The Press Box - Sam Altman and Trump’s War Room. Plus, ESPN Draft Guru Mel Kiper Jr.

Episode Date: April 10, 2026

Today on The Press Box, Bryan and Joel start by talking about two big pieces that have dropped this week. First is a story from the New York Times taking us inside the White House and how Trump led the United States into war with Iran. The second piece is from the New Yorker, about OpenAI’s CEO Sam Altman (13:00). Lastly, they discuss the news and drama surrounding pictures released of NFL insider Dianna Russini and New England Patriots head coach Mike Vrabel hanging out poolside in Arizona (21:13). Then, they are joined by ESPN’s draft expert Mel Kiper Jr (30:50). They discuss how he got into draft coverage, handling criticism, and much more. Then in Joel’s lightning round, Mel says who some of his favorite prospects have been at each position he’s ever scouted (1:04:35). Hosts: Bryan Curtis and Joel AndersonProducers: Bruce Baldwin, Donald LoBianco, Isaiah Blakely, and Sarah Reddy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, media consumers. Welcome to Press Box Thursday. It's Brian Curtis. It's Joel Anderson. It's producers Isaiah Blakely and Bruce Baldwin. Coming up on the press box, what did we think of the New York Times' big story on how Donald Trump took the United States to war?

And what do we think of the New Yorker's big story on Sam Altman? And what did we think of the story everybody's talking about in our text threats? Mike Vrable and Diana Rusini. Plus, ESPN's Mel Kuiper Jr. is going to join us to talk about the early days of covering the NFL draft. But, Joel, I want to begin with two big hunks of quality journalism.

Okay. Wow. Hunks. Hunk number one. The New York Times' story How Trump Took the U.S. to War with Iran by Jonathan Swan and Maggie Haberman. It landed on Tuesday while we were all waiting to see if Trump would end Iranian civilization as we know it. That's right. Would you make of the piece?

Just a wave of like really ugly nostalgia for the time. This, the Maggie Haberman Palace intrigue story. You know, I just felt like we haven't had one of the, I felt like we haven't had one of the. I felt like we haven't had one of those in a while, right? We haven't because they've been on book leave. They've been on book leave. And so, yeah, once again, I'm just like, oh, yeah, we're back in a conference room with Donald Trump. And we're hearing almost exclusively from a bunch of people who would like to be like,

not really my fault, you know? Like, I feel like that's always sort of the angle of the Maggie Hayburn thing. That dude is crazy. He got convinced. pulled the wool over his eyes and we could not change his mind. It was just a very familiar form of journalism. And I'm glad that it's available to us, that we have it to read, because it's just, again, it provides some access to at least some version of events that most of us would never wouldn't have otherwise. But the thing I, previously, I thought that this kind of reporting

would change people's minds about things. I thought it might move opinion polling. I might affect what happened at the ballot box. Maybe it will this year. Maybe this is the year that that finally happens, but it has not happened so far. So I'm just kind of interested to see how it resonates with people and how, you know, yeah, like how these sort of revelations impact people. What did you think? Well, first off, I was amazed at all the journalistic flexing that went on in this piece. Yeah. Yeah. Because there's a lot of great information in here about BB Netanyahu and the presentation he's making to Donald Trump. Well, people were sitting behind him and so that was it. Yeah. I mean, the, the

seating chart flex? Yeah. We're not just inside the room with Donald Trump and his associates. We're going to tell you where everyone's sitting. I'll give you a little taste of it here if people have not read this story. Susie Wiles, the Whitehouse Chief of Staff, set at the far end of the table. Secretary of State Marco Rubio dot, dot, dot, has taken his regular seat. Defense Secretary Pete Hanksith and General Dan Cain, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff,

who generally sat together in such meetings were on one side. Joining them was John Radcliffe, the CIA director. and on and on. And then here's the kicker. The gathering had been kept deliberately small to guard against leaks. I mean, this is, I mean, again, this kind of happens in some version in every presidential administration because there's just so many independent people, power hungry people, gossipy people, whatever.

And so, like, there's always just going to be leaks because that's how administrations work. But it's just funny. like Donald Trump don't have nobody close to him who feels obligated to like defend him in private. You know what I mean? Like you never, I just, what is the really good, man, you know, really behind the scenes, Donald Trump, man, he's a lovely guy, you know, and he's really smart, really thoughtful. That's the, you never get that. Or maybe I've just haven't read human events, the human events website lately, a daily storm or something.

But other than that, I have not, I mean, it just feels like everybody around him is getting if you're a report. If you've got Maggie Haberman's name or Jonathan Swan's name, of course, like these people are getable one way or another. And that's the irony, right? We hate the press. The press is evil. The press should not have the ability to have a workspace inside the Pentagon. We will also tell the press exactly where we were sitting when we were making this momentous decision to go to war. Do you think Trump talks to them after something like? Because, I mean, his relationship with Maggie Haberman is also really interesting, of course, right? Fascinating.

Yeah. It could be its own documentary or something. I don't know. But I don't... He does not really go after her every now and again. He will call her dishonest or do, you know, the real fake news or whatever. And I know that she's got access to him because he was a longtime New York Times reporter. And, you know, Donald Trump has been a famous New York figure since the early 70s or whatever.

But she continues to get away with him. this and that he's about as chill as he ever can be about this sort of stuff. Right? It's just fascinating that she's able to continue to do this, but that is what makes her one of the most valuable reporters in the country. Well, we can talk about this more when the book comes out this summer.

But, I mean, it is Donald Trump's relationship with the press in microcosm. Yeah. Maggie Haberman. How dare you report the news, Maggie Haberman, in the newspaper, and then I will also keep talking to you. Or people close to me. we'll keep talking to you.

Yeah. I mean, that's what it is. I mean, to me, actually, the more, the more interesting part of this particular story is the J.D. Vance part of it. Okay. Because it sure seems like J.D. Vance or somebody very, very close to J.D. Vance was trying to make sure that we all knew that he was opposed to war and Iran. He wasn't, first of all, he wasn't there.

Could get back in time for this meeting. It was Azerbaijan. Yeah. So, you know, sort of the adult was. in the room that day, sort of about it. And then, yeah, it's like, hey, I don't know what the hell is going on, but he thought, you know, the JD Vance, JD Vance didn't want nothing to do with this shit, right?

Yeah, so, again, all these guys, all these folks are just gossips, man, and they're all preemptively trying to protect their reputation. This is a great way to do it. Like, it is really, like, to participate in the Maggie Haberman, Jonathan Swan, TikTok or whatever, is like a, you know, a way of, like being able to ensure that, hey, whatever anybody else says out there, this is, this,

I don't, I didn't have as much to do with this as you thought I did. But isn't J.D. Vance playing an incredibly dangerous game? Yeah, well, I mean, because, you know, Trump kind of called for other people to, uh, lynch his previous vice president. So who knows how it could go as if he, if he thinks of Vance is, but I mean, be honest, Brian, it's going to end badly one way or another. Like this, I mean, that's not a media criticism, but that is just, It ends badly for everyone in the Trump world. Everybody in Trump world, it leaves worse for it.

So he's next. This is his way of trying to control the narrative because at least right now, legally, he can run for it. He is the person in the White House who can legally assume the White House in 2028. And so this is a good way to position that, right? I just want to read two sentences here that are illustrate the point, I think. Yeah. One is what Dan Kane, chairman of the Joint Chiefs, thinks about Iran. And one is what J.D.

Vance thinks about Iran. Just listen to these two exercises in newswriting. Okay. At no point during the deliberations did the chairman directly tell the president that war with Iran was a terrible idea, though some of General Kane's colleagues believed that was exactly what he thought. Okay, so you see a little bit of distancing there, right? Dan Kane's colleagues think that Dan Kane thought this was a bad idea, but he didn't communicate that to the president or at least communicated directly.

Now, here's a sentence about J.D. Vance. The vice president thought a regime changed war with Iran would be a disaster. Just listen to the different levels of certainty. Yeah, man. In those two sentences, as you think about how this story was reported. I mean, man, why does J.D. Vance's intelligence, military intelligence so much better than the Mazzads. I mean, what does he have? What is he using that they don't have any access to?

That's just another question. my other reaction to the story was if you read it and again this piece lands hours before the deadline that Donald Trump had set earlier this week where he was going to bomb around Iran quote back to the stone ages yeah and so we're all kind of you know in this uncomfortable place we're worried about the state of the world and here comes this reporting that that tells us things that we did not know or tells us things that we did not know or tells us in more detail than we knew before. I think, though, if you read this piece carefully, this piece is, this is probably the Trump administration's best possible case for going to war. Here's what I mean.

The piece begins with Netanyahu coming in and saying, not only will you be able to kill the Ayatollah, not only will you be able to degrade Iran's ability to shoot missiles into other countries, we will have an uprising in Iran if you attack. Well, we will have true regime change in Iran. Trump, people that work for in the intelligence community, were skeptical those latter two claims.

