The Press Box - That Martin Shkreli Story. Plus, Sportscaster Jim Gray.

Episode Date: December 21, 2020

Bryan Curtis and David Shoemaker break down the Elle magazine story about journalist Christie Smythe and "pharma bro" Martin Shkreli's relationship (2:50). Then the Press Box gang talks holiday carols, food, and traditions (26:32) before sportscaster Jim Gray joins to talk about his book ‘Talking to GOATs’ (36:52). Plus, The Overworked Twitter Joke of the Week and David Shoemaker Guesses the Strained-Pun Headline. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

David, a standby of local news this time of year is the story that the shopping mall is really, really busy. What I want to know is what is local news going to do if the shopping mall is vacated because of COVID? I don't know how it is where you're living. I mean, I know there's different rules in different states. In the great state of New Jersey, or at least I can speak for the Quaker Bridge Mall over here about where I live, it is packed. And it's a packed at the point where like there are moments. where we drive by and we say, oh,

wouldn't it be nice to go walk around and J.C. Penny for 30 minutes? And before we can talk ourselves into it, we look and realize that the parking lot is absolutely packed, and we just start speeding in the opposite direction. I think that probably there will still be stories, at least over here, about them all being busy,

and they'll just feel more like the newscasts from like 28 days later or something than, you know, the actual, the upbeat, like everything. is fine. I mean, apparently the economy, I don't mean to make light of the economic plate of the, you know, owners of, you know, the Banana Republic and the Orange Julius. But the mall is packed and it makes me sort of scared. I want every press box listener to note how David in order to preserve his working class bona fide said he was going to walk around JCPenny rather than Nordstrom or Macy's. that's where David's walking around

gonna get some of those goldtoe socks and those arrow shirts David By the way I'm literally wearing the gold toad socks right now Although I believe they came from a landsend outlet And uh and um Yeah No I listen I'll go to all the shops I think the actual allure of JCPenney

Was that no one would be there then we realized Somebody might be there so My move for the local news pivot is pivot to The airport is not busy Right? Because that's their other story this time of year like the airport is packed. There's delays. It's crazy out there. How about a guy

wearing a mask standing in front of the terminal saying nobody's here? Flights are wide open. Coming up on today's show that Martin Schrelli's story everybody's talking about. David Eric and I share our thoughts on the holidays. Plus sportscaster Jim Gray, all that more on the press box.

A part of the ringer podcast network. Oh, media consumers. Brian Curtis and David Shoemaker here. David, remember when you were a kid, and your parents would let you open one present before Christmas Day? Yeah, yeah, usually they would pick which one it was, but I do remember that. It's one of the most exciting moments of the year. Media Twitter opened that present last night.

It is Stephanie Clifford's L Magazine Story, the journalist and the pharma bro, which has lit up Twitter and shows no signs of stopping at this moment. So I figure we should, we have to talk about. We really do. Yeah. Oh, for sure. And maybe we begin just by telling the story a little bit. Go ahead.

If people have not read it. Okay, here's where we start. Christie Smyth was a reporter with Bloomberg News. She was covering the trial of Martin Schrelli. Now, if you don't remember the name, Schrelly is the guy, Clifford writes, quote, who increased the price of a life-saving drug by 5,000 percent over night and made headlines for buying a one-off Wu-Tang Clan album for a reported two million.

That guy. He's one of those people that was made for the modern media age. And you could, I guess, interpret that a lot of ways, but I mean it very narrowly in that he appeared and kind of evolved five steps in the blink of an eye so that if you weren't on Twitter, the moment that his name was first mentioned, you already felt like you were behind in the story. You thought that he must have been a figure that you just had missed for a year or something because he was so ingrained almost the moment you heard his name.

There was that gallery of people that felt like they were created for Old Gawker. Yeah. He was one of them, not only because of what he did, but because he was then trolling people on Twitter, including reporters. Mm-hmm. And sort of had this whole online persona that was either separate or highly related to his actual persona. We'll get to that in just a second.

But Smyth, with Bloomberg News, is covering Schrelli's legal travails. Then he starts asking her for advice. And then he starts doing a thing that powerful people often do, which is he hints that he might sit down for an interview with her. Or in this case, even cooperate with a book project. Now, motives of people doing that differ, but one thing it tends to do is put reports. orders on ice because they're not going to criticize you or write bad things about you sometimes

if they think there's a possibility of them getting an interview down the line. Yeah. And as Smythe admits in the article, maybe I was being charmed by a master manipulator. Now, from that point, Schrelly and Smy's relationship becomes deeper. Smyth goes to Schrelli's house to listen to his Wu-Tang album. As one does. As one does. She defends his trolling on Twitter.

and after he is sent to jail, Clifford writes, Smyth texted and emailed Schrelli's friends asking if he had his medications and arranging for someone to retrieve his cat, which is not something journalists typically do for their subjects. It goes on from there. Smyth quits her job at Bloomberg.

She separates from her husband. She becomes Schrelly's girlfriend while he's in prison. That belief in himself, she says, although it may seem delusional at times, it draws you in. I don't know if everything he was saying was true, but maybe like 1% is, and that's awesome on its own. So we can probably press the pause button right here.

This is sort of act one of the story. Yeah. Journalist is covering this guy. Journalist starts a relationship with this guy, and this guy happens to be a very notorious guy. A guy who is currently in prison, for fraud. Yeah.

Well, can I just hone in one rather small aspect of this? Please. I mean, I asked this question only a little bit facetiously. Love interests or just a journalistic integrity aside, has it ever occurred to you to go to bat for a subject of one of your pieces online when you feel like are being maligned separate from outside of the context of your peace being maligned? That is, no, never. Yeah, okay.

I think that's kind of an, I don't think that's a make it or break it aspect of this whole thing, but that's one of those things that did pop into my head, right? Where it's just like that seems, that is, there's no real, well, I guess that would turn out to be a sort of ethical issue. But at its very base, there's no ethical issue to discussing a subject of one of, that you've been writing about online. Right. But at some point, it crosses a line to kind of general impropriety and then obviously is a red flag when it comes to the sort of large scale, well, problem. Yeah. When you have started with the relationship with them and then you are defending them online. I just think you have evolved into something other than a journalist, which, by the way, Smyst seems very willing to admit.

the part of the part of this about that it was about journalistic ethics is pretty cut and dry. I don't think anybody's really too worried about that aspect of the story here. Let us move on to Act 2, David. Mm-hmm. All right. So Clifford writes, David, that when Schrelly found out about this L magazine article, he stopped communicating with Smyth. He can't call her and apparently he hasn't replied to her email, so she has heard nothing. So then Clifford goes to Schrelly and says, hey, I'm writing this article.

