The Press Box - 'Soccer Pod' — The Two Best Teams in Europe Are Playing in the Champions League Final (Ep. 303)

Episode Date: May 11, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Ryan and Ryan O'Hanlon preview the Juventus–Real Madrid matchup in the Champions League final. They cover the teams' differing management styles (2:52), Real Madrid's deep roster (7:00), and Juventus's consistent performance (17:10). Later they briefly discuss the Premier League (24:30). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. The Ringer is very excited about our new podcast that went through a lot of name iterations. What did you decide on Larry Wilmore? Larry Wilmore, Black on the Air. What was the runner up? Well, the Bill Simmons idea was it Larlarland? Larlarlarl, was that what it was? Larlarlarl, Lerland. You think people are going to subscribe to Larlarland.

That joke was that it would be the worst idea for a podcast. No, it was horrible. You don't want people thinking worse when they're signing up the podcast. No, I wanted you to have a good one. This is a very good name. So what's going to be on this podcast? It's going to be me kind of weighing in on some of the issues of the day with my audience. And then I'll be interviewing some really cool people during the podcast. Each week it'll be somebody different. Sometimes with culture, sometimes politics, sometimes sports, sometimes maybe an interest of mine, sometimes television.

I've worked a lot in television. Yeah. We got Norman Lear coming up, Bernie Sanders, Nildegras-T Tyson. So lots of great guests. Awesome. Welcome to the podcast in World, Larry Wilmore. Subscribe to Larry Wilmore's podcast wherever. get your podcast.

Hello, and welcome to SoccerPod. My name is Chris Ryan. I'm an editor at the ringer.com, and I am joined by, as always, by my anchor midfielder, the biggest madridista I know, Ryan O'Hanlon. Hala Madrid.

What's up, man? So we have, for the first time, as you pointed out in your wonderful Champions League winners and losers piece that went up on the ringer on Thursday, the two best teams in Europe, arguably, are playing in the Champions League Final

for the first time since 2011 when Manchester United played Barcelona at Wembley, a match that I attended. I did not know that. Yeah. Yeah, it was my first Grandin piece. Was it? Yeah.

I wasn't reading the internet back then. You were waiting for the internet to get good? Yeah, I was just mad that I wasn't writing it, so I didn't read it. No, it was an incredible experience. That was the Messi game. That was where Messi was like, I'm the best player of all time. Are you going to go to the game this year? I don't know where it is.

Where is it? Cardiff. Is it really? Yeah. Can we talk really briefly about whether or not Cardiff is a big enough European capital to warrant having a Champions League final. I know that they have a pretty cool stadium. No disrespect to the Welsh listeners.

I don't think it is big enough. I mean, they'll make it work. But it seems like it might kind of be a logistical disaster. Let's see. We love logistical disasters. Ryan, so YuVe and Real, heading to the final, UVA dispatched a plucky Monaco, 4-1 on aggregate. But Raal had a little bit more trouble with crosstown rivals at Lettico, who made a show of it by scoring two quick goals in their second leg.

But eventually Zadon and the boys came for them. So now we get a really interesting matchup in the final. And you wrote a little bit about this, but these are two managers in an age where we ascribe a lot of what happens in a soccer match to the manager. Like they executed a certain style. He made adjustments. He did this. he nullified that. These are two managers who, while both very accomplished,

seem to downplay a little bit the importance of what they do. I mean, Allegory makes it sound like it's a player's game, and he just sort of sets up a structure for them to succeed. And Zadon, he could be the biggest genius in managerial history, but he's got the players, so you'll never know it. Yeah, like you said with Allegory, it's sort of stark to see how he just comes out and says, sort of like my job doesn't really matter.

or at least in the way that we sort of think of managers as like guys that are crafting these super complex strategies on the chalkboard. And Zadon followed up Rafa Benitez at Madrid. And I think part of the reason Benitez failed was because he wanted such a sort of concrete structure with that team when really they just have a ton of talent. And Zadon has essentially been like, I'm just going to put all my best players on the field. Yeah, he's the sort of managerial manifestation of the Galactico concept, right? Like he is a Galactico, a former Galactico.

