The Press Box - Sports Media’s Familial Obsession, a Fascinating John Fetterman Profile, and Cold-Calling the President

Episode Date: May 5, 2025

Hello, media consumers! Bryan and David are here this Monday to discuss sports media’s evolving coverage of athletes’ families and significant others after recent stories about Bill Belichick, Jax Ulbrich, and John Haliburton (1:00). Then, they run through a handful of bite-size topics, including a new entry in the running for worst question ever asked in the White House press room (23:00), a lengthy and interesting New York Magazine profile of John Fetterman (28:00), CNN’s Scott Jennings appearing onstage at a Trump rally (37:00), some disconcerting news out of Meadowlark Media (42:00), and notes from the NBA playoffs (46:00). Finally, they’re joined by The Atlantic’s Ashley Parker to discuss the feature story in which she and her colleagues cold-called Donald Trump on his personal cellphone to get an interview (57:00). Plus, the Overworked Twitter Joke of the Week and David Shoemaker Guesses the Strained-Pun Headline. Hosts: Bryan Curtis and David Shoemaker Guest: Ashley Parker Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, everyone? I'm Nora Prynciotti. And I'm Nathan Hubbard. And we're coming in like a wrecking ball to announce a brand new series. That's right. It's every single album, Miley Cyrus. Deep dive with us into the career of one of our most creative and confounding pop stars. We're starting, of course, with the best of Hannah Montana. And ending with her brand new album, Something Beautiful, in June. And don't forget about Miley Cyrus and her dead pets.

We certainly will not be doing that. So listen now on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Yes. Do you have something for me before we get to the horse racing news of the week? Well, we can talk about the horse racing. I am in Statesville, North Carolina. I flew into town sort of the last minute for my father, the Reverend H. Stephen Chewaker's final sermon.

He's retiring finally after retiring previously, pastors and boxers. They sort of, you know, they retire. than they keep getting dragged back. But this is finally it. So I decided to come out to see his last sermon. And I was sitting there with his wife, my stepmom, and we were sitting next to each other in the congregation, listening to him start the service.

And, you know, as a good pastor does, just had the whole room in the palm of his hand. Then he was on a little roll. And my stepmother leaned over to me and said, so what do you think? Does the old guy still got it? Just totally unprepared for that reference in the middle of a church service. This press box bit drops into this beautiful moment between you and your dad.

So thank you to my dad and DeSue for listening to the press box. Thank you for, you know, all the great sermons throughout the years. And yeah, that's my exciting foray into St. Central North Carolina Society here. It's been a lot of fun on this visit. We did watch the Derby together, though. I know you wanted to talk about the ponies. So journalism, official horse or the press box?

The horse or the subject? Well, it's kind of both. We'll get there. Journalism, the horse, finished second. Journalism almost fell prey to traffic before turning on the afterburners. You can tell him a horse guy. turning on the afterburners on the home stretch there.

Yeah. And almost winning the race. Mm-hmm. Before losing to, wait for it, sovereignty. Oh, yeah. Now, that was everybody's overwork Twitter joke. Mm-hmm. Sovereignty triumphs over journalism once again.

Yeah. I think that's kind of medium funny. Yeah. Then defense secretary- It's not exactly the right horse name. They could have done better with sovereignty to make it a really good overwork Twitter joke. So I agree.

And then Defense Secretary Pete Hexeth made the joke. Okay. I missed that. On Twitter. He did. And see, then it's not funny anymore. Mm-hmm.

That's like a Soviet apparatchik making Yaakov Smirnoffel joke, you know, in Russia, party goes looking for you. Yes. It's not funny when the sovereign makes the joke about being all powerful. I thought nephew Kyle had a little bit of a better take on the whole situation. Journalism still has a place in today's world. Finish second. Were you as excited about that horse race as I was?

I was, you know, I hadn't been paying as close attention as I sometimes do. We grew up, I grew up in large part in Louisville, Kentucky. So, you know, the Kentucky Derby is a fixture in my life. We, you know, it's no accident that we watch it together here at my dad's house. And, but I, but I wasn't paying that close attention. I, I, I, I, uh, I texted you yesterday because we had been talked about, talked about journalism. I texted you shortly before the race.

And I was like, holy shit. not only is their journalism, but there's a publisher and there's a horse named Owen Almighty, which I'm sure was the leader in the clubhouse at the Curtis household, because that's your son's name. Well, not Almighty, but just Owen. He was very excited. Yeah. So that, I mean, that was really cool.

There were a number of good horse names. Publisher beating journalism would have had its own sort of resonance. It would have. Yeah. That'd be like, you know, Jeff Bezos making that joke on Twitter. Yeah, no, no. Exactly. Not funny. Not funny. I don't know about you, but I will absolutely take a second place finish for journalism.

Oh, yeah. In the grand scheme of things, that was a great showing. Oh, I was, I mean, look, we're realists here. I saw nephew Kyle, official nephew of the press box, placed a $10 bet on journalism. It seems about right. I want to be like, no, no, Kyle, rooting for journalism is not the same thing as betting on journalism. No, no. We don't. We don't. We don't. We don't. do that around here, but a second place finished. Yeah. Our expectations are diminished in 2025.

We just want to have jobs and functioning publications. We'll take second. Yeah, that's true. I thought maybe for that elusive 2025 press box button that you're going to create, mm-hmm. 2025, the year journalism finished second. Atop the picture of the horse. What do you think?

I thought, yes, I will 100% do that. We'll get that made up shortly. Do we need to wait for the preakness? We'll have it out in time for the preakness. So all those preteness, you know, the journal, I assume journalism will be running in the pretense from now, right? You're going to get these done and. Well, listen, I can make, all I have to do is open up Photoshop for 20 minutes.

Someone else has got to get it printed. I want to bring on our official producer of the press box, Bobby Wagner, who has some sports media analysis about the Derby broadcast on NBC, take it away, Bobby. Hey, listen, I know a lot of people probably have been watching horse racing maybe their whole life, but I'm just coming in here with my two cents. Really hard to tell in a muddy race from the camera angle at the home stretch, which horse is which, guys. I didn't know whether to celebrate. I didn't know whether to break down in tears because of journalism. I didn't know whether my journalism degree was rising in value or lowering in value. I just couldn't see which

number was on the bib or on the saddle or whatever you want to call it. So maybe, we need some kind of like NFL first down highlighter broadcast overlay innovation. Remember when they had the famously like had the hockey puck light up on the screen? And everyone hated it. Maybe there's some way with modern technology to light up the horse that you like to toggle between horses while you're watching it. So like each horse will light up. Yeah. But yeah, it was it's a little bit hard to watch.

I mean you basically, I don't know, other people probably have more developed brains than I do. but I basically have the bandwidth to pay attention to one horse. You get the number, you get the color. In this case, it was journalism. And when he started coming out of the pack, I actually thought this was one of the easier horse races to follow because he, you know, when he came up and then, what was the winner's name?

Sovereignty. Yeah, when sovereignty came up like alongside him, then you really could understand what was going on. It was a two horse race. Towards the end, yeah. And you saw them both pop out. Yeah, I mean, it was actually pretty interesting to watch. And then it was like close to a photo finish, but not a photo finish, you know,

so you're not actually sitting around waiting for the replay. But yeah, you got to kind of pick your horse and just pay attention to your horse, which I think because of the long history of betting on the races is probably how most people do it. For all the pomp and circumstance of the day, of which there was quite a bit as someone who has not really pomp and circumstance. Tuned into the coverage in my past life of watching Smarty Jones and various other horses over my years. the actual race itself really kind of just starts with a whimper. Like, they barely even get you ready.

And I guess that's because there are literally live animals standing in cages. Like, we can't hold them here for a minute to really drum up excitement. Like, this is an F1 race. But even still, it's just started like that. I wasn't even looking. Yeah, I felt like NBC cut to the angle of the starting gate like half a second before the gates open. Yeah, if that. And we were going, baby.

Mm-hmm. I was glad they did preserve my favorite tradition, which is the sideline interview on horseback after the race. They should have that in all sports, regardless of whether or not those horses competing. But yeah, it was great. I mean, it felt like did it start later this year than it has in previous years, or am I just doing that old man yells at Cloud's version of this?

