The Press Box - 'New York Times' Writer Caity Weaver on Profiling Celebrities, Justin Bieber and Hailey Baldwin’s Engagement, and Meghan Markle | Jam Session (Ep. 527)

Episode Date: September 20, 2018

The Ringer’s Amanda Dobbins talks with 'New York Times' writer Caity Weaver about what it’s like to profile celebrities including Maya Rudolph and Justin Bieber (2:57), her thoughts on Meghan Markle’s first four months as Duchess of Sussex (29:25), and Millie Bobby Brown going to Drake for dating advice (38:37). Read Caity's profile of Maya Rudolph here. Read Caity's profile of Justin Bieber here. Read Caity's profile of Dwayne Johnson here. Read Caity's article 'I Also Went to the Royal Wedding' here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelly. Here are a few things to check out in the Ringer universe before the end of the week. We've got an oral history on the movie Rounders 20 years later going up on Thursday. So read that and then check out the rewatchables episode that Bill and Sean did on the movie earlier this month. And don't forget about our extensive football coverage. We have a new pod going up every day of the week on the Ringer NFL show and more football content on the Bill Simmons podcast, dual threat, and against all odds. Subscribe to those and more on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Oh, and welcome to Jam Session. I'm Amanda Dobbins. It's just the AM today. Juliet is on a much-deserved vacation, but she texted me last night that she sat next to Princess Anne, like actual Princess Anne royalty at Hamilton in London. So Juliet is doing great. She's having the time of her life. She will be back soon to tell us about that royal sighting. And in the meantime, I am joined today by a very special guest, Katie Weaver of the New York Times. Katie, Hello.

Hello. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be on the show. I realized I didn't ask you how you would like to be introduced in terms of biography before now. So would you like to give your own biography? I'm putting you on the spot here. I noticed that you didn't.

I was wondering if you had something prepared. I should have. Delighted to see that you did not. No, it's more than I'm thoughtless. Do you want me to do it? Would you like to do it? I'm curious what you would say. Maybe not even giving my biography, but just how you would describe me based on our

previous interactions. I'd love to hear. It's kind of like a mini profile of me. I'm going to keep to professional stuff. So Katie works at the New York Times where she writes both for the newspaper and for the New York Times magazine. She recently published a profile of Maya Rudolph, which we're going to talk about. And before she worked at the New York Times, she worked at GQ magazine where she wrote cover stories about notable figures such as Justin Bieber, Kim Kardashian, The Rock. Who am I forgetting Katie? Gal Gadot, that was one of my favorites. I did Inside Tiffany, Haddish, and Cardi B. Oh, that's right. So essentially, Katie is one of our eminent celebrity profilers and some celebrity journalists,

which is why she is here today on Jam Session. We're going to talk about my Rudolph. We're going to talk about how Katie does her job because it's endlessly interesting to me. We're going to talk about Justin Bieber and Haley Baldwin, newly married. Katie has observed them. in person. So, and we're also going to do, we're going to talk about the fact that Katie Weaver went to the royal wedding. So it's really, it's all of our interests. Katie, you are very much in sync with the Jam Session brand. Yes, I feel very at home. Oh, good. I'm so good. So let's start with Maya.

If you haven't read it, it came out last week, just a really delightful profile of Maya Rudolph on the occasion of her new Amazon show forever. But Katie spent, it seems like you spent a good amount of time with her, Katie, am I right? I had three sessions with her, and they were all about two hours. And one thing that's a little bit funny is our first session was at a restaurant that is approximately near Maya's house. I didn't see her house, so I don't know exactly where it is. But when I'm in L.A., I will usually try to see Amanda, her husband. Yes.

And as I left the first session with Maya at this restaurant, I got an email from your husband suggesting that same restaurant for dinner the next day. So it just went right back. And God bless Katie, everyone, who went back because I really wanted to. She describes the French fries and the piece, and they are as good as she describes them to be, and I really wanted them. So thank you, Katie, for going back. I was happy to go back. It was delicious. So I had lunch with her the first day.

