The Press Box - ‘Jam Session’ — Taylor Swift Spectacular (Ep. 343)

Episode Date: August 23, 2017

The Ringer’s Juliet Litman and Amanda Dobbins discuss the announcement of Taylor Swift’s upcoming album ‘Reputation’ (1:10), her new media strategy after her feud with Kim Kardashian West (5:40), the decision to release a single before the VMAs as it relates to her ongoing rivalry with Katy Perry (20:00), and which guests will be featured on the new album (26:35). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Make sure to watch the ringers live reaction show Talk the Thrones this Sunday. Andy Greenwald, Mother of Dragons, Mallory Rubin, Chris Ryan, and our very own maister, Jason Concepcion, will be coming to you live after the East Coast airing of the Game of Thrones finale. That's right after the finale. It's like I heard 90 minutes long, so make sure you watch it all that. 80, my bad. Talk the Thrones will stream exclusively on Twitter and Periscope right after the episode ends. It can be found on the ringer's Twitter handle at Ringer.

They'll be reacting at the same time as you, contextualizing the events and explaining everything can't just unfold it. Again, the show is called Talk the Thrones, and you can stream it live after the East Coast airing of Game of Thrones finale on our Twitter and Periscope at Ringer. Welcome to Jam Session, part of the Ringer podcast network. This is a Taylor Swift spectacular. I'm Juliet Lippman. I'm Amanda Dobbins. This is a bummer, kind of. Yeah, I sent you a slack this morning, which was that I was hoping to avoid Taylor Swift this week. I was hoping that we could just wait for the music and then go from there. And then this morning, that changed. But I also said to you, I'm ready. Okay. Like, I'm ready to talk about it. We're ready to talk about it.

We're going on again. And we need to talk about hers. So let's start with the basics. Okay. Taylor Swift has a new album coming out called Reputation. Reputation. The album will be out on November 10. Oh, that's so far away.

The first single is being released tomorrow night, Thursday night. So Friday morning. Right. In advance of the VMAs, which are on Sunday. I have a lot of thoughts about that. Posted by Katie Perry, which we will come back to. What's the name of the song? We don't know yet.

Timeless or self- what was that's been rumored. Okay. The other thing that happened is so starting on Monday morning, last week Taylor Swift deleted everything on her social media. It went completely dark. Mm-hmm. And starting on Monday, she posted cryptic Instagram videos that to anyone who knows anything were immediately a snake.

Yeah. But I think this morning was when you actually saw the snake's head and it was confirmed that it was a snake. And so if you are blessed and have blocked out the last year and half of the world, then you should know that Snake is the emoji that Taylor Swift has become associated with after the Kim Kardashian Kanye-O-S Taylor Swift Snapchat. ContraTapes. Snapchat gate?

That was the year ago. That was last August, wasn't it? I think it was before that, actually. Oh, was it? Yeah, I think it was. Anyway, it was last summer. It was on National Snake Day. Let's Google what National Snake Day is.

Okay. Because Kim actually released the tapes on National Steak Day, which is a national steak day, which is apparently July 16th. So it was July 16th. Okay. It coincided with an episode of Keeping Up the Kardashians. Yes. It was a Sunday evening.

We were all at home, ready to do work. Yes. In the image for, I'm not sure whether it's the album cover, or whether it's the promo image, but for reputation is Taylor Swift. Can I tell you how I'd like to describe it? Yes, please. It's like Taylor Swift spent the last few years or months doing some kind of junior college art class in which they did paper mache with old newspapers.

Sure. And she was inspired by that art class and made an Instagram of herself in black and white kind of bleeding into a ransom note looking kind of thing that's like half newsprint, half portrait of Taylor Swift and like a commentary on like media. Yes. And it's like it's pretty clearly the New York Times font, which is funny. Yeah. Well, Washington Post uses a similar one, I will say.

That's true. You are the font expert. I don't know why I'm waiting into this. It's just like sort of generic newspaper font. Yes. It reminded me the most of like actually something Taylor Swift thinks would be in T. Magazine. Sure.