When I googled, what time does the derby start and found out it was 7 p.m. I felt like that was unusual. I felt a tab late, but I think we're just yelling at Cloud. Yeah. And another one of my famous traditions is they run other races on the track and the lead up to it. So there's numerous points in the night where like the fake, well, the fake like, you know, New Year's Eve celebration thing starts. He'll just be out like eating chips in the kitchen and someone will be like, oh, it's on, it's on. And you're all running back in. And you're like, no, it's not on. I do want to take issue with one Bobby tweet I saw after the race where he said, the bid is dead.

I don't know what highfalutin podcast you worked on before the press box, Bobby, but bits never die here. Yes. What's that line? Heroes get remembered, but bits never die. Bits never die. We're not killing the bit. We got two more triple crown races that journalism may run in.

By the way, also shout out to Mike Toriko. He unfortunately was not able to host the Kentucky Derby. I don't know if you saw this, David, but he ate something before the show which activated a nut allergy. Yeah. His throat was swollen. He had to get an epipen shot. So Mike Tariko's contribution to the 2025 Kentucky Derby is going to be coming on the press box on Thursday and doing bits.

Which I'm sort of honored and saddened by at the same time. Anyway, our thoughts with Mike Tariko. See you at next year's Derby. All right. Coming up on the press box, David, why does every story in sports now involve a dad, a son, or a girlfriend. Plus, the worst question ever asked at the White House, that big story on Big John Federman,

what's happening at Meadowlark Media, and the NBA reporter who's sporting the highest efficiency rating in the playoffs. And in our new interview slot, the Atlantic's Ashley Parker, on cold calling Donald Trump. All that much more on the press box. A part of the ringer, podcast network.

Hello, media consumers, Brian Curtis. David Shoemaker and producer Bobby Wagner here. David, I thought we'd do a bunch of short items again. I've numbered these one through ten. So journalism number one. By the way, kind of a simple structure. One of the bits, I don't know, biz is the right word,

an anecdote from my dad's final sermon was that when he was just learning, you know, in seminary, learning from the great orators of the time before him. One of them told him, never present your sermon as a numbered list because people will start ticking them off as you go. And that doesn't do anything for engagement. But go ahead. You want them to continually wonder when will this sermon end?

Yes. Yeah. But see, the thing is, church services typically last an hour. So you kind of see the writing on the wall there about the 50 minute mark. It's true. Wrap this up, get another hymn in, get the benediction in. We're out of here. All right.

Number two, David, on our numbered list. and you sent me this. It's kind of a, kind of a theme, a think piece on your part. Why all of a sudden we're hearing about the family members of athletes? Mm-hmm. You have any thoughts on why every story is about Tyrese Halliburton's dad or Belichick's girlfriend or Jeff Ulbrick's son? It felt like during the Taylor Swift era when she was the subject of every, you know,

talk radio and TV argument, TV segment. That, I mean, it was sort of inexplicable, but totally understandable at the same time. She's a super duper star and people, you know, and the sports media was trying to cash in on it. Obviously, it's a huge novelty in the sports media world that kind of they had the opportunity to have these conversations outside of the, you know, realm of podcasts where we always have those conversations. And there's been a lot of family members in our lives, not just the significant others. you know, LeVar Ball cast an outside shadow on basketball for a little while or whatever. But it did strike me that in a post, I guess we're not post Taylor Swift, but in a, you know, post Taylor Swift boom, post-Lavar Ball, post whoever else world that were suddenly, that I clicked on ESPN or wherever.

And there were headlines at the same time on the front page about the Falcons defensive coordinator son. who placed the prank Carl de Chodor Sanders. Implicit in that was the Dion Sanders of it all, who I guess is a secondary father. Bill Belichick and Bill Belichick's girlfriend, who is now a huge figure in sports media discourse, and Tyrese Halliburton's father,

who ran on the court after the Pacers dispatched the bucks and got into it with Janus. I couldn't, I mean, I don't know the answer. Or is this more of a concern now than it has been in the past in media? Or does it just seem like, I mean, I guess there's a chicken in the egg question, right? I mean, it's like if these stories exist at all, then there's going to be all of these outlets that are pumping these stories and then places like ESPN are sort of in a position of having to keep up with the news, you know, and sort of respond. But, you know, I guess I guess there's a question, my secret question, or the question I would love answered is like, does ESPN actually appreciate, is this great traffic for them? Does this do, is this, is this, you know, a sort of deliberate part of the piece of the business model now? It's an interesting question. I think the answer is yes when they see the numbers. I still think there's a little bit of a line, an increasingly blurry line, as we like to say.

in media think pieces between old sports media world and here's where I go look up on the internet to see who somebody's partner is and to see pictures of them, you know, on a beach somewhere. Yep. That still feels like separate worlds to me. Yeah. So I bet there's a like, hey, do we do we need to cover this Bill Belichick thing? I bet that conversation happens. But that the answer to that conversation is in this case is,

yes, we absolutely do, and then they look at the traffic and they're happy about it. That's a process, I think, that happened. Yeah, it just feels like, I mean, obviously, we talked to Bobby about this before the show, and he was like, yeah, I mean, there is a sort of cyclical nature to this, right? I mean, we've always heard about, about the sort of helicopter moms or whatever, of, you know, the overbearing sports parents have always been a thing. But, of course, the flip side of that is that, like, you know, sports journalism was a pretty, closed circuit situation back in the day, right?

I mean, if, like, in, if, if, I mean, literally, just literally pulling a name out of a hat, if like Larry Bird had had an overbearing parent who was a huge figure in the Celtics locker room, like it was sort of on the Celtics beat reporters a report on that or not. And if it could have affected the way that they covered everything else, they could have just, we might have just never known about something like that, you know? And I'm sure there were a lot of those instances. And by the way, that's not, the ones I mentioned aren't the only ones. you know, like every, I mean, we talked about Luca Donchik's father in the, over, you know, in the period since his departure from the Mavericks a lot.

You know, we talk about people's brothers, people, you know, it's, it's all over the place. And I think that some of it's just we have so much more information. And that stuff's just kind of interesting, you know, it takes a lot of work to understand the intricacies of a sports game. It doesn't take a lot, like, we all come pre-packaged with the, with the emotional capability to, like, have a conversation about, the influence that someone's older brother is having on their life or, say, you know, or someone's like meddling father or something like that. It is, there is a sort of inherent interest in, and personal newsiness if it's not actually, like, the news that we expect to be covered.

Luca's dad's an interesting figure in this, because the Luca trade happens and Luca himself cannot tell us what he really feels. The Mavericks can't tell us what they really feel. Yeah. But Luca's father translated to English can tell us what he really feels. Yeah. So that often, because I see that's in college football all the time because players are really locked down. You don't have the openness you have in the pros, but a mom or a dad could get on the phone.

And by the way, if you want to put the Tennessee, now former Tennessee quarterback's dad in this too, he was a big figure in one of the big transfer stories. Yeah. At the last couple of months. I think the Halliburton story and the Ulbric story are one-offs or I guess two-offs. because in both cases they wander into a new cycle. They do something and then they say, I'm really sorry I screwed up. Yeah.

It's obvious we need to cover that. It's obviously we do that, but then they sort of walk off the stage under their own power. The Jordan Hudson thing is more fascinating to me because there's a question to ask where you say, how much coverage would we be affording to Hudson if she had not become Bill Belichick's de facto media advisor? Right.

If she was just Bill Belichick's girlfriend, like what is the trigger that activates mainstream media coverage? Yeah. I mean, if you post the photo on Instagram, for somebody who has allowed almost none of their life to be public, who's on to Cincinnati reporters again and again and again, is that interesting enough for us?

Yeah. Do we get to just go, hey, well, this is interesting. Here's this guy in his 70s out there. doing stuff, living his best life. Is that coverable? Does someone ask Bill Belichick about that? Yeah.

It's an interesting question. Now, of course, what happens is we find emails, the Athletic finds emails that are being asked to be forwarded to Jordan Hudson at UNC, and it all of a sudden's like, well, now it's a story. Yeah. Now we get to talk about it. The problem is solved. But I do wonder about that.

If he had just been walking around with her, attending NFL honors with her. Where does that story go? Does it escape the confines of Twitter and stuff like that and then bleed into first take, the ringer, the press box? I don't know. I don't totally know the answer to that question. I think people would talk about it. I think people would giggle about it on social media, but I don't know that it would get much farther than that. Yeah.

