The Press Box - The Fall of Shannon Sharpe, the End of Sports and Late-Night TV, and the 2025 Media Diet With Bomani Jones

Episode Date: July 31, 2025

Hello, media consumers! Joel Anderson is joined by Bomani Jones to discuss a few media headlines, including ESPN's decision to part ways with Shannon Sharpe and the serious gambling allegations against Gilbert Arenas (4:09), before they look at the future (or lack thereof) of sports television, being a generalist vs. a specialist in 2025, the rise of "grifter content," and more (24:50). Finally, Joels closes the show with a lightning round of questions for Bomani (52:42). Host: Joel AndersonGuest: Bomani JonesProducer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, Hey, David's here from the Ringer Fantasy Football Show. We're coming to you multiple times per week to tell you who to draft, who not to draft. Honestly, that's kind of most of it. The Ringer Fantasy Football Show,

YouTube, Spotify, wherever get your podcast, The Ringer Fantasy Football Show. Hello, media consumers. Welcome to Press Box. You've got me, Joel Anderson, and producer Kyle Crichton on the ones and twos. Our fearless leader, Brian Curtis, is out this week and hopefully we'll return Monday.

Let's send him and his family with some good wishes and vibes, and that's all I'll say about that until he returns. But coming up on today's show, we've got a very special guest. If you follow sports media at all in the past couple decades or so, we're that old. We're really that old. If you say a couple of decades, that covers it. You're almost certainly familiar with my good friend, Bermani Jones.

Bommani is host of the thrice weekly podcast, the right time with Bumani Jones. And prior to that, man, Bumani was one of the very very. very few black men in American history to have his own late-night TV show when he hosted two seasons of Game Theory with Bumani Jones and HBO. But I figure most of our listeners are more familiar with his years at ESPN, where he was the co-host of Highly Questionable with Dan Lebertard, and then the lead host of High Noon with his co-host Pablo Torre, and he was also one of the foundational panelists on Around the Horn for a number of years. Some of you might know that Bumani occasionally invites me onto the right time, mostly don't.

to mock me for his adoring fans. And I try not to hold it against him. And my promise to him and you, dear listener, is to be better to him on here than he is to me on there. So I'm lying. How are you doing? I cannot believe that you have the audacity. Audacity.

Just all hate him. He started out calling me a hate it before. Yeah, because you started off talking about, oh, we don't have a special shirt for us. You out here wearing a Haynes shirt. I'm like, it's not Haynes, Joel. It's just white. But you started off hating and you're like, oh, well, you know, I'm just not used to seeing you slum it off the motherfucking rip.

I mean, you just, I mean, when I've never seen you wear a regular white t-shirt before. I'd expect a- Right. Well, it's not a regular white t-shirt. It's a t-shirt that's white, number one. And number two, let me make sure, before we get any misunderstanding, I was the co-hosted a high noon. With no, no lead, that's its own discussion for another day. But it was a co-hosting situation. We went no 70-30.

Wasn't talking about 60-40. It was 50-50, right? Just showing you a little humbleness off the top after I endured your unnecessary slings and arrows. I knew it was difficult for you to be humble. So, you know, I was going- No, it's actually very easy for me to be humble. The problem is when haters are around,

sometimes you got to do things to like adjust. Right, another example right there. That wouldn't even don't need for you to say that. Man, see, I was trying to give me your props, but see, and that's how you do me. I'm just going to push on through it because there's a lot going on in media news today. But Moni told me he came on. He's like, I got a hard out at 2 o'clock.

I don't know what he got to do, you know. I mean, what? I have my Spanish lesson at 2 o'clock, Joe. I'm better at myself. Oh, my bad. Okay. My bad, brother. Continuing education.

That's right. You take a Spanish of this country right now, huh? What's going to be the need for that? Because they're going to probably outlaw that pretty soon, too. Hey, never when you necessitas muddarse, you know.

Anybody that knows what that meant, you write in, please, because I haven't taken Spanish since, what, 19996, 1996, so it's been a while.

But I respect, I respect your self-improvement, brother. But anyway, let's see if we can get you aggregated today. We're going to touch on a few things in the media, and then we're going to talk about your esteemed careers an opinionist and what you think the future holds for that role of media going forward. But let's start with Shannon Sharp because yesterday news broke that Shannon won't be returning to ESPN

after settling a sex assault lawsuit earlier this month. And I think we all suspected it to be unlikely that he'd be able to return to the air given the allegations against him. But the other side of that is that Shannon had become a bona fide superstar in the past year. And a lot of that was tied to his viral interview of Kat Williams. And in many ways, he became one of the few household names in sports media. But evidently, it was all too much. And he's not going to be coming back. Here's a clip of him talking about it on the show, Nightcap, yesterday.

I really enjoyed my time at ESPN. It gave me an opportunity to bring my audience that saw me really just grow. They saw me, you know, Lakers in Five, and they saw me say all these funny, these analogies that my grandparents. gave me and I was able to bring that to ESPN so I'm very very grateful for that but I just wished of all things like I said hey they did what they felt they needed to do and I'm I'm at peace with that but I just wish guys I just wish this thing could have could have waited until Monday because I hate the fact that I'm overshadowing my brother the first two brothers in the

pro football Hall of Fame and this is is what the headline is going to be for the next couple of days so so but I have the kind of this theory that Shannon is sort of a pioneer in sports media and that like you know how lamar jackson was maybe one of the first NFL quarterbacks to not code switch there weren't a lot of people that talked like shannon on tv before he was on tv and i think he opened doors for like kendrick perkins and marcus spears so before i talk about like what happened in the fallout here i kind of feel like i like he was sort of the first of his kind to attain that sort of a platform you agree off the top of my head i'm inclined to say yes now i think that Marcus and like I think it is fairly transparent that ESPN sees

Kendrick Perkins as their Shannon Sharp right like I think that one's pretty clear I think Spears is playing a different game I think spears is just from Bat Root right but you know but like the the way that he goes about his presentation is not the same as the way they can and I like I like all three of them a lot on air um but I do so I think what I find interesting about the arc for Shannon is Shannon did all that time at CBS. And what he was not good at was the prompter. Like if you go back and watch,

if you're doing like a highlight read coming out to break, that's where things were tricky. Because people forget that there was a time where he was a fairly widely ridiculed figure for the way that he presented on television. But for people who don't do television, the teleprompter is a weird thing. Some people do it well.

