The Press Box - Mirin Fader on 'Giannis: The Improbable Rise of an NBA MVP'

Episode Date: July 20, 2021

David Shoemaker is joined by Ringer writer Mirin Fader to discuss her new book, 'Giannis: The Improbable Rise of an NBA MVP.' They talk about the process of converting her original feature story into a book, how Giannis’s free agency affected the timeline, and what it's like publishing a book in real time as Giannis is currently in the NBA Finals.  Host: David Shoemaker Guest: Mirin Fader Associate Producer: Erika Cervantes Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Bacari Sellers podcast tackles the most pressing current events through conversations and interviews with high-profile guests. Building upon his experience in South Carolina government and politics and his experience as a lawyer, Sellers will talk to his guests about all topics from the world of politics. Check out the Bacari Sellers podcast on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to a very special edition of the press box. This is your special NBA Finals or almost over edition of the press box. While Brian Curtis is out talking to Bill Walton, I had the special honor of sitting down with the ringer's own Mirren Fader,

who's the author of a brand new book called Janus, The Improbable Rise of an NBA MVP. This is a really great conversation. I hope you guys enjoy it. Mirren Fader, welcome to the press box. Thank you so much for coming on. This is so cool. I'm so happy to be here.

You know, I worked in the world of book publishing for a long time, and there's one word that you very seldom hear, bizarre as it may sound, and that's serendipity. usually great book proposals fall off in the opposite direction. They never get turned in or whatever they were hooked on. Doesn't happen. A lot of things can go wrong in the process of publishing a book. It is exceptionally rare for a book to just come out at exactly the right moment.

I feel like there's all kinds of jinksing that's coming out of everything that I'm saying right now. But you wrote the book on Janus at not just the moment that he's going to the final. but like at the moment that he is like transmogrifying into an all-time great. How did you plan this? I know. It's just crazy. Everyone's like, all right, she's got to have some kind of clairvoyant powers. I'm like, absolutely not.

I got extremely lucky. We planned this to come out because we didn't know if he was going to stay in Milwaukee or not. So we thought the peg would be free agency, which would have been the peg had he not obviously decided to stay and announce that last December. So I never anticipated a finals run. In fact, so much of the book tracks how hard Milwaukee has had it as a city trying to just break through the first round. So this is a completely unexpected boom. Well, that's really cool.

So this book has been, this started, correct me if I'm wrong, with a BR magazine article, how long ago did you write that? Yeah, that was summer 2019. So your original hook was gone. You went through the whole roller coaster of not knowing why you were publishing your book. book and wow, that's almost losing your hook and all that stuff. This came out. I mean, this is originally started or was born out of a BR magazine article that came out a couple of years ago. What was the process of converting that feature story into a book? Obviously, there's a lot more words, but was there, how did you game plan it? Let's say in sports terms. Yeah. So I had been looking to do a book

and I had talked with a couple literary agents and nothing quite worked as far as the ideas that I had. But one literary agent, who is my agent now, Anthony Matero, was just very kind and was like, my doors open in case you have any ideas. So the Yonis story comes out and I was like, what do you think about this? Because as you know, for a book to sell, it has to be both a really good story, like in terms of the content and also a sellable, marketable stories. So I thought Yonis definitely has both. So I just reached out to Alex, the youngest brother, whom the profile largely focused on. I was like, what do you think about this? And he was like, he directed me towards the agents.

So I had a couple correspondences with them initially, but I kind of wasn't sure, you know, how it worked. Like, do you do the proposal first? And then you talk again, you know, so there was no book that existed. I had to do the proposal first. So that's what I did first. So I turned it in December 2019. and then it shopped around early January, February 2020. I signed the deal mid-March 2020.

And I actually flew to Milwaukee right before the world shut down to interview the brothers again. And so, yeah, I was really thankful for that because literally the rest of the reporting had to be from my apartment. And basically the last thing I forgot to mention is that usually books, you get two years. I got one year because of this whole free agency thing. So literally March 2020 to March 1st, 2021 is what I had to do the book.

