The Press Box - Royal Rumors and the Celebrity Criticism Paradox | Jam Session

Episode Date: May 1, 2019

Meghan Markle and Prince Harry’s baby could be here any day now and internet sleuths are trying to figure out when (1:00). 'Vanderpump Rules' star Lala Kent got into a bizarre feud with 50 Cent over the weekend (10:42). A slew of celebrities took aim at cultural critics last week and we talk about the tenuous relationship between celebrities and those who write about them (23:17). Hosts: Juliet Litman and Amanda Dobbins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm Juliette Litman. I'm Amanda Davins. Hi, Amanda. What's up? Hi, Juliet. How are you? I'm glad to see you. I'm glad to see you, too.

You're wearing a lovely yellow. I'm trying. You know, I'm trying to bring the spring to Los Angeles. It seems resistant. It really is resistant. I'm not. Okay. Yeah.

What spring topics do we have on hand for today? Well, so we got to revisit the royal stuff. Yes. There actually aren't that many updates, but there's been a lot of discussion. So we need to talk about the Will thing again. We need to talk about, you know, where is the baby? And we'll talk a little bit about other Megan and Harry related stuff. We're just going to, you know, check in.

Okay. You're going to tell me about something that I know nothing about. Yes, Lala and Fafty. I can't wait to discuss. I literally don't even know. Between 50s. Okay, right. All right.

And Lala Kent of Vanderpump Rules and her boyfriend Randall Emmett of movie past films fame. Really? Yeah. Well, you know, I'm looking forward to learning. Learning and growing is an important part of life even after you've graduated from school. And then we are going to talk about something that happened last week or series of things that happened last week, which are basically about celebrities declaring war on critics. Yes. And it's a rich... We like both celebrities and critics. Yeah, it's a rich topic. So we're going to talk about that. But first, we'll kind of do like, you know, news and updates. Yes. Okay. All right. So let's do. Let's do. We like, Let's just start with the Will stuff. So last week, for reasons, I'm not totally clear about, the Prince William cheating rumors started recirculating. I think they started recirculating because he went to New Zealand solo for a humanitarian trip. And he met with the survivors of the shooting, the recent shooting in New Zealand. And part of like the keyweed tradition is like the greeting is you go like forehead to forehead, nose to nose, basically. And I think for some reason people didn't understand what they were looking at.

and they saw those photos and thought it was like somehow tied to will cheating plus he was without Kate. I'm pretty sure. Interesting. Born out of ignorance. I think. Yeah.

That makes sense. At the same time, Kate appeared at an event solo with Harry. Yes. And man, was she wearing a great coat? She looked great and they strode in together

and both looked happy and like we're above the drama. But it was noticeable that William wasn't there. It was noticeable that Megan wasn't there. And I guess people just kind of started paying attention. Yes.

And that Harry and Kate moment is important because some people use that as like, oh, evidence the baby is not here because Harry is making appearances. Right. However, I have many parent friends, as do you. And often one parent is like very available right after the baby is born because like the baby sleeps. There's not only what you should do. Like the mom stays home. But I have many dad friends who just like went back to work. And they're just like, yeah, that work.

It's pretty common. It's also, it's not like he's going to a full-time job. He's showing up for two hours here and there. Yeah. Yeah, he gets picked up as home. Yes. He's in like an hour and 15 minutes. Does the event goes home?

Probably the time that the baby's sleeping. Yeah. So just to sum up the Will rumors stuff, there's nothing new to add. We talked about this like almost a month ago at this point. Yeah. We'll recirculate that podcast. But if you've got questions, concerns, I think it's all contained there. Science seemed like something's up was our verdict.

Yes. It's just there's so much chatter in the tabloid universe about if Will cheats. and what is the state of the relationships between the Fab Four, as many refer to them, Kate, Megan, Harry, and Will. There has to be some strife because there's just so much conversation about it. Exactly. Where there's smoke, there's fire. Right. But we don't know what that strife is.

Don't know if he cheats. Right. Moving on to the baby. Yes, onto the baby. So we were promised of royal baby in late April. This today is May first. It is. In the words of Insink, it's going to be May.