Some people do not. And you can practice and you can improve at it, but it's kind of an amorphous skill that there's no guarantee. and it's not about your ability to read. It's not that simple. It's that this thing is moving. Like, as you're looking, this thing is moving and it's going,

and there might be something else. So if you're doing a teleprompter, along with whatever's going on, you know, going on the screen at the same time, it's a lot. It was not the best situation for him. There was a couple years where he was kind of out in the wilderness, and he was doing ESPN appearances,

but I don't know if the regime at the time was that interested in bringing him on for whatever reason. I would have him, like, 10 years ago, on my radio show. Like, hey, man, let me get you on, you know, where that was a thing. That was before he wound up making the move to Fox, which worked out fantastically.

I thought he was great on that show. Like, I really thought that was an entertaining show. But the part that I think was actually pioneering about him with that is not simply the fact that he, country is brown egg and was country, as said brown egg on television. For better or worse, what he pioneered was the era of athletes,

being able to talk generally, not just about their sports. Shannon had a wide range of sports knowledge. Like if baseball was more of a thing to talk about on television, Shannon Sharp, you get on TV and discuss baseball very, very well, very, fluidly. And that's where you start seeing now. You see it a bit on ESPN. Well, they'll take these out and you'll have somebody like Marcus Spears or

Ryan Clark, for example, talking about what's going on with the Lakers or whatever. If they happen to be the people that are on the show at a given time, Shannon doing that two, two and a half hour show with Skip Bayliss. It was not you're just only going to talk about football. He was making it through all the topics, which did ultimately lead, and I understand that they canceled their whole lineup. But you had shows on Fox that had athletes and no host, no like traditional presenter, just them talking about whatever it was.

So that is where I think when I start thinking about him as pioneer, it goes. Now, me, as a fairly country individual myself, I always appreciate somebody. who makes the decision that they're going to talk the way that they talk because you can understand what he talks. That's the only part that matters. Do you understand what he's saying? Okay, cool. You know, I give him all the credit in the world for pulling that part off. Do you think there's a future for him, even still in spite of all of this? Because I was wondering about that. I was like, man, I felt like we've talked a lot about like we're in sort of in a post-shame society. Like, it didn't feel like there's a lot that can sort of keep you

from getting back to where you were. Like, you know, absent a few things, it seems like most people are willing to forgive, he settled this case. Like, I feel like maybe he could, I mean, he's got his own platform and he'll do that. Obviously, he's not going to get this, you know, reported $100 million deal that was out in the ether a few months ago. But don't you think that, like, there's still space for him out there, given all this? Well, it depends on what you mean by space and where you think this space exists. Obviously, there's a space for him. He owns his own stuff, right? Like, there's a space for him on nightcap. There's a space for him on clubs. There's a space for him on Club Shay-Shay. Now, if your question is, is there a space for him on television?

Well, there's only really two places on television where he could be and both of them have let him go. Does first take work? I mean, I felt like Stephen A. has to do something then. Because, I mean, Shannon going on there was a big deal, right? Like, I mean, he doesn't have there all the time. But the question I have, and I don't have the answer for this is I don't know. Shannon talked in that clip that you played about how he was able to bring his audience to first take, which is interesting. I would be curious to know

how that's quantified. I'm not saying it's not true. I'm saying I don't know what the numbers are or how that goes, but do I think that first take need Shannon Sharp? No. I think they can find somebody that is a reasonable facsimile. I mean, first take didn't need skip Bayless.

So when I say a reasonable facsimile, I don't mean like find somebody who is like Shannon Sharp. but a person who fills a very similar role and who gets on well with Stephen A, because that's what it really come down to. A show like that is just about how well you get, the other person gets on with the star of the show. And so if they can find somebody that gets on,

like, you know, Chad Johnson has joked about how he can do the show now. You know, he's been trying to get on for the longest. Maybe he works. They sprinkle Cam Newton there. I don't think that works as well as it works with Shannon, for example. Really? Yeah, but I don't, I don't, I don't, think that show needs anybody other than Stephen A. Smith? Well, you know who would have,

I don't know. I have, and I have to admit, I have not seen all the segments. You know who probably would have been a good fill in Gilbert Arenas? So Gilbert's interesting to me on that, and we'll just keep it limited to this portion of it. Okay. And I have been a person in a very similar situation. So like as I watch it, you know, look, I've done Gilbert's show. I had Gilbert was all in gang theory when I, you know, when all this stuff was going on. So like I, I take an interest in Gilbert's

presentation and how it goes. When you have your own thing and you can do whatever you want on your own thing, it can be a little tricky going on somebody else's thing when it's very clearly their thing. So like, for example, coming on to this

show, you have me, here to do the things that I do, right? And you as a host are going to be inclined to set me up and put me in positions to do the thing that I do. Like, it's easier to be a guest than a host in most situations. Yes. However, when you go on to somebody else's thing and it's a really big established sort of thing that has a very clear star with a big personality, Gil is the Stephen A. Smith of his show. Shows don't hardly have room for two. Stephen A. Smith's. And so how do you figure out how to modulate what you do to fit in on somebody else's show? Like I tell the story all the time that the first few times I did first take

was Skip back when they would just be on for portions of the show. I was trying to figure out how to modulate it because it's not my show. So I can't go out here acting like it's my show. And I couldn't, you know, I couldn't figure out how to do it. And then the time I finally said, oh, well, I'm unleashed and let it go. And I let it go and they ain't ever called me again. You know what I mean? And so when I would see Gilbert on first take, I'm like, he's trying to figure out how to give the reason that he's here. I'm not seeing that. It's much more buttoned up.

