The Press Box - The Democrats Are (Still) Looking for the Left’s Joe Rogan. Plus: Texas Barbecue Rankings!

Episode Date: May 29, 2025

Hello, media consumers! Bryan and Joel return on this Thursday edition of the podcast to discuss the Democrats’ deliberate investment in building a liberal infrastructure of influencers, podcasters, and new media (23:00). Then, they discuss the state of podcast interviews and whether or not listeners are making distinctions between the kinds of shows that are journalistic vs. focused on entertainment (39:00). Finally, they react to the release of the Texas Monthly BBQ Top 50 (47:00). Hosts: Bryan Curtis and Joel D. Anderson Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Folks, it's Jay Kyle Mann from The Ringer, and as always, basketball is so freaking, freaking good. It's so good, in fact, that the Ringer's NBA draft show is finally back just in time for a ramp up to June. We've got you covered every week as we take an in-depth look at who's got next for the NBA's future. We'll talk the rising and falling stocks of the best and the brightest prospects in the 2025 NBA draft class. From Cooper Flag to Dylan Harper, the BJ Edgecom, and more. tap in with me on the Ringer NBA draft show every Wednesday and make sure that you follow, subscribe, and hit us with those five-star ratings. Media consumers, welcome to press box. You've got Brian Curtis. You've got Joel Anderson. You've got producer Bobby Wagner. Sniff. Coming up on the podcast, the Democrats are still searching for a liberal Joe Rogan? We have an update. Plus the no rules world of podcast interviews and the best and most delicious food.

rankings in America. But first, let me take you to a place where no student visas are being revoked. Let's go to J-school. All are welcome at J-school, Brian. All are welcome. We take all-comers. We're not turning anybody away. It's a big tent. Yeah, a big tent. We got room for a lot of people here. Make sure you get in that application. We'll see about getting you down here. Got good food at this school, too. You know, we're going to talk about some good food later. this episode, actually. We are right around lunchtime. Not a good move, but that's fair. So, Brian, in Tuesday's episode, you and Dave brought up Anthony, is he the face of the league Edwards? And about that he had been fine for using with the NBA calls profane language during

an interview following Minnesota's 26 point loss to OKC in game one, right? And, And so for people that don't know what happened there, after he finished with 18 points in that game, which was the second lowest scoring total of the playoffs at the time, he said, I only took 13 fucking shots. And so those are the words that triggered a $50,000 fine, bringing his league leading bill for the season to $430,000. You might not be surprised to know that he skipped the next media availability. And then you guys said something to the effect that, man, the NBA. shouldn't be doing anything that will discourage him from talking to media or make him pause or clam up while talking to the media. And is that a fair representation of your take on this? It absolutely is. Yeah. Okay. And if someone who is a chronic cursor, I wholeheartedly agree.

But I would like to submit. You know what you're saying on press box? Oh, my God. I mean, if you took cursing away from me, I'll talk 25% less. But I'm going to submit that Anthony Edwards is not going to stop talking to me. media or to have second thoughts about talking to the media if you look back at Ants record on this matter. A little research. So the NBA has issued press releases for 31 fines that is levied against players and organizations this past season.

So presumably that's all there are to speak of. If they find somebody and didn't publicize it, I can't account for that. But they've released the fines that they've said that they've levied for the year. Of those 31, Brian, Anthony Edwards has seven. them, including two previous ones for the same offense of using profane language during a media interview. That means, of course, he was cursing on TV. The circumstances for the previous offense were after the T-Wolves 113 to 112 went over

the rockets on December 27th, and Ant was being interviewed after leaving Minnesota back from a 12-point deficit with three minutes in the game. He capped the rally with like the step-back three-pointer. It was a big deal. he's exuberant, right? Like he's dancing during the interview, all this stuff, and he kind of keeps poking at what he wants to say. Yeah, kind of like, like,

have you ever seen like a bad kid who's saying like the lower level curse words? And he's going to keep saying it until you make him stop it, right? Yes. He's crapping a lot. He's crapping a lot. Yeah, yeah. Or maybe dang or damn or something like that. And he's like, I got to go get it. Shit, you know.

Shit, I'm going for the win. And then finally, I don't do overtime. So fuck it. Okay. And so that little outburst cost him $100,000. The first time it happened to season was three weeks prior when he was feeling a lot less celebratory. The T. Wolf had just lost a Golden State. He had 27 points, but shot one to seven in the fourth quarter with two turnovers.

And this time, the media scrum heard him say, I just got to fucking play better. I got to find my teammates fucking terrible by me. That cost him, you know, relatively paltry sum of $25,000. This is so stupid. This is like the David Stern playbook from Beyond the Grave. We're going to find players for cursing. And the locker room, too, man. It's kind of felt like, eh, come on.

But anyway, so Ant wasn't the only player this season, though, to get fined for cursing dirt and interview this season. And this is what I think the rule is for, if I had to guess. This is why they have it in place. So walk with me for a second. So the other one was Dylan Brooks, Houston Rockets. the notorious bad guy, want to be villain, who earned his own $25,000 fine during an on-court post-game interview following a win over Boston. And so it was Dylan and Amin Thompson,

who as everybody knows here, my God, that's my favorite player right now. They're being interviewed together by Rocket Sylon reporter Vanessa Richardson. Thompson had just hit a game winner against the Celtics, and this is a huge win for this up-and-coming team. This is December. So nobody knows at this point that the Rockets are going to be the two-seat, that they're going to be whatever, like beating the Celtics in Boston is a huge deal. The interview starts with Dylan Brooks, and then Amin joins him at the mic. Dylan starts it off by saying, I knew that motherfucker was going in. This is on air, okay? All right. Amman laughs and says, that's my first game winner. I feel like Kobe. And it just, you know, my heart melts. I'm just like,

oh, you know, you can see little heart eyes, you know, flutter from my head or whatever. And they start laughing again, and Amin starts to walk off. And Dylan calls him back. Now remember, the mic is on. this is live TV, I appreciate you getting me my first win in this motherfucker, man. All right, that's kind of gratuitous. See, this is what I'm saying. I think this is why that rule is there. So you discourage the Dylan Brooks's. And unfortunately, it's tough to get the Anthony Edwards is if you got to tolerate the Dylan

Brooks's, right? And so it only costs Dylan Brooks $25,000 for that offense, by the way. But do you know why I know so much detail about that? particular scene, Brian. Please, tell me. It was posted on MBA on ESPN's YouTube channel. The NBA promoted that. I mean, it's right that you can go there and look it up.

