The Press Box - Jemele Hill on the ESPN Layoffs, Life After the Worldwide Leader, Tweeting in the Musk Era, and More

Episode Date: April 20, 2023

Bryan is joined by Jemele Hill to discuss the news reported by CNBC that ESPN will be making layoffs beginning next week. Jemele reflects on the layoffs back in 2018 while she was still at the company, then discusses the similar experience had at CNN+. Later, they talk through what life has been like after leaving ESPN, and then react to current media stories from Elon’s Twitter to the Fox-Dominion lawsuit and settlement. Host: Bryan Curtis Guest: Jemele Hill Producer: Erika Cervantes Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, media consumers. Welcome to Press Box. Final edition, Brian Curtis of the Ringer here, along with producer Erica Servantes. Our guest today is a regular on this show. She is the host of Jamel Hill is Unbothered, the author of the recent memoir, uphill, and she happened to be sitting a few seats away from me

at WrestleMania 39. She is a writer and podcaster and former Intercontinental, champion, Jamel Hill. Thanks for coming on the press box. Thank you for having me. I appreciate being here. I remember there was one moment during a night of wrestling where Pat McAfee was in the wrestling ring and you and I locked eyes.

Like our worlds are all collapsing in a very odd way at this moment. Yeah, it was a little interesting to see that up close. I know Pat over the years and he's got definitely. I think one of the more versatile and interesting media careers out there, considering the variety of things that he's done. And it is able to do well, to be frank. You know, like, I think he's great on game day. He's great in the wrestling ring, apparently, and also has a good podcast.

So shout out to Pat McAfee for sure. I'd speak in sports media. Next week, according to a report from CNBC's Alex Sherman, layoffs are going to start at ESPN. There were a couple of rounds of ESPN layoffs before you left the company in 2018. What were those days like inside the building? It was tough because a lot of people that I consider to be friends, some of them were part of the cuts. Like Jane McManus, for example, she was part of the cuts.

And Jane is somebody I consider to be a friend. And interestingly enough, I think those layoffs actually happened in 2017. And we had just gotten, Mike and I had just gotten the Sports Center show. So we were just starting. And then the layoffs happened. And we gave our colleagues a goodbye on air that were laid off. And that was something John Skipper did not appreciate us doing that. But in part because we went too long, he actually printed out exactly everything that we said.

And I think in our minds, we thought it might have been three to five minutes. And it was like 17 minutes of us, just telling our colleagues, hey, you did great work, we'll miss you, this and that, because it was such an elephant in the room. And we didn't want to treat our audience like they were stupid. But in retrospect, I'm not sure that was the wisest decision at the time. Tell me if I'm wrong here, but I've always found the people in Bristol whose identities are most bound up in working for ESPN were often the people behind the scenes as much as the people on the air. Yeah, I mean, and that's the thing is that, and this unfortunately happened to us, is that when those, when word of those layoffs, you know, reach the public, then you see a public that doesn't understand, not just how media works, but doesn't understand who's most affected by it, that they're like cheering for people to be fired. And I'm like, you know, the thing is, you may not like me at all, and you may have issues with my opinions or whatever, and that's fine. But realize if something happens to me, it's happening to everybody on my show. And in most cases, the on-air talent, while, you know, it would be disappointing for anybody to lose

their job, but in most cases, they're going to be fine because they have contracts, they have, you know, the ability to be able to maybe secure another high profile paying job. The impact is very different. It's the people who, you know, some of the audio folks, producers, like people who work behind the scenes that get the most, who are the most impacted because they don't have a cushion. They don't have a lot of cases a soft landing. And many of them, especially at ESPN, have been there for years because it's one of those places that's considered to be a destination job. And so when these layoffs come, the people that will probably primarily be affected. are the people whose names you don't know.

I'm sure, I mean, if the reports are accurate, there's going to be people that you do know that might be in the awkward position of either having to take a pay cut or they just might be let go entirely. But those people who are let go entirely and they have on-air talent contracts, they're going to get all of their contract more than likely, right?

So it's just I think people need to understand like how this works and how this doesn't work for some of the people who would be impacted by these layoffs. What have your friends and former colleagues over there been feeling the last few weeks? You know, this is a little different because I think at least a good chunk of people that I know just got new deals, right?