It's much more professional, which is somewhat appropriate, given that it's not, it's this in an internet show, right? Right. But what made Shannon good was the fact that Shannon figured out exactly how to modulate it. Right, right. That's a great point. Well, so for the folks who don't know, Gilbert was arrested Wednesday on federal charge. of being part of a high-stakes illegal gambling ring that allegedly ran out of one of his homes in Southern California, Encino, if you're nosy. He's facing a federal indictment on account of conspiracy

to operate an illegal gambling business, one count of operating an illegal gambling business, and one count of making false statements to federal investigators. That sounds like a big deal. If convicted, Gil faces up to five years in prison on each charge. I was thinking about this with Gil and you're talking because I mean obviously there's a million million basketball podcast out there and you've sat on the couch with Gil I mean and I've told Bumani this off here I felt like Gilbert's podcast was one of the most hostile environments I've ever seen like it seems scary you know sitting there but the thing about Gilbert is that he's such a compelling voice um and the things that he says in that sort of room is what made

me seek him out. And I was wondering, I was like, do you, I don't think this actually hurts him. Like, don't, I kind of almost, well, he might go to prison. Okay. I'm looking at Bumani's face. If he don't go to prison, don't you, don't you think he can still record that show, assuming that he retains his sponsors. He's the kind of person who he's the one person I'm like, he can be facing federal charges and still be doing his show. This is my question. on that fact or the point that you just made. It's just a question. Underdog is a daily fantasy company,

if I'm not mistaken. And that is important because that means fantasy is treated as a game of skill, not a game of chance, which is to say it is technically speaking, not a gambling company. Okay. But I think for all intents and purposes, in the perceptions of people associated with it,

it is seen as a gambling company and the government, whether it is official or not, probably views it as such and it is my treats it as such. Can you be a face of a gambling company and tied up with the Israeli mob? That's the answer to your question

of whether or not he could survive. Does that look, the, if he does, does it go to prison thing, I think you are drastically understating the likelihood of severe consequences for these allegations. What do you think is going on there then? Because we talked about this a little offline, but like, he seems, I mean, we know Gilbert Arenas is a very serious person.

Okay, okay, okay, but like stop right there. He seems like Gilbert Arinas. I don't want to put words onto what that means because I don't know if that's fair. but he responded in the way that you would expect Gilbert to respond. Right. This is not terribly different. No, wait. I actually did not expect him to respond like that.

I don't know why. This is not terribly different than Gilbert 15 years ago when it looked like his career was in serious peril because of some of the most serious allegations we've ever heard of somebody dealing with within a locker room. And this is basically how he handled it then. I just assumed that Fed Charge is kind of humble. Like you would want to keep a low profile.

Okay. I hear you. But you were operating on a general presumption. rather than we're talking about Gilbert. Right? So all that's possible. And again, I'm putting no words of judgment on. I'm just saying nothing about Gilbert's.

It's no chill guilt. Nothing about that surprised me. What I remember about the Michael Vic trial was, that was a much bigger sentence than people typically get behind some dogfight. It's the lying to the feds that they may let some people slide for it. but people of his level, that's where they come get you for.

And so I don't, I do not think that the possibility of him going to jail is small, is what I'm saying. So that's why, like, any, like any hypothesizing about what happens to him, I think may wind up being a moot point. And it would be,

it would be really sad if that did happen because they put together something interesting over there. And it would read to all kinds of questions, as to how you wind up in the situation in the first place. But I don't think, you and I've talked about this in the past. I do not agree with you on the levels of how far we've gone on this post-shame thing. There are still marginal effects.

Now, it may not be a situation where, like, insert thing here happens, you're done forever. The truth is, that's very rarely been the case for anybody. But I think that these people who wind up in these big scandals, there's still things that happen. Like, for example, with Shannon, and I could be wrong, but at least to my eye, it doesn't seem like the quality of guest on Shea She is the same as it used to be. You're going to have more people who are like, hey, I don't know about this. You know? Well, without digging into that a little bit too much, I thought the thing that really hurt Shea is that the person involved in the allegations, really cuts into who I thought Shannon Sharp's audience was.

Shannon Sharp had a lot of black female listeners, man. Like he really, like those were people that really glommed under him, especially after the Cat Williams thing and he had on Monique and all these other people, people that, like, they are very familiar with. It's when the allegation is that, like, you were hauling at the 19-year-old white girl from your gym and doing race play, you know, them people might not

want to tune back in anymore. I think it was a very difficult situation where Shannon Sharp did a calculus that some of us at various points in our lives have done, which is, do I try to get out in front of this? Right?

And when he put out the statement that said that Tony Busby was planning to release a video that reinforced the worst stereotypes of black men, I don't know if I would have advised putting that in the statement. I don't think that did anything to make any... I think that made things much worse.

So I was listening to Marcellus Wiley, a clip on him the other day, and he said that he thought would really hurt Shannon was his initial response, publicizing her only fans account doing that sort of stuff, that that as much as anything is why he's not showing back up on ESPN. And I kind of thought, I thought it was a compelling argument. I was like, you know, because that was not. And even Stephen A. Smith, when he responded to it, he said, I don't know if I would have responded. I don't know if I would

have handled it in that way, if I would respond it that way. All right. So I don't, you know, I worked at ESPN for a very long time. And I don't know who's, I don't know who does what anymore. Right. So I don't have any insight into who the decision makes. here is on something like this. And I can't give you anything informed about what's going on there. I don't really know anything that's going on behind the scenes. What I know generally speaking is what they really don't like over there, surprises. And if they determine that you are a big old ball of surprises,

that's just not really how they play. You know what I mean? Like that's not that's I like I found for example anytime something happened that I thought could turn into a thing, you win a lot of points there by calling them first. Yeah. You know. Now in a time like this, generally speaking, if you have a powerful enough ally, then you can survive things. Like Jaila Rose got top for a DUI once and didn't tell anybody. It turned up like many weeks later that it happened.