But by the end of the peace, you have Donald Trump going to war and saying this, and I'll read this here, I think we need to do it the president told the room. He said they had to make sure Iran could not have a nuclear weapon, and they had to ensure that Iran could not just shoot missiles at Israel or throughout the region. Oh, so those were the reasons the United States went to war, because if you listened to the president or read his story, true social posts after the actual war began, those were not the listed reasons.

I mean, that reads to me like an after the fact, oh, this is why we were going, these relatively modest goals rather than the larger goals that we projected to the world after the actual war began. Yeah, I guess that is an interesting way of looking at it. I didn't even, you know, I guess in a way they're sanewashing him, you know, if you think about it. Or just goals are just goals washing. I mean, I think, you know, look, you know, if you again, go back to the very first true social post when he, when the attacks were launched against Iran, there's this idea that, you know, the people would revolt and replace the regime.

Right. Now it's like, oh, no, no, no, this is why we were going. We just wanted to grade Iran's missile capability and reign in their nuclear ambitions. Well, okay. I guess, you know, that's true. And the piece does try to do a great job of doing that. But if you know anything about the world, that's dumb because, I mean, there's a reason that even, like, you know, from Ronald Reagan to first Bush to second Bush to Obama, while none of those people bombed Iran previously. Like, there's a reason for that that is well known throughout, like, you know, in the geopolitical, geopolitical sense.

Like, there's like, well, man, if you, if you, if you fuck with Iran, man, there's going to be a lot more that's going to come with it than what you think. that's what the intelligence is for, right? And so we're just supposed to believe that, okay, well, Netanyahu, who said, I've been wanting to do this for 40 years, he's set up, you know, set up a meeting with you, had you with your cabinet just minus J.D. Vance, and convinced you of something that he's always been trying to convince you up. So if the piece is meant, or if the people that talk to Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan were talking to him in hopes that it's supposed to make us think, oh, you know, Trump actually had like some legitimate reasons for that.

I hope that people think about the context of, that is not mentioned here, which is that they've always been trying to do this. There's a reason that nobody has bombed Iran before. And so like, don't fall for whatever the story of the line that they're pitching to the New York Times right now, because that's not true. Ambitious hunk of journalism number two. Okay. It appeared in the New Yorker It was by Ronan Farrow

And Andrew Barance Ronan Farrow Name we hadn't heard in a while Another name hadn't heard in a while man It's just true What kind of leave was he on? Maybe he was working on this piece Classic New Yorker

Headline Tofer The online headline was Sam Altman may control our future Can he be trusted? The more austere print headline Was Moment of truth What'd you think of the piece?

So a lot of people warned me that this was going to be terrifying to me, that I was going to come to the end of this story and it'd be like, man, we're in deep shit. I was, and by that score, I was underwhelmed. Like, all of this seems about right. Like, given what we've known that's been previously reported about all these, you know, about Sam Altman and everybody else in that orbit, it all seems to make sense. and it was just, you know, distilled and combined in a way that it was like a very readable story, a profile of a person who, I mean, more than a handful of people have called a sociopath publicly. So it just made sense to me. Like, there wasn't as much surprising in there as I thought.

It was just a really grim read. Like, I was like, shit, man. Yeah, this is, we're in bad shape and this is how we got here. and, you know, things might get worse as a result. So I felt that way about the piece that I just, I guess because people have built it up so much that I was going to be scared and that I was going to be shot at the lack of the amorality in the ranks of people that run open AI in that tech world, it was just going to move me. And I was just like, oh, no, this is exactly what I thought it would look like. What about you? You're like my level of fear was already there.

Yeah, I was pretty bad. Yeah. Yeah. you? Well, it's interesting. I think one way to think of this piece is there's two claims that are nested within one another, or two questions maybe. One question is, is Sam Altman trustworthy enough to be the man who is the CEO of Open AI and thus in control of this terrifying new technology? And it goes through claims from his business partners and associates basically throughout his entire career.

Yeah. I mean, going back to college. Like, yeah. Going back to college. Sites all these examples. Right.

Is he trust, you know, he said this, but then he did this. He professed an interest in safety. But when it came time to actually devote X percentage of the company's budget to safety or to, you know,

to take on this safety initiative, he wasn't that interested in it. Over, claim after claim after claim in that. So that is, I think, question number one. Question number two, I saw emerge on Twitter afterwards, which said, okay, but to what degree is Sam Altman different than your average big tech CEO? Of whom we have read about many lately. Yeah.

Right? That sense of ambition, the questions of trustworthiness, you know, of possessing a, you know, of saying earlier in your career, you know what, this technology is going to be. good, is going to be for human good, or we need to orient the founding of this company around that principle. And then later saying, you know what we really want to do is make a ton of money. To what degree is he different than everybody else who works in Silicon Valley? Yeah, I mean, I thought, see, I thought that as much as this was also a profile in a way or a retelling of the story of the founding of Open AI and Sam Altman's leadership of it, I thought it was actually also very as much of a look at the tech industry and in

artificial intelligence branch of it as much as anything else. Like I thought that like Altman was a way to tell a story about any of these people trustworthy enough because you hear about so many other. I mean, Elon Musk who gave them the seed money for Y Combinator or whatever and to help build this. And then he left because he felt like they weren't taking advantage of money. But then they were like, oh, wait, Microsoft is getting a jump on us, so we might need to help them.

And Google, they're further along with AI and all these other people who start out with maybe not noble intentions, but at least like, you know, admirable. You know, it was like, oh, well, you, man, they might try to cure cancer as a part of this, but they definitely want to make a lot of money, right? So I thought it was as much a view of like the rot and the fraud and the amorality. of the very elite of Silicon Valley and the artificial intelligence community is anything else.

Like, and that Sam Altman is a product of that, that world. Like, he's very much a creature of it. Like, he got money from them. He built relationships with them. If you believe this story, he slept with a lot of them. And he hires them. And he's trying to replicate him. He's replicating himself in his businesses,

but also, like, inserting himself at the center of it. So, yeah, he's Silicon Valley. This is your Silicon Valley, guys. That's what I thought of this piece. Another interesting element here was the piece reminded me a little of Lawrence Wright, writing about Scientology. Ooh, okay. In the sense that were lots and lots of parenthetical denials.

Mm-hmm. You can tell that it was, you know, carefully put together in that way. There's this one paragraph I'll read to you. This account of Altman's time at Y Combinators, based on discussions with several YC founders and partners, in addition to contemporaneous materials, all of which indicate that the parting was not entirely mutual, building in a lot of safeguards to say,

here's how we got this information. Here is how Altman himself reacts to this particular charge and this other particular charge. It was a very vetted piece of journalism. Given all that, are you still surprised that he got that kind of access to him? Maybe a little bit. Maybe a little bit. But I think there's also,

this period of AI right now where people are trying to explain themselves. Yeah. They are trying to provide some kind of assurance that, no, no, no, we are the right people to possess this technology. We're the good guys. Did you leave thinking any of that? Did you between the good guys? I did not believe sure of that fact, no.

Yeah. I think the piece does a really good job of just raising the question of, you know, that, again, that is, and again, there was also a lot of journalistic carping of, oh, we knew a lot of this and all that kind of stuff. I don't know. I don't know how many times, it seems to me there's a, we can,

we can ask these questions in lots of different ways. Right. Because what more important question is there to ask right now about technology? Oh, yeah. I mean,

a general audience like you and I who have not read every single piece about Sam Altman out there or even a huge percentage of them. I don't know. Certainly is a positive. There are a lot of claims to weigh in this stuff, man. And so,

yeah, that have it all sort of put in one piece for us, for people that are not, you know, don't necessarily gravitate to tech journalism all the time. Yeah, I think it was a valuable service. And so I'm sorry, sometimes people have to do that. Like, this is a New Yorker is a general interest magazine. So, so they had to do it for people that have general interest. The one thing, Brian, before we move on, I wish, I just wish there was a little bit more reporting on like, well, they say they're trying to do, quote, beautiful things. Like, what is, what are

they, what kind of movement have they made on cancer research? You know what I mean? I didn't, I didn't, I didn't hear any of that. So I am sort of curious about, like, is it doing anything good at all? That's coming later. That's going to be one of the beautiful impacts on humanity. Yeah, the money. Yeah, the money from the blood money. I mean, the games from the blood money will help to be fund all the beautiful things to come.

That's right. I want to talk about the story that everyone and every sports writing text chain is talking about? Gino versus Don Staley. That wasn't it. Okay. It was the story that appeared the New York Post on Tuesday, more specifically in page 6, which published photos of Mike Vrable, the Patriots head coach, and Diana Rossini, the NFL insider at the athletic. Pictures were taken at a hotel or purportedly taken at a hotel in Sedona, Arizona before the NFL meetings in Phoenix. the photos showed Vrabel and Rassini

hanging out in the pool locking hands, hugging or at least doing a hug-like action and that's pretty much all the piece had. The post quoted some witnesses saying they didn't see anyone with Vrabel and Rassini, meaning friends, whereas Vrabel and Rassini said to the stories that they had pals at the hotel. They just weren't in those.

particular pictures. Yeah. And the rest of the piece was classic tabloid filler where you're just sort of, you know, pulling background and, you know, paragraph after paragraph of stuff before you get to the denials at the end of the story. Which are worth reading here. This is from Mike Vrable.