Though doesn't T. Magazine use that font? Yeah. Sure. I don't know. But I just was sort of like, I feel like she just thinks she's being really. Right. Forward thinking with her type typography. The styling is also interesting.

A lot of jokes in the ring or slack about what kind of fake punk off, whatever, what seal thing she's doing. The best theory was that it was meant to look like she was wearing Yeezy. I don't think it is. But anyway. Who even thinks about Yeezy, the clothing line? I certainly don't. It's just not on my radar.

A lot of nerds on the internet do. All right. Because, you know, men's fashion is the new music nerddom. Anyway, the larger point of this is that Taylor Swift has an album and she is definitely going to be addressing everything that we've been saying about her in the past year. She's like targeting the media. She's targeting. She's addressing the snake thing head on.

She is taking it head on. Is kind of the takeaway of this. She's coming for it. When's the last time we got a public statement from Taylor at the VMAs when she was like, don't let anyone take this from you? Do you mean like in person a public statement? I think the VMAs is the last thing that I can remember, yes. Was that one year ago?

I thought that was actually the Grammys. Oh, yeah. You're right. It was the Grammys. You're right. You're right. Yeah. And I don't remember anything, but I'm sure there were probably some appearances between the Grammys and the Snapchat tape.

But she basically went dark after the Snapchat tapes. Yes, which was on the heels of a great July 4th, July 2016. Right. And then she really faded away. So anyway. Do you have a question for you? Yes. Do you think that she had an album plan for last year and she scrapped it?

Because that would have been on schedule for her every two years. Hard to believe shake it off three years ago. I know. Shake it off. That's a great song. You know, I did at the time. I'm not sure now. Can I share my like overarching like theory with you now?

What's going on here, Amanda? I mean, what's going on here is that she's playing into the public image that we've created for the past year. Most people are horrified by this or most people in our or better. I think it's incredibly savvy and it's working and everyone's playing into it and it's going to totally work. That's my theory is that this is like exactly what she should be doing. That doesn't mean that I like it or admire it or that it's good for the world. but like this is going to work out for her. And so I've been really critical of the way that she has handled the past year and a half.

And I think a lot of those criticisms, especially with respect to the election stand, like straight off. Sure. And let's not forget about the Tom Hiddleston fiasco. Yeah. I mean, she lost the plot in a lot of ways. And some of those are frivolous celebrity ways. And some of those are like ways that matter when it comes to kind of the state of our country. And we can just say the election thing was that she didn't come.

And then on election day, took a picture of herself waiting in line to vote wearing a sweater that could have been construed as, like, supporting Hillary Clinton, but like kind of was a stretch to do so. Right. She didn't take a side because she didn't want to alienate anyone. Yeah. Because she wants money from both Republicans and Democrats. Sure. I think it's funny that everyone is just like she definitely voted for Trump. I don't think she did. I don't think she did either.

But I definitely think that she didn't take aside because she wants money from everyone, which is possibly more cowardly. Good twist is that one of her closest friends is Carly Claw. the dates Josh Kushner, the brother of Jared. Yeah, that's a tricky one. So she's like four degrees of separation from the president. Right. And Carly and Josh, I believe, split for a while because... Back on, baby. They were singing together over the weekend. She's, Carly's, like, we should talk about Carly's journey another time. But anyway, yeah, I think Taylor has figured it out. I, um, kind of agree with you that she's, like, doing, like, the kind of lucrative, shrewd thing. Yes.

while also like not finding that entertaining. The problem is... I agree with that. It's not cute. No. It's annoying. But like on the other hand... She's trolling you and me.

What would be better for her to do? Like what, like, if you're like... Like, what is a better plan for her at this point? Because we've just gone through this Katie Perry's earnest cycle and it didn't go so well. And now, like, who is Katie Perry is like more unclear than ever? And I don't really know, like, what the alternative is for Taylor Swift. Like, sure, she could just kind of be like... like her happy go lucky girl empowerment, but like isn't the thing for the empowered woman is to like meet her critics and like fight them back?