I have these facts I want you to respond to. And the statement he gives her about this woman he is apparently in a relationship with or was in a relationship with is Mr. Schrelli wishes Ms. Smythe the best of luck in her future endeavors. I'm sorry for the laughter. That is a canonical phrase in the pro wrestling industry when someone gets fired. Someone mentioned that on Twitter Yeah, WWE is very fond of wishing people best In their future endeavor To the point where getting fired in pro wrestling

Is referred to as commonly as being future endeavored Yeah It's a tough way to end a relationship And then, and again, please follow the bouncing ball here Clifford as the writer of the L Magazine article Then has to go to smite and deliver that message From the man that she was in a relationship with At some point

then there's act three of this story okay so act one journalist is covering a subject journalist begins a relationship with a subject uh-huh act two subject is no longer communicating with journalist and apparently issues a statement that he is no longer in a relationship with her act three is this clifford writes watching smite i finally realize her motive for telling her story she wants schrelli and hopes putting their love on the record might at last give her some power in the relationship. So what Clifford is writing here is that

she's wondering, wait, why is my telling me all this? It's a great question. And she puts it down that she wants to get this off her chest and that this she thinks will give her some power in the relationship. So that's kind of the third act, third dimension of this piece.

Wow. I don't even know where to go with that. That is everything that happened. I mean, you're left with this incredibly... Okay, for a story that's this wild, that sort of affects one the way it does, is affected, I think everyone that's read it, there's not a lot of question marks, right?

This isn't... And even the big reveal at the end, well, I guess it was pretty significant based on everything we'd... So the big reveal at the end, as it's sort of constructed, is that Screlli is no longer speaking to it. When confronted with the notion of

story he was just like he just ghosted uh and but i think that what's interesting there is not that he disappeared because we from what we know about him from from what we know about him almost exclusively through the piece that doesn't that shouldn't shock anyone too much no almost the more shocking thing is all or all the questions that are sort of immediately left unanswered right you get a whole sort of reliability of the narrator question right or of the subject question you get a reliability. I mean, the story is kind of all thrown into question, right?

I mean, obviously everything here was fact checked to the extent that it could be. But the story was certainly laid out in such a way that it took, that it took Christy Smyth's story at face value, right? And even if there was some question about the story, I don't think there's any,

I don't have any objection to the way the story was presented. but certainly at the end you are left wondering if what you had read was true or whether it was to some degree a construct of Christy Smyth's imagination. Well, that's one way to put it, but I think the other way you could put it was, is it true or was it a construct of Martin Schrelli's imagination?

Exactly. I think it's a fair reading that they were not in a relationship to the degree that Christy Smyth thought they were. The question is, if that's true, whether or not Martin Screlly faked it, led her to believe their relationship when he didn't have an intention of that so that it would help his case or his eventual release or whether there was just a lot of miscommunication going on. Yeah, I want to read you.

Erin Carmon did a really interesting interview with Clifford, the author of the L Magazine piece, about some of these issues. And this is one thing Clifford said. I think he gave her a lot of reasons to believe that this relationship was a serious relationship. and that this relationship would work. He approved his lawyers calling her his fiancé in a letter. And he approved the letter to the court saying he's in a serious relationship. He can stay with me when he's out. That was a letter that Smythe was going to write on his behalf.

So all that stuff is on the record. And that's the thing. And again, when we talk about relationship here, this is somebody who is in prison. So relationship is sort of a matter of matter. of interpretation here. What do you actually, what does that actually entail? Right. Besides sort of a verbal commitment that could be, you know, changed or at any time. Yes. I enjoyed that interview that you just referenced. And it's, and again, what an amazing media age where we have lengthy and incisive interviews with journalists moments, they're moments after their story drops and

becomes a phenomenon. The next day. Yeah. it is. The editor of the piece, I think, was also quoted in some places. I mean, like every, like every bit of this has become a sensation. And I think that's almost as interesting as, as the piece itself, right? I mean, that you, I mean, listen, in this day and age, I'd say the number one indicator of how, of, of, how pervasive, how effective, how, how widely acclaimed the story is. is if you log on a Twitter and you see people discussing it without referencing the title or the subject or the author or anything. It's just there is like an open convert. It's like walking in

to a cocktail party. And it's just like the end you're just catching bits and pieces of a conversation because everybody that you follow is discussing it. And it's way past the point of hashtagging or adding anybody. It's just the topic of conversation. Oh my God. I was so happy to have seen Alyssa Bresnex tweet last night, our colleague here at the ringer, when the story came out that actually linked the story in it. Because otherwise, I would be like, what are we all talking about again? Exactly. Yeah. What do we do? I just happened to be on at that moment. And I was so happy because I feel like I always missed that moment. I know. I know. I mean, it's a, it's a, it's just a very specific thing of this day and age. But it's, but,

but listen, but this story kind of lived up to all the hype, right? I mean, it was, it's sort of an amazing piece of journalism. I mean, well, I mean, what was your, what was your first reaction when you read it? Well, I'll say there are two, two interesting things here. One is it from the journalism point of view. One is that Clifford told Carmon that she did not necessarily want to take this piece to the New York Times magazine. She used to work at the New York Times because she didn't want this to be an ethics and media story. she recognized that either that was not the way she wanted to tell the story or I would say this, that's the boring version of the story.

Clifford writes, I wanted it to be a careful, slow telling of Christy and Christy's story. And I think that's absolutely right. Those are the motives and that's the story you want to understand. How did we get from here I'm covering this case in the courts in Brooklyn to this point of view where I'm sitting here waiting for. any kind of official statement from this imprisoned fraudster about what the status of my relationship with him. That is absolutely the right way to tell the story. The other thing I was sort of amused by was this whole thing of that Clifford had done

something wrong by writing this story and telling this story. Yeah, that was, there was some of that. Did you get that at all? Is there any possible case for that? Well, I mean, just to be super clear, the case against writing it, I think is very specifically about whether or not, about an assumption that people have made that that Smythe has some sort of psychological issue that would allow her to be put in this situation or whatever. And that that is, that it's exploitative. It's exploiting that to be writing about it. Which they're just making up.

based on reading the story. Exactly. I'm not sure that there'd be an issue even if that were true or even that were more more compellingly true. Frankly, well, I mean, there's a lot of oddity in here. I wonder if the reception would have been different. And I guess this does fall into the blanket of journalism. Would the reception have been significantly different

had there not been the photo spread as part of this thing? That was a weird, that was a weird touch. I mean, I don't, I don't, I won't say like, there was nothing wrong with it, but it's just funny. Like, you're reading this very intense story. And then there's the kind of L magazine posed photographs. Yeah. And it's kind of like, oh, what?