These photos show a completely innocent interaction and any suggestion otherwise is laughable. This doesn't deserve any further response. Rucini told the post, the photos don't represent the group of six people who were hanging out during the day, like most journalists and the NFL reporters interact with sources away from stadiums and other venues. Where do we start with this one? Well, I'm trying to think about the best way to talk about this,

because I'm trying to be responsible on this podcast. But, you know, we don't have any information other than those pictures, right? Now, those pictures are weird. Because they're taking at an angle and they're taking in a really private area. And my tailgate co-host, Van, who is a TMZ guy, says, yo, man, it's very hard to get picks like that if somebody's not trying to catch you doing something, right? So that lends the level of suspicion to this that is weird. But my rejoinder to that is if it was Adam Schefter and Sean McVeigh hanging out at a pool bar, you know, they hug to greet each other. and they're sitting side by side at the pool talking shit.

Like, would that be weird to people? I don't know. And so by insinuating that something weird is going on there, and we don't know, like, I'm trying, again, like, maybe call me a fool if you want, right? But we don't know that anything has gone on there. But, you know, by assuming that they are doing something untoward here, it really denies women a chance to ever do the same sort of insider reporting that everybody else does. Be at the bar late, you know, hanging out to somebody's hotel room, golfing together for, you know, 10 hours one day or something.

Like, any time that a woman has to be alone, and the thing, because of what TV journalism is or shit, just inside of whatever, it's putting women in situations where they're trying to get into the same rooms that are mostly filled with men. And anything they do, especially if you catch it on camera, is going to look a little weird if you're the person that thinks that men and women can't be professional or can't be friends, right? But I mean, I know that there's more to this than that. But that's kind of my top line thought. What do you think? Well, I would like to go to your, I'm glad you said that. And I want to go to your Schefter McVeigh hot tub scenario for just one second. Because I think that's the other part of this is there is.

is this is just unbelievable discomfort with insiderdom. Yeah. We love the scoops. We gobble up the scoops like Easter jelly beans and talk about them on our podcasts, but then we feel uncomfortable with how insiders get scoops. Right. And I'm not talking about people having a relationship here. I'm just talking about the journalistic relationship part of it.

Because we don't understand how all those scoops come about. We don't know how they happen. And what happens is, you know, people break news and we say, oh, you know, you must be really, really good friends with that source. You must have that kind of relationship with a source, not a romantic relationship, but just a kind of relationship where you're reporting positive stories about Coach X or player X, right? Or one insider breaks the news about this player and the other insider breaks the news about this player, this agent's players. And I just think there's this huge discomfort with that world because in, you know, in all of sports writing and within sports. writing too, by the way. You know, like when we talk about,

the people are always, oh, I, so, you know, would it be the same conversation if it was Adam Schaefter and Sean McVeigh? Just, by the way, that mental image is now stuck in my head. No.

Certainly, Sean McVeigh. No, because it wouldn't be the same conversation, but I think it would be a different and related conversation. I'll put it that way. You do. Okay. I mean, I guess, you know,

and maybe, you know, pardon me if I'm using, like, antiquated analogies or whatever. But I remember, and at least there's a trope in movies once in a point of time where guys would get together, whether they worked in sports or, you know, it might be a reporter that's trailing somebody and they'd meet in the sauna. You know, somebody's got a towel over when they're sitting in there in the steam room or the sauna and they're talking.

And, like, again, if we're going to have insiders, if we're going to have people that have to develop these relationships, to get people to trust them to tell them sensitive information, they're going to have to do kind of weird shit, like and almost pretend to be friends, but sometimes they are friends, right? And it's just like, all right, like, if I were a woman, I could understand, I would be very frustrated by this, not at Diana Rossini.

I would be frustrated by the implication that I just can't do the same shit that all the men do. And that only a certain kind of man in a certain kind of class is going to be frustrated. going to ever be able to get into these rooms, these boardrooms, film rooms, wherever, have phone numbers, text relationships. And because if a woman does it, there's always just going to be able to be like, how did you get that information, man, you know?

And so that's, I don't know. It just, it's weird. And also, it's just kind of weird. We just never assume these dudes are gay. You know what I mean? Like, maybe they wouldn't want to fuck each other too. I don't know. It's just, it's, I'm thrown back to the Olivia Nuotzey thing.

where I'm just like, man, obviously there was a, it was a real breach of journalistic ethics. She's not a trustworthy person, a trustworthy journalist and all of that. And I was just like, you know, man, but the dudes just totally get away with doing shit. Like, I mean, just because they don't have sex all the time. You know what I mean? Just because they don't have sex or maybe they do. I don't know. Like, women just can never, women can never be in the room without it being weird.

And it's just sad. That's all. I also think when we talk about a story like this, we just hit a wall because we just don't know very much. Can I say something kind of weird about that, too? Please. Thanks for giving me a person to get weird. I said this.

You need to be weird around this podcast. I feel you save it all for the other shows. Oh, no. Well, you know, they actually, they push me. They antagonize me. I can't even tell what kind of bathing suit Diane is wearing. And the reason I say this is because, and this is, again, just I'm an observer. I'm trying to determine.

You're giving me some information and I'm trying to make determinations, right? A full bathing suit, I'd be like, well, hey, we all at the pool. You know what I'm saying? Like, if we're going to get in a hot tub, I need swimwear. Women have to wear swimwear. A bikini? I might feel a little dirty. Like, that might color my idea of what it looks like.

Again, a woman can wear whatever she wants to wear. That's fine. But it's just kind of like, I can't even tell what kind of attire they have in this thing. So, anyway. Yeah. I just feel like we're gazing at pictures. and it's just like, you know, I, again, I don't know what, I don't know what to do. You get to, you get to the end of the pictures.

I read the article just like everybody else did. And I'm like, okay, now what? I mean, the only people who probably should feel some kind of way are their spouses. You know what I mean? But the rest of us, we're just, we're in it because it's funny. There's a lot of funny tweets and it's drama and it's potentially sex or sex is assinuated. So that's why we care.

But, like, I don't, you know, I don't, I don't. None of the rest of us have to care or like weigh any sort of judgment in this thing. All right, Joel. Let's bring in our special guest. And I got a royal blue book here. Look at this baby. Wait, who's on the cover? He's Shuler.

Oh, man. Former Republican congressman. He's sure. Was he a Republican? Yeah, man. I'm pretty sure. Hold on. Now I got to look at it.

Let me make sure. He's sure. That's no way that he was a Democrat. Are you sure? Oh my God. You're right. He was a Democrat. Former Democratic Congressman Heeshuler.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. On the 1994, Mel Kiper Blue Book, here's Mel. All right, Joel, let's bring in our special guest. Mel Kuiper Jr. has been covering the NFL draft for ESPN since 1984. When Mel was 23 years old and the draft was on a Tuesday morning. but Kuiper has been sizing up prospects since he was in high school.

He's the pride of Baltimore and was the best customer at the late great Baltimore ESPN zone. Mel, welcome to the press box. Great to be with you. Andy Polan and I did so much radio, live radio from the ESPN zone all those years, four hours on Saturday, four hours on Sunday from 10 to two each day. So Andy, a great friend of mine with Tony Kornhizer spent so many, our whole weekend was spent at the ESPN zone eating all those great crab cakes down there. I remember you would plug the crab cakes all the time.

They really had at the time. I mean, one of the best crab cakes you would have ever gotten was at the ESPN zone. So I remember one time they took it off the menu. So how can you take? You can't take it off the menu. You're in Baltimore. It's a crab cake country. You know, so you can't.

They got it back on a menu. So, yeah, what came back by my, you know, prodding, it got it back one there. No, they was a great crab cakes. So we had so much fun to enter the ESPN zone all those years. As I mentioned, you were in high school 18 years old when you started putting together draft reports. What was it about the NFL draft that intrigued you? Well, it was the only way to improve your football team back in those days. It was 17 rounds, keep in mind.

Then it became 12 rounds. And there was no free agency. There was very few trades in the NFL. And the only way your team's going to change from this year to next year is via the draft. And again, fans in those days didn't have access to any informational on these players. When Saturdays, how many games were you really watching? game, maybe two. You didn't have access to anything from the smaller colleges, the Division 1-A's. You didn't have any access to anything on those players. So I felt like, let me find a way

to get that information to the fans and do the mock drafts. One of the first ones ever did, I did a six-round mock back in the day. So it was crazy. All the thing, I had overachiever list, underachiever list, sleeper list. Players have improved their rating at the All-Star games. There were suggestions that came from people in the league on how things I could add to the book. What I wanted to do guys was cover the player from high school through college, how he got to there, what he did, Combine, All-Star Games, but his whole development as a football player. So, hey, the evaluation is one thing. The rating is another thing. But the write-up gave everybody a real good snapshot of that player. So when the kid was drafted by their football team,

they could get an idea of how he got from point A to point Z. Because basically, it was a lot of things who were happening, changing positions, going from here to there. So I really wanted to cover the kid in totality and just let them figure it out. Let them figure out based on all the information I provided. Do you like them? Where would you are rating? So it was just a great way to get information out there when it, like I said, it was very little available at that point in time.