In fact, it is May. And there's no baby, there's no official baby confirmation, there's no photos, there's no indication that there is a baby here yet. Okay. However, I have long believed that the baby was, by longing me in the last two weeks, have felt the baby was born and just was being kept private. Yeah. So Harry and Megan did announce that they would be doing this slightly differently. They weren't going to do what Caden will do. The baby was going to be born at Windsor, which is outside London instead of in London. They weren't going to do the thing where they walk out on the stairs and, you know, hold the baby so Cura Knightley can't get mad at them. That's unfair. You know what, Curenaily made a decent point with that, just for the record, that they were going to spend some time with the baby solo before they made the announcement. So what

you're saying is totally plausible. And I think I agree with you. The only thing to keep in mind here is that first babies sometimes are late. Yes. Yes. I've heard that as well. Yeah. But I don't know. I just feel like they're so quiet on the topic that it's almost like suspicious. And then Harry is like, I don't know, I just feel like he's kind of, he went to that event last week. I feel like he's, he's around, which is almost like a red herring to me of like normalcy. The things he showed up to. So he showed up to like a service for Anzac Day, which is, you know, some, it's a UK version of Memorial Day or, you know, one of these things. I believe it honors. troops and historical situations. So it's kind of like if you're the head of the royal family, if you're

in the royal family, you got to do that. It's like obligatory. And then he showed up to Easter service, which was also the queen's birthday, which like I don't really think you can skip grandma's birthday if she's the queen and it's also Easter. They're like pretty obligatory events. Yes. So I agree that it doesn't necessarily mean that he's not at home. Right. He's as you said, doing his job, basically. Yeah. Of being a public prince. In total, generous, like, this is one day of work.

Right. In total, what we're talking about. Yeah, cumulative hours. Yeah. And then today, the queen went to visit Frogmore Cottage in Windsor. I think she went over the weekend. Oh, over the weekend. It was when she was, like, that Easter weekend.

Gotcha. Which Kyah thinks means that the baby's already here and she was visiting the baby. I think it could also just mean, like, she was in the neighborhood and was going to, because they just moved and, you know, she's trying to. I don't know. I think that's giving them a lot of credit as normal people. That's like the kind of thing your mom would do. Like, oh, in the neighborhood, I'm going to drop in. But does the Queen of England do that?

I'm not sure. I guess that's true. I don't know. I agreed that the baby's probably here, and they're just keeping it a secret. Which I like support. In the meantime, on their Instagram, they've like, mental health has been a cause of William and Harry and Kate and now Megan for a while. And so they've, like, rededicated the Sussex Royal Instagram to mental health,

which is, like, cool. And apparently, like, in the middle of the night, UK time, they're updating with, like, montages, you know, collages about mental health, which, you know, you do you. It's not how I use Instagram, but it's also, like, a valid, uplifting way to use it. But as a result of this, they also unfollowed everyone but, like, mental health professional accounts, which means that they unfollowed Kate and Will's account. Right. Which I think is pure aggression. I think it's really funny. I just like, I understand, we've done this thing of, you know, people unfollow or delete their Instagram accounts.

They kind of repurpose them for a set amount of time for promotional reasons. Like, musicians do this all the time. Like, I get it. But I still think that you can follow one other, like a couple other accounts, which are your family accounts without compromising your public mission. And I just think that this is like an aggression. That said, it is really funny to me in all the coverage of how this Instagram account works. Like, the tabloid coverage will act like it's definitely Megan or Harry writing it. I know.

And I just like, there was definitely not. There was like a whole theme about how she was spelling words the American way versus the British way. Doing XO instead of XX. Yeah. And I was just like, okay, friends, like they have many social media managers. This is how it works. I know. But I also think a social media manager should know that you,

especially at this moment when there are all these rumors about fights between them, that you just stay following the other account. It's not that hard. Why do you have to do that? It is kind of funny. I like it. I hope at a certain point they're just like, we're just going to fuck with people.

Like I hope this is like malicious towards, not necessarily their family member, but like their audience. Or not malicious, but conniving gets the better way of putting it? I guess so. I mean, that seems like a sure way to like not be a duke and duchess anymore.

You know, because like literally the only thing that is keeping these people in any sort of, not even power, but is keeping them in their palaces, as people being like, we're obsessed with you? People caring, yeah. Yeah, we'll talk about this more later in the podcast, but the idea of how you relate to your audience is pretty important when you're a celebrity.

