The Press Box - The Bill Belichick Interview Heard Round the World, Plus: Mike Tirico on a Horse Named "Journalism"

Episode Date: May 1, 2025

Hello media consumers! On this Press Box Thursday edition, Bryan and Joel dig deeper into the strange Bill Belichick CBS news interview that recently went viral after Jordon Hudson, his girlfriend, interrupted the interview multiple times (1:00). Then, they discuss the fallout and media fervor from the Jax Ulbrich–Shedeur Sanders NFL draft prank call (18:00), before discussing Pete Buttigieg’s appearance on the Flagrant podcast and assessing the state of prominent Democrats’ media strategies (35:00). Finally, they’re joined by NBC’s Mike Tirico to discuss the official horse of the Press Box, "Journalism," and covering the Kentucky Derby (53:00). Hosts: Bryan Curtis and Joel D. AndersonGuest: Mike TiricoSenior Producer: Bobby Wagner  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, everyone, it's Amy Poehler, and I'm launching a new podcast called Good Hang. In preparation for that, I asked some of my friends to send in some videos and give me some advice. Just be yourself, and the guests will come. Don't be the celebrity that this is their, like, sixth thing they're doing. I love two crime and cooking podcasts. Is there any way you could combine the two? Well, everyone has an opinion and a podcast. So, join me for Good Hang. It's rough out there. We're just trying to lighten it up a little. Hello, media consumers.

Welcome to Press Box. You've got Brian Curtis, Joel Anderson, and producer Bobby Wagner here. Coming up on today's pod, Democrats are making some flagrant attempts to position themselves with a 2028 election. The camera that decided two NBA playoff games, and NBC's Mike Torrico joins us to talk about journalism,

the official racehorse of the press box and Saturday's Kentucky Derby. But first, Let me take you to a place where they don't fear questions from Tony de Copel. Let's go to J-School. That's right. That's right. Call me Tanahasi Coates.

Ha-ha. Actually, don't call me that. You don't have to do that. But we have no fear here at the J-School. This is correct. Brian, the Bill Billichick book release tour continues apace. And the reviews have been mixed. to it and you say actually I've heard very little about the actual book at this point is that is that sort of your experience of hearing about the bill bellichick book tour i was going to say are we talking about reviews of the book or reviews of the tour reviews of the book itself like like i mean i just recently read that there was no mention of robert craft in the book so there's that

uh few things were left out yeah a few things left out um so i was sort of thinking about that though um You know, these news developments are so weird because nothing like this happened when he was in New England, right? Like, there was minor scuttle boat over his relationship with his ex-girlfriend Linda Holiday. And, you know, there'd be pictures of them like getting clams posted up on some raggedy red carpet somewhere, right? And him, like, stuffed in some rumpled up button, looking very awkward, like, is he tends to do when he's not on a football field. Like, there was that kind of stuff. But it wasn't the kind of gossip that really got too much attention outside of like really serious NFL fans, right? Absolutely.

And there was a funny tweet from Damien Woody where he said, wait a second, you're not following your own ignore the media, shut out the media playbook. Yeah. It's crazy. You taught us, coach. What are you doing? You know, you're breaking your own rules. I think, though, this is so far beyond his control. And the reason is because this isn't sportsmen.

media that's interested in them anymore. I'm just going to just tell you, so do you, are you, you read page six at all? Are you, are you a page six? I've been known to glance in that direction. I go to page six pretty regularly. Like, if I just, if, if I ever get to what I consider they'd be the end of the internet, I might end up at page six sometimes. Well, did you know that since April 29th, page six has posted a written about Jordan Hudson, his girlfriend, Bill Belichick's girlfriend, and Bill Belichick, 16 times. They've posted 16 times about him since April 29th. Now, how many times do they written about the UNC Transfer Portal?

I didn't see anything about where they were in the Nico Iamoleva sweepstakes. You know, I didn't, that did not come up. Interesting. Yeah. Now, a lot of them were just sort of, you know, responses to the CBS interview, right? Like, there's still some of that. But here's a couple of headlines. page six, Bill Belichick's friends, quote, shaking their heads at, quote, alarming relationship with, quote, runaway train Jordan Hudson.

Oh, my goodness. Page six, Jordan Hudson's, quote, controlling behavior during Bill Belichick interview was, quote, on brand, colon, high school classmate. God, I love the little mini quotes whenever you have the page six headline. Like, somebody said this. Probably someone anonymously said this, but somebody said this. Actually, I was just going to read you the headlines, but I want you just a little. Here's a quote from that story. That is exactly how she is, the province town, Massachusetts local said on Wednesday,

none of us are shocked. We think it is hilarious. This is totally something she would do. The insider went on to describe the cheerleaders, quote, tumultuous and, quote, dramatic high school romance with someone a couple years older than her, recalling the now 24-year-old, quote, stomping around campus. She would get mad at him for something stupid and berate him and control him about something or get mad at him over random things

the ex-classmate claimed. Everyone knew their business. Okay. So you're saying this is different from what Ben Volan wrote in the globe when Belichick was coaching the Pats? It seems to be a little bit of a departure from. from the do-your-job era of Bill Belichick. Also, page six, Bill Billiichick's daughter-in-law takes a swipe at Jordan Hudson after disastrous CBS interview.

This is his daughter-in-law, Jennifer Schmidt, who is married to Steve, Stephen Belichick, the defensive coordinator at UNC. And I went and checked to see if this comment that she left on Instagram was still there a few minutes ago. And it was. Okay. So this story was posted last night. So whatever she wanted people to know about how she felt about Jordan Hudson, she's not backed off of it. And this is what she said because she was responding to a comment

and an Instagram post under a clip to the Julian Edelman Rob Gunnkosky podcast. So there's a lot of people to keep up with here. My head hurts. Yeah, right. So comedian Nikki Glass there is in the comments saying, agreeing with Julian Edelman and Rob Gunkowski that Jordan Hudson is just acting as a PR agent. Like she's doing a professional job and people are taking this all out of context and saying they're not being fair to her by thinking of her as a girlfriend and not as a professional. So Nikki Glasser says 100% this.

She's acting as his publicist. Publicists do this during interviews. People are out for blood. Bill Billiichick's daughter-in-law responds. publicists act in a professional manner and don't storm offset delaying an interview, she wrote. I'm going to have to go with Bill Belichick's daughter-in-law here. I'm sorry, if Nikki Glazer was doing an interview with a Ringer podcast and there was a publicist off-camera saying, we're not talking about that, we're not discussing that. Yeah.

I mean, that would be ridiculous. I mean, yeah, that's not also with cameras rolling in there. I feel like a publicist would make sure that there were no cameras rolling before that moment happened as well, right? They'd be savvy. You have to know that. And you bring up something interesting because CBS did something very subtly brilliant in that piece that ran about seven or eight minutes, which is they clearly positioned a camera that would capture Jordan Hudson and Bill Belichick. Now, maybe they just knew that because they were just going to ask about the relationship.

They were setting up the Coppals question about that and like, okay, and we're going to have. a two shot here where we have Belichick from behind and then we have Hudson sitting off to the side. Turns out they struck gold because she was stage managing the interview, which became part of the story. But that was a very, very interesting little move there that clearly was planned in advance. This is going to be quite a throwback, and I'm sure that I'm going to miss a lot of other examples. You know what that angle reminded me of? So it reminded me of Barbara Walters interviewing Robert Givens and Mike Tyson showing up. Oh, my God. Right? And it reminded me, and I think this was Oprah interviewing Whitney Houston and Bobby Brown showing up

in the interview, sort of like not necessarily being invited to be there, but just chiming in from a distance. And he was like in the wings or something like that? He was in the wings. Yeah, he was just around the house or something and he shows up during this interview because they were talking about whether or not Whitney Houston was using drugs or not. So remember Iron Mike and Robin Givens on the couch together, but I may be misremembering that particular shot. So there's a portion of the interview, and people can correct me on this if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty certain I'm right about this, is that she was talking to Robin Givens, and then Mike Tyson comes in and intrudes. I think they were going to interview them separately first, and then together,

and then Mike Tyson sort of leads his way into the interview. So, did you notice on this thing that Bill Belichick put out yesterday on University of North Carolina letterhead? Yeah, which was his own little mini part of the story. but he says in this, I clearly communicated with my publicist at Simon & Schuster that any promotional interviews I participated in would agree to focus solely on the contents of the book.