But hey, problem solved. Now we get to talk about it on a media podcast. But what do you, I mean, what do you think? if you're running the newsroom, remember there was the whole thing. What outlet was it? It was USA Today that was advertising for a Taylor Swift reporter

at some point in time. If you're running, if you're running the newsroom and a familial background issue springs to the four, do you think it's on the beat reporters, the sports reporters, to cover the families

and significant others on their beat? Or would you assign someone to just a, you know, pro athlete's girlfriend beat that covers all these things as under one umbrella. Well, that would be handy because then the coach couldn't get mad at the sports writer who's asking him football questions every day. Yes.

I didn't write it. Yeah. So, yeah, so it's a church state thing. You build a wall between the, between the X's and O's and the, well, I guess I could rhyme that. But it's a, yeah, but you would keep it separate. Probably so, I guess. I mean, I don't, again, I think it comes down to how much of that are you going to admit

into the world and we live in a world where it seems like we're more eager to admit that. For sure. And if there's a line there, a little bit of a line, we're more eager to admit it. Isn't there a piece of this where like social media is now running parallel and oftentimes coming a lot closer to what actual sports media is covering now and social media is a venue where naturally you're supposed to be sharing family members? Like that's what, that's why Facebook became popular outside of colleges, right? That's why Instagram became such a huge thing.

You're posting pictures of your family, your kids, your new. girlfriend. I just saw Bradley Cooper and Gigi Hadee just went Instagram official. Has that made it to your guys' worlds yet? How do you feel about that? Feeling good now? Actually, that was number 10 on my list here, but I'll play it with something else that you blew it for me. And I just feel like that stuff is now in the public eye. It's not just that reporters knows about this stuff now, but everybody knows about this stuff now. It's literally in the public domain by being posted on social media. And athletes, like, part of the most of their job now is becoming brands, right? It's true. That's absolutely true. I guess it's, I guess, I guess,

the broader question for me is like, is it even worth having questions about what's on or off limits on a beat anymore? Or is it, or we all, is every writer basically just a, just a crossover a podcaster now? You know, we're just like, if it, like, if it tiptoes into my purview, then all, then this, then it's, then we're covering it. I think the fascinating thing about the Belichick story is that he is forcibly becoming a brand. Someone else is making him into a brand. So the thing that Bobby says would, you know, bring this into the public domain is being brought by someone else that's not Bill Beliching. He's no interest in talking about this.

Yeah, I don't know about you guys, but like one of the, it is weird that he is dating a 24-year-old, sure. The stories are weird. The TV interview was weird. So I think for a lot of people, one of the weirdest things is like he has an Instagram account now. That seems completely anathema to his whole existence prior to this moment. Yes, it is. It's incredibly weird. But that has allowed us to cover the story, puts up an Instagram account.

She speaks out during that CBS Sunday morning interview, right? She has emails forwarded to her UNC. All of a sudden, it's like, oh, okay, here we go. But you're right, this is what everybody was tittering about anyway. You know, in a way, it's more honest, I think, to talk about it. Because you're like, wait, all you guys talk about offline or on Twitter, not in your official Boston Globe article is this. Yeah. But then you never bring this to us? Yeah. I don't know. There's something about that.

All right. Number three, David, the worst question ever asked at the White House. Yes. White House Influencer briefing edition. Oh, my God.

Because you're aware that there's now a parallel White House briefing. Yes, I'm very aware. First, they brought the influencers into our briefing, and then they created a briefing just for the influencers.

Now, you know that I'm a pretty good journalist recognizer. Yeah. You should have see me at the Democratic National Convention. I was like,

there's Mike Memley right there. Here we go. Christopher Cautilago, Politico, I got, oh, that's who that is.

I remember 20 years ago driving up Connecticut Avenue with you and you're just being like, oh, look, it's Scott Pelly getting out of his car.

So yes, it was kind of a talent, you might say. I don't like to brag. So I'm watching this White House Influencer briefing

from material. And I'm like, I don't know that person with a blonde hair. I don't know who that person is. I don't know that other person. So thankfully, the Guardian gave us a little

bit of a rundown of who's participating here. A disgraced, ultra-conservative banjo player ousted from his Grammy-winning band. A far-right conspiracy theorist with alleged ties to Russia. A TikTok

creator known as Maga Malfoy for his resemblance to the Harry Potter character. I saw that, yeah. So Maga Malfoy is who we're going to nominate today. His real name is Link Lauren. Take it away, Link Lauren. What would you like to ask the press secretary to the president of the United States?

In the first 100 days is that the White House is crawling with kids. You have a young, beautiful baby boy. There are babies everywhere. There's so many young folks on staff who have kids. But the last four years under Joe Biden, parents were really stressed and ravaged. They had to take on two or three extra jobs. Depression rates were up. suicide rates were up.

You're a very high profile young mother who seems to juggle and balance it all beautifully. What advice do you have young parents out there who are starting their careers, having kids, building families, and trying to find that balance so desperately. Yeah. Well, it's a great question. Was it a great question? It's what we all, is what we all been waiting to be asked. Yeah.

Again, I don't demand much in a White House briefing. I just demand that you have a question and that the question have a potential. interesting answer. You got the Trump administration right there at your fingertips and you're like, can you give us some parenting advice? What? Okay. Number four, David, just in interest of equal time.

Because it's not only the right where you can have something that isn't a question. On the left, you can have something that isn't a quote. This was an anonymous quote that appeared in an NBC news article about Kamala Harris. you might have seen that Kamala Harris is breaking her silence. I don't you to listen to this quote here. There is a clamoring for her voice right now, said a former Harris senior advisor who was granted anonymity to speak candidly. Oh, my God.

No one can better prosecute the case while inspiring a call to action than the former vice president. A couple of reactions to that anonymous quote. Would you describe that as speaking candidly? I don't think that was candid I don't think there's any reason for that to be anonymous What would be the point of anonymity Like what would I'm not I know that these things

That anonymity's handed out just sort of Willy nilly but like what is the Like if you had to explain to your editor Why you granted anonymity there What would be just like the You got to put something down on the form Right? You can't leave that field blank Like what would you say?

Um I mean this person doesn't have a job anymore right maybe their current job precludes them from waxing poetic on how much America wants. The best argument for it is this person is clearly unimportant, right? So it makes it seem more important to not give them, to not name their name. Also, is this anonymous person right? Is there a clamoring for Kamala Harris's voice right now? There's a lot of clamoring.

I don't know if that's what it's for. This is a personal gripe. The other thing is we're really, really misusing the word said in journalism right now. no one can better prosecute the case while inspiring a call to action than the former vice president. Is that a said? Did somebody say that? Because I read news articles all the time and it's like here is a crafted statement that was clearly texted to me. Yes.

Or emailed to me and then it said. Yeah. If I'm going to give you said, I demand that you say it. It must sound like human speech. Well, that's asking a lot. But yeah, I totally agree with the principle. Number five, David, there's a big new Ben Terrace story in New York magazine about John Federman. Oh, God, yeah.

Senator from Pennsylvania. Notable thing here, this is Ben Terrace's first story at New York Magazine, came over from the Washington Post, and he got Olivia Nutsi's job. Yeah. See 19 previous episodes of this podcast if you'd like to know more. This is a fascinating story. it is told largely through the viewpoint of Federman's former chief of staff, Adam Gentleson. Federman, you remember, suffered a stroke in 2022 while he was running for Senate. He had a stay at Walter Reed the next year to treat what his office called clinical depression.

And Ben Terrace writes in New York Magazine, a year after his release from the hospital, Federman's behavior had so alarmed Jentelson that he resigned his position. in May 2024, he wrote an urgent letter to David Williamson, the medical director of the traumatic brain injury and neuropsychiatry unit at Walter Reed, who had overseen Federman's care at the hospital. Quote, I think John is on a bad trajectory and I'm really worried about him. The email began. If things didn't change, Jenselson continued, he was concerned Federman, quote, won't be with us for much longer. And the piece goes on from there. What did you make of this story in New York Mag this week?

morally, I'm not, I don't have any opposition to the existence of this piece. I think that it's a, I mean, it's interesting to think about Federman's place and the sort of political firmament and why we are more interested in this story about him than this story that probably could be written about a lot of other elected officials, maybe not to the same extreme. But there were certainly parts of it, taking at face value, there's certainly parts of it that are incredibly alarming, the sort of like disappearine, disappearing, and disappearing act. We chatted before the show about the refusing to buckle of seatbelt incident that was in that video that went viral subsequently.