So anyway, so I'm no prude. But I just, it's like the Dylan Brooks says, man, don't ruin it for us, man. Don't ruin the Anthony Edwards stuff because that's, I got to believe that like they would not find Anthony Edwards in general for the stuff that he's doing, which seems to be like a real spirit, you know, spirit of the. moment type thing and he's just, you know, hey, look, I'm either I'm exuberant or I'm sad about something, but like, I just, I don't want, I don't want Anthony to stop cursing. I don't think he's going to because it doesn't seem to be his makeup given how much money is paid to the NBA.

But it's, you know, seems to be something that, uh, to, we should be keeping tabs on going forward. He was back at the podium last night. Yeah. After they got closed out by the thunder. And it was so funny because all the reporters just wanted quotes for their stories about, about how good the thunder are. Yeah. How tough they're going to be to beat in the finals. But he was answering them very patiently. Mm-hmm.

About the tight defense, all that kind of stuff. He did not want to be there clearly, who would, but he was answering questions. He was in a good mood. And you're like, this is, this is great. What a treat as a reporter to get an athlete like this in that mood after a huge season-ending loss. Oh, he wasn't, I would say, like, surprised.

a good mood. And I think the thing is he kind of, he said it during one of those interviews. He's like, I'm 23. I'm going to get a lot of other chances at this. And then he looks over and he's like, Mike Coom, Mike Connolly Jr. sitting right there old ass and Mike Connolly. And he's like, I feel bad for Mike. Yeah. He's like, actually, he's not 23. Yeah, he's not young. He's not young like me. He's probably won't get to be here that often. But yeah, he was in a surprisingly good mood. I will say, though, that I thought that he, as those reporters were trying to get him to help them out for their previews, so the NBA finals, he was doing the, yeah, they're a really good team, yeah, they're well-coats, you know, that kind of thing. Like, he didn't go into a lot of detail. No, right. It was not overly generous. Right, right, right. Toward the thunder.

By the way, as long as we're handing out fines, how much should we be charging Kendrick Perkins for saying that Edwards, in order to be the face of the league, needs to be married with children? Is that worth 50,000? A hundred thousand? Kendrick, man. Is that the most Gonzo take we have heard yet? And there's been a lot of them during this postseason? I think the thing, and Van once said this on our show, it's not that he needs to be married. So Kendrick, I get what Kendrick is saying, but he's not saying what he really wants to say.

Bro, stop having babies and stop letting the business about, like, how you go about getting your babies and who you have. And we don't let that get into the media. But, like, we don't need him to be married to be. He was listing off other players who were married with children. I mean, and also, do we really want to get into that game? I was going to say. What advanced stat are we using for marital fidelity in any walk of life? I mean, look, man, we don't know those people and we don't know what sort of

what kind of situations they have is maybe the fairest thing to say right there. I have one other thing, and I just want to kind of shout it out as college football fans. Man, I know that this is like the easiest. It's not the easiest thing to do, but I like that the athletic is doing it anyway. They're doing their summer of list thing. Have you seen like ranking the 25 best college football teams of the 2000, ranking college football's top 25 games, top 25 coaches, best college football, top 25 players. I mean, like, I could read that stuff forever, Brian.

I find that to be absolutely cheap and shameless and, yes, I will engage. Exactly. I talked about this on the Dobity-Foxworth show last week. And I could not wait. Like, the segment probably would have gone an hour had they just let me go on. I was like, hey, look, by the way, I know 2003 Oklahoma did not win the national championship. But let me explain to you like why they're one of the 25 best teams. Like, I was totally prepared to do that.

So I see what you're doing, athletic. And look, I'm a little, you know, we're on to you, but also I'm going to read it from start to finish. I got some B-School for you before we jump into the topics of the day. We love some B-School. First up, happy birthday, my friend, a day late. Oh, yeah. You, not Bobby. Yeah, right.

Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you, man. Yeah, I'm getting up there, man. But thank you for, thank you very much for that. And you sent me a very note. Nice note yesterday, too. So I really appreciate a voice note as well. I was touched when you told me, because you and I are the same age, but you were at a

different place in terms of the youth of your children than I am. So I was touched when you told me that you and your wife, whose birthday was last week, were celebrating with lunch. Yeah, we're going to go get lunch on Friday. And for her birthday last week, we did 3.30 to 5. margaritas at a Mexican restaurant down the street. Oh my God. Such a compromised parent celebration. I love it so much. It feels like going to Cancun.

I mean, even if you get that hour and a half, it's kind of like, well, that's, we got out of the house together. That's not bad. Out of the house together alone. So, all right. That's number one. Happy birthday. By the way, little eBay package in the mail headed your way to Maryland.

Oh, my God. I'm excited. A little Yola Boka birthday, if you know what I mean. to just keep an eye out for that. Oh, man, I'm excited. Thank you, man. That's so cool. All right.