If nobody knew about it until the end, he made it through that. He had the, you know, what I could only presume is he had the right people in charge at the time. With people in charge at the time were invested in him or had a great feeling about him or whatever. There are points that wish, if I had done that, that's not going to work. You know, depending on who I had in the ally structure at that point. You know, Shannon ain't been there long. So it's not like he was in a position to where he just had all these friends that would be around to save you at a time like this. What I would say is that you would probably think your ally would be Stephen A. Smith.

Yeah, but, but, and this is where he can only do but so much for you. Right. He's not actually management. Right. He made very clear to say that too when he was, when he was responding. Yeah, no, no. He's the thing, man. Generally speaking on stuff like that, a cat like that can get you a job.

Right. But that don't necessarily mean that person can, like, save your job. And then the next question becomes, and I'm speaking. generally here, because again, I don't talk to the people directly involved in this. Generally speaking, the same way I'm saying that that company does not like surprises, if you are Stephen A. Smith, you have to do the math on whether or not you are looking at a ball of surprises. Right. Yeah. And what are you willing to trade off of what you have in the name of a ball of surprise.

That's right. You know? And so even if that's your ally, what's you're going to do? I will say this, though, for Shannon Sharp right fast. And I want to, you know, this is something that I hope that he could feel assured of. I actually felt him very much where he said. The thing he hates is the idea that this could overshadow his brother going in the Hall of Fame this week.

Counterpoint. I had forgotten that that was this week and I was reminded by Shannon Sharper. Yeah, did you know the Hall of Fame game was this weekend? I had to answer. Yeah, I was like, oh, damn. So what you call it? Sterling, you know, I've been thinking Sterling should have been in the Hall of Fame for a long time. I just hadn't thought about it.

I know that because Shannon Sharp told me. Right. Don't feel too bad about yourself, brother. I mean, man, I think I'm pretty certain that Shannon's going to be the guy to give the speech to, by the way. So. Well, yeah. I hadn't thought about that. Yeah.

Yeah. Interesting. I'm going to start out broad here. Two weeks ago. FS1 canceled speak with Joy Taylor, Kishon Johnson, Paul Pierce, Breakfast Ball. Did you watch Breakfast Ball before? Craig Carton, Marks.

I watched it. I like Danny Parkes. Yeah, he's really good. The facility, Emmanuel Acho, your boy from UT, Chase Daniel, James Jones, and Lashon McCoy. Couldn't help yourself, could you? Just couldn't help yourself. Just say this, UT.

On FS1, all that's left are the coming barstool show, the herd, and first things first, with your friend Nick Wright. And I like Nick a lot. I'm a big fan of hands. Over at ESPN, there's Get Up, first take, NFL live, NBA today,

college football live and part of the interruption. There was an article on awful announcing that said, given how few shows there are now, they called it the end of sports television. Do you agree? Mm-hmm. Okay.

I mean, look, when I did high noon with Pablo, and the show aired from 28, through 2020. Obviously, the show by some metric was not good enough, right? The argument that I make always

about a television show is you got to make it undeniable to ever be safe. If somebody can deny you, there will be a reason to deny you at some point. It wasn't like we had god-awful numbers or anything like that. But in the end,

contracts come up. It wasn't good enough. You know, whatever, the metrics were we did not rate highly enough to say it. Okay. But what I also realized, and I've said this before, and I don't think I'm wrong about this, they didn't create a new show to replace us, right? The show was gone, and then they put, as I recall, Jalen and Jacoby in the time slot,

which was already then being produced. But you go look at how the day, you know, what is airing has changed. after that highly questionable went away. There was no show that was developed to replace highly questionable, at least not in that vein or in that format. Around the horn has gone away. No show was developed in this vein or format that we are discussing now. Nothing new was generated.

McAfee is on now, but McAfee is not an ESPN production. They licensed that show from him and they run it. They're not developing those shows. And Fox seemed to make a decision that rather than develop new, shows to replace the ones that they just created a year ago, they decided to get somebody else to go make the content. Now, I don't know what exactly the Barstool deal is going to be if it's just repurposing online content, like all la Maccafee, repurposing an online show and then putting it on. But what has definitely, well, okay, I think it's maybe a better way to put it.

What you're not going to see created, developed, whatever, in a, like in the vein of a television are going to be generalist programs, right? They might come up with something very specific. Yeah. But the general stuff that ran the network 10, 12 years ago or, you know, no, that's not happening anymore. I do agree that that's gone. Well, what do you think about?

Because I've, well, so I'm trying to figure out if I'm just fretting about that because that's the loss of job opportunities for a number of people, like, you know, the people that are front facing and the producers that are all behind the scenes. It's something that a lot of people aspire to. Like, I mean, you know, when we were getting started in this business, that was the kind of thing that you dreamed about having something, right? Yeah. But I also, if I really think about it, I wouldn't consume a lot of that content anyway.

But it felt like you did, though, didn't it? It did. It did. And I still saw clips online and stuff. So every nine again, I was seeing that stuff. But for me, I know what the numbers are on like what, I don't know what the numbers. numbers have been recently, but like in more salad-like days of those networks, I know how many people did not watch those shows.