You know, which is just a different treatment than it would have been if it were in a different place. Sure. But it doesn't matter, right? I mean, it's like, okay. So what? Well, it doesn't matter. It doesn't change what the words are, right? But it does change what I think is, I mean, I mean, you, you read the,

the line about about her trying to kind of get control in the relationship, but it does sort of, I mean, that, that, the issue of why the story, why the story is being told is, I think a part of a lot of journalism, right, whether or not it's deliberate. And it's, I think it's particularly significant here, um, because I think from the second page, you're wondering who's, in whose interest is this story being told, right? I mean, even if it's straightforwardly, in Martin Screlli's interest to pan himself into good, even if everything in it is true, if their relationship is real,

if they're really in love, like, why now? Why is this story being told now? And so you are asking the question. And I think it would be naive to think that that's not part of the reading experience. It would be naive if the editors didn't expect that. And so putting your protagonist,

like if you want to use that term, in a fashion photo spread, again, sort of, sort of, part of the, you know, the vocabulary, of L Magazine in a certain sense, but this piece is bigger than L. Magazine. And they knew it was going to be bigger the moment that they greenlit it.

I think interrogating the motives of your subjects is always a good idea. From the writer's point of view, from the editor's point of view, absolutely. I do hate it when media Twitter does this thing where whenever a piece comes out like this, or there's an interview with Isaac Chotner and the New Yorker, and everybody goes,

why would they agree to this? Why would they agree to this interview? And you're like, are you their PR firm? You are a journalist who is trying to persuade people presumably to talk to you all the time. Yeah. And let me tell you why they agreed to the interview, because Clifford convinced Smythe to do the piece. Yeah. Smyth is a journalist.

Exactly. And if you read the interview with Carmon, it's really interesting because she says, she says one of her pitches was, you're a journalist. journalist, you know it's a good story, right? She specifically appealed to her on those grounds. And she also says much more sort of to the point here. She says, I think she'd gotten tired of basically covering this up and not being able to say the world that she was in love and she was in love with Martin Schrelli. There you go, right? I have this thing. I've been cagey about her, haven't been able to tell about it. I'm just going to tell my story. You're going to get it off my

chest. And by the way, some of the ancillary content from this last night was Christy Smyth herself on Twitter. Yeah. Defending herself in some cases from people. She says, I realize it's hard for many people to accept that, one, Martin is not a psychopath, and two, a woman can choose to do something with her life, which does not affect you that you in no way approve of. But that's okay. This had so many layers to. It's just unbelievable. When I saw her tweeting last night, I was like, oh my gosh, now we're into like act four of this story. Yeah. No, I agree. I, it's, well, I mean, I think that her tweeting with, with, you know, self-awareness and confidence, I think, was in some ways the sort of perfect, almost a happy ending to the story, right?

I mean, the, the end of the story itself was incredibly bittersweet, right? I mean, it was, it was a sad, it was deeply sad, right, that he'd sort of wish her the best in her future endeavors, and that she was just like, oh, that's cute, sort of, you know, I mean, she sort of, she took it almost too easily in stride. but again we're sort of talking about the content of the story is so hard to get away from the story was told really really well and but the but the fact that it's grown into this bigger thing i mean i don't know what do you i mean does is this the definition of a an effective piece of journalism of this style in the modern age like is this is this was

this rollout and reaction what every journalist is hoping for right now when you write a feature story? Well, I mean, I think it hits the erogenous zones of media Twitter. Right. It's a love story, which is interesting. It has the goods from the subject, which is really interesting. And it's about Martin Schrelli. It's a source of endless and bottomless fascination for people. And like I said, somebody who is in the Gawker Gallery of

of characters. So I think in that sense, sure, yeah. I mean, it's incredibly satisfying. And there's all these different things to talk about, which we have just been a segment talking about. So mission accomplished. There's so much. But just to put the icing on the keg or just to close this thing off. There's no issue

of journalistic integrity here on the part of L. Magazine. I don't see one. Right. Or Stephanie Clifford, obviously. It was really well done. Do you think that she's right that it wouldn't have gotten the same, that it wouldn't have been the same had it gone through the New York Magazine machine?

I mean, she was sort of specifically reverencing the paper and not the magazine saying that she didn't have a relationship with, right? She didn't have a relationship with the magazine, she said, this being Clifford. Do you think that, I mean, I read this, photos aside,

and I think part of the reason why the photos were so jarring was because I read this sort of separate from any sort of, for many, I wasn't thinking of L magazine. I wasn't holding a magazine when I was reading it. This could have been, this is, this is of, you know, this is from the newest issue of like,

holy shit, you've got to read this. You know, on, on, on, through this Twitter link.com, I mean, the magazine. I, it's, it. I just renewed my subscription to holy shit, you've got to read this. So,

I mean, it, it felt like it was just really, well done. I mean, is there, is there, would you, if you were, if you were an editor assigned to this, would you have done anything differently? That's a really good question. I mean, I'm sure you could, we could argue, you know, a word here and a line here, but no, I mean, I just, I think the thing about not getting hung up on trying to make this into a Columbia journalism review, no offense, that Columbia Journalism review, even, I mean, that's probably, they, they actually published some really

good stories. I'm sure, like, making this into a journalism ethic story would have been a big mistake instead of a story about this the way this reporter the the the very very strange trip and admittedly to her she admits a very strange trip that this reporter went on i think that's exactly what i think that story should have been told absolutely so no i don't i don't have like a big edit for you um but i am amazed even jeff passen the espian baseball reporters like throwing off anecdotes today do you see this so he says someone uh he says i've been saving this anecdote for a story, but screw it. Someone suggested that Tampa Bay Rays pictured Tyler Glasnow

try to get angry before his starts. To do this, he would look at pictures of one person. He pulled out his phone and showed me. It was Martin Schrelli. So there you go. A major league starter was looking at photos of this guy, so he would get angry enough to go out and dominate. All right, David, let's do the the award Twitter joke of the week where we celebrate a gag that was so obvious that all of media Twitter made it at exactly the same time. Send your nominees to at the press box pod where they are always gratefully received. Let's begin with this tweet from

the Washington Post. Listen up, every time you listen to Bing Crosby's White Christmas, about five people have died from the coronavirus between the beginning and the end of the song. There's no word Twitter joke to write, please stop listening to White Christmas. Thanks to T. Cizzle and David Wilson. David, among the bowl games that have been scrubbed due to the coronavirus,

news broke this week that the guaranteed rate bowl has been canceled. It was an upward Twitter joked right, so it wasn't exactly guaranteed. Thanks to Stuart Mandel and Tolu Thomas.

And finally, David, this tweet from Eater, J.J. Abrams recreated his favorite London restaurant in virtual Lagos. J.J. Abrams

recreates a London restaurant in virtual Lego. It was an overwork Twitter joke to write. It was a lot of fun to put together until the end when several key pieces ended up missing and the whole thing fell apart. Thanks to the laundry. You think dragging JJ Abrams is the real meaning of the season.

Congrats. You made the overwork Twitter joke. Oh, my God. Of the week. All right, David, in the notebook dump. I thought we'd do a little holiday talk. Yeah. And I thought we'd bring on our producer, Erica Servantes. Oh, what a treat.