It's really true. I don't think that these people, given their tenuous hold on wealth and status, are in a position to be like, screw you guys. It's true. Maybe they will. I mean, it would be fascinating for us. I think that celebrities are just getting smarter

about Instagram in general, because there's this whole thing that happened with Lala and 50 Cent and Randall that there's been a lot of speculation also around their social media essentially. Okay. And I thought that Lala and Randall had broken up because she deleted all these posts. Okay. Hold on. All right. All right. All right. So this is a great segue. Yeah. I just need you to explain to me who these people are first. I will. But let me just say, I thought that they had broken up because she deleted every photo of him. But then she did a story that indicated they were still together very, very harshly. So I think that's,

celebrities are starting to fuck with us, their Instagram accounts. And I like it. Keep me on my toes. I like it too. I like it for content. Yes. There's like, you know, and this is another thing we'll talk about this. Like, as a celebrity, you do have to keep people interested. You have to keep kind of your own narrative going. And the smart ones know that. But it's a fine line between keeping it going and then alienating people. I completely agree. Okay. So tell me who these people are. Okay. So I know who 50 is. Honestly, I was talking to a friend about this this morning. It's a little hard to explain who Lala Kent is if you don't watch Vanderpump Rules. But I'm going to try. I believe in you. It's not hard to explain who she is. Hard to explain her essence and, like, what she is.

If anyone is up to the task, it is you, Juliet-Lythead. Thank you. Lala Kent is a hostess at Sir, ostensibly, a hostess at Sir. It's a sexy, unique restaurant at the center of Vanderpombril's owned by Lisa Vanderpom. Okay. I am familiar with all of those proper nouns. I think that she joined in season five, maybe four. She's been on the show. We're just finishing up season seven here. She's been on for a few years. She's a firebrand. She gets into fights. She uses really aggressive language. and she's always made a big deal about her relationship. At first, she wouldn't say the name of her boyfriend because he was married, so she didn't

want to say his name. So she would just be like, my man, my man this, my man of that. And then secondly, she's very open about how he's her sugar daddy and like provides private planes for her. She's openly admitted that she had sex with him and then got a part in a movie. She openly talks about how he just buys her all this stuff. And crucially, she was like his, they were having an affair because he was married when they first met. So there's all this stuff.

She has like, this season, she like takes her friends on a trip to Solvang from L.A. And they fly in a private jet. Like it's like a 40 minute plane ride. Right. Not even. No, I feel like that's like 20 minutes? 20 minutes, yeah. Like, do you even get up to altitude?

No. There's no Wi-Fi available. If traffic is working for you, you're there in under two hours. Yeah. Yeah. I'm driving. It's like not even worth the hassle. So anyway.

She's just very flamboyant about this relationship. Can I ask two follow-up questions? Yes. Is she positioned in the show as a villain? She was at first, but then everyone started to like her. Okay. And is she, and everything you just recounted at all self-aware? A little bit.

Okay. But I think she genuinely, like, wants to be taken care of like this. And she also, like, has always flaunted her body, and she's very hot. And she also is, like, she has breast implants and talks about it. But, like, she uses her body as, like, as like a tool. Okay. But in a way that is

she's owning it or that is kind of pathetic? Somewhere in between. Okay. Here, I mean, would I like her? I don't know. I don't know.

Because there's like, I can see a version of this. Do you like, Lala? I do. I think she has redeemable quality. She used to, she for a while, she kind of like took the moral high ground.

But then she became like obsessed with like supporting women. But meanwhile, talks about like just want to to have a sugar daddy and talks about like, you know, sex or roles and whatnot. Logical inconsistency. Yes. I don't like logical inconsistencies.

And then Randall looks like he could be buried to one of the real housewives in New Jersey. And he is one of the directors of the film Gotti. Wow. And he worked at like a production company that was acquired by MoviePass. Wow. So he works like Movie Pass films. He just like screams scam to me. And so.

Yes. That sounds everything you just said. is a synonym for scam. And so what happened is 50 cents started Instagramming about Van Pumper rules and like kind of coming at Lala. And it turned out that Randall,

Rand, as Lala refers them, owed 50 cent, $1 million. Okay. And apparently 50 had Fitty had tried to get Randall to pay, had gotten Randall a job on power so that he could work to pay off his loan.

