The Press Box - The Joe and Mika Crisis, an ‘Around the Horn’ Funeral, and Watching College Football in 2024

Episode Date: November 22, 2024

Hello, media consumers. Bryan and Joel close out the week with a new opening titled Joel’s Thoughts, where Joel recaps discussions from Monday’s show, including a 'Press Box' Media Person of the Year award (1:05) and Joe and Mika’s explanation for their trip to meet Donald Trump (5:00). Then they discuss the end of ESPN’s 'Around the Horn' (16:17), sounds that may surprise you from Gus Johnson’s touchdown calls in the Ohio State–Purdue game (35:59), and what’s going on with college football on television (37:43) Hosts: Bryan Curtis and Joel Anderson Producer: Brian H. Waters Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's happening? It's Todd McShay and I'm back with a new home and a new show at the Ringer and Spotify. The McShay Show. It's a video and audio podcast coming to you year round with all my NFL draft information, big boards, mock drafts and player movement. Plus, I'll be chatting with some of my best friends in football, including some of your favorite football analysts. During the week, we'll have episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays that'll include discussions about my player rankings, who's rising, who's falling, and who your NFL team should be keeping an eye on. Plus, we'll be reacting each week to the college football playoff polls and giving you previews and picks for each Saturday slate. In addition, I'll have episodes on Saturday nights

with my immediate reaction to the full day in college football every week. So if you love the college game, the NFL, the draft, or all of it like me, make sure to like, follow, subscribe, and get ready for the McShay show on the ringer, Spotify, and wherever you watch or listen to Podcasts. Media consumers, welcome to press box, Brian Curtis, Joel Anderson,

and producer Brian Waters here. We're going to start with something a little different. Joel, every time I'm putting together the show, I'm like, wait a second. I bet Joel has thoughts

on stuff that happened either a week ago, something that was said on Monday show between me and David, and maybe we should just start the show, the Thursday show, with you, running those thoughts down. What do you think about that?

Okay, that's great. Because there were two things that I wanted to address, right? One, I guess the easiest one is you guys said that we were going to talk about naming our own media person of the year, right? And you guys had some ideas and, you know, I could roll with that. But I'd like to make a suggestion. And I think we could probably get him to come to our press box ceremony. Shannon Sharp. who had a bigger year in media than Shannon Sharp? I mean, first of all, I mean, he lived long enough to see his new nemesis Skip like have to shuffle off out of the business.

So there's that one thing. But who made more waves with their media property than Shannon Sharp, man? Don't you think we could get him? I think we could probably get him. And I think your thought is right on. Yeah. Because if we were measuring like box office. on podcasts like they do with the movies,

Shannon Sharp and Monique is like Titanic. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it is. I mean, that's just like, that's a number that no one else will approach ever, except for the next Shannon Sharp podcast that actually gets a total like that. I have never,

I cannot remember a interview that wasn't based on the news cycle that generated that much attention. Like, I mean, just, you know, obviously there'll be. times when Hillary Clinton went on a podcast or Kamala Harris will go on a podcast or, you know,

Trump will go on a podcast. And like, that's bound to be blockbuster. But Kat Williams, like, Cat Williams was, I mean, I guess he had a little Netflix, you know, show, but it's not like anybody was checking for Cat Williams in 2024. And he just totally, he totally took over the internet for like a week. So, yeah, man. Absolutely. And it's, it's one of those things, too, where like, he's he's on first take. So he's also got his, he's doing his own thing. He owns his own thing. But then he's also got a foot in the other world. Yeah, man. I mean, actually, and I'm sure we'll talk about ESPN later. I'm actually kind of shocked too that you can just like, you can have your own business, your own side business at ESPN. Like ESPN has you. And then you have your own side

media business. It's kind of interesting. That all developed after we left ESPN. Right, right, right. I mean, they come a long way from when I'd have to get permission to go on random podcast here. You can build your own studio and have your own show and talk about things you talk about ESPN on your show. That's the brave new world there. And my other thought was that, you know, you know, David talked about, you're not going to talk about cable news anymore.

And I don't, I mean, look, man, I don't want to tell people what to do. I'm new here on this show. You know, I can't, I'm outnumbered here, right? I'm outvoted. It's two to one. But I just think before we make that sort of a hasty decision, we should sort of wait on the news cycle a little bit because when you did that,

so are we allowed to talk about Joe and Mika or not anymore? We're totally allowed because this is like the worst week ever to make this declaration. I was going to say, I mean, we need to do a recount or something like that. Stop the steal. Stop the steal. Yeah, yeah. Because I mean, I think we,

do need to talk about this Joe and Mika thing, don't we? We do. So Monday, as I was pontificating and having this extremely hot take about media podcast content, they were announcing to the world that they had made a trip to Mar-a-Lago to meet with Donald Trump. Their nemesis, the Donald Trump. Here are a few seconds of Joe and Mika describing the meeting. In this meeting, President Trump was tearful. He was upbeat. He seemed interested in finding common ground with Democrats on some of the most divisive issues. And for those asking why we would go speak to the president-elect during such fraught times, especially between us, I guess I would ask

back, why wouldn't we? Why wouldn't we, Joel? So, I mean, I'm going to start off with why they kind of have to do it. I mean, we can't pretend that the guy's not president will have decided that this is going to be the leader that we put on the world stage, right? So as much as we don't want, well, as much as many people do not want him to be president, it is a fact. He is president. When the president summons you someplace, you usually have to kind of go, right? Like, I mean, I don't know, like, I know that there are new norms around all this stuff now, but you kind of have to do that. And I also understand this, and this is the coward in me talking here. not as a journalist, but as American citizen.