Yeah, I believe he was refusing to put the buckle in a visible place for the flight crew. Which, I mean, if the internet tells us anything, is that airports are just the worst example, I mean, bring out the worst in every single human being, I guess, but still, I mean, he's got some

sort of reputation to uphold and having someone that close to you, being that worried about you, no matter what your station in life is, is always pretty significant. I don't know, what was your big takeaway? Well, I think to your question of why are we telling this story as opposed to other stories we could tell

in Congress and politics and outside of politics is because there was somebody to tell it. Adam Gentleson, former chief of staff, there wasn't that somebody to tell, let's say, a Biden story, would necessarily be the same story, but it was a Biden story last year, beginning of last year. There wasn't that person.

Well, here's the person who has correspondence, who has memories, and then Terrace went back and did a lot of other reporting, quoted other people from Federman's office, but I just think having that entry point is the huge part of it. Yeah. And I saw at least one ski talking about this because Terrace says in the story that he is friends in real life with Gentleson,

knew him in a professional capacity and then became friends with him. So the person who was asking questions, like, what are Jentelson's motives here? Can that be explored in the piece a little bit more? Here's somebody who, hey, when you become somebody's chief of staff, you are hitching your career to theirs. Then you wind up quitting. And is it worth exploring why you are telling this to a,

journalist, why you are coming out with this now beyond being concerned for Federman's health or concern that people need to know this about one of their elected representatives, senator in this case. So that's, I think, a fair question. And maybe he could have pressed on that a little bit more. I was really impressed with this story in a lot of ways because there's so much background music about John Federman. Yeah.

He has a stroke in 2022. And you have Republicans saying, he's not up to the job of senator and Democratic. saying the opposite thing. He goes into Walter Reed in 2023, and we have a lot of people saying, hey, this is very brave to come out and talk about this, destigmatizing mental health and stories about mental health. This is a good to put into the world. Then you have his controversial issue positions, or issue positions at least that piss off Democrats, some of the stuff he said about Donald Trump or stuff he said about the war in Gaza since he's been in the Senate. So you have all that background music. And then Terrace is coming in there and saying, you can think all of those

things individually, but I need you to pay attention to this part of the story. Hold a bunch of ideas in your head and then hold another idea in your head. I thought he did a really skillful job of putting that together. Yeah, I mean, the part about not being fit to serve, I mean, I think part maybe the most... Which he does not explicitly say... No, no, no, no, I'm saying, you had said that there were Republicans making that case after a stroke. And I think that kind of the one of the dynamic, and I mean that in the sort of very literal way, things about his,

his, his, his, his, uh, federalman's public persona is that that has sort of done a 180 in a lot of ways. Now there's like, you know,

left liberals that are, that are probably making the case more actively that he's not fit to serve for any variety of reasons. And you can draw lines to his, to his mental health because of pieces like this, you know, I do think that there, that part of that,

to answer my own question before, I think it would be naive to say that part of the hunger for a piece like this is that is that there is an audience of people that don't like John Federman, right, for any number of policy issues and that this is this sort of piece feeds that frenzy a little bit in a variety of ways. So that's, I mean, I think that's, that's what's interesting, but it doesn't, it doesn't take away the sort of like legitimacy of the piece at all. And I think that at the end of the day, you're absolutely right.

If there's someone willing to talk, I mean, people would probably be shocked at how few people there would be willing to talk to have to tell. I mean, not necessarily to this degree, but to sort of spill the tea on just about any other senator. I mean, you could put out an open casting call and your email address and you probably wouldn't get many responses. Don't you think after Joe Biden, that's also part of the why here? Yeah, that's a really good point. After Joe Biden, now there is some sort of a greater obligation from national news sources to cover these things. But you do get into sort of a very slippery slope of like at what point is like mental health. I mean, I do think that there's a little bit more of a moral or ethical cover to reporting on, you know, a sort of dementia or whatever, just the effects of old age as opposed to.

the effects of depression, you know? I mean, I think it's certainly a little bit trickier territory to handle that, to handle that in a respectful, in a suitable way. But yeah, I definitely, but there certainly is a connection. I mean, I think, I guess the fear is like, how far does that go, right? I mean, we just have, just have stringers out there just like trying to track down, trying to establish the mental acuity of every public official. I mean, maybe we should.

I was going to say, there's, you know, there's lesser things that could be doing than that. Yeah, for sure. It's funny. This story has such a classic long-form magazine structure where we start with, here is the reporter hearing these things, reporting these things out about a public figure. And then the last section is the sit down with the public figure. Now I am going to bring the things I have found to you. and we're going to have this scene at the end and Terrace winds up talking to Federman

for 30-ish minutes, it sounds like, and then he starts to bring these things up. He leaves the office for reasons that are not totally clear from the story and that is ushered back into the office of the Federman and Federman has kind of shut down and doesn't want to talk about this stuff anymore, at least in any length.

It's a really, really fascinating scene. A trivia question for you, and I guess full disclosure, I met Adam Gentleson when he was working for Harry Rehn's, and I was briefly granted an interview in Harry Reid's office for a Grantland story. Would you consider him one of your dear friends? I would not.

I would not. I would not consider him. It's not that kind of full disclosure. Okay. Number six for you, David. Scott Jennings, CNN's favorite conservative. Well, Donald Trump was doing his 100 Days victory tour in McComb County, Michigan. Yeah.

And he took a moment to summon a media friend up to the stage. This guy, really, I've watched him for years. I don't know him, but he likes Trump. Come here, Scott. Oh, CNN, this is the end of Scott. Who cares? Don't worry, we'll take care of you, Scott. Scott Jennings, really great.

Michigan. We were flying in here today. And I said, look at these Forbes. I got to get a farm in Michigan because when you own as many libs as I do, you got to put a place to put them all. Thank you all very much. What a clumsy dismount there from Scott Jennings.

It was a good thought. Did you love Trump's fairly astute analysis of Scott Jennings' place in CNN? He can defend me, but only so much. Yeah. It would be like MAGA adjacent rather than full MAGA? Yes. I thought that was mostly right.

I think it's probably true. It also probably could have been the way that Scott Jennings explained himself to President Trump that they previously met. You know, it's just like, you know, I'd like to say a lot more, Mr. President, but those, those ogres over there won't let me. He's an interesting character. I don't know how many profiles there have been published of him in the past several months, but it seems like a lot. It's also an interesting kind of career arc question for him where you're just like, you know, as soon as he, if he did accept Trump, offer to be taken care of by the MAGA establishment, he would probably be fine, but would also probably be undervaluing, undervaluing himself in the long run, you know, like.

His value is that he's that guy on CNN. Yeah. Yeah. And it's unclear, you know, unclear how, I mean, he's, he's, he's very good at that job. You know, he's obviously had some issues. We could go into the whole, you know, list of them during his time there. But, yeah, I mean, that's, that's really his value. His value was like, you know, whatever.

Newsmax host or something is probably, I mean, he might get a big paycheck on the way in, but we'd all forget who he was 20 minutes later. The thing that's interesting to me is that that little episode underlines the trickiness of bringing people like Scott Jennings onto a network like CNN. Because there is, you know, ideally what you want is somebody, if you're them and if you're committed to the idea of having pro, Trump people on your air.

Yeah. Which a lot of people would say like, please do not do this. But if you are committed to that ideal, you have to find somebody who's going to go out there, defend Trump, only go so far, as the president said, but be able to mix it up on Abby Phillips show and

be that guy. The problem is then they wind up on a stage with Trump. Yes. Because if you are pro-Trump, it seems like inevitably you become then a political actor yourself. Not somebody who is analyzing it. There's not even a fig leaf of,

okay, you know, I'm this guy and I just happen to like all of Donald Trump's policies or defend him reliably on CNN. Yeah. Now I'm on stage with him. Yep. And apparently Jennings is being sized up to run for Mitch McConnell's seat in Kentucky next year for Senate. So there's also that.

