The Press Box - Jason Reitman Is Not Here to Make a Blockbuster | The Big Picture (Ep. 466)

Episode Date: May 10, 2018

Ringer editor-in-chief Sean Fennessey chats with filmmaker Jason Reitman about his early box office success with movies like ‘Juno’ and ‘Up in the Air,’ the complicated nature of making movies that are not meant to be blockbusters in 2018, and his new and terrifying film about parenting, ‘Tully,’ starring Charlize Theron. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Clearly, I'm not going after box office. Like, this is not my daily objective. I'm telling personal stories, and I'm telling them, trying to tell them at a time when people generally don't want to finance these movies. I'm Sean Fennacy, editor-in-chief of The Ringer,

and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show with the most interesting filmmakers in the world. Today's guest has made seven films and experienced several phases of a director's life, and he's barely even 40. He's been a film festival hot shot, the creator of a cultural phenomenon, an Academy Award nominee, and a critical target.

It's Jason Reitman, who's best known for directing Juno, up in the air, and thank you for smoking, in a wonderkin burst at the beginning of his career. Reitman hasn't had a movie in theater since 2014, but his new one, Tully, is a reunion of sorts with the screenwriter and creative partner Diablo Cody and Charlize Theron, with whom the duo made the underrated young adult in 2011. Tully is a striking comedy with a puzzle at its center,

focused on Theron's character Marlowe, a mother of three, struggling to balance her life, her marriage and her children. Until a night nurse named Tully comes into her life and changes all that very quickly. I talked to Ritman about his career, making a movie about parenthood that terrified me, and the intriguing film he is coming later this year.

Here's Jason Ritman. Very excited to be joined by Jason Ritman. Jason, thank you for coming in. Absolutely. So Jason, Tully is your new film. It's your first film in a few years. I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about what was happening in the in-between

from your last movie to now. I know you were working on a TV show, but were there other films that were potentially drawing you in, or was this something very special? You know, we shot Tully a little over a year ago, maybe a year and a half ago. So we finished the film, and I think Focus looked at Mother's Day and said, that's our date. And because of that, we held on to the film for a little bit. Although we brought it to Sundance, and then I had an idea for an edit I wanted to do.

So we actually made a change after Sundance. Oh, interesting. What's that like when you have a movie that is sort of finished, and there's a long period of time passing before the world can see it. This is my first time. In the past, I've always been kind of on a race to a festival

and a release. This was the first time where we made the movie and I actually started another movie. I'm actually finishing another movie right now that I'm going to have done by the end of the year. So it was unusual. In fact, there was a moment earlier this year

where we had the avid setup because we're cutting the other movie and there was a change I wanted to make on Tully and we put Tully into the same Avid and I had two days. different movies in The Avid at once. I mean, it was a part of me that wanted to create my own little odd Marvel cinematic universe of my two indie films. Yeah, that kind of leads into the conversation, I think, about working with Charlize again and then working with Diablo again. You are

creating a sort of continuum of stories here. What's it like when Diablo says, I have an idea for you? I mean, that's, you know, it's the best day of the year. And that's, you know, better than Christmas and my birthday put together. She and I are around the same age. And for whatever reason, we're on some sort of similar timeline where when something strikes her and she can articulate it, it's usually something I was already feeling. She said, I want to make a movie about a woman who just had her third child. She's going through some postpartum. And she said one other thing, which I'm not going to say on the podcast. And I said, that's great. You should go write that. And six weeks later, there was a screenplay. What happens in the in-between time of the screenplay? Do you have to then go

find a star to get attached? Do you have to go raise money for it? What's that process like for right now in the stage of your career. Particularly on this film, because I knew Charlize was perfect, I could literally just forward the email, which was, you know, about as little work as one could have to do to get their movie star. Yeah, it's convenient to have that email address. Yeah, and it's good that we bonded the way that we did on the last film.

You know, after young adult, Charlize and I have just been actively looking for something else to work on together. I mean, it's kind of almost strange that it took the five years that it did. we wanted to get back to set so badly. Yeah, I feel like young adult was well liked when it was released, but has kind of grown in the consciousness, the more people see it, the more they catch it on cable. It has, like, its reputation has gotten bigger over time. Have you felt that?