So I guess she's kind of like it's like kind of makes sense of the trajectory. The thing is I feel like she's just morphing into like a Marvel character more than a pop star almost. In what sense? Because I feel like this has been a narrative before the snake stuff. Everyone was kind of like I think Taylor Swift is like embracing her villain and that's actually a good stroke for her. I don't see this as embracing her villainy. I see this as embracing her victim narrative, which has always been her narrative in one way or another.

You just substitute the media for boyfriends. And also, frankly, like, never forget the song Mean is about, like, a music critic what the list serves. So she's been doing this for a while. But is it villainy? I don't think it's villainy. What I meant by the, like, the Marvel thing is, like, I just feel like there's a lot of data points that connect to it.

to create character. Because I actually think, like, the quote unquote real Taylor Swift is the woman who reads Tumblr posts about her and then sends her fans a thank you letter in the mail or reads about someone who has cancer and makes a donation or finds out this store in Denver is on her side and sends them a thank you. That's true. I think that is like actually her purest self is like when she could like do acts of kindness.

But that also like maps very well with like a kind of. bright and sunny public Batman Bruce Wayne kind of thing. You know what I mean? And like I think that she has an origin story. Like she, she's a plucky girl who asked her parents if she could move to Nashville. And she,

you know, exploited her teenage experience. Not exploited. She used her teenage experience to write songs. And then she moved towards pop music. And all these things sort of like map together that I think that it's almost like, it's almost like too convenient.

But like that's because she's so shrewd. And it's so hard for me to not compare it to Katie. Perry, but it's like at all point, at all points, they're inverse of each other and now included. Yeah. They both in this year will have like embraced a new personalities kind of. Right. I think I just, this is definitely a new side of Taylor Swift, but she's always been petty. Like she is the person that you just described.

There is the Bruce Wayne philanthropic like, I'm just a nice girl. Here are my cookies. And, you know, that part of her to me has always been insufferable. I have always been drawn to the petty vindictive Taylor Swift, who is just ethering John Mayer in Dear John. And like the maple lattes on the, which was a code of reference to Jake Gyllenhaal on, you know, the red album. She has like been out in interviews always being like, well, he knows what he did. She's always been like extremely petty. Extremely petty and down for a publicity stunt.

Exactly. And I think the problem, honestly, with 1989 was that, the kind of pettiness was narrative had run out because she was just like the famous, most famous, which is pop star in the world. Like you're not, she wasn't coming from a place of. She wasn't an underdog. Yeah. She hadn't been wronged. And now she's been wronged again. It's just by us. And by Kim and Kanye. And by Kim and Kanye. It's going to be interesting. I hope that she knows better than to go after Kim. I hope that she is just doing full media trolling because it's working. Like if you tweet something today negative about Taylor Swift, like you did exactly what you wanted you to do.

And it's, you know, she'll get the attention that she needs that way. And that's all she needs from the media. And if the songs are good, then she'll sell them and it doesn't matter what we think. You know, it's funny because we live in a world where criticism is divorced from kind of commercial appeal. Sure. So it doesn't actually matter what anyone who's listening to this podcast thinks because they're going to, if the songs are good, then 10 million people will buy it. And it's so funny you say that because like she's the ultimate. emblem of the disconnect between criticism and commercial appeal, which has always existed in popular

music and rock music as it became popular. Yeah. But like, I don't like her, but I like her music. And yet, she definitely cares about both. And it somehow has negotiated. Yeah. Well, for a while, she was a critical darling. And everyone loved her, like, for, sorry, for Speak Now and for Speak Now, Fearless, Red, etc.

Even 1989 people liked, I think. Yeah, that's true. I think... Actually, in critics like 1989 more than like the general public. Yes, that's true. It's certainly true. That's Jack Antonoff buzz. Right.

