The Press Box - Jonah Hill on the Personal and Powerful 'Mid90s' | The Big Picture (Ep. 537)

Episode Date: October 18, 2018

Ringer editor-in-chief Sean Fennessey chats with actor and filmmaker Jonah Hill about directing his personal and affecting first film 'Mid90s.' Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelly. One shiny podcast will be touring from Friday November 2nd to Wednesday, November 7th, where Tate, Titus, and Nephew Kyle are traveling to Columbus, Ohio, Louisville, Kentucky, Bloomington, Indiana, and Chicago, Illinois to tip off the college basketball season. You can find links to tickets on the ringers, Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Also, be sure to catch up on all of our NBA previews-pillooza content from Tuesday, where you can find Bill Simmons, Chase Arano, Joe House, and more previewing the start of the NBA season. You can check it all out on YouTube. you close yourself off and try and make the movie you've been dreaming about with ignoring the elements that have come into it, I believe, I've only made one film, but I believe you'd be fucked. I'm Sean Fentasy, editor-in-chief of The Ringer, and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show with some of the biggest movie stars turned filmmakers in the world. I'm 36 years old. The mid-90s are a precious time in my memory. Back then, I was the son of a single mother trying to figure out how to fit in and find

the right thing to say to people who didn't know what to do with me. In other words, I was a teenager. I scheme to get my hands on Wooten Klan CDs. I played Sega Genesis for hours on end. I loitered in public parks until the crack of dawn. In general, I needed to kill time, so I didn't have to deal with the things I didn't like about my life. As it happens, this was a not uncommon experience.

In fact, it's the sort of experience that defines Jonah Hill's first movie as a writer-director. It's called fittingly mid-90s. And in his fusion of Verite style and skater video aesthetic, Hill has made a movie that isn't exactly real, but is undeniably true. It's a huge statement from the actor, a movie about friendship, passion, and growing up. I sat down with Jonah to talk about his movie, where it came from, and where he's going. Here's Jonah Hill. Man, what a great day.

I'm here with Jonah Hill, director Jonah Hill. Jonah, what's up? This is best. I'm really happy to be here with you. We're going to talk about mid-90s. Are you ready? Yeah. I'm genuinely, I want to start off by saying, I love this podcast.

And the way you interviews incredible, but also the curation. of filmmakers that you put on is incredible and the questions you ask. So for me to be on as a filmmaker is truly like a genuinely like wonderful moment for me. So thank you. That's very sweet and I feel very worked over so I'm ready to be a mush with you. Okay, Joe. Just tell me about mid-90s when it first occurred to you as an idea and and why you felt you needed to make it. I grew up skateboarding in L.A. and in the mid-90s. And when I found skateboarding, it changed my life. I say I'm 100% dedication, 14% skill. I was not good. I was never good at skateboarding. But I felt like an outsider. And when I found skateboarding, it was a group of outsiders that had this anti-anything ethics.

So what it did was it gave me a point of view and aesthetic and ethic. So like style, music, the way they dealt with authority, if I show it in the film or try to show it in the film, it's like when you see it, you're either in or you're out. Yeah. And if you're in, it changes your life. So for me, I think even with acting and writing, skateboarding influenced that.

And not because of I was a good skateboarder, but because of the sense of humor of Big Brother, the sense of humor of the videos, of great skate videos. And to me, the way people interact in skate videos, what I wanted in 90s to be was a reverse skate video, which is a skate video is all skating with three second intervals of people connecting and causing mayhem. And I wanted to make the thing that was all people connecting in three seconds of skateboarding.

Yeah, it's a beautiful inversion. And we know about like Spike Jones, for example, obviously worked in skate videos. He knows about that. But then he makes a shift. And he doesn't really make a movie about skating. This is literally a movie about people who live, eat, breathe skating. Right. And at the same time, and I'm not just saying this,

People, you know, skating is the hardest culture to please because it's always butchered in film. This movie was not made from a place of authority. It was made from a place of true gratitude to something that came into my life at a time when I really needed it. Having Spike be there, you know, like in the beginning. So basically what happened was, speaking of Spike, is we were writing a play together and we did it at the Met one night only. It was really cool. When was this? What year?

This was four years ago. Exactly. So from conception or release is almost within a week of four years. Wow. Exactly. Okay. So we're writing a play together and something he and I would do. First of all, let me just say Spike is the best.

Anyone who knows him knows how, not just everyone knows how talented he is, but he's also just an amazing human being. So we were writing a play together and we were loving it. And one of the things we did was we, whatever, the thing that he was writing, which he was writing apart for me. and then I was writing my first film. He and I went to go see Whiplash in New York. And he goes, how old is that guy?

And I was like, oh, like 28 or something. And he's like, it's younger than you. And I was like, yeah. And he's like, better get your shit together, you know? And so I got to think Damien Chazel actually, because that comment stung me so much, I went straight back to my apartment and started writing because I was like, fuck, I want to do this.

Like, I got to do this. You know, I can't just talk to talk. You got to walk the walk, you know. So we're writing to play, and we would tell each other these stories of our screenplays. And that's a really great thing we still do because having to tell the story every day, you find the holes, you find new waves. And it's just telling the story to somebody helps you write it each day. And this started very differently, right?

