for like equal pay. I'm like, cool, good job. You're so really rich. But I regret that stance. And I'm like, actually, this is meaningful for women in high profile positions to fight for that does mean something. Again, it's another thing, another conversation that is often had in private and with shame attached to it that is now being had in public. Yeah, exactly.

To make women feel more comfortable. That's kind of the moral of the story of this podcast. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it. It's actually like I feel weirdly happy to like have this forum with you to be able to talk about these things. I do too. Yes. Thank you for talking about all of it with me.

Yeah, it's really nice. So in conclusion, respect to Ashley Judd, Keshah, Pink, Gabrielle Union, and base and every single woman listening to this podcast. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for listening. This has been a time. a time to be alive.