The Press Box - Rehashing ‘Star Wars: The Last Jedi’ With Mallory Rubin | The Dave Chang Show

Episode Date: May 17, 2018

In his first micropod, chef and Momofuku founder Dave Chang is joined by The Ringer’s Mallory Rubin to recapitulate their debate over the controversial film ‘Star Wars: The Last Jedi.’ Stay tuned for Dave’s interview with ‘Last Jedi’ director Rian Johnson and film critic Karina Longworth later this week. Subscribe to 'The Dave Chang Show' feed here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hello, Channel 33 listeners. This is Mallory Rubin, executive editor of Theringer.com. You were about to hear a micropod that chef Dave Chang and I teeth last week for his podcast, The Dave Chang Show, regarding our civil and at times not so civil disagreement on Star Wars, The Last Jedi. This is a conversation that begun at the Ringer holiday party and resolved itself beautifully. in my victory, convincing him that this is a wonderful movie. Please remember also that you can find more of the Dave Chang Show on Apple Podcast, Stitcher, Spotify,

or wherever you get your podcast, including Dave's interview with Ryan Johnson, the director of Star Wars of The Lost Jedi, and Karina Longworth, the host of the excellent you must remember this podcast. We hope do you enjoy. Welcome to the Dave Chang Show, part of the Ringer podcast network, presented by Major Domo Media. We are doing something we've never done before. We're doing like a micropod about Star Wars, The Last Jedi, with the Ringer's own, Mallory Rubin. What is up?

I'm here with my takes. So the reason why I thought this might be a good idea, because we literally didn't plan this. We just were talking about the Ryan Johnson pod that we just did with Kriena Longworth. And I had a good story to tell about the ringer Christmas party, which was probably around five days after the Last Jedi. That's right. And had a few drinks, sat down with Malibu. I was sober.

I'd like to clarify that I was sober. And in full possession of my thoughts. And even sober, I do not have those things. But somehow we got into a heated debate. Yes. And I told you how I had, I'm going to say, reservations about the movie. Okay. So you're already running from the reality of your fiercely stated opinion.

was torn. I didn't like parts of it because I was, I want to say angry. I wanted it to be like it used to be. Right. Which was a very linear, narrow-minded trajectory of how a character might act in a universe, galaxy far, far away. Yeah. The fanboys fear change. Yeah. You know? Yes. And that night I was like, I don't know why. Well, we just got into it. And you brought up, we're not going to recall the conversation, but you brought up many. The conversation. that I dominated. You didn't dominate. I'm just saying.

Yeah, that one. You might have dominated. In retrospect, yes, you definitely dominated. Because I was just like, what is up with this person that is glowing with optimism? This was also just for a little extra context here. Our first conversation ever. Ever. Yes.

I was like, hey, nice to meet you. Big fan. Here are my takes. I don't know how. Which in hindsight is strange. Right into arguing about Last Jedi. Immediately. And I think it tells a lot about the person that I, close-minded me, was like advocate for Star Wars orthodoxy and closed-mindedness, which I don't think is a representative of who I am as a person, but that could tell you the power of growing up as a kid watching Star Wars his entire life.

And then Malley Rubin, who I've listened to on pods and but never met, had a conversation. she immediately brings this open-minded, humanist perspective about Star Wars, and I found it I was allergic to that idea. You were. You were offended and dare I say repulsed. It was. I got, you know, aided by some alcohol. But I don't recall anything other than like, man, I can't believe she's such a do-gooder. Yes, which that's me. That's me in every facet of my life, just a shining beacon of optimism and do-gooder spirit.

But without going into the exact thing, what were your initial impression of watching The Last Jedi? So I think by the time we had spoken, I had seen it twice already. And so I had had the initial experience of just trying to process the sheer plot. For me, the second viewing was really when I started to think about, like, where this film fit into the macro Star Wars universe. And that was actually when I got really excited about it, because I am just a huge nerd. and love fantasy stories. And for me, like, one of the things that seemed to be alienating

a large portion of the fan base was how much of the film, in essence, subverted expectations. What we were going to find... Spoiler alert, guys, if you're... If you somehow have not seen Star Wars Last Jedi yet, proceed with caution.