But again, it was always from the perspective of, look at what this, you know, kind of young country singer is able to write and do. And like a little condescending almost, but appreciative of her. And then the kind of public monster became larger than the music. Yeah. Because, like, really what I think became so irritating was, like, the squad stuff and the sort of, like, seeming like the Queen Bee, like, just kind of like taking on friends when convenient. Exactly. Yeah. It was really annoying when she had, like, different, like, celebrities on stage with her at every stop along the Out of the Woods tour or whatever it was called.

It was not a good look. You know, and I was just... It's just a disingenuous. Like, I get made fun of a lot for, because by my friend David Jacoby for, like, having too many best friends. because I refer to several people as that. Right. But, like, I think girls, like, have, like, an inner circle, you know? Like, are many girls do?

Absolutely. And, like, Taylor Swift doesn't seem to. Like, it just is, like, or she does, like, always shifting. Like, who's in it? It used to be Selena Gomez, and then it was Carly Kloss, and then it was the Heim sisters. And then it was Carre Delvin. And, like, it was just, like, all kind of, like, actually you haven't seen Taylor and Caradelovine for a while.

And you want to know what? We haven't seen Caradelveen at all for a while. It's very true. And, like, things like that. Yeah, she's very. It was very performative, and she's always been performatively sunny. And the Taylor Swift dancing and the Taylor Swift reaction face was kind of the first Taylor Swift meme and the first sense of people kind of questioning her genuineness. And I think she's always been more successful as an underdog.

I was sitting here thinking about that. And I actually definitely prefer her coming from a place of pettiness and fighting back. But it probably says something about us that we can't accept someone. And they're just actual success on positive terms. Sure. She's kind of like Sigourney Weaver and Working Girl now. Yes. Like she's got it all.

And she's willing to befriend you. But she's also kind of like, I'm on top. Do not cross me. I don't know who the Melanie Griffith is in this situation. But that's how I think of her. And also I think she would be really good in a remake of that movie. Yeah. Which they should remake.

You think Taylor Swift should be at Working Girl? Yeah. She should be Sigourney Weaver. I don't know, man. She's not that great at acting. She might be horrible. She's, did you see The Giver? No, I didn't.

Let me tell you. Yeah, I did. And let me tell you, Taylor, so she should not play security. I bet she's really pissed. She didn't get a role in Ava do Renee's her ankle in time. Yeah. Could have been a good role for her, a good movie for her. What an All-Star Squad.

Here's what I'm hoping. Okay. I don't know if this is true. This is probably too much to hope for. Okay. Dare to dream. I hope she's angry. I hope she's petty.

Not because I think that those. are good qualities in a human relationship or that we should, you know, put forth in the world as individual people, but because it has definitely always made her best music, that is what has always motivated it. I also just think, like she shouldn't be an actress. She shouldn't be, when she was hanging out with models, it was annoying when she was trying to be kind of the global pop star, which is very different from being a musician, that was when she faltered because what she's really good at is, like, writing very specific songs.

And performing them. So I'm kind of hoping that she has been scared and has given up on some of the larger, the squad stuff, the squad bullshit. And just has a really fire album that's really angry. That's an interesting point. Like just kind of going back to her music. I think her, if I were like tasked with like writing definitive history of Taylor Swift, to me, the turning point would be we are never going back together. Yes. Because she says that was her first Max Martin song. And she's a lot more. likable and she's just like writing her own material. And she is, it's one thing to work with Jack Ansonoff or Tobias Jesso. It's really another to work with Max Martin or Dr. Luke, who I don't think she ever worked with, but like they were on the same level in that era. That was like 14 or whatever.

And I think that like when she embraced pop, not just as a sound, but as like a style or like a kind of music ethos, that some things really turned for her. And so I kind of agree with you that I hope this. album is more tailor-driven based on, like, her last 18 months or whatever. Yeah, and she has the material not to do it. Again, I think part of the problem was she just didn't, the fourth, like, sad breakup album. I mean, you have been on record many times about how she and Harry Stells were not dating. Yes.