If the president hates you and you're a private American citizen and he doesn't seem to be restrained by any particular law, any, you know, no governmental body, like, I think you kind of do need to make sure, hey, man, are we cool? Right? Because if not, I will move to Canada or I will move to Spain. But if, but if, but can we come to an understanding? I kind of get that. Wouldn't you? Like, I mean, like, Brian, that you're Joe Scarborough, right? Okay. All right. I'm trying to imagine it. You're Joe Scarborough. I went to the University of Alabama. You're from a Republican. Now I'm on MSNBC. Okay, keep going. You're married to meco. Yeah. Uh-huh. I'm married to meiko. Okay. Yeah. All right. I'm getting into it. Let's go.

All right. You've been going at this dude for the last few years. And, you know, he's a threat to democracy. He's a terrible human. Like, he's not qualified for all this. And then he's, then he all of a sudden becomes president. He says, hey, man. And you've been saying all this about him for the last few years. Would you not, I mean, would you not want to make sure that are we cool? I just want to make sure. Or like, how would you handle this? In this case, are we cool means, you know, are you really going to. investigate my parent company for treason? Yes. As you threatened on true social, are you, as Steve Bannon has nodded at a few times on his various media arms, going to sick your justice department on me and my fellow MSNBC hosts? Yeah. That actually happened. And that's what's interesting here, right?

Because there's a whole, you know, are you trying to normalize relationships, relations with Donald Trump? Are you trying to normalize Trump? Are you trying to do some weird post-election pivot? after making anti-Trumpism your defining brand for years and years? Or, and Brian Stelter and Dylan Byers have reported on this, are you just worried that something bad is going to happen to you? And it really seems to be number two, doesn't it? I mean, the guy admires Putin, and we can just talk about, like, the number of people in Russia

who ran a file of Putin who fall out of windows. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, I don't, like, the idea that that can't happen here is just sort of foolhardy. So I'm sort of getting out of this Joe Scarborough cosplay now that we're talking about actual defenestrations. Not the media kind, but I'm going out the window for real. Right. Well, I'm just saying. But so, like, I mean, I think, and the thing is people talk about normalizing again, it's been normalized.

He's pre he's been elected president twice. The ultimate normalization, you have been elected president of the United States again. I've been elected by millions of people to be president. I'm normalized. But I do think this, though, about Joe and Mika and walk with me on this, they occupy this really perilous place in the media ecosystem. And I think there was some story coming out showing that they have like hemorrhaging viewers now.

Yes. Right. Because people tuned in to see them hate on Trump. And now they're like, well, why wouldn't we? Well, I mean, like, which is it, brother? You know, you can't have it both ways. It's like you stuck your hole in the ground. You stuck a flag in the ground.

ground on this, we tuned in for this. Why would we tune in for something else with normalized relations with the guy that you told us as terrible? Like, what do you, like, I'm watching TV, not only to be entertained, but particularly with politics, like, at least at this point, you're looking for people that sort of reflect your values, at least somewhat, right? And you told me your values with this, and then all of a sudden it changed overnight because you were worried. That isn't, I mean, good for you as a. a person, I hope you're okay, but I don't think I can watch your show anymore. So as a branding exercise, it makes absolutely no sense, if that's what it is.

I mean, it's very similar to the Jeff Bezos. Let's not print the Kamala Harris endorsement strategy for the Washington Post. This idea that there's this whole bunch of conservative viewers or readers of the newspaper, they're going to be like, I will give your network and paper a second chance now because you have made a responsible decision as I see it. No, they're not. They've been told in their own silos that you stink and that you're awful and that you are, they are never going to come back and watch you. So as a branding exercise, it's insane.

It makes absolutely no sense. That's why it just to me has to be a personal fear. That's the only grounds. And by the way, Dylan Byers and Puck, I don't know how this is way deep in the weeds, but I don't know if you're familiar with this. When Joe Scarborough was in the house, he had an intern who died. and the death of that intern, which happened for totally natural normal causes,

has been this conservative conspiracy theory for a very, very long time. Yes, and referred to even by Donald Trump at various times. And so apparently, and this is Dylan's reporting in Puck, they were worried that if Matt Gates were to become attorney general, then he would maybe start thinking about having hearings about this or bring this up in a way.

Again, that would not be like a legal threat, or legal jeopardy to them, but would just be a nightmare on many levels. Well, I mean, look, man, I mean, the reality of this situation is they do have to look out for themselves. And so, yeah, man, I mean, that makes, there's a lot of ways in which the president who has a majority in Congress who, I mean, the Supreme Court, they're not going to restrain him. He's got a lot of lower level coast. He can make life very, very difficult for you if he wants to.