The shape of this story was really different. So I'm telling him what I'm writing to be my first feature. And the A story was something completely different. And then there would be minimal flashbacks to when the kid was 12 skating with his friends. And Spike said, you seem professionally interested in the A story. And you light up like a Christmas tree when you talk about the kids skating. And I was like, oh. And he was like, yeah, why don't you just do that?

And to me, I was like, do you want to come be a part of it? Like, because you're just a godfather of this culture. And he's like, I don't because of my connection to it. But I know he knows my fanaticism about it. and the way I articulated what was wrong with movies that ever featured skateboarding. And so the biggest mission of this movie

beyond everything else is to do this right. So when we showed skateboarding the film, forget critics. I was like, oh my God, thank God they love the movie. What is like? I was like, because that was like off with his head.

It wasn't like, hey, it's a B or C plus. It's like, we're going to fucking kill this guy if he butchers this. Yeah. you know, and Spike, when he saw, I was like, I don't want to speak for him or say the nice things he said, but he was, the OG's approved, you know, and that is everything. Is there some sort of power counsel of skateboarding? Like, how do you convene all the right people to take a look at it and say, we approve, Jonah? Well, to me, it was a really delicate

mix. You know, movies are made by committee. People don't realize, you know, like Gus screens his movie to get notes from people. Like Gus fans in or Martin Scorsese, they screen their film to get notes. It's films are made by community and filmmakers helping one another. So to me it was a really delicate mix. There were threefold. First and foremost, my love of film. There's three things. So the first one is you make a great movie that you stand behind, at least great in the sense that you'll stand behind it forever. Sure. Right? Nobody else, just you. But the filmmaking, just the filmmaking and storytelling. Two is skateboarding. If you're going to do this, you have to kill, yourself and exhaust yourself to make sure every frame of the movie is showing this correctly

and respectfully and truthfully. So we had Aaron Meza and Mikey Alfred who come from the skateboard world on set like 24 hours a day and I was just an animal about making sure we did this right, you know? And the third thing is I wanted to frame hip hop in the way that it means to me. Movies butcher hip hop to me because they're always showing people bawling or they're showing like super hood shit. And to me, it was the emotional backbone of my childhood and tribe is the Beatles to me. And I wanted to show it emotionally where it stood in my life. So those were the three kind of main like tell the story, respect skating, show hip hop for what it is to you. I have probably 500 questions about rap in the movie. But before we get to that, I do. I hope that. I hope that. I hope that.

that wasn't long-winded. It's just so nice to talk to somebody about the movie. It's exciting. You should be excited about it. Where did the kids come from? Were these people that you knew? Were they amalgamations of people? Because they're very finely drawn. So to me, the big thing was I'm not going to cast actors and turn them into skateboarders or have them play skateboarders. I'm going to cast skateboarders and turn them into actors or bring out the actor in them if they want it. So the first thing you're looking for, you read hundreds of kids, skateboarders. You know, Sunny we found it was the easiest. Mikey Alfred, one of our producers, took me to Stoner Scape Park.

I brought Lucas, okay? Lucas Hedges, who I had written the part for, because my sister did lady, my sister Beanie Feldstein, big shout out to the boss, Beanie. She was in Lady Bird with Lucas. And she goes, she knew what I was writing and always reads my shit. And she was like, Lucas is. insane, you know, and this was before like Manchester by the sea, I think, came out. And I saw his face and I was like, this is him. And the reason I chose Lucas is, you know, if, if, if you're

choosing an abusive older brother or like a really mean older brother and you choose someone who is that, you're fucked because you're doing like, it's like weird science, you know, which is great, but meaning it's like a cartoon mean older brother. Yeah, Lucas has this like sadness this vulnerability. He is the most heartfelt, sensitive, wonderful person. And so he's such a brilliant actor. I'm like, if he could put on the veneer of this abusive, like, fucked up person, but underneath it has a giant heart,

he just doesn't know how to express himself. I was like, that's going to be a win. And Lucas, I'm so grateful to him. Like, he's a real deal super OG actor who's only like 20. And then the kids, so Lucas, Mike and I go to a skate park, Stone or Skate Park, which is a couple blocks away from the courthouse where we're going to shoot. And I see this kid and it's him. It's just like no second thought, no doubt.

And Mikey knew him and he called him over and it was sunny. And he was exactly what I was looking for. He was a person who was really small for his age, but three feet tall in real life and 10 feet tall inside. And that is sunny. And you read it on him? And he just, I go, do you ever think of acting? And he goes, I just finished a movie with Yorgos Lathomos.

And Nicole Kiddleran. And I go, okay, do you want to take a step down? And I called Yorgos Lathemas and he goes, hire him. He's a genius. He is a genius. And he is a fucking genius. That's wild. I didn't realize that you came upon him not knowing he was an actor.

Literally saw him at a skate park. He's a brilliant skateboarder. So crazy. He was such a good actor. He had to pretend to be a bad skateboarder, which is actually really difficult to do. And he's super pissed off because he doesn't get to show off his skills. Yeah, I mean, how does he, how did he pull off being so bad? He's a brilliant actor. So we brought him and he's the first kid we saw. And we, you know, we hired him that day. And he did the scene, a scene between him and Catherine Waterston's character, his mother, where he loses it on her.

And everyone was just quiet. And it was like, it was like someone throwing a no hitter. We're like, let's just not say anything. Is this the scene in the car? Yes. Yeah, yeah. And it's one of my people, you guys haven't seen it and people haven't seen it, but it's a pretty powerful scene in my opinion. And Sonny is a beast.