Were you a big college football fan then? Like, what were your Saturdays like? Because I'm a college guy over an NFL guy. That even of itself is enough. People always ask me that question. They said, what do you love? I love my Saturdays. I love my Sundays.

And in my mind, I just love, and as soon as we got, they'll be one, two in the morning, when that last game, when the West Coast or Hawaii was finished, I'd flip to NFL. And then it was all NFL. So I loved them both. People say, some people are all college or a lot of college. Some people are a lot of NFL and don't watch a lot of it. I love them both. And I think they were totally different entities.

And in terms of the energy, the excitement, you could always tell when we went to a campus on Thursday or Friday, you knew there was a game Saturday. It's just the build up and you could just see. You could feel it, smell it, touch it, and everything. And so college was so special. So to see kids and be able to watch kids at the collegiate level and then watch their development and then get into the NFL and how they project, that they fit this scheme, what do they do?

There was so much into it. I thought there's going to be a market. I guess what? Ernie O'Coursey, who a great friend of mine, he encouraged me to do this. He said, no, you know, don't just send it out to the NFL teams, which I did in the beginning, make that available to the public. They crave this type of information the fans do. make it available to the public.

Let's just send it to the NFL teams and writers around the country. Make it available to fans out there. And we did that starting really in 1981 was the first year. The actual report was available to the public to purchase and had it continued on all the way through the years. Paul was there for a second on sending the draft report in those early years to NFL teams. What did they make of you? Well, they didn't know who really.

They didn't know a lot of people. When I was doing radio and I was 18, 19, I think people thought I was 40. They didn't know. They had no, nobody ever asked me. I never had to say it. I never tried to mislead anybody. I mean, they knew exactly who they were dealing with if they asked me to question. They didn't ask me.

I'm not going to tell them. So I don't know how many people actually knew or didn't know. But in terms of the NFL, I'm sending out a report. They didn't know me. Keep in mind, there's no social media. There's nothing going on. There's nothing going on there. So you really had, they had no idea who was actually doing this.

I got to know a lot of them when I went to the senior ball, to the All-Star Games. Then I would actually meet them, became great friends with a lot of people in the league. Like I say, Ernie was one of Jack Faulkner, the late great Jack Faulkner, one of my best friends ever. Like I say, Ernie was one encouraged me to do. Ernie offering me my first job in the NFL back in 1983. Before I got to ESPN, I'd accepted a position with Ernie to be an assistant to him, not an assistant GM, like just an assistant to Ernie to do whatever Ernie needed me to do. And I was going to give up the business, give up the report.

reports and go to work for the Baltimore Colts. And I said, what do you want me? He said, just go through the 83 draft. We'll bring you in in July when camp opens. And great. And got to the summer, they traded John Elway without Ernie's knowledge. I was talking to the team moving. He knew I was a Baltimore guy. He knew he would probably bring me in and have to leave. So he called me. He said, no, not going to happen. I said, what do you want me to do earn then? He said, keep doing what you're doing. You got a great thing going. Keep doing what you're doing. Nothing. We never announced you were coming here. No harm. No foul there. Nobody knew it. Just keep doing what you were doing. So that was in June.

In January, I got a call from ESPN to come up and interview for the draft job. So had Ernie, I always say this, that Ernie, of course, not cared about this 20, what, 23-year-old kid, 22-year-old kid at the time, 22, I would have never been at ESPN, would have never had anything going because I would have probably taken that job with him. He would have been left. I would have been with the Colts. They wouldn't have kept me because I was Ernie's guy, and who knows what would have happened. And so if one for Ernie actually caring about me and treating part of his family like he always did, I would have never been where I am today.

Ernie O'Courcy is a once-in-a-lifetime type of person, as Jack Faulkner was and a lot of other men that I met in the NFL were, none better than Ernie O'Courcy out there ever. So, can you just for a second bring us with you as you walk into the Colts facility? Like you're being welcomed into this world that a lot of people have only ever just guessed at or had, you know, brief glimpses at. but like you're getting access to proprietary information and all this other stuff. So what was it like for you to walk through the doors of that facility and be there every day and like have access to all that info and these football minds? I was only there once with the draft in 83. Okay.

Go down to the convention center. And Bob Leffler, who was in marketing for the cults of times, said, go down there. They're having all the fans down there. You can be down there and just let the people know who was drafted. Basically be a draft analyst, right? and nobody knew I was coming to work for the Colts. After that was over, that event was over, I went out to the Colts facility and was there.

Walked around, Frank Cush was the coach, Ernie was there, and we were part of that draft. It wasn't privy to anything. I was there with the media, hanging out with the media. I wasn't a part of the Cold Organization yet. I was going to be brought in in June. And then all the things happening with, remember trading? They drafted John Elway.

Remember that year? He was a Baltimore cult. And then they traded him without Ernie's knowledge. And then that's when Ernie said, no, there's talk of the Colts moving. I'm not going to have you come into this type of an environment. And then you're going to have to give up what you're doing. You got a great business starting.

And once you come here, and if I leave, then you're going to be out on his island all by yourself. So Ernie thought it through enough. Can you imagine Ernie thinking about me? This is Ernie, of course, at the time, is a general manager in National Football League. And he's going through all this where they're trading the quarterback. John Elway was one of his favorite players of all time. My highest graded player of all time is John Elway, by the way.

And then the trade occurs. He wasn't, he would have gotten more. They didn't get much for John Elway considering the franchise quarterback we knew he would become. But Ernie cares about me enough when he's going through all that himself. And then, of course, I always say it for Ernie. Think about it. Johnny Onitis, Burke Jones, Bernie Kosar, Eli Manning, all these quarterbacks was Ernie of coursey.

So you think about a guy who's the quarterback guru in terms of knowledge and being able to evaluate quarterbacks, nobody did it better throughout his career than Ernie of course he did. So to be around Johnny and I was, like I say, make to do the supplemental deal with Bernie Kosar and Cleveland and then get orchestrate the whole Eli Manning scenario with the Giants. Are you kidding me? None but better in terms of evaluating quarterbacks through that the history of the NFL than your course he was. You mentioned that you're doing the draft guide in those earlier as long before social media or the internet as we know it existed. How'd you make sure football fans knew that your guide existed? Through advertising and just basically doing 25.

radio shows a day. Guys, that's what I would do. From morning till night, I was doing radio shows all over, Myron Coopin, Pittsburgh, Anita Martini and Mike Edmonds down in Houston, a KPRC, KPMOX out in St. Louis, all over Denver.

With Jim Turner out there, did radio anywhere and everywhere. And then the advertising football news and pro football weekly and sporting news and advertisement you would put out there and then just getting at different lists so that you could have mailing lists to send the fans that would bought other publications.

We were just trying to get it out there. And there's many people through advertising, word of mouth, sending it out to my NFL people, sending it out to the media. I would send complimentary copies, the beat writers with the newspapers then, and just tried to, like I said, promote it through the radio.

All those hosts would say, okay, Mel, you got the draft word, I sent it to them, I'm looking at it, how can people get it? Now, give out the number, they'd call, order the report, get it right out to them, and then it would spread through. They would have their friends get the report,

I'd get calls. It was amazing. Because as soon as I hopped the phone from those radio shows, the phone would start ringing with orders. So I can't thank all those hosts enough over the years because they were the reason why I was able to get that information out there to the fans all across the country. Can I tell a quick story here, Joel?

Because that's exactly how I got Mel Kuyper's phone number back in the day. You were doing a hit Mel. I was growing up in Dallas-Fort Worth with Norm Hitzkis down there, the big guy. So here I am. I'm a young football fan. I'm like, how do I get this draft? because I just didn't know how to do it. And Mel was actually coming on the show after I was supposed to be in school.

So, Joel, this is the technology of the time. I pushed record on a tape, went to school, came home, listen to the segment. I thought, oh, my gosh, I have Mel's phone number. I got my mom's credit card, Mel, and called you in Baltimore, North Carolina. Oh, thank you. Because the norm was great. I mean, oh, I'm probably, if I keep going to leave somebody out that I really shouldn't. But the host of all those shows, like I said, I would do shows morning, if noon, evening.

as many as I possibly could. And then obviously you're looking at players, you're evaluating players. I was the only person at a big satellite dish on the roof of our house where I was able to get all those different games. I'd go to games in the afternoon. I'd go to games in the evening. I'd drive all over.