The second day was, I guess, probably the next day or maybe two days later. We went and did pottery because I really wanted us to have a scene in case, you know, the interview itself is born. and you always want to have a scene. Can you actually explain that a little more? I talk about this a lot, but it's boring when it comes from me. You actually do this for a living. So explain, like, why you want a scene in a piece. So basically just if all of the quotes are really boring,

you want to be able to, you need to pat it with, like, other things that you can describe in a couple thousand words. So our first session went well enough that I thought, okay, like, this will probably be good. But it's always good to have the option to break up the text in some way. And it's like, isn't it funny that I'm doing pottery with my? Rudolph, but actually, I ran out of, like, she was such a good talker that I didn't even mention the pottery in the final piece. It got cut from an early draft. Can I ask what kind of pottery it was? So we had, we had a wheel, and we had some kind of clay. Wait, you were throwing, like, pots on a wheel? I guess. Katie, that is so hard. It was really hard. I didn't like it at all, and Maya just

kept saying like, I'm so sorry that we're doing. I'm just going to share a personal anecdote. For Christmas, I was given pottery classes, ceramics classes, and I went to the first one and basically started crying in the class because I've never done anything that was, it was so not intuitive. I had literally no idea what's going on. And it also is so physical the wheel. Yeah.

So, I mean, I will say I was exactly the same way, but I didn't cry because my Rudolph was like so gentle and nice. Oh, that's really nice. Oh, it's like, you know, do it like this. It's okay. And the instructor was also very helpful. But it was essentially impossible to interview her because I, it was like the whole tape is just me and the instructor going back and forth about what I'm doing.

And like minor corrections and like Maya trying to help. And then at the very end, like maybe within the last 60 seconds of our little two-person class, we were adding, we both made bowls and we were adding like decoration to the bowls. So I took my little tool. My decoration ended up being that I, like, ripped my clay bowl in half. I just destroyed it. It's really upsetting, but also I did that, like, five times.

I think that's quite common. That's, I hope Maya Rudolph told you that. She just laughed. But so the instructor then, like, just, like, made me another one really fast. So I have a bowl made by a stranger that I did not make. And then Maya also let me take her bowl. Okay. So I also have a bowl made by Maya Rudolph that I'm afraid to use.

That's beautiful. It's nice to, you know, you got two pieces of pottery out of it. So that was your second meeting. And then I'm guessing your third meeting was the meeting at the Getty that you referenced in the piece. Yes. Yeah. And that was a couple months later. What is the, for people who don't do this, kind of what is the logic between like waiting a couple months?

That's when I could schedule the third meeting. Right. Sure. And I think it's also just. You know, like, it's important to have more than one meeting, definitely, because after the first, I'd go back over, you know, what we said and talked about. And I'm like, oh, I completely forgot to ask about this or I really want to follow up about that. And then I actually, at GQ, I never really had the luxury of having that much time in between meetings. But it was really nice to, like, let some time pass, let more news come out and then touch back in with the person and see, like, okay, like, was it a fluke how you were months ago or is this just your personality? Right. Was I catching you on a great day, announce an off day, or maybe vice versa. Maybe the first two meetings wouldn't go really well. And then the third would be like, oh, she's great. But she was really lovely at all of our meetings. And I really, really liked the Getty Center. I've never been. It's fantastic. I took my mother there a few months ago. It's really beautiful. It's kind of like being in Europe for a morning. I mean, not. But I guess it's just because I only go to museums in Europe because I'm not cultured in my day-to-day life. Yeah, it's really nice. So I had a question for you. you mentioned in the piece that Maya Rudolph is someone who's important to you personally or has been important to you personally. And I was curious what it was like to interview someone who actually matters to you, this idea of, you know, because there is that idea of never meet your heroes or sometimes it's just a job and this is someone who you have a connection to.

Was that, did that make it better or was it make it more nerve-wracking? I was anxious for how the piece would be received because, like you said, Maya is very personally important to me. So I kind of have trouble even really objectively gauging how important she is to the world at large. It's like, you know, you want to tell everyone about your dreams because they're so interesting and everyone else is like, I don't really care. Like I think about Maya definitely more than the average person. So I'm like, I hope people also want to read this. it was extremely nerve-wracking to meet her, especially not just because she was my hero, but because comedians are notoriously hard to interview.

Yeah, can you explain why that is? They're just, like, unpleasant. I've done a couple, and I've had a couple phoneers, which are just, like, super short phone calls with comedians. And sometimes, I won't name names, but there were a couple where I was thinking, like, why did you even agree to do this? because you clearly don't like it and you also don't need to be doing it. And like you're ruining my day. Yeah. Like none of this has to be happening.

But I will say she was super, super lovely. Like I couldn't believe just she was really as I kind of dreamed she would be. She was really, really nice. And I also had to talk to Amy Poehler and Tina Faye on the phone for this. And they were both very nice. And I think part of that is just that they really seem to genuinely love Maya Rudolph. I think she's someone who people really, really like. Can you talk a little bit just about how you prepare for a story like this?