Number two, I don't know if you notice this, but during the first Trump administration, Carl Bernstein, the legendary Carl Bernstein had a Cal Ripkin Iron Man Street going, where every time Trump did anything, Bernstein would be pushed onto television to say, this is, quote, worse than Watergate. The man who had the gravitas to make that pronouncement was pushed out there.

So I was delighted when Alex Thompson and Jake Tapper were doing their book tour. They were on Pears Morgan show, which perhaps is the latter end of the book tour. Yeah. And Tapper made this pronouncement. Joe Biden is not Richard Nixon. The hiding in the cover up of his deterioration is not Watergate. I'm not entirely sure I agree, Jake, with that conclusion. I'm entirely sure.

The next line is, the next, the next line is, it is an entirely separate scandal. It is a scandal. Yes. It is, it is, it is without question. And maybe even worse than Watergate in some ways. Right. Maybe even worse than Watergate. Man.

I look, you know, I know you got to do book publicity, man. And would you want to be on this book tour? I know you wouldn't write this book. On Pierce Morgan Show particularly? Yeah. Would you want to have to do this? The Megan Kelly and Pierce Morgan parts, no. Yeah.

I mean, I guess it's your dream to write a book that people are talking about, even if they hate it. But having to, this is the term I say, thug through it while the world is falling apart. and having a you know everything that is happening and everybody being like i don't know if this is the guy is old and people he wanted to run for president again uh in spite of being old and maybe frail um i i don't know that i would want to be have any part of that you know it just doesn't seem like the kind of book tour i would dream of having you know on the other hand number one new york times bestseller the list just out number one so It's working.

I mean, that book tour, man, I mean, that's the thing. This is why you do it, right? I mean, you know, and even, you know, if people write about it and they say that it's overblown and, you know, out of step with the times, I mean, all that stuff still helps. It still serves to keep it out there, right? All right. Item number three for you. I've got a few more sliding doors metaphors. Ooh.

Okay. That we didn't get to on Monday's show. People are catching up. The aforementioned Jake Tapper admitted that he had. had never seen the movie sliding doors, despite being party to a sliding doors moment reference. And people have been sending in other books or movies that we might reference, but we do not actually engage with. The mysterious Dr. Z sends us Faustian bargain.

Yeah, I don't. Yeah. What is even, you know what? It's going to sound ignorant of me. What is even the original reference? I had to look that up myself. I mean, this is like folklore, but I guess, you know, Gerto or Marlowe, those would be the common volumes here. I'm going to say that I have not engaged with the original, though probably have used that term at least once in my life.

Sure. Listener Tom Bonin says, David Remnick of the New Yorker was on a podcast mentioning his favorite New Yorker writers of the past and brought up his love of A.J. Liebling, someone we love at this podcast. He referred to Liebling as, quote, a rabelaisian figure. Wow. Rabele is definitely an author that I pretended to read in college, was assigned to read but did not. So yes, that absolutely qualifies. My goodness, man. I mean, the classes you guys took in school, I guess this is just the, you know, we go to a tier three university, man.

You don't get to Rambola. Let me tell you something. There was a European novel class where I went like one for seven. Okay. It sounded good on paper. listeners Palmer Blair, Joe Shenagle and David Waterson give us Jumping the Shark. Well, I have watched the Jumping the Shark episode of Happy Days.

You've actually watched the whole episode. Yeah. Because I think I've seen the picture of Fonzie on the water skis, but I don't think I've actually watched the whole show. Okay, well, if you ask me if I'd seen all 22 minutes of that episode, that would be a stretch, but I know that I've seen the buildup to it and what happened after. Not that I can recall it in the moment, but I know that I was moved to find out about jumping the shark. Palmer Blair was suggesting that this might be a double where people have not only not seen the episode,

but weren't also aware of the website that the episode produced. We're now in the third generation jumping the shark references. Something to consider. You think people know about happy days at all? I don't know now, really. I feel like I was late for happy days. Yeah, man. I don't know.

Listener, Jacob Welman gives us a great one, the bucket list. Oh, man. That just moved into popular culture and we tore that shit up. You know what? It never even occurred to me that that was a reference to anything else. Not that you mention it. Yes, I have not and will not see the movie, the bucket list. And finally, I love this note from Aaron J. Galoni, who's been a long time listener to this podcast.

Aaron writes, hey, Brian, I'm loving the new bit about books no one has read as metaphors. But I think you guys have not yet identified the book metaphor that is the source for all this. I'm speaking, of course, of biblical. For what it's worth, I say this is a comparative religion scholar and priest. I'd love to get this mention on the pod so I get a button sign. Aaron or Father Aaron. Man, that is, that's something. Well, look, have you ever, there have been times in my life when I have said I was going to read the Bible sort of as a writer's project, right? Any writer that can make biblical references in their writing, I feel like they're just,

like Vincent Cunningham is somebody like that's a New Yorker, like can use biblical references. and I just like go, oh, man, that's amazing. Like, that is the kind of writing that is beyond my grasp. And I thought it was important to read the Bible so that I can have those references offhand, but then you got to read the Bible, you know what I mean? Shoemaker and I've talked before about how prodigal son is one of those phrases that is wildly misused. Yeah.

And I know this because David, actual preacher's son tells me it's wildly misused, but I feel I see that all the time. There are many prodigal sons in journalism. he's a great he's a very good source for that by the way Brian real quick before you move on did you know that the bucket list it was jack nicholus jack nicholson and and morgan freeman i just i didn't want to look that up to be reminded i knew it was like an old guys movie but then i thought i was getting it confused with that tim allen old guys movie that came out around the same time yeah they called wild hogs or something like that where they were oh yeah wildhog they had chris rock in it

or something too and yes and adam sandler is that right. Yeah. I just saw Morgan Freeman doing medication commercials last night during the Western Conference finals. And I'm like, can we get a power ranking of people whose last role was on a commercial for meds? Man. Famously, Wilford Brimley. Who else is on this list, Bobby? Well, I just wanted to quickly mention that Wild Hogs is Tim Allen, Martin Lawrence, and John Travolta. I believe you were thinking of grownups, the grownups series. That is the Adam Sandler series, where he just hangs out with his friends and goes to fucking Hawaii or whatever

on Netflix's dime. Wildhogs is a lot more like, I would say, conservative coded than grownups is. Well, I mean, you did say Tim Allen.