That is a Juliet special. Definitely not. And it rings hollow. And those songs are really good, but kind of the magic alchemy that she had. Yeah. I mean, tear drops on my guitar is like a ridiculous song. that's so pure. I this morning woke up, saw it. I went through the stages of like, ugh, I'm too tired for this. Why is she doing this? I don't enjoy this. And then, oh, wow.

Like, she figured it out. And this is going to be really interesting to watch. And then I got in my car and blasted all too well, like five times in a row. I stayed in the parking garage to listen to like, you call me up again just to break me like a promise. Like, yes, let's do it. I'm ready for that. It's a good song. It's a great song. And I mean, this is the other thing. I do think that this was savvy. I think she has everyone right where she wants them in terms of getting the attention that she needs. And then also just the fact that she's Taylor Swift and she can sell a bunch of albums. But if the songs are bad, then we're in trouble.

Heartbreak music just doesn't just can't go wrong. I don't know. Do you think this is heartbreak music? No, it's not. You know what? Meen's great though. So she can do, she can do a very petty. And like Dear John is.

I really like our song, which is not. not a heartbreak song, but it is like a really, like, exuberant, like excited about a boy. Like, just like her pure emotions. Yes. Make good music. Yes. That's also why 21 by Adele is so good. It's because it's so pure.

It's so true. And it's like that is the ultimate breakup album. Yeah. I mean, it's so good. Adele. She's the best. I actually want to talk about Taylor and Katie Perry. Yes.

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We can have that conversation, too. That's tough times. I would like to. But first, I just want to say, I think it's, like, lame to, and also potentially a warning sign that her PR campaign and release is based around the VMAs. That's like the moment. That's like the event she's choosing as like the launching pad for a new song. I think they're doing something together and they're going to perform together on Sunday night.

So do you think we've just this has all been a setup for the last like three months of Katie Perry also like using her press tour to shade Taylor? No, but I think it went really badly for Katie Perry. Like Katie Perry is hosting the VMAs because Katie Perry released a bad album that did not sell and had no hits. And she she has to be a personality now. She's got to be a host. She's doing American Idol and she's hosting the VMAs because she just needs to get her name out there and the music ain't working. I really bummed about it. It's tough. Like I'm bummed about it too.

You know. My dream collabo is Katie Perry and Kesha. That could happen. The former muses. So Katie Perry is not in a great place. And I think. Swish, swish, bish. That is a great song.

I love it. So, you know, hosting the VMAs is a sign of desperation as far as I can tell. And so I think she needs the rating. She needs to do anything. The blaming Taylor, weird live stream, lay it all out. Like, I'm trying to learn about the world approach did not work for her. Yeah. And I think it's not.

And I don't think it particularly worked for Taylor and you can see them brokering some sort of mutual. They both, they need each other. You know, like Taylor needs the VMAs because she needs attention. And again, she's doing it before the VMAs. maze because there's a built-in stage and she'll have MTV behind her and she just has the promotional, like the distribution models. So it doesn't matter what like media Twitter says. What's the best recent pop record release? Certainly not Katie Perry doing her where a YouTube thing. And you mean like the kind of release strategy. Yeah. I mean, obviously it's Beyonce.

Sure. Yeah, it's always Beyonce. But beyond, it's like the Beyonce exception. Yeah. Okay. But like beyond that, there hasn't really been a good one. Anti by Rihanna is now critically adored took a really long time to catch on and also just kind of like a weird record well it was just it was on title title title title it wasn't it also like a it was a title samsung or title cell phone and then it got leaked i mean they just absolutely screwed up the weird i think i mean she got millions of dollars for it and everyone loves it and she's riana so i think higher sorry just and charity is what it is top five riana song i fucking love it it like brings tears to my eyes i just love it what else i'm like i can't really think have a good pop record launch.

But I just don't think the answer is the VMA. It's like sure she can get a ton of attention. But I just feel like that's charting a weird course as your launch point. What are her other options? I don't know. I think don't even tease it. Like I think she should have pulled to Beyonce. She's been gone long enough.

