The Press Box - The Dallas Cowboys, the Netflix Doc, and Jerry Jones With Ed Werder

Episode Date: August 21, 2025

Hello, media consumers! Bryan and Joel start this Dallas Cowboys–centric show with their thoughts on Netflix’s ‘America’s Team’ documentary. They reminisce about the ’90s era of football and the media landscape then, discuss people’s affection for the Cowboys, and talk about why the documentary works. Next, Bryan and Joel welcome longtime reporter Ed Werder to discuss what it was like covering the Cowboys in the ’90s. They talk about how competitive the Cowboys beat was, how Jerry thought about reporters, and Werder's most memorable moment with Charles Haley (23:30). Finally, Bryan and Joel close the show with their reporting war stories about Michael Irvin and Emmitt Smith (1:08:33). Hosts: Bryan Curtis and Joel Anderson Guest: Ed Werder Producer: Kyle Williams Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Craig Horlebeck here to tell you that the NFL is back, whether you like it or not. And we are covering all the latest news, trades, rankings, and more on the Ringer Fantasy Football Show with my two co-hosts who are both named Danny. Check the Ringer Fantasy Football Show out on Spotify or on our new YouTube channel. All media consumers. Welcome to a very special edition of the press box. It's Brian Curtis. It's Joel Anderson.

It's producer Kyle Williams, who's sitting in for our own Kyle, Kyle Crichton. Joel, this is the first in a series of single topic podcast we're going to do here at the press box. And this particular episode is dedicated to the Dallas Cowboys and their media machine. Have the Cowboys been in the news, Joel? When are the Cowboys not in the news? This may be the better question, right? I mean, let's count the ways. The Michael Parsons contract.

Yep. The Netflix doc. I mean. Probably something Jerry Jones has said. That's going on you. It's just DAC is something going on with DAC or something like that. I'm sure some sort of, he's insulted him in some sort of way. Is Dak Prescott Elite asks first take in the A block once again?

We're going to do three things today. We're going to review the Netflix doc that just came out on Tuesday. We're going to talk to Ed Werder, who covered the 90s Cowboys for ESPN and the Dallas Morning News about what it was like to see Jerry versus Jimmy and Troy versus Barry and the White House. story and everything else up close. And then we're going to come back and tell some cowboys reporting war stories of our own. And Joel, here is the Columbia Journalism Review portion of the podcast. We're going to ask, could we take lessons the media learned by covering the Biden White House and apply them to the owner's suite of America's team and any team in the NFL?

I like what you do in there. Very thoughtful. You see, they just got a little bit of fine grain in the sports. in a sports podcast. Yeah, I like that. All right, first up, the Netflix documentary. You and I got screeners of this thing, but we purposefully didn't talk to each other. What did you think? So it's funny because I think I've gotten in the mind of two things.

One, I've kind of learned to temper my expectations around sports documentaries in general in recent years, particularly Netflix ones, right? And then there's a part of me that I've kind of forgotten over the years. So I'm just like, the Cowboys are always in the news. Like, what am I going to learn? You know, I'm not as excited, you know, as you would, you know. Yeah, just wasn't that excited to hear. I was like, yeah, I'm going to watch this, but I'm not excited about it.

Brother, that thing is electric, let me tell you. It moved me in ways I did not expect. It is so, and I heard you on the bill. Simmons show and there was a lot of comparisons to the last dance. I think it's good in ways of the I think the last dance is a compelling piece, a compelling documentary. I think that this is not only a compelling one. I think it's a great documentary, right? Like it just, it snuck up on me. And again, you know, you guys talked about this on Bill's show. The first five minutes are kind of hokey, like the Western theme and you're kind of like, is this going to be like that? I don't know if

people saw the Dennis Rodman 30 for 30, but they kind of did like. like some artsy type shit or whatever. And I'm just like, but they settle in. And then it's just like banger after banger, personality after personality. Just like, it is fucking incredible. What did you think? When the reason for that, and I totally agree with you, is, I think twofold. One is something that Simmons mentioned, which is there are so many people associated with the 90s cowboys.

Yeah, man. Let us list them. Jerry Jones, Jimmy Johnson, Michael Irvin. Troy Aitman, Emmett Smith, Charles Haley, Rupert Murdoch is in this documentary. But the first person that they interview after the intro is W. As in George W. Yeah, George W. Bush. Yeah.

Yeah. They got the judge from Michael Irvin's criminal trial. I like yelped when I was like, that was like, that guy talked, you know? Yeah. So there's so many people, but then there's just also so much story. Oh, my God. Yeah. Because I think that's part of what happens in sports stocks, even if you have something like the 90s Bulls.

What is the story of the 90s? Well, you have him getting beyond the Pistons in the Eastern Conference finals. You have, you know, Michael going to play baseball and stuff. But the Cowboys just have so much story. Yeah. This happened. And then this happened. And oh, my God, they fired the coach after two Super Bowl.

Like, what? Yeah. Yeah. I think that's kind of the thing that was. Because I've heard you say this. There's so much that you kind of took for granted that you forgot, right? Like, first of all, I kind of assumed that I remembered Jerry Jones's origin story about like how he got to where he got.

But like he owned a pizza shop. He owned like a local TV affiliate in Little Rock, right? Like this, that kind of stuff like, I was like, oh man, this guy has like a really interesting backstory, like how he got here. And they didn't even spend that. They spent sometimes. on it and mostly him talking about like his philosophy and like his time is sort of a wildcat or right but like there's just so much story and his hands touched so many things like you said on bills he had

a business relationship with jimmy hofer you know what i mean wasn't it interesting to you to go back to the 1990s oh man and revisit not only NFL football of the 90s but the media world of the 90s. Yeah, man. When everything seems so big. I thought cousin Sal made a great point about this where he's talking about that there was this level of media saturation in the 90s that seemed by the way, overwhelming at the time. Absolutely. Like it seemed crazy that Sports Center was on every night, you know, hour after hour talking about this stuff, that there was this new thing called sports radio. And I was listening to Skip Bayless in Dallas's show every night six to eight. Like that was the talking about Steve Burliner, Troy Eggman, call me right now.

Like, that was all happening. But compared to the media saturation of today, it was much less. And I think it had this weirdly weird effect of making the game seem bigger because they were not overshadowed by the other stuff, if that makes sense. It's tough to know who's the expert in authority now, right? Like the people who actually have real information as opposed to somebody that's aggregating it or just showing up, right? Like, because it's not quite the same thing. And obviously that media environment wasn't perfect. But like you knew, oh, if I go to Rick Gosselin, if I go to Mike Fisher, you know, who was at the Star Telegram.

Like these people are, you know, they're within the organization. They're there every day. They're getting this other stuff. And yeah, like you, I mean, you knew where to go. like if you told me right now like all right where's your primary source for the Dallas cowboys I actually where are you going you know the substack of Bob Stern who is a Dallas radio host and writer about the Cowboys you know I'm honestly reading a lot of those aggregating Twitter accounts to keep track of stuff it's different and I and by the way I

don't want to romanticize the 90s because I spent the entire 90s I bet you felt the same way thinking where can I get more I'm God. Because there wasn't enough. Oh, yeah. But again, having a kind of comparative scarcity of content about sports, again, when you heard Pat Summerall and John Madden's voice, that was the first time you'd heard that all week. You know, John Madden didn't have a podcast. Right. Right. Pat wasn't doing hits on first take in between games. Like you just, they didn't have Instagram pages where you'd be like, oh, here's me playing with my kids and, you know, selling Ace hardware. It all just. felt like there was less of it. Right. Everything was, everything that you consumed, you had to consume because you didn't, if you missed it, you might, you're not going to get a chance to run it back. Like, right?

There's no YouTube. There's no, you know, podcast that you get to re-listen to. Like you said, the radio show was a one-off thing. The TV segment, one-off thing. You probably, unless you, I guess maybe you could have had a VCR and recorded Sports Center or something, right? Sure. You got to watch the replay, you know, when it was going on in the morning.

or something. Yeah, right. But like, for the most part, you had to be there. Everything was sort of appointment viewing. And yeah, like, everything felt so urgent. And you can really feel that in the documentary. Like, even the stakes of the games, like, man, like, dude, taken, I mean, I have vivid memories of sitting at home in the days before a 49ers Cowboys game being like, man, George Toma, man, I wonder what the turf is going to be like a candlestick feel. Like, that seemed like a big deal at the time. Right. Even the sod god was huge. Yeah, the side guy. Yeah, man. Is it funny to you to see your childhood in documentary form?