I was going to say that's an incredibly short turnaround time for a book. Although, you know, I guess you just don't have any time to mess around, right? You just have to get right in and do the whole thing. And, you know, it's still really impressive. It's really impressive. How do you know where to go? You're talking to the brothers, I guess, right? Are they the ones that give you the roadmen?

map for how to cover Janice's life? You know, sort of in the sense that I had talked with them extensively, and I also interviewed Janice and I interviewed his mom for the piece that we just talked about. And so I had all of this information left on the cutting room floor. And so I sort of had an outline. I knew like one person, and then I asked that person who are some other childhood friends. And what about this coach and that coach? And, you know, every person you talk to, you ask them, you know, can you introduce me to the next

couple of people. And so really like the hardest thing is that because so much is unknown about Janus's story, there's not, you can't like Google it and be like Janus's childhood friends because it just it doesn't exist yet. So for me, it was exciting to kind of be doing uncharted territory and having to vet sources and, you know, oh, can you show me pictures of you guys as kids? And so it was kind of just like old school reporting, you know, and even though I couldn't be there in person, which was unfortunate. Like I wanted to go to Greece and I was going to. Sometimes you just have to make it work. This is my first book. I love reporting and writing and you have to make the reader think that you're in Sepolia where he grew up, what it smelled like, what it looked like. And that just comes from

digging. I woke up every day. I would start interviewing at 6 a.m. my time in Los Angeles to people in Greece and 221 interviews later made it work. Wow. So you just talked about how you had to sort of write a story that not many people knew. For an NBA star, that's really rare. I guess for a lot of foreign-born NBA stars, there's a certain mythology that builds up around them, or at least the few stories that we're here during the draft become sort of more meaningful or more weighty than they were over time. What did you find out when researching? I mean, we knew really very, very little about Janus when he came into the NBA.

But what did you find that surprised you based on what you'd known before? And what do you think that most even hardcore NBA fans would find most surprising about what you learned? Yeah, I mean, I think the first thing that came to my mind was a lot of the racism that he experienced. I think because Janice's story is so improbable and so amazing, it's just been framed as this really, like, feel good story. Like all these people helped him, which is true. so many people, so many white Greeks did help him. But there were also so many people that did not wish him well, that did not treat him well. They would shout racist insults from the stands during games. And I also went really, really deep on learning about how much the Greek government

dragged its feet on granting him citizenship. I interviewed the prime minister of Greece from the time. And just to see the way he avoided the question and basically confirmed what I knew, which was from my reporting, which I found out, is that really the only reason, reason he got citizenship is because he was going to be an American basketball player. And so I think people don't know any of those things. We only really know the broad outline of Janice's life, sold trinkets on the street, transforms into a global superstar, but nothing in between. I think finally the thing that really surprised me that I learned most was how quickly and how how certain Janus almost was to quit the NBA and go home to Greece, his rookie year.

He was extremely lonely. Yeah, that was one of the biggest reveals that I found out. And Alex, the youngest brother, was telling me about it, which is everyone in America was so enamored with Janus that rookie year. He was trying smoothies. And he just looked like he was having the best time ever. Everyone was falling in love with him. He was giggling all the time. But inside, he was so deeply lonely and he just told his family and his agents like, look, if you guys can't come over here, I'm going home.

And I just think like, what if they didn't get the proper visas to come to America? You know, they had gotten denied twice, I learned through my reporting. It was very, very hard. It went all the way up to, it's rumored, you know, Secretary of State at the time. I talked with a couple, you know, government officials and it's literally very, very hard to get them over here. So I think that people don't really realize the depths of Janus' loneliness when he came here. Yeah, that's really interesting. I mean, you talk, I've seen you talk elsewhere about the difference between his sort of mental and physical gifts, right?

That a lot of people look at Janus and watch him play, watch him play for years and just think of him as a physical freak, which of course he is. But talk a little bit about his sort of, well, mental freakiness and what allowed him to get through those first years, but also what's, what we're seeing right now in the playoffs that are that that you know is part of that yeah so um i think this happens to a lot of black players in the nb a i is they are so overly celebrated for their physical gifts that people don't talk about their IQ um and yannis is such a smart player so number one he has this black notebook that he's been carrying around since 2014 to 15 season he writes down every single thing he learns whether it's something as small as where to put your foot on a pivot or an angle. He writes it down. He learns by writing. He is somebody that learned

concepts of basketball, not in English being his first language. He really, his English was not great when he first got here and he had to study and learn. And so he's a very, very good listener. He's a very quick listener. And he's extremely intelligent. You would see glimpses of that IQ on the court, the passes that he makes his court vision. And so you see all. of those things today in the playoffs, you know, he's long been hounded by this idea of he doesn't play with, quote, skill, you know, the hardened comments. But to do the kinds of things he does require so much, not just skill, but mental acuity. And I think Janus is a rare athlete that just defies all of our conventions. And I just wish more people would give him credit for the mental