He tweeted out a photo of himself with Trump on Air Force One and said, something big is coming. Stay tuned. And Trump was holding up a piece of paper. that was blurred out. I don't know what was on the blurred out piece of paper, but we might have Senator Scott Jennings. Well, that makes a little bit more sense.

I mean, I was going to say there's been, you know, Fox News talking heads, Sean Hannity notably before that have shown up Trump rallies and actually contributed to the rally. One would have thought that Scott Jennings probably would have been smart to just sort of accept the applause of the crowd and sit back down or whatever. But like, you know,

He didn't go so far with that hilarious owning the libs bit that I would have assumed there was something else. I'm glad that we got back to Kentucky here. I don't think he would be my choice for the next senator from that state. No, the Reverend Shoemaker might not be giving his political endorsement. I don't want to speak for him. The Reverend Shoemaker did attend Mitch McConnell inauguration party or two back in the day, just for the record. very ecumenical fellow, my dad. Thank you. Full disclosure.

Number seven, David, what's happening at Metal Arc Media? I know something's happening because Dan Lebitard came on his show today with a blow-up elephant on the set behind him. A what? A blow-up elephant? A blow-up elephant. And the elephant was chiron, the elephant in the room. I thought it was like a labor protest. Like they have the big rat. Like, you know, is there a deeper meaning behind the elephant?

I guess that's it. I assume Levitart's a union shop, though. I don't know totally on that one. The elephant in the room, or actually the elephants in the room, will be like field biologists here, David, and identify them. Stugats. Mm-hmm. John Weiner. Barrett Sports Media reports that he is stepping back from the Lebitard program and in the midst of negotiations.

a deal under which he would make a certain number of appearances on the show for the year. Stugat's obviously longtime co-host and co-conspirator of Levitars. According to Barrett Sports Media, he's also taking his podcast, God bless football, out the door with him. Yeah. John Skipper, a co-founder of Metal Arc Media, the ESPN president under whom Lebitard flourished, both on the radio and as a television guy. he is leaving Metal Arc

according to Ryan Glassspeakle at front office sports Glass Spiegel also adds that Metal Arc may pivot away to some extent, not totally, but to some extent from the documentaries

that they've done toward being more of a podcasting first company. Yeah. Perhaps just upping the percentages there. It's also been news of Levitard cast members like Jessica Smetana

leaving Miami, still going to be on the show. Lucy Rodin also leaving Miami and creating her own YouTube channel for content. So I don't have much here other than to just put it out there to point you toward the elephant in the room.

Do you have anything to add about the what's going on at MetaLark Media? No, not really a lot. I mean, I've been sort of watching with interest everything else. I told you before the Skipper thing, I dismissed a little bit when I first told that story because I just assumed, you know, he's a media executive. He's probably on to something else. But it does seem like in conjunction with everything else that there's a, you know, so it feels like we're sort of headed an odd direction.

I'm sure there's some people listen to this will question our point of view. I don't think anybody here sees metal larkas competition. I mean, we're still firmly entrenched in the more job opportunities, the better camp as far as our friends and colleagues go. So I hope things are still going to be moving ahead there. but there's obviously there's there's there's something more a foot i don't know i mean do you have do you have any take i don't i mean other than to add lebiturte's tweet here he says our audio video network is thriving and we look forward to sharing good news shortly in that regard he's also said their draft king's deal is ending in a few months from a far when i looked at that network at least

the podcast arm of it i always thought of it like this like okay you have the lebitard show which is its own weather system sure and it's got all these people on the show. And I just expected that the people on that show would then go off and create other hit podcasts under the lebitard umbrella. Maybe Pablo and Torre now has slid into that number two slottes. This is our other big podcast here. Yeah. But now it seems like the other, those people, the people that you'd expect to be doing that, they're, if not leaving the network entirely, they're doing work other places or their jobs are changing in significant ways. Yeah. So I don't know. I don't know about the future.

I just thought I'd put it on your radar there. Number eight, David, some NBA playoff notes to close us out. Okay. Did you see what happened after the T. Wolves beat the Lakers in game five of their first round playoff series? Wait, what happened? I'm sure that I did, but I don't even know what you're referring to. Game was here in L.A. and Anthony Edwards took a victory lap, and I mean a lap. Oh, yeah.

Outside the arena post game. Mm-hmm. He was, you know, celebrating. He was talking to anybody standing by with a camera phone. At one point, he said, good guys don't die in this movie. Morris Chestnut died in this movie. Yeah. And then answered when somebody came by and clarified that Boys in the Hood was not his favorite movie ever.

It was Matilda from 1996. That's real. Would just like to endorse this as the former producer of the big picture. I would like to endorse Anthony Edwards's ball knowledge when it comes to film. That is a great fan. Nice work, Anthony Edwards. You made a fan in me. I sometimes muse aloud about Chokey, which was the child punishment device in the Matilda

film and presumably the Matilda book when I'm at home. You know, just to throw that out there. Chokey. Matilda is very good. I didn't watch it until I had kids. And it definitely is a solid movie. It's an interesting thing, too, to add. this to our consumption of the NBA.

I think we take this for granted now because we're just so used to like, here's something on social media. Here's my life, as Bobby was talking about earlier broadcast. We just like imagine hearing about this in the pre-social media era. Like, oh man, he actually walked outside the stadium and was just fielding questions from onlookers. In an opposing stadium on the road.

Like that's part of who Anthony Edwards is, but not being able to see it, you'd be like, oh man, that must have been awesome. Now we just take it for grand and we get on like, oh, look at that. He's talking Matilda. For that same game,

we had the JJ Redick press conference walkout. Oh, yeah. Got asked about his rotations or non-rotations. Played five guys in the second half of game four. I mean, listen, the framing of the question, you can understand why that would feel like it was unnecessarily sort of embarrassing.

Okay, you can, but dude, you're the head coach of the Lakers. No, no, no, no, I totally agree. I totally agree. I think that there are some people who have been sort of performatively like, I don't know what, like, why on earth would JJ have been upset with that? Like, you know, getting upset's normal. Walking out's not normal. Do you get, by the way, you do get, I assume, fined by the NBA if you leave early from

a press conference. I'm not sure about to leave early. Because otherwise, why wouldn't every coach be doing this every night? Just like answer one question, just be like, yeah. Or just take offense. Like, did you see the way he spoke to me? And then just go on out and, you know, let your cigarette or whatever, you know? I was thinking that with Greg Popovich, because Greg Popovich, as far as I knew, hung around for those press conferences.

Yeah. You would just get the really, you know, sometimes you'd ask a question. You would not get the answer. Yeah. Somebody told me that who's interviewed JJ told me that one of the things about it, but maybe this is Popovician, at least in a certain way, is that he actually. actually listens to the questions. Uh-huh. He listens to what you say.

We underestimate the extent that athletes and coaches hear part of a question. Yeah. And then just go to their subroutine and pick, do I give answer number one, answer number two or answer number three? That's just my most generic answer to this. Sure. And when you have a coach who actually listens, that can get you some great answers. There's a certain respect afforded in that.

probably also get you more walkouts or more short answers because they can be offended because they're actually listening to your words. Yeah. Something to think about. It's true. I mean, you could tell the question itself was so awkward.

I mean, not so awkward, but it was awkward enough that I could, maybe I'm reading too much into it, seeing myself in the reporter's position, but it felt like he was trying to add an unnecessary layer of interest to a very basic question. instead of being like what was up with the substitutions is that going to continue that's the that's the normal way to do it's like what was your thinking yeah and only playing five players instead of saying that he made it about assistant coaches and whether he had a game minutes manager on the bench or like whatever and the way it came out was yeah i guess a little bit insulting um but yeah i mean come on i don't know i kind of would rather he just he had stayed out stay out there just to see what the next level of like j j j reddick

anger would have looked like. Someone has asked him a question. He just flies off the handle. That could have been fun. All right. Number nine, David, around this time of year, we hear a lot about efficiency rating

with regard to the NBA playoffs. Well, after the Lakers went out in five games, Brian Winhorse was on get up. And he was asked for his reaction to the Lakers taking a fall. He had a two-minute answer. I'm not going to play the whole thing here,

but he had two-minute answer. And dude, this was the highest efficiency rating I have seen for a journalist on an ESPN studio show. I mean, he got to Luca, he got to LeBron, he got to the substitution patterns, he got to Maxi Kleba, he got to everything in two minutes. Here's Wendy on Get Up. Secondly, and I don't mean this in a personal way, JJ Reddick coached very immaturely in this series. He was still seething and upset about the previous games to the point where Reggie Miller said on the broadcast last night, he had to try to calm him down in the pregame meeting

because JJ was acting, you know, frankly childishly. So good. So good. Yeah. He was just, again, this was pure efficiency. You're not taking a lot of shots, but you're hitting every shot you take. That was an incredible performance. Anytime Windhorst is on with a, yeah, like a...