Yeah, kind of. You know, and it's, we're old enough to see the 90s. It's actually more, I'm interested because like, you know, I really observed it at a distance as a kid, right? Like, I craved. I wanted the Houston Oilers to be like the center of attention. Like, very rarely where there's segments about them on ESPN or anybody doing. and they're talking about them. Like, they had to be good or play in a big game. Like, I remember when Buddy Ryan punched Kelvin Gilbride on the sideline during a game on ESPN once, you know?

And that was like, all of a sudden, you know, we were in the, the Oilers in Houston were in the news for something. But, like, for the Cowboys, man, like, it must have just been surreal to see all this stuff that you consume because, like, you know, from a distance, like, it's like, man, they always talk about the Cowboys or the Cowboys are a big deal. But, like, for you, you actually got the, live it. Like your, the team you grew up loving was like the object of national fascination. Um, did it seem that big in the moment or does it seem bigger in retrospect now?

It did because it hit me at the best and most vulnerable point of my life. Yeah. Jerry Jones bought the Dallas Cowboys right before I started middle school and the Cowboys won their third Super Bowl my senior year of high school. Yeah. Man. So those are years of, just maximum sports fandom. I had nothing else to do, but read Edward and the Dallas Morning News and listen to Skip on the radio at night and watch the games.

And I mean, that was it. Like, that was, that was my life. And, you know, when, when Jerry and Jimmy came in in 1989, I loved it. Yeah. I wasn't sad about Tom Landry. I was like, hey, here we go. I'm 11 years old.

This is it. It's our time now. It's not time for my father's Dallas Cowboy Coach or my grandfather's Dallas Cowboy Coach. It's time for mine. Right. That was just this whole new beginning. And I wasn't sad at all. Oh, man.

See, that's, yeah. I mean, and I knew of Tom Landry as a legend as an old guy, but yeah, I didn't. So the documentary mostly focuses on those successful years in the 90s. And there is a part where they sort of build through, but they speed through like the 60s and 70s or whatever, right? And I thought that to the extent that they missed anything, and we can talk about that later, but so it goes to Michael Irvin. He's the 15th of 17 kids raised in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. He's a kid in the 70s. The Miami Dolphins were a great football team in the 70s. He says I was a Cowboys fan, right? And so I kind of, I would have loved for them to have talked a little bit more

about how that happened. And there's theories about it because anybody that has ever been to a Cowboys game or whatever or there's a Cowboys fan club in every city in this country. I live in the DMV area. This area is a huge Dallas Cowboys fan base.

And part of it is that black fans have an unusual attachment to the Dallas Cowboys. Some of that is because TechSram drafted out of the HBCU. They had a lot of high profile, Bob Hayes, for instance. They had a lot of high profile black players back at a time when that just wasn't the case in the NFL. But yeah, like, I would have

loved for them to spend a little more time on that, but like, I don't have any real criticism because I understand why they had to move things along. But like for people that don't understand, like, wait, why are people fascinated with the Cowboys? Because you wouldn't have known if you grew up with Landry in the 80s, you know? And that's something when we think about the Dallas Cowboys media machine that it's important to understand is that Jerry Jones comes in. He's kind of a villain in 1989. The Hershal Walker trade before it becomes the greatest trade in NFL history at first looks like the Luca trade in Dallas. Oh my God. Yeah. Everybody thought he'd messed up or that they'd messed up. And not that they'd made a bad trade that like with Luca, Nico Harrison, they just didn't

know anything about football. Only someone who didn't know football would have made this trade. But what Jerry winds up doing is taking that great organic Cowboys fandom from the 70s, that America's team NFL films myth making. And then he adds to it. Yep. And I think one thing that this doc makes clear and it is present in almost every frame at the dock is that Jerry did that partly by making himself the main character of the Dallas Cowboys. Yeah, man. And as such, the main character of the NFL in a lot of ways. Jerry Jones is really fascinating. And again, I mentioned this later, uh, end of show it'll come up. But I think he kind of gets a raw deal. a lot of time because, you know, because he makes himself so available. And how many other

owners are giving interviews or like, you know, I feel the thing about Jerry Jones is that he is willing to take criticism. He may not like it. You know what I mean? But like he's willing to stick his face out there and put his name behind things and talk to people in a way that not very many other owners are. And like, of course, like there's ego attached to that. Right. Like he's banishing his legacy, right? But I do think that there's something. that I like about Jerry Jones in that way, that he's willing to be out there and to own his decisions and to take, like, I mean, people have been criticizing him for the last 20, 25 years, right? And like, he just, he's still out there. He doesn't shun the attention or he doesn't

push away microphones. Like, he's still out there. Most beat writers in the NFL get to talk their owner once a year. Yeah. Maybe once during training camp and maybe for a couple of minutes. Jerry is standing outside the locker room after nearly every Cowboys game before the doors to the locker room open. Yeah. So not only is he available, as you say in a happy way, he is saying, hey, talk to me

before you talk to any of the players that actually played in the game. Yeah, man. That is the dynamic there. And again, that's the thing that has kept the Cowboys in that first take, A block. Right.

Like, it's not just that they get ratings because there are a lot of people out there that love the cowboys and an equal number of people that hate the cowboys. It's that Jerry has this way of just becoming a character and a drama that people want to talk about. And as you say, not necessarily rejecting all the bad stuff. Oh, Jerry Jones, he needs to fire himself as GM. Okay, Jerry's like, okay, great, here we go. We're going to talk about this some more. Yeah. I'm going to give you more on this, this thing. do you are you are you now with the it your tom landry level with jerry like do you think like i mean obviously you balancing this as a journalist and as a fan like would you do you think it's

time for him to take a back you know a lesser role here i'd less time and a smile yes but it's always been time you know it's not like you know we could i just think when you look at his entire 30 year run is basically the single decision maker in the franchise. You know, there was Jimmy years. There was some Bill Parcell's years where there were probably multiple cooks in the kitchen. But other than that, it's been him. Yeah. And they haven't won anything.

They haven't want anything important. Right. So, of course, that's true. But at the same time, as a Cowboys fan, I weirdly, and this is probably probably because I got three Super Bowls when I was in high school, but I weirdly have come to just. just appreciate the soap opera. Yeah. It's frustrating, but there's something also kind of comforting about it because it's

been going on my whole life. Yeah. Oh, yeah, what are we going to talk about today? I told you want to pick up the phone and call relative. Oh, you know, we're going to talk about Jerry Jones and what he's been up to. And there is something about that as frustrating as it is and as nuts as it is. This just part of being a Dallas Cowboys fan. You're going to miss him.

when he's gone, I think. And I said this to Bill, man, that there is this whole heavy sense in this doc where these people are getting older. Switzer, man. Yeah. 86 moving all slow. You know what I mean?

Jim Kelly made me feel. I know Jim has had some health issues. You know, because he takes a big role in here because two of those Super Bowls were one against the Buffalo Bills. But yeah, like that guy, Jerry, again, again, Jerry, who's obviously very desired. I feel like this is the kind of thing that he's doing. He knows he's going into the Hall of Fame, but it's just like this is like his last,

you know, his last salvo, right? His last moment to kind of grab some of the thing. But yeah, these, I mean, it's sad to see people getting old here. Are we sure? It's his last. I mean, again, I think Jerry until the end will be like, you know, thinking of stuff, right? He will be coming up with things. And that's just what he does.

But there is a sense. is it there's a sense of mortality that this story this thing that was the Dallas Cowboys of the 1990s these people aren't going to be around forever oh man yeah I mean it's going it's winded down I mean jimmy looks old man Jimmy Jimmy who looked kind of perpetually cherubic but I was looking in him yeah I was like apple cheek yeah and I'm just like oh okay he's gone to any like Larry Allen wasn't in the document because of course like Larry Allen's gone down but it's just he had the time keeps moving on these guys and on us, of course.