Sure. You don't have to give away trade secrets, but just to give people a sense of the amount of work that goes into this and the kind of work. It's not even secrets. It's just the most obvious things that would occur to someone to do or what I did. You'd be surprised, but continue. So I'll always do a Google. I'll check Google news to see what they're talking, if they've been in the news for any reason lately. But the most valuable thing is just going through old, like I will read every single interview they've ever done.

And I'm a pretty fast reader, so I actually usually can get through everything, even on a tight turnaround. I remember the first thing I ever, ever did for GQ was a double interview over breakfast with Larry David and Julia Louis Dreyfus. Oh, I remember this. And I did that with such little notice. And I did in like my great system just to read everything about them. So I read like literally every interview they had given. Over like 30 to 40 years between them. Yeah.

But I did it basically just in a day, maybe a day and a half. And so then you just go and really that's helpful to know like you get some basic biographical details. But really you can see anecdotes that they've shared before. So I know if they start to bring something up, it's like got to speed this conversation long. I have limited time. You've already told this to like L. No, not on my time. So you read everything, you figure out anecdotes.

Do you write down questions? Yes. Okay. So I've talked to a couple other friends who do this differently. Some are like, no, I just go and have a normal conversation. No way in hell I'm trying to have a normal conversation here. I write way more questions than I could ever possibly get through. I write like, you know, if I have an hour, I'll try to go with like 120 questions or something, just ready.

And then I try to like kind of, I group them by order or an order that I think it would be good to move from subject to subject because like I don't want to, you don't want to open with something super heavy. Right. And then so I'll sort of try to memorize a loose order. And then I won't look at the questions when I'm with someone in person, but it is nice, number one, just to like know that if it goes super, super, super far south, I can consult this list. And then if there's, if there's an awkward lull in conversation, sometimes it's nice to be. be able to say like, oh, you know, let me look at my list of questions and see if there's anything. It can be a good way to transition to a topic that you otherwise might not have been able to get to. That's smart. It's fascinating that it's your job to just go and talk to

people and make them like you and tell you everything that you want to know about them. Do you feel like you're very good at it? Do you feel suited to it? I would say I absolutely hate talking to people, but I do do it kind of compulsively. Like in college, I remember one of my good friends said to me once, and this was a criticism, anytime we had a party, like a big group party, I wouldn't hang out with my friends. I would always be over talking to strangers. And I think it's because I hate the idea of people feeling uncomfortable. So if I see someone standing alone, even though I really don't want to go, the last thing I want to do is go talk to a stranger, I'll be like, I'll go do it. I'll talk to them. So I am prone to, like, getting conversations

rolling and moving them along. That's also, that's conversation from a place of kindness and empathy, which I think is a really important skill in all of these, because you do have to get the person you want to talk to you. I guess. But also for these conversations, I know that I'm, like, this is not the way to make a friend. I'm not going to be real. life friends with any of these people. And I am really nosy and I love gossip. So like if I have a question about any aspect of a celebrity's life, I will never have another opportunity to ask them. So I don't worry about them not liking me. I just ask whatever I want because it's like, okay, I got one shot. I got to shoot my shot. Like when I was with Bieber, the monkey story was

years old news at that point that he had essentially like, well, depending on how you frame it, abandoned or lost his monkey to Germany to the state of. to the nation of Germany. Normal sentence, yeah. And it's like, this is the old news, but I really want to know, and I'm probably not ever going to meet Justin Bieber again to ask him. So we just talked about it, and it ended up being an interesting, strange conversation. It really does.

We're going to talk more about that Bieber story. But first, the last question I wanted to ask you about Maya Rudolph, is there anything else that just didn't fit in the piece for some reason or other that meant something to you that? you don't mind sharing with the world? Oh, well, there was a funny, so when we were doing the pottery, it was me and Maya an instructor, and then on the other side of the studio was a Girl Scout troop, and as we're doing the pottery,

Maya just looks up and says, there's someone else named Maya here. And she was explaining that, you know, growing up, she was the only person named Maya that she knew, and now tons of kids are named Maya, so she hears her name constantly. And she had to cute back and forth with the girl, Like the little Maya ended up coming over to wash her hands or something, and Maya asked, no, it was your name Maya. And she said, yeah, and she said, me too. And then the girl's friends thought it was really cool, she's talking to an adult, and they're talking about how you spell it and da-da-da-da-da. But the story that grown Maya then shared that was really funny was she said, once she was at SNL and maybe it was like after summer break or something. And Lauren Michael's daughter came up to her and said, like, oh, got a dog over break. And Maya said, oh, that's fun.

His daughter said we named her Maya. Oh, no. What? I know. It's such a confusing story. I said I would have burst into tears. Oh, my gosh. All right, I don't have anything to add to that.

