The Press Box - Should Sportswriters Bet on Sports? Plus, the Taylor Swift Beat Writer and Logan Murdock on Covering the NBA.

Episode Date: November 13, 2023

Bryan and David rehash football notes from this weekend starting with the Michigan-Penn game and the Dallas Cowboys’ second win against the New York Giants (0:40). Then, they review the guidelines that ESPN employees will have to follow once their new sports-betting app launches (6:20), before then dissecting the intersection between journalism and fandom, as Gannett Media has hired a Taylor Swift beat writer (16:56). Later, Logan Murdock from the ‘Real Ones’ podcast joins to discuss his career covering the NBA and his thoughts on the evolution of journalism from reporting in locker rooms to player podcasts around the league (28:48). Plus, the Overworked Twitter Joke of the Week and David Shoemaker Guesses the Strained-Pun Headline. Hosts: Bryan Curtis and David Shoemaker Guest: Logan Murdock Producer: Erika Cervantes Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The ringer gambling feat is your one-stop shop for all things betting throughout the NFL season. From week one all the way through Super Bowl 58 in Las Vegas, we have you covered every which way. We've got our favorite futures. We've got props. We'll discuss the lines. And, of course, we'll throw in a few parlase. That's a given. So whether you're a sharp or square better, we'll be breaking it down in terms.

Hopefully, everybody can understand. We'll try to win some money along the way. and be sure to subscribe to the ring of gambling feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. David? Yes. I don't have any weekend audio for you, but I do have some football watching notes

that I scribbled down from the last couple days. Let me have them. Michigan Penn State on Saturday. This is the, our coach just got suspended game for Michigan. Mm-hmm. it was an exciting game in terms of storyline, but it was also some of the sluggiest Big Ten offense you could ever imagine.

The thing of beauty, yeah. Michigan had 30 straight running plays to end the game. 30 straight running plays in 2023. And I heard Gus Johnson was calling the game for Fox 8, this is an old-fashioned Big Ten battle. Now, how many times are we going to have that euphemism used for Big Ten games or there isn't a lot of scoring

starting next year when the Big Ten is on three different television networks. An old-fashioned Big Ten battle. Our friend Jason Gaye said, well, that's God's way of saying six to three. Which is definitely true. A couple other highlights, by the way, that game, the expletive-laden post-game interview with Michigan's offensive coordinator who was serving as head coach.

And also, I thought you would appreciate this. It's a real pro wrestling vibe of Jim Harbaugh is not allowed anywhere on the premises. He can't buy his own ticket and sit in the front row. That's how they always get around, get around in wrestling, right? That's what it would have been, right? He's just sitting over there and he's just talking to the coordinator when he walks over to the stands. He bought a ticket.

He has every right to be here. He's watching the Cowboys Giants wipeout, as I know Erica was on Sunday. Cowboys was one of those games where they were just doing everything they wanted to on offense. And Fox would keep going to the sideline. And they just had this absolutely remorseless shot of Wink Martindale, the Giants defensive coordinator, just sitting there with an absolute stone face every time the Cowboys had another touchdown. Yeah. And I don't know if you know what Wink Martindale looks like.

This is not the avuncular Wink Martindale that hosted game shows when we were kids. This is a, this person looks like a football coach. Oh, yeah. I just thought that was so funny to see that over and over again. Third up for you, I love this clip. This is from 13 action news in Toledo, Ohio. Clip was found by Joe Kinsey on Twitter. 13 action news, David, was doing a classic man on the street story.

Send the reporter out and get the pulse of the community. In this case, the piece was about a school funding measure. I want you to listen to this interview with a man who has identified on the Chiron only as Jerry G. Elementary is too crowded. High school, getting too crowded. So we either got to say nobody can move in or we got to pass the levy and build more schools. Jerry G. turned out to be former Falcons coach Jerry Glanville,

who was even wearing his trademark sunglasses. for this coach on the street interview. Oh my God, that's amazing. You love it when famous people get swept up into the grammar of local news. Did they not know who he was? Or was there some self-awareness there? So I went to the website of 13 action news in Toledo

and it identified him only as Jerry G in the write-up of this story. I don't know if they were just offering people on the street. Look, just give us your name and last in first, you know, initially your last name so we don't you know expose anybody here that doesn't want to be exposed talking about the school funding bill but it was jerry g i'm glad that he has opinions on it he's got that's that that that's you know it i didn't hear the whole thing but seemed like a pretty impressive take by jerry g people tweeted out other examples of famous people being gobbled up by local news man on the street apparently there's a scott steiner one yes is something like scott stiner comma resident

there's a Chris a long one anyway just love that he's a resident of the world Scott Steiner finally David you know the announcer Dave Pasch from ESPN

who does college football and pro football and college basketball among other things well he was getting a little bit of pushback on Twitter during a Duke Arizona

basketball game somebody tweeted at him you and Billis that is Jay Billis are such Duke homers on this Duke versus Arizona game Dave Pash replied, number one, I live in Arizona, and it's unlikely to be a Duke Homer.

And number two, I am not calling this game. Good response from an announcer when you hear it from the peanut gallery on Twitter. I am not, in fact, announcing the game that you are upset about. Coming up on today's pod, should sports reporters at ESPN and elsewhere be allowed to bet on the sports they cover? We'll talk about Gannett's new Taylor Swift beatwriter and the riddle of journalist as fan. Plus, chewing on a host of NBA media stories with the ringer's very own, Logan Murdoch. All that and much more on the press box. A part of the ringer podcast network.