He knows all about how players want to attack. What would you say if you had to say, this is how Real Madrid plays, if you were trying to explain it to someone, you've never seen them in the last two seasons. What would you say about them? Because they are a sort of strange team. They have so many good attackers, but I think of them as a very compact, organized side. Yeah, I think they, this is maybe going to offend all of them. my Real Madrid brethren.

But they play a lot like a Premier League team from like the early 2000s. They cross the ball a ton and they shoot from long range a ton and that's not it's not the most efficient sort of playing style but they can

create a decent cross and always get within 30 yards and rip off a shot and they have all these incredible players that like this super inefficient strategy always ends up working for them because they're crossing so often and they're shooting so often and they have Ronaldo getting onto the end of the ball

and they have bail shooting from 25 yards out. It's, I think their style sort of frustrates some people because we love these genius managers that create these complex game plans out of nowhere and Madrid is succeeding without that, it seems like. Or is Zadon underrated? I think he probably is because part of being a manager is knowing like,

what your players respond to, right? This is sort of an NBA coach question we're having right now with Mike Brown running the Warriors and it's like the Warriors are running at maximum efficiency. And I'm sure they're using Steve Kerr's game plans to some extent. But with Zadon, it's like if you've got that level of talent, is it sort of more of a matter of not screwing it up? Yeah, I think that's what he has turned it into.

And I think we're sort of the past two years, we're kind of in a, like we talked about last podcast, It's like a bit of a dip in the overall quality of the best teams in Europe. And I think the way he's doing it, there's room for that to succeed. And he saw what didn't work with the guy before him, I think. And he's kind of just put Casamiro in a sort of defensive midfielder, who I think is probably someone that if he was on a team that wasn't Real Madrid, he might, you wouldn't like pick him out and be like, that guy's awesome.

Is it like Conte where you're just like, oh, well, obviously he's, yeah. And I think there's maybe a world where beneath, where not beneath his, where is it a different manager figures out a way to fit a guy who's better than Casimir, but doesn't have the same defensive abilities as him. And he finds a way to create a system that works for them. And they're even better than they are, but they don't need to be. I mean, they won the Champions League last year. They're probably going to win La Liga and they're in the final this year.

And you talked about this is a subtly different rail team than the ones that we've seen in the past. They've been using Rinaldo more as a, like, almost like a fox in the box, right? Like kind of a poacher. And one of the things I thought that was really interesting about what you wrote about today, recording this on Thursday, is the role of Isko playing as a kind of more of a link-up player who connects, who connects, who's like the purely like offensive player, but he's connecting the midfield with the strike force. Yeah, I think so he's basically slotting in for Gareth Bale. and they're just not similar players at all. Right. Gareth Bell is going to dribble past people and shoot a ton.

And when Bell's in the lineup, it's sort of Luca Madrich or Tony Cruz get on the ball and they try to feed him in space. Him, Benzima and Ronaldo. But without him, Isko has and does play in the midfield for them a lot too. So having him as that sort of third attacker, I think it makes the team a little more solid, I think. probably less prone to giving up goals, but also their attack is probably, it's more patient, but it's probably less.

Does he sort of like an Ozole type player? Yeah, I would say so. But a little bit more defensively capable, right? Yeah, or defensively willing, maybe. Yeah, they're similar, but Isko also dribbles a ton, and OZill's not really taking people on that often, at least anymore. Yeah, so right now, the person who's been sort of sacrificed to all of this, talent that Rayal has in their front six has been Hamas.

Do you see Hamas playing somewhere else next year? Is he the next best, like, sixth dude on Barso or Madrid to get sold somewhere else? Because I know you said Isko is probably going to stay. Yeah, he's either has or is going to, it seems like, sign a new contract for the next five years. And that, you know, that doesn't necessarily mean he's going to stay. If anything, it sort of inflates his transfer value. But it does seem like Hamas, he's scored over the week. weekend because I or recently because Zedon is able to just rotate the team because they have their second team is would maybe make the Champions League final also um but he's like Isko is not maybe in the first 11th still with everyone healthy but when one person gets hurt he's a main person Hamas still like isn't playing in any important game so I think you would assume he's going to leave because this is the second year in a row that he really hasn't played but if he stays I keep