Notice what he's saying there. I said this to my publicist. Not that CBS agreed to these terms, the interview, which they would not agree to. Of course not. And they responded in saying, we did not agree to that, actually. Like, that was nothing that we agreed to.

Yeah, but I just thought that was interesting because it sounds like he's getting mad at CBS. he does talk about the editing, but of course, Bill Belchick's smart enough to know. Of course. You do an interview. They're going to pick things from the interview. And of course, they're going to ask about the most interesting things. Right.

They're not going to ask about your leadership lessons. Well, yeah, of course. So this is what I'm just kind of wondering, because he was insulated from media in a way over the last 20, 30 years in a way that was sort of unique. Like, he didn't really have to be accountable to the media. People sort of grew to accept him in his distance. from the media, like, that was just part of his character, right? Combination of his character and his success. I don't have to answer your questions because I'm winning six Super Bowls.

Absolutely, absolutely. And so now you've got things like the Daily Mail reporting, Bill Belichick's provocative girlfriend, Jordan Hudson, 24, has quietly amassed a $9 million real estate empire since hooking up with the 73-year-old sports legend, right? TMZ is regularly reporting on their relationship. And so you tell me if I'm wrong here, Brian. I think what is going to happen here is that page 6, TMZ, People Magazine, and the rest of the celebrity gossip industry are going to lead the way on this story.

And gradually, the athletic and ESPN and other local outlets are going to be able to pin some of the more salacious stuff on them while raising more general questions about the state of Belichick and the program, right? Don't you? Because nobody is used to. Nobody wants to write about Bill Belichick and his girlfriend. if they don't have to. If you cover college sports or you used to cover the Patriots, you don't really want to have to write about this, right?

So that's where the page six has come in. Yeah, and I think it goes to your point about just the way he's engaged with the media. Yep. What did the Athletic and Matt Baker find out a couple weeks ago? Well, that Jordan Hudson was being copied on a lot of these emails. and it was particularly with the management of press releases. Steve Billichick, we hired the aforementioned. Hey, don't portray him as Bill Belichick's son or only as Bill Belichick's son.

We need to portray him as a guy who's been a college defensive coordinator and worked in the pros and all that stuff. Like it goes to that thing, right? So not only are you saying, oh, is TMZ and all these places are giving sports writer's permission to cover her in a way. But she is actually, at least again, according to these reports, kind of a go between Bill Belichick and the sports writers. She is the Stacey James of this whole transaction. And so I just, I don't know. How do you not cover that? So they've been together for three years now, right? Like I did, which I was kind of surprised to realize that

their relationship had been going on that long. Where has the time gone? But does that not give you, a little bit. I don't know. It doesn't explain it to me, but it sort of makes me think about why the Patriots were willing to let go with the guy because, I mean, it's not, you know,

ordinarily you don't want to fire Bill Belichick, like you just want him to leave gracefully. And the reason why the entire NFL took a pass on him, right? And why he just sort of ended up at a random college. You know, to me, it's just like, if I'm thinking about this backward,

And I'm like, okay, it sort of makes a lot more sense. And I just sort of, now that he's on his own, he doesn't have the buffer of the Patriots from the media. It just seems like he's more exposed in a way. I would have never expected that he would be this exposed so far. And I think part of that comes from that gap year that he took when he was kind of a media figure. Because let's say he is let go by the Patriots and then he immediately gets another NFL job. Yep. Well, he never writes this book.

Right. He never does this book tour. He never does that year where he kind of goes on the Manning cast and tries to seem like a nice guy, clearly so he could get another job. Yeah. He's probably, we could guess, not the subject of so many Instagram photos if he's actually coaching an NFL team. He just doesn't have time to do that.

Isn't in the mood to do that? Whatever it is. So you're saying he's not doing acro yoga on the beach, probably. Yes. His media gap year is the thing that opens a wormhole. to a lot of this. Yeah. And speaking of which,

we also learned from The Athletic, a story by Baker, Andrew Marchand and Brendan Marks, that Jordan Hudson had played what they called an instrumental role in stopping the production of Hardinocks. Yep. Which was at the five-yard line.

They were going to do Hard Knocks, UNC football. Something that Bill Billichick wanted to do, by the way, which is revealed in that story, right? Yes. And then she steps in. Now, I had a slightly different reaction

of that story, which is, a, someone in the athletic world or one of their associates asking to be heavily involved in a documentary is just the way things work today. Yeah. It would be a massive upset if Bill Belichick were like, bring in the cameras, we have no editorial control, make a documentary about me that I do not participate in editorially or financially. Have at it. You guys get complete total access and I'm not going to bother with that stuff.

I hate that as a journalist that that's the world we live in, but that is the world we live in. Yeah. That is not, that's not how things work anymore. So that is not surprising to me. I mean, that was sort of the, I thought the story was great. So I'm not, I'm not taking a dump on it. But I just think like that part of the context, like what she was doing was a very, very normal thing in 2025. Right.

The other part of context that I would add here is if you watched any of the dynasty, the Patstock that was on Apple, that was very much a Robert Kraft-centric documentary, Bill Belichick was the Isaiah Thomas of that documentary. So here's a guy who's coming out of that experience. And wait a second, NFL films, and again, let's not confuse NFL films with Michael Moore. This is a certain kind of documentarian experience. But NFL films is going to come in and I have no control over it.

None of that control I had when I was coaching a football team and I controlled everything, come on. And there's just no way he was going to agree to that. I don't believe it. That's true. Yeah, I mean, he's, and he's got less, I mean, the thing is, he's got much less bargaining power than he used to have to, right? Like, I mean, we're now, I mean, how long has it been since anybody thought,

or like we were in the Bill Billichick as a genius moment? It's been a while. It's been a while. And he's had to watch himself get fired. He's had to watch a guy that he got rid of when a Super Bowl with another franchise, now this. It's just, I mean, look, I mean, I don't want North Carolina to beat TCU and it's season opener this year. I hope you're going to that game, by the way. Are we sending you to that game? I think, this is us asking. This is us putting the credential request.

Putting in writing. Putting in writing with every, so people at North Carolina and, you know, Connor, Mallory, whoever. Yeah, that's actually ringer policy now. You don't put it in an email you just say it in the opening segment of your podcast. Just say it out loud. People are kind of green shop. That's right. That's right. Also, I want to move on because this might be a little long thing too. So, you know, Brian, I did think it was adorable to hear about you and Dave, prank calling some young lady in Fort Worth when you were in high school and asking for aloysious. Do you think that woman knows who knows, did she ever find out that you all did that?

unclear unclear she was she was a she was a friend so i i like to think that you know if she did she would she would have smiled and been like all those crazy guys what was the goal there were you i mean did somebody actually like this young lady or was it just probably so i'm trying to i'm just trying to think if it was just me or shoemaker also but but probably both let's let's be on it okay well don't see you know man people can't see this because this isn't a visual medium yet And Brian looked a little embarrassed.

As I called him. A little rose-colored cheeks there, yeah. Oh, man. Well, you know, I'm going to absolve you of a little guilt here. Thank you. It's an embarrassment. So, but do you know what made that different from what Jacks Olbrick and his buddy did to Shador Sanders on draft day?

Tell me. They're 21 years old. They are not babies. Did you do prank calls at 21? Did you still have the urge for it? I don't know. College, yeah, there might have been a couple. But, you know.