Hello, media consumers, Brian Curtis, David Schumaker and producer Erica Servantis here. David, tomorrow ESPN bet is launching in 17 states. this is the thing that was the result of Penn Entertainment's deal with a worldwide leader. Tried Barstool, didn't work. Let's try ESPN. And Darren Ravelle tweeted out some of the guidelines ESPN has for employees about wagering. I'll give you a few of them here. ESPN employees cannot disclose or provide access to non-public info for betting-related purposes. They cannot place bets on events they are covering, and reporters and insiders can't place any bets on sports they regularly cover.

This is one of those issues that has been coming up more and more as sports gambling is legalized across the country, and many media outlets like ours have deals with gambling companies. What do you think about sports reporters betting on the sports they cover? First of all, public information, is that just defined very literally? It's just like things that we have been that have been published. It's actually non-public information. No, I know, but I'm saying is the point that you can't, you, I mean, is it, is non-public information defined by the league or the team? Or is that defined, or is it just a literal definition from the outlet? Is it just like injury reports that no one knows about?

or are we talking about like, oh, I got a good scoop that I haven't published yet. It seemed to me to be the workaround of like, I'm not betting on stuff myself, but I found out about this injury. And in the 15 seconds before I go tweet about it, I'm going to tell somebody else. Yeah. They would allow them to make a bet or allow them to bet on where somebody's going to be drafted when I know the answer to that question. That's how I read it. Yeah, I mean, listen, I don't have any problem with ESPN setting these ground rules. And I think it's, I think everything is a work in progress now.

but I do think, I mean, ESPN's in a weird position. They've put themselves in a weird position because they're not just like a run-of-the-mill employer. They're also, you know, in the business of gambling now, right? If the ringer has guidelines like that for beat reporters, like nobody would batten an eyelash, that would make sense. I think that there's obviously a bigger moral conundrum where it's just like you're making tons of money,

you being the big bosses, you know, broadly defined or whatever, the parent corporation's making tons of money. There's people out there potentially can make or lose lots of money. You know, why should your employees be left out of the potential pie, right? And I'm guessing that will probably be legislated in the future if that becomes an issue, although the nature of gambling is that, you know, nobody's, you know, not everybody's a big winner, right? So, but, but, yeah. The casinos were not built on winners, yes.

No, and I guarantee there will be stories in the next 18 months to two years already about, you know, beat reporters who quit their job at ESPN so they can become full-time gamblers, you know, or whatever. And that's the choice they made. Look at all the money that I've made or whatever. Which is not crazy, by the way. I mean, we've seen examples of that, of people that they got interested in football or basketball or whatever sport it is because they were interested in,

gambling. Yeah. And they were like, I can figure this out. I can look at the sport and figure it out. And I guess that's where my first question is, because I think you and I probably both think the same thing. If you're an insider and you're trying to go get this transactional scoop, you probably shouldn't be able to bet on something like that.

You probably shouldn't get the injury report you're talking about and then go, I'm going to go throw a couple thousand on this team. Sure. that seems pretty self-evident. But if we're drawing this squiggly line here about who should and shouldn't bet on sports, what about like general NFL writer? What about Ben Solek type? And I don't want to put Ben Seleck in a box because he does talk to people and call people.

But what about somebody who's just really, really good at crushing tape and understanding the game on a schematic level? And that is their interaction with sports. should they not be able to bet on football when their entire life is devoted to understanding football and trying to figure out what's going to work, what's not? Well, I think it's that sort of that sort of person, you know, the real analysts and slash analytics focused reporters that will probably be the ones that, you know, move off the farm. I mean, whatever. But you're right. It's a good question.

and it's not an easy one to resolve. I mean, listen, but there's a whole bunch of, you don't have to even get into the weeds that much to have a bunch of moral or otherwise, just, or general conundrums about this, you know? I mean, I saw someone retweeted an Adam Scheftertweet earlier today about how he's, about someone who made $5.5 million off a four-leg parlay

or something betting on football games this weekend. You know, Adam Schefter can't make this bet, but he's like actively promoting the art form, right? he's promoting the pastime. Yes. And, you know, promotion of gambling is still, you know, a question mark, that sort of thing. You know, I mean, there's all kinds of questions about that. And also, just, I mean, I'm sure a lot of listeners are already thinking this.

You can make all these rules about what you are and aren't allowed to do. But anytime you find yourself in a position of making these sorts of rules, the more, you have to, you have to logically be worried about the second and third. third-degree versions of it, right? Basketball and football reporters swapping information so that you can place bets on the information that you have, right? Or, you know, reporters feeding information to the sports books or to, or to, you know, or to big money gamblers or whatever. I mean, all this stuff is going to be a much more significant, I mean, potentially could be a much more significant issue than, you know, whether or not been Solax betting on games, you know? And so presumably people have

thought this through and there must be some means. to look after this or whatever. But, I mean, there are problems much bigger to me than just whether or not football beat writers can, you know, bet on their team. It's interesting because I think that's why probably ESPN says blanket prohibition.

Because you're trying to head off those second order and third order problems before you even get to them. So we're going to draw a straight line rather than a squiggly line around. these people can bet and these people can't bet. I do like your point a lot about the promotion of gambling because I think that is a really interesting question

that is begged by prohibitions like this. More and more networks like ESPN have become promoters of gambling. We got bad beats. We got lines on the screen. We got shows devoted specifically to this. We got what used to be wink, wink, and we're just putting it out there. And ESPN, I think, would tell you, look, people were making bets anyway.