Last quick note for you before we bring on Edward, every sports documentary now, or just about every sports documentary, is compromised in some way. Yeah. Either the subject is the executive producer of the documentary, or it is their story in such a way that things are going to be left out or glided over. Right. Why does this doc work despite those?

qualms. Because they are so, and I think this is what made them successful, they are so direct. These are all very direct people, right? And so they may get mad at you, but they will still answer the question. Because you can still see like the Jerry Jimmy stuff, for instance. Like I was, didn't you kind of gasp a little bit. It'll be like, wow, there's still, there's still some sensitive parts here in that relationship. Yeah.

They're just talking about this on the record, right? It would be much easier to say, hey, there was crazy, but we're friends now. We've gotten past it. But they, you can tell, they still haven't totally gotten past it. Yeah. Like, I mean, like, you can just tell that Jimmy still begrudgeonally does not want to give Jerry credit as a football mind. And, like, I kind of see both of them, but it's just like, that is still a tension that is going on there. But I also wonder about this, Brian, like, if maybe.

Maybe, well, you know, Michael already talked about this. You know what I mean? Like, when they got Michael Irvin because Michael Irvin, like, was clearly like, I don't give a shit. Like, you know, I don't, I'll say whatever, you know, when it comes to mind. Like, I am not afraid of any blowback or like, you know, whatever. Like he, like, he really sets a tone for like, I'm just, I'm fine telling it all, even about the White House.

And I think that's important. And it goes back to Jerry Jones because I think if Jerry understands anything about the media. both about the general ESPN print media and then specifically about a documentary like this. He understands it has to have the bad stuff to be interesting. Yeah. It has to have stuff that Jerry has used the word spicy to describe. Or is there some very spicy things happening off the field?

He understands that if you don't put spice in the dish, it becomes like one of those really boring-ass player documentaries. Yeah, man. And that's the thing. I just think he understands the assignment. like very few billionaires in our world do. Those guys have real confidence. They have real confidence.

They've had real success behind them. And so they're not afraid because I think the thing is that I think even that ugly stuff is all part of what makes them legends. And they're going to make them legends and Hall of Famers. And so, yeah, like, that's like you can get, I just was, it's shocking that all these alphas like, and then they bring in Dion and like Charles Haley. I was like, oh, here's another alpha. Yeah, here's another dude.

Yeah, it's like all these guys are alphas, dude. And I don't even like to use that terminology, but it's just like they're, they, they're real dudes, man. And they're not afraid of talking about the ugly parts of it because like, clearly they think it helped drive them to where people will be remembering them in eight part, uh, Netflix documentary series. You mentioned the aesthetics of this documentary earlier. And people who haven't seen this yet or haven't seen all of it will just love it because it starts out like a like a faux Western. Yeah. Almost a Wes Anderson western the way that all the principals are looking at the screen and their names are underneath them. Jimmy's looking pissed off.

Some of the other ones are smiling. Yeah, the long camera shot at Jimmy sitting in the chair with his arms folded and stuff. Yeah. Just Jerry at his dad's grave with the Rudyard Kipling poem on the gravestone. Oh, my gosh. Jerry in the helicopter. Jerry and the deer blind gun or the rifle. I mean, there's so many parts of it that feel like parity or they're edging right up to parity.

And yet somehow that's perfect for the 90s Dallas Cowboys. So that's what we think. Here's a man who covered it all up close and on deadline. All right, Joel, let us bring in one of my all-time favorite reporters, one of the best in the business. Edward or has covered the Cowboys for every medium in print for the, for the Dallas Morning News and Fort Worth Star Telegram on TV for ESPN and WFAA

on the excellent doomsday podcast with Matt Mosley, which you can listen to right now. On the Cowboys Beat, Ed has seen things no sports writer could imagine. Ed, thanks for coming on the press box. Thanks for the invitation. It's been quite a journey. I came to Dallas to write for the Fort Worth Star Telegram

and it was at an opportune moment. And it wasn't by accident. Part of the reason I decided to go there at the time was there was a regime change. You know, Jerry Jones had just bought the team. He'd hired Jimmy Johnson. They'd draft the trade for number one. And so I felt like I wasn't up against 29 years of the Dallas Morning News and the Dallas Time Terrell at the time, you know, having relationships with the key people involved.

We were all kind of starting at Ground Zero. And yeah, it's been quite an eventful career. Certainly never would have had the TG opportunities I've had if it hadn't been for the fact I was covering the albums. So as somebody who wrote those gamers and wrote those sidebars in the 90s, did you learn anything new from the Netflix stock? Yeah, there were some things I learned more about and some things that I never knew that nobody ever knew, like Jerry's disclosure that, you know,

he had been treated for cancer at MD Anderson. There were a lot of suspicions at a certain point about his health, just based on his appearance, and now we know why that was. The other thing I think I learned was when Eric Williams crashed his car after the game in Arizona, he was their starting right tackle. And he was the guy who really handled Reggie White in a way that very few past protectors and run blockers could. He dominated Reggie White, and he enjoyed that opportunity.

I did not realize that when he crashed his car, all of the, you know, that Emmett Smith and Michael Irvin rushed to the crash scene and helped extricate him from the car or saw him in the car and badly injured. And, you know, Eric Williams saying, I thought I was dead. I didn't realize that part of it. Well, there is a quick follow up there then. Did you know that it was as dire as they made? it seemed because they really made it seem like they thought that like he was going to flatline or something. Yeah, they, well, and he actually suggests he was very nearly, you know, very nearly killed in the accident. But I think if you hear like, I think the sound bite they used from

Switzer, who's the head coach at the time, the next day, he kind of downplays the whole thing as, Eric was in an accident. You know, we don't really know his condition and, you know, availability. No, I don't think anybody, we all knew it was serious enough to keep him. you know, to end his season and threaten his future. But I don't think any of us knew at the time that he was very nearly killed. And we certainly didn't know that prominent players like Michael and Emmett were actually on the scene, although I guess we shouldn't have been surprised that Michael was close by. What do you feel got left out of the dock, Ed?

I thought the biggest storyline left out was in, 1989, right after the Cowboys committed the first overall draft picked to Troy Aikman, they a few weeks later took advantage of the supplemental draft and used their future number one, their next year's number one, on another quarterback, Steve Walsh. That was totally missed in the documentary. Jerry said that was a storyline that surprised him the most in terms of being absent because, you know, they got into a little bit the mistrust that existed, the frustration Aikman felt, you know, early in his career to the point that he went to at least Steinberg's agent and said,

get me out of here. I want to go play somewhere else. Well, that's where that started. That started with the Cowboys picking Steve Walsh, a guy who had just won a national championship at Miami with Jimmy Johnson and so many members of the coaching staff that followed him to Dallas. And so, you know, I know Troy had been warned by Jerry that weekend that, hey, we might take a quarterback in the supplemental draft, but they mentioned Tim Rosenbaum. And then all of a sudden he's confronted with the reality that they just took the quarterback that Jimmy Johnson won a national championship with. And that created a lot of animosity within Aikman, questioning whether they were, coaches were committed to him or not, whether the organization was committed to him or not. But I remember, and fans didn't really know, well, which quarterback's going to be the starting quarterback?

Which guy's the franchise quarterback? And then I remember I just started at the Star Telegram not long thereafter. and I reached out to Jerry and I said, well, what's the Steve Walsh contract look like next to the Troy Aitman contract? And it was mid as school one compared to the other. So it's pretty clear the organization was committed to Troy Aikman. And yet some of the coaches still wanted Steve Walsh to be the starting quarterback. In fact, they went around the table before Jerry Rome, the offense reporter said, what are we doing here? Like, are we crazy?

Like this guy is one of the great pocket passers in the history of college football. have invested an awful lot and why were we even debating which quarterback is our future. But then as luck would have it, Aikman goes 0 at 11 his first year, his rookie year as a starter. And they win one game in a one in 15 season. And Steve Walsh was the starting quarterback in that game, not Ake. So that to me was a huge best storyline. Yeah. And I also thought they didn't bring up Mark Twinnah either because that does follow within that timeline, right?