So I was trying to get information as much as I possibly could by doing it that way. You had your friends in the NFL that would help you out as well with stuff. So like I said, it was just a way to just try to put together a report on a player that allowed fans, like I said, who couldn't get that information, they couldn't see a lot of these players. I said, you're only getting one Saturday game or two. That's it. And so a lot of these players, once they were drafted, well, who are they? That's why I thought that report. And I even

Ernie and I talked about, thought it, and he knew it. He said, fans crave this type of information because they want to know, who are these guys or a fan of Georgia? Let's see where my Georgia Bulldog players are going to go. Where are they being projected to go? There was none of that out there. And like I said, I started doing those mock drafts when nobody else was really doing them. And so the draft report was something at that time, the information that was provided in those reports couldn't be had anywhere else. And I thought, that's one thing I was right on, the popularity of the draft, I really believe, guys, in those days, was going to be through the roof. Because what's better to do in April? What else are you going to do in April?

When you haven't had football since the Super Bowl, your season's still ways away. And now you get these days where you can bring the NFL and college football together. And what could be better than that? So I really thought the NFL draft. I know how I viewed it. I know how fans that I had spoken to viewed it. And I really was believing strongly that this business could be something that could be successful, whether ESPN came along or didn't.

In the beginning, I was just starting the business to be that. I didn't know what ever work at ESPN. I started in 878, 79. I started ESPN in 84. I had no idea ever work at ESPN. I didn't start it to get the ESPN. I started it or get to the NFL. I just started to be a business.

And I believed in that from the get-go. And now we see what the draft has become. It's just funny for you to say that what else are you going to do, Mel, because, I mean, you're in Baltimore, the Orioles are there. You know, the NBA playoffs are about to start up. There's the Masters. I'm assuming none of that ever was on your radar whatsoever. Well, keep in mind, I bet on the king of all sports.

That's the NFL. The NFL and football is the king of all sports, college football, a very close second, right? Or I don't know if there's a second to say. But NFL is the king of all sports. So I was betting one with the draft. right sport. There are other draft, but the NFL draft is it. So to me, you know, I just picked the right sport, had that passion for football. And I say to Rutherland, I was a huge baseball fan, love the Orioles. I'd go back to Palmer McNally, Quayor and Dobson, last 420 game winners in Major League Baseball,

Baltimore Orioles. So I was a huge, Brooks Robinson, got no Brooks, Met Brooks, Frank Robinson, are you kidding me, Boogne? I mean, the list goes on and on to the great Oriole players, Earl Weaver, Earl Baltimore. I grew up and, I mean, you're kidding, with the Baltimore Orioles and all the was great prayers. Brooks and Frank, enough said. So I was a huge Baltimore Orioles fan. But I'd say when you get to April and the king of all sports has been out of the spotlight since the Super Bowl. And now we're looking forward to the season. And this draft is going to impact my team moving forward. These are guys would be key entities. Let's find out who they are. That's why I thought the draft report would be something that football fans, whether you're college or whether you're an NFL fan, would have a lot of interest in. But Bill, Mel, that's crazy because nobody was calling the NFL the NFL the country.

King of Sports in 1984, right? Like that is a recent, that is a recent thing, right? Like, I felt like the NFL has assumed its dominance in the last generation or so. But nobody was that big on the NFL like you were, apparently. I felt like what I felt like since I'm so much, I couldn't wait until camp open. I couldn't wait to get out to Col Camp. I couldn't wait to that first college name to hear those voices. And I think, I always say the voices of college football and the NFL created a lot

of fans. I go back to Lindsay Nelson and Chris Schenko and Bill Fleming and all the great voices. And of course, Howard CoSell in the NFL, then Keith Jackson and moving forward, Al Michaels, but all the great voices that were back in mind of Lindsay Nelson doing the Cotton Bowl and they say during the Saturdays, when you're only getting one, maybe two games and you hear Chris Schenkel with Bud Wilkinson or Chris or Arabarcegen or whoever it may have been. Frank Broils, all those great football analysts that were on there, the color commentators, the play-by-play, those voices. Bill Fleming did a, had college football today on Sunday, right before NFL today was college football day with Bill Fleming. I spoke to Bill. I called him to thank him for basically creating a fan like he did with me.

And Bill Fleming was tremendous. And he said, I would drive after I did the game Saturday, I had to drive to the studio, get all the tape, put it together at two, three in the morning to get that show ready for, I think it was 12 o'clock on noon. And you'll see highlights of six games, the band, playing at halftime. That's all we had. And then 1230 was the NFL today with the great Brent Musburger, Irv, Cross, Phyllis, George, and Jimmy the Greek, right? Snyder. So that was what your Sundays were. College football today, the NFL today with Brent, Phyllis, Irv, and the Greek, and that was it. And that's what we look forward to. And I thought, if I'm, I can't get enough of this. And I know a lot of my friends and everybody loved it. Got to believe, they say, if you sample enough

people you get pretty much a trend going to or a percentage you know what's going to be so i feel like the NFL and i really believe at the time so 78 and even through my 18 years i really believe the nfl was the king of all sports it was i thought it was then it certainly is now i read that in the early years of the report meld that your dad helped you with your business what was mil kuiper senior like oh my gosh without my father you know my family my mom everybody there was never would have been a business because he had the business knowledge i didn't i was one said okay we got to get office. We got to get secretaries. We've got to get 800. No, no, no, no. Overhead will destroy you before I even start. I had no clue about business. I'm ready to go, we've got to get office here.

No, no, here. The basement's your office. I'm your secretary and those are your phone. It's right there. That's it. And we'll get going that way. So he really established that. He would work and do everything. I'll tell you a story where in the basement, I'd have my desk and he'd have his desk and we'd do where we do the reports and get them out. And the phone would ring after still and radio. I'd be over there typing on a typewriter, where you had to white out, a mistake you made. And I'm typing up my reports. Phone would have rang. I said, could you get that?

Nope. They don't want to talk to you. They don't want to talk to me. I'd have to go over, get the phone, take it, come back and figure out where I was in terms of writing my scouting report and typing it in. And this had to be camera ready to go to the printer. Okay. This was camera ready. So I had to take my notes and put it all together into a write-up.

And, you know, you can lose your train the thought very easily. where was I? I'd come back. But, you know, there was method to the madness because he said, they want to talk to you. Well, what happened through those conversations where people, I got so many friends through those conversations. I talked to him for an hour. Some of those conversations went two, three hours. So I never even got back to writing up that report on that player until the next morning. So again, he had a great business sense. He worked tirelessly. I mean, he'd be sitting there watching putting stamps when I mean, it was amazing. So without by my father, my mom, sister, and Kim took over. And when we, we,

back. Without family, this was a family business from the start. Without my family, I would have never been where I am today. What kind of bad was Mel Kiper Senior then? Like, what, you know, yeah, the kind of guy that would do this, support you? Because you didn't go, I mean, people don't know. Meldon, you didn't go to like a traditional four-year college. No, well, at the Essex Community College for two years. That was it. He was baseball. He was a great, found out of stories from all the people to play with a great baseball player. I'd seen the picture, saw the write-up. He was going to go and have a chance to play Major League Baseball. But he had a shoulder injury.

And then you weren't making a lot. So he had to work. So he gave it up. But he coached after that in high school and at University of Baltimore. But at the end of the day, he was a great baseball player. He had one thing going. He was a shortstop. He had great speed.

I never had that. But I found out even after my father passed away, even his funeral, I'd so many people come out to your dad was a great ball player, great this, great that. And then he had the business sense to basically steer me in the right direction and taught me out of things that weren't going to work that would have destroyed any chance we had to be in getting off the ground. So again, and then do the work where I was strictly doing the books, and he was handling all the business, the ads, getting the ads together

to put into publications, handling all everything that came in. I had no clue. I would have had no idea what I was doing. Okay, no, I would have known how to actually write up the reports, but it wouldn't have been a business. He had that ability to take what I had as an idea and make it what it became. And certainly at that point in time, and through the years, when I started ESPN, I was always doing the books. So the books continued until the internet came over and then everything was going on up on ESPN.com.

And then the books became a secondary option. But until the internet and everything took over with dot coms, like I said, that book was a tremendously valuable item to a lot of fans around the country who today, I just got to call this one. Mike, can you bring the blue, Peter King always said to me, Mel, can you bring the blue book out of retirement? you bring it back. Peter always got it for all those years. Peter King was one of my best friends ever covering the NFL. And Peter would always say that to him. No, I really missed the blue book.

I always called it the blue. It was the draft board, but it was the blue book because I had other ones like the preview and had newsletters. I had the draft update. I had the draft review. But the blue book was the big one. And guess what, guys, it came out. I remember how my father would say to me, every night, when you come up, I could

have 10 sheep on my desk. Before you go to bed, there's going to be 10 camera ready sheets. Weekends. You're not going anywhere. you got a deadline. So I needed that as a young, you're talking about 18, 19, 20, 22, 23 year old. You needed that. So without that type of discipline, it came from him saying, you got to do this in order to get it ready. You said in your ads, it's going to be mailed out at this date. It's got to go to press here to be able to have that happen. And it's 10 days the printer. All those things that I would have never thought about, he did. So the only reason there was ever a draft report that got out there. The only reason I was ever at ESPN was because of the job my father did steering me in the right direction and doing all that work to help his son have a fighting chance. When ESPN first reached out in 1984, did they want Mel Kuiper to come on TV and be the guy who could talk about any prospect, or did they want Mel Kuiper to come on TV and have big opinions

about the prospects? I don't think they knew what they were getting. I didn't know what I was doing at the time. I had no TV experience whatsoever. The late great John Stedman, who was one of my best friends, great columnists and did radio in Baltimore. Baltimore legend John Stedman brought me on radio. I had never been on the radio.