You know, what a large portion of the fan base seemed to want was for Ray's parentage, the mystery of raised parentage, to hinge on some reveal about the sky. and to connect to the larger story in that way, for the truth about Snoke to similarly connect to the overarching plot and everything that people have really cared about for 30 years.

Countless other examples we could use, you know, people being offended by Leah, suddenly using the force. And for me, all of those things were actually thrilling twists because, first of all, I think we're at the point where we can just acknowledge and accept that Star Wars is going to continue forever. And, like, that's great. I think that's dope. But I also think that if it's going to continue to excite not only people who have loved the story for decades as we have, but a new generation of fans, something has to change. And I don't think that honoring what is special about the story for legions of fans and finding a way to change and stay fresh are mutually exclusive. And I think it's a narrow way to think about it.

I really believe that you can simultaneously say the heart and the DNA, the thing that you love about this story, is still there. And also here are all of these new interpretations and new twists and new plot devices that we can use so that this isn't always just a story about strawheaded farm boys who, like, kind of suck and are definitely virgins. No shots at Luke, you know. No shots. But just saying. The forces is his partner. A lifelong love. So here's the deal.

You just gave an incredibly lucid argument for embracing the last Jedi. What you just said right now, I'm pretty sure is exactly what you said at the Christmas party. And dummy me was basically like wrong. To be fair. To be fair. It's distinctly possible that I spent the bulk of the conversation talking about Kylo Wren's abs. I would not roll that out and I could see how that would be alarming in the first conversation with somebody. But that was interesting for me because then I had only sit at once and I took the position that many bro.

Star Wars dude nerds took that like, hey, this is fucking up my dream utopia of Star Wars. And at that time, talking to you, I was so like, what the fuck? How can this be? How can she be so excited about the new trajectory? And now, like, listening to you give this conversation again, I'm like, of course you're right. And I was so fucking stupid. That's okay. Listen, part of this, part of Star Wars, part of any good fantasy storytelling, it's a journey of discovery.

It's about finding yourself, as much as it is about finding the answers. That's the other thing for me. My favorite thing about the movie was the Kylo Ray interactions using the FaceTime Force Connection, all of their scenes, the idea of where we all sort of are on the spectrum of good and evil, light and dark. I thought that was really well handled and extremely compelling. But just more broadly, I think the reason that we are all dream. on to fantasy stories in addition to just like, whoa, wouldn't it be cool if we had lightsabers and spaceships is the idea that at the most fundamental level, anyone anywhere can be special. Like you in your bedroom, wherever you are right now, listening to this, or watching a movie, or reading a Harry Potter book or whatever it might be, you can only be fully transported into a tale if you think, like, that could be me one day.

And I just think that the choices Ryan Johnson made in this movie actually brought in that possibility for people in a way that just sticking to like the strict, you know, originalist interpretation of Star Wars would not allow in a sustainable fashion. I have nothing further to say. Also, BB8, my dude. What a great movie for BB. Yeah, it's amazing to me because I think I represent probably a good portion of the people. And I am friends with Ryan.

And it was so hard for me. And once I watched it again, so I saw it three times in the movie theater. by myself. Okay. And then subsequently, on every air cross-country trip and on iTunes, I've seen it probably like a dozen times now because, like, I'm reminded of my narrow-mindedness of that first time. And I'm like, man, I'm so stupid. And then if you look at all of his films in the past from Brick to Brothers Bloom to Looper,

he's never done anything that's a conventional or type narrative for anything he's ever done. Right. So I think he was the perfect director to turn Star Wars on its head and give it a trajectory that, like, everything you just said, it's like it's about hope, it's about openness, it's about inclusion, it's about telling anyone. That's like the best story you can give is like, hey, you can do it too, right? Right. Killing the past, that theme of killing the past and in sort of the very specific sense that applied to the characters in the story and also the meta sense about setting yourself up in life and in art to create. something new that's meaningful to new people in a new way. I think that's awesome. So I have nothing further to add. That's why I was so, I was like, if Mallory's available, I want to like carve out this like moment in time of I have like just stupid thoughts about

the movie and now I see it clearly. So thank you for setting me straight. Listen, was there a specific like character or plotline that as you return to the film, you found one you over more? Each time I've looked at it from whether it's Po to Luke, himself, like Luke's a dork. Yeah. Right? Like, Luke would do something stupid like brushing a shoulder off. Yeah, Luke Skywalker, tough hang.