So when you said that, I was like, no one I hadn't caught it. Okay. It's not the worst thing that you can catch on TNT on a Tuesday night at 11 p.m. Now I'll tell you that much, Joel.

I would give it a shot. I don't mind a goofy, a goofy movie, a goofy, you know, guys go on a trip type movie. You know what I mean? I'm into that.

It will not surprise you to know that I have seen both the bucket list and wildhogs, though. So keep them coming, Brian. How good is bucket list? Is it a good movie? It's not very good. No. No, it's not very good. I think there's a movie that's similar to that with Queen Latifah in it about like, like, she's a patient.

She's caring for a patient who's going to die. She helps take them on those, like, you know, make a wish type trips and stuff like that. So grim. Yeah. Yeah, really sad. But it's a comedy. When you get to the medication commercial, I'm just like, you know what?

It's great to just, you can just retire. Like, it's just fine. You can do a walk off. We didn't talk Joe Namath. I mean, Joe Nathis into a medication commercial. So yeah, man, that's it.

All right. A couple headlines for you, Joel. All right. Much like the protagonists in a J.J. Abrams movie are searching for the McGuffin. Democrats are still. are still searching for the liberal Joe Rogan. I know this. Still.

There's a pair of stories in the New York Times. Teddy Schleifer, a veteran of this podcast, tells us that Democrats are trying to rally and or recruit the online troops, the influencers, if you will. He talks about a for-profit media company called And Media. and Joel stands for Achieve narrative dominance. That is way 90s R&B coded to me. When it's the word stood for SWV, sisters with voices.

I'm not going to make you guess your favorite SWV song. Oh, yeah. We'll work on that part right. Just one second. That's not even the worst acronym floating around in the liberal Joe Rogan search right now. There's a worse one? There's a worst one. Schleifers colleague over at the time Shane Goldmacher has a piece.

And he writes about Sam. Sam stands for speaking with American men. I knew that was going to be bad. I forgot. I read this story. And it's just, that's okay. Whatever, man. This is a democratic prospectus that talks about, quote, study.

That wants to, quote, study the syntax, language, and content that gains attention and virality in these spaces. can't wait to see where that goes more efforts from Schleifer Bullhorn Media which is trying to raise $35 million this year Channel Zero Project Echo

Double Tap Democracy Double Tap Democracy Is it just possible that if you have to name your company that it's just going to sound goofy until it does something and then you accepted you know like quibby You know what I mean? Yes or it will be a disaster

that has a funny name that too The Q-Cat comes to mind. It'll be page 250 of the, you know, 2028 election book. Can rich Democrats create liberal Joe Rogan? I mean, obviously not. Because if they could, they would have done it already.

Right. I mean, one thing about the first, I will say this. I think the headline there or like the fixation on Joe Rogan kind of obscures the story, right? Because they're not really talking about Joe Rogan. And they're just talking about influencers and other sort of people. So Kaisenat or whoever else, you know, the Theo Vonds, whatever. Because you can't, I mean, it goes without saying Joe Rogan is one of one.

Like that guy was on TV with Phil Hartman. He was on Fear Factor. And he kind of ended up in this place. Like, I don't believe that anybody pushed him into being the Joe Rogan that he is. Like he ended up that way. But no. I mean, so what I was thinking is like, even if they. could create something like that. Do you think voters and supporters would accept someone that,

like, music heads call this like an industry plant? So it's like, if they think that somebody created you and tried to make you famous, like Jack Harlow or Iggy Azalea or Ice Spice, then they're just sort of, they're dubious of you and your credentials and, like, how good you are at what you're actually doing. So if, like, listeners find out the Democratic Party paid to prop up Van Lathen or Bill Burr or somebody, like, would they necessarily believe them in the things if they say. It's a good question. I don't think they would believe

a Joe Rogan level figure. But my contention would be, I think you can create the second and third rung influencers in a lab. And I know this because I see clips of the conservative second and third rung influencers.

And dude, there's not a lot of Rush Limbaugh's in that group. Fair. You are looking into a camera and doing talking points and saying, Trump good, other guys bad. I mean, I just don't think there's a ton of talent except at the top, perhaps.

This is maybe, I don't know if this is going to be fair, and I'm sure people will critique me on this. Do you think conservative supporters, consumers of conservative media, are as cared about authenticity? Like, I think they care more about the ends, not the means, whereas I think a liberal or progressive media does care about the means by which you reach those ends, right? It's a, it's, that's another, that's another great point. I, I do agree in general. I do think there's going to be a lot of desperation come 2028, through three and a half more years of this,

that, you know, ends are going to be just as important as means. Right. Fair. There's going to be an acceptance of this or an acceptance of a little more of a sledgehammer approach. Like, I don't care, I don't care what they're saying. Just let's just get across the finish line. It's fine.

There's a lot of that in 2020. 20 with Biden. Like, hey, you know, just as long as we get across the finish line, get Trump out of the White House, we're okay with this. Fair point. Fair point. The other thing, though, that I'm sort of curious about here, Brian, is that what's the evidence that that's the reason Trump won? Like, I know that it's a, it could be a factor, right? But it just feels like if you're going to spend a whole shitload of money, like, there's a whole lot of things you could do, get better candidates, right?