And that's a pretty big deal, you know, one of their, you know, key offensive lineman dying of an overdose, but neither here nor there. Ed, you know, so there's been a lot of reporting and a lot of books that have come out of that era of the Cowboys. And just this morning, I'm like looking at Jeff Perlman saying, hey, man, that thing used a lot of my reporting from the boys will be boys books. So what do you think about? Do you think this was the most comprehensive account of that time or whether, is that something else that you think, you know, rivals it for that? Well, I still haven't written my books yet. So maybe that's to come. And I think that will be the most comprehensive accounting of all this.

But Jeff Perlman did write a book about the Cowboys during that period of time. But it's a little disingenuous in my mind for him to claim expertise on the whole. He was never around. He wasn't a beat writer. He wasn't in the locker room every day. He wasn't at all the games like we were. So, you know, I can understand him being irritated that he wasn't interviewed like Skip Bayless. for example, was.

But I don't think that you can argue that they ripped off his book and didn't properly, you know, credit him for that. There's a lot of people who knew all of these stories or many of these stories who had reported on them in detail at the time. So, yeah, I don't think they stole his book if that's what he's suggesting. A couple of memorable moments. We'd love you to revisit with us. The first Cowboys Super Bowl, January 1993 at the Rose Bowl.

What do you remember about that week in Pasadena? I remember that it was an absolutely perfect day on game day. I also recall the feeling that people were still shocked that the Cowboys had upset the 49ers at Candlestick Park to advance to this game. People still thought that was a team that was maybe, while a great collection of talent, maybe a year or so away from doing what they had the opportunity to do that day. I also remember in the lead up to that game that somewhat jokingly, we asked Jerry, you know, was he going to be available on a daily basis to the media to do interviews when the team did him? And he said to us, well, I don't know what other general managers do. And we really didn't consider Jerry the general manager. We considered Jimmy, a de facto general manager, even though Jerry was entitled.

But Jerry made it clear he was going to be very prominent, very available to me. media that week. But yeah, I just remember how, even though I didn't recall that Buffalo scored first, actually, but just the confidence that team had, the high level of execution we saw between, you know, Aitman and Irvin and Jay Novichick. And then as they created momentum and took the lead, the defensive line just, you know, took over the game and subjected to Jim Kelly to an unimaginable pass rush on a down-to-down basis. And it was a very, we were all shocked by the ease with which they won, given Buffalo's experience in the game and the fact that the Cowboys were perceived to be this young,

up-and-coming team that was a year ahead of schedule. And then I remember the next week going to the Pro Bowl and sitting on the beach in Hawaii with Aikman and doing this piece about him being the youngest quarterback at 25 to ever win a Super Bowls surpassing Joe Montana. So yeah, it was a monumental accomplishment that very few people expected at the time. And they played almost flawlessly in the game. You don't see that from the current Cowboys. In that documentary, Emmett makes reference to, and this is after the championship, the city is

amazing, especially when you're winning. What is he talking about for people that don't know Dallas very well or don't know the areas, you know, attachment to the Cowboys? It's probably like any other, you know, sports crazy town when their team wins. Maybe different for the Cowboys because they're such an iconic franchise and have been really since, you know,

very early in the Tom Landry era. So I think that's what he meant. And he meant that, you know, there's a lot of benefits that come with winning in a town like this. And the Cowboys exploited them all. to their own detriment. I remember being interviewed for a Michael Irvin documentary

by NFL films. And it was about Michael Irvin and his transgressions off the field and how detrimental they proved to be. And I put it this way. I said, Michael Irvin gave football everything he had. And he took everything at offer.

And that's true of him. And maybe to a lesser degree, some of the other stars on those teams. A lot of people have been talking about the Emmett Smith contract impasse, if you will, Ed, in 1993. It's the Cowboys win the Super Bowl. Jerry Jones and Emmett Smith can't agree on a contract. Emmett Smith winds up sitting out the first two games of the next season. They've been talking about it, of course, because the Cowboys are in this same situation with Micah Parsons right now.

How do those two events compare in your mind? And now everybody's wondering who's going to throw the helmet through the locker room wall and I'll hit Jerry. to provoke a change in his stance and get this Micah Parsons' contract resolved. What I remember about that is Jerry, I don't think he's misjudging the market with Micah Parsons. I think he knows. We've seen the top four pass rush deals sign this offseason. He knows what the market is and Micah's place at the top of that. Back in after, you know, Emmett led the NFL in rushing, the Cowboys handily won the Super Bowl,

His contract expires. He wasn't holding out. He was not under contract. Micah is under contract. Emmett was not under contract. And much like Jerry's arrogant comment that still bothers Jimmy Johnson to this day, about 500 guys could coach and win with that Cowboys talent, he also said something to the effect of,

hey, there's 20 guys flipping burners on McDonald's who could run behind this offensive line. And so he offended Emmett Smith in the same way that he offended Jim. Jimmy Johnson a few years later. But they were refusing to pay Emmett at the top of the market to pay him more than than Thurmond Thomas was making. Emmett obviously had a very good agent in Richard Howell at the time. And he did take the unusual step of missing regular season game checks. And that's what proved his value.

Like not having him for those two games when the Cowboys were horrible on offense. and couldn't move the ball in those games. They were playing a young, you know, player that they drafted from Alabama in those games. The locker room totally was against Jerry, as I assume it will be eventually with the Micah situation, if it doesn't get resolved early in before the season begins. But yeah, it was just, in this case, it was Jerry's naivete.

30 years later, I don't think it's the same thing. I think this is a much more calculated situation than what happened with Emmett Smith. You mentioned Jerry Jones versus Jimmy Johnson. That brings us head to one of the great scoops in NFL history. March 1994, Cowboys have just won two straight Super Bowls. You and your colleague, Rick Goslin of the morning news, are at the owner's meetings in Orlando. As I remember, it was late.

You were headed to the elevator and you want to pick up the story from there. Yeah, it was clear from observing Jerry. I've been, Rick Oslin and I were colleagues at the Dallas Morning News, and we were assigned the owners meetings. The Cowboys had, you know, won another back-to-back Super Bowls. In this case, you mentioned Emmett, you know, he missed the two games, and the Cowboys became the first team in NFL history to win the Super Bowl after starting O and 2. And they started O&2, as we've established, because of the contract they passed between Emmett Smith and Jerry Jones. And so Jerry a couple times had come over to our group of, maybe it does. sports riders sitting in this hotel lobby bar.

And at one point, he's kind of given me a hard time about, I was wrong about Emmett's value. And I was like, hey, you're, you're just fortunate that he came back and was fully committed to winning and, you know, doing whatever it took to win that Super Bowl. Because remember, he suffered that shoulder injury at the end of that year against the Giants and played through that. And then he winds up being the Super Bowl MVP because Aikman had a concussion in the NFC championship game and couldn't be the driving force.

like he was on offense in the first Super Bowl win. Anyway, so it's clear as we observe Jerry that he's agitated about something. And he's with Larry Lacewell, who's the team's director of scouting in a long time, confident of Jerry's. And at various times, Jerry is like hitting the table and anger as he's having this conversation. Well, it turns out, we found out later that he was aggravated about the fact that, you know, he went to Jimmy's table at Pleasure Island. which is not what it sounds like.

It was actually a theme park, which held an opening event at the NFL owners meetings. And he toasted. And Jimmy felt it was inappropriate because there were people at the table that Jerry had fired. Like Bob Ackles. His name's not mentioned did it by North Turner or Dave Wanstead and the toast that went wrong.

And anyway, so Rick Goslin and I and two other writers are the last four of our group. And as we're walking past Jerry's table, he reaches out and grabbed my pants leg and says, don't leave now. And I said, why not? And he said, you're going to miss the story of the year. And I said, what's the story of the year? And he said, I'm going to fire that MF and Jimmy Johnson, that disloyal SOB, and went on and on about this.

So we all thought it was worth having another beer for. And it certainly was. And to protect. to protect us from the two writers that I really didn't know that well and were only being exposed in this situation to Jerry, only had an audience with Jerry because they were with us, leaving at the same time. I basically said to Jerry and Lacewell, I said, look, you know, nobody's had, nobody has a notebook, nobody has a tape recorder and everybody's had a few drinks. So let's make this conversation off the record with the understanding, Jerry. that you'll provide us an honest accounting of your relationship with Jimmy tomorrow.