And so I think they'll be fine and I think they feel secure about, you know, where they are. But, you know, I haven't gotten a sense from the people that I still know that they're really concerned. I think there's some on-air people that is. I think there's some producers who are definitely concerned about what this might mean for them

that producers who have been there a while and, you know, it's an unfortunate reality of our business. I mean, I've gone through sort of two different types of these things. One was the layoffs, as I mentioned, that I previously experienced at ESPN. And then, of course, CNN Plus, which was the show, the network that never happened. And it's tough.

always a tough time for everybody. And as I said, as much as you may not agree with some of the opinions that on-air people have or you don't like their style, whatever the case may be, realize that these are people whose families and livelihoods are being deeply impacted by this. In terms of programming, what's the biggest way ESPN has changed since you left five years ago? Well, I think there's less of what I used to do. Now, granted, I know the last on-air job I have with them is Sports Center. Sports Center is always going to be sports center. It's always is going to be the legacy brand, the jewel of the company in many respects. But, you know, first take is now one of one where I was there during a time where they had

a lot of different opinion shows. And I know they still have PTI and the Round the Horn, both, again, legacy shows. But a show like his and hers, I don't think would ever be made today or even highly questionable. You know, it just doesn't seem like that's the direction that they want to go in where they have like sort of opinionists who are able to create conversation. and yeah, there are opinion elements to a lot of the shows. You know, NFL Live, there's certainly an opinion element to that and NBA today.

But it seems like specialty shows is kind of, they leaned harder into those than when I was there. And now being sort of a general opinionist, I think it would be difficult in today's climate at ESPN to find your footing there if that's the service that you provide. So that, to me, has been the biggest change is that, you know, a lot of the people that I worked with during that, time, I don't know that they would have the same opportunities now that they did, you know, five or six years ago. I think I could make a list of the things you don't miss about working at ESPN. What do you miss about working there? You know, there's a certain energy to do in live television. And that was one of the bigger changes that happened for my career once I left, is that I was doing a lot more tape television because I realized the rest of the media universe

doesn't all operate the way ESPN did. So I missed the energy and even the chaoticness of doing live television. And, you know, when I went to work for other outfits, because they're not in the same position as ESPN from a production standpoint, you realize, you know, some of the amenities and some of the capabilities that you had at ESPN versus when I've gone to other places where that's not a thing. Like talking sports, I realize talking sports on other networks, not named ESPN, that don't have rights, is really hard. Okay.

You're showing steel photos all the time. Like, very difficult to do. Doable. People do it, obviously. But, yeah, it's not as much fun when you don't have, when you're not working for a company that has all the rights to all the sports. And so playing highlights is like literally not at the thing. So definitely missed that. And obviously the camaraderie, some of the relationships I've had.

But in some ways, those are hard to say that I miss because I've maintained a lot of those relationships. I mean, we may not see each other as frequently as we used to because we were in the building. But I've been happy that so many of the people that I knew and were close to there, how they've been able to really find their footing and really, you know, become faces of the network. You know, looking at somebody like Mina Kimes, for example. You know, and when I left in 2018, Mina was just starting to like really, really, kind of find it. And now she's like, you know, one of the faces of the network. So it's great when

I look at some of these faces who are friends, you know, Justin Tensley, somebody else who is a friend of mine and seeing all the stuff, seeing him now on Around the Horn, David Dennis and Monica McNutt. I met Monica when she was, I think she was doing an arena stuff in D.C. And now she's like everywhere. So I, that part gives me a lot of joy to see Monica and Malika Andrews and all these like younger, new emerging faces become the mainstays at ESPN. So, you know, I probably miss being able to up close and personal, watch them develop. But, you know, there's not really much I miss about ESPN.

It is, I realized how hard it was some of the things that I did there that I didn't realize in the moment were that hard. Like, doing daily television, five days a week is hard. And I didn't have an appreciation for how insane that is to do until I was able to get some distance. I was like, that was really crazy that I did daily TV for five straight years. What was I thinking? What do you tell people about life after ESPN?

Well, what I do tell them is that, listen, it's hard to put a price on freedom. And by that, I mean, you know, ESPN, like a lot of companies in that space, you know, they kind of consider themselves, all right? This is everything you want to do you're doing here. And it can be very difficult because you get. other opportunities to do stuff. And a lot of times, or at least a good bit of times, they shut it down. And most companies are like that. So they're not certainly not unique in that fashion.