Big moment. He is level to go off, like the best scores in the league. Other sports media news, round ball rock. It's going to be on the NBA on NBC next fall. This is like the least surprising thing ever, but there were like five updates over the course of the last couple of months. I don't know. They're still in negotiations, which I just absolutely tuned out.

But I will tell you, Roundball Rock. John Tesh's anthem is going to be on NBC next fall. Also, Rick Cordella. whose NBC Sports as president said something really interesting to Alex Sherman, our friend over on CNBC. He said that Sunday night basketball next year, or this next season, I should say,

is going to have the player intros in the stadium. Oh, like the announcer intros will be broadcast. Is that the point? Is that what you're saying? Doesn't that feel a little Sunday night footbally? Here's my name. Here's my college.

Yeah. We're personalizing this a little bit. bit more. Yeah, sure. We're selling what we have. Yeah. Which maybe the old NBA partners have been guilty of not doing quite enough. Yeah, but I mean, come on.

I mean, basketball has always been acknowledged to be the sort of most, the sport in which the players are most human, right? I mean, they're not in masks. You know, they're not in giant pads. They're just right out there. And they've benefited from that, you know, in terms of just all the press that you can get from being a. professional athlete or whatever.

So yeah, I mean, it makes a lot of sense. And also just in terms of the kind of nostalgia that we're talking about there, it fits in with the round ball rock but all. Because when we all think of player announcements, we think of, you know, the championship bulls, right?

Absolutely. And I just think there's something smart about not assuming that everyone is a ringer NBA podcaster. Yes. You need, it's a Sunday night. Although a lot of people are. Are there many,

Many people are, but it's a Sunday night and you need to get people to watch a regular season NBA game. Yeah. You do everything you can. Here are these people. Here are why you should care about them. And why you should watch us instead of watching whatever's on HBO tonight. Yeah.

All right. Number 10, David, media piss test. Yes. You know, I love this. This is when one of our friends in the media says something is like something else, but on steroids. Mm-hmm. We had one inside the Bill Simmons Media Group from the legendary Boston Globe reporter and columnist Bob Ryan. Jason Tatum at 6 feet 10 is the most all-around skilled player, the Celtics have ever had at 6 feet 10.

This guy, it's funny because he's like Pierce on steroids because, you know... There you go. Paul Pierce on steroids from the authority on steroids. Celtics basketball. That you're going to say on steroids. Yes, from the authority on Celtics basketball. I love that one too because he kind of is like Paul Pierce on steroids. All right, coming up in 30 seconds, David, the Atlantic's Ashley Parker tells us how you can

cold call the president and score an interview in the Oval Office. First, let's do the overworked Twitter joke of the week where we celebrate a gag that was so obvious that all of media Twitter made it at exactly the same time. Send your nominees to at the press box pod where they are always, always. gratefully received. On Thursday, it was announced that Trump was ousting, only in journalism, Michael Waltz, his national security advisor and the guy who accidentally was responsible for the Signalgate controversy.

Yep. It's an overwork Twitter joke to write. Mike Waltz has left the chat. Thanks to Steve Sademan. If you thought Trump is still sporting fruit of the loomer, congrats. you made the overword Twitter joke of the week. Wasn't it announced that he was retiring or he was stepping down to be an ambassador now?

Yeah, he got reassigned. Seems like a nice Washington save face. We actually had you pegged for a different job. Yeah. Not being in the White House and advising on national security, but being at the UN. That's what we'd really like. David, cold calling your subject is a time-honored journalistic ritual.

it's rarely used with the president of the United States. But that's how the Atlantics Ashley Parker contacted Donald Trump as she began reporting the new cover story she wrote with Michael Scher. She's here to tell us about the story and the reporting. Ashley, welcome to the press box. Thank you guys for having me. All right. Let's start with the reporting. How did you come to call Donald Trump on his cell phone?

So I will just say this was not our original or. or necessarily ideal or preferred means for trying to reach the president. As we outlined in the piece, and sort of the way these two, ultimately two interviews came together is a bit of a journey. So I'll start and then you can cut me off when you get bored. But we went in the front door the traditional way. We wrote a proposal. We explained we're doing a cover story for the June issue of the Atlantic.

This is, you know, the story we want to tell. We'd like an interview with the president. Here's why. And his aides came back. And to our surprise, but not actually our immense surprise. they said, yes, the president, you know, we'll sit down with you in the Oval Office, interview for your story. So it gets tentatively put on the schedule for a Friday. And we, just to give you a sense of how much we really believe this is going to happen,

I was supposed to be visiting my younger sister in Mexico City. And I, like, I canceled the trip because that was a week we're going to interview the president. On Monday, basically, as the interview gets put on his schedule and known to a wider circle in his orbit and outer orbit, somebody basically who does not, and we don't know who this person is, but somebody who does not like the Atlantic, does not like us, does not want him to do the interview, goes to him and shows him things I have said publicly and things I have written that they know will upset him. And so the way the interview essentially gets called off is in a truth social post around 6 p.m. on Monday night attacking me and my co-author Michael Shearer by name. So we understand in a very public fashion we're not

getting this interview. So we continue reporting the piece. And in the course of our reporting, we come into the president's personal cell phone number. So at this point, we figure, why not call him, you know, to talk to him for the piece. And we were really originally calling to try to explain to him, you know, we think you have the wrong idea about us. We think you'd really enjoy actually bringing us into the Oval Office. So 10.45 a.m. on a Saturday, Trump is in Bedminster. We, and specifically my co-author, Michael Shear, calls him. It's an unknown number to the president.

Trump picks up and basically says, who's calling? And Michael and the president talk for 20 minutes. So we then have about a 20-minute interview with the president. And the president, of course, when Michael calls, he knows who Michael is and why Michael is calling because he's just called off an interview with us. He's just done it in a highly public fashion where he's a tax. us both, so we get this interview. So we then, we're sort of finishing the piece. We're coming up on the conclusion. This time, Michael and I both call him again on a weekend morning. This time he's in

Mar-a-Lago. We call him. He doesn't pick up and we leave a voicemail. That night, he goes to a UFC fight in Miami. And we knew there was a chance he would call us back because we left a message. So we both have our ringers on. We wake up the next morning. And at 1.28 a.m., Michael has a miss call from the president of the United States. This is UFC 314 for the enthusiasts out there. Yes, UFC 314. That's correct. I'm just like, Michael, how did you sleep?

Like, what is wrong with you? How did you sleep through this? But so we have this miscall from the president. We then, we're finishing the piece. We make another appeal to the president's aides. Will he please talk to us? And we get a message back from the president through an aid. in the message, because for whatever reason, Trump doesn't particularly like me. The message is

for Michael, not Ashley. So the message for Michael, not Ashley, basically says he's not going to talk with us, but, you know, maybe if this piece is fair, he'll talk with the Atlantic in the future. And by the way, he won in a landslide. What else is there to say? What can we possibly write? So getting to the end of the story. So we finish the piece. We basically write a 12,000-word cover story for the Atlantic. It has to close. We close it. It basically goes to presses on a Monday. That Wednesday, we got a call from the White House saying, the president wants to speak with you. Can you come in, you know, can you come into the Oval Office tomorrow? And we say, of course, we can. But we say, by the way, we're not actually sure that we'll be able to update the print story.