Okay. Make money to pay 50 cent back and he still wasn't paying him back. So what has, happened was 50 cent started posting receipts and so over the weekend he got into a fight with do you like receipts he started got into a fight with randall and lala and they were all using social media against each other and 50 cent just like totally dunked on randall by sharing screenshots of their conversation and the big joke i kept saying fafty because in the in the texts

randall had a had a um a typo that said fafty instead of 50 okay and it was just really funny and like, it was just fucking funny. He said, like, Randall texted him. I'm sorry again. I'm really sorry. I said, I'm sorry, Fafty. I'm heading to the emergency room. I'm not doing well.

Please don't text me anymore. I'm sorry for everything. T. This is too much for me. I'm so hurt and not feeling well. Now my ex is fucking with me after your post. This is very bad for me on all levels. Going to ER to make sure I'm not having a heart attack.

Please, 50, no more. And so 50 is just receiving these and then posting Yeah, and posted on his Instagram, and he just wants to be paid back. And then Randall did pay him back. Incredible. And so 50 took it all down. Amazing. But you have to wonder, how did Randall get $1 million?

That was going to be my follow-up question. I don't know. And I worry. And I just want to say, Randall, bad decisions that he may make based on the fact that seems like he had a very longstanding debt took 50 cent. Rightfully, was afraid. 50 cent famously survived 21 gunshot wound. to the chest.

So I also would not want to fuck with 50. He's a tough dude. He's a complex man. He's tough. He survives. Yes. And I just would not want to be feuding with someone who was able to survive 21 gunshot wounds. And it's just the whole thing was so funny.

And I think that also the Vanderpump rules lends itself to like so much absurdity. The fact that a genuine celebrity and businessman such as Curtis himself kind of intersected with this is hilarious. Yeah, it's really interesting that they are sort of Kardashianing. Yes. Kardashianing a bit in that they are starting to transcend the closed universe of Vanderpump Rules. So even though you won't respect me when I say this, as you have clarified on multiple

podcasts, I have still not seen an episode of VaynerPump Rules. Not out of a version. I'm sure it would be great. It's just like I'm seven seasons behind. Yeah. It's not. The seasons also run really long. Right.

It started, this season seven started in December. And I'm not a great reality watcher. I just haven't learned how to do it in the way that you have. So I just, it just feels insurmountable for me at this point. But I'm curious. Everyone I know, I respect everyone who is watching and has thoughts about it. It's clearly like succeeding as television, which it's hard to make good reality television. I think the dream is ending because they've all, they, okay, so several of them just moved to the valley.

And because of people are terrible, their homes have been like. leaked, like, their addresses and everything. And, of course, I looked up where they all are and looked at their house listings. And they're all, like, within, like, three square miles of each other. And by them all, I mean, there's three couples and then, or four, Kristen included, there's four core couples of the show who all moved to the valley, like, right near each other. But so much of the show is the fact they basically lived in a tiny section of L.A. and, like, never left it.

and two couples even lived in the same building, wanted to live around the corner. Like, they just, I just think that even in so close proximity, they're, they, they, they, must have had their contract structured that if they got to a certain number of episodes, they would cash out or, like, get some kind of residuals, and they must have gotten there. And as a result, all had cash to buy these $2 million homes in the valley. Right. I think also you've talked about the appeal of the show is that it is kind of, they're all friends and it's like a closed universe. Closed universe.

Yeah. And it does even seem beyond the home, so that's like a physical manifestation of it, that they are venturing outside the universe. Yeah, they're too famous. Exactly. Which is interesting because then they kind of. They're feuding with Fafty. Like we don't talk about reality stuff as much unless they, on this show, unless they come up to a certain level and they become like actually famous. And the Kardashians did that. And I think like the Hills girls to an extent did that.

And now it really does seem like the VaynerPump Rules people have done that. But I'm curious like what happens when whether they can sustain like fame outside of the bubble that created it. I don't know. They don't have a Chris Jenner. They don't have even a Kim Kardashian. It's just a very, it's like they're famous for being friends with each other and for also like sort of living a very straightforward absurd life. Whereas the Kardashians are living a very lavish over the top absurd life. And it's almost like the fact that they're like such familiar characters. So much of like what made the show amazing was like they lived in these like trash apartments when they clearly could afford something else.

And now they can't now they're doing that and just like changes the show. It seems a bit more like Jersey Shore than Kardashians, just like built on a group of friends. And then they become very famous, but can't really figure out the next channels. And Tom and Tom on the show, now they don't work at Sir anymore. And that's like kind of a big deal. They're not even faking it. They're just making money off the merch that you buy. Tom Tom, yeah.