But what I tell them is like, you know, yeah, I may have traded one job for 52 jobs. But when I want to do something, there's only one person I have to consult, and that is me. And so the freedom and the flexibility are just really priceless. I mean, for the first time in my entire professional career, which is, you know, knocking on three decades now, I actually got to pick where I wanted to live. And that's not a reality typically in our business because you have to go where the work is. And so being able to pick somewhere where I wanted to live, you know, plant some roots and really say like, oh, I'm going to be here the next 10 years was not something, was not an ability that I had ever in my career. I always was on the move and going where the work.

was. So what I would tell them is that the amount of freedom and autonomy you get sometimes creatively, it's just really hard to, it's really hard to put a number on that. And so the majority of people that I know, I'm struggling to think of somebody who isn't, but I think the majority of people that I know that left ESPN are very happy with what they decided to do afterwards. A couple of media stories I wanted to ask you about. Jamel, you've been known to tweet from time to time? How do you feel about being on Twitter in the Elon Musk era?

I mean, I'm just not sure really what to make of it. There are definitely some things in my feet that did not used to be there before. People I don't follow. And it feels like, especially like the right wing accounts, that there's been an explosion of them and they're all showing up in my timeline. I'm not really sure why, because I don't follow them.

And so it's like you're getting forced-fed this diet of nonsense sometimes. So there's one part of it. And then this whole threatening to take away the legacy blue checks or not, I'm like, I don't care that much about the blue checks. So I'm never paying for it. Like, no, I'm not going to pay for a blue check.

If they take it away and somebody's people start impersonating me, okay. You know? So, yeah, I mean, I think it's, I think people are just trying to make the best of it. But it does go to show you that, you know, Twitter was always something that was always, kind of unquantifiable. And I don't think it's any stretch to say that it's clear that the person

who is now running Twitter didn't really have a full grasp of that. Like it's not, you know, Twitter is a neighborhood, it's community, it's like all these things. And it's hard to put monetarily what that means. And, you know, I think what he's realizing, well, he probably already realized this, but I don't know if he cares, he doesn't have enough self-awareness to not know what he doesn't know. And I think it's showing up all the time and considering how there are so many ways Twitter has been used for good, particularly, you know, when you have conversations with activists and they tell you like how much Twitter has really helped, you know, them and getting attention on certain issues, certain cases, different things like that. I mean, it's disappointing because their fear and

it's a real fear is that that element of it will go away. So, you know, with Twitter, I guess I look at it Like, well, I guess Twitter was here for a good time, not necessarily a long time. So we'll see where this social media outlet is in another year. Did you ever think about leaving from Mastodon or some other service? I'm not about leaving period. Not just to, I didn't necessarily need to pick up anything else. And I've had that same thought about Facebook too. You know, social media in many ways it has made the world smaller.

but we also have to be careful in understanding that social media is not real life. I mean, it's real life, but not really. The majority of people are not on social media, right? But we think of it as being so massive, and I'm not saying that it isn't. But I still know plenty of people who are barely on social media or not on it at all. So all these things that feel so large to us, for those of us who are always consuming the platform, to a lot of people that are really not. And so yeah, like I don't, you know, I know that especially as a writer, it's tough.

And as a broadcaster, it's such a great way to get eyeballs on what you're doing. But I do constantly have this conversation with myself is like whether or not it's worth it. And there are days where I feel better about that than other days. And, you know, probably my favorite times on Twitter is when there's a water cooler talk around a particular, you know, show. Like right before we recorded this, I was watching Snowfall, which I'm totally obsessed with. And there's a whole conversation happening on Twitter about Snowfall. And it's fun to feel like you're sitting down and watching a show that everybody loves with thousands of friends. So I think I will miss the community part of it if it all goes really, really astray more so than it is now.

But I don't know. I probably would have to guess I don't know that I would miss it as much. like Twitter specifically, I don't know that I would because I'm old enough to have remembered life before social media. So I think I'd be fine. In other media news, we thought we were going to have a big defamation trial this week. Fox News versus Dominion voting systems. It's going to be a Murdoch trial for media reporters.