They were making bets even before online gambling was a thing. So we were going to serve the audience. Fine. But if you are promoting it, it's also weird to say, oh, we're just promoting this. We would never in a million years let our personalities do this thing that they are so obviously promoting and encouraging you and telling you is a lot of fun. again, I don't know that that's, you know, completely sideways, but it is interesting that you would do that and be like, but we don't bet.

That is the line we draw. Well, and they, I mean, and that's, I mean, obviously a sideline for Schaefter, but like, you know, they'll still be putting the lines on, like you just said, on, you know, ESPN broadcasts, right? They're still going to have shows that cover the betting. They're making picks. Yeah, I mean, you're right. So you're making picks based against a line, whatever.

you gotta wonder, well, especially if those talking head shows, that, I mean, that might be where the real brain drain comes, right? I mean, if you have talking head betting shows and these people aren't under full-time contracts or whatever, then maybe they start skipping out or whatever. But don't you want that person to bet, by the way, the person who's on the talking about put your money where your mouth is? There's a question of legitimacy, right? I mean, like, if you're watching people just talking about betting that you know aren't betting,

then what's your motivation? This is what you're thinking. What's your motivation for these takes or whatever? And the way that media has been, has turned, and we have, you know, great gambling content on the ringer every day.

It's about, you know, being right there next to somebody placing the bets so much the time. You know, I mean, it's, you need to have that and you need to have that. I mean,

listen, would you, would anybody, you know, if Jimmy the Greek were doing it today, he would be placing bets and you wouldn't care about him if he was just, like reading a script, right?

The point is that he was like, he seemed like somebody who was out there placing high dollar wagers. And he was. He was a gambler. Like, he didn't, he wasn't like, oh, yeah,

I used to work in an NFL front office. Yeah. The whole thing was, I'm a gambler. Yeah. No, I know. And it also sort of runs,

you know, headlong into this idea that sports personalities, sports writers are trying to be more and more like fans. Not trying to be Olympian person. with a press pass anymore. We're trying to be like you. Hey, I'm a fan like you. I have a favorite team.

Well, gambling goes to that too. Just like you on planned fantasy. And I'm whining about my fantasy team on Twitter. Just like you, I'm making bets and doing it. It's a fascinating question. I don't have a great answer about whether they should do it or not. Or whether anybody should do it or not, maybe better said. But it's, it's a question.

something ESPN is going to have to tangle with now that they have a betting app that is literally called ESPN bed. All right. Next up, David, the Taylor Swift beatwriter. We talked recently about how the newspaper chain Gannett put out a job listing for Taylor Swift and Beyonce beatwriters. First of all, cheapest pop you can do in journalism and is announced a kind of a wacky job. Remember years ago, Texas Monthly is like, we're going to have a barbecue editor.

Yeah. And their barbecue editor is quite good and talented. But like the New York Times, like, we want to write a story about the fact that you went out and got a barbecue editor. That is the coolest thing in the world. Well, the Taylor Swift job has been filled as the today shows Carson Daily explains in this clip. Next up, Taylor Swift, if you're planning to send a resume to a newspaper giant Gannett for a certain job opening, better hold on to it. We're sorry to say that position of Taylor Swift reporter has officially been filled. The company's hired veteran journalist Brian West to cover the pop superstar, the 35-year-old,

will be working for USA Today and the chains more than 200 local publications. His beat, all things Taylor Swift and nothing else. In case you're wondering, West does admit that he is a full-fledged Swift. So I got some of these links from Parker Molloy's newsletter at the present age. Parker has a very good story about this whole phenomenon that I suggest to check out. The aforementioned Brian West, David, put together a YouTube job. application to become the Taylor Swift beat writer. Uh-huh.

If you want to go watch five minutes that explains our modern media age and how it's changed, I suggest you go watch this. Uh-huh. Because his way of applying for the job is saying things like, I'm good at searching for Easter eggs and one of my Taylor Instagram Reels got a million views. Oh my gosh. And this is my favorite.

I'm a drone pilot. these are the things journalists must be upon these days a little different than any resume you and I ever submitted now Brian West listed off 15 qualifications for the job I want you to listen to numbers

four and five that he gives off here back to back this will give you a little bit of a sense of what he brings to the job number four I'm an award-winning journalist I have a DuPont, a Murrow, and two Emmys number five admittedly I am

a Swifty. So I do follow a lot of Taylor news. I know about every outing, every new song, every lyric, every album release, every party, every ex. So right there, back to back, we have the DuPont Award, and we have I Am a Swifty. Now, he does want to

take some pains to say that he will try to be objective in this job, or at least have opinions that might not be Taylor Swift as the greatest performer of all time. Here's a little bit of that. Number nine, I may be a huge Swifty, but I can report on Taylor objectively. I'll tell you right now three songs I can't stand by her, stay, stay, stay, false God, and it's nice to have a friend. West would go on to tell Variety, I would say this position's no different than being a sports journalist who's a fan of the home team.

Just came from Phoenix and all the anchors there were wearing Diamondbacks gear. They want the Diamondbacks to win. I don't come in here on a high horse, David, about Gannett's Taylor Swift beatwriter, but I do think this is a very interesting portal into the world of journalism and fandom and how those two things intersect. Because if we can improve his sports writer analogy there a little bit, it's not really like the people on local news wearing Diamondbacks jerseys. It's like the Diamondbacks fan who's writing a blog or went to the athletic

and started through the lens of fandom and then became one of the better or more interesting journalists to cover the team. That's kind of what we're going for, what Gannett is going for with a Swift beatwriter. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And I was thinking about that as he was listing as laughable. I mean, it's just not laughable. It's funny as that audition tape was.