Of course. I mean, people, and particularly coming off of Juno and up in the air, which had kind of unusual, even thank you for smoking, kind of people got moment one. And Young Adult was a film that people did not understand why we made it when it came out. And then within a couple years, I found, particularly amongst directors, when I was speaking to directors, they would say, oh yeah, that's my favorite film years. And it just, people suddenly got it. What do you think it was that people were catching on to? It's a great question.

I don't know. I mean, people struggle with unlikable heroes in general, but unlikable female heroes are particularly tricky for people. And I don't know. I mean, look, it's a movie about a woman trying to do. ruin someone else's marriage. It's not exactly heroic, but it's funny and it's real and it's flawed in a way that really attracts me. This is now the third time you've done this with Diablo and the second time with Charlize, but taking a story that is very much from a woman's point of view, very much a woman's story, and then being essentially in charge of executing that story,

what's it like to have that responsibility and then how are you also making sure that there's not too much of your particular chromosome getting in the way of it? If I was answering honestly, I would say that it's not something that I think about on a daily basis. I think if you froze up and thought about it, I mean, we're sitting here in a room surrounded by posters of athletes. And, you know, if you asked an athlete, you know, what do you think about right before you, you know, if you shoot the ball? It's like, nothing. You know, it's just shooting the ball. You have to have developed instincts over time that let you know that something feels right or it doesn't.

I wouldn't trust myself to write those movies. I would clearly not trust myself to act in those movies, but it's a very different job. Diablo is able to kind of articulate her story, and those stories are very personal to her. They're not 100% autobiographical, but they are tonally and emotionally autobiographical. And once that information is on the page,

my job is about making them feel honest and authentic on the screen and capturing tone. capturing tone is genderless capturing tone it's I don't know it's almost like playing music Had you been wanting to do a story about parenthood In this particular way You know, no

And it's funny because I don't even think of this movie As a movie about parenthood I think of parenthood is the location You know, my father, you know, talked to me about this once When he calls me and he goes, hey Jason You got to come over and watch 24 with me I was like, the Kiefer Sutherland show It's like, yeah, yeah, it's amazing.

You got to come over. Okay, so I go to his house, and he puts it on, and we start watching. We watch, like, four episodes. And it's great. It's great. I'm not sure if you watch it. I have. It's a great show. It's a fantastic show.

Very interesting. In those first few seasons. Why is this show so good? There's so many TV shows about terrorism. Why is it so great? And he said, oh, this isn't a show about terrorism. Terrorism is a location. This is a show about a man trying to save his family.

That was one of the greatest cinema lessons I've ever had. it's too easy to mistake your plot for what your movie is actually about. Juno is not about teen pregnancy. Teen pregnancy is a location. It's a location to talk about the bigger idea, which is, what is the moment that we grow up? What is it about 16-year-old girls growing up too fast? 30-year-old men refusing to grow up. A woman in her 30s who refuses to believe that she is an adult until she actually has a child.

That's what Juneau is about. It takes place in the location of teen pregnancy. Thank you for smoking is not about smoking. It's not about cigarettes. It's about parenting. It's about choice. And it could have taken place in the world of guns, booze, religion, 100 things. So Tully takes place in the world where a woman just had her third child, and it uses that as a location.

It uses postpartum as a location, but it's not really about that. It's about the moment when you become a parent and you start to think of your younger self as a different human. being. You start to think about that relationship you have with your younger self and who you thought you'd be by this age. Do you personally feel yourself missing that younger version of yourself? Because, you know, you've had a lot of success. Oh, of course. Oh, of course. I mean, like, I'm human, you know. I mean, I feel like I miss the on-ramp all the time. I've had a strange life, you know. I grew up very fortunate, you know, my father and his success. And then 16, I moved in with my girlfriend. It was 26. And I was still in high school. And I've always felt like,

oh, I'm not where I'm supposed to be right now. But I think everyone feels that. Everyone feels. I'm not where I'm supposed to be. I was supposed to be doing this or I was supposed to be doing that. And all three of these movies that Diablo has written all deal with that idea in one way or another. Feeling like you're too soon or feeling like you're too late or feeling like he didn't get the rule book or something. How are you feeling about yourself in your career right now?