And then Dominion settled with Fox for $787 million. So where do you think that leaves us? you know, it left me a little hollow. I mean, because I don't want to pretend or make the mistake and making it seem like every news outlet not named Fox is perfect. Everybody has a lot of issues, for sure. But I think what they've done to democracy and what they've done to journalism is so depraved

that I want to see them get their comeuppance. And when Dominion decided to settle, it felt like that wasn't going to happen, even though I know there's more legal issues that Fox News will face. But I kind of, I think what they have done, Newsmax, all those copycats, what they have done to our business and to, you know, again, our democracy is just really disgusting. So to me, they could have never paid enough money. I get why Dominion settled. I wish they hadn't because, and especially because Fox doesn't have to apologize or really, other than writing a very large.

check and I'm not trying to act as if that itself isn't a consequence. But I think the consequences they deserve, they aren't getting. So the outcome of all this is us reading emails and texts from Tucker Carlson and Rupert Murdoch. Did you learn anything new about Fox News? No, because I've always considered them to be a phony, not always, because there was a time where Fox News was actually sort of credible. Like, they hadn't gone this far down their rabbit hole. But, One thing I did learn and I'm not surprised by anything in those sex messages. A very eye-opening moment for me happened. I believe this, I believe this moment happened for me.

A very eye-opening moment for me was in 2016. It was, you know, Obama's last year in office. And Mike and I had got invited to the White House because they have these slew of holiday parties. And, you know, people are all. they are enjoying themselves from different corners of media. There was a lot of Fox people there. And what I found to be hilarious, and to me, it was very much a window into what these people are doing.

They were all in the receiving line to get their picture with President Obama. And the reason they were is because to them, like, what they, they're performing for people. And they have no, like, if you're, like, a straight up for real conservative and you've consistently been that way, I don't have any problem with you. I may not agree with you, but at least you're consistent and at least it's real. These people are literally peddling just this constant diet of nonsense. And it's impacting how people think about the world and about the society that we live in.

And to know that behind closed doors, they don't do any of this. Like all that stuff that they're regurgitating to people on TV, like, it's not real. So they're like, to me, very highly paid actors. and I have no respect for that whatsoever. I was like, oh, that's really interesting. All these Fox News personalities are in this line to shake hands with a man that they tear down on a nightly basis and are feeding their viewers a constant diet of why this man is everything wrong with the world and playing on lazy racial tropes.

And here they are in line trying to shake the hand of Barack Obama like everybody else. Very eye-opening for me. How much have you allowed yourself to plug into the 2024 election? A lot because, you know, I think if you're really anybody in this country, but I think it's especially acute if you're a black woman, a person of color, is that I can't think of an election that I haven't voted in where I didn't feel like my existence was at stake. So I have to stay plugged in. Like, I don't have a choice to, you know, to unplug and to not think about it because there's very serious issues. that are on the table that are impacting how we live. And that means a lot to me.

And I'm not voting necessarily for myself. I'm voting for other people who don't have the platform that I have. Other people who, because of, you know, how our society is set up, there's a lot of people who feel like that they got 25 more important things to worry about when it comes to voting. And so I'm voting for those people. And, you know, so it's our crumbling democracy. is something that I take extremely seriously. So I don't have the option of not caring or being tired or being sick of the politics.

Don't have that option. And I don't think the rest of us do either. What do you make of the week Ron DeSantis's head? Ron DeSantis, the slicker, more intellectual version of Donald Trump. I told people he was worse a long time ago. And people didn't believe me. But, you know, what's happening in Florida, a place that I lived for seven years, a place I enjoyed living for seven years. And to see the things that he's been able to do and put on the table get easily passed has been, I hope people understand that that's a preview.

He's providing a copycat model of what other states can follow that have, you know, Republican-led leadership through and through. The most interesting part to me of like just seeing his entire, say, last six months, not just like recently. But the stuff with Disney, which I thought was one of the most excellent checkmates I've ever. scene. I was like, huh, did he really think he was going to disturb the mouse? Did he actually think that? They're like basically the largest employer in Florida. And it was such a stupid fight to pick because as he often does, he uses his position and authority as governor to politically bully people to retaliate against people. And it's upsetting to me that because of the way the state is gerrymandered, because of the fact that, you know, let's be honest, they get a huge influx of people

who aren't born in Florida. So there are people from other places. And I think that's also part of the reason why the political landscape is what it is. They also is a lot of wealth in Florida. And that mixture of events has allowed him to be in a position to basically destroy a lot of people,

a lot of things that are good about the state. And it just seems to be just an apathy there that I don't understand. But I understand it in the larger context of where we are politically, it's not, what will ultimately, I think, sort of do us in, not to sound very morbid, because I don't necessarily mean in a death way, but ultimately, what will undo our entire democracy is the apathy. That's what we'll do it. It's usually, it's not one big event that happens. It is death by a thousand paper cuts because somebody,