Hello. Come in, Erica. There she is. All right, holiday talk. I got a few observations for you guys. Have you guys been singing any carols or listening to any carols as part of your holiday celebration? Erica, do you want to go first? I feel like I'm the Grinch because I have not.

I have, I don't know. It just, it's an odd year. So besides the Mariah Carey hit song. This is my observation about carols is I don't know the words. to any of them, even at my advanced stage. Like, David, the ones we were reading, like, from him Noles as kids, I feel like I have a pretty good, pretty good handle on those, but, like, Santa Claus is coming to town. Can you, can you give me, like, any words from that, from that song?

I've been listening to a lot of these things because I've, you know, my, my youngest is about to turn two. So this is his first real Christmas. So there has been, I feel like sort of a concerted effort to, like, barrage him with all of the songs, make sure that he's heard all the songs, make sure that he can identify a Christmas tree and Santa Claus and a reindeer and all this. You know, there's a little bit of back to school about the whole thing, which I've not dealt within a while. So I've heard, I've probably sung along with just about every song of my youth at some point over the past month, but I've not been

caroling. I was, I don't even, I can't, I feel like I'm going to shame somebody. I've seen some terrible caroling. We were at a, at a regional, kind of like an old-timey village thing that I guess shall not be named for the purposes of not, you know, bad-mouthing anyone. And it's a great place to go. Great place to hang out, really cool Christmas lights and everything. But we drove up and there was like at like foursome, two men, two women singing, I mean, an old-timey dress, like Dickensian dress and instruments singing carols. And we were just like, Oh my God, that's awesome. It's Carolers.

We'd, like, parked the car and we, like, rushed the kids over there. And they were just terrible. I mean, just, like, no, like, they were, they were so bad. Like, I couldn't even tell who was singing harmony and who was, I mean, the whole thing was just off. I mean, the costumes were on point, but the singing was just really not good, which made, which sort of, you know, was a bad start to the season. But I've heard some other carol.

I live in Princeton, New Jersey now. It's a sort of winter wonderland here. So it's a nice place to be. Where any of those carolers like strumming a lute or a liar? One of them had a guitar. At first I thought the guitar guy was the only bad one. And I'm just like, oh my gosh, they'd have to let him sing because he's the only one that knows all these carols on guitar.

But no, it was all. There was, yeah, there were a lot of issues up there. I know David and I have been experiencing the holidays to our kids, which is always a very, very special experience, you know, because we're old, we're jaded. We host a media podcast. So we need to sort of regain our innocence in a way, David. And I thought it would be helpful maybe as that process to experience the season through fresh eyes to ask my children, Owen, my son, who's seven, Stella, my daughter, who's five,

to talk about what their Christmas wish was, what their holiday wish was, okay? You know, what through the eyes of a child be a want most this holiday season? Here's what they said. My special wish is that you would stop talking about NBA ratings. And it's my special wish too. And it's nice to see the world through the eyes of a child.

Oh, that's amazing. Could have asked for Legos. could have asked for a dollhouse. No, they just want everybody to stop talking and so much about NBA ratings. Thank you, Brian. That's all I got. Special holiday traditions that you guys do

either now or have done in the past. I'll start with you, Erica. Well, we make tamales. There you go. Make them from scratch. We try our best. I haven't quite perfected it. But, you know, it's always fun to get together.

with my mom and my sisters and do that. And this is like a day long process, a bunch of people working in the kitchen at the same time? It is. It is. Nice. What about you, David? What's the favorite holiday food around the shoemaker table?

Dang, I don't think we have it. I mean, there's not much in the way of traditions. We're, you know, in my wife's family and the non-COVID era, I mean, she's a gigantic family. So it's just sort of everybody piles into grandma's house. And it's just madness for about, you know, 36 hours until people start going their separate ways. And the Shoemaker household, meaning my parents' household,

I mean, in my adult, you know, all of my years sort of returning home during adulthood, I think the closest thing to a tradition after is that opening presents will do like a, you know, do a movie on Christmas night. Most people do that. Make sure to hit the malls the day after Christmas. Not really so much because I want the sales,

but because I'm generally not home for very long. And South Park Mall in Charlotte, North Carolina is like one of the Seven Wonders of the Modern World, I believe. So I double check. I'm Googling right now to check this out. And it's, you know, I just like, I mean, and honestly, one of the things that I miss most in the COVID era is just being, for some reason, being in malls.

I don't go to malls all the time. I'm not like a movie teen from the 80s, but I don't just go there just to hang out. But there's something about all the gas they pump in and the strategic lighting that they put in to make you want to stay in the mall is great. I mean, it really does work and it feels good to be there. Yeah, even after malls kind of became passeg,

this time of year was a great time to go back. Yeah. Because they'd be decorated. Molls seem to have a, like, regain their. purpose in the holiday season. There was just a real, there was a really good feeling about that. No, it's funny. I remember when you and I used to live together, you would

always, you would have the most productive post-Christmas mall visit ever because you would come back to New York and you'd have like, you'd have like a new computer or something like that. I was like, wait, did you, is that under the tree? It's like, no, we went to the mall afterwards. Mom and dad thought I needed an upgrade. I would, it was

everything that you got, everything, all the clothes that I would get, And I would keep some of them, but most of it was basically just a signifier of like you now have, what, $89 of pre-sale. It's like pre-tax money, pre-tax money to spend at the J-Crew. And then you go and you like return the sweater and buy like 15 gray button down shirts, which I guess my normal haul with the savings. But yeah, I would, I mean, I would, you always get some money and always get some trade ends or whatever. I would spend the, the, post-Christmas shopping was more fun than the Christmas hall itself. It was incredible, Erica. I mean, I would be, I've never been so jealous of David than those days like when he would return on December 30th. I'm, where'd all this stuff come from?

That was unbelievable. This is my favorite Christmas tradition. I was thinking about this because my grandfather passed away last month. But when I was a kid, we used to always go to his house in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Okay. This is Albuquerque. And for some reason, and I'm not quite sure how this tradition got started. the whole family had lobster tails for Christmas on Christmas Eve.

And now this is, and this is not a posh family at all. These are all like public educators. And Albuquerque, you might know is not the seafood capital of America, more in the green and red chili capital of America. But for some reason, we would have lobster tails withdrawn butter for Christmas.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. And it had such a kind of like, I mean, as a kid, first of all, I just kind of wouldn't eat it for a couple of years and then, you know, gradually realize that lobster is the greatest food in human history next to red and green chili, I might add. And I would just eat it. And it was incredible. And I'm pretty sure one of my uncles ate lobster and green chili together. Like that was the move.