It's literally gone to the presses. You know, we can do the interview, put it online. The Atlantic has a robust website where, frankly, most of the copy runs. And the White House says, no, the president wants to be in the print issue. He wants to be part of the cover story. If he's not part of the cover story, you can't come in and interview him. So then we have like a real life stop the press's moment. We get the story back. We go into the, oh, and in the meantime, a signal gate, of course, has happened. So Trump is very aware of our editor-in-chief, Jeff Goldberg. And so in the process, before this interview occurs, you know, we got a text message from the White House that says, like, oh, and by the way, the president says Jeff can join if he wants. So we are all preparing now me, Jeff and Michael to go into the

Oval Office Thursday afternoon to interview the president. We're kind of working on questions. And that morning he sends out another truth social posts now attacking all three of us by name, saying he's having us in to the Oval as a, I think he describes it as a bit of a challenge to himself, whatever precisely that means. And then we go into the Oval Office. We're We were told to expect 20 minutes. We got an hour. And then we leave the Oval Office about 4 p.m. on Thursday. And then the piece goes to press at 5 a.m. that morning.

So we just kind of came back to the office and crashed. Well, first, I guess I got to ask her off the top. What is, do you find it hard to do your job when you're widely regarded as a, is not capable of doing fair and balance interviews? Or is that, do you, I'm just kidding. But, um, did, do, when, Trump, do you have, like, I know I'm sure I know you have alerts set up for Trump. It's true social posts.

All reporters do. And you pay very close attention. When your name checked directly, do you immediately know that your day is going to be different? What, how does that, how does that change the course of, like, the following 24 hours? So it's interesting. I have been attacked while he has been president. I've been attacked by name by President Trump three times. The first time was in the first term for a story I did at the Washington Post that he didn't like.

He attacked me and my co-author Phil Rucker. And then twice, those two times I just outlined in the course of this cover story. And what's interesting was the first time when I was attacked by him, it was on Twitter, the second two times drawn true social. It was also just when this sort of behavior still felt kind of shocking. And so the first time, I mean, I just heard from, I mean, both times I should say I was very lucky to be at the Washington Post and now at the Atlantic where I work for organizations that fully have my back and support me and have security teams and sort of all proper procedures in place. But beyond that, the first time, it felt like the ripples were so huge. I heard from in a weird way, once I got over the shock, it was kind of nice because I heard from everyone in my life, right? like the guy I went to homecoming with my freshman year and girls from sleepaway camp and, you know,

childhood friends and colleagues and coworkers. It was sort of like a great Forrest Gump way to just like catch up with everyone briefly. And this time, it was interesting. It felt like the ripple effects didn't, based on, you know, kind of this anecdotal outreach I got. It felt like truth social doesn't have the power that Twitter does. And also we sort of get the idea at this point, you know, eight years, 10 years in, that Trump doesn't like journalists or pretends not to like them or what have you, that he'll attack you by name. And maybe it's interesting that today, it's me and tomorrow it's someone at the New York Times. But just, and also in a world where the federal government is getting gutted, right? And people are not sure about what toys they'll be able to buy their

kids for Christmas and what's happening with their 401 keys. And if you live in D.C., what's happening with your government jobs? It just sort of felt much more like a collective shrug, I think. David and I have talked a lot on this podcast about how hard it is for a news consumer to keep up with everything that's going on in the world, even if they want to, even if they're diligent about it. Turns out in this piece you report that overwhelming people was actually part of Team Trump strategy on day one of this new administration?

Oh, 100%. Yeah, it was very deliberate. We have a quote in there from, you know, someone, an advisor who kind of, that sticks with me because, you know, we talk about a lot of the shock and awe, and in the first term, the fire hose felt a little bit inadvertent. There was still a fire hose, but it felt like they were just cascading from one crisis to the next. And this time, the way they just, to give you an example, although this could be applied, you know, all the way up through 100 days where we're now talking, you know, they said on day one, we went in, right? And we knew that if we just, we were going to

do the immigration executive orders. But if we just did the immigration executive orders, all the stories would be about we're such horrible people, we're racist, we're separating parents and children, were bad people. So then we also did all the J6 pardons, where we knew if we just did the J6 pardons, you know, it would be a bunch of bad news cycles. In addition to those two things, he also gave the traditional inauguration address. Then he gave essentially a second inauguration speech to the congressional luncheon. Then he held an inauguration rally. Then he repaired to the Oval Office. where he took more than 100 questions, I believe, from the assembled media. And then he and Melania and her designer gowns and him in a tux went out to the inaugural balls.

And they said this was planned for weeks. And the idea was basically like to the media, screw you. You have to choose, right? You can cover one of these things, but you can't cover all of them. I think I've compared it on this podcast to the old Pat Riley-Nicks coaching strategy, you've commit five fouls every time you go down court and they can only call one. But it's interesting all of this static. I mean, it's all real things, but it's just so much floating in the air.

It feels like there's a direct connection that I can't put my finger on to your coverage. I mean, and it was an incredibly long piece with a lot of really good information about Trump's governing policies. But the stories that come out, and this is the Jeffrey Goldberg story too, seem to be about the telephone call, right? I mean, is there something to the, I don't want to say ineptitude is like a, is like a, you know, just to knock the guy. But, you know, the oddity of dealing with this president becomes the news cycle as opposed to the actual news. How do you balance those things in your reportage? I mean, so first of all, you're right. It was a very long story. So thank you both for reading, reading it all, or at least pretending to. But I think, you know,

I think you're totally right, but I think you can do both. I mean, we, so for this piece, we set out to tell a very specific, hopefully definitive story that explains that A reminds people, because in the reporting, I needed to be reminded myself just how far Trump had fallen after the 2020 election and after J6, like just how deep in the political wilderness he was. and the idea that he would come back and let alone be president again seemed inconceivable. There was a period where that seemed utterly inconceivable, even for his allies, even for Republicans, some of whom were hoping that would be what happened.

We wanted to tell the story of how he came back, how he did it, what lessons he learned along the way and internalized, and how those lessons are informing the way he is wielding power now to essentially bend the city, the country, and the world to his will. And I think we did that. And I think for the people who have the time or the interest to kind of sit with a magazine or print out the article and read the 12,000 words, you can actually hear a pretty substantive tale full of reporting. But the flip side is there's plenty of people and there's nothing wrong with this who sort of take away. Isn't it wild that the president? And it turned out, we asked him in the Oval Office.

Did you mean to call Michael back or was it a pocket dial? And the president actually made a joke. He said, oh, it seems like another signal gate thing. But there are people who, you know, take away, like, isn't it wild that reporters, and if reporters have it, so do probably foreign leaders, right? And business CEOs have the president's personal cell phone number. And isn't it wild that the president is butt dialing reporters at 1.30 in the morning after UFC 314? And the answer to those questions is also yes. And I think that also says something revealing about the president.

It's not the full story we're telling. But if you're aware that the president is basically taking calls from unknown numbers, that even just that little tidbit does tell you something about how he operates, what potential security concerns there may be, et cetera. Yeah. Yeah, I'm old enough to remember the news cycle about Obama having to give up his iPhone and how much of a problem that was for him. So am I. And I'm old enough to remember, I believe it was like a Blackberry. He wanted to bring in his personal. Oh, that's right.

To the Oval, yeah. So we are all old is the takeaway there. I want to ask you about Trump's wilderness period in 2021, Ashley, because you remind us that not only were Republicans staying away from Donald Trump, he couldn't even get booked on Fox and Friends during that period. What are one or two things that happen that get Donald Trump from there to a place where he can win the nomination and then the presidency again? Sure.

So two things. I mean, one is we all remember Kevin McCarthy. goes down to Mara Lago and there's a photo and everyone's like, wait a minute, I thought, you know, Kevin McCarthy was someone during January 6 who was calling Trump yelling at him in the moment and then in the aftermath was sort of privately suggesting maybe he should resign and not serve out the final two weeks of his term. So the Kevin McCarthy story was known. We reported a bit more detail. But one thing that struck me was when I went back and reported it was just how soon Kevin McCarthy appeared with him. I think in our collective minds, you think like a couple months later, Kevin McCarthy ends up at Mar-a-Lago.