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slash jam. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. Katie, you interview Justin Bieber in two 2016. And I believe that there is a scene in that profile for GQ that I think about every single time someone talks about Justin Bieber and Haley Baldwin, which they have been doing a lot lately for reasons we will discuss. But do you know the scene that I'm talking about? Absolutely. Can you explain it in your own words what it was like to experience it? Yes. So I actually reread the story on the subway on the way here to prepare. I encourage everyone to be. Google GQ Bieber. We'll include that link. We'll put it in the podcast link. So everyone, please look on the website.

We'll share it. So I was, Bieber was my first profile for GQ. I don't think his people knew that. And I also, I don't think they had Googled me beforehand, which I think almost no one Googles the writer. I mean, I do think it's true. I think his people wouldn't let me do it.

No. Because I'd written about him for Gawker. I do think that there is a whole school of, publicists who are very aware and celebrities who are very aware who are writing it and who offer very specific feedback. Maybe just everybody likes you and wants you to write their pieces. I don't think that's it. Maybe it depends, like, you know, between companies, maybe some companies are really good at it.

I don't think Bieber's people did. I will say the only celebrity I've ever had to ask me how I prepare is, of course, Dwayne the Rock Johnson, loves to ask questions. Of course. And I told him, and I asked him what he did to prepare. and he said he googled me and clicked like the first link that I don't know if it still is, but at that time it was Elon Musk had just followed me on Twitter and I was the only woman he was following. So for GQ, Chris Giamali and I did a little interview about like me being the first woman that Elon Musk followed on Twitter and how that was confusing to me and I didn't know who he was. So I remember that blog post, but I haven't thought about it since then.

That's just like a lot has changed since then. A lot. Well, he doesn't follow me anymore, so that's the big of change. I think you're lucky. And if he did, maybe he'd be picking up some good tips from my Twitter. So maybe you should follow me back. So Dwayne read that and he, or I read, he might have skimmed it. I don't know.

He said he thought it was funny. And then he clicked over to Google images and saw a picture of me and thought I looked mixed. And like that was the extent of his research. And that came up also because he asked me really early on. if I was mixed, like out of the blue. And I am. But I was like, how do you know? Yeah.

How do you respond to that in the moment with from the rock? Well, I will say, and I actually talked about this with him, I think mixed people, and this came up when I was writing the Maya story, I think mixed people are really good at picking out other mixed people. Maybe because we're like hyper aware of it and we're always looking for other people who could be mixed. I also will say that Black people, and Dwayne is Black and Polynesian, and I'm Black and White. In my experience, black people are more likely to ask what you're mixed with. I've never had a white person. Well, I've never had a white person ask me like that.

Like, what are you mixed with? But I've had many, like I remember very vividly walking up to rent a car in an airport. And the first thing the guy working the desk said to me was, what are you mixed with? I'm just here to get a car. I was like, but I want it. It's quite a life that you lead. But we're so far away from the Bieber question. Well, I was about to say, I suspect that Justin Bieber did not prepare for your interview in any way.

100% did not. So I was interviewing him at the hotel where he lived at that time. I don't know if he still technically lives there because it was right before he was going on a super long world tour. And we were chatting up on. on the roof deck by the pool. And he just is someone who gets very antsy. So he wanted to go stretch her legs and kind of walk around. So first we went down to the hotel garage and he showed me a car he has.

And then we went up to his suite. And he opened the door to his suite. And Haley was there. She was sitting on the bed. She was wearing, I think, a black crop top and maybe black jeans. And I'll never forget it because she was truly doing nothing. She was not reading. She was not looking at her phone.

The TV was not on. There was no music playing. It was just her sitting there. And I think about that a lot. I mean, was it in like a meditative way or was she just kind of blankly staring? I guess I can't. We can't really speculate on her face. I mean, there may be the same thing.

So I think maybe, maybe she'd gotten a heads up that we were coming down because I believe she at that point had just And the dog had been up at the pool with us. Right. So maybe someone took the dog to the room and said they're going to be coming. But that's total speculation. I have no idea. She was really just sitting there. And she was polite.

She was nice. She said like, what's up? And then Justin, I think just took out a guitar and, like, started to play. And I remember worrying, like, I have limited time with Justin Bieber and how much. long as you're going to play this damn guitar. And he played just a couple songs, but it was very odd to be essentially serenaded by Justin Bieber with Haley Baldwin there and the dog. And now he's apparently serenating her in London at Buckingham Palace.