Julie, I was wearing a lovely shirt the other day from Tom Tom. I thought it was cool. Thank you. I appreciate it. So, yeah, so that's the story with Fafty. I was on Team Fafty. I will say, like getting in a feud with 50 cent is definitely one way to keep your profile. very high. So in that sense, they seem to have survival instincts. That is true. That's true.

It's possible that they like see that they planted this. Yeah, I was going to say because if it resolved so quickly and suddenly had a million dollars. I mean, it hadn't occurred to me. I believe it was so pure. I'm really sorry. My love of the story. No, that's interesting. Did they plant it? Huh. I have to think about that. Okay. Can't put it past them because he's able to pay them back. But I, you know, that is, that's the question that has not been answered. The only thing is that like other people like Jacks were like, cool, man, just bring on the publicity, like, in a way that actually did seem earnest. Huh, I need to think about it.

This was planted. Wow, you just really blew my mind. I'm sorry. No, I appreciate it. It's something that you enjoy, so I don't want to burst your bubble. You're right, though. I wonder. Okay.

Well, we'll monitor the situation, or we won't because maybe they won't. Like, if they become famous, we'll talk about them more. And if they don't, then we won't. Okay. Let's talk about today's sponsors as I mull this over. Today's podcast is also brought to you by the Mac Powderkiss Lipstick. Mac Powderkiss Lipstick is the moisture matte lipstick of your dreams. It's matte reinvented.

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Philo is available on Roku, iOS, Fire TV, Android TV, and Apple TV. So to start your free trial, visit philo.tv.com. That's phil. TV slash jam. If you go now, you'll get 15% off your first month. Alrighty, moving on. Back into the celebrity online universe and away from the Vanderpump universe, last week, there was many tips between celebrities and critics. Yeah, it was an interesting moment where celebrities just decided it was time to gang up on critics.

And by critics, we mean professionally employed. Yes, our colleague. Cultural critics as opposed to like, people being mean online. Yes. And that's an important distinction to keep in mind throughout this whole conversation because there is a distinction and there is a job in like a tradition going back literally thousands of years of criticism and talking about art and really, like, and politics and anything in a critical way. Not critical as a negative, but applying the art of criticism. Sure. To something. And then there are

just like people with Twitter accounts. And that also has a ton of value and in a lot of ways has really leveled the playing field in a way that maybe criticism 50 years ago hasn't. But there is a difference between people who are pursuing some thought and art form and then like people who are name calling online. Sure. So, though the way that we use the internet often flattens the two. And I think that some of this is what happened is that celebrities,

started kind of flattening the distinction. So we'll just start in order. Okay, great. Lizzo. Lizzo. A musician. A musician. Okay.

It was okay. All right. She has been sort of a, this is interesting because she's been a blog and music industry darling. Yes. There have just been so many pieces about her and her music and personality. And she's been on the cover of magazines. She's just been, people really love her.

And she's had a pretty extremely positive critical experience with, with everyone who does this for a living, kind of acting as an advocate. Sure. And then a review of her album ran on pitchfork, as often happens, that was mixed. And Lizzo tweeted,

people who review, review and scare quotes, albums and don't make music themselves should be unemployed. People didn't take that super well. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

Like, I guess we're on the media side of this, but like there's just so many rock critics in the very typical Lester Bang's way who were like really like interesting and like thoughtful people and like art doesn't exist in a vacuum. And the purpose of criticism is to get people to engage with art

more thoroughly and think about it in different ways. It takes it really seriously. This to me just read like someone who doesn't have a lot of experience sort of showing their feelings in public which is not a move. Don't do it.

Just don't, don't wind in public. I completely agree. And also she... You have the right to disagree and you have the right to say in public I was disappointed by this or I don't like this. How dare you of it all is like just not a great move. Right.

Because celebrities especially in this era are supposed to be just like us. Right. So as soon as you're doing, how dare you, you're on the wrong side. It's true. It's not a good luck. Not a great look. The next one was Ariana Grande. Yes.