It is a week. It is exactly seven days after Joe Biden is inaugurated that Kevin McCarthy gets invited to Mar-a-Lago by Trump, shows up. Trump leaks it to the New York Times. Trump kind of joking, asked Kevin McCarthy who leaked it. And Kevin says, like, I know who did. Or we both know who did. You did. And Trump says, well, it's good for both of us. But it was instructive to remember that as far as he had fallen and is still, as you point out, as far as he had to go, he still is not booked on Fox News for a while. Like that first step towards political resurrection with Kevin McCarthy came seven days after Biden was inaugurated, which to me is just kind of wild to re-remember. But the other thing we learned was that some of these things that, you know, these banishment things that Republicans and Fox News and the Democrats thought would be, the end of Trump actually only served to make him stronger. We sort of describe it in our piece as these would-be vampire slayers in trying to, in trying and

failing to drive a stake directly through his heart only enhanced him. But, you know, we could talk about the court cases and the indictments, but one thing I think is actually pretty instructive is the Fox News stuff, right? Rupert Murdoch sends an email, says we want to make Trump a non-person. And initially, Trump and his team thinks, this is going to be horrible. We can't even get on box and friends. But it turns out to be a blessing in disguise because this whole right-wing media sphere springs up to sort of give him coverage when the mainstream media and even the conservative media won't. And Charlie Kirk now is a household name, but he wasn't then.

And so this vacuum allowed all of these super far-right MAGA influencers and people to sort of build their brands and help fuel Trump. also led to Trump trying to appeal to the only people who in that period were interested in him. So by the time he starts to come back, he has a much more MAGA, hard right ideology, because that's who he's appealing to. And he has a much bigger platform-based because by the time Fox finally has him back on and MSNBC and CNN, you know, now Charlie Kirk has millions of followers and all of these influencers you've never heard of because they're putting out content that Trump is saying that no one else will take, whether it's right side broadcasting or some of these mega influencers on, you know, social media, they have now huge followings that allow the president to go around

traditional media and that is still beneficial to him. That's really interesting because I think for people that watch, you know, people that were aware of Charlie Kirk before that point, it seems a little bit linear and organic, but the fact that Trump sort of deliberately or accidentally created the platforms that will, I mean, that ended up propelling him to another presidency. I mean, do you think is it that clear of a line that his time in the wilderness helped create the environment for him to be reelected? I mean, I think it is organic.

But I think all of these platforms and influencers would not have sprung up sort of with the numbers and the following and the influence they had, had there not been this vacuum to fill. A couple questions about interviewing Trump before we go. David and I can barely keep it together to do an interview with two of us. You've got three top journalists in the Oval Office with Donald Trump. How did you divide up the questions? How did you figure out who was going to ask what to the president?

So the truth is we didn't really. I mean, we had a list of questions and a list of topics we wanted to get through. And it was, as you'll see, it was kind of a mix of we felt we should ask some news of the day. So we're asking, you know, what's the fate of Mike Waltz? Obviously, we wish he had told us then that he was about to fire him in four days, what was going on with Pete Hague, Seth and the tariff stuff. But we also had these kind of broader, more like existential themes for our story that we wanted to fill in. And although Trump is famously not super introspective, we did kind of want to talk about, you know, one of the animating themes of our piece, which is his ability to, for instance, bend reality. to his will and, you know, sort of will into existence, what he wants it to be. So we had that going in. And then I will say, you know, Michael and I, we actually arrived at the Atlantic this year. We'd worked together for nearly a decade at the Washington Post.

So we worked together very well. The Atlantic is also like the Washington Post, incredibly collegial, you know, so it was somewhat natural. I will say one thing that was interesting is, I mean, first of all, Jeff Goldberg is the editor-in-chief of the Atlantic. So we sort of like the heavy in the room. But also, you know, we came in and there was a little bit of game respects game from Trump to Jeff Goldberg because of this Signalgate story. And it was fascinating. In the truth social, the president posted on the morning of our interview, he mentioned kind of in passing, doesn't like Jeff Goldberg, but that Signalgate was somewhat of a success or somewhat successful. So at one point, Jeff asked him about that.

You know, what did you mean? Did you mean we were somewhat successful because we revealed operational security flaws in your administration that you've now. taken steps to fix. And the answer from the president was so revealing. His answer was like, no, no, what? No, it was successful because you guys owned the news cycle, right? You guys broke through and got publicity. And he was right. I mean, it was wild to be at the Atlantic that week where it feels like nothing stops the news cycle. It was like three days where the entire world was just talking about this huge Atlantic scoop. But Trump is like a frustrated media executive, you know, if he wasn't a president. And so he's sort of like,

respected that. And so, you know, it was very clear. And the last thing I'll say is I think, I think people are often surprised that, like, the way I view Trump, having covered him since 2015, is he is someone who is always trying to win the minute, the hour, the day, the person directly in front of him. So people are like, well, what do you mean? He attacked you so viciously twice on social media. And then he brought you in. And when his age tried to cut off the discussion, he said, no, no, you know, and ended up giving us a full hour. And it was a very, very respectful, ultimately, back and forth for that hour. And that's because, again, Trump is always just trying to win over, almost always trying to win over the people directly in front of him. And in this

moment, it was very clear from the moment we walked in that he wanted Jeffrey Goldberg, most especially to understand him. He wanted Jeff to understand how he thinks he's saving humanity with his presidency. He wanted to woo and went over and be charming to the three of us, but especially to Jeff and make sure Jeff understood his point of view. So in some ways, the interview was oriented towards that dynamic. And so Jeff asked, I think, more questions than Michael or I and was also able in a way that I appreciated to push back on Trump and kind of have that when Trump said things that sort of defied credulity, you know, Jeff would say like,

well, I just don't believe that's true. So that was sort of the dynamic of that interview. last question about the phone call. I mean, you leave it to the reader to draw their own conclusions, I think a lot. But as someone who's been doing this for a while and with a lot of experience and a lot of experience people around you, the thing about the process questions about getting the interview approved and then getting it taken away on truth social and then him accepting the call, can you give us some perspective of just how odd this process is? I mean, is that I can only assume that is entirely unusual.

Yes, that's correct. That's entirely unusual. And I will say, at the end, I was surprised that we ultimately got the Oval Office interview that we had sort of first sought, you know, two months prior. By the end of the piece, I wasn't counting on that. But as we write in the piece, you know, we know with this White House in particular and this president in particular, that his first word is often not his final word, which is why when the interview was, you know, quite publicly taken away from us,

we sort of didn't stop. We kind of proceeded on two tracks. We proceeded on the track of like, we still have this story to do. So we're still going to report it out and talk to everyone around him and as many people as we can and write it without counting on, you know, having his voice in it. But we also proceeded on the track that there's a world in which he will change his mind. And, you know, we may get an Oval Office interview or we may get a phone call or we may be able to get the president's cell phone number and call him. So we were kind of operating on two tracks. And in the end, in this case, for our purposes, we got the best of both worlds.

And I also say I kind of thought about this. It was in a weird way, not that I would ever want to get an interview set up and then canceled and then attacked on Truth Social twice. But it was a blessing in disguise in certain ways because since for much of this process, we were not counting on having, say, an hour-long interview with the president of the United States, it really forced us to rely on our own reporting. And so at the end, when we got the interview, it sort of felt like icing on the cake, but we already were proud of our story and our details and our narrative without that.

All right, Ashley Parker, the new story in the Atlantic is called Donald Trump is enjoying this. Ashley, thanks for coming on the press box. Yeah, thank you guys for having me. All right, it is time for a feature that you can always access via a cold call. Oh, or a midnight text after a UFC event, or even a telegram. It's time for David Shoemaker guests as the strained pun headline. Yeah. Our last headline about Cade Cunningham's place in the minds of Knicks fans was Ready,

villain and able. Today's headline comes to us from alert listener P. Marty. It's from The Guardian, David. Lindell TV. Lindel TV. This is the new media venture from My Pillow guy, Mike Lindell. Remember, one of their correspondents was briefly the holder of the worst question ever asked at the White House. Absolutely, yeah. Now, I want you to think of the elements you need to make a bed.

as you ponder, what was the Guardian's strained pun headline? Wait, what's the subject? Just the existence of Lindell TV? Yeah, just kind of a curtain raiser, a profile, if you will, of Lindel TV.

Pillow, blanket. Not the blanket. You got the pillow. What else you got? Sheets. Ah, between, uh, uh,

this is a program. That's a podcast somewhere. So it is a sheet show. Sheet show. Oh, there we go. Sheet show. He is David Shoemaker.

I'm Brian Curtis. Blackson Magic by Bobby Wagner. Joel Anderson's here Thursday, Shoemaker. You and I will have more lukewarm takes about the media next Monday. See you then, David. See you later, Brian.