catching the checks I guess I wonder I could see Hames being a Cotinio replacement if Barsa goes for Cotino I would be okay with that would you as a Liverpool fan yeah I think I think that past two I think he was overrated by the World Cup and they replaced D. Maria with him just because like because he scored that goal they wanted to sell jerseys yeah is definitely better I think but now him not playing and sort of underrated him and when he plays his like scoring and assist numbers are great still. I would sort of be concerned with how he would deal with playing all the time

after not playing for two years, but like running his ass off for 90 minutes every time on the clock. But he seems like there were the Ozil and Sanchez transfers a couple years ago, and I guess we really haven't had a Madrid or Barsa cast off. Because Bars has been so top heavy. Yeah. In some ways, in some ways, Real has been pretty top heavy too. I mean, Cruz, Modrich and Casimiro are like a pretty solid midfield for them.

That's like who they go with. Yeah, I don't know. It'll be interesting. Him and Renato Sanchez are the two guys who I'm kind of like most curious about seeing what happens with them this summer just because if Sanchez doesn't get to play in Byron and if Tiago is there, I don't know what he's going to do. I guess you could try to play those two guys together. Well, you could, but it seems like Byron might be in for Nabi Keda too from Leipzig. So that's another guy that Sanchez is going to have to deal with. Can't believe it.

But it's just like now it's like these three teams are sort of sucking up all of the talent. And like some of the best players in the world just we don't get to see them play ever now. Yeah. Which is not ideal. Let's talk a little bit about Juventus because they have some of the best players in the world. But some of their best players in the world are like the guys who were the best players in the world seven years ago. Like Danny Alves and Mario Man Zzuchuch. You wrote about how Allegri has been taking these guys,

often he gets for free, which is another crazy thing, and just slightly adjusting their roles that they're used to on a soccer team. So Alves is playing as a very creative, he obviously thought of as one of the best fullbacks in the world. But now he's had a much more diverse, diversely creative role in the midfield. Yeah. Talk to me a little bit about that.

Well, when he was with Barcelona, you know, every time the sort of lineup was on a board before the game, it would be Alves on the right, and then there would be some sort of winger. But he basically played as like just the right side by himself. He was like almost a fourth striker and a like a wing midfield. Yeah, and would have to drop all the way back whenever they got attacked, which actually, you know, wasn't that often.

And now with you've, In Juventus, they play with three centerbacks. So Alphas is a wingback, and he has a little bit less defensive responsibility, I think. Now he's still the only, like, nominal right-sided player in the lineup because he's a wingback. But he can sort of, he has so much support inside, he can kind of wander around. And I think he has the most chances created in the Champions League this season. after leaving Barcelona on a free transfer. And you were saying that the goal he scored against Monaco on Tuesday, I think it was the,

it gave a peek at his possible sliding doors career he could have had as a Stephen Gerard type number eight. Well, it's just like when you're on Barcelona and Messi and all of those guys are on the team, it's like. Shavi and he has to boot who gets at. You kind of, you find your role and you stick to it and you do what needs to be to help those guys succeed. But then in these past two games, you see him playing these through balls

from like the center of the field or see him following these rebounds in. And it's just like this guy is incredible. And I wonder if he'd sort of stayed on a lesser team if he would have seen him doing stuff like this more often. Yeah. And then the other person you wrote about was Manduza. And, you know, he is somebody who is like

kind of a traditional number nine, maybe not as flashy as somebody like Levindowski or something like that, but was a really like useful player of playing at the tip of a formation. But now under Allegory has been kind of shuffled out to the wing, but not in the kind of like, I think usually what we think of is somebody like Daniel Sturridge or Wellback or somebody who, if the manager doesn't have a ton of confidence or they prefer somebody to play the number nine,

but they don't want to not have this guy in the field that they put them off on the wing and hope that they can do something out there, play a little bit of defense, and then come come in. But you talked about Mario in the way that he's almost like a stretch four, right? Like he's dominating smaller players, but he's too quick for the big centerbacks. Yeah, it's with a guy like Sturridge or Welbeck, it's like they're still, those guys are both fast and can dribble by people, which is a valuable asset to have on the wing. Menzugich isn't fast

He never dribbles by anyone And they're basically using him as Like he's playing like a target forward Like getting Winning balls in the air Playing one twos with center mids or wingbacks But he's doing it like on the left side of the field So he's he's winning these balls in the air

Like he would win balls in the air Against you know Tiago Silva or any big centerback But now he's when you like sort of lob the ball up to him. It's him versus a tiny outside back. Right. Especially on a good team,

outside backs are used to attacking the whole time and not having to deal with like a six-foot-two giant just posting them up. So like a long ball in the air is usually a like a 50-50 proposition to keep possession, right? But to him against an outside back, it's like an 80% chance that you keep the ball. So he's not even a stretch four.