And also they're married. They're legally married. Well, Alec Baldwin said that, but I would bet that he doesn't have like the most up-to-date news. Okay, but so I mean, I agree with you. I think we can leave Alec Baldwin out of this. But according to People magazine, I mean, to read this. A religious source spoke to the family and confirmed to people that they were

legally married at the New York City courthouse, but are going to have a religious ceremony and celebration with friends and family soon. And they were also spotted, like photographed by TMZ going into the courthouse where the marriage licenses are given in New York City. So I feel like the fact that it's a religious spokeperson, it's like one of their many pastors being the person confirming it to people, is the reason that I believe it. They might be. So wait, I'm sorry, was that, did TMZ confirm that? So TMZ has photos of them going into the courthouse. Right, right. And People has a religious source close to them confirming that they were legally married.

I would say it sounds probable, but I really, especially for Bieber stuff, deferred TMZ. Okay, interesting. Tell me why. They're just almost never wrong. They're really, really, really well sourced, especially I think for Bieber stuff. They seem to get a lot of his stuff early. Also, speaking of marrying Haley. I had forgotten this, but while I was rereading my piece, he mentions marrying Haley. I'm so glad you brought that up because I had the same thought. I had forgotten, I remembered the Haley stuff, and I remembered the monkey, and I remembered Justin, you know, Justin Bieber living in a hotel and being kind of out of it. But I had forgotten this pretty emotional paragraph where he's talking about, you're basically like, is she your girlfriend? Why are you dating anyone?

which very valid questions. And rereading this now, I kind of, I didn't give him as much credit at the time. It's a little bit thoughtful. Was it thoughtful in the moment? At the moment, it felt skeevy. Okay. I'm going to read a bit of it just to, I don't want to put anyone into a position where they feel like I'm only theirs, only to be hurt in the end. Okay, I mean, I guess that's a little, you know, right now in my life, I don't want to be held down by anything.

I already have a lot that I have to commit to. Honestly, fair. So now I'm just more so looking at the future, making sure I'm not damaging them. What if Haley ends up being the girl I'm going to marry? If I rush into anything, if I damage her, then it's always going to be damaged. I mean, now that they're actually married, I guess this seems thoughtful. You're right at the time. It just sounds like fuck boy stuff.

I definitely did not glean from that paragraph when he said it, like, that they were going to get married. So was he just going back and forth between Selena and Haley for, a long time? I don't think so, but I don't know. That's a better question for Selena. Yeah, I guess that's true. I do feel like even this year, he and Selena were photographed together and everyone was like, oh, they're back together.

And now Justin Bieber is apparently legally, possibly legally married to. At the very least, engaged with every intention of marrying Haley-Wall 1. Which is enough for me to be concerned, personally. It seemed a little abrupt, but I mean, I guess if you are able to just sit in a hotel room and do nothing and wait for your man to breeze through, you know, at any hour, I mean, I guess that's a sign you're invested. I don't know. I guess so. It just seems, I don't know. I don't think anyone needs to be getting engaged this quickly or married that quickly.

But they're very religious. That's true. I mean, I know what that is, but I understand that, and I assume that that's a big part of it. But I don't know. It still seems a little, I guess I wish them well. I don't know why I'm concerned trolling. It breaks my rules about time limits and relationships, but their life looks very different from mine and from most of the people that I know. So I'm just going to keep my nose out and wish them well. That's where I am on it. I want to know why I went to Buckingham Palace. Oh, yeah, this is the other thing. And this also is a nice.

transition into our next segment. But apparently for reasons that are not totally clear, I think they were in London for Fashion Week, because it is London Fashion Week. Justin Bieber suddenly gave an impromptu concert for Haley Baldwin outside of Buckingham Palace today. It's just much like when you were in the room with them, Katie, he just pulled out of guitar and just started playing for her and she was taking photos of the whole thing. So strange. You guys. You guys. can, you're engaged. You can see him play guitar anywhere, any time while you're photographing it. Also, when you're at Buckingham Palace, there are other things to see besides just some beeper. It's really funny. Oh, wait, I have a fashion week note. I can't really explain this,

but I think it's significant in some way. The fact that they got at least a marriage license, if not officially married, right kind of in the middle of the fashion week cycle and toward the tail end of New York Fashion Week, which is really, I believe, the only time of year, Haley, Baldwin is like slightly busy. Yes. It was odd to me. It seems like the worst time to do it, I would guess, because those are only valid for a set number of days. Yeah, that's a great point.