You feel like you're where you're supposed to be? It's a great question. And look, as the son of a director, I probably think about this more than, you know, the average director. I'm very conscientious about the idea of a career. There's all these directors who are like retiring early. You know what I'm talking about? I do, yes. And that always, there's a strange kind of ego too, kind of like I define when I start and when I finish and where I am at my career.

My filmography is complete. Yeah, exactly. You can't really control that. I had four films that were really well received. I've had two films, you know, after that that really were not. And now, you know, I feel really lucky that Tully is getting the love and that it's getting and that it seems to speak to people. And I'm really excited about the next one. It was really humbling, you know.

Look, there's a thing after those first three films in particular, you know, people start throwing around, you know, very kind words and it's very easy to believe them. And it was probably a powerful and important experience to go through a couple of things. films to put my feedback on the ground. Are you comfortable with the sort of return to form narrative that comes when a movie like this gets a lot of love? I certainly, I prefer return to form than, you know, can't quite figure it out. I mean, return to form is a lovely thing to say, although it presumes an internal narrative in which I am trying to please an audience and sometimes figuring it out and sometimes

not figuring it out. When realistically, process-wise, I'm just telling stories that are in my heart. I mean, you look at all my movies. Clearly, I'm not going after box office. Like, this is not my daily objective. I'm telling personal stories, and I'm telling them, trying to tell them at a time when people generally don't want to finance these movies. I suspect that people are asking about this, but could you know have happened in 2018 idea?

I don't know. What do you think? I mean, I write about it and think about it quite a bit. I think it's less likely. Right. But you would know better than I do because you're in the meeting. I think you would actually know better than me. Like, I'm just, Juno's a script that I read and fell in love with and I really wanted to direct.

I didn't actually get the job at first. I hired another director. And then I did get the job. And we made this little movie that I thought will bring to festivals. Hopefully it'll like be like, thank you for smoking. Find kind of, find a small piece of the audience that digs it. And then I think everyone involved was just kind of shocked that it caught a wave. Because you're asking in this state of the world where we watch Marvel movies at the theater,

we watch other things on Netflix and Hulu, that's what you're asking, right? Yeah, a little bit. Essentially could there be an independent movie phenomenon or like a specialty film phenomenon? Because that seems, that's less and less common. I guess so. Although, and it depends on kind of what you consider as a phenomenon. Like, is the Florida Project a phenomenon? Not quite on the level of Juno.

I mean, Juno is a, like, is a century smash. Juno made a lot of money. And I just don't know. Also, and also imprinted on the culture, you know, that it became quotable. People bought hamburger phones. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, like there was a day where I got a call from both Steven Spielberg's office and Howard Stern's office, and they both wanted hamburger phones for their daughters.

There you go. That was crazy. Absolutely. Look, it still happens. It happens every year. There's movies that capture people's imagination. I mean, the shape of water, you know, caught people's imagination. Black Swan caught people's imagination.

And it's going to happen. As a filmmaker, it probably only happens to you once in your life. And it's strange when it happens really early. And you just kind of sit there after going, what the hell happened? Would it be gratifying for something like that to happen now, aside from the obvious sort of financial benefit that comes to something like that. I just want to be able to make movies.

I think that's it. And I think when I talk to fellow filmmakers, that's what we talk about the most is, are we still going to get the chance to make movies? Because I'm in love with movies. I want to be at the movies three, four times a week. I watch a movie probably every day. Very similar.

Yeah, I grew up. That's all I wanted, you know. And I would be dropped off in a movie theater as a form of babysitting because that's just where I wanted to be. I just wanted to go into a multiplex and go from theater to theater and watch the trailers

and think about the trailers and it's always where I was more comfortable. And I love television. I mean, I love this moment in television and I'm devouring all that too. But I'm really into how things end. And television is not about endings. Movies are about endings.

Sorry, does that make sense? It makes a lot of sense. It's a great segue to a conversation about endings. We're not going to spoil the ending of your movie, but I'm curious about what it's like to... It's been out for five days. I haven't seen it by now. I don't want to ruin it for people.