John would bring me on to a Saturday night show, and I'd do their show with John. And I'll go, he's calling Mr. Stedman. He said, no, please, just John Stedman. He said, Mr. Stedman, it was just John Stedman. So John was a great friend of mine in those years. And I had never done TV. Did a couple of little segments with Hope Hines, who was a TV host, and Scott Garso here, a channel two here in Baltimore.

But at the end of the day, no, I had no experience whatsoever. what happened was, good friend of mine at the time was having lunch. Greg Barada, was a player agent, was having lunch or dinner with Bill Fitz who was producing the draft at the time. And it came up where Bud Wilkinson was retiring, great coach, great color commentator on college of Bud Wilkinson, legend, was retiring. He had been a draft analyst. And he said, hey, we're looking to fill this role. He said, hey, I got a guy. He puts out draft reports. It's right up his alley. At least walk to him, got a call to come up the ESPN interview. I went up and interviewed. And for a couple hours, I guess it was the interview. Went home. A couple weeks later, got a call from Bill that I was going

to be part of the 1984 draft and do that whole year at ESPN with sports center stuff or whatever it may have been. So the 84 draft became my first year there. And they said, when I went on the air, I remember sitting with Chris Berman and Bob Lee and boomers, I said, what do I do? He said, just talk to me. Don't worry about these cameras. Just sit here at this desk and talk to me. and Bob was hosting it. We were all in Bristol, Connecticut. It was Bob Lee, Chris Berman, and myself. We weren't at the main set.

George Grand was with Paul Zimmerman and Howard Balser, but we were in Bristol. And I remember I made a prediction about a trade between Buffalo and Miami where Buffalo would trade down and get Greg Bell. And it just so happened, it worked that way. It worked these days. They traded down. It took Greg Bell.

And I remember Rudy Martsky. Talk about one of my great friends was Rudy. Oh, my goodness. Oh, man. The media call must. Oh, Rudy was the best. man. Yeah, Rudy was great. And so, and he wrote, I remember they were interviewing Rudy during the dress. I said, oh, Mel Kuiper, whoever that guy is, he had some pretty good information. So that gave me some

credibility there that Rudy recognized something and that that prediction came through and then kind of the rest of history. But ESPN just one hour, two hour interview brought me on. They didn't know what they were going to. If you go back to 84, I was speaking like I was in a library. It was so low. If you go back to the 84, I mean, it was no projection. It was just having, like, Boomer said, just talk to me and I did. But it was like I was in a library. I was talking very low, very low. Remember, we interviewed Boomer Asiason, after he dropped to the second round,

after three players in the first round and not Boomer. He was a little disappointed. I brought up Johnny Unitas and Dan Fouts and others who had dropped. And when he didn't really want to hear that at the time, because he wanted to be a first round pick, he was a second round pick. But, yeah, that 84 draft with that long hair was the first one that I had ever done. And had first, really, the first time I had ever been. on TV for any extent of time longer than a couple minutes.

Wow. That's great. So obviously, like, it's so much easy to get film and tapes now. Like, anybody can just kind of tap into whatever sort of resource now. But I'm imagining late 70s, early 80s, this was a much more cumbersome thing. How did you get game film and tapes? Yeah, like, yeah, did you go to go places if they mail it to you or what? I had schools send me stuff. I had all the different agents, all the friends I had in the league.

I got everybody and anybody wherever I could get. So I had that huge dish where I was able to watch games from all over that other people couldn't see NFL. It was that big satellite dish gave me access. And then on Saturdays, what I would do, I'd go to a game around noon in one area. Then I drive to another game in the late afternoon or early evening. So I was doing a lot of that that gets that in-person scouting, no matter what it was. I remember those days, a lot of small colleges.

Not the one-a-year years were really key entities. And so I did whatever needed to be done to get the information. And that's just the way it was. And like I said, having that ability through the reports to gain access to the friends up and I had in the league, they would talk back before. What do you think? What do you think? I'm not giving away any secrets, but it was a back and forth dialogue,

a lot of the friends I had in the national football league, which really helped me along the way when there were some players just couldn't get enough on, couldn't see enough of. And they was, hey, take a look at this guy. So it was a great relationship formed. that really helped me along the way being able to put those reports out the way I did. I'll never forget the 1994 draft mail

because I'm watching on TV and a sports bar. Young draft Nick taught tutored by you and the Colts take Trev Alberts, a lineback and set a Trent Dill for a quarterback. And you were critical on television. Whenever you were critical, of course, we parked up. Here we go. This is interesting.

And then Chris Mortensen of ESPN interviews, Bill Tobin, the GM of the Colts. and he goes on this unbelievable rant about you. Who in the hell is Mel Kiper in a way? I mean, here's a guy that criticizes everybody, whoever they take. He's got the answers to who you should take and who you shouldn't take. In my knowledge of him, he's never ever put on a jockstrap. He's never been a coach.

He's never been a scout. He's never been an administrator. And all of a sudden, he's an expert. He's in our papers two days ago telling us who we have to take. We don't have to take anybody that Mel Kuyper says we have to take. Mel Kuiper has no more credentials to do what he's doing that my neighbor, and my neighbor's a postman, and he doesn't even have season tickets to the NFL. What went through your mind at that point?

Yeah, who the hell is Mel Kiper, right? It was back when Lauren was born in my daughter, they had a who the hell is Melkiper jersey? I said, my dad. So that was always talking about it. But it was interesting because, you know, Freddie Goodellie was producing the draft at the time. And, you know, Joe Thysman was there with me and Boomer and we're all there. And, you know, when they're doing stuff away from the set, where Mort was, then you're just getting ready for the next picture,

figuring out, you know, notes, looking to everything. What are we doing? Freddie's talking to us. And I didn't even hear that. I had no knowledge of what was going on there. So I remember Freddie said to me, we're coming to you when we finish with Mort with Bill Tobber. So, okay, you're going to be on camera or three, whatever.

Just look into the camera and start talking. I said, what am I talking about? He said, well, just know that Bill Tobin's ripping you about what you said and respond to that. So I had to respond to something I really didn't see, didn't even hear. I just knew there was something said about the, and I just went on and said whatever I said, and that's all the knowledge I had at the time because I wasn't aware of what was going on back there.

And I found out it was about the whole Trev, Trent thing and it had nothing to do with, everybody brings in Marshall Falk. And nothing to do with Marshall Falk. This was strictly, as you just said, about taking, not taking Trent, but taking Trev. And ironically, guys, how it all worked out, Trent comes to Baltimore, my hometown and wins a Super Bowl.

Okay? After it's getting drafted by Tampa Bay, Trent comes here, kind of saves the day. They had a great defense. The quarterback played to be solid and consistent. Trev gave him that. Trent gave him that. Won a Super Bowl here.

Trent Dilford did in Baltimore. So that came really full circle from that moment. So there, the football helmet, you know, the old helmet phones, the ESPN helmet phone. From that year, we're sitting there, Freddie Goodell. He said, take that. Take that. It's a 94 helmet phone. I have it in my office right now.

And, you'll see it. So, again, that's the one from 1994. and right where we're looking. So I see that every day, and it brings back all those great memories. But like I said, to have Trent come back here to Baltimore with the Ravens and win a Super Bowl when that team that had one of the greatest defenses of all time in the NFL. It was pretty amazing. You know, in an interview 12 years ago, it was a story written about you in a bleach report. You said something along the lines of, I think people want to take people down.

I think this country is all about trying to take you down. Because, you know, you'd face some criticism from the agent Josh Lux and the, the, the late draft draft Nick Joel Bushbaum about like how you, you know, did stuff or whatever. So like, do you still feel that way? Like the writer in the piece at the time said you felt like you were a target. Do you still feel that way today? Well, back of those days, remember, everybody was hating one in the draft. It wasn't just me.