gifts, the way he pushes through. If you notice he always looks gassed, he just always looks tired because he is giving every ounce that he has in his body. And so it's the mental fortitude that allows him to push forward. That's really, that's really well put. What do you think, a little bit behind the curtain, I guess. But what is your, as close as you are to some of the people in his family, obviously, but as close as you were to this book, more particular, How is the how is have these playoffs been for you watching not just the ups and downs of the bucks team and of yannis specifically but of the perception of yannis right i mean it just people people have personified him over the past month or so more than you know in different ways more

than probably the rest of his career combined agreed i think it just shows how quickly the narrative changes it was only two weeks ago i think if my covid time warps sense is correct that that people were slandering him across the face of the internet saying he's not in his bag and he has no game. And just, I mean, I have never seen that much Janus slander to then, wow, he is one of the greats now. He's solidifying his place. But I think a deeper thing is happening. People are finally seeing what Milwaukee fans have known this entire time, that Janus is a deeply compelling, charismatic, interesting, smart, thoughtful. person and they're falling in love with his quotes and his personality off the court.

And some people are being introduced to him for the first time. So even if he doesn't win the championship, even if he doesn't come through in these last couple of games, people are falling in love with him. And I think, you know, I'm surprised that the NBA hasn't done more to showcase his story and his personality. And I don't know if that's because he's international. But look at Luca. We don't really know anything about Luca. Do we? I don't. I've read one profile of him.

These people don't really give a whole lot of access. And so we don't know. But I think what these playoffs are showing with Janus, and I hope people see this with Luca, is that there is a hunger to know more. There's a hunger for storytelling. There's a hunger to learn about the human side off the court. Well, you're right about Luca.

And as a Dallas Mavericks fan, I can say that with confidence because I've read I think every word that's been published on the guy. But I mean part of that certainly has to do with the way that, you know, media and players interact in 2020

in 2021 that's different than the way they would have done in generations past, right? You talk about going to Janus's brothers, I mean, dealing, having to deal with his, you know, the people around him you know, and we go, you go to teams, right for access for certain stories and stuff.

But do you think that has to do with the sort of just empowerment of the players to not, to sort of have ownership of their own stories? Is that part of it? To be honest, I really don't think it has to do with the players. Sure, I think there's a threat of that, which is why you see players starting their own media companies.

But what I've learned is that the handlers and the PR people and the agents don't even ask the player. If they want to do it, they just turn it down. and because when I go into locker rooms and I approach these players, they're like, yeah, sure, no problem. All good. But if you go through the team to PR,

they're like, no, I don't think so. I mean, you know, this book is essentially a love letter to the city of Milwaukee and Bucks and the franchise. And the Bucks told me, I'm not helping you with this book. And so I got so many Buc staffers

on my own through my own connections, but the Bucks were like, we're not helping you. So I just think if you're a reporter coming up today, unfortunately, a lot of this, you've got to hustle and get on your own because a lot of these other people who are handling the marketing and the media for the players have their own concerns and their own agendas. And so it's really up to you. And like I mentioned earlier, you know,

you have an assignment to do, you have to do it, whether it's a pandemic, whether it's one year to do it, whether it's whatever, you know. We're used to being scrappy as reporters. I think that's just one of the biggest things that I've learned that I have to rely on. as long as we're giving advice to reporters now and in the future, when it comes to a subject as big and as high profile as Janus, how do you, well, let's use the sports metaphor. How do you box out? How do you claim the lane, right?

Like, how do you, or at least how do you proceed with confidence that your book is going to be the one that matters when there could be others out there? I don't know if I approach it that mine is going to be the one that matters or mine is going to be the best or whatever. I never think like that. And anyone I idolize has never thought, wow, and I'm so good at writing. Like, all of us are, we run. I'm not going to say the word scared, but if you know what I mean by run scared, meaning we work and we work and we work and we grind and we grind because we are afraid of not performing to the best of our abilities and what we want. And that's how I operate.