And I knew those other two guys were never going to get with Jerry again on this. So they all agreed to that. And I was right, Jerry the next day only met with us. He tried to downplay the whole thing. He tried to use the fact that I made it off the record against us. But ultimately, Jimmy is the one who put it on the record for us. So you go to Jimmy Johnson the next day and he puts it on the record. Yeah.

And now you have a publisher. story for the subsequent day's paper. Right. Jimmy knew what had been said, what Jerry had said about firing him and that 500 guys could coach this team. He knew all of that because Lacewell was trying to mediate the situation. And he knew Jimmy go berserk if he heard about this when he came downstairs for the first time, from some media member.

And so he went to Jimmy's suite or room and told him what had happened and thought he had calm Jimmy down. But Jimmy, when he found us and had the conversation with us, asked us what we were going to do with this. And we said, well, we found out about the toast, but we can't write the stuff that he said in the bar because it was off the record. And he said, you know, what do you mean you can't use it? Like ethically, we can't use this material.

It was off the record. And he said, okay, well, here's my comment then. And he said, you know, I'm leaving the meetings to go evaluate whether I want to remain the head coach of the Dallas Cowboys after hearing Jerry Jones in a bar repeatedly threatened to fire me last night. So we had our story and Jimmy backed it up by leaving. Yeah, could we just stop and appreciate that Ed effectively iced out two other reporters who are listening to the story of the century and then goes and gets it on the record the next day. Yeah, man. I mean, it's just, I mean, that is like a real testament to sort of like the,

because, you know, and Ed and Brian, and we will talk about this later, I spent some time in Dallas covering that stuff. It is not like a collegial beat core, right? Like it is extremely, like even amongst people on the same outlet, right? Like, I mean, it's very, it can be collaborative, but like it is an extremely competitive environment, right? I think it's different now than it was then. And I'm still involved in it to some degree. I'm not there every day. But I'm there frequently enough to know the dynamics of the people who cover the beat now versus those in play when we were covering the beat. When we were covering the beat, first of all, the Fort Worth Star

Telegram, which I told you, I began with when I came to Dallas, made the mistake that no publishing company should ever make and assuming that nothing of consequence is going to happen at these meetings. So while the Dallas Morning News sent two of us, the Star Telegram, our competition sent nobody. In fact, they had to pull the columnist from Port Charlotte covering the Rangers spring training to Orlando the day two to cover the aftermath. Wow.

Mike Fisher? Yeah, Mike Fisher was, he was on the beat. Mike Fisher, Richie Witt were on the beach. They were not at the meeting. Jim Reeves, Revo was the columnist covering the Rangers at the time who came over to Orlando on short notice and walked into this firestorm, which Jerry tried to pretty successfully tried to downplay in the general media the next day. He's, you know, I think in the, in the documentary, you see him coming out of the meetings and being confronted by a huge group of reporters reacting to our story who are asking him about this.

And he basically says, you know, what happened was, is I made a toast. It didn't go very well. So I left and when else were to toast, you know? And he kind of laughed it all off. And people who didn't know the seriousness with which all of us was being said failed to grasp the gravity of the whole thing. And I'll be honest. In the moment, I really didn't think that I thought when Jimmy left and only, you know, conveyed any thoughts he had through his emissaries to us at the Dallas Morning News during the week that he was absent. I really thought he was just going to let Jerry twist in the wind with these comments that were so foolish.

And then I thought he would come back and coach the team. But ultimately, that's not what happened. That's so funny. You know, and also they talk a lot about the effect of the Dion courtship and signing on the team and that locker room. Can you talk a little bit about like the impact yet? Because also like, and I shared this with Brian and people, if you have kids listening, I'm just going to give you the warning that I'm going to give this Charles Haley quote because I thought it was incredible. Like Charles Haley comes into where Dion is in the, I guess is the Valley Ranch meeting room or something. He says, quote, let me join the crowd of sucking your dick.

So this is Charles Haley quote. Okay. So can you just talk a little bit about what people thought about Dion as he comes into Dallas there? So this was after the Cowboys had won back-to-back Super Bowls, then lost to the 49ers in the championship game with Barry Switzer as a head coach. And Dion was obviously in that game, either matched up against Michael Irvin or taking away Alvin-Harper one. Michael Irvin was double cover. And he made arguably the key play in the game when he broke up a pass from Aikman to Irvin.

It should have been a touchdown. But I think what people don't know, and the documentary doesn't get into this, was this didn't happen until the Cowboys played their opener against the Giants on Monday Night Football, and they lost their starting corner, Kevin Smith to an Achilles tear. And so they knew he was out for the year, and they knew this was a huge liability on defense. And so they reacted accordingly. And the fact that they were taking him away from the 49ers was certainly a big part of Jerry's he knew he was weakening what they viewed as the only other team capable of preventing

them from winning a world championship. And, yeah, there were certainly, I think, questions about how those dynamics were were going to work in the locker room. But the players were smart enough to, that they had played against Dion and respected his game and understood that they really needed to do something of consequence on the defense to replace Kevin Smith, who was a first round pick,

that they accepted all that Dion was going to bring to the locker room and how that was going to change, you know, things. Obviously, Michael Irvin was, lobbying for it from the very beginning. I think there were probably other players who had some degree of hesitation who didn't initially love the way Dion Sanders

behaves and gets attention. But they all recognize what a great player he was and that what an amazing fit that would be athletically on their team and addressing a position of real neat. Here's another mind-bending story

the Netflix doc gets into. The relationship between Troy Aitman and Barry Switzer in 1995 the year the Cowboys won their third Super Bowl? What was it like for you to cover that? Well, you know, obviously when Jerry says he's going to, the 500 guys could, you know, win the Super Bowl with that talent, he decided to go to the other end of the spectrum from Jimmy Johnson and hire somebody who coached it a completely different way. Couldn't have been more different than Jimmy Johnson, right?

Jimmy is demanding, he punishes guys, he challenges guys, play psychological things. That's not Switzerland at all. And a lot of people knew the history between Barry and Troy. Troy left Oklahoma, was recruited Oklahoma from Henrietta, by Switzerland, was promised that they were going to change from the option-style offense to a drop-back passing game to accommodate Troy and recruit accordingly.

And they actually did. And then he breaks his leg early in the season against who? Miami, Jimmy Johnson. And so, but the thing that people didn't know was Troy didn't leave Oklahoma because he felt like Barry didn't honor his word when he was recruiting him. But he actually has credited Switzer with helping him get to UCLA. Like, Switzerland reached out to Terry Donahue on Aikman's behalf and sold Aikman to Terry Donaghy. and made sure he got where he needed to be

and was a large part of allowing him to have success and be the number one pick in the draft. What Troy didn't know, couldn't have known at the time, and I think he speaks to it in the documentary, is this Barry Switzer that they got in 1995 after five years on his couch in Norman, Oklahoma, was completely different competitively than the guy he had played for all those years before.

I mean, Barry didn't really want to work anymore. He didn't want to coach anymore. He never had any affinity for coaching the NFL, but he just couldn't pass up this opportunity. It seemed too good. And he was smart enough to know, hey, I can probably go win a Super Bowl if I don't screw it up. And that I think was his only goal was, don't screw it up.