And it's a lot of days, but still. Well, I guess if they wanted to do it after fashion week, then you do it while you're in New York? I don't really know. I think probably they were just both in New York. None of this is planned. It's not like they're being thoughtful about. I mean, maybe they are being thoughtful. That's rude. But they aren't doing things on a, on the usual timetable. How about that? It seems a little bit driven by impulse. Well, I wish them well. I, you know, good luck. Let's, let's segue from Buckingham Palace into what I'm going to call the Megan Markle report by Katie Weaver, which is a segment about Megan Markle.

and we on the jam session have been like checking in intermittently, but we haven't really done a full Megan Markle deep dive since the Royal Wedding. And as luck would have it, Katie, you attended the Royal Wedding. Yes, I would describe my whole life as a segment on Megan Marble. Okay, great. So let's start with the Royal Wedding. You attended the events outside the Royal Wedding, is my understanding, right? Correct.

I was not invited to the actual wedding. That would have been nice. Katie wrote a great piece about that in The Times as well, which we'll link to. But what stays with you about the royal wedding, like three to four months later, Katie? Wow, every single second of it. I can give you a play-by-play in real time right now if we have eight hours. Okay. We'll do an extra segment later that will make people pay a lot of money for.

On this one, give me the streamlined version. Okay. So the thing that I think is most surprising to Americans is that people in the UK thought Megan Markle was very famous, thought she was a really big star. That's incredible. Suits is a show over there that is watched, that is known. And if you look up the top stream shows, I can't matter if it was just for the UK or if it was internationally, number one is like Nama Thrones. And suits is like number eight for a couple years. People were literally breaking the law to watch suits.

stop at nothing to watch suits. But is that because Magin Markel started dating Prince Harry, or is that because people are like suits? We love the USA Network. They absolutely love a slick legal drama from the USA Network. Okay. Has anyone told them about the good wife? I don't know. Okay. But, so I kept asking people, I wish I could remember even what question I was asking.

I'm sure it was like, what do you think? And they were just like, well, you know, she's so famous. It's like, she's not. And I would tell them she's only famous in the U.S. Really for dating Harry. And they'd be like, well, suits, surely. No. How dare you? Can I ask, so let me just ask one thing here.

Yeah. All the people that you're asking about Megan Markle and suits are people who also traveled to the royal wedding, right? No, no, no, no. They're the people who live in London, like British people are who I'm asking. Okay. So this was not like outside the castle gates. No, so this was I got invited to a wedding. really fancy book party in London because a friend of mine just had a friend who lived there and knew I didn't have anything to do except eventually attend the wedding of my best friend Megan Markle.

Right. So he went and I just got his friend invite me to this fancy book party. So I met a lot of like wealthy Londoners who thought that she was a big deal. Okay. And then the wedding itself was in Windsor, which is outside London. Right. So that was a big takeaway. Well, I'm glad for the rest of the suits cast, you know?

That's nice. That's nice that they have a following. Absolutely. And also, I don't know what it's like now, but while I was over there, it was kind of all the crazy Thomas Markle drama was just starting to heat up. And like he's talking to DMZ and he's staging all these photos. And the British papers and the British people were much more sympathetic to him at that time. They've really thought the palace should have been doing more to protect him. Whereas I felt like in the U.S. it was like, this guy's going to blow it for us. Why can't he calm down? And they were like, it's terrible what they're doing to that man. You mentioned to me that you have a theory on the dad stuff now because it's gotten it's gotten uglier. I kind of, I don't remember totally what I thought, but I felt, I definitely felt bad for her and it felt like he had not gotten enough help. Like he was kind of in over his head. And I don't know whether I think that that is the case anymore. I don't even know if it's a theory, but something seems to have happened before even the engagement was in.

because when the engagement was announced, Thomas hadn't met Harry. And I remember thinking at the time that that was very strange, that they wouldn't fly to Mexico for like half an hour just so they could say, oh my God, of course Harry and Thomas have met. It was odd to me to be like, they haven't met that they've talked on the phone, especially since Megan's mom lived in California. Help-wise, I guess I got to go to town with a little more help. I don't know that Megan's mom necessarily got much more help than he did. She seems to be doing fine. But Thomas Merkel a few months ago gave a really crazy long interview to the Daily Mail over a course of, like, days. And it really seemed like he was dropping hints that he was about to fake his own kidnapping.

Did you read this? Yes. Okay, so he was talking a lot about the potential for him to get kidnapped. And he was saying, like, I'm not saying I'm going to get kidnapped, but I'm certainly a target. It probably won't happen. but it very well could happen. And I was like, is this man about to kidnap himself? I really wouldn't be surprised if he kidnapped himself.