Between friends, but did you call up random strangers at 21 years old? I don't know, man. I feel like I'm making denials that might not pan out here. They were not the quarterback, you know, wasn't like UT quarterback James Brown or Major Applewhite. I wasn't calling them. Yeah. I mean, see, this, look, man, look. I just want to be honest with the audience, you know, there was some, there was some

prank calls in the past. All right. I mean, that's fair. That's fair. I mean, look, and I'm not about, I prank called my friends. when I was 21 years old. I definitely do that too. I don't know that anybody could have had me call Lidani and Tomlinson

just to fuck around with him when I was 21 years old. And so, again, that's what I think is the difference here. Like, those guys are 21 years old. They're men. I'm not saying that anything bad happened, right? I'm not saying that, again, that the Falcons should lose a draft pick. But, oh, brother. Coaches sons end up becoming coaches.

And I wouldn't doubt that for like a decade from now, that Jacks Obrick is like the linebackers coach for the Jaguars or something. And the other thing that I just sort of had a question for is like, why does everybody believe their version of the story that Obrick wrote down the number from his father's open iPad while visiting his parents home? I mean, who offered that up as the alibi? Them? Them.

Right. Okay. Well, see, this is what I'm saying. So like, I don't, again, I don't, I'm not calling for him to be arrested. I'm not calling for the Falcons to have to give us. up a draft pick, but I do think there should be a serious penalty because they're supposed to protect that information. Because I'm going to, Brian, have you ever accidentally released some information that was

supposed to be embargoed? Probably, yeah, by a matter of like a misunderstanding a day or something like that you're talking about? I have a very big incident from my career that I remember. And I was at the AP, and if you live in Texas, you know that the UIL, the university. in a scholastic league, they go through a redistricting every two years. So they move all the schools and they regroup them in divisions and districts and everything else. It's a big deal, right? Important. Important in football terms. Very important stuff. Absolutely. And the AP, we got that

information exclusively. And as the Texas High School football sports editor at the AP, I was the protector of that information. I accidentally published it a day early. And I didn't mean to publish it, like I did some sort of coding in the system that made it go out. And everybody in the office, and especially at the UI.L, was pissed at me. And it's a sort of thing, I don't know what happened as a result, but it's the sort of thing with the UIL could rethink their decision to give you sensitive information. Sure. And so that's what I think is the issue here with the Obrick folks. Like, if you're an agent or a player, might you reconsider giving your number to certain people, certain franchises if they have a record of being careless with sensitive information.

Okay, I hear that, but let's say that it happened in some way that resembles what the Falcon's official story is about this. Are people really closing their laptop when their partner or their kids walk by? Are you closing your password? I mean, these are not nuclear secrets here. this is not Pete Hegesith, you know, talking about when the planes are coming. This is, you know, the guy's number. Are you really like, oh, I got put the password protection on because somebody walked through the kitchen. That just seems like a lot to me.

I mean, again, I don't want somebody's number loose in the world like that. I think that's not great. It's not good. I don't, I'm not defending, by the way, just in case people know, I'm not defending the act, the kid, anybody here at all. I'm just saying, like, what are you going to do? Oh, again. It doesn't have to be a theme where there was malice intended, but the result is, I don't know if I can trust you with sensitive information, right?

Yeah. There's a reason that this hasn't happened often or even before. Have you, I don't know. Has this happened before? The prospects were prank called. Apparently, Abdul Carter and Mason Graham were also prank called. I mean, which is just, again, I thought the prank call era was over in American life. You dropped the crankyakers, and I appreciate it.

that in the last episode. I thought we were out 20 years ago, but apparently we're still doing that. Yeah. Yeah. Again, I saw, I don't look. It's, all I'm saying is that like, the reason I think that that story resonated with people is because, one, like people didn't want to see Shadur humiliated like that. It was already an embarrassing day.

You don't know how people are going to respond to humiliation or like really public embarrassment. And, yeah, again, nobody has to go to jail. nobody has to get sent to El Salvador or anything like that. I'm just saying it's just like, you know, the reason that it seems like it should be a big deal is that I trusted you with this information and you abuse that trust. And sometimes people respond accordingly whether or not you meant to do it or not. I think I can co-sign on that, but I want you to co-sign on this second item, which is we do this thing on the Monday show often called America's softest target. This is Nico Harrison. This is Joe Biden after the election.

These are people who have zero defenders in the world. And when the media finds one of those people, they just high horse that thing to kingdom come. Because they know there's no consequences in doing it. It gives them a chance to be morally righteous. And they don't need Jacks Ulbric to call them back. Like there's just there's no journalistic consequence to doing this. So when I turn on first take and Stephen A and Lewis Riddick are going on, I'm just like,

okay, we can say that this is bad. But look, I mean, I'm not old enough to have takes about the kids these days and then everybody posting things online and what's happened to society. Like as soon as I bust one of those out, you just send me to the old media critics home. I don't, I don't want to be part of the media anymore. This idea that we're just like doing like blanket content. condemnations. I'm pretty sure there are other people at Ole Miss who were just watching the draft over the weekend or just drinking a beer, having a good time with their friends. Fair enough. I just think the blanket condemnation and all this like, we need to seriously talk about what this means. Like, guys, let's just put this in perspective. You can, you can hate the act. You can, even if you want to hate the DC for being careless with the information, whatever that is.

Right. I mean, going a tad far with this thing. I don't think anybody has to be a villain, but I just think you can do something. something villainous, which is, I mean, it was moderately villainous. But I did want to say some other, because we were thinking about, like, you know, we've been talking about, like, why do people care about Shador Sanders so much? Like, what is the, like, do you watch Colorado football? Are you really into keeping up with QB2 of every NFL draft? Like, allegedly QB2. And today, Dion posted this clip from, I think it was Dion and Pilar, prime time love.

which ran on oxygen for eight episodes in 2008, and it featured a much younger, and I must admit, a very handsome Dion talking to, I think, Dion Jr., Shiloh, and Shilomi, which is three of his kids, about the real story behind the Jack and Jill nursery rhyme. And it was really cute, and you could see how Dion was sort of shaping the image

of being an involved father who was both, like, conventional and unconventional. And in the comments, somebody said this and it really actually made me think of something. They said, this is what people don't understand about us and supporting this family. We have been watching them since they were babies and to see where they are now has been one hell of a journey. And I had kind of forgotten, man, beyond has been very desirous of putting his kids out there for over the last 20 years.

And so when people, like, to a lot of people, Shadur, Shalomi, Dion Jr., Shil, they are actually sort of, they've been figures in their life, like, you know, like on the edge of, like, reality TV world, right? They've always sort of been there. And I'm not saying like a lot of people watch this show. It only ran for eight episodes.

There was another one a few years later. It was like... I was going to say, Dion has had more shows on more second and third tier networks than anyone of the number of people. He's got a talk show now with one of the former co-hosts from 106 in Park, Roxy BS. I just sort of underestimated. how invested some people are in this family.

And Dion has cultivated this dynamic where he wanted his kids to be famous and he wanted them to be known commodities. And again, like, what NFL player can do that? Nobody on this level. And by the way, I thought part of what was the fun of watching Colorado last two years is, I thought that was cool. Yeah. It was fun.

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's part of what the allure, beyond the coach prime stuff and Colorado was back and, you know, here's 9,000 people from the transfer portal. That was the fun of Colorado football. It was great, man. And Dion has been so thoughtful about media attention and how to cultivate it.

And remember, people used to call him neon Dion. And he got them to stop calling them that and get them to call him prime time. He's, you know, wore the flashy jewelry as a strategy. He's openly courted TV. and it doesn't, but so Dion has built up this brand of his family, and a lot of people were invested in it, and a lot of people accordingly got upset and were disappointed where the story didn't end for like the first time ever in their store, since these people have been public figures, it's the first time the story has not ended in the way that they wanted it to.