And he didn't. He tried. It almost got screwed up because of the dynamics that came to play later, ultimately with right before that, you know, 95 Super Bowl, the last one they were in, the one they won with Switzerland as a head coach, with the, you know, racial accusations made against Troy Aikman by a coach that Switzerland brought with him from Oklahoma, John Blake, was the first one to make this accusation that, hey, Troy only criticizes African-American players. And then Switzerland, in Troy's mind, committed a,

an unforgivable sin when he gave that credibility by forcing Troy to come to his office and answer questions about that. Troy thinks that should have been quickly dismissed by Switzer, and it wasn't. And so that affected Troy and really took all of the joy out of winning that last Super Bowl for him. And are Barry's guys bringing those stories to you as a reporter and saying, why aren't you writing this in the paper during that period? No. that came out the week of the Super Bowl, as I recall, while the team was in Arizona. Like maybe even after all the access,

it was maybe a Friday or Saturday before the game story. We had known that there was some kind of issue, but we didn't know all of the details. And obviously, on a story of that magnitude, but that serious an accusation, I think Aikman would have had to have addressed it publicly and with a quote attributed to him,

for us to meet our journalistic standards at the Dallas Morning News and report that. So it went unreported, I think, until if I'm not mistaken, and it was a long time ago. I think it came out like 48 hours before the kickoff in Arizona, whether he beat Pittsburgh. But it's amazing that Aikman was able to overcome all that. And he overcame it in a situation where the Cowboys were playing themselves out of the playoffs at the end of the season. They should have lost a game to the Giants. And I think this was a game where he was cited

for criticizing Kevin Williams, who was a former number one pick from Miami. Everybody's from Miami and all this. And he was the one, apparently, who drew the ire of Aikman and led somebody John Blake ultimately to point out, hey, it seems like Troy only criticizes the African-American players on this team.

And, you know, we'd never heard. But there was never any evidence of that. Troy was demanding of everybody, which is what he says. Like if Jay Novichak or Daryl Johnson or Mark Stepnoski would have screwed up all the time, Aikman would have been all over them too. I mean, I think he showed his commitment to his teammates, regardless of color, when he was the only one who went to court for Michael Irvin. And there's a lot of story that went on with the Dallas Cowboys in the 90s.

How did that affect your non-reporting life during those years? the only thing worse than trying to cover the cowboys and all of their on and off the field ex-place was covering Brett Favre and all of his on-again, off-again retirements, which I did for ESPN. Yeah, I mean, the thing about it then, I mean, at least there was no social media at the time. I can't imagine what that would have been like, you know, with a 24-7, 365 news cycle that exist today and all of the people who pretend that they cover the Dallas Cowboys who don't, who aren't at the facility but claim to have sources and so forth.

And it's arguably the most competitive beat there is. Even when I was doing it like people who had been at the in the Dallas market who moved on elsewhere were always calling with a fascination about trying to break news and, you know, provide their newspaper insights that were unique about this franchise. if all of this had been going on and there were social media posts all the time, it would have been, I'm not sure I could have withstood it.

I mean, it was too demanding and too imposing on your personal life. And it was imposing on your personal life as it was. But we just needed to know as beatwriters, whatever there was to know by 10 o'clock at night. You know, we didn't have a deadline at 4 o'clock. We didn't have get beat on Twitter at 2 o'clock or some other social media platform.

We didn't have to monitor all that all the time. We either knew or the newspaper next to us knew. One of the four of us was going to report the news the next day. It wasn't one of 100 people that could break the news at any point in time. So it was probably arguably easier at the time to control all that. It was certainly easier for them to work below public notice than it would be now. I mean, with people with a phone and pictures, I just can't imagine what that would have been like of the gentlemen's club in Dallas.

Can I ask you? Because this is actually just sort of like a reporter's sort of question about like how people arranged their life. Maybe young reporters could learn how to benefit from this too. Because the Dallas Fort Worth area, huge, huge area, right? So in the old training facility Valley Ranch is like off 635. It's like, you know, kind of near Irving or whatever. Where did you live? Like how did you like, what sort of arrangements are you making in your life to make sure that you're is plugged in with the franchises you need to be? Well, like anybody who has to be at a facility, you want to make that drive a reasonable one. And so I lived in a community called the town of Flower Mound, which was about 15 miles from the team facility in Capelle, Texas, and about 20 minutes from the stadium, Texas Stadium in Irving, and not too far from the courthouse downtown is what I told people. I wanted to live equal distance to those three places, the team facility, the stadium where the games are played in the courthouse in the offseason. And so I did. And I also remember that in the off season, we were out there every day in the off season because the players really didn't leave town and did Dallas to go work out somewhere else. And so it wasn't unusual at all that, you know, Troy, Emmett, Michael, Charles Haley, Darren Woodson, you know, would walk right by your office cubicle. And if you needed them, you could have access to them.

And I remember one time, Dave Smith, great sports editor at the Dallas Morning. He was a very demanding guy, calls me up and says, hey, Warder, you got to remember, you don't work for the Dallas Cowboys. We want you in the offseason, you and Kalashaw. You need to be downtown, you know, going out to lunch with your colleagues and working from here and engaging with people that you're co-workers and so forth. And I said, Dave, that's an insane idea. And I said, like, if you can tell me that when I sit at my desk downtown at the Dallas Morning News in August or April that, you know, Troy Aitman might walk by or Michael Irvin might walk by, then that's where I'll be.

But that's the last place these guys are going to walk by. So how about if I play softball on the Dallas Morning News softball team with my colleagues and friends and coworkers? but I cover the team, I deliver my professional responsibility to you in the newspaper by being present where the players are. And ultimately, he agreed to that. Ed, I think you could teach an entire college class about Jerry Jones's relationship with the media. Two questions here for you. What did Jerry think of reporters?

And what did Jerry Jones think of you? Jerry, you know, always, has always liked the media. and he certainly coveted the attention that it delivers. You know, it's interesting because I've been reflecting on this since I've been watching the docu series and it's like when Jerry came in,

like people hated him here. They hated him for being from Arkansas. They hated him for firing Tom Landry, even though most of the fan base was done with Tom Landry at the time. But Jerry fired Tom Landry, the franchise icon. And then he turned the whole franchise upside down and away that was very untraditional.

And then he crossed the traditional lines of ownership and coaching with the whole problems that emanated with his relationship with Jimmy. And then he ended that relationship. So, yeah, Jerry, I would just take issue with people. There are people in the media who say, hey, Jerry likes criticism. I would say Jerry doesn't like criticism. He's punished me for what he's considered unfair criticism. I can also tell you that he came up to me after I got laid off by ESPN and returned to ESPN and covered my first Cowboys game after that experience.

He came up to me and he goes, I can use you last year. You and I are a lot of life. He says, we both know how to start up. So it's been good and it's been bad. And, you know, like I feel like half the people in Dallas think I'm a homer and half the people think, I'm a hater, and I kind of think if you're objective, that's kind of where you should be, where, you know, each side has misgivings and each side has some level of trust. But Jerry has harshly punished me before by leaking a story of consequence to my rivals.

After I wrote a story, so after his split with Jimmy and hiring Barry, I wrote as a freelancer, a story for Inside Sports Magazine. And my first line was something like this. For all of his power and influence and wealth, Jerry Jones will forever want the one thing he can never have. He'd rather be Jimmy Johnson. And that struck the mark, I think exactly still to this day, but he saw me the first day of training camp in Austin, Texas,

at St. Edward's University, and he put his finger in my chest, I can't tell you how many times, yet swore that he was not going to punish me. And the next day, he announced, one-A story in our rival paper, the Fort Worth Star Telegram, that he was putting Tom Landry in the Ring of Honor.

That's unbelievable. All right, Joel has a quick lightning round for you, Ed, before we get out of here. Welcome to the Lightning Round, a Jill Anderson special. round time. Okay. You said quick. Stop it, Brian. Stop it. I'm just joking. Okay. And you can

answer this as yourself if you'd like to, but who do you consider the dean of the Cowboys Media Corps? Randy Galloway. What a name. There we go. What a name. Can you give me a Mount Rushmore of people who

are responsible for the success of the Cowboys in the 90s? Jimmy Johnson. Troy Aikman Jerry Jones Charles Haley That leaves me to pick between Emmett Michael I like how Haley got a slot though

Yeah I couldn't believe he put Haley in over the trip Well first of all that he wasn't on the 49ers And Jerry has said many times We could spell the Super Bowl without Charles Haley So I tend to agree with him on that They didn't win it all until they had him And they won it right away once I acquired him and the 49ers made a huge mistake in that regard.