And it gutted me. And he was the easiest person to direct of everybody. That's crazy. You're like, Sunny. Hey, he's like, don't work, man. I got it. He's 11 at the time. I mean, he's a freak of nature.

So then it was about building it around Sunny. So thankfully, you get your lead first. which is a luck, is all luck, you know, because you're building the movie around this kid. So then choosing Catherine was like, who's a good mix of Sunny and Catherine? I mean, Sunny and Lucas, like who could look like their young mom? And who's an amazing actor? And Catherine Waterston is, you know, everyone in the world knows is an amazing actor. So that was no-brainer.

And she's kind of that right age where she clearly was a very young mom, right? So she's still kind of young and vibrant and beautiful, but also is like living a hard life. She's got two kids. She's trying so hard to give them a better mom each year. And she's often slips. And she's a human being. Yeah. It's like, fuck.

The parents, you know, it's funny watching it as an older person now or, you know, there's kids who watch it and there's adults who watch it. And they're just like, you know, as I was writing it, I was turning 30 when I started. You know, I was thinking about my parents. And it's not based on my mom at all. But kids I knew who had single moms, young single moms growing up, I was thinking of like, my mom was like 28 when I was born. You know, like if I had a kid at 28, I'd be fully figuring it out and fucking up royally all the time. So I wanted to portray that.

Someone who's still going through the like, how do I find a partner? How do I maybe stop getting fucked up as much as I'd like to, you know? And Catherine is just brilliant. So with Sunny set, the rest of the kids, we had to find like just amazing, amazing kids. And we found a kid, a man named Nekyll Smith, who to me, he plays Ray in the film. And you've seen the film. He's the revelation of the movie, yeah. If you see the film, I defy you, I don't care if you don't like it, I don't care if you hate me.

You know, Nickal Smith is, he's one of the best professional skates. had never acted before. And he's like, I don't even know how to say it. I mean, how would you describe it? He feels like a real person, which is, that's how you know he's doing a great job. I mean, he feels like someone that you know when you want to be close to. He's communicating a lot of the pain and the seriousness and the like the things that people in his position are pursuing. But that's part of what I want to know, though, is you find these great kids, how much of the characters are changing after you find the kids? Because like I said, they really feel like very specific, not archetypes, but like real people who fit in this constellation of humanity.

The only writing I had to do based on casting was between when I cast Nekyll and Olin, who plays Ray and fuck shit. Because they know each other in real life. And Nekyll is one of the biggest, you know, he's like one of the coolest, he's for Supreme and fucking awesome. And he's just like Adidas, he has his own like shoes and stuff, right? If we didn't get Nekal, we would have been fucked because. all the kids look up to Nikelle.

So he's the alpha in this group, and this movie is essentially an Animal Kingdom movie. It's about how, like, a young cub maneuvers his way through the animal kingdom. And everyone naturally looks up to Nikell. So it was like, Sunny was more hyped to be around Nikell than me or a movie set. That's his guy he wants to be.

Nekyll's the coolest. So casting him was a dream because he's such a brilliant actor. And the one thing I had to rewrite was when we cast Fushit, which is Owen. He's one of the kind. Because the character wasn't as funny. Honestly, Owens was so funny that you couldn't not. It's like God telling you like, what are you doing?

Like, you know, that's what making movies is. And all the people I respect told me is like, Spike said to me, I knew you were going to make a good movie because we had dinner the week before you started and you were opened. And he's like, that's how I knew. And that's the best thing anyone's ever said to me because if you close yourself off and try and make the movie you've been dreaming, about with ignoring the elements that have come into it, I believe, I've only made one film,

but I believe you'd be fucked. Tell me about the feeling of walking onto the set the first time as a director. I'm curious if your feelings were different because you've been on so many sets as an actor and you know what this is all about, but it's different when you're in that role. I always say to anyone who works in movies, it's not real until you pull up and see the trucks. So at any moment, they can just pull the whole thing away. I've had it happen.

I've seen it happen. millions of times. Until you pull up and see the trucks, no one has spent enough money to make sure you at least have one day of shooting in your room. So to me, the moment I dreamt about always was it wasn't like yelling action,

it wasn't like the first take, it was pulling up and seeing the trucks. And so when I pulled up to the house, which is, you know, the main house in the film, and I saw the trucks, I chilled in my car for like 10 minutes before I went in and just literally some version of crying, but just true gratitude and like shock of just like, wow, this is what I wanted.

And this was, I get it. You know, I'm an actor and everyone. I have this awesome life and everything. But like I'm a nerd. I've wanted a director movie my whole life. I sat in my room for three years writing this thing. And whenever I was angry or sad or emotional or whatever, it was my friend. And then it was like raising a kid.

It was like this thing I just had in my room. there's now people showed up and there's no warmer feeling you could ever have that these people showed up for you and this thing that you dreamt about is now a thing like it's a poster we're sitting in a room right now with a poster of it behind you like mid-90s is like my email like I'm just like dreaming about this it's nothing it's a piece of paper with words on it you know and so that to me was the moment where I was like, what the fuck? It was a dream. What was your set like?