If you really translated that end of basketball, it wouldn't sound that crazy, right? No. Come work at the ringer. Exactly. You have reporting awards and you're a huge fan of Blankety Blank. that sounds like us I've got three offensive sets that I don't like

and I'll tell them to you right now here's it um yeah it's it yeah you're right it's a crazy window into the way that we do our jobs now

um on some level though you have to be a fan right and you can you can define it you can you can define it down right I mean you guys I'm a fan of deform I'm a fan of sports journalism I'm a fan of you know whatever

but you can define it you have to love what you do, right? I mean, this is, I'm going a little bit far afield, but it's, I'm not just saying that in some sort of, in some sort of philosophical way. We've talked about this before on the show. For every one of us who has a beat, 50% probably more of your Twitter followers know your beat as well as you do, right? You can't fake your way into success. You know, you can't fake your way into expertise. And you got to be super passionate about something to care that might care enough to do it.

You know, I mean, there's not enough like autodidacts in the world to, you know, to fill every newspaper roster. So it does make a certain amount of sense. Obviously, Taylor Swift fandom is a one-of-one sort of thing, or maybe one of two. I don't really want to compare her or Beyonce fandom or whatever. But it does sort of, it's a thing that we're, you know, that we make, that we poke fun at, that you're conditioned to sort of snicker at,

like whatever. And then you see it, you see a tape like that. It's, you know, there's funny elements to it. But, yeah, we all love what we do or we should hope that we love what we do to that degree, you know, and you put out a, you listen, you put out a, the job listing for that. And you're right, it gets a lot of attention. But it also is because it brings in people like that, right? I mean, it brings in people who, who, who, that's a sort of candidate, obviously they're looking for because he got higher. You remember when the old media age was edging into the internet age. And you would have an old school music critic, TV critic, movie critic who was handing down opinions.

And the opinion about that person would be, do you even like movies? Yeah. Do you even like music? Mm-hmm. And then that aggrieved news consumer would race off to the website that was more obviously giving off a love of movies and music and perhaps a particular artist or particular film franchise. Now we've changed over where it's say, well, if we're going to have a Taylor Swift beatwriter, they obviously like Taylor Swift. Yeah. Like that is that is one of the preconditions for the job.

We're not just giving this to a random business reporter. Mm-hmm. And the art of this seems to be how you manifest your fandom, how you present your fandom within the job. Because you and I both know, like, if people are Taylor Swift fans and the Taylor Swift reporters like, oh, my God, the most amazing thing just happened, eventually that's going to sort of run out of gas. Nobody's going to want that. But if you're an encyclopedic, interesting, discerning news reporters. order analyst of whatever it is you're covering, who also happens to like it, that feels in today's business how you attract an audience.

Because they're coming to you. They recognize a shared love or affinity, but then they also, you also bring the encyclopedic knowledge. Yep. The sort of top end discerning fandom. We're all Taylor Swift fans here, but I'm going to tell you stuff you don't know. and also just be this kind of living catalog, critic, fan, everything you want. Right.

It's like you, but an enhanced version of you. So, you know, it's funny. And it's also just funny, by the way, to see like an old media company try to do new media things. Mm-hmm. Gannette being the oldest of old media companies. Yeah. Try to do something like we do here. And then everybody goes, well, what about bias and objectivity?

It's like, okay, no one's asking that about a website. Yeah, of course. And, and, you know, just from a purely practical standpoint, you're not going to have two reporters, you know, one Taylor Swift for the Normies and one Taylor Swift for the crazy Taylor Swift fans, right? I mean, the traffic that you're looking for is probably going to largely come from Taylor Swift fans, and you have to speak to them. Absolutely. Absolutely.

And I also think, you know, the whole point of, well, are you venerating Taylor Swift through your coverage? Well, look, if you do top 10 blank about Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift, whatever tone you do that in, you are drawing attention to Taylor Swift. Yeah. That's how these things work. You know, there's not going to be somebody who's like, oh, actually, I'm going to likely to buy fewer concert tickets and download the songs fewer times now that I've read you. No, no, that will not happen.

You will be bringing more attention to Taylor Swift as a result. All right. Coming up in 30 seconds, we go inside the NBA with Logan Murdoch, but first, David, let's do overworked Twitter joke of the week where we celebrate a gag that was so obvious that all of media Twitter made it at exactly the same time. Send your nominees to at the press box pod where they are always, always gratefully received. I mentioned Jim Harbaugh getting suspended for the rest of the regular season by the Big Ten over the alleged sign stealing scandal.

He was in the process of being further embattled last week, David, when an old friend dropped by his office. It was nature boy Rick Flair, who in the midst of this pretty funny and surreal scandal tweeted out a picture of him posing with Jim Harbaugh.

It was an overword Twitter joke to write, hey, look, it's the dirtiest player of the game. And then there's Rick Flair. Thank you to John Walters. If you gave a little woo when you saw that Harbaugh was suspended, congrats. You made the overwork Twitter joke.

of the week. By the way, some just amazing columns about due process. This is really the best sports message board story I have ever seen. The Harbaugh story in general?

The Harbaugh story and the reaction to the Harbaugh story. Yeah. Because there's a little something there for everyone. Like Choddenfreude is in college football are the same thing.

Yeah. And as a fan of not Michigan, you're just so relieved that you're not having to do the calisthenics to try to get around this because you're watching Michigan fans go, oh, no, everybody did it. I mean, everybody did it.