People should see it. But when you have a movie that has a particular kind of ending, like what does it like to work on it? Are you very careful about the way that you're communicating to people all the time? Is it fun to do it that way? Is it like you have a secret golden suitcase? I was much more nervous, strangely,

about up in the air, as far as the ending goes. And I was very secretive about that script, and I didn't want people to know what happened at the end of that. And that was my first experience with kind of pulling the rug from underneath the audience. And that was always watching the moment at the end of up in the air when George arrives at Vera's door

was always the greatest thrill for me. Even though it's a moment where we hurt the audience, I loved watching the audience during that moment. On this film, we went out with an objective, which was to make a movie in Tully, in which you get to the end of the film and you realize you've been watching two movies the whole time. And there was something really exciting about that

from a constructive point of view, the kind of real nuts and bolts version of my job, where you are thinking about how each scene is built from department to department, from wardrobe to camera to lighting, to movement of the camera, to editing, to music, and all of those were involved in this double narrative. you know, that I've said that, you know, this movie is kind of like one of those movie posters

where you look at it straight on, but if, you know, if you move your head, the poster changes, you know, and that's what this movie is, but you don't realize it until the closing moment that two things have been happening simultaneously, but you were only aware of one of them. Was it fun to do it that way? Loved it. I mean, that was the thrill. When Diablo brought up the idea of this movie, that was part of the two-sentence pitch, and it became a very exciting thing, because I also, I make more. movies with all the same people. So the idea that now this group, this family of storytellers,

is going to work on this thing where we are going to be telling this double narrative the whole time. But making this a movie so that the first time you watch the movie, it's about the unveiling. The second time you watch the movie, if you so choose, you actually follow it through Tully's character instead of Marlowe's character. You're following Mackenzie Davis instead at Charlize and suddenly you see her narrative in a whole new light and you were asking all these different questions and no matter how much you want to dig on this movie, there is something waiting for you. Because we thought out all the beats. So I had this experience. I watched it for a second time last night. I watched it with my wife who was watching it for the first time. It was interesting

to be watching it with her because she was just a mess by the end of it, very moved, crying and I was like kind of stroking my chin, you know, kind of like identifying Easter eggs, identifying signals of what's to come. So it was fun that way. The last time I recall feeling that was like, Get Out. Get Out is very similar. Oh, what a generous thing to say. I mean, that movie was absolutely brilliant.

Right. But similarly, like, there are some guideposts that you can see when you're watching the movie. Well, and Get Out's such a well-constructed movie, too. And I love movies that kind of deceive you that way, where there's something about Get Out in its storytelling that is, at first, so casual. It's so casual in the way the kind of actors are. kind of being with each other.

It's so casual and it's just filmmaking. He's not being that tricky with the camera. And then it's like before you know it, you're lost in this dimension. You're lost in a web that he's been weaving around you without you even knowing it. And I think there's something so much cooler about that than the director who, like within the first five shots, you're like, I get it. You're doing all these moves. Yeah.

But the director who can kind of like sneak up on you, like Jordan did on that is, I mean, that's a thrill of an experience. Yeah, it's cool. It's cool just to think of movies as a puzzle box sometimes, too, and not in like a kitschy way, like in a sincere way, that there's something to unwrap and to discover and to learn and to figure out. A hundred percent. And those are some of my favorite film experiences. And it's funny, right, because we live at a time when trailers have trailers. You know, like there's commercials for trailers,

or even like you go on YouTube and you watch a trailer, and there's like a five-second version of the trailer at first, like, you're about to watch this trailer. We are inundated. So the idea of you seeing a video of you seeing a video. movie where you literally don't know nothing about it going in. It's so rare. I went to see, I was at Toronto Film Festival one year. I showed up at the theater. I had a pass and I said, hey, what's about to start? I'll see whatever. They're like, oh, there's this movie called Memento

starting at noon. I was like, sure. And, you know, if all you knew was the name Memento, I really thought this was going to be some kind of drawing room romance or something, Memento. And then that movie unfolded in front of me. And I am so happy I saw that movie knowing nothing, not even hearing that there was buzz on it. Yeah. Has it been difficult for you to maintain the mystery around your movie a little bit, given the fact that we have trailers for trailers for trailers now? I mean, to a certain extent, just because we're coming out literally the week in between Avengers and Solo. So I wasn't really worried about the cacophony of Tully Nois. That's fair. Although I did want to ask you,

What does it like to kind of be counter programming, for lack of a better word? Like, D. I mean, I don't know. I mean, it's so strange, right? I can easily go watch two different kinds of movies in a day. That's not an unusual thing for me. The idea of seeing the Florida Project and Solo in the same day would sound like an awesome day to me, where maybe for other people, that would be schizophrenic.