Was there jizzah playing all the time? Were you trying to capture the feeling of being a skater in the 90s? Or was it a little different than that? Everybody I hired. So with great part, I mean, I've been in a 15-year film school, which is I'm the luckiest person in the world because I got a front row education from like all the professors I adore. Yeah, who's Corsese, Tarantino, Coen brothers, Bennett Miller.

You've been with some of the best of the best. and Seth and Evan and Judd and like, like, you know, just whether it's comedy or drama, it's just, or both. It's, uh, it's been a front row seat at like Harvard, you know, and I call them my professors, not directors I worked for, you know, it was learning Gus, Van Zent, Harmony Corinne, you know, it's like insane. So were you the kind of person on set as an actor who was always asking them a lot of questions and trying to figure out all their tricks and the things that they were doing? Yes, I was terribly distrable.

and annoying and still am. Okay. And you know what? You learn from every experience. If you want to, like, if you're listening and you're interested in the film business, I say the same thing everybody. Be a PA. You carry soda around, but anyone can get that job,

and you are 10 feet away from Martin Scorsese directing a film. Anyone can get this job and anyone can see how the sausage is made. And all I wanted to do was talk about movies I love with the people who make. them and understand that it can be done. With enough education, can it be done that you tell a personal story that means something to you? What was the number one thing that you didn't know, you didn't know? The wonderful question. So this is a good one. I've been to movie premieres a ton, luckily, of things I've acted in. Okay. So I figured when this was starting to happen, I would understand the feeling. I'd be okay. You know, like when it's going to

a show for the first time or something, right? So I saw Moneyball. I waited to see Moneyball when it premiered at Toronto. And it was the first time I saw it and it was a highly moving, wonderful experience from my family, my friends were there. So I didn't show the kids. I was waiting to show them at Toronto because I wanted them to have the same experience. I was like, I want to give them this thing that I had where they're in their suits and their parents are there and everything. They can be proud of what they did. Were they bugging you? Are they saying like, When are you going to show us the movie? When are you going to show us the movie?

No, because I told them this. I was like, it's better to wait. Don't watch it by yourself or with two people. You work so hard. The most moving experience in my life is how hard these kids work. They didn't like, they're not playing themselves. They're acting. And they wanted to be great actors.

So I was like, you should get the full experience of like what this is like, you know, where everyone's seeing it for the first time and you are too and you have to go on stage and what that was. And so to me, I was like, oh, I can. get it. I've been in movie premieres. It's okay. I'm 34 years old. I've been doing this since I was 18. Like, I understand the feeling. I cannot describe how new the feeling of showing a film you made is. How so? I have no, I have no, it is completely new to me. Like, there is no comparison to being an actor. You mean the reaction or watching it on the screen? What part of it? What's going through your

nerves, in your head, and your emotions and how vulnerable you are and how, you are. And how excited and nervous and terrified. I mean, Toronto, I don't think I'd remember anything. Not because I was, like, fucked up, but because, like, I was emotionally a wreck. And my sister, like, so awesome. She came with me straight from finishing a movie. And she's like, I'm just the therapist jester this weekend.

And she's the greatest fucking, I'm talking about being all day. But, like, you know, it was the craziest feeling in my life. And Scott Rood and Eli Bush, who are the producers of the film were like, don't cry during the Q&A after. Why?

Because they're like, they're like, it's great, but it's like you have to talk about what you made. Sure. You know, you worked for four years.

Like, you should, you know, proudly talk about what you made. So I was like, I'm not going to cry. I'm not going to cry. All good.

I got it. I got it. And then the movie ends and me and all the kids are rushed backstage. And they all start sobbing. And, And they're like hugging each other and crying.

And I fucking lose it. And I go on stage, they call me out and I'm crying. And like, I'm embarrassed when I watch the videos and stuff. But I get it. Like, I can't describe what this feels like. And I can't describe these kids having, maybe having a future in film because of this experience. And them watching, these kids were skating on the street. And they give, like, powerhouse.

Like, forget me, right? Like, they give sick performances. And they're going to go on to be actors or work in film or something. And that's because of this thing I wrote in my room. And it is fucking emotional and it's crazy. That's interesting, though, that you answer that question, something about sort of after it was over, after you had made it. Like, so does that mean you were just a very confident person on set and you knew what you wanted

and you were really in control the whole time? I mean, not in like, I wouldn't say that because that seems like, Hey man, I got it. Don't worry. Not in an arrogant way, but that's the one thing that it does help is because you've just, I've been on movie sets since I was 18. So like the first day you're like, this is crazy. But I also understand the rhythm of a movie from being an actor because you,

the movie takes a day or two to find itself. And like once it finds itself, the director's job is keeping the tone the same, in my opinion. And I've seen people not be able to maintain a tone. So once the vibe was set, it was like when all those family scenes you could hear pin drop like people weren't talking

and joking around and then when the kids were together it was like your smile is attached to your ears like you know it's like it was just the vibe there were skaters everywhere they were skating and I took their phones

um it was a big part of the movie was the only reason I said it in the 90s is because we didn't have phones so we actually had to talk to each other So now if there's a moment of connection or a moment of vulnerability, you pick up your phone and go on Instagram. You don't have to deal with it.

And I think, you know, I'm not, I'm not, I'm going to be some old person on your podcast being like, damn, fucking technology's ruining life. Or like the same age, it's the same problem. Yeah, and as a storyteller, I just was like, I had emotional conversations with people because we were bored. Yeah, and you get to the bottom of shit doing that. You're after two hours of sitting around,

you don't have shit to do, but kind of open up. Yeah. Yeah, that's what's up. It was fun with no phones. And I didn't use my phone. I would give my phone, someone would hide my phone for a while. And we'd talk. Tell me about the music.