Then the Big Ten suspension comes down. Oh, well, you know, this is a due process. How can you do this in the middle of the season before the investigation is completed? I say that of love. I would, I recognize. Yeah, because every, every serious football fan knows that your coach is doing it too, you know, or feels like it's a total possibility. So it's, it's, it is.

It's, it's, it is. Schadenfreude. I mean, it's just amazing. All right, David, in the notebook dump, let us welcome in one of our favorites, who I might have seen across an NBA media room a few weeks ago. He is a ringer staff writer. He is host of the podcast Real Ones with Raja Bell. He is Logan Murdoch.

Logan, welcome to the press box. Man, it is an honor and a privilege to be on here. I listen to you guys every week. Brian, you have a phenomenal voice. That's all I'm going to say. That's all I'm going to start this pod. I can I remember I met you I think it was for the second time at Chase Center a couple weeks ago

and the voice just radiated throughout the room it was like hey there's a co-worker there and it just was welcoming and it was great and I'm happy to be here all that hello David you too I love you too but let Brian take all the laurels there that's great who said Logan please come on every week start with that kind of preamble we love that we got lots of NBA things to hit you up about

that are media adjacent. I think I'll start here. We've seen reporters be pretty supportive or receptive to NBA superstars who request trades. That may have reached its limit when James Hardin asked to be traded and finally got traded to the Clippers. What do you make of the James Hardin coverage? I think on the one hand, I don't know, I think it's just an example of where we are in the

media space right now. Because in order to get access, there has to be a give and take. And not to say that there wasn't always a given take, but it's a bit more blatant right now. If you want to interview with James Hardin or you want to get like the full story, you're probably going to get half of it. You're going to get James aside or you're going to get the side of the story that is brokered by the front office. And you have to kind of find what the real story is somewhere in the middle. That's kind of, it's not just a James Hardin thing. I think that that's where we are as a media society with all of,

these types of trade requests just in the transactional era that we're in. And it's just interesting because I think basketball is the sport where it happens the most. Like I watch football and I'm not as well versed to say there isn't power broken and all those things over there. But specifically in NBA, I think it's just so much more blatant. Like if you're going to, you have to, it makes the consumer have to piece it together themselves. And so you, and back in the day, like, and it's weird that I'm saying.

this but like if you read a story from maybe like let's just say like koreem when he got traded you'll see every side of the story in one l.A. Times or new york times article right every question you needed to be answered would be in there and now you have to like parse through like four or five different stories to get like a kind of a picture but there's like smoke screens here smoke screens there it's and i've seen that with the james hardin thing but i've seen that with other stars trying to get leverage. And it's just very interesting because I don't think anyone wins when that happens. I don't think

anyone wins when they have to parse through because honestly it just goes to a point where you're just like, I'm going to read one story. I guess that's it that I'm going to go all on my day. I don't think the average person goes to read four or five stories. And I think that does a discredit to, I think, everyone involved when, you know,

the people that are in power, the people that have the power, because we're not, it's really hard to get to the space where you can interview people and you can do it at a high level. And so for the people that are at the high level, it does a disservice to everyone else when you're not being,

you're not writing the whole truth because you seem to want to protect other people. I don't think that that's fair for anyone involved. Let me ask you about one of my favorite subjects. Well, actually, I'll say one of my favorite podcast subjects of the new NBA season, and that's the in-season tournament. Do you think, I'm starting to come around to this.

I'm just going to say this as a form of a statement. I'm starting to come around to the idea that the end-season tournament only exists to get people like us talking about the end-season tournament on podcasts. Do you think that's true? And do you think we're just playing into the NBA's hands when we have all these podcasts that are just sort of trying to fantasy book it all over the place? Well, I think that there's two things to this. One, there's a TV deal coming up. And the NBA wants to be very, very attractive to whoever is going to dish out the bucks.

And I've listened to you guys as podcast. The town does a great job with this. as well where they talk about how you know, it's a, it's a very fluid market right now. You have these old, the old guard and the turners and the ESPNs

that are trying to get into the pie, but also you have these, you know, these conglomerate Silicon Valley tech companies that are also trying to get into the mix so they can diversify out of, you know, just selling iPhones, right? And so right now, like we, I don't think the NBA knows quite where it's, where it's going to get the money. They just know they're going to get the money and how

they're going to get the money, which leads to my second point is we got to get, we got to start talking about the NBA earlier than we talk about the NBA. And usually when we start talking, there's times when we talk about the NBA is the opening night, it's Christmas, and then it's after, it's after Valentine's Day. And what the end season tournament does is it has you talking about the NBA in November and mid-November around. Thanksgiving, which is a boon for the NBA. It doesn't, does it really matter about the NBA Cup? No.

But you get to ask players about their league, usually when we're talking about the NFL. So I think it's a great opportunity for the NBA. I personally am intrigued by it. I'm intrigued by the two K-style courts. I am intrigued by how hard these teams are going to play. And I'm intrigued also by just what Vegas is going to be and just the stage of Vegas. I don't know how long. I think I'm going there for a little bit. I don't know. I'm going to the games. But if I am going to the games, I am looking forward to seeing just

what the atmosphere is like. And that's all the things that I just said is a win for the NBA. So I think that that for those reasons, it's a good job by the NBA of just garnering publicity for itself. And they do that in subtle ways and not so subtle ways. The not so subtle ways is the in-season tournament. The subtle ways is not really caring about, like fake way caring about tampering and kind of caring about like a lot of trade requests. Because I know that they try to say