So boxing out is so much of my mentality. You know, it's flying to Milwaukee before I signed a book, deal because I was nervous and because I wanted to do a great job. I get in the locker room, you know, Bucks PR are like, oh, people don't really talk pregame. And I'm like, okay. And then I just go up to Phanasis, hey, can I ask you a couple of questions? And he says, sure. So it's, it's just not being afraid to go for it and seeing what happens when you go for it. And I think people appreciate when you show that you care about the subject. So a lot of the interviews I did were people that, you know, English was their second language. Greek is their first language. And so, you know, but I spent two hours with them. And they, they realized that I actually cared to learn

about Janus as a person and was asking questions, like, tell me about the joy he had with his brothers. Tell me about the happy moments. And I think they appreciate a reporter that comes with just a broader set of questions because there are a lot of people would say, tell me about the worst moment of his life. Tell me about all the trauma. But if you're asking about all the things, I think people can see who's genuine and they're willing to open up as a result. What do you, I was looking at your book. The subtitle just refers to his MVP win. So if they win the finals, obviously when the paperback comes out, maybe when the next edition of the hardcover comes out, the subtitle's changing, right? I mean, I can just imagine, I know as a

writer, what's going through your head. You're like, you're writing the epilogue for the paperback edition as you're watching every second of every game, right? Scrawling in a notebook. But like, what's it like to watch the end of your book getting rewritten? I mean, the publication is serendipitous, no doubt about it. But, you know, there's more to tell the story. There's more of the story now, right? Totally. I mean, every game, I'm like, oh, what about that? What if we lead with that image? We're going to have to do something on this. And what if when the, you know, preparing, when the confetti comes down, how are you going to know what it felt like? You know, just all these questions that I have. But it's interesting because even

know, you know, I had to stop the book at some point, and I tried to get it as close as possible to the present moment. But I like that his story is still going. I look forward to reading whoever writes the second Janus book, because there's something really interesting about writing a book on a superstar in real time. Like a lot of sports books, you know, minus, I guess what's coming to mind for me is like Marcus Thompson's, Katie, and Golden. most other ones are on retired players. But I think when you're writing on a current guy, it's interesting to chronicle it in real time

as people are processing his greatness and processing his journey. Because sometimes when you wait until somebody retires, there's a gauze over everything and you're not sure, is he remembering it the way it was or the way he wants it to be? And so I think it's, I don't know, it's an exciting opportunity to try to do it now,

even if it created problems. I wouldn't call it problems, but even if it created challenges as far as how to account for all these things out of my control that are happening next. As you'll see in the book, it ends on this concept of home.

And I wanted place to be a character in the book almost because we move around so much geographically, like the character of Sepulia, the character of Milwaukee, the character of other places in Athens, the character of every other place that he's traveled. And I wanted to see, does he feel like he's finally been rooted or grounded in home or identity? Because he is navigating not just geographical identities, but racial identities.

And even though they're on this miraculous finals run, I do think the ending and this idea of belonging in home is still so resonant. So hopefully, if they do win and I do the epilogue, it just adds on to that theme. So let's talk basketball for five seconds here. You said when you initially signed the contract, you were shooting for free agency. How surprised were you when he signed his extension with the bucks last year? You know, I was like very 50-50. Like, what if, you know, I could see it happening either way, right? Like I was hearing things that like, oh, no, maybe he might really leave.

But then, you know, I know how much his mom loves Milwaukee and the brothers love Milwaukee and wanted to be there and literally is building a life there. And I could see him staying because of just the tender anecdotes I learned from people about the loyalty that he feels because of the way they actually nurtured him like a son that rookie year. You know, they gave every family member a key to the gym. They jumped started the parent's car once when they were off the side of the road. You know, like there's just a different type of bond. So I saw it going either way.

But when it finally happened, I was like, you know what? This makes sense to me. Again, he wrote in his tweet, this is my home. And I think that just finally clicked like, okay, I know how to end this book now. What do you? Sorry. your crystal ball, if you weren't in Milwaukee, where did you think he was going to end up? Were you, like, on the Miami heat camp?

My Dallas Mavericks were trying to clear out every penny that they could to get under there. Like, what was your guess? Because right now, right now it's like so salt in the wound. It's funny, right? Like, watching him perform right now. Like, who lost out? Everyone's mad.

I, well, I know that he, Yonish shares the same agent as, as Bam out of bio. And so I was like, okay, like the heat thing makes sense to me. like maybe that's going to be a thing because they're really close. But then you remember the Mark Stein profile in the New York Times so good where he had that iconic quote where Janice was like said something along the lines of I just don't know if I could be in a flashy city. So I just, I was like, I just don't see it. Like I just, I can't see him in a Miami, you know. If you told him he could wear a sweatsuit every day of his life, he would do it.

And that was just not Miami. So I don't know. I was truly stumped like the, the. rest of them and I just kept coming back like Milwaukee. Like he legit loves Milwaukee. It makes sense to me. What are we? We talked a little about the mental aspect of his game that we're seeing right now.