It was basically anybody that covers the draft was getting hated on. Over the off, right, the evaluations of the draft, the write-ups on the draft, the article's about the draft. anything pertaining to that was like, why are you doing this? Nobody cares. And I kept saying, boy, people do care. I never understood the negativity. And then it came towards me because I was doing this and I was the analyst and I don't know that seems to be. Some of the articles were written were scathing. And I remember seeing the articles and I get on Sand or Kimwood shots. I don't want to see any of this. I don't want to see the good, the bad, the ugly. I don't want to see any of it. Whatever happens, happens. People are going to have their opinions. I don't want to be

looking at this. If I have to look at that someone out, I would have said, I'm done. I'm done. I'm walking away from this, you know, because I say they were some awful, awful articles written at the time. And what happened was over the years, you notice it would be less, and a little less. And then it's gone because I think a lot of the haters either jumped on the bandwagon or just shut the hell up. That's what I, as I said, either shut up or you jump on the bandway. How can you criticize this process or anybody that's doing this? And then the internet's all right, and everybody's got mock drafts and everybody's got,

and what could be better than that? Now we've got thousands of people on the internet putting out mock drafts, evaluating players. I love that because it shows that, hey, that something I believed in when nobody else did, now everybody loves. And there's no haters. I don't see. There probably are articles like that. I don't see them.

There certainly aren't nearly as many, maybe a certain small percentage of what it was. But I think the fact that the draft and fans and everybody now is so into this whole event, what the biggest events you'll ever see throughout the year in sports is the NFL draft. So look at the ratings. I mean, games can't get, and other sports can't get the rating of the NFL draft. So to me, once everybody saw, these haters saw, if I write this, I don't look like an idiot. So I got to just stop. So, you know, they just, I think they just either went away or didn't do anything or just started to do what it is.

Cover the draft because everybody loves it. Joel's got a quick lightning round for you, Mel, but I have one more. Your favorite memory of covering the draft from the old Marriott Marquis in Times Square, New York? Oh my gosh. I mean, just the fans, you remember again, you could almost run up to your room and come back because that's the way it was at the grand ballroom, the Marriott Marquis. We didn't have time to do that, but I know anybody in your family that was there. I know Kim was there with me. Should run up, come back. And then the fans would be right there. It wasn't a lot, but they were right there. And everybody was kind of accessible. They had the desk with the phones. And you could see everybody getting the cards, right on the cards, and they take it up and they announced the pick. And I remember the one memory, I don't remember what year it was when the Vikings passed. on a player. They passed and then Terrell Suggs. They dropped brand in the corner. Then Torell Suggs was taken. Then they'd like, boom, boom, boom. And they finally took Kevin Williams, the defensive tackle turned out to be a heck of a player, but they had passed like a couple times. And I remember I'm sitting there on a set. It was just crazy. We had never

seen that kind of situation emerge and develop right in a blink where you're passing. Your time expires and a team's running a corner to get ahead of you so they can get that player before you do. It was crap. I remember Boomer was saying, oh, here we go, another card, another card. And it was crazy. And then the Vikings made their pick. It turned out to be a really good football player. But that was something I think we saw once, and that was it. I don't know if we ever see that again, but that was a memory that will never go away. Amazing. Well, Mel, I do have a lightning round for you. I'm going to do a special lightning round, because normally for everybody else, you know, I'm asking them about their favorite

city, favorite hotels, whatever. But we didn't ask you about players. And so I'm going to ask you about players in this lightning round. Okay. And so I want you, Mel, Mel Kiper, to build me a team of draft prospects you felt most strongly about. I don't care what happened to them in the NFL. If they got injured, they were bust or became a Hall of Famer. Just a team of the players you felt most assured of at the time you printed your draft guide, okay? Okay, so I'm going to start with a safety. But give me your safety.

Well, the defensive back, the safety that I loved coming out was Ronnie Lott. Ronnie Lott had one at the top. He was a corner. He was a corner. was corner safety, but he was one of those guys you knew could start out of corner, end up being us. Love the way Ronnie played the game. He was lights out. He was all about football.

Obviously, you know, think about the U.S.C. with Troy Palomalo. That is that same attitude. Ronnie Lott had that. He was all football. So smart. Such a tough, reliable player, versatile player with unbelievable skill set. Ronnie Lott was one of, I'd say, overall, one of my favorite defensive backs of all time.

Probably had one of the highest grades I ever gave a defensive back was Ronnie Lott. corner? Corner? I'll tell you what, when you look at corners, and I go back and it, it's not that long ago, really, when you think about the great corners that came into the league, but Rod Woodson, Rod Woodson came out of Purdue, and I don't know how many years ago is he's all years run together, but Rod was at Purdue, I remember getting the numbers and it just added up to somebody who has, when I say rare, to have an elite grade, you have to almost have rare talent. We have some guys in this draft that do as well, but Rod Woodson had rare talent. And, and, you have to almost have rare talent.

And you said, boy, he can be a guy, can be to be a lockdown guy in the NFL. And of course, Dion Sanders was the other one. Dion had one of the highest grades that ever gave a player coming out. Why? Dion, I remember against Clemson, I think it was. He basically told everybody at Death Valley, I'm taking his punt return for a touchdown. It was like Babe Ruth, okay? I'm taking this for a touchdown.

You know, what he did? Dion took it for a touchdown. Okay? Dion Sanders would lock you down. And so I think when Rod Woodson and Dionne, those were two guys were so much fun to watch because the skill sets and then the incredible confidence of Dion to say, I'm not going to tell you I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. So, hey, walk, walk, talk to talk.

Well, he did everything. And I remember that punt return was amazing where he said, hey, you punt it to me? Make that mistake. I'm taking it to the house. And he did. So I'd say those two, Rod and certainly Dion were the two for me, a corner. Okay. So I know football, but the reason I'm not going to break down inside, outside linebacker past record,

because I want to be, I want to be respectful of your time. So your favorite linebacker ever, can't miss. I'm going to go by it. It was a Baylor Bear, a great Baylor Bear and Grant Tath. And it was Mike Singletary. Mike Singletary playing. And remember, Mike Singletary was not a first round draft choice. It's a second round pick.

And he was just a guy, you could see the way he looked. I remember growing up watching Willie Lanier with the Kansas City Chiefs. And watching those great Dick Buckus and Ray Nitchke and Tommy Nobis. It was that attitude and that look. And you could see the eyes of a guy. And Mike Singletary had that look. And boy, he was moving. And Ray Lewis came along.

And Ray was certainly a my favorite of all time moving forward what he did with the Baltimore Ravens in this franchise, what he meant. First two pictures, Jonathan Ogden, and Ray Lewis speaks volumes about why Ozzie Newsom's a Hall of Fame GM in addition to being a Hall of Fame player. But I think Mike Singletary, that Baylor Bear, and that was an heck of a team that Baylor had. Now, they remember, they played Alabama and got a cotton bow. And Alabama got the best of them there.

but Baylor had with Walter Abercrombie, another Baylor Bear. Cody Carlson was a quarterback with Baylor. Cody Carlson, man. Orler's Lidz. We're both Texans. Exactly. You're just three years. It's like crap.

I got great Houston older memories with my great friend, buddy Ryan, back in the day. But certainly Mike Singletary will be that lineback. Like I said, the eyes and just the attitude, the approach of that true Mike man. Defensive lineman. So, again, it could be past, a defensive end, defensive tackle, but defensive linemen. your favorite. Yeah, I think when you look back in long terms of the overall defensive lineman, and I know L.T. and

doing what he did at North Carolina was amazing. They come to North Carolina with the New York Giants and do what he did there. But I look at Richard Dent with the Chicago Bears. I'm bringing up Richard Dent for this reason, Tennessee State. And to be able to find out some things

when Richard Dent and know a bill about Richard Dent, who was, what, a ninth round pick, late round. Those rounds don't even exist anymore, right? And to see a Richard dent from Tennessee State emerged and become the great player that he was in the NFL. And you're really thinking about, you know, coming from those types of schools then and getting that, being able to watch and evaluate players. It's not like now. Okay, now with the, a lot of these schools aren't going to be able to get those places. They get them. They can't keep them. And those days, Jerry

Rice, Mississippi, you know, the wide receivers Jerry Rice would be that guy. Because you wanted to have those guys that were, you'd wonder, can they make that transition from a lower level of competition to the NFL? That was always, and very, you know, and very good. And very good. And, you know, Richard Dent did it, and he did it in a huge way. Love that. Offensive linemen? Yeah, so many. I mean, it's just so many great offensive linemen over the years.

To me, Orlando Pace, when he came out of Ohio State, and I go back to Tony Bisselli, Jonathan Ogden, great ones, there's no question about it. But I think Orlando Pace, when you get dropped, we always say the LTPers. Who are the looked apart guys? Who are the guys got? And if they look apart, do they translate that to big-time success in the NFL? Orlando Pace did that. It was number one overall pick for a reason. It's just like I say, if you could draw up the perfect, you know, bookend,

it would be Orlando Pace. Tight in. You know, I, I, again, I'm going to go back in time. But I always want to go out. I always get the years mixed up as the one they were, what era, what era they weren't. But a guy who became, who was and always was a great player. And I, you know, time and again, you say, okay, how do they compare a rating from, the 80s to now where we have a Kenyan Sidney coming out. And I look back one of the great

players from those years. And it's hard to distinguish. I mean, Travis Kelsey was a third round pick, right? So he was a great player. But when you go back in time, my favorite tight end of all time was Dave Casper. And ironically, Dave Casper with the Raiders, the Oakland Raiders, had one of the worst, created one of the worst losses of my lifetime. And I evaluated Dave. It wasn't part of the book. But in terms of Dave Cashmore, a Christmas Eve, I'm at Calvert Hall. I'm as a student at Calvert Hall. Christmas Eve, we thought we had a team.