like they don't like the trade request nor just the pre-agency and all that stuff, but they're lying because they garners interests. It makes people want to talk about it as a year-round sport. What is ultimately what Adam Silver wants the NBA to be. a lot of the NFL, which is why he's bringing the NFL up all the time. Totally,

not just before Valentine's Day, but actually after the finals ends and all the way around the calendar, which is what every league wants. Speaking of running into you at a stadium the other day, how useful do you find going inside an NBA locker room to be these days? I mean,

that's honestly how I came, even to be at the ringer, is because I lived in locker rooms. I covered the Warriors, the Golden State Warriors, from 2017 to 2020. And, you know, when you're in a world where you're competing against the Marcus Thompson's of the world, the Anthony Slaters of the world, the Ethan Strausses of the world, and that's only on the local level, the Chris Haines of the world, I was on a local level. And then you have this big national conglomerate.

I think that you would see Rachel Nichols every two weeks. You would see Michael Wilbon every two weeks. So the only way that you could, as a young reporter, I was 24 years old when I first got into the locker room. As a young reporter, that was the only way that you could kind of get an edge on those people because they weren't necessarily in the locker room as much because, you know, Michael Wilbon is flying across the country. You know, Rachel Nichols is parachuting in. And it's very vital. Like even as a national writer right now, like every time I go into, every time I go into another market, I still try to be, my goal is to just to be. a beatwriter for a week on that specific team. And the reason why you got to do that, the reason how you can

do that is, excuse me, is being in the locker room, getting talking to players, talking to staffers, talking to coaches, the money is in the locker room. You know, that's where you, that's how you get it. It's not on a court. It's not being seen. It's not all the other things. It's in the locker room. That's how you get your bones. And that's been so vital, not only for me, but a lot of other journalists, right? And I think the pandemic was really hard because you weren't able to tell those stories that you once were able to. And I'm glad last season the locker rooms opened back up. But it's very vital.

Like even for a league like the NBA who wants to be covered year-round in a real way, it's so vital that the people covering you have an intimate look at your organization and all of that. So it's very important. It's one of my favorite parts about listening to you talk about the job is that is you're kind of grounding in the beat recording. And obviously that's the history of sports journalism, right? When you look around in those locker rooms at the other journalists and stuff,

where do you feel like podcasting and maybe more broadly social media factors into all this? Because that obviously was, I mean, maybe that was something that you were thinking about from day one. Maybe that, you know, obviously everybody wants to get on ESPN. Everybody wants a bigger platform. But how much do you feel like it affects the way that people pursue their jobs in terms of becoming a kind of establishing a national profile for themselves? Social media is tricky because I think that, you know, when you're on social and all those things you want to show that you have all of these, this access and that, hey, I'm here.

I'm doing all of these things. I think the important thing is to use social to your advantage because social media and specifically Twitter, I don't know how it is right now because I'm not really on Twitter as much as I used to be. But I know when I was on, when I was on, when I was on the beat, I would look at social media to see like what the trends were. You know, like how was the, how was the national eye looking at this team that I'm covering? You know, and how, what are they thinking? And what could hit on a national level with a local appeal?

That's how I would look at social media. And that's how I would kind of just go about the beat with looking at it. But, you know, I kind of grew up in a, in a different. background. I grew up in a newspaper type background. I covered high school when I was a kid and covered and, you know, freelance and do all those things. So I knew that like social media was just one part of the coverage, right? Like you have to get the right videos. I like specifically. And, you know, I learned this a lot from Anthony Slater, but social media did play a role because, you know, I practice, especially go to say warriors practices of a certain time. If you, if you wanted to get like an

instant way to get your name out is to tweet out a video of a wild quote that Katie or Steph or Steve Kerr said and it would be a news cycle. So like I don't know what team is like that right now. I don't even think that that even exists as much anymore. But, you know, back, that's a way to use social media to your advantage. Like Anthony is a newspaper guy, but he just kind of evolved with where media was going. But I think if you look at it from a journal, journalistic perspective, you got to make sure that, you know, your journalism shops are good first, and then you can go out to see how social media plays a part in your coverage. The reporter who's in the locker room, who's taking a little Twitter video, is to some extent

competing with the podcast that is being hosted by, to take the Warriors example, Draymond Green. What do you make of the player podcast movement, Circu, 2023? I'll start with Draymond Green, which who has been very polarizing on the podcast in space. I think he's really good at being Draymond Green on a podcast.

I think the thing that he has the tools to do and I'm curious to see if he evolves to this point post career is the interviews and also being a part of the conversation when it's not about him, you know, and talking about it

from a lens that is not necessarily about him and also being critical, you know, when he does interview. I mean, that's not even just Draymond. I think that's every single player podcast because it is a market and people tend to like it. You know, like the pivot and I Am Athlete is another podcast space where it's been player first. But the other thing is, and this is going to have to be the evolution of those player pods because I think the consumer sees right through this, they have to be critical and they have to ask real questions. Because at a certain point, you're doing everyone a disservice when you just let the subject escape by because you want him to have him or her or they to have a soft landing whenever they mess up.

You're not really doing anything, but giving them a platform to spew propaganda. do. And I do wonder when that bubble is going to burst. Because I think it is eventually. I think at some point people want a critical eye. And also you have to be good at it. You have to be good at podcast and dedicated. And I think to Draymond, I think he is dedicated to it. I think that, but I do want to see how he evolves. And by extension, everyone else evolves with their player pods because it's not just something you do. I mean, I think you've seen it with a lot of people that just threw their names behind a podcast. podcast just because, you know, the Megan Merkel is a great example. Michelle Obama and Barack was a great example, but people that weren't necessarily dedicated but wanted to lend their names to a pod and see what it was. No, it's like real work to be able to do this. And you can't cheat the work no matter what because they just throw a money as something that isn't going to be sustainable because the person isn't all in.