He's almost like a big three. You know what I mean? Like he's like a wing player. who's using physicality rather than quickness. Yeah, and then the other thing, as we saw yesterday, it's, you know, he can still get into the box from the wing. And if you chip a ball up to the back post and he gets a full head of steam

and there's just a guy who's six inches shorter than him with his feet just still trying to jump up and win the ball while Manzuka just has a running start, he's going to win the header every time. The other guy's going to wind up on his back too, probably. Yeah, and I think it's Marineo, did played Samuel Utoe on the wing with Inter when they won

but he wasn't using him in the same way he was using him more as like another defender yeah another defender and basically turned him into an actual winger and Manzuch just getting back and defending but he's playing offensively in a way that wingers never do so if you had to call it right now

do you see Ventis or Real winning my heart says real because I just never no matter who they're playing even if it's Barcelona at their peak I always feel like Real Madrid is going to win still. But I think Juventus is just, they're just so solid. And you know what you're going to get with them every time they play.

You know, they've only won twice, which seems weird because you'd think that they would have been like one of those five-time Champions League winners given like the stature of the club. But they remain kind of an opaque franchise to me from across the like the ocean where they just, their ability to come back up from being relegated into Serra B to now just being regular semi-finalists and finalists in the championship. Champions League to be able to sell off Pagba and come right back at it. And they have like a kind of old European grandeur to me.

I know this, Agnelli, like the Ferrari family owns them. Yeah. Well, I mean, do you think that this Juventus team is on the cusp of a cycle of dominance? Or do you think if they sell off Daibala and they sell off, you know, or Allegra leaves, like they'll be in, they'll cycle down a little bit. they're one of the teams I think that has sort of the that infrastructure that even if personnel leaves whether it's management or players they can just reload because I don't the team has been changing a decent amount like every couple of years over the past five or six years

they've got their defense pretty yeah the defense is the defense and buffone basically keelini and buffone have been there for I think and benucci too and benucci's been there for a while and Barzogli has also been there for a long time. I just feel like Lick Steiner's been there for 106 years. Yeah. And yeah, they've replaced Licksteiner with Danny Alvesz, which is a nice upgrade. They're always sort of playing the same way, I guess, but they're changing their players all the time. And they're not, it's not like they're overturning the team and bringing in a new generation of young guys that then age out.

And then they sell them. It's they're bringing in, like, already peaked players. I don't know if we talked about this before, but when you watch them play, and then you watch almost any other team in the world, and you watch how Juventus is the level of organization of Juventus, that seems to be just like something they drink in the mineral water there. And you just never, when you watch Liverpool or when you watch Arsenal, and you're just like, they're going to give up a goal.

Yeah. Like three of these guys aren't even paying attention of what they're supposed to be doing. But then you watch Juventus, and it's like watching a bicycle wheel turn. just like the way that no one is ever out of position, no one's ever exposed. There's never like, oh man, if they could just switch the field of play and attack down the left right here,

like they just destroy them. And it's just everything is like, is so perfectly balanced. It's so wild to watch. Yeah, it's incredible and it's just so different than sort of how all the other top teams play. It's like being hectic is sort of like the new way, like new cool thing.