I feel that. And I do think that there's a legitimate emotional connection there. Yeah. It does shade a little bit into that. the draft story of like making this a family thing. Yep. Rather than a formal, here's my agent thing who's going to call teams and figure out what the actual leverage is in the draft process.

That is an interesting story as well. And this is where I'm going to end it off with. So it doesn't mean that Dion knows what he's doing. And I've said this a couple of other places before. He's maybe one of the people least equipped in the world to give you job interview advice. like Dion has never had to show up and impress anybody ever like for any job right like people have always wanted Dion and that's maybe where she do it and Shiloh went wrong and so I'm going to use this analogy that I've used before Brian have you heard of cannabis yes I've heard of oh yes

cannabis yes thank you I'm sorry okay all right didn't know what we're lowercase or uppercase we were going there please yeah sorry about that yes this is uppercase cannabis cannabis is one of my favorite mixtape rappers of the late 90s and his album was highly anticipated. And then he linked up with Wyclef, Jean, the mastermind of the Fugees. Which your favorite Fugee song, Brian? Oh my God. So many to choose some here. Give me a few minutes. I'll answer after we talk to Toreko. If you say Fugila, you know, that that's an acceptable answer. Okay. We'll go over him. I got the focus. Anyway, because Wyclef produced the majority of the

tracks on Cannabis's debut album, like people kind of thought, oh, well, cannabis is going to become a sensation. Well, the album was terrible, and it was a flop. And what cannabis years later said, they were like, you know, I thought Wycliffe knew what he was doing. And that's what makes me think of Shador is Shiloh today. Yeah, Shiloh, who wasn't drafted at all. Who wasn't drafted at all, did not have an agent, got an agent as soon as it was apparent that he was like, oh, man, maybe dad's, you know, talking with NFL front offices. going as well as I expected. So this is what I'm saying.

I want to formally apologize to Todd McShay going back to our show on March 7th. Wow. We're going to transition from cannabis to Todd McShay to follow us here. Yeah. And so because we were responding to the first reports from his newsletter that people were talking about. It wasn't a professional approach and Shadurr wasn't taking it seriously. And I was like, it's not that I doubted those reports. It's that I thought Dion and his team knew what they were doing.

And obviously, much like cannabis, I guess Dion didn't know what he was doing, bro. I thought he knew what he was doing. So I want to give Todd credit for knocking out of the park on that one, too, because that did turn out to be 100% true. And it drove a lot of, maybe not the entirety of Shador's fault in the fifth round, but a lot of it.

I would say that there's two interesting things about that to me. One is the thing that the media didn't know was how much leverage. Deon had. Yes. What did you keep hearing during the draft? Well, we don't think he's a top 10 pick, but it only takes one team. That's what everybody kept saying, because they didn't know if there was just going to be

one team that would just come off the top rope and be like, actually, you know, Shador may not be the third pick in the draft or the first pick in the draft, but we think he's the 12th pick in the draft and come in there. Or the Steelers at 21. They just, we did, that was one of those things that we know everything now, but that was unknowable. Yeah, right, absolutely. The unspoken certainty to me in the draft was that if Shadur somehow lasts at 21,

the Steelers had taken him. Absolutely. And again, that came to that just leverage. Does Dion have, you know, Dion's so connected, you know, how does he not know? Like if he, and if Shadour's acting this way in an interview or just having a bad interview, whatever, whatever, we want to characterize that. Maybe they just know something that we don't know. the draft and that was their way of making sure the teams they didn't want to draft him,

didn't draft him so he could go to the teams that he wanted him to go to, right? Other thing I want to credit McShay for is the second part of that critique, which if you remember, he said, hey, you know, part of the reason you may not be hearing this from your favorite NFL insiders is because they are in the Dion Sanders business. So if this is a big story, and I'm hearing this, a guy who's mostly, about, you know, breaking down prospects. So he does draft news as well and reporting as well. But if I'm hearing this, then other people are hearing this.

But hey, there's Coach Prime business. Yep. They're Deon's friend. They show CU football on their television networks. Dion was going to be a big part of draft night. That didn't really materialize. I don't think on either network. But I thought that was really fascinating too.

Yeah. Because people miss this story, right? They miss the severity of it, if nothing else. Absolutely. And they were just kind of caught flat away. Wait a second. Why the whole NFL is out on this guy for four rounds plus? Like what?

Yeah. That was missed to a degree that I think is very, very interesting in retrospect. Absolutely. Yeah, man, again, Todd, you had it from the jump, man. You nailed it. So, you know, I'll never make the assumption that Dion knows what he's talking about again unless it's about, you know, how to play defensive back or something like that. A couple headlines for you before we get to Mike Tariko.

I spent my morning listening to the flagrant podcast. The title is actually Andrew Schultz's flagrant with Akash Singh. So we got kind of a little bit of an awkward title there. And I was listening to the pod, Joel, because Pete Buttigieg was the guest. Okay. Pete Buttigieg, who is almost certainly running for president, comes on the flagrant podcast for nearly three hours. It was a three-hour podcast?

Two hours and 50 minutes. and there's some ad reads in there which by the way always play hilariously when you have P. Buttigieg on like well just take a moment here to prospect. Yeah, what it was his prospect? Put the former secretary of transportation aside while we

conduct some business. First of all, I got to say I've not sampled a lot of these podcasts and usually I wind up sampling them when you and I are doing a segment about them. It's like oh, Theo Vaughn. Though I did sample some of him and Mark Zuckerberg, which was

whatever cringe you want to seek out this week, run, don't walk. Oh, man, really? To that conversation.

I'm going to go check that one out. Okay. But I didn't listen to the whole pod yet, but the first big chunk of it I listened to you, boy, that was an interesting discussion about tariffs and everything else. Because what you have are hosts that are legitimately curious about the topic. You have Pete Buttigieg who was the ultimate technocrat,

put me in coach, I can do three hours on whatever we want to talk about. You also have hosts that I think are kind of perhaps aesthetically skeptical of Democrats. In the Trump era. I mean, you know, I think Andrew Schultz would certainly be classified as one of those people for sure. So you have, you know, Buttigieg, just explaining things, selling the brand, talking about here's this, here is even if you think you want to protect people in the Midwest, here's why the way Trump is. has rolled out the tariffs has been incompetent, just on and on and on. And I, and I was listening to it in what I thought about after 30 or 40 minutes and something, I go, wow, this is like,

I think this is making me smarter just listening to this whole discussion. Huh. Okay. Because it's interesting. Okay. But I want to talk to you a little bit about what this season we're in is. This is image management season for prospective 2028 candidates. I can't believe we're already here thinking about this. I mean, yes. We are. I mean, you know, with the Oscars, it happens a couple months before the award ceremony. Right. Same reason. Like, we want to win an award, so we are wildly available for your podcast. This is a good time to get a microphone in front of your face, absolutely.

But Democrats are doing that now. We got J.B. Pritzker in New Hampshire saying we need to be in the streets, which is just a fascinating combination of messenger and message. Yeah, man, fire and brimstone. Yeah. I mean, I knew what he was doing when he did it, but it was like, the moment has been waiting on somebody to sort of do that as a Democrat, right? So, you know, he sees the opportunity. We got Coach Walls. Oh, yeah, coach.

Coach Walls out there just being more interesting than he was ever allowed to be during the campaign. Man. That was, he had a whole thing about I was like Picks. So I, because I could talk to white guys the other day that I thought, I think he was at Harvard that was just fascinating. Oh, man. Yeah. You know, and I still thought that he was, I thought after the,

from the debate forward, it was just kind of, he was a non-entity. Like, he just was a non-factor in the way that most vice presidential candidates are. But yeah,

like, it felt like a missed opportunity. It's good to see him coming back out around, though, in doing this. We got Josh Shapiro picking his spots

because if Josh Shapiro is good at, if nothing else, picking his spots, he didn't even want to be on the ticket. He was like, you know, I'm not going to pick that spot because I'm not sure this is a winner for me.