So this is one of those things. I don't think I have the right perspective. Other people would have a better perspective on that. Is there any part of you that wants to do something that is big, like that. Maybe not specifically a Marvel movie, but something that is $50 million budget, $60 million budget. My next movie is larger. My next movie is the Gary Hart story of the frontrunner. And that was a much more expansive shoot as far as its tone and style. It takes place in 1987. It was a timepiece. It's a lot of world creation creating Washington Post, Miami Herald,

his whole campaign moving around the country. Is it your biggest production? It felt like up in the air as far as the amount of just kind of movement, but then Frontrunner has like 20 main characters that you're always following like a Robert Altman movie. So that had scale to it. But I don't think that's what you're asking. I mean, what you're asking is more just in the nature of like a summer movie. Yeah, is it a Jason Reitman action movie.

Yeah, but it would probably be different. For me, it all comes down to that thing I was talking about earlier, which is what are you saying and why are you saying it? All the other stuff is just becomes, um, for a number. Like if I was going to make die hard, which I think is just one of the most brilliant movies ever made. Perfect movie. Yeah. Or alien.

Big movies. I'd be thrilled by those challenges. For me to tell it, I would be looking for something underneath about why I was telling it. I mean, I guess I would make die hard, but I'd be obsessed about the kind of the Holly Janera love story and like, and him like getting to her. And maybe that is what propelled them while they were making the movie. Maybe that was really core. This is very particular to me watching Tully, but I don't have children. And I walked out of the movie and I was like, I'm not having children under any circumstance.

And you have kids, Diablo has kids. Charlese has kids. What's it like to hear that? Is there a part of you that thinks of this as like a cautionary tale in some ways, too? I mean, look, it's so many things. I mean, one, look, we're living in a moment where more than ever, I think adult human beings are comfortable with the concept of I could have kids or I could not have kids. And there is no stigma. And I think that's a great thing.

I don't think anyone should feel like they necessarily need to have children to complete the bingo card of life. Simultaneously, I don't think Charlie's Diablo or I had felt as though we had seen a very accurate portrayal of that moment. in parenthood on screen. Those first few months where you feel lost and you feel scared and you feel shame coming at you from everyone who's telling you, are you doing this? You should be doing this. Are you not doing it? I can't believe you haven't done that yet.

Have you diagnosed your child with A, B, or C, are they on this medication yet? And Diablo wrote a movie about what it feels like to be within that and how scary it feels. And that all we're supposed to say is that parenthood is a blessing and it's this miracle. and it's the greatest thing that ever happened to me. But the truth is, in the middle of night, you are terrified that you're ruining your child, you don't recognize the person that you are anymore, you don't recognize your body anymore,

you lose your memory. And we wanted to, I mean, look, that's a comedy, and we do approach it with humor, but we wanted it to be authentic. We want people to look on screen and go, yeah, that's what it really feels like. Now, if, you know, if this is the movie that launches your vasectomy, then, you know,

Put that on the poster, yeah. Perhaps the film the launch a thousand vasectomies. I'd want only that you felt like you had an authentic experience with the film. Yeah, it's funny. You called it a comedy, although there are moments, like, I think particularly of Jonah, Charlie's character's son,

kicking the back of the seat in the car. And I see moments of, you know, my siblings and my wife's siblings dealing with their children. And it's like really more of a horror movie in those moments. You know, how do you, kind of shift between tones in a movie like this.

Some of it is funny, but some of it is bleak. Look, everyone has their version of a horror film. I love being on airplanes for other people. Being on an airplane is a horror film. Wait, what's going on?

You like being on airplanes? Exactly. I know you made a movie that isn't part about that. Oh, no, that is like just that. That's happiness for you? Oh my God. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Really? Now, for some people, being at a children's party, horror film. Yeah.

I 100% agree. Like, there is no scarier place. The day that, like, and my daughter's 11 now, so we're kind of getting away from it. But, like, when she was like four, five, six, those children's parties, like, deploy me to the Middle East. Like, I just do not. Oh, I hate kids parties. That's very funny. So we talked a little bit about the frontrunner, but I am wondering, like, what are some other things that you want to achieve?