Yeah, right. It's like that frenzy. And also Juventus, I mean, as you can see, They have a little bit of like the Byron thing in Italy where I think where they get to sort of poach some of the best players on the like competing teams. They don't have a very strenuous domestic schedule where they're off

they're usually like over the last few years they've been at least like six or seven points clear or whatever. So they have a day but the way that they play almost seems to lend itself to playing their best at this time of year. Yeah, I agree and it's interesting because sort of they're so good defensively

and Athletica Madrid is the other team you would put in that class. The Athletic Madrid style is like, it's amazing that they can last beyond January every year. Because they're having a heart attack for like three months. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's just everything about the team and the way it's built, the way they play just seems sustainable. The players are going to change, but it seems I'll be surprised if they're not sort of competing at this level for the foreseeable future. It was probably the most compelling Champions League knockout round that I've seen in a while.

obviously the Dortmund bus attack like cast a sort of a cloud over it and you have to wonder whether or not Dortman in any other circumstance could have beaten Monaco because they came pretty close having to play the day after they were attacked

but I think one of the cool things about it was while you had these teams like YuVe and Real who you ordinarily expect you did get some exciting fresh blood in there with Monaco And the same goes for Atletico. I mean, they've been making a really good Champions League push over the last three, four years.

Do you think that Monaco and Atletico will have the same manager next year and will they have their best players? I don't think, I think I would, I don't think Monaco won't have their best players. I'm pretty certain of that. So you think Mbapai is getting sold? Yeah, I think Mbapa and some of the other guys

will probably leave too. athletico i think the timer is just about at zero with the simioni era it can be pretty real in spain because like i think that if you're not part of the duopoly if i i understand it what a huge connection simioni has to the club but it's valencia was right there too and valencia won the league and benitez had valencia playing really well in europe and after he left i mean valencia kind of fell apart has been in the process of falling apart for years now. I think they had a pretty good run with Unae Emery for a while, but it's not,

it's a pretty, it's a pretty steep slope in, in Spain if you fall off just a little bit. Yeah, I guess the one thing you could think is that Messi and Ronaldo are presumably at some point going to start getting worse. Yeah,

so maybe that's your, the center conference of the NBA likes to think that every year too. Yeah, exactly. So that's probably foolish thinking. But, you know, it's, It's hard not to look at Athletica Madrid over the past three years and feel like they basically completely maxed out their potential in a way that no other team in the world is done. So when you think of it that way, so that got them two finals runs, a LaLegal title, which is probably the most impressive thing they did out of all this.

Two finals, one semi-final and a little league of title. Yeah. So if you're Simeonian, you did that, that's an impressive achievement. So do you think we're so close like why don't I keep pushing or do you think hey We did something amazing and it didn't totally get us to the mountain top of the Champions League Well this time to that I'm fascinated to see is if simione goes to enter or AC You know if he went to camera which it which which whether was inter a C where did he I think he played in both Inter enter enter and enter enter they just fired their manager by all accounts has plenty of money too

I mean, they could challenge Juventus within a couple of years, especially the way he plays. Yeah, I mean, I think they're sort of constrained a little bit by financial fair play since they're not in Europe. That's true. But it's sort of, in a way, he used to play there. I'm sure they can pay him a lot. And it sort of lets him play his style in a way that would be acceptable. You know what I mean? Like, if you went to Arsenal, I guess they would do whatever, like, fans would be okay.

with whatever got them titles. But I think there are places where, like, playing that underdog style actually wouldn't fly. So in other European news, Manchester United is, sounds like they are going to beat Salte Vigo in the semifinal and go to the Europa League final. Which, according to Jose Marino, who has now announced that it was always his plan to get into the Champions League via Europa League because of the crazy schedule that he has to play with 17 games in a, you know, in six weeks or something like that, however many days it was. How has the last couple of weeks in the premierly changed your opinion or has it changed your opinion about who's going to Europe

and who is staying home? I think obviously Liverpool is slipping up a little bit and Arsenal suddenly winning a couple games magically, and I would say luckily, has changed things just because the point totals are closer, but I still think, I think the big, inflection point over the past couple weeks was seeing man you just get roasted by Arsenal yeah that sort of that weirdly confirmed to me that okay I think Liverpool's

still because man way ahead of our yeah overall it everyone sort of going full throttle man you is better than Arsenal I have no doubt in my mind that that's true with slot and with yeah and them chasing Liverpool is a scarier proposition than Arsenal chasing them the thing with Liverpool it's still the same shit It's there, you never know what's going to happen when they're playing a team that's sort of packing it in. Yeah. But I would still, I still think it's going to be, I mean, maybe Arsenal finishes fifth now and Liverpool finishes fourth and Manu drops the sixth. Let's keep having the same conversation, though, that we were talking about, about Aletico and to some extent, Dortmund, and this idea that there's a style of play that's very hard to sustain over the course of the year.