Who... She went after bloggers. So Alison Herman wrote a great piece for The Ringer about all of this. It really was great. I'm just going to read from this because it's like really quite complicated. And Allison has the details. Ariana Grande responded on Wednesday to an e-news segment criticizing Justin Bieber's cameo at her Coachella set. Which was weekend two because she couldn't get four or five in sinkers to come back. Right. So e-news is criticizing Justin, the fact that Justin Bieber was, okay. This is what her since deleted tweet reads.

one day everybody that works at all them blogs will realize how unfulfilled they are and purposeless what they're doing is. I can't wait for them to feel lit inside. So, I mean, style-wise, this is great. I can't wait for them to feel lit inside is already a meme. She's so good at the internet. She's really, really good at the internet. And this is also hilarious because an e-news segment is not a blog. And also, it's not as perfect.

It's just, she's wrong. Like, this is not, she's, like, kind of criticizing nothing and it doesn't really matter. And she's just, like, whining in public. But she's Ariana Grande, and she is, like, allowed to do that. And she does it with such panache that it's just funny. Yeah. Like, this is a real case study in how you say something is as important as what you say. Sure.

Because it's like, Ariana, what are you talking about? Like, people are allowed to make fun of Justin B, you know. Sure. Totally. This is all valid, but also, like, no one cares and what you said is funny. The funny thing is, working in digital media is really hard. And, like, part of it is soul-sucking because you are online all the time.

It's part of the job is, like, being hyper attuned to what's going on. Like, we put this podcast together fairly quickly each week because we're just, like, online all the time. So we got topics to pull from. And, like, that is really hard. But it's not because, like, you're a bad person or whatever. It's because, like, well-documented, it's difficult to be on social media all the time. And it breeds a different kind of mindset and lifestyle.

but it's like disrespectful of what people's jobs are. I hate when work is disrespected. It's true. And I think also in this particular case, Arianna Grande has often benefited from the blogs. Like she is someone who has super stardom is in a large part internet fueled because young people, that's how they consume her and she's really good at it. And, you know, she makes a music video with a bunch of rom-com references and it's dissected

on blogs and blogs have advocated for her and are part of the reason. So it's one of those things. things where it's like you can't pick and choose, you know? And so I think there, a lot of people who have been upset about this feel like they spend a lot of time advocating and supporting and investing in something. And I do think, as a celebrity, you've got to be aware of when you're benefiting versus, like, you have to take both sides. Yeah. You know, it's like part of the price of being in public. And you want to, especially want to make sure that you're not dumping on the people who have been rooting for you because then you don't have fans anymore and then you're not a

celebrity. That's literally how it works. It's what we were talking about with Harry and Megan. Yes. Agreed. And also she like, she makes music videos for the internet. Like she makes, she makes content for a very online audience. And so to like dismiss part of that economy is like unfair. Yeah. I mean, I just think in general, it's not smart if you're in a position of power to dismiss the people who put you in power. Yeah. Just like survival wise. And that goes like across the board, not even just celebrities. But also the thing about celebrity is like, don't mind in public. I really feel that throughout. It's just like it's a form of weakness.

And you don't want to show weakness because you already, you're in a position to succeed. Right. It's like it's the Streisand effect. People were talking a lot about that last week, which if you're not familiar, Barbara Streisand got really mad because some random photographer posted a photo of her home on the internet. And I think like literally 42 people had ever clicked on the page until she filed a lawsuit. and then thousands, if not millions of people, clicked on it once she filed the lawsuit. It's just kind of like, it's not a great strategy.

Then there was some Michael Chee stuff, which, like, we don't need to get into that. Do you want to get into that? He on Instagram, like, just he makes a point of... He tries to dunk on these writers. And he's usually pretty aggressive. And it's like, if you follow Michael Chey on Instagram, or if you watch SNL, and that's your brand of content. Like, cool.

It doesn't really matter to me. Yeah. Yeah. It's not a great look, but, you know, whatever. Yeah. And then when Allison wrote her piece, he, like, screenshots it and, like, made, not even knowing her, made fun of the idea of her, not even her. Right.

Which is, like, which is, like, predictable. And, you know, there is, people like to see other people be dunked on. People like to see people taking a stand. We see that in our political system to negative effects all of the time. So I get why he does it. If that's his bag. or whatever. I just don't think it's that interesting.

The Olivia Munn one is interesting. Yes. So this was the final one. And she posted a screenshot of two, it's not Notes app. What would you say this is? I think it's like a Microsoft Word document that she opened as a PDF on her phone and then screenshot it. Yeah. And she had done some photoshopping as well, so there was a photo element.