And that is sort of the reality of the situation. but like, I mean, for an overworked Twitter joke, I mean, you remember when there was a thing like, today is the day that Trump became president? And that was this kind of thing. They were like, oh, well, I mean, he was very upbeat and willing to talk with us about working with Democrats. Oh, good shit. Okay. Good luck. I'm sure he is. Yeah. That was a, but I thought we retired the whole, it's a new Trump. Right. Right. Yeah. It's a new Trump of it. Like, he's going to be a different kind of like, no, no, we, we know that's not going to have. He's specifically campaigned on not being the new Trump. Look, he just nominated Matt Gates for AG, man.

Matt Gates is not going to be AG, but like, that's, he's not going to be a new guy. He might be a worse version of the old guy. So, yeah. So if your point was, it may have been a little too quick to declare a fast on talking about cable news. We got Joe and Mika. We got NBC Universal spinning off MSNBC and all their cable assets into a new company, which is a big deal. We've got Pete Higgsith, the Fox and Friends, nominated me to be.

defense secretary, uh, dealing with his own police report in terms of, uh, getting confirmed. So it may have been a tad too hasty. I just look, you have your show on Monday. I'm not here all the time. I just say, maybe in the future before you all decide, you know, but just, just wrote me in. Just bring me in, you know, we can have and we can just vote. You know, it's three. Brian, but you know what? The man behind the mic, Brian Waters, he should get the vote to just in case, you know. Absolutely. And I don't, I don't see this as like two to one, two to two to two. I see this is everybody has veto power.

Oh, okay. It's an equal. Like if you're just like, I'm out. But you can also say, I'm out, but just do that on your own little Monday podcast. Don't bring that. That actually is a fairly good rule. If you and Dave wanted to like go ahead and decide you don't want to talk about it on Monday, it's fine. Just save it from me on Thursday.

I think we need a name for Joel's opening thoughts every Thursday. So let's open this up to listeners on Twitter or Blue Sky at the press box pod. preferably a pun, okay? The Joel nine yards, the Joel truth, whatever you want to say, throw that out there. Wow. We will be taking all nominees.

I like that. That's pretty good. I thought you were going to do the Tyson fight too, by the way, while we were at it. Oh, well, I mean,

you know what? I can't throw a little in there. Man, I mean, actually the fight before Sorano and Taylor was like amazing. That was a very good fight. And people got so mad about the Mike Tyson and Jake Paul fight, which I don't know what you all.

expected. But the fights before were actually pretty good. If you're a boxing fan, like they were, they were very entertaining and very, you know, they sort of epitomize like what people love about boxing. And then the next thing was, you know, that little spectacle, which again, as I said, Mike Tyson was losing to Jake Paul's 20 years ago. I didn't understand why people thought it would look any better this time around. I love that Rosie Perez turned on the fight like two and a half rounds in. She was like, Mike Tyson's done. I was like, wow. Really?

Really? Kevin McBride didn't show you that? Oh, my gosh. It was like the color analyst who is calling this and hyping this by definition is declaring the fight over. It's time to turn off Netflix. We're all good. I hope next time, by the way, that we can get some clarity on like, does he normally

bite his gloves and not? Like, nobody ever really. That was so weird. And then Maro Rinalo was arguing with Roy Jones during the fight about whether it was normal or whether the gloves were laced improperly. I was like, guys, when we have time to talk about this, that means this fight sucks. Oh, yeah, absolutely. It's just, yeah, I mean, it's like when, you know, Gus or somebody or whatever somebody in

the booth is like, yeah, they're talking about somebody behind the scenes and they've had a tough family situation. And, you know, we want to send us out to our PA, Byron, whose family is, you know, they kind of lost the plot by then. Just a bit. Yeah, that means the stuff on the field is not particularly scintillating. I got another topic for you. Ryan Glassbeagle of the New York Post has reported that Around the Horn,

the ESPN studio show that has fatten the wallets of sports writers for 22 years, is going to be canceled. The show will end in summer 2025. Do we need to have a Viking funeral for Around the Horn? Man, yes. Let me ask you this question, right? Because, I mean, you don't seem like you have that much ego. So I really admire that about you.

We're just getting to know each other. So trust me. It'll come out. It might come up. It might come up. Did you ever get jealous about not being invited on? Because I was like that. Like I remember the reason being, if you got invited on around the horn, it meant that you

had reached a certain level in journalism at that point, right? Like maybe you were the guy in your town or you were a big national voice. And it was so, at least for me at a certain point of my. career, it was something to aspire to. Like, not that I wanted to do it, but being invited on meant something about where you were in your career. Like, if you were like, yeah, I get to, you know, argue with Woody Page and Jay Marriotti, right? And make the money that they were making.

And so I really, like, at that time, it was like aspirational for a young journalist like me. But since then, it's come to represent something else. But did you ever feel that sort of professional jealousy? I would have happily taken the ego stroke, but I didn't like the show. Really? I didn't want to be on the show. Even from the beginning, never, huh?

I don't think so. I'm trying to remember the original Jay Marriotti days of the show. No, it wasn't for me. And later on, it was a lot of people that I really like. And I was happy for what they were getting out of the show and the, you know, the hand of ESPN was pointing at them saying you're the guy, you're the gal.

You know, Kevin Clark was on this week. And I'm like, that's awesome. That makes me happy. But as a show, it wasn't for me at all. That's fair. Ever. It just wasn't. Like, it was on.