So that's the next evolution. is like how all in are they going to be and how critical are they going to be with their subjects? I'm glad that we're just throwing shots at ex-presidents here. This has been, this is already a great podcast. The press box, baby. So hard work, yes. Yeah, I mean, you got to do the work. You got to do the preparation. You got to, you know, have a relationship with your go host or whatever. But I'm always impressed on real ones with the look with the sort of openness that you get out of your guests when you have them on. Do you, how would you, how would you break that out? I mean, is it, is it, a lot of them you do have relationships with, or Raja has relationships with, um, and certainly the interplay between you and Raja is incredibly, I mean, can be

incredibly helpful in those things. But, but what, what do you think? I mean, your, your podcast is very different than a lot of the ones that I listen to in terms of player interviews. Um, Brian and I joke are on here all the time about the, you know, player interviews that are sponsored by whatever charity the person is doing. or whatever. I mean, it's, like, how do you, how do you get people, how do you get people real on real ones? I don't know. I think, I guess I would just credit like the journalism background that I have,

because I think a lot of, I think the thing that separates us from a lot of other player pods is that the co-host actually has kind of some standing in the game and has had the experience also. It's not just, you know, maybe a player's sidekick, you know, or somebody, or they homie or something like that, I'm, we're able, me and Roger are able to play off of that dynamic where, you know,

I'll ask the journalistic questions and not to say he doesn't, but like that's my role in, in this show. And his is to ask the questions that maybe I can't even ask. And fortunately, when my co-s with Roger is he's not afraid to ask real questions. Um, and he doesn't like BS.

So, uh, we kind of both play off on that and like you're going to get a real interview and I think that we're both curious human beings and we want to know more about our world and I just want to say like I'll just take this aside like I'm so grateful to have Rogers as a co-host like I haven't met him yet but like I feel like we have grown we haven't met him in person yet but he has grown to be like one of my closest friends and also just like somebody that I know that I can trust in a situation like that to have my back because you also have to have that if it goes haywire and

I'm really just used to have him as my co-host for those reasons because he is somebody that will ask the right questions. We'll also like, you know, give, he has empathy, especially when he's interviewing. You know, he will ask a hard question, but he does give the subject space to actually answer it. And so I could not have a better co-host to do this with. And I hope it happens for a long time. But I think that, you know, him being able to just be critical and also be curious has been just a game changer for the podcast. Before you go, Logan, David and I love this podcast to be a place where reporting war stories are shared. Ideally, with a little sniffer of whiskey and a cigar, you know, just talking about the old days.

I got my pellegrino right now. I think that was suffice. That will suffice. Great. So give us a few of your favorites from the Warriors locker room. during that team's heyday? Well, there was one that was funny. I'll do a funny one first.

I remember I was leaving Chase Center once. This wasn't during like the dynasty. This was like during like the break. I was driving. I was after shoot around. I was driving. And I had like a Toyota Prius. And I'm driving.

I'm trying to go home real quick and just like, you know, get your little pregame nap in. And I see this porch driving next to me. and the window rolls down and it's Steph Curry and he goes and then where to stop line and he goes, you want to race? And he drives off. That was really funny. But the other one that was probably more serious and kind of kept me on my toes was my

first game that I ever covered was Rockets Warriors at the end of the It was a season opener, 17-18 season. And the Warriors had lost. They had lost at a buzzer-beater. Kevin Durant had made a shot. It was at the buzzer, but his hand was still on the ball, so he didn't make it. But they played really bad. They had like a 20-point lead against the Rockets and then gave it up and lost the game.

And I think I tried to like gain some favor with Steve and ask him like just off the cuff, be like, yo, man, do you guys think you're just like, this was after his first. I was like, yo, man, do you guys, you know, wish, do you guys, are you, are you glad that you guys kind of lost because you guys didn't deserve to win this game? And I was like, really just, I was just fish out of water and all this thing. And he looks at me. And he goes, he doesn't even know who I am at this point. He goes, we played a win. He said, we played a fucking win.

And then like, walks off. And I'm just like, yo, wow. Like, this is real. Like, this is a real thing. But it was so interesting covering that team, man, because it was like, especially now. I have like the benefit of hindsight with all that. Like it was really following the Beatles. You know, it was really just following a team in the moment that,

and they knew it too, of a team that you knew you were never going to see again. You were never going to see this collection of talent and this time and place. You were, you were kind of just in this Nirvana state. And it was a lot of ups and downs. And mind you, this was my first beat job. And so it was, it was really hard to stay in the moment or a lot. of times because you just had just like the ups and downs of being just the first year beat reporter. And but I learned a lot from that that team.

I learned a lot of just honestly how to cover stars, you know, where you have and star dynamics. And just being there, I still remember when, you know, Draymond had, Draymond and Kevin got into it and the games after that. And being and like literally seeing Katie, Tara's Achilles. but thinking that, oh, he just sprained his angle, he'll be all right. But no, he's down for, you know, year. I mean, he's down, not years. He was down for like minutes and minutes and just that.