But it was just, it was so odd. And I also, you know, the sister keeps talking. Right. I don't really know that anyone's listening. The Daily Mail was for a while, which was part of the problem. Yeah. And also me, because I'm clicking all these stories. Right, I was going to say, and me and basically,

and everyone who listens to the jam session is devoted daily mail readers, which, like, I know. I can't help it. Yeah. My take was always just that she and her father were not close. The thing is they were close. Well, I think more to the point, I think there was some sort of falling out, which is some sort of, and I don't know when, but it was clearly like before the engagement. But even like a couple years ago, she was, and this may have been a lot, but she was saying in interviews that she had like a photo of him at her graduation on her nightstand. Like the year maybe before she got engaged.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean. that they're, they still have a good relationship. It just means that she knows to include him in stories for her lifestyle website, which, you know, she, she was a blogger. She was very much used to doing press and kind of painting a certain picture of her life. So I don't know. I mean, I think you're right that there was a time when they were close. It seemed to me like there was some sort of falling out. And that was why. Something happened. Yeah. It's odd to not introduce your father, even truly just for propriety's sake, just so when people say, your dad didn't meet him, you could say, like, of course he met him.

Right. How do you feel about the first four months of Duchess Megan, aside from the father's stuff? What has been a highlight for you? Yellow dress. Yellow dress. Which one was that? Yellow. Yellow.

I know. Which? Hold on. Now I'm just Googling Yellow dress Megan Markle. This is how podcasts get made, everyone. I don't know how to describe it. I ain't more than that, my friend. Okay.

Oh, this is nice. Yeah. Okay. It's not really clear where she wore it, but it was very nice. Can I ask you a question? And I know that Megan is your best friend and that she means a lot to you. So please don't take this the wrong way. This is also my worst enemy.

Right. What's up with her interest in really, really long pants? Like really long pants. I don't know. Have you noticed this? It gives me a little bit of anxiety. She plays dirt several times, including at Wimbledon. She was just wearing pants that they're literally dragging on the ground.

I don't understand. I can only think that it's sort of a sign of like immense wealth and status that it doesn't matter if I ruin these expensive pants or like I'm not going anywhere dirty enough that these pants will be permanently sullied. Right. It stresses me out to see it. I don't understand. understand it. That also, it doesn't, projecting immense wealth and carelessness for clothes doesn't really seem like Megan's brand. But that, I think she counterbalances it with the messy bun. Yeah. No, I don't, I mean, I wish that they were a bit shorter. That's my personal style preference.

But I don't even think it's not that they look absolutely terrible. I just don't really get it. It's a noticeable thing. Yeah, I think they actually look cool. I think she can pull it off and maybe that's why she does it, but it definitely stresses me out to think of, like, the bottoms of those pants must be dirty. Yes. And then she's wearing them into a house. Yes. God forbid that house has a white carpet or something.

Or it rains. And what if it rains? I don't understand it all. She's a lot of few misses with the outfits. Yeah. But she's so pretty that she usually, I think her baseline is she'll look good. Even at her worst, she'll look good. I agree.

And then when she puts on that yellow dress, come on. Yeah, I think some of it is just the type of dressing that is quote unquote expected as a member of the royal family is very different from her natural style. And you can kind of see her trying to figure out what the compromise is between like what Kate Middleton does and what she would normally wear and what is comfortable for her, which is hard. Like I wouldn't know how to do it. But I agree it hasn't totally been. She hasn't quite figured it out. It's early. It's early.

She has a whole lifetime of being a duchess. Oh my God. Yeah, she's trapped in this forever. She'll figure it out eventually. Okay. We have a lightning round to close out the podcast. And it's not just a lightning round. It's a very specific type of lightning round.

It's three topics which we have grouped under the rubric of please stop because there are just some things that you, especially Katie, and all three of these just feel that celebrities need to stop. So we'll just go through them quickly. Our point is pretty much been made. Please stop. But we'll talk about them. The first is Drake texting Millie Bobby Brown. Drake, please stop texting Millie Bobby Brown.

So to give a bit of context, Millie Bobby Brown, who is 14 years old, recently told Access Hollywood that she regularly texts with Drake, who is 31 years old, and that Drake gives her advice about her love life. And says he misses her. Right. So, again, she is 14 and he is 31. Okay. I got to say, this is said, I know she's 14, I don't want to rag on a 14-year-old. I don't think she should be allowed to use Bobby Brown as part of her name. Okay.

I think that's fair as well. Might not be Millie Brown. But more importantly, Drake stopped texting her. You have no reason to be missing a 14-year-old who's not your daughter. That's an extremely valid take that, but just please stop. That's all. I think that's all we have to say about that, right? Okay.

Okay. The next one. Blake Lively and her power suits. Katie, the floor is yours. I just want Blake Lively to stop everything. Blake, stop. Okay, this is the one where there's a bit of discussion. And I already told you that I was going to challenge you on this and you refuse to do the podcast if I did, which is why we put it at the end.