You could work on voter suppression efforts. You could work to whatever the voter laws around the country that have been repealed or adjusted in the last decade or so you could work on that. You could moderate your stance on Israel, right? Because that certainly seems to have affected in Michigan, for instance. I mean, it's not like Democrats are always losing Michigan until recently. It feels like there's a lot of things they could do. And again, I'm not, this is just one avenue, but it just feels like a lot of attention and money are going into this. and it just seems like I'm not sure about the returns you're actually going to get out of that.

I agree. And completely when you look and particularly when you look at what happened in 2024. Yeah. The Democrats problem wasn't that they didn't have enough influencers closing their eyes and, you know, willing their candidate across the finish line. The problem was the Democratic Party had too many people who were doing that. Yeah. I mean, the whole, you know, Thompson Tapper thing about Biden, right? It flies in the face of this.

what would liberal Joe Rogan, if he had existed, what would he have been saying up until June when Biden tanked the debate? That's a great point. Like, I mean, you're not, there's not a person that is the wild card that Joe Rogan allegedly is is probably not necessarily just going to accept your talking points or whatever. Or look at that Joe Biden and be like, oh, yeah, that's cool. Like, go ahead, you know, run him, right? Or have to that debate performance.

Yeah, the person that is going to be that person is probably going to be a little bit more of a wild card than you'd think. Or if they were on message, the problem would be that they were on message. Yeah, right. Joe Biden wasn't going to win the election. So just wishing Joe Biden would doesn't make itself. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But I would say this.

Look, I do think it's sound, the whole program, like we've been kind of shitting on it. I do think it sounds reasonable, right? Like, I mean, I guess like you said, like you've seen the conservative media ecosystem. They should be trying to do something and get some people out there and get some people and, you know, create some media pipelines and create some influencers and stars and stuff. Like the double tap democracy program, which is working with like allegedly apolitical creators. Like, I get it. Like that doesn't, Project Bullhorn, it doesn't sound unreasonable. it's getting a lot of attention right now and maybe that's the thing.

We're just all fixated on that and the Joe Rogan of it. But, you know, maybe there is something to it. But it just for all the attention and the money that seems it's going toward it, it just doesn't seem like that's the sort of thing I'd be investing a lot of hope in. Can I ask you guys a clarifying question? If you were going to try to start a groundswell of organic support and media that supported your issues and party, why would you spend six months doing interviews about doing this project and immediately undercutting

the idea of it being any kind of organic? I mean, they're literally coming out and saying, like, we are consulting with, like, huge agencies about how to do this. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but this was not how the quote-unquote so-called manosphere came to be. It was not like a Republican Party talking point for six months after Biden won or six months after Obama won in 2012 or whatever, whenever you want to start that timeline.

I think that's a great point. But like, we should not know about this, right, Brian? Like, why do we know so much? Ideally not. If you're a Democrat, you know,

yeah. And again, I want to take away from Teddy Schleifer who's finding these things out in the world. I don't think these people are arriving at his door to say, please publicize our efforts to, you know, it's good to grow a podcast host in a lab.

Fair point. But they're not not going on, you know, cable news and saying we need a Joe Rogan of the left or they're not not tweeting about how we don't have enough organic support. It's like, guys, I have some news for what the word organic means here.

They should give Lynn Cheney a podcast. You sure that isn't already happening? Yes, I'm sorry. Maybe she's the now's where I sign off, guys. I'll see you later. I do want to say one thing about the efforts for the liberal Joe Rogan. It's worth being clear that what professional Democrats are doing is trying to replace us.

They are trying to further replace members of the mainstream media, who would be the ones interviewing candidates, talking about the issues, separating truth from fact. That was the Republican playbook in 2024. Donald Trump might sue 60 minutes over how they handled a Kamala Harris interview, but he wasn't going to go on 60 minutes. Now the left is trying to create the same thing. And you and I can talk about this in from various ways, but I just want to say,

even if you share the goal that the most important thing is electing a Democrat and not having J.D. Vance or another Trump acolyte in the White House in 2028, there are massive, massive downsides to replacing reporters and journalists with lefty podcasters and influencers. Oh, absolutely. They don't want to have hostile interviews.

I mean, that's the bottom line, right? They don't want to be in front of anybody who might cause them to have a gaffe. Yes. And even the bet, let's take the best possible example of this that exists right now, which I would say is probably Pod Save America. Oh, I thought you were going to say Shannon Sharp or something. Okay. No, no.

That was not what I was going to say. Okay. But let's say Pod Save America. Okay. Those guys are very, very good behind the mic. They're excellent political analysts and what they do. Every time I tune into that podcast, I enjoy the experience of listening to it. We found out from the Tapper Thompson excerpt in The New Yorker that three of those hosts were present at an influencer summit last April.

And they saw a clearly diminished Joe Biden and that fact alarm them. But they did not go to their podcast and say that right away. And John Lovett was on with John Stewart. follow me here on his podcast, that is Stewards, which is called The Weekly Show, and here he explained his thinking. I remember feeling I want to talk about this as a huge liability. I want to talk about this as something Joe Biden can overcome, but I'm not going to go so far as to say, I think Joe Biden must drop out.

He is too old to be president, A, because I didn't know exactly what was going on behind the scenes, but B, if Joe Biden is the candidate, I want him to fucking win because I care about the country. And I, and I can't, and I don't want to be somebody suddenly having the words we're saying taken out of context and all of a sudden part of the case against Joe Biden from the right. That's the problem in a nutshell. Like if you're, if you're, if you're filthiest to the Democratic Party, you're not necessarily serving your audience, right? And then people know that you're sort of bought. And what we're saying is we want more and more powerful versions of this. I mean, I suppose, but I mean, it's funny you played this clip now, Brian,

because isn't John Stewart, the Joe Rogan of the left? That was always my, you know, Shoemaker used to come on the pot and say that all the time. It's like there isn't a liberal Fox News quote unquote because there's all this other stuff. Yeah.