And you can make arguments that it's that specific style of play that Liverpool employs that makes it hard for them to beat teams who don't want the ball in the first place and are very well organized. But, you know, Tottenham also plays very physical. They've, I think, become more disciplined and no one to, like, change gears. But they lost, it's Crystal Palace, I think, right, 3-0,

which essentially ended the title run for them. Do you think that you'll see in the next year or so Klop and Puccino adjusting their styles of play or do you think that they're just going to say like you know what maybe it's time that we punt on one or two cups no matter what it is

like whether it's the league cup and you know maybe we won't play our kids in Europe until you know if we're in the Europa League until X date I mean what what can you do to sustain a style of play over the course of a season like that it's sometimes I wonder if all of the consternation about Liverpool

is just that they don't have a good enough squad. Like their, Mane is their best player. I think we would both agree on that at this point. Then he's been out for a while. Henderson was having probably the best season of his career. He's been out for a while. Lelana, also having the best season of his career, probably he's also been out for a while.

So it's like without those three guys, Liverpool isn't Chelsea, man you or man city, so they just don't have the depth and losing your best players hurts more. But at the same time, Liverpool didn't buy anyone in January, and they knew they were going to have the fixture congestion. They knew Moni was going to leave for the African Cup of Nations. By January, they knew Sturage just wasn't in their plans.

I feel like they've known that for a while. Because even when Sturge is nominally available, Klopp seems to want to avoid him. Yeah, so there's no, now they're relying on Rigi to play up top. And that's just, he's just not good enough for this team. And it's sort of the same thing with Tottenham. It's like what depth do they have? They bought Susco and a random, another French guy, and like they haven't added anything to the team.

It's like you need, these teams need the depth too. They need to buy the right players. And I think that, you know, it's tough to buy the right player when I guess. Well, it's also, it's what Marine you always used to say is that you'd rather have a 22-man squad where everybody knows exactly what they're supposed to do than have a bloated team where He's constantly answering questions about why this guy isn't playing or why that guy's not playing. And that's why he cut his team down.

He got rid of guys in the summer and in winter. And now he's sort of paying the price for it. And I think that they probably will beat IACs in the Europe League final. I would think. Yeah, they'll be the favorites. They'll be the favorites. I mean, IAC certainly is playing out of their minds right now. But I don't know that you can win, you can compete on this many levels

with Europe being as good as it is now with these other European teams. being so good. You're just going to, I don't know when the next time we're going to see a British team get to the semifinals of the Champions League is. It's tough.

It's tough. I think the way for it to happen is like, we've talked about this also, is for like England to become Germany, you know, and the talent just sort of seeps up the table. But with all that money,

it's hard to say one team is going to be the buying team. Yeah, exactly. But like, if this were Germany, Manet would be going to, Chelsea this summer but that's not going to happen now or he wouldn't or man you something like that

and the agents aren't stupid enough to be like yeah why don't you go play every third game at Man City or Chelsea when you could play every game for Tottenham Arsenal or Liverpool if there's going to be a 1A or a two second tier that gets to the Champions League that plays on international

television regularly that gets the kind of exposure that the Premier League teams do then I would I would anticipate that as long as Champions League football is there. Guys like Alexis Sanchez won't necessarily just be like, whatever, I'll just go come off the bench for Man City

because the wages are good. Yeah, I don't think so. And I don't, I think there's probably a world where Man City sort of separates themselves from the pack, possibly, but more likely I think we're just going to see sort of a revolving door.

Like a 16 dog fight. Yeah, the teams finishing fourth, like the top four is not going to be the same every year. It's going to change every season. Maybe the teams that aren't in the Champions League just have that advantage. Chelsea has this year. I don't see anything changing for the foreseeable future.

Okay. All right. Well, we're going to do a special episode in a week or two that's looking back on the last few years of the Premier League, I think, and just kind of trying to evaluate where these clubs are, but also where they've been over sort of this decade. Yeah, and seeing who's position for the future. Yeah. And then we'll obviously do some more Champions League stuff as the game gets closer.

Until then, thanks for listening. Thanks, guys.