That's what I mean, and again, Tony Raleigh seems awesome. It seems like a great guy. He does his job quite well. Tony's a great guy. But this idea that we're going to have like four different people every week with maybe a Woody or somebody like that carrying over day to day, we're going to do 30 minutes of every sports topic or every large sports topic

and everybody here is just going to have opinions about that. What is that? I will say as they moved away from having the sort of regulars that they had, and again, no disrespect to anybody because I know a lot of people like you said that are on the show now have tremendous respect for them. Pablo, Mina,

who have, you know, Justin Tensley, all those folks. that are on there now, good for them. But I kind of, it's like you don't know what to tune in for. First of all,

you didn't know who's going to show up every week, right? Or every day. And so it's just like, I don't know how they get invested in this. Yeah,

TV shows and podcasts too, I think are about relationships at the end of the day. If you're watching PTI, you don't really care what those guys think about sports. You are into their relationship with each other.

The shows that really work. If you're into first take, you're interested in Stephen A and you're probably interested in the way that Stephen A interacts with somebody on the show. Like that is what you are interested in. But with this show, it was almost like it was the anti-relationship show that we're going to put these guys in boxes.

They're not going to be on the set with each other. We're going to award them points for their takes on various things. And then we're just going to like 30 minutes later. I'm going to see you later. New people on tomorrow. Right, right. That the arguments themselves are would brought people in. And that's not how it works because you can get opinions on sports

anywhere at any time on any platform, right? If you, if you corner me somewhere and make me perform for you, I will give you opinions about sports. But yeah, it's about like the relationships and like, oh, I know this person and I think I know what they're going to say and how is it going to play off this person or whatever, right? And that was maybe, you know what it is? Maybe I'm fretting and this was, this would have been a much bigger deal. And you would have wanted to be on this show. Don't tell me you didn't want to be sports reporters. Oh, hell yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Now, it was once a week, and it was from a different era where it was a big deal to be picked to be alongside Mitch Album, Mitch Album, and Mike Lupica, Bob Ryan. Yeah. And I don't know if that's just how the world change. Also, that show, again, we're grading for era, right? Like, this is, around the horn is still going on in the Twitter podcast era. We're just your media consumption is totally different. Sports reporter starts way back, whereas, like, young Brian.

and young Joel on a Sunday are like, this is unbelievable. Yeah. These people are together. Yeah, man. These people that I have heard of but have never read because there's not something called the internet that serves me Mitch Albums column easily. Right. Right.

And also these are the people. Like these are the people that have made it other than SSI that have made it to the top of the sports writing heap. Right. Right. Right. I mean, yeah. I mean, look, man, they had on.

I mean, like Dan Levertodd used to be on there. And I remember when I saw Dan on there and I was like, man, he's kind of the young guy. But even so, like, I've heard of that dude. Like, you know, I'm at least aware of who those guys are. And it felt like, yeah, it was something to aspire to. But without, you know, I mean, I bet if you put it on TV now, like, if they just did like a sports century or they rode some footage of sports supporters, it probably looks so boring. Then it felt like they just set up some chairs in a dark room somewhere and let them talk. I probably like visually.

it's like because isn't this how most people theoretically experience ESPN it's on the TV the volumes off and like I can't imagine that that's great I can't know and by the way by the time it went off the air as a television show I know it's kind of come back as a germy chap

thing but when it went off as a regular show its run was over too like it was we had moved on in media time I think there's this whole genre of television which essentially if you pitched it as a podcast our bosses would be like, that doesn't sound like a good podcast.

If I pitched around the horn, I'm going to have four different guests every week, either Joel or I are going to host. We're going to award points if their takes are better. There's going to be 23 minutes of content and seven minutes of commercials. And then tomorrow we're going to have a whole new cast. They'd be like, what is that? Right. Yeah.

Yeah. And what are you guys experts in? Oh, we're not experts in any particular field. We just talk about Gino Ariema and then we talk about the Thursday night football game. And they're just like, what? Why would people want that? Do you think that some of this is also because, like, the sports columnist, sports personality, like, they're a dime a dozen now.

Like, it's just not, they don't hold the same place in the media ecosystem that they did even 10 years ago. And so, like, maybe if there was a way to recreate the moment when people cared about what people in sports media said in that way, then maybe the show works. But it's not like that anymore, right? It's not like that anymore. Two reasons. One is just, I think, the general decline of media and also the general decline of the sports columnist, the all-knowing person in the city who can opine. I was looking this up because Tim Kalashaw, Dallas Morning News guy, you and I know of and know well, he wrote an e-book several years ago. It's mostly about his road to sobriety and very cool in that part. But he also wrote about the beginning of Around the Horn. For whatever reason, those passages stood out to me. So I went back and read of this morning. This was the original meeting in 2002. Tell me if this does not sound like the most 2002 sports writing thing of all time. This is in New York.

Tim Kalashaw met with Jay Marriotti, Woody Page, Bob Ryan and T.J. Simers to talk about this new show. He says at the time that they wanted to have a sports writer or sports columnist, I should say, in every time zone. That was important to them. Wow. So stand up for Mountain Time, Woody Page. That's how Woody Page. Oh, my gosh. I was going to say.