She should have just dropped it. Yeah. I think probably she was too nervous about the past year and a half and of like being completely savaged in the press because here's the thing. She is playing. She's trolling us. She's trolling people who pay attention to these things. If you're listening to Jam Session, she's trolling you.

Welcome. We're thrilled to have you as a part of our community. But she's trolling us because that's the best way to play the media. But I think she's also just kind of, she's aware that there are 8 million people who, more than 8 million people. A majority of people don't reach Twitter, have no idea what we're talking about. Right. Have mixed feelings about Kim Kardashian and really like shake it off and are just going to buy the album. Right.

And to reach those people, she needs MTV. She needs, I mean, I wonder who will put her on a magazine cover at this point. But everyone will, but I will be curious to see how the interviews go. I think Vogue. That's my guess. Yeah, probably. I think that another question I have for Taylor Swift in her future, so much of her audience that sustained fearless and red was very young.

It was like a 13-year-old girl's. And so, like, our fans growing up with her, or have they moved on? I don't know the answer to that, but I think that's, like, kind of interesting to me. Because those kids are not really, like, probably that excited about the VMAs.

They're like, why isn't this on Netflix in between screenings of 13 reasons why? You know what I mean? Like, I don't know. I just think that she in some ways is thinking traditionally with, like,

how this PR campaign is going so far. Yeah, and I think that's okay. I mean, Katie Perry certainly tried to go, like, untraditional, and like hit the internet crowd. It didn't work out. Right. That didn't work out.

Mom's are going to buy Taylor Swift albums. I'm certainly going to stream it. Children are going to buy Taylor Swift. You know, a lot of people. Probably because all the music is on, yeah, because she upsaged Katie Perry. She's back, baby. So let's go back to VMA's Katie Perry. So she definitely has to be performing there because it's the only reason that you would pick this week to release because otherwise you're being upstairs by the eclipse, which I still can't believe that she released the first thing like an hour before the damn eclipse.

That was very weird. That is fire your social media person. Fire them. Just started a couple hours later. Just I don't know what's going on with you. Because as soon as the eclipse is over, it was time to move on. So that would have been much better. Yeah.

This is what I'm saying. But, you know, you've also got Game of Thrones. It's summer. So half the people are, it's either first day of school or whatever. There are just a bunch of things. So the only reason to do it is because you want the VMA's bomb. So I think she has to be doing something in the VMA's. I think Katie Perry also kind of screwed it over because I would have, I think the festival circuit would have been good for her.

But Katie Perry got those slots. Is the festival circuit Taylor's audience? No, but I think it would have been good for like a reset. I don't think she needs a reset with this. What I think is so, Gina's about this is that she's just kind of middle fingering all the people who have been an asshole to her and she doesn't need us. And she doesn't need us. No.

And that's great. Go make millions of dollars playing to all of the people who are going to buy her album anyway. Can you remind me when it's coming out in November? November 10th. I just was thinking about how Ed Shearin was like, yeah, it'll be out around Christmas. He was correct. So anyway, you asked me at the beginning whether I think. that she scrapped an album. And I would have said, I think last week I would have said no.

I just think that she's completely lost and she has no idea what she's doing. Now I'm a little more inclined to say yes that she scrapped it or pushed it. Who do you think is one person that, like, who will be like a guest on her album that will surprise us at Shearons off the table? Not surprising and obvious. I hope that there are no guests. I think that this is, I think that this should be about her, I think it will be better if it's about her because that's what she's best at. And again, like, I feel like I'm championing like self-absorption and pettiness. Yeah, but she has always excelled. She has been best when she is obsessed with herself. Lindsay Dill adds mentioned this in our slack. What odds? I don't know how to do odds. How likely is

it that Kanye West is on this album? I think it's completely unlikely. Okay. I think that she, Katie Perry needs Taylor Swift as much as Taylor needs Katie, so that's why they would do something together. I think. But beyond that, I think this is not about making peace. Not reconciliation. Yeah, I don't think it's about reconciliation. I don't think this is about middle fingers in the air. So this is lemonade to you. No, because lemonade was about important issues and was about a larger slice of America and the black woman's experience. And this is about Taylor Swift, like getting called a snake on the internet. And one is important and one is performance. And like, you know, we talk about celebrity and all of these things. It's fun for us. This is our sport or one of, this is my sport and one of your sports. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And like, I think it's fun that Taylor's doing it, but it's not. Okay.