There's NPR. There's John Stewart. There's all these other things. But somehow people feel that in 2024, we got enough Theo Vons and enough guys on the, right enough manosphere pods that it tilted so that there wasn't there weren't places i guess were liberals to go still seems kind of a stretch to me but i mean you know the the colbert show still

going what is it colbert show is still a thing yes goes okay a man there's a statement on the yeah i mean it's kind of yeah i mean just kind of yeah he's i mean kind of still on he's i mean kind of still on okay i don't stay up that well i don't stay up that late with tv on unless it's NBA playoffs. But I do one other, one of the, so, because in this story, they talk about an ideathon that was here in Washington. But a horrible term. I mean, it's really bad. But George Soros, Lorraine Powell Jacobs, they're all here. And then there was another one in Austin. I want to go to these. I want, I want, I want to be invited to this. I want to hear, because I would love to, I think, and so obviously I know that they're trying to, theoretically, they're trying to do this

out of sight of media. They don't want prime guys. They want to be able to talk freely or whatever. But if anybody can ever get me into one of those things, I want to go to it because this sounds fascinating. I would love to know what is happening at the Ideathon. There was a report of a similar ideathon in the breaker newsletter the other day. This was one of those things where I'm with you because I'm always like, wait a second,

there's all these, there's all these, you know, conclaves that we're not being invited. to. Right. This one, this is from the newsletter, it was called Off the Record. Okay. And it was hosted by the information founder,

Jessica Lesson. Okay. Give you some of the people that were at this ideathon. Joe Conner, the New York Times, semaphores Ben Smith, Kevin Merida, Claire Hoart,

who I used to know at Vanity Fair. Peter Kafka. There's another media reporter. Noah Shackman, Bradstone from Businessweek. I'm like, what is going on? What are these secret meetings that are happening? We are so far from those email listservants, Brian.

We don't even have any idea, brother. I don't want to be on that, by the way. I don't want to be invited to that. Even if it's in Sun Valley or Aspen or wherever, I don't want to be at the secret meeting. No. I want to go to ask. But not for that.

Okay. Well, it would be nice to go walk into the lobby, get your little badge, and then just kind of disappear for the rest of the day. That's That is that. Uh, headline number two for you,

Joel, the no rules world of podcast interviews. Oh, man. Yeah. I've seen a lot of people in discussing the Bill Belichick CBS interview.

Mm-hmm. Call it a softball interview. Mm-hmm. Let me tell you something. In retrospect, that interview may look like Isaac Chottner grilling someone on the New Yorker's website. Oh,

my God. Oh, my gosh. Ha, ha, because one of Bill Belichick's next stops on his publicity tour was on the Pivot podcast with Ryan Clark. Well, according to an item from Mike Florio, Channing Crowder, who's one of the guys on the pivot podcast, came out and said that the interview was quote unquote choreographed

or partly choreographed by Belichick's girlfriend and media advisor, Jordan Hudson. She's got to make some sort of times, most influential people list this year. I mean, Jordan Hudson, man, she's really rocketed up those lists. I would, I mean, she, she is so, she is so at the center of everything right now. Anybody that actually gets a chance to get her to talk and say something,

that is an interview I would love to hear. But yes, go forward. And as Florian notes, like, if you got Belichick and her together, oh, man, that's kind of the ultimate get right now. That's, that's, that seems like a, Seth Wickersham and Don Van Nata special. or something. I feel like maybe they'll get that or something.

Ryan Clark, for his part, came out and said, no, no, no. The Belichick interview was not choreographed. But he tweeted this, and I will just let you draw your conclusions here about what his podcast is for because Florio had pointed out, hey, you know, this should be to serve viewers or listeners. Here's what Clark said.

As for serving the viewers, we will not do that at the expense of people who volunteer to give us their time. we have had various reasons for edits and exemptions from contractual agreements second thoughts or just not liking how it felt moving slimy in the name of clicks is not worth the integrity of our show okay um well i mean if you're of the thing is if you're a viewer or listener of the pivot don't you if you're a sophisticated person don't you kind of know that

Probably. Right. You're not getting, they're not going to, Bill Belichick is not going to go there and have them harp on his last three years as the Patriots head coach. Fair enough. But let me give you a side point. Yep. As all of these interviews that used to happen in print or on television move to podcast world. And hooray for that.

We are a podcast after all. But as all these move to podcast. podcast world, do we know what the rules of engagement are between the host and the interview subject? No. Do we have any idea? Because look, do we know, for instance, that guests on podcast don't have final cut approval of what interview goes out into the world?

Do we know that they're not allowed to take things out of interviews because maybe they had second thoughts after saying something? in a way they'd never be able to take it out of a traditional journalistic interview. I think there is a giant black hole right now in terms of the rules, and I suspect people are making up the rules as they go along. I guess the thing is, is that it depends on the pivot doesn't necessarily hold itself out as a journalistic endeavor, right? I think of it fundamentally as an entertainment, like it's entertainment, right?

And I'm going to listen to Ryan Clark and Channing Crowder and Fred Taylor, Fred Taylor, because I think they're going to have funny stories about playing at Mile High Stadium in 2007, right? Which is cool. And that is the service it serves. And, you know, but the thing is, though, I don't think a lot of people know how much dealmaking is done in journalism as it is anyway, right? Like, if you get the GQ man of the year interview with somebody, do you know how much negotiating is going on in the background to get somebody to do that sort of thing or to get did he talk to Vanity Fair several years ago at his house?