Damn. Right? Like, I know what I got a big raise for. And it wasn't that many people watching the shows. It would be like sports is niche programming, right? And, but it feels to everybody like they watch all of these shows. Like, it doesn't feel when I walk on the street like I did a show that a couple hundred thousand people a day may have watched at a certain point. Maybe it's because it comes on every day,

right? But you become very recognizable and people feel like they see you way more than they actually do. So I think that you'd like describe a phenomenon that's very interesting in fueling this whole machine. But at the same time, I do, when young people ask me, I want to do what you did. I'm like, first of all, I don't know if that's possible. And I couldn't tell you how. Like, I don't understand the machinations that it would take for you to get to a place if you felt like that was a sort of thing that you were going to do. But it does, like, I felt like that wing of shows. And we're going to like separate me from any of them. Overwhelmingly, I found them to be informative and I found them to be largely done by interesting people with a pretty deep knowledge of the sports and things that they were talking about. And it was kind of a prerequisite, if nothing else,

with ESPN, for example, that there's like a baseline of knowledge and expertise that you had to be offering. That's not what McAfee's show does, for example. That's not the basis of it. And that's, I mean, for what it's worth, that's not the basis of what Dan Levittar does either. Right?

So I'm not saying this is any sort of judgment of Pat or his acumen or his show or anything else. But I do think that the idea that you need to have these people with certain measures of exercise, expertise to talk about this stuff, particularly if they're non-athletes, I think that's over, right? Even like the athlete pods that you watch are primarily,

them just kind of shooting the shit. Absolutely. You know, so maybe what's happened is the consumption pattern has changed, and people are not coming for knowledge anymore information that is coming for entertainment, and maybe they use the internet for the knowledge stuff. Well, I was wondering, I also kind of was wondering, I was like, I get a lot of that through podcasts now, right?

Like when I want to hear that sort of general, so I listen to your podcast, I listen to Knicks, you know, I listen, you know, that kind of stuff. And I'm just like, well, maybe, you know, once I've already got it through that medium, I really don't need to go to TV. Yeah, but let me ask you this. How many general podcasts are there that people like truly care about that were not done by figures who were previously established by television? Like it seems that and people had talked about this happening for a while and they were right that everything gets to be more focused now. So it feels like baseball is less relevant because baseball does not get talk on general platforms. But the people who care about baseball are going to baseball only stuff. And they're doing very, very well. Like baseball ratings on television are very high, for example, right?

Like people, you know, relatively speaking, I guess, but people still watch that stuff. But it's like if you don't watch baseball, you don't think nobody watch baseball. If you do watch baseball, you're like, wow, everybody I know watches baseball. Like, that's the world that you wind up in. So I think that people now go, that's why NFL live is going to be there. It's still going to survive. People are going to go to the particular things that are around particular sports. But like if first take goes away, it'll be like when the late show went away with Colbert.

They're not going to replace it with a late night show. You know, like that's like maybe that's the appropriate comparison. I might have got the last late night show. I was, see, I was just about to lead into that. because you're one of the few people in the world who've ever hosted a late night show. Yeah. And I think you're overqualified to talk about what happened there.

But is there a future where we simply just don't have late night shows anymore? Yeah, it's over. It's over. Dude, they're not replacing the highest rated late night show on network television. Right. So you don't buy that it's a political, you don't buy that it's just the political. No, two things can be true at once. Okay.

Right. You can politically acquiesce to Trump. and then replace the show. Right. Or replace the host. You had other ways that you could go about doing this. But when all those shows go, like there was a run of it. Right before a game, they let go a game theory, like Samantha B had a show.

That one went away. I think Sam J. show was running around the same time as mine did. That went away. None of those were replaced by late night shows. That paradigm, I mean, think about this. You know what else don't come on TV no more? Soap operas. You didn't notice it because you just don't watch them.

But they're basically gone. Like the younger the rest is still there. I think there may be one more. But overwhelmingly, what's the last thing? If you're ever at home flipping channels, which I still do from time to time, you don't come across a soap opera. You don't notice it, but they're gone. Man, these things happen.

Like, there was a time when the radio was full of dramas. Then one day they stopped doing that. Man. Damn, man. Well, so what is, what is replacing that then? If it's not on TV, like, what are people doing? A little bit of this. a little bit of that

looking at the computers looking at their phone does that scare you because it actually scares me because I'm thinking I'm first of all middle age I'm not about to change no careers you know what I mean

well not unless I have to and I'm like I'm a generalist I write about things in general I talk about things in general I'm not sure though that there are people you know what that audience is going to look like in 20 years Yeah, the generalist has always been a tricky seat to be in.

As someone who's been a generalist since day one, because I didn't understand that, right? I was like, I can do everything. Hey, buddy. Like, I'd have been better off in some ways. Like, look, I am who I am, and I'm good with who I am. But the future monetary value on television of being Mina Kimes is much higher. Meena Kimes got a, she got sporting. She got a thing that she's,

does, right? Like, it's really, it's really helpful to have a thing. Like, you could be Jackie Jordan Cursey, but you might want to be a beast at that long jump. You see what I'm saying? Like, like, like, it's helpful to have those things. So is it scary? Yes, to a degree. Like, so for me, for example, I have a podcast that was a radio show 10 years ago and has been a podcast for the last seven years. I have not looked at numbers in a very long. time, but I have no reason to think that it is not financially successful and that it does not do numbers, like actual pretty good numbers. When we were at ESPN and we left, we were the second best, or we had the second best numbers outside of Zach Lowe of ESPN original podcast when I was

there. Or keep in mind, by the way, before ESPN lit both the aisle. They did. Zach, I mean, Zach and you, the two highest podcasts they had. Yeah, right, yeah. They did. Right. And I'm not saying, I'm not saying that with any judgment about them, but whatever reason they did, that was the decisions they made, right? But I'm bringing that up to say, I did a show that people consumed and liked,

and we're all out here holding on to the audience that we have because more and more options are becoming available, but the day still only has 24 hours. That part has not changed, and there are no barriers to entry. There's a world

full of former athletes that people are willing to put a little bit of money behind, right? People stay on the social or whatever it is. And if your goal is to make a show or put out whatever your product is, that's something are really, or people, something that people are really into, how do you give people the opportunity to get really into it, right? So I read this book. It's called The Mood Machine. And it was about like the history of Spotify and really kind of how Spotify works.