But what do you think? Do you do you buy into him making the leaf right here before our very eyes in the playoffs? Or is this? I mean, obviously that's all sort of metaphorical. But like is he really evolving as a player? Right, right in front of us right now? Or is this a yonis that you and like? Like you said, the people of Milwaukee have been watching for a long time.

I do think there's a leap, but I think the leap is not just in terms of like, wow, 40 point games strung together because that is just incredible and it's like a literal leap. But I think what's going on is understanding his powers. For so long, especially I think was interesting learning about the Jason Kidd era, Jason Kidd would like bench him if he shot the ball, like a long distance shot. And, you know, so for like three, four years, he just wasn't confident in it, couldn't really do it, was working on it behind the scenes. I think that just messed him up so much.

And then Bud comes and it's like, I want you to let it fly. I want you to be this perimeter person. But what we're seeing in these playoffs, this final series is somebody that's understanding, I think, I am best when I go to the basket. I am best playing a prototypical center. Like, nobody can stop me when I'm that deep in the paint. Like, I'm just dunking. Like, they've got to have to foul me.

There's nothing they can do. versus I think before this, you could see him vacillating between trying to be this like, you know, prototype of this perimeter guy that he's just not. Like I think we made a mistake by comparing him to Kevin Durant early on in his career. You know, the scouting report from draft was that he's a poor man's Kevin Durant. And he would get compared to saying like, could he be LeBron? We should have been comparing him to Big Men and basically said, you don't need to shoot three. So I think what he's doing, the leap is understanding.

his power, what makes him most effective and how he can dominate by just being who he is and not trying to change that. How did it feel when Mike Breen said your name? So I'm just, okay, first of all, I've had like a routine with, I go to my parents' house, we watch the game. Everyone in my life is now a Bucks fan because they're rooting for me and the honest. And we're sitting there and we're watching the game and we hear him say there's a new biography and I just like turned to my parents and I'm like what like couldn't because I've never spoken to freedom my life like I have no connection and then we were just like part of us were like could you be another one but then he actually said my name and he said it correctly which is half

the battle and then I got a text message from every human I've ever known in my life and my phone was about to explode and I couldn't believe it. My family was so emotional. I was just so shocked and it was just one of the coolest things to ever happen. I'm still in shock and luckily there were some very kind people on the internet who caught the clip for me and I just kept replaying it. Like did that really happen? You know? Like it's just crazy. Well, congratulations. You said earlier on this, interview that this started when you were looking, you'd been wanting to write a book. I'm glad that you did. I mean, I've written a book myself. It's not always fun. It's not, especially when you're

like halfway through and staring at a deadline. It's not always fun. But when it works out the way that this is working out for you, it just seems like, like I said, the beginning, serendipity. What's next for you? What's, what's on your plate? Well, I want to do a second book if I'm so lucky. My goal that I've set for myself is a second proposal by December 2021. I just, like you said, it's hard. I mean, throughout this year, this was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life, like not just because COVID, not just because it's a global icon you're trying to write about, but like sources in another language, I mean, nothing will ever be this hard. But I found through doing this that I love this so much and I want to do this as long as I can.

So I hope that there's a second book for me. I have another feature for The Ringer coming out this week that I'm really excited about. I've been wanting to do this story for a really long time. It's a subject near and dear to my heart. So if I could just keep writing stories that, you know, are human and that I feel like matter to me and to other people. And humanizing athletes in a way that, you know, I wish they were humanized more. Like, I'll be a very happy person. Well, if you want to keep this week's story a secret, I will let you, although all I can say is that I am incredibly excited for it too.

Everybody go out and read this book. I mean, this is like, it's so, it's really is very rare that we get beautiful books about current athletes in their prime while their prime is happening while they're growing. I mean, it's like, you know, there's books in the kid section of the library about current athletes, but we don't always get the sort of insight that you've given us to, to Janus, and frankly, as you said in this interview, and there's so much more in the book, there's just so much we don't know about it. You know, I mean, we, like, we're diehard NBA fans at the ringer and listening to this podcast and everything else. And it's, it's really incredible how much new information, how much humanity you've uncovered. So thank you so much for doing this interview. And, uh, and thank you so much for writing this book. It's, well,

let me, let me say it officially. This is, it's Janus, the improbable rise of an NBA MVP by Miran Fader. Thank you so much for doing this, Mirren. Oh, thank you so much for all the kind words and for having me. This was fun. Thanks to Mirren Fader for stopping by. Thank you, as always, to our producer, Erica Cervantes. Thanks to Brian, even though he's not here right now. Thank you guys for

listening. We'll see you back here on Friday.