I think that would be expected in that region. Yeah, I don't know. This is a Christmas memory because it's separate from Thanksgiving. and I was only in North Carolina, you know, during those times generally growing up. But yeah, when we had our Christmas dinner, we knew that the family, and this is on the shoemaker's side, we knew the family had sort of made it when the shrimp cocktail became a staple of the Christmas dinner. We've crawled out of the scratch biscuit here.

We're having shrimp cocktail tonight. Oh, man, it was so good. And to this day, there's nothing that gets me. Nothing that brings me that like delicious food, extinct food nostalgia, although not extinct, like a shrimp cocktail. Or as Nanny Shoemaker would say Sremp. There is no age in her pronunciation. Oh, my God.

I love the Nanny Shoemaker. I want to know more about her on a future podcast. All right. We're going to go with Erica's tamales as the best sounding Christmas fair. And David's trips to the mall post-Christmas now sadly canceled by COVID as the best way to get your presents after Christmas. All right, David. the interview slot today. Jim Gray, you know Jim Gray. Everybody knows Jim Gray. He has worked everywhere. He's talked to everybody. Here's Jim Gray. When Jim Gray worked for CBS Sports,

the executives there had a nickname for him. They called him Our Jim Gray. Because every time a viewer turned on the TV, an announcer was saying, and now let's go down to Our Jim Gray. Gray was present for everything from the Malice in the Palace Brawl to the Mike Tyson Earbite. He has read about those moments in a new book talking to goats which you can buy right now. Jim Gray, thanks for coming on the press box. Brian, great to be with you. Thanks for having me. I want to start here. You work for CBS and NBC during the 80s and 90s, which we now look back at, I think, is the last golden age of network sports. What was the best thing about working for a network during that period? The people and the people that you got to work with, work for, and be around,

and the camaraderie that was built and the relationships that were able to develop, all of these things Brian took place in front of each other. And if it wasn't in front of each other, it was, you know, then by telephone. So you were actually talking to somebody. And we'd have meetings, we'd have seminars, we'd do the games together, we'd travel together. So I would say the people and those relationships and the time that you were able to spend with everyone. One of the guys you highlight in this book is John Madden. How'd you become friends with John Madden?

John Madden, you know, obviously I knew him from coaching, and then he was a great broadcaster, and we became friends after he had stopped coaching and started broadcasting. And I was a young broadcaster going to all of the big fights in Las Vegas, and John was a huge fight fan. Back in that day, there used to be closed circuit is how you would watch the fights, and everybody would go to a theater that paid money to go. go into a theater and then you could watch Ali and Frazier or you could watch any of the big

fights, but particularly the heavyweight fights. And John, while he was coach, or just after he was coach, procured the rights for the fights in the Oakland, Northern California area where he lived. And he would then come down to the fights. He would take either the bus or the train. And he would come to Caesar's Palace where most of the fights were at that time. And he would sit down in the lobby right by this elevator that went out to the pool or upstairs to a fine dining restaurant. And he would just be on this little bench. And so I would go early because I was working for Bob Aram or for Don King, interviewing all of the fighters and putting them up on the satellite.

So back in those days, Brian, they didn't have to send reporters, and you'd put this out on the satellite, which was way ahead of its time in the early 80s. and so they'd save all the money and they'd get the interview with Marvin Hagler from me and take it and use it for themselves or from Ray Leonard or from Ali or from whoever it was. And then Don King did that. So there would be Madden would be sitting down on that bench. And he was a great coach and a great guy and a huge boxing fan. So I would just start talking to him.

We were the only ones there on Tuesdays. You know, everybody else would come in on Friday for the Saturday fight. So we just began hanging out and talking and eating meals and became great friends. And you wound up living at his apartment in the Dakota in New York City. How did that happen? We were playing golf one day. And I said to John that I had an opportunity to go to work for NBC. But I didn't know anything about living in New York.

You know, I had been from Colorado, went to Philadelphia, then came to California. And, you know, I didn't know what it would be like to live in New York. and he said, well, how long will you have to live there? I said, well, probably through the 88 Olympics in Seoul because I was working for NBC, and this is 1987, but I'm not sure, but they want me back in the city. Well, I was like the guy who came for dinner and never left. He said, well, why don't you just stay at my place at the Dakota?

You know, I'm only there during football season. And when I had games on the East Coast in Philadelphia, in Boston, in New York, or on that East Coast, coast. You know, I stay in the apartment the rest of the time, it's empty. I mean, my kids come from time to time and my wife, Virginia, comes, but you can stay there. So he said, I could do that. So he gave me his place in the Dakota and ended up staying there for quite a few years. And, you know, saw John whenever he came in and I tried to reciprocate his son, Mike. Mike Mann's a great guy. Mike went to work for the Los Angeles Raiders. And so I gave Mike my apartment in Marina del Rey for

him to live in because I kept my apartment thinking I would come back to L.A. pretty soon, but it wasn't a very fair trade, Brian. As crash pads go, I can think of worse than the Dakota. Unbally, it was great. And all the people that lived in there and all the people who'd come by the building. And it was quite a great experience, wonderful experience. And I have, have, John, have coach Madden to thank for that. He's a genius. Madden was a real estate genius while he was a coach. He obviously knew everything there was about football and how to win games and Super Bowl. And then he won however many 25 Emmys as a broadcaster and created the Madden game. John Madden is literally a true genius and a great guy. You and I are on the same page on this

because there's been some revisionist history, you know, about broadcasters and all this stuff. And I say, have we really forgotten how great John Madden was every year he was on television? Is it possible that people could forget that John Men was the greatest of all time and will be, as far as I'm concerned, the greatest of all time? He was so spectacular. He made it so much fun. He transferred so much of that wisdom. And he was relatable. He was that every guy, not only the light beer commercials and the Ace Hardware commercials, but that's who he was.

He traveled the country by train, then by bus. He was claustrophobic, so he didn't want to fly anymore, which contributed to him. not continuing to coach as well. But by doing that, when you would get on the bus with him, he knew every restaurant along every corridor, in every small town, at every place, and all these nooks and crannies of America. He was literally Americana,

and he could tell you just everything about the topography and the geography and the landscape and the people, and then the people would see him and they'd love him. And he loved the people. Madden was never in a hurry. He had time. He had time for people's stories and he wanted to hear him and he could make you laugh and people made him laugh.