And I think I learned. something for that that is translatable and it's the part that's scary, right? And I think this will apply to you absolutely because you're somebody, I think you feel like I do. Like, I'm here because people think I do good work. You know, that's entirely it. People think that I do good work and that is why I'm here. Okay. The mood machine makes the point that what Spotify just needs you to do is keep playing, right? They make a big part of their money from sleep podcasts.

Like, it's called the mood machine because people like, yo, I need a chill playlist. That's why you see all, like the word chill comes up a lot. I need a study playlist. Like, that's how people use Spotify in a way that I didn't realize.

I go to Spotify, because I use Spotify as the record store. They're used to Spotify as like this weirdo jukebox where you put in adjectives and then you ask them to get, give you back something, but a big one is sleep. Hmm. People want music to sleep to.

And so they, so if you get a song onto a sleep podcast, that's where you win. Because the sleep podcast just runs and runs and runs and plays, but nobody's actually listening to it. They don't care if you listen. They just care if you play. and the things that people are more likely to play are not the things that grab their attention, but the things that fade into the background

where you barely notice them. And those are the ones that run and run and run. And so if you get on one of those playlists that people don't actually listen to. So there's an incentive now for people to create content that people just play, but don't consume. So how do you cook up the formula for something that people just

plate, but don't really have that much of an event. That's why it scares me, right? It's not simply the idea of this stuff being general, but the fact that it is much more viable, I'll put it another way. Tell me what you think about this. With, and I'll use music as an example, but podcasts also fall into this.

So be prepared to do some transitioning on this. The way that people make their money off of Spotify, is by plays. How many times people play music, how often people play it, how long it plays, da-da-da. Of course,

the musicians don't make any money off of these plays, but still, right? That's how you come up with it. But when you buy an album, it is yours to do with whatever you please, right? You pick up a record.

You might have bought that because you liked one song and you played that one song over and over again. I got a record because I'm a vinyl dude. I got a record called, is it rolling Bob? And it is a bunch of reggae covers of Bob Dylan songs

and it's got a cover of some dudes smoking a joint on the front as it says that it's a collection of reggae Bob Dylan covers. I did not get it for the music. The music is actually good. I got it for the cover. But it's none of your fucking business why I paid, however it was much money that I paid for it. I used it for this reason.

So what they have done in a lot of ways is reduced the experience of, for lack of a better term right now, owning a piece of content, possessing a piece of content, holding a piece of content, having a piece of content to the very cynical metric of how often you actually use it, which is not really how all of this stuff goes, right? Like it doesn't have to be, like,

that is not the only measure of how much I care about this, is how much time I spend listening to it. But now we got a world where people are incentivized to do these three-hour podcasts, because YouTube incentivizes, it because of the how the way they the way that they nourish the algorithm because YouTube wants you to have something that'll play in the background that you don't pay attention to for three hours absolutely you see what I mean oh yeah

you know and so nobody comes up in this with a dream of I just want to make something that people play and don't think about you know what I mean nobody does that right no not at all but that's the game that's what it is as a Spotify employee got some deals going on Spotify premium. Oh, wow. I completely forgot about that. Yeah, as a Spotify, I am so sorry. Got some deals going on here. Wow. Wow. Wow. I love it. And, uh, yeah. Damn. I normally am I go to sleep with a podcast every night. Hey, I normally wouldn't do that to your home boy. Like, I might have to cut 20 minutes out the whole podcast. Damn. No, no. No, it's fine. But what, what are we supposed to do? Like, like, when, like, when people ask you

about the work that you've done that you're the most, most proud of. You're not telling them by no numbers. No, no. You know, you might tell them about an award or how it made you feel or some of the experiences that you had in it. But it's not about these numbers, right? It's kind of the same discussion we have about why are rat fans bragging to each other about sales. Right. Right. Who cares? Right. Who cares? Yeah, who cares what Stillmatic did. Right. That's what scares me is, does anybody care that this is good? Do you then feel pressure to be a grifter or to like and dabble in gender wars content or things like that.

Zero. Really? Zero. Because, you know, I'm surprised you have not done more of the like, I mean, you do do this on YouTube, right? But just like go live on Instagram and be like, yo, Joy Taylor was talking about, you know, such and such such. No interest whatsoever.

Really? No interest. A couple of things. Number one. the women I have dated have access to this stuff. You know what I mean? Like their friends

will know who I'm talking about or you know, whatever it is. Like, no, that's not, like, I don't, it's my life, but most of this stuff is shared. Like, I'm not, like, you might get me on something general that I'll talk about, you know, but no, no, no, not. Like, I remember once I did something, I was engaged in a pre-

previous life. And I did something in like 2010 about the idea of buying an engagement rate and the process and stuff like that. And I got a call from her. This was after we had broken up. And it was like, somebody told me that you talked about our engagement. And I didn't. But at the same time, I understood exactly where she was coming from. Right. You know, so like, I'd have no interest in talking in front of the world about me because talking about me is never actually going to be talking about me. That's number one. Number two, I think that people come to,

I think it is important for me to preserve my credibility with the people who listen to me. And part of preserving that credibility is in being discerning on the things that you talk about, right? Number three, I always say, I don't know if you've heard me say this before, but this is a big thing for me with my audience. The respect that I will always show my audience is,

I will never offer you an argument that I myself would not believe, which an extension of that is I will not offer you content that I myself would not consume. And I don't listen to that shit. You don't listen to gender stuff at all? I don't give a fuck about what these people think about dating and shit. What are you talking about? Like, I look and I see the people that have these shows talking about dating and gender,

like these athletes that got them. And I'm like, who the fuck ask for this? Who wants to know what you think about dating? It has an audience, man. I understand it has an audience, but I'm asking, who wants to know it from some of the, this was the question I had when Steve, Hardy started doing it, all of this across the board. No, no, no, no. If I wanted to host a morning radio show, I could have hosted a morning radio show a long time ago, right?