What are some other kinds of stories that you want to tell? Are there particular story types that you're interested in? There really is no kind of genre. I don't stay up at night thinking about, you know, when am I going to find my Western or when am I going to find my musical? First and foremost, like, I just hope I get to make movies for the rest of my life. I really hope they continue to exist and that people support them. How do you choose?

How do you say it's time? Like, obviously if Diablo calls, you guys have this five-year cadence. Yeah, I mean, that's its own thing. I think with Diablo, she, you know, she puts in the call and it's like, it's time to tell them the next chapter in this lifelong day. story that we're telling together. And I think people will find that connective tissue when they watch Juno Young Adult Tully and whatever comes next. Otherwise, I've always said that making the movie is just tough. It's just hard. It takes up years of your life. And look, you can get to the end of it

and it can be a sensation that people, it stays with people the rest of their lives. You can also get to the end of three years or more. And they could literally watch half of it on an airplane and turn it off and never think about it again. And you've just literally taken a sizable percentage of your life and donated it to something that means nothing. So if you're going to make a movie, you have to make that movie. I've said to people, think about the script, think about another director directing it.

If thinking about the other director directing your script feels worse than if they slept with your wife, you've got to make that movie. If you're okay with them directing that script and you're kind of like curious to see their version, don't make that movie. That's harrowing. That's a comparison point. I end every show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they've seen? Jason, what's the last great thing you've seen?

Oh my God. And I'm sorry, and maybe you've already talked about this ad nauseum, but Donald Glovers, this is America video. Tell me. You're the first person to say it. You may not be the last. It's transcendent. It's exceptional. It's performance, it's filmmaking, it's music, even at a moment when we are talking about race in America, and it feels as though everybody's talking about it.

And certainly there isn't another conversation at. Certainly there isn't a new piece of art that could expose more. I felt I learned more watching that four minutes. I felt like I was given access to more in four minutes than anything since Get Out, anything in a long time. time. I think it's a work of art. I think it should be in the museum of modern art. I don't know how he did it. I don't know how he's able to make those performance shifts. I think it's like a performance on the level of chaplain. It's just extraordinary. Do you get jealous of other filmmakers like that? In a moment like that, it's a combo, right? Because there's always a feeling of

gratitude that something brilliant exists and the knowledge that it can hit play again and watch it and like and return to it and go back inside it. But then yeah, I mean that like how did he conceive of that shot? How did he conceive of all those feelings he was going to give? How many are intentional? How many are accidental? How many are easy? Just kind of like thrown a dart and seeing where it lands versus just like placing something right where it's supposed to be. And I'm sorry to go long on this on this answer, but filmmaking is like this weird magic trick where you're manipulating people's emotions from afar. Like I'm never going to meet the majority of the people who see my films, but I'm trying to dick with their heads or like I'm trying to affect their heartbeat

even though I don't know them. You are making thousands of tiny decisions that hopefully in their combination are going to trick them to elation or fear or opening them up about about a social experience or reconnecting with their history, you know, all this stuff. And you try to get better at, like, at first it's just like, I just want to make people laugh.

If I can make people laugh, I'll be happy. Then you're like, what if I can make them laugh at something horrible? Like, that would be kind of interesting. What if I could hurt them? But I'll, but I'll, but I'll,

but I'll, but I'll, but I'll, I'll bring them back, you know? And, and you're, you're doing all those things. So when I look at that music video, that short film, he's doing moves and, like I don't even know how he's doing them.

Not how did he get the camera from A to B, but like I don't know how he's touching all these places in my heart and in my brain. And my envy is high, but it is outweighed completely by my delight. Well, the magic trick of Tully worked on me, Jason. Thanks for doing the show. Thank you very much.

Thanks for listening to this week's episode of The Big Picture. More movie coverage. Check out my pal Shea Serrano on The Greatness of Melissa McCarthy over at the ringer.com. She has a new movie out called Life of the Party and he is writing about it. Then swing back here on Monday where I'll have an episode of The Big Picture with Ben Falcone, the co-writer and director of that movie, and also crucially, the husband of Melissa McCarthy. I chatted with Ben about making the Melissa McCarthy machine move. See you then.