You know, do you know how much dealmaking has to, it takes to get that kind of thing to happen? So, I mean, I think the thing is, is a podcast listener, you're mostly coming. to be entertained, not necessarily informed, unless you're going for one of the podcasts that inform. And so I think you kind of got to expect that if you're going into the pivot. And if you don't, you're sort of naive. Totally agree about the long history of dealmaking at glossy magazines. Oh, yeah, I only named glossy magazines, didn't I? Right. Which subjects are off limits. We will talk about this and not that. The movie needs to be prominently featured, et cetera, et cetera. And that's happening everywhere, too. And that's happening everywhere, too, in all fairness,

right? But what I would say, Joel, is as the media landscape is changing, do you think people are making a distinction between this is a podcast hosted by a journalist where the interviews conducted one way? And this is a podcast hosted by guys and gals that I like that might be conducted in a completely different way. That is a fantastic question. I don't think so. And it goes back to what I would say about the Podsave guys. I think people are like, here are some political talkers and that I really enjoy talking to. and they might not make the distinction that that is not J-Mart or Politico. That is not Shane Goldmacher. That is not Teddy Schlefer.

These people are just working with completely different rule books or maybe no rulebook. I just worry that people just are not understanding that when they are pushing play on a podcast these days. I mean, I think that horse is way out of that bar, man. I think like the distinction between opinion and news, entertainment and news. We've, like, the lines have gotten blurred so much in the last 10 to 15 years that I feel like they're barely distinguishable. Like, I mean, I think you can, and I think the thing is, is if you asked Ryan Clark,

there's no way he would say he was a journalist. There's no way he would say he's doing anything that was like, he would, he wants to make news, but he doesn't want to perform journalism because that requires a lot of things that are not very fun and that make interviews a lot. more potentially hostile than they otherwise would be. And to me, that's totally fine, right? You don't have to be a journalist. This rule book is not one you have to abide by the way you and I would do an interview

with somebody. Yeah. But at the same time, I'm just worried that people actually don't know that that's the case. They do not make that distinction. We're definitely on board on that. I don't think people know or even know how to begin to make that distinction anymore, to be honest. And if you run an interview podcast, you depend on interviews. So if somebody comes to you with

a big time client, you're like, oh, my goodness, oh, these are the restrictions. These are, these are what the person is asking for me to do? Are you saying no to that? That year and a quarter run of Shannon Sharp, I mean, it wasn't, it didn't rest on the back of him asking very hard questions. I mean, he got Kat Williams, Kamala Harris, Monique, Monique, all these other people because they knew that to the extent that there was any tension, it was scripted, right? Like, there's not. And so, yeah, that's, if you're going to be that kind of a podcast, I mean, that's just the kind of stuff that you're going to have to do to get people on.

Otherwise, people, why would you agree to talk to Ryan Clark if he's going to put you on the wall? Totally. But the flip side of that I would say is that you come out of the pivot or you come out of Shannon Sharps podcast. This is where hard truce come out. Yeah. This is an unfiltered, unvarnished conversation.

unlike the stuff I read elsewhere. And I'm like, is it? Do you know that? Because I don't. No, what they mean by unfiltered and on varness is, hey, man, you know, Ed Reed actually played the second half of that game with a concussion, you know? Like, that's their version of that, right? But yeah.

Let's close out with some barbecue. Oh, man. Oh, God, I miss home so much. Do we want to talk about us having barbecue before we did have some barbecue recently, didn't we? We did have a barbecue summit of our own. We had a barbecue summit here in Maryland. But it was good. It was good. I snuck up there for Memorial Day festivities. That was amazing. Yeah, I'm glad. It was just fun to talk to you, but then also that there was this tray between us. Oh, man. And it was one tray. I don't think we even had plates. We didn't have plates. Mac and cheese. We had some ribs. We had, you know, so good.

Pineapple ribs. It was really good. We talked about this. because Texas Monthly just released their barbecue rankings. Texas Monthly, if you don't know, the venerable magazine of My Home State and Joel's Home State, they handle this the right way. This is an event in Texas. And part of the reason it's an event is because Texas Monthly only releases the barbecue rankings,

they say, every four years or so. You could do this every year and get all the engagement. But when you do it every four years, the rankings have a little more heft. Absolutely. It feels like you are really like, you have made some judgments. And in this case,

the magazine says that their correspondence visited 319 barbecue joints across the state. Oh, joints. Yeah, don't you love that word? That's telling you something. It's not a barbecue restaurant. It's a joint. You eat Tex-Mex at a restaurant.

You eat barbecue at a joint. Barbecue joint, absolutely. the guy who does all this at Texas Monthly is named Daniel Vaughn. He was an architect who was barbecue blogging on the side. And in 2013, the magazine had the intelligence, the taste to make Daniel Vaughn their barbecue editor, which is one of those things. It's a great stunt because of course it got them a piece in the New York Times. We know job changed journalism.

That gets you a piece in the Times. God forbid. they would not have logged that. But it turned out it was also a great idea because Daniel Vaughn is an excellent writer. And as far as I know, and I've checked his work from time to time, an excellent judge of barbecue.

It's a good guide. If you're driving, especially if you're the kind of person, and there was a time of my life when I felt like I was in my car on the highways and freeways of Texas quite a bit. And it's just like, oh, I'm in Abilene. I wouldn't if there's anything that's on that barbecue list.

You know, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a good guide for something like that. Number one on the list, the burnt bean company in Sigeen. You ever been to Sigeen? I have been to Sagan. I've been to Sagan a bunch of what in, in, in my old days. Man, this must be a new place because Sigeen, Sigeen did not have this place when I was going there 20 years ago. This is the other thing.

And it's like kind of a reverse power ranking of Texas cities. Because Dallas and Houston. represented and Austin's represented, but I mean, I'm like, where in the world is Woffor, Texas? I mean, what, Woffour friendship, man, they had a good little high school football team. I can't remember there. But yeah, it's San Juan, Port Nettches. I mean, there are some, we're getting down to it in this. Well, that's the thing.