Yeah. Right. Like, and I think Poe, too, is like each character had the ability to grow. Mm-hmm. And I don't think that could have happened if they didn't. And the thing is this, like, I appreciate more that fact that Ryan and his team did this, knowing that they were going to get criticized potentially by the orthodoxy, right? And I hate, here's the, I'm so mad at, I hate orthodoxy in general.

And I was like, oh my God, I am part of this thing that I hate the most. Orthodoxity and like closed-mindedness in general. And each of these characters had like a moment of growth. And to do that in like a two-hour film with already preconceived notions about each character, I was like, man, he could have done an easy, make everyone happy. Totally. He chose to do the most difficult decision. And I don't know if that gets enough credit.

And if you're a real Star Wars fan, if you really, really truly love the Star Wars universe, you need to see the other perspective if you did not love Last Jedi from their first go-round. I totally agree. I think, you know, I don't want to sound like too cheesy here, but like I do think it's kind of a brave choice to say people are obsessive about Star Wars. I don't know if he knew that he was going to be facing like literal petitions.

But you have to know if you have any awareness of how culture is consumed in this point in our lives that you're going to face a barrage of tweets and Reddit threads and message board nonsense. And to be able to say this is the story I believe in, this I think is the best choice for not only the movie I want to make in this moment in time, but also the franchise as a whole. I think that's the other risk like when you have franchise creep in like a perpetual expanding universe like you do with Star Wars. All these different people are going to have their hands on certain adaptations and certain creations. And if they're only all thinking about their own movie or their own TV show or their own amusement park or whatever it might be, none of it will connect. And so that was the other thing that was impressive about this to me is it simultaneously functioned on its own as a standalone film. And it sets up countless possibilities that I don't think necessarily existed before. Can I tell you after multiple viewings?

The scene that I am most impressed with is when they're at the casino, which I think is a lot of people are like, I don't get. Yeah. There's a moment where they're like, wait, they're making all this money by making arms that's supplying both the rebel forces and the empire. And that moral ambiguity was like, whoa, that's in Star Wars. That's crazy. Totally. And I don't know if people are prepared to talk about that. Yeah.

I think that, again, that was one of the things about the film is like it actually moves away from a strict good versus evil trope. And I think embraces or at least ask you to think about that idea of that moral ambiguity in the gray area in between. where maybe the good people and the bad people actually exist. And certainly in this moment in time in our lives, that is worth thinking about. And I think that if a movie can get people thinking that way, then it's not only entertaining, but it's an effective piece of culture.

And that's awesome. That is awesome. So that's why I think everyone should watch it again, because if I... I know I'm not the only dummy out there that had opinions about The Last Jedi from the first initial watch, but having watched it several times,

I think it's something that I do believe it's probably to be right up there with Empire. In like 25 years, people are to look back at this and be like, oh, it's one of those things that happen in art that was misunderstood simply because it was ahead of where people actually understood themselves to be. Right, and it wasn't what they expected. And sometimes when something's not what you expect, you don't realize that you even wanted it.

Also, here's the other thing. You can still just watch it and say, holy shit, the throne room seam is incredible and the sound effect of, Holgo light speed jumping into another ship is like a transcendent moment in film. And that's okay. You can also just watch it and say Star Wars is fun. And when they ride the old speeders out for the attack and the cranberry minerals kick up into the air,

like it looks amazing and it sounds cool and it's fun. And if you want to watch it that way, that is totally fine too. There you go. Thank you. Hey, I'm going to just quickly at the end here, just channel my inner Tywin-Lannister voice. The battle is over. I have won. He says we on the show, but, you know, editorializing a bit. Thank you for setting me straight. Hey, thank you for having me.

Thank you for opening your mind and your heart. Thank you for listening to this micropod, the first that we've ever done, because it was not planned. And we did it without any idea of what we were doing whatsoever. So thank you to Mallory Rubin. And if you want more of Mallory Rubin's takes on The Last Jedi, please check out binge mode with Jason Concepcion. And later this week, we're going to have a podcast with Ryan Johnson and Karina Longworth. So please stay tuned for that.

Thank you so much.