That's the same mistake Jerry would be making if he trades Michael Barses to Green Bay, in my opinion. I guess I have to say, I have to say Emmett Smith. Even though Michael Irvin was kind of the heartbeat of that team, I think you have to have, you have to have Emmett and Troy. Most memorable interaction with Charles Haley. Wow. I don't know. There's so many I can't even describe

in this medium appropriately. I'm the guy who said MF on the documentary to the shock of most people who know me. I really I can't cite one other than when I sat down for he might not being at my table at

the Hall of Fame and he was very civil and cordial which was not at all the way he was when he was a player with the media. So he was on his meds and that I honest best behavior. When was the time that you least wanted to go into the Cowboys locker room, like the most uncomfortable moment you knew, oh shit, I'm going to get it when I go in there?

It was when I reported for ESPN that Terrell Owens was a toxic figure in the Cowboys locker room to the detriment of Tony Romo, Jason Witton, and other players, and that the Cowboys were going to consider letting him go in the offseason, despite his enormous cap. and despite being one of their two or three very best players. And I was not disappointed when I walked in the locker of the next day. It was threatened with death by Tank Johnson. Damn.

Tank, John, that's where that. Best non-Hallof-Famer to interview in the Cowboys locker room. Darren Woodson. Yeah. Who should be a hall of favor, by the way. Absolutely. He should. He absolutely should.

Just a guy who always shot you straight, who always knew the inner workings, always had an understanding of the context of every situation, and yet could be trustworthy and honest on or off the record. All right. Just got a few more, I promise. You said Michael Irvin gave everything to the game and also took everything that it offered, but there were some other cowboys that did. What other cowboys are you thinking of?

Who are you comfortable? Can you say one? Nate Newton. Okay. That's pretty good. Yeah. That's a pretty good. Okay.

What place did you hear the Cowboys hanging out the most in Dallas off the field other than the White House? Cowboys Cafe. Cowboys Sports Cafe. Yeah. That's where they met the inch high private eye who shows up in the documentary, much to my surprise. I forgot about him. I forgot. I didn't forget the trial.

Michael's showing up in the fur coat. We didn't know it was a statement directly to the DA who had, you know, made, personal threats about Michael. But that's why Michael showed up in 95-degree Texas heat, wearing sunglasses and a big full mint coat. But I forgot about the death threat to Michael and that somebody actually went, a former police officer, actually the prison for that.

I forgot about that part of it too. So I guess that's it, yeah. Cowboys Cafe was kind of the place where they would all go. Obviously, there were some gentlemen's clubs that they frequented. But Cowboys Cafe was kind of their main hangout. Okay. Strangest place you ever interviewed anybody from the Cowboys.

I interviewed Michael Irvin in the team's hot tub. He was in. I was not. I was about to say. I was like, wow, okay, you got really comfortable. He is shorts. And this is the last one. I don't think you're going to be able to answer it, but I've got to ask.

Okay. What can you say? about Barry Switzer and Larry Lacewell's relationship and why it fell apart. Well, people probably don't know the background of that whole situation, but Larry Lacewell was on, this isn't really a lightning round question. I had to ask it because it's just, yeah, I know. So in addition to the relationship, he had, a relationship of history you had with Jerry and with Jimmy and with Troy,

Switzerland had a relationship with Larry Lacewell, who was his defensive coordinator at Oklahoma. And I believe this has all been confirmed now. But Lacewell, as I mentioned, was Jerry's right-hand man with the Cowboys when Jimmy was fired and Jerry was going to hire Switzer. And reports were that Switzerland had a relationship with Larry Lacewell's wife. And that this relationship sometimes involved Switzer leaving practice, putting Lacewell in charge of the team, and then going to meet Larry's wife at the time. So Jerry is aware that this could create a very unique dynamic in the front office with his right-hand man. And so before he announces his Switzer hire, he calls Lacewell in.

And Lacewell is a great storyteller and an incredible personality. and was a good coach at one point. And he has this conversation with Lacewell before he announces a Switzer hire, and he says, hey, Larry, you know, I'm thinking about hiring Barry Switzer, and I know, you know, the past history between the two of you, I need to know, is that going to be a problem? And Lacewell was smart enough to know that if the answer was yes, the result was not going to be that Jerry was not going to hire Switzer, the result was going to be he was going to fire Lacewell. So Larry said, oh, no, not a problem at all.

And so the two of them wound up coexisting perfectly. Yeah, but that's that story, which also wasn't in the documentary. I was going to say, it's a sign of how crazy the 90s cowboys were and how crazy that beat was that that would be omitted in an eight-part documentary. Edwarder, check him out on the Doomsday podcast. It's so much fun to talk to you. Ed, thanks for coming on the press box. Great.

talking with both of you guys. I appreciate the invitation. All right, back with Brian and Joel. Let's tell some war stories of our own. You tease this one to me. I did? The reporter Joel Anderson. Oh, yeah, man.

Had an interesting interaction with Emmett Smith. I need to hear this story right now. Yeah, so this is in August of 1998. So this is the end of my summer internship with the Fort Worth Star Telegram. The first professional job I've ever had in journalism a few months. I'm a few months out of football. So I still think of myself kind of fundamentally as a football player. You know what I mean? Like a year before I've been playing. And so I'm just, and so they, I'm, they assigned me because, you know, there's not much for interns to do in the summer.

So they're like, the Cowboys had a preseason game against the Raiders. And I was just going to be kind of like quote boy. You know what I mean? I'm going to run around, get quotes to help feed the main bar, the main story and the sidebars and everything else. So the Cowboys lost 16 to 3. They looked pretty bad in this game, right? It's preseasoned, but they still look pretty bad. Emmett, I've been trying to find his steps from that game. They weren't great, but it was something like, I don't know. Let's just say he averaged two yards of carry. I don't even think it was that much. So there's a moment in the locker room. This is my first time in the Cowboys locker room after the game at Texas Stadium. And Emmett gets out of the shower and he's, you know,

getting suited up and he's in his locker and I walk up to him. And I just remember, man, I'm like, God damn, man, Emmett Smith has huge thighs. You know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, his legs crossed and everything. And I go up to him and I'm just like, Mr. Smith. So, um, you hope you don't mind if ask you a question. He's just like, you know, nods. And he goes, I go, um, hey, did you, um, so did you, what did you think was wrong with the running game out there today. Like, what do you, you know, what went out there today? Emmett Smith looks up. Who the fuck is this kid?

Who is this kid? What? What? What kind of question is that? What kind of question is that? And then everybody, and you're like, it's like the worst thing that could possibly happen to like, somebody that does not have a lot of confidence in the locker room already. And then like, you could see the like the other cowboys, you know, beat reporters start grab, you know, they, like they look up and start gravitating over. And, Slowly but she'll, Emmett did not answer my question, right? Or you're like, you know, I didn't, I didn't get anything good. And then I kind of got squeezed out because, and that's when everybody realized that Emmett was now available. So that was my first experience asking a question

in Texas Stadium. Emmett Smith baptized me. That must have been heartbreaking for you as a running back yourself. I have, I had in, I think I still have, I was just home, a Reebok poster of Emmett Smith in my closet. You know, I wasn't even. a huge Emmett Smith fan, but I, like, respected what the man had done. Yeah, that, that, I was thinking, you know, maybe, you know, I still like, I play a little ball or something. Like, maybe he might, you know, you know, we might have a little rapport or something, but no, it did not, it did not come to pass. And he was such a mild guy. I mean, Emmett, very rarely said anything especially quotable during those Cowboys years. I think, like, kind of right at the end,

he had that comment to Peter King where he called himself a diamond surrounded by trash. Yeah. It was like the one Emmett Smith quote, I remember. my entire life. Oh my God. Yeah, well, you know, man, again, this is the end of that dynasty. They're not good. He's getting beat up. You know, everybody, you know, that locker room was falling. And that summer of 98 was really bad. Like, that is the Michael Irvin summer where he's going through his problems. Mark Tweney had overdosed and died a former cowboy's offensive lineman. Former starting to tackle. Starting a tackle had died that summer. There was the Rich McIver situation that it's going on. So there was a lot swirling around. I'm walking into that locker room at that

time. So I'm just, I have tried to not take it personally because I don't think it was. I just think he was in a really low moment in his cowboy tenure there. I got a Michael Irvin-Wart story for you. Please tell me. 2016. I'm profiling the playmaker for the ringer. And I was up in Seattle because he was doing NFL network stuff before a Thursday night game. And I had the whole Michael Irvin experience. The night before we're meeting for dinner and he's like two hours late for dinner, but has also invited a guy who is his barber slash hairdresser.