I don't want to be coded in whatever they get, uh, branded with when it goes down. Yes. And then we got most interestingly, Gretchen Whitmer. Ah, big grace. Well, she's had an interesting, yeah, media journey over the last couple weeks.

Mm-hmm. She goes to the White House, and this is part of her Trump outreach effort. New York Times and our friend Reed J. Epstein reported the other day. She actually had sent Trump a letter when he got elected. I believe it was a handwritten letter. Mm-hmm. Saying, you know, congratulations. let us find ways to work together.

And her specific interest, or one of her specific interests when she went to the White House was this Air National Guard base near Detroit. She also wanted some storm funding. But she gets pulled into the Oval Office. And all of a sudden, she realizes whatever her future ambitions are, that this is going to be a bad photograph.

Oh, yeah. So she takes that and makes it infinitely worse by putting a blue folder over her face as if she can hide. Doesn't that remind you of your kids when they're like, I'm trying to hide from dad? You can't see me because I'm covering my face. I put a pillow over my head. My body is exposed on bed though.

Right. Yeah. It was really funny. She puts that over and it just creates this absolutely crazy photograph. She looked totally uncomfortable. Like she looked Bill, check in any photo level. I'm comfortable.

Maybe not quite the fishing, the mermaid out of the ocean, Bill Belichick discomfort, but I'll grant you all the rest of them. Yeah, I mean, I don't have to feel sorry for these people, but I was like, oh, she certainly did not bargain on this, but that is, you know, I mean, this is sort of the tax she's taken. There are people that think you can work with the Trump administration, and there are those that don't. And it'll be interesting to see how the media characterizes sort of those two groups of

those two groups of guys and guys. house. On a policy level, she was successful. And that's how she's been selling this. Hey, that Air National Guard base funded, right? I came in. I may look silly. You may say, hey, ooh, you know, you're not, you're not part of the, part of the J.B.

Pritzker resistance, but I got something for my constituents in Michigan. I saw Dave Weigel tweet about this. He's like, what if Gretchen Whitmer's not running for president? What if she's just running for governor? What if she's trying to be a good governor? Yeah. And delivering on that level is willing to suffer whatever, you know, PR moment, suffer through whatever PR moment to get it. It's an interesting question.

I mean, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, senticism free. Um, I, I mean, I, I mean, all these people running for president until. Until further notice. Don't you think that? Like, that's sort of my, like, everybody is keeping their options open. Everybody wants to be president. I just, I think so. Yeah. I think Biggretch wants to be president. She wants to be. I mean, otherwise, there's no need to be embarrassed about what was going on up there.

No, why would you be hiding behind the folder if you didn't, you know, have your presidential life flashing before your eyes? Right. That letter was also written with the knowledge that people were going to find out about it as well. Like, Henry, like, I think that she thinks that, like, yeah, like, we can, we can work together. We can, you know, the understanding. is that people are going to find out about it, and that will appeal. They're going to find about it through a media, and some people are going to find that appealing. It's interesting to think about the power of an image here in 2025.

I'm pretty sure I saw a few mandatory references to Michael DeCoccus writing in the tank in 1988. Oh, man, yeah. There was a world where you could have a just haunting image that would be shown in. Gary Hart. Well, Gary Hart, Monkey Business. That also had a story attached to it. Yeah, right. Yeah.

Haunting in other ways for Gary Hart. But I do wonder, like, do we, is it the world we live in now, you can see that image instantly, like it's easy to disseminate it like crazy. Yeah. Also, though, we have a billion other images, you know, hitting us like asteroids hitting the moon. So I don't know. I do wonder if that is so powerful that that is actually going to adversely affect her, you

know, is that going to be in every single ad? Or do we just process so much now and process it so. officially that we just move on. We don't have, I don't think we have the bandwidth. I mean, didn't you think I thought that I would see the, the Donald Trump and McDonald's picture forever in any sort of context over and over again through now? It kind of disappeared. Like I don't, now maybe I'm not in enough, you know, the media spaces where that would show up again. But I just kind of feel like anything that you think, even the, even the, the, the picture of him talking about fight holding his shot ear. Like, I feel like that isn't.

that even really penetrated the public consciousness in the way that I would have expected. Like that seems like an old, old story at this point, right? If it's possible for that image to have somewhat disappeared, it has. I agree. And you're right about the McDonald's one. Remember, that was like a stroke of political genius. Yeah. And how, oh, my gosh, he did it.

Like Donald Trump figured it out and then it kind of went away. It just kind of went away. And I guess there's probably a difference between a positive image or one that reflects well on a candidate and one that. that is seen as exposing a candidate's weaknesses or potential vulnerabilities? Yeah. And the thing is, it's like, so we're going to have to wait, what, another three years to see if this pays off.

And then it's just like, it's a primary, that's a primary issue, right? Like, can she emerge from the primary with that image out there? But I just, there's going to be so many other opportunities for people to step in it or, you know, she'll presumably get more chances to reestablish. show Bonafida, so I don't, I have a hard time believing that this will have any staying power, because I don't, I'd be curious to know how many people are even paying attention to it right now. Yeah, it's a good, it's, it's, it's, there's just so much time that's left. I mean, I guess I think that gets floated like, what if there's an attack at, you know, yeah,

hey, I'm, I was, you know, part of the staunch resistance. You were over there in the Oval office being friendly with Trump. Yeah. But whether that sticks is an ad, I don't know yet. All right. One more for you. The Lakers. got finished off by the T. Wolves in game five last night. Man. Did you stay up for that? I did. Of course you did.

You're on the West Coast. I mean, yeah. You didn't have like nine something. Yeah. I was thinking during that game was like, okay, Luca Donchich lost in the first round of the playoffs. Do we think, and this is speaking of America's softest target, do we think somebody was like, hmm, should I float the, are we sure Nika was wrong take?

I mean, it occurred to me. Last night. I'm sure Nico has had a series of horrible nights over the past few months. That would probably rank somewhere up near the top, probably seeing that happen, though, in the way that it happened. 1,000 percent. Oh, yeah. 1,000 percent. Just sigh of relief.

Yeah, just like, oh, thank God. And, I mean, it was a first round loss to a lower-seated team. Like that, if you were trying to hammer home, like, that guy is fat. He doesn't play defense. He's not in shape and he's going to break down. Like, if that's the argument you're making. Yeah. It's not going to make the game five like the rest of America.

I'm saying, hey, you know. Watch the game for yourself and send me what you think, you know? I want to take you back to Lakers T. Wolves game four. Mm-hmm. So at the end of the game, Minnesota's up one. Anthony Edwards goes to the basket and LeBron James swipes at the ball. Ball goes out of bounce off Edwards.

Uh-oh, it's going to be Lakers down one with about 10 seconds left. Well, the referees look at the replay. And by look, I mean spend three and a half minutes looking at this thing. And this was one of the not great ESPN moments of the playoffs because three and a half minutes, I believe they took seven different looks at this play,

but took the entire time in all seven looks to realize that there might be a foul there. Yeah. And this is one of those cases. If you're just watching ESPN, you see the refs looking at the replay and one refs grabs his wrist twice, indicating that LeBron hit Anthony Edwards on the wrist. It wasn't just out of bounds off Edwards. But something happens in TV, Joel, a lot of times is the people that are making TV

don't watch the screen in front of them because they're busy with other stuff. So all of us at home are going, hey, man, it looks like they're about to call a foul on LeBron. Yep. But nobody calling the game or in the truck is watching television. They seemed a lot more. I was wondering, I'm like, what's going on here?