I think that there's going to be a lot of people that have a similar experience to me. I wasn't a skater, but I was a kid who was otherwise interested in everything that's happening in the movie. And the music is, I mean this sincerely, like, pitch perfect. It is the row of CDs that we see in Lucas Hedges' room. is the row of CDs in my room. There's an authenticity to that. That means so much to me, man.

So how do you go about, like, picking, well, this is the right record for this time? And how long was your long list? You know, I'm very curious about that. That's what those three years are for. Yeah, whittling down. Are you putting songs in the script? I wanted to know that specifically.

I don't write them in the script because it's like a faux pop. Yeah, they say don't do that. Yeah. So it's like amongst writers. It's like, it's very first screenplay. But in your head, if you're the filmmaker, you know.

And I gave everyone an iPod with every song that is in the movie in order because every song was written to the scene. Okay. And we didn't have a crazy fat music budget. I wrote letters to everybody. And, you know, like, I wrote Morrissey a letter. And he gave us the song. I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like,

good luck. Can't wait to see mid-90s. Morrissey. And I'm like, I'm like, Morrissey just said mid-90s. Like, Morrissey knows what this thing in my room is, you know? And, like, music is a huge part of my life. As much as film is, you know, I am not a musician in any way. Again, I am just, you know, a large part of wanting to be a filmmaker for me

is having music be presented the way that I associate it with. So there might be songs or music that you associate with certain things that they match the feeling or experience in your life. and people I think can feel when that is true. We were just having a conversation. Does that make sense? It does in my office about the movie Days and Confused. And that led to a conversation about American Graffiti.

And there's this 20-year thing where you get a movie in the 70s about the 50s, you get a movie in the 90s about the 70s, and now you have your movie, which is about the 90s in the 2010s. There's something kind of beautiful about that. You don't miss a beat, but that's really a nice thing to have if you're a part of my generation. Like when I saw Days and Confused, I was like, damn, I guess this is what the 70s are. were like. I think people will walk away feeling like this is what the mid-90s were like. Is that, and that's also, that authenticity kind of cuts through all the way. It cuts through into all the language that the kids are using, which I think is going to be controversial for

some people, but it's very much how people talk. I'd love to talk about that too. Yeah, let's talk about it. So we'll do the first one first. Okay. I feel like you're just the best, man. I could like talk to you all day. But it, the name itself mid-90s was a joke originally because if you think of American graffiti or dazed and confused, they're great names for films about those time periods. And I was of course very aware that things come in 20 years cycles, right? So right now fashion is like going into like the early 2000s, right? So mid-90s was a joke. It was a misdirect because it was like that 90s movie, like those movies wouldn't be called, like Stasing and Fuse wouldn't be called that 70s film. Like back when you first started writing

it, it was a joke? It was just a placeholder because it was almost as like a bit because it's ironic because the movie, I love the nostalgia in the movie, but it's not like, To me, no nostalgia porn and no skate porn were the rules of the movie. We just ended up not changing the title. It's a great. Everyone loved the title. I was like, great. Okay, we'll keep it.

But to me, yeah, it was a joke because it was like, people were expecting, wow, it's going to be just like that 90s movie. And then they get this kind of small, emotional, hopefully, you know, moving film. I like that it takes big beats, though, from the 90s. Like, there is a Nirvana song. And it's used very elegantly. But it is like, that is a 90s moment, you know? And there have not been a lot of movies that have used Nirvana songs and use them to that effect. To me, it was really important to use that song in particular, which is where did you sleep last night from the live and plugged album?

Because that was the first song I learned on guitar. Oh, wow. I was like, if I'm going to use Nirvana, I'm going to use something from unplugged. And then I was like, this has this deep emotional connection to me because it was the first song I learned on the guitar. So to me, what I learned through making this film is the more you associate everything with true emotions. and there's a real connection, I believe the audience can feel it, even if it's not their experience.

So then that's a segue into the language question. I'm curious about that and that choice to say, like, this is how people talked. They said words that we don't say anymore in this society. The way that the kids talk, the way that they treat women, there's two versions of going at this. There is the one where you course correct

and you change it to how the rules have changed now, or you show it as blunt and as fucked up as it was to tell the truth to illuminate how fucked up it is, especially with the language and especially of heterosexuality, like sexuality between boys and girls. Because right away, Scott Rudin is our producer who is gay and he was like, I was like, should I write a scene where they're watching something and someone says something homophobic and they have a conversation about, he goes, no. You know, he's like, that's the point.

It's ugly. And as far as sexuality, I think my generation of young men learned fucked up lessons that are now coming to life. Yeah. And we're all working to unlearn them. And to me, you know, this young boy has a sexual experience. And it is, he's terrified. And there's nothing that he really wants from it except he knows. it's currency to raise up in the group.

You know, sexual achievements are currencies. They're, like, beating a level in a video game in the 90s at that age. The scene that it reminded me of after he has this experience and talks to his friends about it is when Henry and Goodfellas gets out of the joint and they're all waiting for him and they're like, you lost your cherry. You're all hugging. You popped a chair when he gets out of court. Yeah.