And they went bowling and they had some beers and they all got together and they were going to do this show. And if you remember in its original incarnation, not only were they interested in getting those powerful sports columnists at regional newspapers, they were going to have them do the show from the newsroom. Oh, yeah. Remember that? I do remember they'd be in the Dallas Morning News and you'd see the glass or whatever. The glass and then people visiting them walking around in the back. Yeah, right.

Yeah. And then the guy who was taking high school scores in the back of the man, someday. I want to be Tim Kalashaw when I grow up. In 2002, that was me. That was very much me. So yeah. And Kalashaw writes in his book that by 0304, this is when the first of the big layoffs start happening in newspapers. Probably backdated even before that. So already these unshakable, you know, parts of our media landscape are being decimated. And guess what? There's a guy talking into a TV camera. delivering takes on national issues in the middle of your newsroom. He was very self-conscious about that. I remember going to the L.A. Times here and seeing Plashke's little set in the middle of the

old L.A. Times headquarters and being like, this is so funny. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because, you know, and I think, and you help me with this, I should look to see. T.J. Seimer's gotten a little bit of trouble, and I don't think he ever got invited back on RIP, T.J. Summers, by the way. I think he passed R. R.P. He trash his show. That is correct. when he was on it. Yeah, right.

He talked about how bad it was for media and, you know, promoting that sort of stuff. And I mean, look, I don't think around the horn was ever as bad as its critics made it out to be or that it did anything

to sports media that it wasn't already going to happen. But you kind of do get the sense that, yeah, he may have had a point about like the primacy of the opinion and elevating it above all other art forms or all other forms of journalism. You could see what he may have had a point.

there but I think he's in typical T.J. Simon style a little bit more with a little bit more venom than it was appropriate for the situation. Oh, absolutely. And by the way, it's the most 2002 thing ever to think that these people who are in Dallas and Denver and everywhere else will have the best opinions about national sports issues, many of which they have never covered in their lives. Like, oh, they will know. Now it's the opposite, right? You would go to the podcast, you would go to the writer who has the experts of Twitter account that has the expertise about that. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, I mean, I think actually, is that the thing that maybe, and I don't know if these shows contributed to that, if they expose that these columnists don't necessarily have, that they're not as, too, like asking them to talk about the Stanley Cup finals, but also game six of the NBA finals. Also, this, whatever happened with the Green Bay Packers, it's like, you're not able to keep up with all that. And it's kind of coming through a little bit, right? Absolutely. I mean, and that's where the world changes are the better. Not only do you have more than four people in a city who are allowed to give their opinion about sports, which is the way it was in the newspaper era. But you have like a real value on expertise. And I do miss the old columnist days a lot. There's a certain yearning for that because I think sometimes when it's a world run by insiders and analysts, you do miss that moral authority and somebody who could just come in with a big club. But it had down.

downsides too. And, you know, the downsides were like these guys were being held up as, as the smartest people in the sports universe. And like, nothing against any of them. But I doubt even, well, maybe Jay Marriott. I don't know. I was going to say Jay Marietti. As you said that, I was thinking it. And then you said it. So, okay. Did you love it when, uh, around the horn pulled a family matters and Woody Page became the urchle of the show? Like he was, he were a supporting player. And now it's kind of about you. Oh, yeah, man, they built it around. I mean, Woody seems like a really fascinating dude.

And I will say this, and this is very self-involved. Woody Page followed me on some, I cannot remember with social media account. And I still was like, wow, Woody Page. Like, that's that era. He's a legend. He's a legend. Yeah. I would love to meet the dude, like even still.

So Woody, if you listen to this, like, you know. We have a media person of the year award to give out. And if Shannon, uh, is busy. And look, Shannon played spent a lot of years in Denver, man. So maybe there's something that we could do, with the both of them, you know, we could get them together. I don't know. I think it was, when you talk about the way its critics talked about it,

I think part of the reason was the fact that it was a game show. Yeah. And then it was the anti-sports reporters in a lot of ways. You know, now again, there was a certain grandeur to the sports reporters, a certain, you know, high-mindedness that at times worked and at times just seemed like high-mindedness for its own sake. But I think in the initial run of this show, it was like, wait a second. You're taking the people, you're telling us, the most important people on the sports

section and you are making them, you know, game show panelists. It made them look a little goofy, but I think the thing was, too, when it first started out, it was a Max Kellerman vehicle. He was the star. He was the star. I don't forget that. He was the guy with the opinions, and they were kind of like, you know, he got to, he was literally judging the opinions because if they disagreed with his or he didn't think they made any sense, like his opinion was sort of the law on that show. And it just kind of a vibe. And then the point, the point, thing. And that was always the thing that I always just kind of could not get my mind around. Like, come on, man. Like, you're giving this person 16 points for, for this point.

And again, you had to do something. But I just kind of, that wasn't my favorite part. I kind of, I wish they could have done away with points. But I guess then you couldn't have the final showdown. Could not have the final show down. And to around the horn's credit, as the show has gone on, the pool of people that they are drawing from to put in those boxes got way, way better, more diverse, more interesting. And it was not just, here are the four guys, you know, who are holding down the columnist jobs anymore. How many women were on sports reporters compared to, like, Around the Horn? You know what I mean? Like maybe, I'm sure Jackie McMullen made it onto the panel with sports reporters. But, like, there were so many more women journalists, sports journalists that made it onto Around the Horn.