a lot of people aren't watching who's minding this door. And a lot of people not only don't understand how our government works. And I don't mean that in a way to belittle them or demean them, but because they don't understand by the time these things happen, you know, that these laws are put in place, it's too late. The political machine has already worked. So I hope that people don't get overwhelmed by our next political cycle, particularly since it looks like we're going to get a rematch of 2020. And I hope they just stay engaged and informed because there's a lot of things that are truly detrimental to our country at stake now. Last one for you, Jamel. You and I talked on the night

after the 2020 election. So Joe Biden had won, but he hadn't won yet. And you talked a lot about the promises Biden and his campaign had made to black voters who had supported him going way back to the South Carolina primary. So sitting here in 2023, how do you think those promises have been fulfilled? You know, I think, because there's this tendency for people to say, oh, he hasn't done anything for the black community. I'm like infrastructure bill very much will impact the black community.

We now have the first black woman on the Supreme Court, which was a campaign promise that he essentially made. He's trying to get the student loan crisis figured out, but we know that's being blocked in courts. So people, I think, who are on the left side of the aisle or the Democratic side of the aisle, I get why they get so impatient. I understand it because they look at, you know, sort of conservatives. and Republicans, and when they're in power, they wield that power mightily. And they don't really care what people think of them when they do it. And I think there is this level of frustration within the Democratic Party where people feel like they're still attached to a political reality that does not exist. There is no working across the aisle because you can't, it's hard to work with people.

I believe in the spirit of compromise and I understand that's what politics are. The problem is you can't compromise with people who are still saying things like Joe Biden's not the president. Like what's the compromise? Like we don't have any common ground there because a basic fact you purport as a lie. So how are people supposed to work across the aisle when there's a very large, significant contingent of them who think that January 6th was okay. You can't work with that, right? And so I think what I would like to see going forward is that now,

that the Democrats have, whatever power they have, they need to use it in a way that they can correct some of the things that have happened. I had a great conversation with Representative Ayanna Presley about this. And it is true that at this point, I think Democrats are tasked with so much, that's not to say we should feel sorry for them,

but they're not only tasked of moving the country in the more progressive direction. They're also tasked with reducing harm. Now, there are other areas that I would love for, Joe Biden to be more aggressive about police reform and criminal justice reform being at the top of my list. I don't think he's really, he hasn't really done much in that area. I know they had the George Floyd Policing Act. That never really came to fruition when it came to, you know, really shoring up voting rights for people that never, that has gone nowhere. But I need, I think we

need to be very careful in placing the blame of why it hasn't gone anywhere. And when you have the level of opposition that he's facing, it can be tough to get things done. And I'm not, you know, saying that that's the only excuse. But I think especially if he does get a second term, I'd like to see him behave that way. Like, this is my last four years. I have to do something for my legacy that will make this count. And most importantly, we'll improve the quality of lives of the people who've had to overcome voter suppression, overcome a long laundry list of things just to put him there. And I hope that he understands you can't keep asking people to vote harder. You've got to do something else that will get them there and feel like that you really are somebody that they can trust and believe in.

Jamel Hill, thanks for coming on the press box, as always. Thank you. Appreciate you. That is the press box. I'm Brian Curtis. Production Magic. As always by Erica Servantes. Before we go, a few weekend recommendations for you, Sean McRish was on this podcast. recently. He works for New York Magazine, writes about the media a lot. He's got a new piece out about Emma Tucker, who is the editor running the Wall Street Journal. And it's a really interesting piece because it is about Tucker's journey as much as anything through Murdoch world. And if you want a companion story to read as you're thinking about the Fox trial or the Fox Almost trial, highly recommend really, really good story, as always,

from Sean. My other wreck is an oldie but goody. I've been trying to watch old media movies. That is media movies before 1976 in hopes that I can convince Sean Fantasy to come back and do one more power ranking with me because we've got to do the classics. And the one I popped into the DVD machine the other night was a face in the crowd, which features Andy Griffith, and I don't think I'm spoiling anything here, as a radio host. who grows into this Donald Trump slash Glenn Beck slash Tucker Carlson figure. It is often cited as a movie that was able to see into the future. I often think it's a better version of network, mainly because I understand how Andy Griffith became,

or Andy Griffith's character in the movie, Loads of Roads, became this national phenomenon in a way. I don't quite understand how the guy a network did. but it's also just a great movie period. The criterion print of it is magnificent. Anyway, if you're looking for a movie, a face in the crowd, my recommendation this week. All right, read, relax, revise your nut graphs. Let us meet back here Monday for more lukewarm takes about the media.

Have a fantastic weekend.