No, I have zero interest. And look, if you want to talk about that and have interesting things to say about it, God bless you. But I can't think of who the people are that have things to say about dating that I I care to hear about. Well, the only pushback that I would give here, and this is me on my Van Lathenship, I think sometimes, especially in this space, it's very rare that people get to hear from like sensible dudes, right? That's fair.

You know, and I think that there's a value sometimes in being a sensible man who doesn't hate women talking about dating, caring for women in public. Yeah. And if you want to talk about caring for women or valuing women, I'm sure there's a way that you can go about doing that. But I don't think that content serves any value. And I think that the value that you described there that would be served is a value that is served in response to the existence of even less valuable content.

But I can't think of anybody that's got out here talking about dating. And I've been like, damn, that's somebody I want to listen to. I'll also say this, much like you. I've dated people in the past. I don't want nobody being like, but. Yeah, and on top of that, man, this money I spend on this therapist. Like, people do this. This is a job for professionals.

Right, fair point, yeah. You know, and so, nah, like, you want to get a couple jokes off a little bit. Okay, cool. But I'm just, no, I believe that it, It is beneath both me and the majority of people who make this content. I think that you can do better. Paul Pierce, he's talking to you. So, I'll jump, I'll jump, I'll jump.

Well, maybe not. Is this, yeah, let's keep. Yeah, let's keep, okay. Did you see Medi Hassan on the Jubilee thing arguing against 20 people? I did not. Oh, that was the dude argument, the 20 Nazis? Yeah, the 20 Nazis. Couldn't be me.

I heard it was Nazis. I didn't know if Nazis were specific or it was a general term. I mean, a dude did not run from the idea that many called him a fascist. You would never do that. Would you ever do that? No. Really? No.

Why? What's the point? Okay. I'm asking that question sincerely. Like, I would love to know what he would say is his point for doing that. That's a great question. I mean, from what I can tell, he just wanted to debate people and highlight the hypocrisy and the inconsistencies in the argument and make

a strong case. Hold on, hold, hold, hold. You don't say the Nazis have, the world, I need to be the one to tell people that the Nazis have inconsistent. Wow. Those people don't line up to them

because they're like, yo, man, I think their arguments are correct. They line up behind them because they like the argument. The interesting thing about that to me is not the Medi Hassan of it all. It's the people that line up to be one of the 20. Yeah, but,

you know what, I will say this, for whatever it's worth, those guys are more open to dissenting ideas than my more left-leaning friends, right? Like, where I'm like, I refuse to be in a room with those people. They're like, hey, why not, baby? Why we can just talk about it? I mean, they do want to be liked, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, but also, I don't know. So, I mean, I actually do believe this before we get to the extremity of the right that I do

I do think they are far more willing to engage with people who don't agree with them. I think there's a lot to discuss about how it comes down to it. But I come away and I haven't seen this clip you're talking about. I don't know Medea San, so I don't want to be very careful that I'm not saying this specifically about him. But generally speaking, I think the desire to do things like that, that's ego play. And you want to show off to your friends and dunk on the people, you know, and all of those things or whatever.

But it doesn't, you've done nothing to advance the discourse or make the world a better place by doing it. Okay. That's fair. Because you got your Spanish lesson here in a little bit. I got to run through a few things. Would you ever, like, let's say Mark Lamont Hill gets his own show. He gets a spin-off.

He's going to get his own show on the Joe Button podcast network. And Joe Button calls you up and he's like, hey, man, we're looking for a smart brother to come on here and argue with Ish and ICE. No, not, not, not. No, no, no. No. The reason I'm asking this, people, is because I know the Bumani would say that,

but I wanted him to highlight. Because I think it's a very interesting. Okay. So hold on. Some of this has to do with where I am in my career. Okay. Okay. I have checked every box that I want to check, right?

I have hosted national radio shows. I have hosted national television shows. I have hosted a late-night television show on HBO. I am not interested personally where I am in being part of a great big old and group, right? Like Joe Button and friends. I personally don't have to do that now. And so I would go on, I would certainly go on his show as a guest, right?

Like if they invited me to come on and hang out for a day, yes, I don't want to be a regular in that place. Like I don't. And part of it, I think it's fair to say part of it is ego. But another part of it is what I learned about myself after doing high noon is that I personally was out of the co-host game. That was not how I wanted to do television anymore. Can you say more about that? That's not how I wanted to do television. anymore. Right.

I don't, I will occasionally do a panel on a cable, like I do Abby Phillips show from time to time, and I will do that occasionally. I don't like at this point being on panels where I'm fighting,

where you're fighting to get a word in, it's four or five different people. No, like if you want me to talk about whatever it is on your show and pop in, I would greatly prefer to do it by myself. I don't want to get started with a point and now I got somebody cutting me off.

Like for Button Show. This is not about the show in particular. This is about the dynamic that they have. You sitting in there with four or five people? No, man. That's just too hard. It's too difficult. Somebody popping up.

You can't go halfway. Somebody got a finish. Ain't no telling who got ADHD in that motherfucker, man. You know, they can't, you know, can't remember. You know, all this jumps up. And then you got the one guy that's got the Trump card at all times because it's his show and then jumping in. That is not how I would like to, to, to. be a part of something. I think that it is best for me when I have room to stretch out

and to make points that may go here, may go there. I'm always laying the plane, but I need space in order to do that. I'm going to run you through a lightning round. Welcome to the Lightning Round, a Jill Anderson special. So to that point, you've already said that you don't want to share like that again. Don't want to share the ball. You want to shoot. Dead or alive, who would be the best possible co-host for you? In what's the form?