Yeah. And she posted it to Twitter with the caption, a short. essay on the ugly behaviors of the fug girls. Yes. So this was about go fug yourself, which is like one of the really early blogs. I think it must have started mid to late 2000s, not that long after Perez Hilton and Laney and the first rise of really, really ugly gossip websites. And the fug girls have always written about clothes and clothes only.

Specifically from official appearances. They're not even like, like they, it's like sometimes right about, I guess they used at paparazzi photos more? Yeah, and I think that they evolved. They have stopped. And now they're like kind of the online version of the fashion police. But they mostly talk about red carpet appearances and like when it seems like someone is kind of like a walking billboard. Yes. And they have always walked a really fine line and kept it to the idea of clothes and image making and this multi-billion dollar industry that all celebrities participate in. And they were never like Perez Hilton, who was like literally drawing drops of cement on people, you know, and with his crude Photoshop. So they've been doing this for a very long time.

And Olivia Munn wrote an essay about a quote essay, that's her word, in Amine, about how they're mean and how what they do is ugly and unfair. and this didn't go over very well for Olivia Munn. No. People really responded with a lot of gusto. And I think that's partially because she has a lot of ill will against her out there already. It's hard to exactly trace how and why it happened. But I don't feel like Olivia Munn's ever been like that deeply respected as a celebrity or as an actress. Though I have to say, I quite liked her on the newsroom. Yeah, she's great.

And I think she's really good in Magic Mike or Magic Mike too, whichever one she was in. Yeah. She's the girlfriend in the beginning. She, I feel like ever since she was on attack of the show, she was, like, kind of, like, dismissed. And that's not entirely surprising if you kind of know about some of the, like, online culture that comes with some video game and sort of, like, more of the, like, online esoteric pop culture world. And she was, like, very, very much dismissed from the beginning by, I think, a certain demographic. And then on the other end of things, I think she was, like, really objectified as, like, a hot girl. And never really kind of afforded.

much respect as an actress or as like just like a woman. And I'm not even sure I respect for that much. And now she's really active on Instagram, which I think also does not help. But she just sort of like never really found her footing as like a serious celebrity. And I think that as a result, when she tried to like, when she posted this like personal essay essentially, it wasn't met well. No. I'll read one quote from it. Okay. Heather Cox and Jessica Morgan, who are the Fug Girls, probably won't like this, but they'll just have to learn that when you come for anyone publicly, you've now entered the public domain and you've chosen your opponent.

So I'll give you the same advice we get. When you're in the public eye, it comes with the territory. I think that's true. And we talk about that a lot where especially if you are making money off of being famous, then it comes with the territory that you're going to be open to.

In the same way that you're asking for people's attention and profiting off of that, then you will also have to reap some of the negative benefits of people's attention. Now, there are rules to that. You and I talk a lot about rules of engagement. Sure. You can't make fun of, you know, certain people's, like, actual physical appearances or, I mean,

you have to be respectful. But there is a difference between, like, fashion is art and an industry, and people are making, like, billions of dollars off of it. And it does factor into how someone's taken seriously. And, you know, there are industries built around the red carpet and built around now Instagram and influencers are going to be, like, selling things directly. like there is money in this. And my general theory has been like if there's money in the game and you're making money off of it,

then you need to expect it. Sure. And I guess that's, I mean, I don't diminish Olivia Munn's right to be like, I don't agree with how the fug girls are doing this. I think she's just kind of, she's confusing it. She accuses them of things they don't do, like making fun of weight or physical appearance, which they don't do. No, I don't. And she's kind of, like, confusing and using, like, actual legitimate thoughts and campaigns to further her own personal agenda, which, like, I'm not down with. Yeah, I agree with you.

And, you know, I think also, we talked a little bit about this. I do think there has to be a lane for criticism as a – I mean, there doesn't have to be a lane, but I would like to live in a world where people can write thoughtfully about stuff. Sure. And, you know, it's like the great struggle of the Internet at this point is that, like, we're still trying to be. to carve out a space where people can disagree thoughtfully, and it's increasingly hard. And we, it's, like, I get it. And I think you and I have also been guilty at some points of reflexively, you know, not following this thoughtful. It gets catty on this podcast sometimes. Sure. Of course. And, you know, everyone's human. And I think, like, the positive side of the internet is that

people's various viewpoints and people's expression and that that instant reaction is much easier to express and there's fun and joy in that. There is that kind of like rush of endorphins. I still believe that there can be a world in which we can talk thoughtfully about things. I agree with you. I think this is complicated this particular instance. And this is kind of connects to Lizzo as well. But I think part of this instance of Olivia Munn is it so aesthetics-based.