Yeah, it's a very similar vibe to that. Well, to me, he's shook. He's proud of himself. He's confused. But right away, this is a savvy kid. He understands the chest moves to raise up in the animal kingdom. And right away, he knows, wow, that alpha is going to be proud of me for doing something that he praises. Currency.

You know, and that's a fucked up lesson. It's a bad lesson. So let's watch it as blunt as it is. And hopefully that says what it's supposed to say, you know. And I think some people really missing, you know, my, you know, people really misinterpret it or really at least don't agree with my intention but I stand by

because I think telling the truth is far more powerful than course correcting that's something that wouldn't have happened. You were talking about the reception and the experience of people seeing it at Toronto but I'm wondering how you feel about the way that it will be received at large.

Are you worried about reviews? Are you worried about how many people will go see the movie? Anyone who says they're not as a liar. The Buddhist answer like Like what I'd like to be is a Zen master. I'd like to be not neurotic. I'd like to be a lot of, you know, I want to say, I like to be myself because that's a, you want to be yourself.

There are things we are all working on, right? Anyone says they're not thinking about hopefully people review it well or see it. Like, come on. I mean, I worked on it for four years. I don't want people to be mean to it. It's like, I'm sensitive. Is that something that is also true of performances you've given? No.

that's why I have this real disassociation with acting because ultimately I'm not in charge of how it turns out. If I know I did my best, I'm one color in a painting and I was the best green I could be. And if the painter fucking paints over it in purple, that's their, that's their shit, not mine, you know? So to me, this falls on me. These kids trusted me. You know, Scott trusted me, A24 trusted me, Lucas Hedges and Catherine Waterston trusted me. Morris, he trusted me. You know, like, I'm asking people to show up.

So, of course, I'm sensitive. And this movie's my heart. I'm sensitive. I took the internet off my phone. I'm trying to do things that are healthier with not, like, being, because I am. I'm obsessive. Harmony Corinne had the best thing. He goes, directing his long-term obsession.

And I love that. And I love Harmony, by the way. But he's the best. But it's true. So most directors are very obsessive people because you have to, be obsessed and in love with something for like four years and then say goodbye you know so fuck yes i hope people like it man of course you got to get morrissey trusted me tattooed on your body somewhere that's a very i almost got a morsey tattoo i really did i really came close and also

i want to say it's like i'm just telling you the truth you know like the cool answer is like hey man you know whatever it's like but at the end of the day truly i stand by the film which is all that matters and truly all that matters is hopefully I get to do another one. Sure. But how could you not be invested in some way? If someone was mean to your thing, I'd feel bad for Sunny. I'd feel bad for Nikell. I'd just feel bad.

I feel like no matter what happens with the movie, those guys are going to be fine. Like you said, they're going to be able to work because they jump off the screen. That's awesome. Do you, have you done the thing where you've already started thinking about or writing or working on the next project because the first one isn't out yet? So you're trying to get it done beforehand. You know that whole canard? It's not because of like, I'm writing the next movie with the same crew of people like Scott and Eli and A24.

I'm only writing it because I love it. There's no other reason because when I think of when I'm the happiest in life, it's when I've been in this process of mid-90s. So it's like when I'm editing or when I'm writing or I call it quiet creativity. On set is chaos because I'm. it's like so much like money and moving parts and other people. But writing and editing are so beautiful because it's like low stakes creativity. It's like you can take a massive swing and fall on your face and it's okay. But you told me earlier in terms of editing that you had to take a break on this one

because you had to go do something else for Maniac and then you had to come back to it. Maybe you can tell me a little bit about like what happened in that time. It was super simple because it was weird actually. But Maniac, I started a week. after we rap mid-90s. So playing an exhausted, depressive character was a natural state, even though challenging I was there. And poor Emma and Carrie.

But, you know, I did it because I wanted to do this thing with Emma and Carrie. And so what it gave me was pretty much like a six-month break in between rap and edit. in post. And that is very untraditional. Usually a week, three days later, most directors are just dying to get in the editing room. Did you have a strict demarcation? Did you not even look at footage at time when you were performing? I would watch assemblies. I would watch it and slowly digest it. Okay. And I view it as a real luxury because I got perspective. What an amazing gift. And when I write, the reason why it took me three years is because I would write a draft. Scott and Eli would give me notes. and then I'd maybe chill.

I'd let it ruminate. And then you can come in and be icy and savage about the things that are they good? Are you connected to them because they're yours? So I came back into the movie with my editor, Nick Hui, who's brilliant, who did Lady Bird and Night of. Shout out to Nick. I love him. And I was able to be icy about things that were like super emotional to me but didn't belong in the movie. Because right after I would have been.

And like, oh, remember that night? And Sonny killed it. And he was so, uh, and this reminds me of this feeling I had in my room. And, but now you're like, fuck it. You're Dexter. You're like, you're Charles Manson, man. You're like, you know, kill your babies. Like, and so that perspective, I think, is really valuable.

Time is a luxury, you know. The movie's very economical. And I'm wondering if there's like a two or two and a half hour cut that you just didn't want to part with, but had to, had to whittle down. Yeah. The first assembly was two, 45. Yeah. And one of the things I love the most is the running time with credits is 84 minutes. It's a gift.