And it was just, so he made it fun. So he transferred all of that to the football broadcast, right? And that every man, you know, nobody understands professional football, the X's and the O's. They can talk all they want about all this jargon and everything. All they understand is where the ball goes. okay that's all they know where does the ball end up and was to play successful or unsuccessful all right well he took all of that jargon went boom and all this other stuff that he created and it made people understand and then of course he created you know the greatest video game ever with madden which which

the kids know today and players know today they don't necessarily know that madden won a super bowl no they don't know that madden won 25 Emmys or 30 or whatever the number of was something outrageous. They know them from the game. Yeah, you and I agree on that 100%. You've explained to me before that your TV career is based on relationships, from Tom Brady to Kobe Bryant and on and on and you write in the book, I found that relationships and loyalty matter as much as ability. Yeah, well, what's it like to be in a relate? When you talk about a relationship, let's take a specific one. Let's take Kobe Bryant. What was your relationship with Kobe Bryant like? Well, I knew Kobe Bryant from when he was an infant. I knew Kobe Bryant. I knew Kobe Bryant.

when he was in his mother Pam's arms. When I say know him, I'd seen him. You know, I'd conversed with Pam. You know, I wasn't playing with a toddler in her arms. But there was a familiarity. I was a scout for the San Diego Clippers for Paul Silas and Pete Babcock. In my early days of broadcasting, I also did that. So I became very familiar with Kobe and then see him in the hallways and obviously so forth.

And then broadcasting, I was with the 76ers where obviously Joe had. played and then Kobe grew up with the you know interludes over in Europe in Italy and so forth but then Lower Mary in high school so I had known Kobe I know Kobe basically his whole life you know and so we had just developed a great rapport and a friendship and a trust we weren't socially inclined or involved I mean we had a few dinners over the years and we had some trips together where we became more socially involved after his career. But during his career, we'd have dinner from time to time. But I probably interviewed him.

This is a guest between, you know, 100 and 200 times. And so, you know, Mara Albert used to say, you know, it's kind of funny about Kobe. Usually we report on them. He reports to you. He was being funny. You know, you have to do it in Marv's accent and Mars voice. And so we had a great relationship.

And, you know, we were able to build that trust over the years. And so we had a terrific professional and personal relationship. And when it gets time to have to ask him the questions that were important to ask him about his performance or what had transpired that might affect as a performance, I did. You tell the story in the book, 2003, Kobe Bryant called. you and says, I want to do an interview. What transpired from there? Well, he was quite upset with the way he was being treated, specifically with Shaquille O'Neal and the way the Jack had treated him and was behaving toward the organization. And he wanted to get a lot of things off his chest, Brian, and kind of go through it all in talking to goats. And it aired on ESPN

and the ramifications and the repercussions are reverberated for a long time. And I guess to a certain extent, probably led to ultimately the breakup, even though it was heading that way anyway. It was amazing because you say in the book, and I did not know this, that you had to actually edit a Kobe comment out of the interview where he said that the guy selling donuts at 7-Eleven has more pride and dedication to his job than Shaq does. I can't actually use that in the interview. I had to take that out because, again, I had a good relationship with Shaq.

and while these were Kobe's words, and we put all the other stuff about, you know, being lazy and, you know, not diligent in his job and, you know, getting surgery on company time because it happened on company time and being fat and out of shape and whatever else he said, you know, I don't have it all in front of me at this moment, but, you know, the gist of it was extremely volatile and highly, obviously, controversial and all Kobe's words. And he wanted it off his chest. And the reason that I took that out, not only my relationship with Shaq, but I just thought that was a bridge too far for Kobe, for himself and for other players. And I said, you know what, you are not only burning these bridges, you know, it's the old line you're napalling them. So, you know, this is nuclear. And so I don't know how you're going to ever exist with any of these folks again or any other players again.

when this is and I said and even if you don't want to I don't want this in there Kobe because I'm going to deal with Shaq Shaq's going to be in the league for another eight years okay and I like Shaq so I called Shaq and told him what was coming and he was he did not want to respond and then from then on for the next two or three years he called me traitor gray and basically wouldn't wouldn't respond to me and he's calling you that just because you were the guy sitting across from Kobe when he made all those comments correct Well, Shaq was brilliant in recruiting people. He could recruit his teammates.

He could recruit the press. You know, he even recruited Phil Jackson, who was very difficult and mean and nasty to Kobe. And he even wrote in his book that he could feel the hatred from Kobe because he treated Kobe so poorly. And Shaq was, you know, big guy, but he was much more sensitive. So Shaq recruited everybody and would form these clicks. And, you know, he was very powerful with teammates. players around the league. Everybody follows like the, you know, the Piper. Everybody wanted, you know, to be around Shaq and they still do. I mean, he's an engaging, fun, witty,

witty guy. So I called him and obviously it led to, it led to a whole lot of ramifications and he threatened to kill Kobe the next day if he ever said anything like that to Jim Gray again or to anybody. And Kobe jumped up right there and wanted to fight him. And I obviously that that didn't go on, it got broken up and separated. But they even installed a metal detector there. This just felt amazing, just in case somebody took it too far in that relationship the next day. So that's Kobe. You also read about your relationship with Mike Tyson in here, who I was amused to learn, calls you Mr. Gray.

How does your relationship with Mike develop? Well, when he was a young fighter, I had gone out to the Catskills to see him and interview him. long before he was the youngest heavyweight champ. So I met him and talked to him. He was very shy. And he was, I wouldn't say reluctant, but he was, you know, he didn't want to engage at that time. He wasn't ready for all of that.

So, you know, it was, you know, a lot of yeses and knows and not much, not much, not much, you know, substance that you could put on the air because you can't sustain an interview like that. But he was friendly. He was just shy. So a couple years later, I was in a restaurant with my dad, Mateo's, on Pico, on Westwood Boulevard, just off Pico. And he came in and he was with his two original managers, Jimmy Jacobs and Bill Caten. But Don King, just by chance, or maybe not by chance, happened to be in the restaurant.

And Mike got up and walked out. And there was a train set, Brian, that used to go around the top of the restaurant in the bar area. and Mike started staring at the train right next to my table. So I said, hey, Mike, how are you? And this was a restaurant where everybody went on Sunday nights. It was like the happening spot. And we were lucky to get a table, but our table was out in the bar area. We weren't seated in the main area.

But in there was Sammy Davis Jr. and Frank Sinatra and Al Davis and Lucille Ball. And Will Chamberlain was there that night, Farrah Fawcett. So, I mean, it was literally, you know, who's who of sports in Hollywood and it collided. So there was Mike. And anyway, I said hello to him. And he reached out and shook my hand and, you know, said, I'm Jim Gray. And he said, he interviewed me. I know who you are.

And his recall was tremendous. And he sat down and met my dad. And from the time he met my dad until the time my dad died seven years ago, every single time I saw Mike. Before we started an interview, a production meeting on the street. at a fight in a restaurant, no matter where it was. How's your father, Jerry? How's your father, Jerry? Wow.