So it's me and the hairdresser there for the two hours making conversation before. Herb shows up. I mean, him kind of going off to run errands the next day. I was just, there was all kinds of wonderful moments. but we're sitting there talking in the green room during the Thursday night game and he's talking about the old days. And he gives me this quote. He says, if I was with two women, I wanted to have four. With four, I wanted to have six.

Now, Joel, you've had those experiences as a reporter where you're like, Oh, I thought you were about to say you've had those experiences. I was like, what do you account? No. No. You've had those experiences as a reporter. We're like, that quote will go into the story no matter what. We may just tweet that quote out and forget about writing the story all together.

That's so good, man. But when I got home from Seattle, I'm listening to my tape. And for some reason, there was a little hitch in the recording just as he said that. Oh, no. And I don't know if he'd been, like, touching the recorder on the, you know, chair next to him. something happened. So I'm sitting there. I'm like, I would swear he said that.

But that's kind of a quote. You have to get right. Right. You want to really make sure that that is in stone. So a couple weeks later, I have a follow up with Michael Irvin at the NFL Network Studios. He's just done the pregame show. So he's sitting there and he's eating lunch. And I started out with like five or six bullshit questions.

just to get him warmed up. And then I'm like, hey, Michael, had a little issue with my recorder. I just want to read you a quotation to make sure this is correct. And in the most monotone Brian Curtis voice, imaginable, I go, if I was with two women, I wanted to have four. With four, I wanted to have six. And Michael Irvin and I lock eyes and he goes, sounds like me. There's just nobody like Michael Irvin, dude.

There's nobody. There's nobody like that. Can you imagine being the alpha of not only the University of Miami, but the Dallas Cowboys? Like what kind of personality it takes to be the alpha personality in both of those locker rooms? There's one person on earth who could have pulled that off. Oh, yeah. Maybe Jimmy Johnson, you could argue, but that's from a coaching standpoint. It's a little bit different.

Michael Irvin is. Michael Irvin's the guy. One of my, I have a, this isn't really an Irvin, Irvin story, but during that summer, that chaotic summer in Dallas, I was there one day when Michael Irvin, this is after he'd been accused of cutting. And they didn't name the offensive lineman in the story, I think, Rich McIver. He cut in line with some scissors trying to get a haircut. And so Michael Irvin was mad all off-season. And the thing that I remember from that summer is that, and I'm trying to remember which reporter it was, he accused somebody.

Somebody he had written something about how his body, like in a piece, and how in shape Michael Irvin was. And he, so he indelicately accused this reporter of looking at his body. You can imagine the part of his body that he was saying. He's like, oh, you in here? Look at my, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he was, it was just a day where he's yelling this all around the locker room. I just happened to be there this day. Like, I'm not there for any special reason. But that is like what Michael Irvin was doing on like, you know, let's say a Wednesday at Valley Ranch. And that was the stuff that didn't get in the paper. Stuff that didn't get in the paper, man. Yeah, man. It just, what a, just a crazy K.

place at that point. One last note for you about the Dallas Cowboys in their media machine. Yeah. When I'm watching the jury interviews in the documentary, I'm thinking, is there something that the media learned during the Biden administration? Hmm. That we should be applying to NFL owners. And by that, I mean, should we be asking, and that, I mean, should we be asking, and that,

then asking again and asking again and asking again if these guys are up to the task of running football teams. That's like good. That's an interesting question. I mean, that's, I mean, that is our political establishment, like how old it is, right? I think the thing is, is that with Jerry Jones, because the thing is, like, I think Jerry Jones has actually kind of gotten a raw deal, okay? by which I mean, I was looking this up.

The Cowboys have the 11th best record in the NFL since 2000, right? So it kind of flies. Like, because they haven't won a Super Bowl, they haven't ended a conference championship. I know that's not much solace for you, Brian. They're the 11th best team. Yeah, thanks a lot, man. I feel great. You know, but, I mean, that puts you above all of your divisional rivals except the Eagles.

I mean, you know. And they've been really competitive and they have a lot of talent. I mean, people are talking about Micah Parsons. a lot of people could have drafted Michael Parsons. The Cowboys did. The Cowboys got Tony Romo. They got a Pro Bowl level quarterback for cheap. They got...

For Donald Scott. Yeah. They got Dak Prescott as a day three pick. So they've done some things right. And so, like, I get it because Jerry is not the dynamic figure that he looked to be. Like, it's actually just kind of shocking to see, like, what he looked like in the late 80s and early 90s. And you look at him today and you see him talk. And it's like, obviously not.

the same guy. But in terms of results, compared to every other body in the league, I mean, it's not like, you know, they're so, the performance is on the level. Like, it's at least median, right? So that's why I guess I would say about it. Like if they were truly bad, if they were Al Davis bad, like when Al Davis was near the end and it was like, man, they stink. Like, clearly he doesn't need to be in charge of this stuff anymore. That'd be one thing. But I don't know. Is that, Is that not a good answer for a person who grew up liking the cowboys and wanting them to be good? I think it's a fair defense of Jerry, but I just mean more broadly. I mean, look at Mike Brown, the owner of the Bengals and the way he's been, you know, handling the whole Shamar Stewart thing.

Yeah. I just wonder if there's a way. Look, you know, NFL owners are not, you know, making decisions about whether we should help Ukraine in its war against Russia. But on the other hand, they're not standing for re-election every four or six years either. there's no mechanism to do anything about this. So if you're a reporter on a beat, is there a way to investigate this question? Is there a way you can do it where you have to go and just again? And it feels like if you're one of these teams, this is a present part of your life.

You're just asking. And again, I'm not saying anything about anyone necessarily. It's just as tricky as it was with Biden because it's hard to find an answer to that question. that's thumbs up, thumbs down. But should we just be asking questions about these guys in that way? I think we should ask questions, but I also think we, I think that has to be a broader context, right? Like, I mean, I think it is how much of it is age in the gerontocracy, like our people

that are not qualified to be in that position anymore, and how much of it is just poor performance and the other reasons for it, right? And like, that's the kind of thing that's kind of hard to disqualification. entangle. You know what I mean? Yes. Because if the Cowboys won the Super Bowl next year, no one's going to, no one's going to ask that question. No one's going to be, oh, well, right? Yeah, exactly, exactly. It takes like a Biden debate performance of a football season to bring that to the four. Right. Yeah. I mean, I don't know how all Mark Davis is, right, at this point. But he was not always an elder statesman. They've been bad pretty much the whole time he's been in charge of that franchise.

Seven years old, Mark Davis, by the way. Yeah, seven years old. Yeah, man, man, time moves, doesn't it? So, yeah, so, like, again, like, was he bad? Is he bad now because he's getting older? Or is they bad because he's just a bad manager and an executive? I don't know. So, yeah, I guess the thing is, like, if you take everything in consideration, but, like, you know, I guess you separate those two questions.

Yeah, I'm kind of. You need to run a franchise to be the captain of a franchise and what we're seeing on the field, which may actually be two totally separate questions if it's sometimes related. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, without getting too political about it, I mean, like, you had one old guy who was president and we used to have a Department of Education and like the, you know, the economy was what of those and things cost what they did.

And there's something else going on now, right? So anyway, you know what I mean? Like, sometimes the results have to matter in the thing, too. So, completely agree. That is the press box. He's Joel Anderson. I'm Brian Curtis. Placin Magic by Kyle Williams.

Thank you, Kyle. It's football season, Joel, as I need to remind you. So excited. And on Monday, you and I are going to have another very special single topic podcast. I don't want to blow it. Not going to put it out there quite yet. That's going to be a first thing Monday morning, Eastern time. Shoemaker and I are going to take over on Tuesday.

And then Thursday, Joel, you and are going to be back with regular programming the big college football television preview among many other things because it's here. It's time. Games this weekend. We got game. We got zero. We got a game featuring ranked teams this weekend.

I don't know. A big, big 12 action. It's all right. Can't wait to see you, Joel, more Luke Warb takes about the media. Likewise, buddy.