I'm having fun with some hypotheticals here. Yeah, let's go. Will she? I could be so wrong. It sounds by her doing help with the hypotheticals. Will she reference the, I'd very much like to be excluded from this narrative? No screenshot. I hope so. That is the only good thing that she has done since.

Since all too well. I was about to say all too well, and I was trying to think of something more recent. 1989's good. And also, by the way, she didn't do that. Her publicist did. Blank Space is a really good song. I loved Blank Space. Me too.

Yeah. Had some really fun times in 2014 singing that one. 1989 was fine. That's good. It was nice. Blank Space is on that, right? My standards are higher for her because I think she's actually a talented musician. I agree.

She is talented. She's good at what she does. Do you have any other hypotheticals? Will Jack Antonoff be on over half the songs as a co-producer? sincerely, deeply hope not. He seems like a perfectly nice person. I don't know him. He makes nice music.

Too much of pop music right now sounds like him. And 1988 and is my least favorite Taylor Swift album. Kendrick Lamar. Well, she ran it back with him for a song. I think he's actually most likely of like everyone who's really popular right now. Right, because he'll hop on anything. Oh, or Migos. Oh, my God.

If she does Migos. No way. This is, she won't. She need no features. I hope that she knows better. She probably doesn't. Something today made me think that she has her head back on straight. Not on straight, but she has regained a sense of self, whatever that sense of self may be.

I think features would be a mistake because they have been historically for her. Cool. I'm not looking forward to the Taylor Swift experience, but I am looking forward to the tunes. I'm looking forward to the music. If she's got a whole campaign of I'd like to be extortion, from this narrative. And she, oh, you know what I wanted to talk about? What's that, Amanda?

This is why you were gone. And this is interesting in terms of her late peer repositioning. So two weeks ago, kind of before, and it was clearly timed, before she deleted everything from social media, she, um, Taylor to have testified in her ongoing trial, the allegations that a DJ host groped her. And she went to trial and she testified. And it was what you would call a quote, internet victory. Sure.

People were very charmed by her testimony. which I found really interesting, because could I read some of it? Sure. McFarland also tried to redirect accountability to Swift's bodyguard, who he said could have reacted to protect her if an assault really did occur. She reminded McFarland that her bodyguard is not the one who supposedly assaulted her, saying, I'm critical of your client sticking his hand under my skirt and grabbing my ass. Thing they present her a photo.

Gabe, this is a photo of him with his hand up my skirt, with his hand on my ass. You can ask me a million questions. I'm never going to say anything different. I never have said anything different. They ask why the photo doesn't have any evidence of wrongdoing. She says, because my ass is located in the back of my body. They ask about the other woman in the photo and whether Taylor is confused about who she was. And Taylor says, yes, she did not have her hand on my ass.

She just, she only uses the word ass, which I thought was fascinating from a witness preparation. Sure. I would not have thought that snarky was the way to go in a jury situation. Apparently was. She won. She did. But it was very interesting also to watch the Internet. kind of embrace the snarkiness.

Yeah. And it was just kind of like, okay, as long as you have the zingers and you position it the right way, the internet will always support you. Support you. Which is very true. And many lesser celebrities have, you know, many people, celebrities and politicians have gone a long way on that one. So I think it might be interesting.

If she can get the tone right, she can do snarky. But I think also if she can get the tone of this whole thing right, it might be fun to watch. Or it might be interesting. So this is kind of a table setter. Yeah. That'll be a good chapter in a Taylor'ship biography. It'll begin with the trial. How it set the table for reputation.

Yeah. Thanks to listening to this jam session, Taylor's so spectacular. Thank you to Hotel Tonight. And thank you to my co-host, Amanda. Thank you, Juliet. You're welcome.