And I don't know that he ever saw him again. He might have seen him one more time at one of his fights briefly. But he always would ask. And so we just developed that rapport basically from that meeting in Mateos. And then he let me come, you know, do interviews. And I was at ESPN. And Al Bernstein and I used to literally stand on milk cartons outside of his. his fights in the parking lot of the Las Vegas Hilton when he was fighting all those guys for

the title, Bruce Selden and Bone Crusher Smith and so forth, Tubbs, and Al and I would be outside there, but Mike would always do the interview after his press conference. So that's basically how I got to know, Brian. Long answer, I'm sorry. No, not at all. In 1997, you're at the Tyson of Andrew Holyfield fight, which ends with Mike Tyson biting Holyfield's ears twice. And you go backstage and you do the interview and you write the book, you said it was the only interview I've ever done that I felt I got exactly right. Why was that? Well, you know, I've done tens of thousands of interviews. Okay. And after every one of them, you review it in your head or you review the tape or you hear it again at some point by and large. Well, that was the only time I walked away

where I said internally, you know, I didn't stumble on a word. I didn't not follow up here. Oh, damn, why didn't I ask that question? How could I have forgot? Oh, dang it. Why was the producer talking in my ear? I missed that. None of that happened. And so I knew that I had gotten that right. And I knew before that nothing like this had ever happened. And that nothing like this was ever going to happen again. So back then, we didn't have the internet. We didn't have YouTube. Everybody wasn't walking around with a computer. in their pocket that acted as a camera and a phone and, you know, could record and do all it is. But I knew just because some biting somebody else's ear lobe off wasn't going to happen again, particularly in a heavyweight championship bout, that I couldn't screw this up. And I was just happy that I didn't have to forgive myself for screwing it up because I never would have. And that's later, I think it was a later interview, Tyson threatened to kill you or in passing said, I'm going to kill you. Do you just, are you able to just move on from that and go, well,

that's just Mike and he's having a moment and we can carry on from here. He actually said that before the earbiting fight. He threatened to kill me and he threatened to kill Don King. And I asked him why and he reiterated it. And then 45 seconds later, Brian, he kissed me on my cheek. And let me tell you, it was far more disturbing when he kissed me than when he threatened to kill me. But, you know, Mike has had this wide range of emotions. you know, but I've always been grateful to him because he takes his own medicine and he answers

the questions, Brian, at his worst moments, okay, like the airbiting, for example, he came out and answered those questions. He didn't release a press statement. He didn't hide behind his lawyers. He didn't say I'm going to wait for the Nevada State Athletic Commission to decide whether they're going to release my purse, whether I'm going to be suspended. He came out and he took his own medicine. Well, how many guys do that anymore? How many people do that anymore? Well, in any facet of life, they all don't want to take accountability and responsibility for their behavior. And even when it's heinous and despicable, as it was that night, he was there to represent his feelings and to state his case. And so I have great respect for that and admiration.

Don't condone any of, don't condone any of his bad act. Don't screw that. into that, no, but I do appreciate the fact that he's willing to explain them the best way he can to all of us. Now, we will not construe it as Jim Gray is approving of earbiting in a heavyweight boxing title or any of the other things on Mike Tyson's list. You write in the book that your Pete Rose interview from the World Series in 1999, that people ask you about that still just about every week. What do people come up and say to you about that interview? Well, there are two schools. That was great. Way to go. Way to hold him accountable. You did the right thing. Or how could you have ever done that to him? And why would you have done that on that night? Now, obviously, it's toned down considerably from the first few years where there was tremendous, you know, visceral reaction and, you know, repercussions for both he and I. So, you know, now when people say it to you, well, I don't hear much anymore from those who were, you know, really angry and mad. Because Pete has admitted in his book, a few years later, my prison without bars, he came clean finally.

And then, you know, for talking to goats, about a year and a half ago, Brian, I was at a cancer society dinner. and they asked me would I come introduce Mike Tyson was being honored. So I said, sure. Well, unbeknownst to me, they were also honoring Pete Rose that evening. And so Pete got up and walked over to our table before the announcement. And I was sitting with my wife, Fran, and Kiki and Mike Tyson, and talking to Eddie Murphy was on the other side, the actor. And I said, Fran, oh, no, here comes Pete, not knowing how this is going to go or having any idea.

Well, he walks over, and so I got up out of my chair. And he said, Jim, you do a terrific job. You're really great at what you do. And I just kind of looked at him and he stuck out his hand. And so I shook his hand and I said, you really don't mean that. I know you don't mean that. And he says, yes, I do. You're terrific.

And what happened with us happened a long time ago. And a lot has changed. And there's a lot of water under that bridge. You're great. So then Mike Tyson jumped up too because he didn't know what was going to happen. So Pete says to Mike, who do you think would have won that fight between Jim and I? And Mike says, Jim, for sure. Wouldn't have been clothes.

We all laughed. I took a picture. That was a year and a half ago. So about two or three months ago for the book talking to goats, I said, you know what? Fox was nice enough to give me a special on the book, a one hour special. And I called Pete because we had other goats come back and do the special town. Brady, Mike Tyson, Lonnie Ali, representing Muhammad, Eric Dickerson, and so forth. So I asked, I asked Pete, would he participate in the special?

Could I come and interview him? So he said, yes. So I drove from Los Angeles to Las Vegas and during the pandemic. And we met at the Belagio Hotel, believe it or not, got a big conference room, did the interview for an hour. And it was all good. And then at the end of the hour, my last question was, do you still bet on baseball? And he said, yes, I do, which surprised me. but he threw in the caveat, which we aired on Fox.

He said, I still do bet. I haven't this year, but only legally, not illegally now. I only bet through the casino. But he was great. And by the way, that night, Brian, when we finished the interview, Pete walked away. He shook my hand. He was not aggravated. And at the end of this interview, shook my hand and we laughed.

And then he did a little thing for me for social media. He held up the book and he said, talking to goats, Jim Grace talked to all the goats. I'm going to rip out the chapter in this book and read the other 19 chapters, and I hope all the rest of you will as well. I hope this book sells a million copies.

Perhaps the most amazing thing about that episode is you, back in 1999, after the Rose interview, you get a message from Marlon Brando, the actual Marlon Brando on your voicemail. And you get back to Marlon Brando and he says what?

I actually didn't get back to him initially. Brian, he was Jack Nicholson's next door neighbor and they shared the same security and fence line. And so he had gotten the number from Jack because Marlon Brando apparently read number of newspapers a day, five or six a day. And I got a message on my machine to call Marlon Brando. And I thought it was one of my buddies playing a joke. So I wasn't going to participate in this or maybe it was a shock jack or whatever it was. So I didn't respond. So about three or four weeks later I'm playing golf with Jack Nicholson and he says to me what did Marlon want? And I said, what do you mean? What did he want? He said, uh, gave me your number. I said, oh, Jack, I threw that out.