But, yeah, because now I already have everything else on tape. I think that Blake Lively has finally found her lane, which is, over the top, truly ridiculous movies, like a simple favor. which she was in this weekend and also the shark movie. And then also wearing ridiculous power suits that, I mean, they are a statement. Sometimes she's layering power suits on top of power suits. It's, it is not subtle and it's not refined, but it makes, it makes sense. She's not trying to be fussy or, like, do whatever weird artisanal craft thing that she did. What was, was it called preserve?

Yeah, that was nutty. So she's, I think this makes sense for her. I think that this is the right Blake Lively. She's kind of settled on something that I understand it now. And I'm like, sure, okay, yeah, you can be in weird movies and wear ridiculous suits. You disagree. I would say the right Blake Lively does not exist. Okay.

Here's Blake's line. Blake Lively got married on a plantation. And that's the end of the story. I think she should stop. And I think Ryan Reynolds should stop. Both of them stop. That is hard to argue with. You know, fair enough.

Okay. I kind of, sometimes I think I would like to profile her. She, I'm sure, would not consent. But I just, I'm dying for anyone who ever interviews them. If you're listening to this and you one day interview Blake or Ryan, please ask them only questions about the plantation wedding and how it came to be. I'm so curious. That is a great journalism suggestion.

So hopefully someone will do that. Free tip. Okay. That's Blake lively. Our third topic. Kylie Jenner's thoughts on cereal. May I read the tweet to you, Katie? No. Okay. Good. I'm going to anyway. Kylie Jenner, last night I had cereal with milk for the first time, life-changing.

This is, we don't believe that this is the first time. Am I correct? Please stop lying. Yeah, please stop lying. Maybe she doesn't do it regularly. It's not really possible if you're a regular cereal eater to not have had cereal with milk. That's kind of my thing. Maybe you've never had cereal before.

Maybe that's something that's like never happened for you. Like I've never had Chipotle. It just like never worked out for me. But that to me is more believable that she just didn't have the food group than that she didn't have cereal with its most obvious pairing. Okay. Here's what I think. That family loves to repackage their food. and clear containers, so they definitely have cereal around.

Yeah. Chris had so many kids, even if she wasn't regular making all their meals, there's no way that at some point she did not put a bowl that can take both cereal and milk in front of her youngest daughter. There's no way, especially if other kids are having cereal on milk. She'd just do it, like, out of habit. I would believe that she doesn't do it regularly. Maybe she doesn't even really remember having done it before. There's no way this is the first time she's had cereal with milk. I think the only kind of argument is that Kylie is the youngest of just a lot of siblings at this point.

Her life probably got, her life did in fact get much stranger, much sooner. So what? She's on TV by the time she's six or seven. Wow, was she that young? They're really young in the first episodes of Kardashians. I mean, maybe she's 10. But, you know, even if your life is suddenly, if your reality. It's a lot like Drake, my friend.

You're bumping up these ages worth then. I'm just saying, I do think that it's possible that things were just so weird so early on that she just has been, like, eating their takeout salads since she was, like, seven. But it seems... But the other thing, breakfast is something... Breakfast, I think, is so much more uniform across the United States, across classes. Like, you have a different kind of lunch. You have a fancier dinner, but there are only so many breakfast foods, especially in the morning when you're pressed for time.

That's true. I just think she had to have had it. Like a friend's mom had to have given it to her something. Whose friend's house is she going to to spend the night? She's been on camera since she was like, you know, really young. Aldwin? Yeah, probably not. I don't know.

I don't believe this either. But. And she's also lying about not having fillers and you still have fillers for in a way you look like, girl. We've seen pictures of you? Right. Okay. Yes, that's it. So Kylie Jenner, please stop.

No one liar. Yeah. Okay. A real buffet of celebrity topics. Katie, thank you so much. for joining us. We will put all of Katie's pieces that we talked about

in the show notes for this podcast, but also Katie Weaver at the New York Times and also at Katie Weaver. Her Twitter is a site to behold, the eighth wonder of the world.

So please follow her. And Katie, thank you again. Thank you for having me. Also, I want to say, my name is spelled a really stupid way. It's cavity without the V. Yeah. It's spelled the same way

as Katie Lotz. C-I-T-Y. Yeah. Also, we'll be. in the podcast show notes, but C-I-T-Y-Y-Y-W-R-A-Laz's Twitter. Don't block Katie Lotz on Twitter and follow Katie Weaver.

Katie Weaver, everyone. Thanks so much. We'll be back in two weeks. Bye.