Did they not know that that is a fact, that that looks like a foul? I thought maybe they were coming up with some sort of crazy reasoning like LeBron later did that, oh, yeah, that's not a foul. The hand is a part of the ball. It was something along those lines. I'm like,

I know, that looks like a foul to me. But I thought maybe they just didn't, they knew something about the rulebook that we did not. Everyone was bailed out by the Sony Hawkeye Cam. Yep. There's a story, an awful announcing by Andrew Buckholtz,

which I recommend everyone read, that talks about how this camera came out or was put into use, I should say, by the NBA two years ago. There's a very particular image quality. I don't want to use the only in journalism word C. be atoned, but it reminds me in terms of the colors of the image of the double truck photos that used to run in SI when we were kids.

Oh, yeah. When I saw the photo of LeBron's hand on Edwards' wrist, I was like, oh, that is bringing something from my past to the front of my brain. It wasn't a Zapruder-esque to you? I guess, you know, maybe not quite as grainy. Maybe not as grainy. It was certainly an angle and a shot that I had never seen before on my TV before. Yes.

Yes. I mean, it almost looked like those old Neil Leifzer photos of the top down with Muhammad Ali, right? Like, it's just, first of all, it's just a very funny angle. Yep. Mm-hmm. But this Sony Hawkeye camp shows in game four that, in fact, LeBron committed a foul. Edwards goes off and sinks two free throws. The wolves win the game and go up three to one.

The same camera had also decided game. four of the Nuggets Clippers series, showing, in fact, that Aaron Gordon did slam the ball home just before the horn in a tied game. So this is an interesting piece of technology. It's interesting that it has arrived Deus X Machina style to decide

a couple of NBA games. It also points out to me, Joel, that how are we not having good conventional looks at these plays from all the cameras that are in use? It's crazy, man. And I don't say that so much as a criticism of the networks, but just like, I feel like every inch of everything is covered

by a camera now. Right. But we somehow have found the limits of sports television in 2025. I mean, it's, it makes me think about how often we've missed stuff in the past, actually. Mm-hmm. You know, like how many games? Because are you one of these people?

I don't know if you are, because I know that there are a lot of people, the viewing experience is ruined by having to wait three minutes. for officials to deliberate and make this call. And normally, I'm just a person that's like, I don't want to see a bad call to term in the game. So take as long as you need. And so I'm delighted at this, like, you know, I mean, it's not that I root for the wolves or anything like that.

But I was just like, oh, I would have, it would have, it would have felt weird if they had lost that game on what was clearly a foul in retrospect. And we did not know that it was clearly a foul. without this apparently novel advancement and camera work. Don't tell Nico Harrison, but they didn't miss a foul on Luca Donchich. New Luca Donchish was foul. They came out and said that afterwards, so we don't want to screw up any of those. We got to get it, right.

That's fair. I told you so it takes, but. Do you have any Luca, like, feel, like, are you anyway moved at all by this? Like, you didn't, did your fandom go to L.A. with him? It did. I just didn't feel this as the emotional kick in the gut that some, people did. Yeah.

I think it's terrible as a Dallas side and, you know, fan of those Mavericks teams that were giving the NBA lowest wins in a season record of run every year in the early 90s. Like, you know, it sucks. But I just, I'm not, you know, I'm not, you know, slamming my hands on the coffin like a lot of our Mavericks. Jason Gallagher, he's working at the ringers. I mean, he is, Jason is like, Jason has been the emotional center of this whole saga.

Man. Wow. But I haven't. I just don't feel it in that particular way. I mean, look, you know, I mean, one thing about it, I was like, you know, I have a friend that is a Lakers fan and I was watching, you know, we texting during the game. And it doesn't seem like a fun experience to watch Luca play.

That's got to be, you know, like when he's cooking, I mean, obviously, I mean, he's cooking. When he's cooking, it's great. But when he's not cooking. And yelling at the refs and, you know, running around the court with a bad back and stuff. I mean, he played pretty well last night, all things considered. But it was like, it was weird to watch. And it's weird when they're losing.

I got to say. Absolutely. Yeah, it was just kind of like, and I remember we got to the fourth quarter with like three minutes ago. And I was like, oh, there's no way the Lakers are winning this. I was like, they want to go home. Like they're trying to find a way to let the timber wheels pull away and they just can't. You felt some one, two, three, can't go and five. I felt so, yeah, Toulon.

They're like, yeah, man, we can't. What are you heading after this? All right, Jellie. Are you ready for some horse racing? I am, strangely enough. Yeah. Horse racing fan. We've got a horse now.

So, I mean, well, it would not be. All right, listeners of this podcast know we have adopted a horse for Saturday's Kentucky Derby. It's a horse named Journalism. Here to discuss the state of journalism and the threats to journalism is the host of NBC's Derby coverage. Mike Tariko. Mike, welcome to the press box. Brian, Joel.

Pleasure. You know, it's a sentence. that I don't think anybody thought we'd say in 2025, but journalism is the favorite. I don't think anybody saw that coming in the rest of the world, but it has brought all media critics out of the woodwork, and immediately they followed with, hey, you know, there's another horse named publisher in the race,

and journalism publisher would be a great exactant. So I don't know if you've heard there's a podcast somewhere where they kind of do the worn out media, a joke of the week? Oh, man. Rings a bell, but... Seems lame. Journalism and publisher

might be the duo. Just thinking. We've officially... We got it for this week. Thank you, Mike, for doing our work for us. All right. You're going to see our horse racing knowledge is a little iffy, perhaps very iffy.

So can you give us a potted biography of journalism? Best horse in the field. By a couple of lengths. Yeah, sure. Michael McCarthy, trainer of the horse Umberto Respoli

excuse me Italian born has ridden around the world the jockey horse that has shown in his starts to this point and again they're three year old

so we still have time to find out more about these horses but to be one who's got that every quality needed for the derby ability to handle traffic

ability to handle speed you know good showing in the in the significant prep races. There are so many things that happen. If I've learned anything in the eight, now ninth derby that I'm going to host, it's that everything that should happen doesn't. So as is the case very often,

journalism is on trial here. And if popular backing supports journalism, then it may not be something that's real at the end of the day. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. They're all, it's all too easy. I'm going to get them all out of me now. So this way on the air, I don't do any. It's my goal.

Mike, I want to ask you this question because it's sort of a, like, behind the things, behind the scenes thing here, but do you get an opportunity to, this is going to sound crazy? Do you get to meet the horse and the jockey and everything is part of this assignment? Yeah, I have a very in-depth conversation with each of the 20 horses. And, you know, you come back, realize it's a very one-way conversation. So listen, on Wednesday morning, I get up at O Dark 30 and join my two partners on the host set, Randy Moss and Jerry Bailey, who are just a great team, separate sidebar here. When you look back at historic duos on sports over the years, Randy and Jerry on TV will be right up there with the longest running and the best.

Most people love them. They're a good mix of humor with each other and complete command and knowledge of the sport. And they're so well respected. They go back to the barns at Churchill Downs, which is kind of beyond the first turn. And they go back at like six in the morning on Tuesday and Wednesday. I join them on Wednesday. And we just walk shed row and we go see trainers. We spent 20 minutes in the office of Steve Asmussen on Wednesday morning.

Steve has two horses in the race. He has publisher and he has TisTastik, the 13 and the 14. You know, we spent time with Bob Bafford, who I then later interviewed on Wednesday for a feature that runs in the show. We saw Lonnie Briley, who at age 72, is going to be a trainer in the derby for the very first time in his career. It's like one of those wonderful stories of a guy who always fought in the minor leagues. And I was getting his major league moment with a horse called Cole Battle. So, yeah, we go and talk to the trainers. we bumped into risk bully.

We'll see other jockeys over the next couple of days. The horses don't give us the best answers when we talk to them. But the other human connections, if you will, are awesome and they're great to deal with. All right. Here's an equally strange question. You and I have talked about how before Sunday night football game, you will study the roster. Right. So you can identify every player instantly as soon as you see them on a football field.