And that's a good thing, right? Like, we were introduced to a lot of people. And that exposure definitely helped with that. But yeah, man, it's just. Yeah. And that's the one thing. And again, I'm always like, if you tell me there's going to be a show, A show that I may not personally like, but it's going to make my sports writing brethren richer.

It's going to give them more exposure. It's going to convince a book publisher, an employer that they need to be rewarded that I'm like, in the aggregate, I'm like, that sounds great. What's more of that? We need all of this to work. Like even the people that you don't want to win, you know what I mean? Like we just need a media ecosystem where all sorts of things are thriving. Maybe not outkick.

I should say that out well? You know, I'm allowed to say that. You just did. Okay, sorry. We're leaving it in. Point for you, Joel. I'm pushing the button like Tony Reilly right now. I mean, I'm pretty open about people who I like and I don't like.

We can get into that at some point. But yeah, but we need a healthy, robust media ecosystem where journalists are rewarded and they get paid and they get prominent and all that sort of stuff. They're like, you know, just for our own self-interest. I would like to live in that world as well. And it's just sad when some of that stuff goes away because it's not going to be replaced. And even though I know Eric Ride Home, who is the executive producer of the show, is supposedly developing new ideas for that show, that window.

But it's just, you know, it's sort of sad when you go away and you see some opportunities go away. So that was the last point I was going to bring us to is the kind of fate of the ESPN daytime studio show. Right. Because it does feel like we're getting way to the end of that era. You know, Ride Home was the guy who always was making shows that were better than they should have been, you know, where there was highly questioned. or PTI and all these other things in high noon with Pablo and Bumani that like he was trying to make something that was like would work as a show but was also smart and interesting and had interesting people on it.

We're now to this point where I'm like if ESPN is going to no longer be a linear network that we push a button on our television remote and ESPN comes on. It's just kind of on during the day. Do those shows survive in an all-a-carat universe? I don't think so. I mean, those shows cost money, too, right? Like, I mean, it's not, because I think the thing is, is that the differences among the panelists or that kind of show is, like, so negligible. This is like, would you just rather have 30 more minutes of Pat McAfee? Like, I'm not, I don't watch the Pat McAfee show, but you could see them making that sort of, uh, thinking about it in that way or like 30 more minutes of Stephen A. Smith or whatever, you know, some live event or whatever instead of, you know, having that show, which, again,

I think the ratings actually were not that bad. It did have a dedicated audience, but I think they probably think they can do more for cheaper, right? I think so. I think the long-term plan is probably something in McAfee's one example of this, probably a little bit of a high dollar example of this, but something that looks more like a podcast that's on television. So you're not pouring the money into tons of panelists and studio and all that kind of stuff, and you're still filling the time.

Have you not known? I mean, of course you have. You notice that like a lot of the podcasts, they are running them on TV. I like Meena Kimes, this podcast. Like, it's on ESPN2 sometimes. So I mentioned Kevin Clark's. His Omaha podcast has been on there as well. Like it's, that's, that feels like the plan, doesn't it? Like you're, you know, it's like it's TV, kind of, but it's also something that we were doing anyway for another medium. Absolutely. And again, like, it's cheaper. Like, I mean, I get, I, I, I know they all have good agents and they're getting paid for it, but it's just cheaper than doing it the way that

they've been doing it. So yeah, it's like, hey, man, we get like right here in my room, I have audio equipment, not all of it. It's not here yet, but I've also got video equipment. And it's just like, we all are trying to do this thing. It's like, well, since you're talking anyway, why don't you get on camera? It makes, I can see the business and send it, for sure. When they bring the video cameras for the press box, I want to make sure I get a vote when that, when that decision comes up. Look, I think we're all on the same page. I don't think we'll have about the video tier. Yeah, yeah, my dreams of being on TV over for the record. I don't know. Okay. I don't care about that. Yeah, I don't want to do that. Please do not call Joel.

You need the book the next six months of around the horn. He's not going to answer. I'm not available. Last topic for you, college football. Yes. Now, we've got some vested interests here. You, because you've written about college football and you played college football at TCU. A fact I underlined, because David didn't know about it last week when we were talking about that.

I know, I know. Well, play is strong. I was on the team. You were on the, you played college football. That to me is that to me is against that question. I, on the other hand, watched college football and saw Ricky Williams on campus when I was at Texas.

Oh, man. I was talking about Ricky Williams the other day, man. Oh, oh. But yeah, man, that was a good time. That's so fun. One year ahead of me, that's my athletic glory as I was at school with Ricky Williams. You were at TCU actually playing college football.

But I thought of this because two weeks ago, I got a little concerned about Gus Johnson. Gus Johnson, of course, Fox's number one, college football play-by-play man he calls the noon game on fox it was ohio state really good versus peru not good and via awful announcing i want you to listen to gus's call of a scoop and score a scoop and score mind you by the ohio state defense first down to the 25 for peru and a fumble on the play ohio state is there they pick it up and run it in for a touchdown jack sawyer jack soyer Jack So not Gus Johnson's most exciting call.

Is he mad at Jack Sawyer? Maybe he didn't want. They might say, well, that put Ohio State up 38 nothing. The game was awful, and it was way over at that point. This is Gus Johnson's first touchdown call the game. And the touchdown was scored on a fourth and goal play.