And I was like, I want it to be a fast punch to the heart and get the fuck out of there. Yeah. You know, and like there is a version of this movie that's like two hours long, but I don't think it's nearly as it's not as good, you know. It hits like a shot for sure. It works really well. I know that there's all kinds of influence on the movie. Just from watching it, you talked about harmony a little bit. A lot of people are noting Larry Clark.

kids and movies like that. I'd love to talk about kids. Yeah, let's go. I mean, kids also, I think for guys like us, it's like, no, no, no. I mean, I'm trying to get to the bottom of like, how much are you actually trying to put the influence inside of something versus this is just something I think about once in a while and it inevitably melds into the work that I'm doing. Okay, so let's start with kids.

Okay. I fucking love kids. Me too. When I was a kid, my parents were very encouraging of me being an artist. They were wonderful in that way. And whether it was responsible or not, we'll see how life turns out. You're doing okay so far. They let me watch anything I want, essentially.

Like, they were just whatever. My brother was six years older than me and loved rap and movies and gave me so much in that way. And they were cool. And they said, there's two movies you can't see. And I go, what are they? And they go, kids, which had just come out on video and a clockwork orange. of course I walked away and being of

the ethic I invited to the first thing I wanted to do was figure out how to see these films ASAP. That's the don't think of a white elephant problem, you know? Yeah, of course. Like my parents took me to see Pulp Fiction in the theater when I was nine. Wow. I was watching like a heroin needle

being stabbed into Uma Thurman and I'm nine and they're like, this is cool. But for some reason and so the first thing I do is a friend of mine had a copy of kids. I watched it. It changed my life. It was the most aggressive, raw acting, filmmaking I had ever seen up to that point in my life. And I was too young to understand the AIDS plot. So it wasn't like disturbing to me at that time. I literally was like, these guys are cool. Right. So you watch it when you're a kid and you're like,

these guys are the best. And then you watch it as an adult and you're terrified by it. So the other was clockwork orange. I went to my friend house who had it, watched it, went home as a zombie and went into my parents room and said, you were absolutely right. I saw a clockwork orange and I'm like kind of breaking down right now. I was like, I need some, I need to talk. And they like talked me through the ultraviolence and like, like I get it. I was like, I get why you didn't want me to see this. And now I'm fucked up from it. So thank you. And help me. And so kids, this movie was made with such loving consideration of kids, but with such awareness of kids. Kids is beautiful and it's nihilism. And my experience growing up, and what this film I wanted to represent was, this film is about connection and, like, finding your friends at a time when you need them, finding a community when you need it.

It wasn't like, it was fucked the world in some things, but most of it was like, wow, I can't believe I'm a part of something. I can't believe I have these people in my life. and that's not what kids is about. Kids is beautiful and it's like the world's ending tomorrow, fuck everything. Yeah, it's on fire. Yeah, it's an apocalypse. But they're opposites.

Like, Harmony is like they should play them together, you know, because, but when people see the trailer, they're like, fucking kids rip off. Fucking fuck you, dude. And I'm like, I get it. Like, kids is fucking brilliant. Tell me about balancing tone. Movie's funny.

It's violent. It's complicated. It's a very emotional. raw at times. It's kind of a difficult thing. Filmmakers that I've talked to have said that it's hard to kind of move from scene to scene when you're going in these really stratified directions. What was that like for you to try to balance all of those things? That's a great question. This is my first film, obviously. And I think any filmmaker that I've noticed that I've worked with or appreciated from afar, it's like you can be not the craziest

lens work or camera work or whatever, but it's like, do you have a voice? Do you have a style? Do you have something that you do that no one else does? And for me, I was like, you know, I'm not like Stanley Kubrick. Yeah, this is my first film, you know, but what I felt I had to offer as a filmmaker was the ability to make you feel multiple feelings very quickly and harshly and aggressively. And that's how I feel life is. and I felt that was like the great goal of this movie was like

what I can maybe do that maybe in my, that's my voice is really make things feel real and really have you laughing one second and wanting to like cry the next second and that's what I went for. So this movie has been compared a lot in some respects to the movie that your sister was in last year, Lady Bird. Yeah, someone called it Skatey Bird.

That's good. So last, last night, what I was watching it, the only times it really reminded me of it is largely in the editing and the tone stuff. Because it's the same editor. I didn't know that when I was watching it, but there's like a hard cut action that happens a lot of time. There's this like snap moment, a few moments in the movie. I don't want to give anything away. And I was wondering what it's like to be compared to something so recent because it's different than being like, oh, kids and the legacy of kids. But, you know, Lady Bird so recently happened. And you're also pretty emotionally

connected to it because of your sister. I should be so lucky that people compare it to it to Doesn't bother you at all. No. Also, no one's seen it. I just mean critics and people on Twitter. But it's hysterical. Like people that haven't seen it are like, oh, it's kids and Lady Bird. It's like, okay, I'm going to say this.

First and foremost, I should be so lucky to be compared to Lady Bird. Greta and I are great friends. And she was in the Scott Ruden A-24. Nick went from editing Lady Bird to starting our film. So, like, I was like, she's a year ahead of me in the Scott Rooden A-24 class of filmmakers. So I would constantly call her and be like, what was this like when I was having a, you know, this feeling I don't understand. What was it like? She'd help me.