Do you study the appearance of the horses the same way? Good question. No. because I'm almost never in a position where I have to recognize them right away. Larry Coleman has to do that. And Larry's calling his 15th consecutive derby. Larry's awesome because all the race calls. Anybody calls a horse race is somebody I totally look up to in respect

because they don't call them off the numbers for the most part. They call them off the silks to the jockeys. So they memorize the jockey silks, which go with the owners. So Larry for the Derby, which is 20 horses, you're 20 horses half a mile away and go identify all of them and make it sound melodic and rhythmic and you're broadcasting second by second happenings of these huge, beautiful, fast-moving animals. Larry's calling them, boom, boom, boom. He'll take flashcards and memorize the derby field. But then they do it for 7, 8, 9, 10, 12 races a day. Race callers are, that is one thing in the.

this business that I don't think I could ever do. And that's call a horse race. I just don't, I don't see any way possible. I wasn't sure if I could do a hockey, a hockey game. I ended up studying and learning and figured out a way to do it. And it's hard. But calling a horse race might be the hardest thing that's done in sports casting. And Larry's excellent. So I don't have to recognize them at a moment's notice. So I don't have to look at, okay, which horse is gray, which course there's a little blaze of white in the front here or things like that, which makes life a little bit easier, for sure. Given all that, though, I mean, I'm wondering, because I ask you if you talk to these horses, but, like, it's part of the prep watching, like, watching clips.

Like, you have, you have to watch, like, watch clips and then the previous performances, things like that, is that how it works? Sure. Yeah. So, no, learning in the racing form, reading the racing form, knowing how to look at it is so much easier for anybody who's in this job. You could write your script, read the prompter, write your notes to the – and I'm not in a position where I'm ever asked to handicap a race. Thank goodness for the viewers. But I want to know what's the right question to ask. Or after the race is over, and my biggest part in the race, and it's small, in my opinion, is the 20 seconds after Larry calls the race, summarize its significance in two, three sentences. right that's the fifth for this guy it's the fourth for this trainer uh that's a stunning upset whatever that first headline is because larry's handling the meat and potatoes the business and he'll give you a little bit of feel in his call which is why he's special but then my job is boom frame it what does this historically mean 15 20 seconds and then get out of the way so you can

hear the jockey talk to the outrider and then Donna brothers goes in and does an interview with the jockey like a minute after you know that you can hear the jockey like a minute after after he's crossed the finish line. So that's what the deal is for me. In terms of prep, that's the easy part because it all happens as you go through. So when the Louisiana Derby or the Florida Derby or Santa Anita Derby, the Jeff Ruby Stakes, the Arkansas Derby, the seven or eight big prep races are run, I certainly watch those live. And then during the week, I go back on YouTube and watch the races again.

Because now you know, okay, I'm going to focus on flying Mohawk or Burnham Squids. which is the number nine horse. I'm going to focus on Burnham Square and watch what happened to him in this race. Oh, by the way, in this race, there was also another derby horse. So you go back and watch that. So you just have a sense. And hopefully you've seen the one that clicks in your head and say, hey, the winner is Rodriguez. That's the exact trip he got when he won this race.

And that starts the conversation of the connection with the horse player, the better. So you go back and watch the previous races. You watch them live as it builds up so you know who the characters are. But then for studying purposes and for handicapping purposes for the rest of our crew, they go back and watch all those prep races. And so do we. There may be a parallel here with the Olympics, Mike. But what is the trick to hosting an event where a lot of your viewers,

probably most of your viewers, don't know anything about the competitors? It's one of those good ones, Brian, because we piss off the hardcore horse racing fan. Because we'll explain that a maiden, you know, breaking your maiden means winning your first horse race. Like, oh, of course it does. Don't insult me. That's like saying, you know, at the Super Bowl, hey, it's a first down. You get four tries to get 10 yards and you're awarded another first down. You can keep going. Like, you have to do that. The difference is the NFL is seen on average by 20 some odd million and a much, much, much smaller fraction to see horse racing. So you've got to do a few more basics because it's not as mainstream as sport. So you have to hope that the hardcores understand that.

But you try to give them a little bit of something too. I like to say in our show, it's five plus hours for six races. You'll get everything from speed figures to fascinators, the hats that the women are wearing. We'll talk bourbon and we'll talk really hardcore betting. It's similar to the Olympics for the broadness of it. And it's probably more similar to the Today Show where you're, you know, I had the chance to fill in for four days when Craig Melvin was on vacation earlier this month. And at 719, you're doing a two-way with Richard Engel in Baghdad talking about nuclear talks in Iraq. And 64 minutes later at 823, I'm painting Easter eggs with Martha Stewart and Savannah Guthrie, right?

It's just like, it's the broad spectrum. and you just got to take people along for the ride. So you need to be prepared for that. So the Olympics and this stuff actually prepared me to do the Today Show a little bit. So you just got to understand the viewers are coming for a whole bunch of different reasons. So give everybody a little bit. Every half hour we give you a little bit of fashion, give you a little bit of the color in the scene, making this bucket list I want to be there event.

And at the same time, give me some handicapping information because I'm going to go on my phone and bet the race. I want to back up for a second, Mike, if we can't. You've been the host now since 2017, or the Triple Crown, done all this stuff. So were you previously a fan of horse racing? Like, had you followed it much? And, like, how did you end up getting this assignment? So I was taught by a great uncle

how to read the racing form when I was a kid. Didn't go to Belmont or I grew up in Queens, New York. Didn't go to Belmont or aqued up often, but would go a few times, often enough to, understand the culture on horse racing. And like a lot of kids in the 70s and 80s who watched sports on wide world of sports was the Kentucky Derby and the Freakness and the Belmont Stakes. And you'd stop and watch because those were big events.

And when Secretary won't in 1973, everybody stopped to watch the Belmont in our family. And you kind of knew about it and kept a close eye on it. And then when I got the Sports Center in 91 at ESPN, you just had to have that inch deep mile-wide knowledge base on sports that, okay, when the big derby prep races came up, where the derby came up and you're working weekend sports center, you better be able to, you know, hold your own there. So I wouldn't say that I was a horse racing aficionado. Now, over time, as the derby has grown, I was like, damn, I'd love to go there sometime. This looks like a fun event. And then it's evolved to when I got to NBC, hey, look, these are our

big events. We'd love for you to be a part of this. And when I was first asked to be a part of it, I thought that I would be doing a similar role to what Bob Costas had been doing, which was general host of the event from the infield. But Tom Hammond at that time was handling all the really significant horse racing conversation with Randy and Jerry. And at that point, they were asking me to step into that role instead, which felt a little overwhelming. And over time, hopefully, I haven't screwed it up too bad. And they keep asking me back. So that's a good thing.

All right. A few more questions about journalism before Joel hits you with his like. round. Let's get to the real news here. Yeah. Journalism has the number eight post position, which the AP says is very favorable. Why is that favorable? Yes. So 20 horses. It is one starting gate. It used to be two starting gates where you had 16 and one and then a second one with the other four. It's now one starting gate. That's fine. Really hard to win from the rail because you're kind pinching in a little bit and all the horses are kind of at a merge it. Think of the subways in Tokyo, the mass number of people getting out of the door quickly or maybe the American version is

getting off the tram at Hartsfield Airport in Atlanta where like everybody's like funneling into a small area, right? That's what it's like when this horse race starts. And in the eight hole, you've got a chance to find a place. Because so often you'll hear every horseman, human connection, trainer owner, talk about, did I get a good trip? Right. And a good trip means you don't get boxed in. You don't get shuffled around. There's a lot of bumping of these massive horses coming in as 20 funnel down to get closer

to the rail. Closer you are to the rail, the shorter the trip. The wider you are, the harder it is. In the eight spot, you can kind of find your place better than that 20 that's got to merge, you know, from the right lane all the way to the left exit, right? And they just realized it with a quarter mile to go. So eight's a pretty good spot. Those middle spots usually are good unless you just get really banged and squeezed coming out of the gate.