I thought that was somebody screwing around. Nobody doesn't call Marlon back. He said, so he gave me the number. So I called him back. I told him what I just told you. And he said, no problem. He said, do you have a few minutes? I'd like to give you some advice. I said, sure. He said, everything they say about me is true. I hope you can get there. I said, I don't understand what that means, Mr. Brando. He said, well, I've been reading all this about you in the newspapers for the past five or six weeks, whatever it had been. And I don't know much about sports. So I called Jack up and asked him if he knew you. And he said, yeah, I know him well. And he says, you're a good guy. And I keep reading all this. And to me, it was just an interview. And I don't understand all the ramifications of that interview,

but I can't understand why it's still been such an issue. And he said, in my life, I don't respond to anything or anybody. So whatever some third party's impression of me that's been created, either in the tabloids or in the newspapers or on radio and TV, I just let that become their reality because everything they say about me is true. My family and my friends know it's not, and those are the only ones that really matter to me. If they're upset with me, I pay attention.

I said, well, I'm not really there yet. He said, the longer it goes, the more you will. So many interesting things about that. One is that if you are Marlon Brando, it's probably easier to be at peace with your public image, perhaps, than the rest of us, mere mortals.

But the other amazing part of that, too, is there was some pretty wild stuff going around about Marlon Brando toward the end of his life. But he was just completely, he, at least he told you he was completely zen about it. He was completely removed from that. And that was okay.

He was just going to let that cycle around in the world not respond. Well, I didn't track that and follow that. I'm not sure. I just remember him, obviously, as the great actor. And, you know, I wasn't involved in reading the tabloids or what necessarily all those things that were being said about him. But when you think about the gist of that and the people who are stalked by the tabloids, you know, even to this, to this day, the people who come, you know, so-and-so meets a Martian, or this one's doing this with that one, or whatever it may be that's in there. his approach was really fascinating and incredible because he wasn't trying to have lawyers or

his PR firm or or himself try and say that didn't happen. That's not true. He just accepted that everything that they had to say in there was total garbage. Why be involved with it? And why combat it? It was it was unbelievable. And then, you know, but when you see what goes on with some of these. folks and how they have to deal with this. I mean, just look at, you know, I don't know who the best

example would be right now. Maybe the Queen of England or some of the royal family or, you know, just some really super intense, highly famous people. I mean, I don't even know, you can't respond to it because God Almighty, you spend your whole life, A, denying everything. And maybe there's a germ of the truth in all of this or somebody says something, you know, that, but that doesn't, cover the whole petri dish, that germ doesn't somehow, you know, make the whole thing, you know, true. It made that little something or that. And I don't even know what I'm saying here, Brian, other than the fact is what an approach. And you know what? The longer it did go on, the easier it was to become like that. Because, you know, people can say anything they want,

particularly now on social media and what's the accountability and what's, you know, there's no editors anymore. There's anybody can say anything about anybody. And if that's what people are going to believe, that's what they're going to believe. It's not like you can stand up if you're Marlon Brando and start saying, no to the, you literally don't have enough hours in the day. One more thing before we let you go. You did the decision special with LeBron James in 2010. If you could change one thing about the decision, what would you change? One thing I would have changed. That's probably twofold. So I'm going to answer that in two parts. Okay. I would let people know why we were at the boys and girls clubs and that they were getting millions of dollars that was going to help kids and has been

the biggest contribution in the history of that entity and that institution and how it helped thousands upon thousands of kids. I would explain why we were at the boys and girls clubs and done a better job with that. And I probably would have tried to be a little more sensitive to the fans in Cleveland who were decimated in that Ohio area and around Akron for losing a favorite son and somebody who had, you know, they had put all of their hopes and dreams in that community and that sporting community toward him bringing a championship after all of the years that they had suffered through the drive, the fumble, the Indians, and so forth. And so even though it wasn't me leaving, perhaps I could have, you know, been a little bit more

more in tune, I guess, to how they might have received it. It's funny now because, you know, players in the NBA have so much more agency now than they did 10, 20, 30 years ago. And when people write about what we call the player empowerment era, they often track it back to the decision in 2010. What do you make of that that has become part of its legacy? Well, because that's what it is. It was the Kurt Flood moment for this generation. and this era that we now live in. If you take a look at the birth really of social media from that

and the rise of the Players Tribune and how people communicate, when LeBron got that hour from ESPN, he was then communicating without any of the institution's involvement, without the Cavaliers, without the Heat, about the NBA, and without the NBA's media partners. Well, he took over that out. power. So he then took all of the risk and ultimately they've all now been rewarded. And he was vilified for it. Well, he's not a villain. He's not a villain on any level. He just took,

he just took his own entity and empowered himself and others. Okay. So look at what he's done on the court. All those finals appearances, four championships. Look at what he's done off the court. He built to school, getting people to vote, all of the social justice initiatives that he is involved with. And so it was misapplied to have ever put him in a category of being a villain. And every single one of those players, not only in his sport, but all sports, have benefited and profiteered because of what he did and how he did it. We now spend entire seasons and entire playoffs, even before Kevin Durant wins a championship, or Kauai Leonard wins a championship, where are they going, who are they going to be with?

That becomes as big of a topic of conversation than the actual finals and playoffs themselves in a season. That's all because of LeBron. So they all owe him a great debt of gratitude. And I do believe that the way that the decision is portrayed now is much more accurate to what it represented then and the passage of time has now put it up into that tier. All right. Jim Gray's new book is Talking to Goats. It's available everywhere right now. Jim Gray, thanks for coming on the press box. Brian, always great to be with you. Thanks so much for taking

the time. Appreciate it. All right, it's time for David Shoemaker. Guesses the strain pun headline. Yeah. All right. Thursday's headline about the elegant spacing of penguin colonies was math of the penguins. Today's headline comes from me, David. It's not even a real headline yet. I'm just, I'm pre-writing. Oh, okay. God, I better get this one then.

Did you see Tiger Woods playing golf with his son Charlie this weekend? No, I totally missed this. Playing golf with the son Charlie, as you might imagine, Charlie is a fantastic golfer, inherited some of dad's jeans. We're already talking, well, he does stuff that I didn't even do at that age. let's imagine that Charlie Woods goes on to the PGA tour at some point

and his relationship with Tiger is not quite like Tiger and Earl Woods but you know you have a dad who's the ultimate greatest golfer of all time okay that carries with it some a little bit of a complication a burden perhaps and let's say you were writing a story

about that what would be Brian's strained pun headline Well, is it the, are you going for like the battle ham of the tiger father or something like that? That's right where I was going. Tiger Dad. Yeah. We would have also accepted Boy Meets Earl.

Boy meets Earl, just as a little bit of a tweet. Maybe I was talking to Michael Sala, but the greatest headline writer of all time about this. He said, you know, I think that would be like the caption that leads into the photos. The what? The bold caption, colon. Boy meets Earl. Boy meets Earl, yeah. He is David Jeemaker.

Upride, Curtis. Production Magic by Erica Servantes. We're going to take a deep breath here at the press box, but we're back Monday, December 28th, to do some year-in media plus Jesse Washington of the undefeated. And of course, David, more lukewarm takes about the media. See you then. See you later, Brian.