Like she's being like what the fug girls do is they comment on how people look and not necessarily if they're like bad or skinny or. ugly or pretty or their makeup or their weight or whatever, but it's about their aesthetic presentation. And I just think for all people, and particularly women, and particularly an actress, how you look is like so sensitive. And also for someone like Olivia Munn, like central to her livelihood. Of course. And so it just makes it like a different kind of conversation. And I think part also like part of the whole Lizzo conversation is that she's about like body positivity and she represents like a different type of celebrity. And she represents like a different type

of celebrity. And I think that that like it wasn't explicit in either of these cases, but I do think there's like a kind of like a representation of women in media where it's almost like it feels like lines are crossed as a result of like either Olivia Munn being known for being like really hot and like

maybe not wanting that reputation or wanting to justifyably like wanting to be like given more depth in the public eye than just like what she looks like. And similarly for Lizzo, like there's like she's almost like an avatar for body positivity and like a type of online discourse that's like extremely positive as a way to counteract

so much of like the kind of standard negativity that I'm sure she still gets all the time for being the weight that she is. And I think that like with with women, it's also like there's even more of that conversation. Yeah. Of course. It's like really hard to navigate on both so, both as the celebrity and as the critic. Of course. Like we're taught both that our appearances are number one value and also that we're supposed to ignore that at all times to try to transcend in. And it's like very complicated. I also just, like, if I were Lizzo or Olivia Munn and either of these things happen, I personally would be mortified and I would want you like dig a trench and then live in it forever. And, you know, I get it. I understand the reaction. I think, I do kind of think that some of it is just,

especially when you are, you know, posing for photographs and creating this whole machine that is dependent on your image, you kind of got to be prepared for it. Yeah. Even if it's really tough, it's, and, like, I understand that it's really tough. And I think that it's just not a good look to be complaining about it in this way. I don't really, in public, I just don't think it achieves anything. Because I don't think it's, like, making the dialogue better. Yeah, I agree with you. And I don't think it's furthering their cause.

Maybe it feels good like an outlet. You know, maybe it's useful because it is a reminder to everyone. Like, we have to, you can criticize, but you have to do it thoughtfully. Yeah. You know, just to, like, speak with purpose, which we, you know, try to do. So I guess that's useful. But the other thing is just kind of Lizzo and Olivia Munn and certainly Arietta Grande are more powerful, like famous and powerful than the people that they're picking on. And it, you know, it's checks and balances, I guess. I agree. I agree. Important punctuation mark on

this conversation is that Diplo, of all the people in the world, tweeted, critics got to eat too. And, you know, that's, I do think it's kind of easier for someone like him to say that where, first of all, first of allotted as, like, being a genius all the time. And even if many people have a problem with him because of how he went after Taylor Swift and, like, said she had like a bony butt or whatever many years ago, he has the benefit of, like, being known as like, O Diplo, he makes, like, hit songs. Yes. It's just like, oh. Now he can be a weirdo in public, which he is, like, regularly on Instagram. I mean, it's funny weird, but. Yes. And do I love the song that he's produced? Yes. Absolutely.

Climax is probably my favorite song of the last 10 years. Like, honestly, the Usher song is so good. But, like, it's easier for someone like that who's, like, regularly being praised for his, like, successes with everything else being kind of like an asterisk. Whereas with all of these women, they're just subjected to a different level, a different type of discourse. It's true. But thanks to Diplo for us seeing the other side. That's true. All the same.

Anyway, I don't think anything is going to change any time. soon. We have a version of this conversation every once in a while, and I think it's a great one to have, and I'm sure we will talk about it again. I agree. Be smart and, you know, be smart, everybody at all times. I agree. And also, let's get a newsroom reboot. I'd love to get some Sloan Stevens. Where are you? Okay. That's Juliet's take of the week. Amanda, as always, wonderful talking to you. Likewise. And thanks again to Mac and Philo.