So eight, not a bad spot. Journalism was three to one at the beginning of the week. Who were the biggest threats, at least according to the odds? Yeah, sovereignty and Sandman, who are two horses on the outside going in, were put second and third choice. They are reasonably placed to factor in. There's some feeling that Burnham Square, right next to journalism, the nine horse, 12 to one shot, might be one to get in there.

Bob Bafford is the big story because he, one, has won the most triple crime race, is 17 as a trainer. Two, he's won six Kentucky derbies. Three, he was banned from the derby for the last three years because of suspension when his horse Medina Spirit won and was disqualified for testing that found a small bit of an illegal substance that was really more of a therapeutic than a performance enhancing substance or a horse enhancing performance substance. Bob's back. Bob's the biggest familiar face in the sport, the silver hair, the sunglasses, the whole deal.

Bob is back. And in our sit-down interview with airs during the show on Saturday, he was pretty honest about the fact that he is coming back. after making a mistake. He said it was my fault, that Medina Spirit has been positive. I've got to control that. I'm responsible at the end of the day.

I should have understood and said that I was sorry earlier, and now I'm back in the race. And the biggest name in the sport of any of the humans is back to the race. He's got one in Rodriguez, that's the four horse at 12 to 1, that has a reasonable chance

if the race breaks his way. But he's not one of the top two or three choices. but a Bafford horse here is always one that gets attention for a variety of reasons. All right. This is an abbreviated lightning round. Thank you. Okay. Okay.

This is not a huge one. Okay. All right. Favorite or most amusing horse name you've ever heard? Tariko. It was a horse named after me. Did nothing? One race hasn't raced since.

What race was it? Do you remember? Oh, it's just a regular average race on a. like a middle of the week card in Maryland. Yeah, it was not a big run. One of the horse racing groups, through a mutual friend, asked if they could name a horse after me.

I said, I don't care, sure. The horse didn't do much won once. I had no money on the horse. I know it's a lightning round. We've got to go quick. No, no, no. That's the most amusing me because why the hell would you name a horse that you want to go fast after somebody who has no speed?

Especially with a torn Achilles, Mike. Well, that's it. But I was healthy at the point when the horse won, Brian. A favorite place to watch a race? Your place to watch a race? I would probably say Santa Anita. It's just gorgeous out there. You know, it's just, man, Del Mar is beautiful, too.

I haven't been there enough. But I will say that the spot that Jerry Randy and I share on Derby Day on the first turn with the Twin Spires looking right behind us to watch those 20 horses come on that turn for the first. I take my camera out and have the same picture every year, and it's freaking cool. So that's my favorite, favorite spot for this race. What was the least fun thing you have to do when you cover the Kentucky Derby? The first or second year, I forget what year it was. Second year I did it. We had 3.15 inches of rain, the rainiest derby ever. And Dylan Dreyer, our NBC meteorologist, was doing fashion

stuff and weather. And Dylan said, well, the showers are probably going to end. The showers are probably going to end. And about three and a half hours into this show. I was like, hey, let's get an update. Will we get a dry slop before the rain? What's springing Dylan? Mike, guess what? It's not going to stop raining.

And we were just soaked through and through, lost a pair of shoes. I think that suit, and never seen the light of day again. 3.15 inches of rain, rainiest derby ever. Welcome to Kentucky. You mentioned that before we got started, that Louisville was a foodie town. What do you mean by that? What are the good restaurants? I mean, there are some good restaurants in Louisville.

The best restaurant scene after any sporting event is Jeff Ruby's restaurant in Louisville. Jeff has been a raconteur for many years. Was friends with Pete Rose in the Red Cincinnati Hayday. Has restaurants in Louisville and Cincinnati in the greater Ohio area as well. Jeff's restaurant after the Derby is a scene. It's got probably half the jockey. certainly multiple owners, most of the trainers. You can walk in there and see like a who's who of the current day thoroughbred horse racing

all packed in, plus all the beautiful people who have access. A lot of folks who love their bourbon and have that money in Louisville are all in. There is not one seat available. It is a loud, energized atmosphere Friday night and Saturday night. Two of my favorite dinners of the year, Jeff Ruby's, Louisville. but don't go there because it's too full. You can't get a reservation. Okay, I got two more for you.

Okay. Who have you been most surprised to see at the Kentucky Derby? Like you got there and you're like, you're here? You like this stuff? Yeah. You know, I'd say the number of NFL people like Brady Rogers, like Aaron Rogers, like, is a regular. This is a public, seen by people, guys trip. Like, Aaron would take offensive line and teammates.

Brady's brought Edelman, Gronk over the years, and it's just like, we're getting on a plane boys, and it's a boys trip. And they do the Friday, the oaks, and they hang, do dinner, and then go out Saturday to the races, and they're in a box. It brings so many people to be around it. And the celebrities and the beautiful people are like, oh, man, look, they're up there, they're up there, they're sit up there. And it's pretty cool. So I once, when Aaron was in one of those Aaron Rogers is going to play, not play modes, I went up and sat in Aaron's box and talked to him for about 45 minutes. Really, I listened a lot. And it was one of them. And it actually, the conversation got so compelling. And I was really interested in what he was saying that I had to hustle back to get on the set in time. for the show at 2.30. I'm like, hey, Aaron.

I got like eight more questions. I have to be on TV for the next five hours. And one of the very few times our producers were like, yeah, I was really worried about you. Don't worry. I made it. But yeah, all the football guys love the hang at the derby. Editor's note that he's still in one of those, will he or

won't he play, votes right now. And the last question is, so, like, I mean, you've done everything. The Olympic Super Bowl, Notre Dame football, such as it is. Such as it is. I'm a TCU guy. They were in the final, Joel.

Yeah. TCU's been in the final, too. I mean, I mean, there. Okay, all right. The Golden Dome, the Purple Frogs. Go ahead. Sorry. What's left on your bucket list?

You know, calling the Super Bowl. I've hosted the Super Bowl and gone to 20-something, but, you know, to call the game is the one. It's our Super Bowl this year, so health willing get the chance to do it in February. But yeah, that's the one. This was on my list. Like, go to the Kentucky Derby. Go to the Kentucky Derby and the Indy 500.

And then when I got to NBC, I had the opportunity to do both. And they've both been so much more than I thought. Like, I will miss Indies now on Fox. And I'm sure they'll do a great job. But I will miss being on the track on this little platform with all the cards behind us. and 250,000 people and just standing on a little thing on the entrance of term one with Danica Patrick previewing the race. It was like, that was cool. It was like still fun.

I'm going to miss that on Memorial Day weekend. But I never envisioned that coming to the Derby would become such a part of the highlights of my year. And it is. So yeah, these are bucketless things that I've been able to check working here at NBC, which is super darn cool. but the one that remains out there is to call the Super Bowl for me. So hopefully if people like Brian don't rip my football coverage for the next few months, I'll get the chance to do it in February. I'm here with him.

I'll work on it over the next few months. You got my back now. So thanks. He'll keep me in check. All right, Mike Torrico. You can find him Saturday at 2.30 on NBC. He's going to tell us whether journalism got the W or journalism finished in the money. We'll take either one.

Mike, thanks for coming on the press box. We hope that journalism provides its own chunk of gold, which is the name of the 19 horse. Thank you. All right, that is the press box. He's Joel Anderson. I'm Brian Curtis. Productions magic by Bobby Wagner.

Joel, we might have a 25 for 25 coming up next week. Oh, cool. I don't want to jinx it, but it might be about the future of NBA reporting. Oh, man. That sounds like a lot of fun. Sounds like people should tune in for that, huh? I think they should definitely tune in for that. I mean, tune in in the way that they would tune in for Pete Buttigieg on the Flagrin podcast.

I'm going to go look that up as soon as this is over. It's going to be that kind of fruferall. You sold me, so I'm on it. So if it's going to be that good, then maybe I'll show up too. Chewemakers back Monday. Joll, I'll talk to you next Thursday. Cannot wait to have more lukewarm takes about the media. Sounds good.

Look forward to everybody.