And then all of a sudden, just thinking in the journalistic mind of just like, oh, man, what are the, instantly thinking, what are the ramifications of this? What is going to happen? He's leaving the arena. How do you go through these? How do you write a story that is better than, you know, your peers who have been in a game, 20 plus years and how to and also finding myself within the beat

and it was just such a learning experience and then also being you know a part of this ecosystem that's honestly never going to it's never going to die like everybody's going to go back to the KD Steph Draymond Clay Warriors like when it's all set and down like I got up from the bay from Oakland and got to cover the 96 Bulls of my

generation. It was just a really, I really feel lucky and privileged to be able to do that. So, like, it was a really interesting experience. And, you know, I'll always hold that with me. One more for you, Logan, before you go. I'm here. I'm here. On real ones this season, it's been you and Rajabelle forever. But this season, you've been joined once a week by a new co-host, a new piece of the team, Howard Beck. When I heard this was announced, I thought, you know, I love when Beck's been on before. I love Howard Beck. I love real ones.

But I'm looking at you and him and you guys play a similar position. You're both writers. You're both beat reporters. I think you both have, he has some podcast background too. Howard's a legend in his field. And some might look at that and think there's not going to be enough shots to go around. But it's been great. So I ask you, what advice would you give to your team, the Golden State Warriors, is they try to integrate.

living legend Chris Paul into their into the fabric of their team? I don't know. I think that what's interesting to a dynamic for me, because it's different than integrating to Chris Paul, at least in my view,

because like I really use it and I was really excited when I found out that, you know, even just the potential of having Howard on the podcast because one, I'm a huge fan of his, And two, like, I use this, I'm still young.

Like, I'm really, I'm young in this game. I've only been doing this for, like, maybe 10 years. So, like, that's compared to them. It's been, they have somewhat a wealth of NBA knowledge and just knowledge in general. So, like, I just approach it as, you know, I'm coming to acts, like, geniuses about their craft, you know, and Raja and Howard. So I don't know. It's different dynamic than, you know, the Warriors. where they're trying to integrate somebody who's kind of already, like, kind of seen a lot of

things and has been, like, Howard has never been my competition, you know? Like, Chris Paul has definitely been the competition of the Warriors. Um, so I, I can't really answer that question. I just, I'm just, I'll just use the question right now to just talk about just how great Howard is. I remember, like, first meeting him, I've always been a fan of his because, like, I was a huge Kobe Bryant fan. And he was always in the Kobe document. when I was a kid. So I remember the first time I actually met him. I don't think he remembers this, but it was like during the 19 finals in Toronto.

And we just found, I just, I think we was at dinner or something with somebody. I forget, but I remember Howard was there. I think it was at the Delta Hotel. And I just remember just being like wanted to ask him about the Lakers Glory Days and just keep peppering him with questions. And we had been cool throughout the years. But like, as we had gotten close, it was just, I was like, I just want to, I just want to hear him talk about basketball. And that's why he was on that would explain why he was just always on the pod all the time.

And also like he would always come through whenever like if Raja had to be out like Howard was always my first call to just do a podcast with. And I love working with that do it. And it wasn't even a thing like when he came on or when he was a thing for Mondays. I don't know if I can curse on the press box. It's too prestigious. But. Motherfucking Mondays has been a great. It's been great just to get.

that knowledge base, man, because honestly, and I don't want to get like hell of morbid and stuff with this, but like, you only have a few, you got to really be in the moment with this time that you have because, you know, with all these people on this earth. So Howard is a legend. He's worked at the New York Times, work at Bleacher Report, has really, and I think he doesn't get enough credit for being able to be an OG, but also evolving with the current landscape, right? Like, he's a guy that went from LA Daily News to the New York Times and pivoted to Bleacher report at a time where people thought that was crazy and then thrived in this supposedly young space and then goes to SI but then like comes to the ringer and I've just like really I'm just a

huge fan of his and I'm just like as long as I'm here as long as we're doing the pot I really want to just get all the wealth of knowledge I can from both him and Roger two people I really respect so like I'm really juiced to have them both in the fold that was a very sweet and earnest answer to one of the craziest questions that they've been asked on this podcast. I had no idea where David was going with that. And somehow we got all the way back to Chris Paul. That was that was incredible. Yeah, yeah. All right, Logan Burdock, read him on the ringer, listening to him on the ringer. He's playing to win. Logan, thanks for coming on the press box. It's an honor, man. Thank you guys so much, man. I love I love this podcast. Keep kicking ass. All right. It's time for David

Shoemaker guesses the strained pun headline. Yeah. Today's headline comes from Philip Sanford. It's from AP oddities. They do some of the best work in the Strain pun headline department. I'll read you the little squib here, David. A Florida family says a fast food loving black bear stole a $45 taco bell order from their front porch. The animals swipe the food moments after it was dropped off by a delivery driver. Oddly enough, this pun does. not involve the word bear, but the word taco. What was Apiotty's strained pun headline? Taco, a bear took the food off their porch. Yes. So is it like a take to take taco? What is it?

You're creeping up to it with your clawed sheep bear. No, I'm just stuck on yogi bears feeling. Picnic baskets Yeah, picketick baskets That's correct Take a Take a What's it called when a

Company Is Grabbed by another company Unwillingly Oh, Corpett takeover Mm-hmm But this involves tacos

Right, corporate talkover Taco Taco We'll give it to you A hostile Oh, hostile talkover That's fine What AP Audit's went with

I felt like there was some room to operate there with a bear. Yeah. We may have another bach, bach, bach, bach incident like we had a few weeks ago. He is David Schumacher. I'm Brian Curtis Production Magic by Erica Servantes. Shoemaker and I return next Monday with more lukewarm takes about the media. See you then, David. See you later, Brian.