She's the best. Even as this was going to Toronto and premiering, I called Greta and I'm like, how did you deal with the anxiety and blah, blah? And she's just the shit. She's the best, you know? And I'm so proud of her. Last year I saw Lady Bird at the New York Film Festival. I go to see my sister and so proud of her. It's the biggest night of her.

She's like beaming. And I live in New York. I'm standing as at Lincoln Center. And there's this big banner of Greta, and it's like Greta Gerwig, like new filmmaker at New York Film Festival. And in not a jealous way and not a hater way, I was like, damn, Greta did it. Like, she did it. I remember when we were like 23 being in auditions together as young actors and she wanted to be a filmmaker. And now she's at the New York Film Festival.

And I was like, man, could you fucking imagine, if I had a genie and you gave me one wish, it would be that mid, this happens for mid-90s. Where are you going to be on Sunday? Sunday we are the surprise screening, which is like a rare thing that they don't do. It's very exciting at the New York Film Festival. And so, fuck it. Like, I'm a blessed guy. And, like, I could see why anyone would be like, fuck that guy. But, like, I don't feel like that was handed to me.

I really feel like I put in four years in my life to tell the truth and make something special. So in regards to Lady Bird, it's Scott Rudin, Eli Bush. It's A-24. It's a year after. and it's the same editor, okay? But it's not this, it's not a similar film at all. They're different. But let me tell you about life.

Let me say about my life. I came out in like comedy. The wisest thing anyone ever said to me is true confidence is living in uncertainty. And all we are searching for is certainty because it makes us feel safe. If you're in a relationship, you want this person is going to be with me forever,

we're going to be in love forever, or at least me as a Jew, this is how I feel like anxiety was. You know, if you're a love, like, I'm going on a plane. I want to be certain that the plane is going to land and I'm safe. But life is uncertain. You can't control anything. So when someone comes out, let's get me in my life. I come out in a comedy. I fucking love Superbad. It was 23 making like the ground. But to me, it's like the citizen cane for 23-year-olds, you know? And then I'm like, wow, okay, so that's

one part of me, you know, and now I'm going to explore all the other parts of me. And people are like, wait a minute. The certainty we have is you as this like foul-mouthed chubby comedian kid, right? I was just like, I'm not going out like that. I am going to really do the things I want to do in my work. And that's been the fight of my career. And whether it's from like comedy actor to serious actor, that was a massive mountain. Or actor to director is a massive mountain, which I'm,

in the middle of climbing, you know? But people want certainty. So when they see mid-90s trailer, the way they feel certainty is, they go, oh, it's like kids and Lady Bird. Because they feel they have the certainty they need to understand it. But what is great about art is once you see it,

hopefully it's its own thing, you know? But I get it, I do it too. Who doesn't do it? I want certainty. I totally understand. No, I mean, I'm trying to ask questions that and people have declarative statements, But the truth is, like, there's not, there are no declarative statements, you know, it's all.

No one knows anything ever. So two weeks ago, Ethan Hawk was here. And he wasn't actually in this room or in New York. But he was doing this show. And I asked him, does he ultimately see himself more as an actor for the rest of his life or a director for the rest of his life? I'll put that question. What did he say? He said actor.

He was like, in my bones, I am an actor. I'm a performer. And it sounds like you've been kind of working up to this moment your whole life. So how do you define it? You don't have to choose per se, but how do you define it? I literally don't define it. My goal and my ambition, you know, I could have gone so many different ways in my career that would have been safe or obvious.

Whatever my heart needs to make, I hope to be fortunate to get to make it. That's great. Last question, Jonah. You ready? So ready. Okay. I also like so caffeinated. I hope I didn't just like talk everybody's head off to death. No, you did beautifully. Every week on this show, we ask filmmakers, what's the last great thing they've seen? Now that you are a filmmaker, what is the last great thing that you have seen, Jonah? I'm going to say eighth grade. We're in the offices of A-24 right now. We're in the office of A-24. And I love Bo Burnham. He's another person who is Scott Ruden in A-24 that I was talking to. And they go, oh, it's like eighth grade. You should see eighth grade. It's the same thing. It's like, But you know what?

There's a young generation of filmmakers. Bo's a young guy who wrote this story and told it beautifully and got this beautiful performance. And I support anyone making interesting films that mean something to them. And so I not only like Bo a lot and think he's so bright and talented, when I walked out of the theater, I was like, thank God there's other people who are going for this. It's good for everybody when there's a good movie like this that works. When A24 is a movie that works, everyone who wants to make films should be happy because they're fighting the fight, and it's not like a political fight, like, hey, they're so brave. But it's hard out there to make movies that aren't like superhero movies and franchises.

And I applaud anyone who's trying to do that. And I thought Bo killed it. I think people will say the same about Mid-90s, Jonah. Thanks for doing this. Thank you. I gotta say like no bullshit. You're just such a, like, lovely, smart person. And I'm sorry if I talked your head off.

Thank you, Joan. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks so much for listening to this week's episode of The Big Picture. If you want more conversations with filmmakers, head on over to the Bill Simmons podcast. I join Bill to talk to Damien Chazelle, the director of First Man,

really wonderful film about the astronaut Neil Armstrong and his inert taciturn life. And also, if you want to read about movies, we have been writing about independent movies all week on The Ringer. Earlier this week, I wrote about the movie Thunder Road and spent some time with Jim Cummings, the writer-director of one of the most interesting,

thoughtful, compelling indie movies so far this year. Thanks again for listening.