Like in what format? Whatever, whatever show, you know, whatever show you want to do. If it's a podcast, I think the answer to that, if you know me is obvious, and that is Dominique Foxworth. I think if we were talking about sports television,

I think Nick and I could do something very good at this point. I think Nick right now was the best person working in sports television. In this moment, I don't even think it's close. And I think he's the one person that if you said, hey, we're going to get you all with a guy to do a show every day. He's probably the one person where I would be like, yeah, let's do that. Do you find yourself losing arguments to Nick in, in private? I don't do a lot of arguing with people. You know that. Yeah, that's not fair point. Fair point. When's the last time you were like, I can't believe I'm in this room.

Depends on which way we are discussing. Okay. You know, you're... Like, I can't believe I've got this far? Yeah, I can't believe I got this far. I can't believe I'm here. Okay, let me think here. The last time it felt like that.

Oh, wow. Okay. I'm going to leave out the names. But one year at the Super Bowl, and I smoked a joint with the NFL Hall of Famer, an all proer, a two-tiles Super Bowl champion, and one of my favorite NBA champions of all time. Wow.

That was fun. And what was hilarious about it is that it was a very rich people move because the NFL Hall of Famer told everybody there wouldn't be no passing. Everybody got a hat they own. I had never heard of anybody imposing a B-Y-O-B cipher, but there we were. Where was the Super Bowl?

Vegas. Vegas? That's funny. That's what. Just so we're clear, we were obeying the law. What made you feel comfortable telling people that you smoke weed in public now? Because I'm still, I would, not, I'm not admitting to doing it or not, you know? But I'm just saying. I don't think anybody cares anymore. number one

number two I'm not breaking the law like it is very legal in my own municipality right like this is there's nothing edgy in that discussion the thing is I stopped drinking 20 years ago

right people would get all and be comfortable talking about all the times they got super drunk which I think is far more problematic but yeah I'm just kind of at the point now where I'm like okay pretty sure my parents know what time it is That's the, you know, that's the last level of concern here.

What podcast would you like to go on that you haven't been asked to be on yet? Hmm. You know what? I don't know if I would want to, but I have, no, I'm not going to say that. I'll tell you that one after the show. Mark Marion canceled his podcast, huh? That's over. That would have been an accomplishment, the simple fact that you asked me to do it.

Yeah. That would probably have been the one. So, you know, RIP, the WTF, but I'll let that. You're world traveler now. Yes. You were. I mean, I don't know. The world has changed a little bit.

I don't know about making sure you can get back into the country. Where do you want to go that you haven't been? Where do I want to go that I haven't been? Off the top of my head, I am going to say South Africa. Wow. I'm sorry. You haven't been to South Africa, actually. No, man, I haven't those super long,

it's, the thing is about them Southern Hemisphere destinations is when I have time to go there, it ain't warm. Right, right, right. Okay, okay. Where would you recommend someone who hasn't traveled a lot go? Like, if they, this, you say, you've got one trip.

You got to take, um, generic, you know, it doesn't matter, beach, you know, mountain, whatever. Yeah. So if, if I want to make it easy for you, and you can go somewhere that, like, You're not just going to be stuck at a resort necessarily,

but there are going to be things around for you to do, but it's still going to be easy and it's fairly English-friendly. Costa Rica is the one that jumps up there. It's really, really, really hard to lose with Costa Rica, right? You can go to, like, Plow Del Carmen and places like that, and it's just super easy just to say you went out the country of the Bahamas, right, where Bahamas is basically like flying to Miami. But Costa Rica, Costa Rica, keep it simple,

but also let you feel like you did something for real. Best strip club in America. I mean, historically, the answer has been Magic City. Like, that is, that is historically being it. It is, I have not been to Magic City in a very, very long time. But I remember that time, I spent the last $35 to my name in Magic City, and I never wanted it back. $35, so you didn't park then, huh? No, I, it.

Because the parking will get you. I think the parking and then after I paid parking and after I paid to get in, I had $35 left. And I mean, it was the year 2002, just to be clear people. But I made it work. What's the next thing for you, profession? I have a documentary idea that I would like to get on the road. And I have a book idea that I would like to get on the road.

And I think I am more in the place of taking the steps on the documentary idea, trying to get that off the ground. But what I need to do is just write out proposals. And that's the hard part for me. like if you were to get in the room with me I mean you've heard me talk about these things that's why you're out here asking these invasive-ass questions I can

I think Joe Joe a walking tape recorder I did not ask you the questions that I really wanted to have okay let me finish then finish yeah so the hard part for me is putting them in proposal form I know how to talk them out I don't like I have to once I have to write it down it starts getting real and I think some like mental block stuff starts coming in that was a Bumani Jones

my friend, somebody who I hope I treated better than he treats me on his. See, it's so funny, man. When you come on my show, people are like, oh, Joel is like your friend of me. And I'm like, no, Joel's my friend. And then I realized, no, they smell your hate from miles away. I have so much respect. But Mani's such a good friend. And I can't wait until he meets my kids.

They're going to love me. They're going to be like, wow, you're so much nicer than this hater that pays the bills over here. No, no, no, no. I'm probably too nice. My son would be beating my ass, man. Well, I'm going to say, I think the problem with the little homie for what I can tell is, he think we all haters. Yeah, I think, you know what I'm saying? He think we all standing in his way.

He think we all standing in his way. I'm going to be a little mama's favorite person in the world, just you watch. Come here and see you. I will, man. I will. I will. I got to make it down there, but I'm going to definitely get down there to come, come let him know how Uncle Bo get down.

You know what I'm saying? All right. That was the great Bumani Jones. I'm Joel Anderson, production magic by Kyle Crichton. I'll be back next Thursday, and Brian and David will return Monday with more lukewarm takes about the media. Holla!