And Howard runs it and scores. Will Howard crosses the line. Touchdown Ohio State. Well, I mean, have you ever played video games and just simulated some of them? You know, like when you played a season on like NCAA football, like maybe this was just, he knew that this was the simulation week, but he just happened to be in the booth. He's like, I don't have to play along with your simulation. Yeah, right.

I don't have to be able to. I don't have to take part of it. So maybe somebody, maybe he took some criticism to heart or something, you know what I mean? It's really strange. I can't see Gus being that bothered. by criticism from from anybody least of all Twitter criticism or awful announcing I just thought it was like when I heard board Gus Johnson and then I we've got number two Ohio State versus number five Indiana tomorrow which will be called by Johnson it was a good chance for us to talk about what the hell is

going on with college football and television this year man um don't you think it's great like I so you say what the hell is going on you may have a critique and I'm interested to hear, but like the only reason we're accepting all of this bullshit in college football, like the realignment, the, uh, the shifting, the, the, this move towards a more professionalized version, which is fine with me. I'm glad that guys are getting paid. The players, I mean, um, but it's like you get so many great helmet games, man, you know, Texas at Michigan, uh, Tennessee, Oklahoma, USC, Michigan. You know what I mean?

Like Michigan played Washington this week, and it wasn't really a nothing burger of a game because neither of those teams are good this year. But like, theoretically, that game is supposed to mean something. And if you turn on and you see Michigan and Washington play, you may stop for a while. So like, this has like been great. Like I've loved this season of college football.

What about you? Same here. And not only the helmet games with the mega games, Georgia, Alabama in September, Oregon, Ohio State was two weeks after. that. Georgia, Texas was a week after that. Ohio State, Penn State was two weeks after that, and now we got Indiana, Ohio State. And most of those games, I think all but the last two, would not have happened under the previous alignment of college football. Right. I mean,

right. You're a Texas guy. I mean, last week, UT renewed its rivalry, conference rivalry with Arkansas, man. That used to be a really big game. It did. It did. I was so happy. So mad and so happy at the same time to get that rivalry back. Yeah, well, mad. I mean, what did Hacassar for duty to you? Yeah, because they scare the hell of me because they beat Texas all the time. Quig Roevy doesn't play anymore. You don't have to be worried about it.

Okay, we're going to settle down. But I would like watch that game. That was about as nervous as I've been all year because I was like, we're going to go over to Fayetteville and we'll lose to those guys, which is fun, right? That's college football in a nutshell. Right, right. I mean, they hate you in a way, unlike a lot of other people.

I'm just thinking about it. Texas really kind of caught a tough break in this way that they've got to go to Arkansas, they had to go to Arkansas and then they got to go to Colorado Station this year. That doesn't seem fair. That was the entry fee to the SEC. Right. The people that hate you the most other than OU, you got to go there. But like that is what is beautiful about this realignment. And it makes sense in a lot of different ways. So yeah, this is quite the change from waking up on a fall Saturday. And you get up and you get up and. It's like, you know, 12 Eastern, you know, 9 Pacific. And it's like, oh, and, you know, we're coming live from West Lafayette. We've got Purdue versus Indiana that covered. I was like, oh, man, I don't have anything to do for the first three hours this morning. I can go run some errands or whatever. Like, I don't think Gus Johnson would have liked that era of college football that much more, right?

No, not at all. And I'm like, and I was thinking about, so the critique of the new system was we're essentially moving toward a two-conference, you know, college football world. We're going to have the SEC supersized and we're going to have the Big Ten also supersized. Would not disagree that 90, whatever percentage you want to put on it of the conversation of the network love revolves around those two conferences. That is absolutely the case. But then I was looking at the teams that are still playing very interesting, meaningful games and not just meaningful, but like meaningful to the playoff games this weekend. Arizona State, 8 and 2, playing BYU, who's also in that list. Army, 9 and 0 playing Notre Dame.

It's not just like, hey, it's be fun. If Army went 10 and 0, it's like, no, Army could be in the playoff. That's a thing that could happen. Absolutely. I mean, look, man, a couple of weeks ago, I was watching what was, it was two weeks ago, late night, there was the last block of games. New Mexico was playing Washington State. Kansas was playing BYU.

Both of those games had playoff implications. It's like Washington State was theoretically still like on the outside of the playoff conversation. And it like I would watch those games anyway because I'm a sicko. But they actually had stakes attached to them. And that's like what this was supposed to be all about, right? And for all the things that are wrong about college football and I don't know if I'm fool with college players playing that that long of a season, but, you know, going deeper into the playoffs or whatever. But like it's nice for even people in Washington State or. Provo, Utah to have something to like hold on to this late in the year, right?

Not to mention Albuquerque. Everyone's a lobo. Woof, woof, woof. I've been about those games. Let me tell you something. Look, man. Have you been to, have you actually seen a game in Albuquerque? My family's all Lobos, basically.

Really? Oh, so you did his Frenchoni friend, huh? That was a... I didn't say that. Oh, okay. All right. A lobo watcher is probably as far as I would go. But there's a lot of Lobo football out there for me.