Ernie, of course, he was part of this team. We thought we had a team that could get to the Super Bowl. And it's going to go to multiple Super Bowls with Burke Jones, the Rustin Rifle, right? We had Roger Carr, Glenn Dowdy. We had the offensive line was in place. We had the sackpack with Dutton and

Joe Harriman and Mike Barnes, right? And Fred Cook. And we had the line back. We had everything gone. We had Laird and we had it all, Bruce Laird. We had everything gone. And his Raider team came to Memorial Stadium on Christmas Eve. And we had that game. Marshall Johnson had a kick return.

Everything was gone and ends up. They tie it. It goes into overtime. And who, the member to Ghost to the Post. And that was Dave Casper. And Dave Kat, one of the worst. And ironically, two of the greatest players that I, John Elway, nine point. John Elway was one of the reason why the Colts left him.

John Elway didn't want to be a Baltimore Colt. He wanted to be, didn't want a player. They drafted him. Now, I think earlier, of course, he could have worked it out. He ends up with the Denver Broncos one of the greatest steals of a trade of all time, right? But John Elway had the greatest, highest grade of ever given a player, 9.999. Dave Casper, one of the worst losses. I mean, Christmas, the 8 Christmas Day, it was all, that season was ruined.

We thought we were heading to the Super Bowl. And the next year was when Burke got hurt. Remember, he was sacked by Bubba Baker at the point. Pontiac Silver Dome and that injury led to the, basically, demise of the Baltimore Colts after that. But Dave Casper to watch him throughout the years with the Oakland Raiders was unbelievable. What a great talent.

He said he gave me one of the worst losses of my lifetime. I won't do receivers since you already said Jerry Rice. So running back. Yeah. Remember the Pony Express backfield. Eric, Eric, Dickerson.

32 with Craig James, right? Did you do part of that? Did DuPard? Was he? Did he ever play with the Newport number 22 came along? There was one after another with SMU running backs, but Eric Dickerson number 19 at SMU. And everybody said he's upright running backs.

The rare talent of Eric Dickerson, to have that kind of size and that's the style running and everything he did athletically. And his ability was incredible for SMU and that Pony Express backfield. And then to see him come into the NFL, I grew up a huge cult fan also grew up a huge L.A. Rams fan. and I love the fearsome, foursome, okay? And I loved everything about that football team. And to see Eric Dixon end up with the Los Angeles Rams and do what he did.

But then to go back in time, I became a fan because of Merlin Olson. Okay. And that great defensive line there with the Los Angeles Rams and all those great players on that Rams team. But to see an Eric Dickerson coming to the NFL after what we saw at SMU and play the way he did, number 19, that Pony Express Brackfield with Craig James. It was number 32 at SMU. It was fun to watch.

All right. My final one. I'm going to make you answer somebody other than John Elway for quarterback. So who was number two? Well, you know, John had the highest grade ever. Nobody was even close to him. But I think the quarterback I'm most proud of. I'll say go that route.

Okay. That I liked more than anybody else. And I remember having a conversation with the general manager of the Cincinnati Bengals, Mike Brown. I remember being on the phone with Mike Brown prior to the 1984 draft. Steve Young had gone to the year. USFL. He would have been the pick. But we had a quarterback here with the Maryland Terrapins. Number seven, Boomer O'Syerson, right? And I remember watching Boomer, throwing those

100-mile-an-hour fastballs and doing great things throwing the football. And I had great belief in Boomer. He was going to cover it. My 1984 Blue Book, the draft report, was Boomer O'Syerson. Bengals had three first round picks that year. Did not take Boomer O'Syyson. Took him in the second round. And look what happened. And there was three first round picks for Ricky Hunley, linebacker out of Arizona. Pete Koch, defense alignment out of Maryland. I think it was a roommate of Boomer's at Maryland. And Brian Blato's an offensive tackle out of North Carolina. They take Boomer in a second round. Look what happened, right? Could have won that Super Bowl if won for that drive by Montana, right? They had that Super Bowl, right? If an interception was caught, would have been different, right,

by the Bengals. But at the end of the day, Boomer Ossison, to believe in him and to see Boomer and work with him at ESPN, and what a great man he is, what a great football man he is, and tremendous knowledge, but what a great quarterback he was. And like I say, a guy that, you know, same, three times. I remember we interview, I was one of the interviews, the first interview I ever did was with Boomer when he was picked. We brought him on and he was not happy. And like I said, I brought up Fouts. I brought up, you know, I was because you say, hey, you don't worry about where you went. Just worry about going out there and establishing that leadership and becoming the man in Cincinnati, which he did. And he didn't want to hear it then, but he became a heck of a quarterback in the NFL.

Could have won that Super Bowl against Montana, but didn't, unfortunately. But to see him emerge when there weren't a lot of people believing at the time that my rating was going to equate to what Boomer would become. And he did. So I couldn't be more happy with the way Bumer's career went and what a great man he is and what a great quarterback he was and certainly great analyst he was. I refuse to acknowledge that he was great. I mean, I hated him as Sam Wich as a Houston-Ollis fan, you know, just a classless organization. I told you, Buddy Ryan was one of my best friends ever in the history of the NFL, Ernie O'Courcy, Buddy Ryan, Jack Faulkner, and a host of others. That's my group.

Those are my guys, right? And Buddy was one of my guys. Will you tell that story real quick before, about Buddy Ryan going to Houston and how you may have gotten him on the Oilers? Well, Buddy was through, we got to know each other, we talk all the time,

and then Buddy was doing radio with me. Kevin Harlan, we did a show on Sunday night covering the NFL games. Kevin Harlan hosted it with me, Buddy, Howard Ballzer. We did this show for years. And Buddy came on and did it

the year he was out of football and after the whole Eagles thing. And then he comes in, does the show. And I remember the huge, I had done radio. I've been doing radio for years with Anita Martini and Mike Edmonds on KPRC in Houston. The years of radio. And remember they were looking for a defensive coordinator. Jack Pardee was the head coach. So I said the buddy, I said, I'm talking you up on Houston radio.

You'd be perfect. He said, I'm going to phone with buddy. He said, Mel, I'm a head coach. I'm not a coordinator. I'm a head coach. I said, well, buddy, I don't know if you're ever going to have a chance to be a head coach again. You've got to get back and reestablish buddy Ryan, all right? And get this defense going.

Nope, not, not interested, not interested. It's okay, okay. The next day, next morning, I get a call from buddy. You know, buddy, he says, no, tell me about that Houston order of defense. I got it all got, Al Smith, middle line back, raid shoulder. Sean Jones, William Fuller. Johnson, remember? Christiard.

Yeah, you know, they had a lot of talent on that defense, right? And I'm going to raid children. She got the lineback around Smith. You got Richard John. You got all these things going here. Yeah.

I said, buddy, you know, I told him, he said, I think I might do it. So he got, you know, he ended up getting that job. He built that defense. Then that led to him becoming the Arizona Cardinals head coach, right? By getting that Arizona,

what Rex Ryan and Rob Ryan were brought in. And Rex Ryan, They were coaching it at the, like, smaller schools at the time. Rex and Rob were able to be brought in through that. So I always say to, I always told Rex and Rob that. I said, without my conversation with your dad, you guys might not know, how don't know where you would have been doing, what you would have been going to go? Because that led, so I told a buddy, I said, if you get that,

then all of a sudden Rex and Rob can be part of that because we know they're developing the great coaches. I knew Rex and Rob would be great coaches. There was no question that they were going to be phenomenal. So to me, you know, and then buddy, I mean, when that whole thing happened with the bear, he defended me. You want to hear him. Buddy was one of the best friends I ever had in all the history of me doing this. Like I said, with Ernie of course, Jack Faulkner, with the Los Angeles Rams, Ernie and Buddy.

Those were the three that were, and I know of others, there's a lot of others, but they were the big three that key my career. Like I say, Buddy was an incredibly loyal, great friend. And as are Rex and Rob to this day. Mel Khyber Jr., this was huge fun. Check him out on ESPN. and don't forget to try the crab cakes. Mel, thanks for coming on the press box. It's a great time. We had a great time, guys.

And anytime you need me, give me a call. He's Joel Anderson. I'm Brian Curtis. Productions magic. By Isaiah Blakely and Bruce Baldwin. Joel, we've had a big old week here at Pressbox Industries. Yeah, man. The April issue.

April issue with Sean Fennacy about all the president's men. That's up right now if you want to enjoy that. Big show with The Shoemaker on Tuesday that featured a lot of my Springbank adventures. We'll talk about that at some point, yeah. Plus some hard-hitting media takes and that stuff. Joel, we'll see you next week right here. I've already got a special guest lined up.

And of course, there will be more lukewarm takes about the media. See, then, Joel. I'm going forward to it, buddy.