It's like, how bad do you really want it? You know, how bad are you trying to get there? Has Viter ever had a barbecue join on this list? That's a great question. That's your Viders represented on here. Viter's ever been on the list. Yeah, well, can I tell you a story real quick? Please.

If it's a barbecue story, you know, I'm here for it. Well, it's not really a barbecue story, but it's a media story. Well, you know that like I had a cup of coffee with Texas Monthly before I came to Ringer. And do you know what they told me that I could have done if I had stayed, if I, if I'd joined that staff? Is it the barbecue rankings? I could have been a part of the barbecue rankings. Oh, my God. You know, I told you you made the right decision, but now I'm not woggling.

They are lovely, great people who I'm in love with. And that was a part of it as well. But yeah, man, it just seems like the most fun thing in the world to go to, well, maybe not Alito. I had Alito on my list. But, you know, Austin, Fort Worth, Sigeon. I mean, man, I'm trying to think. Port LaVocca. Have you ever been to Port LaVocca before?

Never been in my life. Really? Man. I would go. We may need to do a press box on the. road but instead of like Washington DC or LA it's you know Port Lavocan port Nettches and well you know what it is Lockhart you got to do Lockhart man or or Luling one of those I think we could get I think we get a hundred people in Luling

we could we could pack it we could pack a place in Luling for the city market are you so you but you made a good point when I was growing up Houston was not a good barbecue town like people did not go to Houston to get barbecue nobody thought it had good company barbecue which is sort of like the big place in time but nobody thought it was elite barbecue. No. And I think, you know, I've said this on the pod before, but barbecue to me was just like pizza when I was growing up.

Yeah. It was not a gourmet food. It was a food that you could go house, five chopped sandwiches when you were in high school and feel great and awful about yourself at the same time. Like the idea that you would stand in line for an hour to eat barbecue was not in my playbook growing up in Texas. Or like, and I'm just thinking about the place we went. to a Maryland, the sides, like the very ornate and intricate side dishes.

It was a close to all potato salad beans. Yeah, right. Like, you're not getting all these other options that you get now, you know, roasted Brussels with jalapinos and stuff like that. Like, that's just not, that wasn't the thing. And what's interesting about this and these rankings in particular is like, not only are we in this moment of foodism that makes rankings like this pop beyond the borders of Texas, but it's a very particular kind of Anthony Bourdain, Calvin Trillan,

Jane and Michael Stern foodism. Where the thing to go to, the place you want to be is not the French restaurant. It is that authentic barbecue joint out in a small town, out in the woods somewhere, run by people, you know, in greasy aprons. That is now the ultimate goal, not just in eating, but in food writing. So when you have rankings like this, people are, oh, my God, I want to go to that. Oh, yeah. I want that.

You want to go to a place where somebody large wearing an apron is emerging from a smokehouse with a rack, right? Like, that's the sort of image of ribs. Of ribs. You're a rack of ribs. Yes. That is what that is the image that they are trying to give you here when you do this sort of thing. And like, I'm all for it, man. Like I don't, I think that is.

Yeah. I'm happy that this is happening because I also think like a big part of this is like the tourism piece of it, right? Like I don't I don't know if you're like me like this, Brian, but I love going to small towns and just try and shit out, man, you know? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So this is fun. Yeah.

It's a lot of fun. What's your favorite small town barbecue place? Well, so number three on this list is a place called Goldies, which is technically in Fort Worth, but it was not a part of Fort Worth. I'd ever visited before Goldies came online. Like it's just kind of out in the country part of Fort Worth. And like my mom, who's lived there since the 60s, was like,

Benbrook or something? It's just, it's hard to describe, but you park in basically a dirt lot and then walk over and stand in line. And this was number one on the list four years ago. It's number three now. And whenever I go back for Thanksgiving, my wife and I leave the kids with grandma.

We take books and chairs because it is in our, plus thing. You go on Sunday morning. I think it's only open three days a week. Oh, man, of course. So this year, I'm going to FaceTime you from the line at Goldberg. Please do. Please do. I want to go to this. I should just come to Fort Worth with you. Might be tough at Thanksgiving. I'll be proud of your part. You're very welcome. But you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He is Joel Anderson. I'm Brian Curtis. Proxie Magic by Bobby Wagner. Joel, we got a big week on the press box next week.

Oh, we do, don't we? Yeah. We do. On Monday, Shoemaker and I are going to do our thing as normal. Yep. And then as a special treat, I'm going to have the sixth installment of our 25 or 25 series. I recorded an interview yesterday with Mark Kriegel. Oh, my God. One of my favorite writers of all time. Dude, just got this new book about Mike Tyson.

We got into the book, but we also just got into Mike Tyson as an 80s phenomenon. White Mike Tyson is one of the most beloved people in America, even during. the time of the Me Too movement. I mean, there's a lot of interesting complications there. He tried to explain all of this stuff. And I think you really, really dig that interview. Thursday, Joel, you and I are going to do our thing as normal on the podcast. And then we've got 25 for 25 number seven.

Pegged, as they say in journalism to the NBA finals, we are going to have Noah Eagle of NBC on this podcast. Noah Eagle is going to start calling NBA games next fall for NBC. he's going to be here to talk about the future of play-by-play. Oh, okay. All right. I'm into that, man. I'm a big fan of Noah Eagle. I can't wait to have him sitting down with us, man.

I wish I could have had the Mark Creagle one, too, man, because I want to ask him about his Joe Namath and Pete Marevich biographies. We might have to bring him on for a sequel. Next time. One of the most fascinating talkers. You will hear this next week. Joel cannot wait to see you on Thursday for more Luke Wormtakes about the meeting. Likewise, buddy.

See you then.