Yeah. I mean, it's like, look, we're talking here on November 22nd. So we've still got a couple more weeks, conference championship games, which kind of feel weird in this new system. Yeah. And then we're going to have a month-long playoff, which is still something that's really hard to get my head around starting on December 20th. So we probably will need another conversation in January or something to evaluate how this is really gone. But as a season, I don't have a ton of complaints. just as a watcher of football and it's like, I wake up on Saturday morning and I want to have fun

and get involved and get invested, it's been pretty awesome. Man, the only problem is for those of us with children, families, you know, partners, whatever. Like, it's just kind of like, I, at a certain, like, usually by November, the person that is not the college football fan in your house is kind of like, okay, time for you to tap back in on the weekends. It's like, I'm going to need until, I'm going to need a little bit longer now. I need all of December now. So I hope you understand, baby.

It's totally right. I mean, especially because we live on the West Coast and game day starts at 6 a.m. Man, I know. I don't know. It's a lot to ask. It's a huge commitment, but I mean, we've got to do it, right? I mean, it's a part of our. We absolutely, that's my argument in the Curtis household anyway.

I've got to do this. I tell my wife who today, I was like, I'm watching this game for work. Okay. It's not just play. This is work that I'm doing here. we've always had networks in bed with various college football conferences. I think this is the year it probably became the most pronounced because you had the entire SEC schedule going into the ESPN ABC umbrella.

Right. Which has been wild. The week that bored Gus Johnson was calling Purdue Ohio State, let me just give you the SEC only schedule that week. Early game, Texas versus Florida. Afternoon, Georgia versus Old Miss. night Bama versus LSU that was one weekend

of SEC games man that's just bonkers man do you did you miss Vern Lundquist and Gary Danielson did you wish that had been done a little bit of my gosh I kind of I kind of wish they had been covered you know the music and everything too I kind of I'm not used to that yet but for that

late afternoon game and one thing ESPN's done is shift a lot of those late afternoon which would be the SEC game of the week to nighttime right like Texas Georgia and another universe would have been, you know, 3.34, 30 Eastern. Now it's a night game under the lights, which is a little bit different. Right. It feels a little bit different. Yeah. But I mean, I can see, I can see the logic behind it because like you want those stadiums on TV at night. Like,

the visual is a lot more resting. And you want the buildup, man. You want the build up, man. You want the build up to those games. I kind of get that. I get that. And you want the money from the prime time audience. That's all nice. That's true. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's Plus you've got all day of the SEC anyway. So it's like, hey, we had Texas, Florida on at, you know, noon. So why not? Let's just. I mean, like, I remember thinking like years ago, I was like, man, wouldn't it be cool if like Texas played Florida?

Like just Texas played Georgia and Florida. And like you would just, if you looked at like the history of those programs playing each other, it's like there's not much there. And they just play. Tiny little. Yeah. And it's just like, you guys aren't that far from each other. You guys should be playing each other more. And now we get to see that all the time.

That is so cool. It's absolutely cool. I love it. Now, the Big Ten has been kind of a weird fit for the networks because we got three networks that need a Big Ten game of the week. And let me tell you, there have been very few weeks where even two of those slots are filled with good games. The problem with that, I think, and maybe it will rectify itself, is that USC and UCLA have not held up their end of the bargain. And nobody really expected much out of UCLA anyway. But, I mean, I think all of us kind of expected USC would be more of a box office type thing. And like they've not been good. And they don't have a quarter of, I mean, wait, are they bowl eligible?

I don't, I can't. I think they were five and five last time I checked. Yeah, yeah. Maybe six and five now. Did they take a step toward bowl eligibility? We got five and five, five and five in the big ten. I mean, man, they lost the Minnesota this year. You know what I mean?

So I mean, presumably that won't stand for long. I don't know. I think Lincoln Riley's a pretty good coach, but I don't think that's going to go on forever. And so then maybe if USC gets good again, and, you know, I mean, all they really need is two of those West Coast schools to be good at the same time. And then maybe that will solve some of the problems here.

But then it'll still be like, they got to play Nebraska. They got to play. you know, Illinois, which Illinois fine program. Nebraska, they've got some potential with the Rayola kid, but I just don't know how much I really want to see them. And that, yeah, that has been part of the problem.

I mean, we could argue it's a bad luck year. Michigan's 5 and 5 too, right? Like what, under what scenario did you imagine the defending national champs would be 5 and one of the big box office schools in college football period? Right. Would be a 500.

5 and 5 and boring. Like, it's really boring. It's just not that's 5 and 5 and 5. They're just a terrible team to watch. Yeah, Michigan, Illinois game a couple weeks ago. That was a hard, even for Sickos. That was a tough, a tough watch. Yeah, man.

The only game that was worth watching with Michigan this year was maybe sort of the one against Indiana, when they gave Indiana kind of their first scare of the year. That was fun. That was fun. That was fun. I'm looking at CBS this Saturday, Penn State at Minnesota. How much of a sicko are you? I can get into that.

I like the PJ Flex squad. Man, they play tough. They got some good ball. But yeah, I mean, man, I just, I don't know. There's a national sentiment to see Penn State like, you know, unmasked, I think. So like that, there is that, like, if it's close, but if it's not, like, no. I mean, but really has, like, Penn State been a good watch since, like, Kerry Collins and to John Carter?

I don't know. Like, when's the last time you, like, looked at Penn State been like, this is an exciting, this is an exciting game to watch? I have not had that particular thought, but guess what? They're going to be in the playoff in almost every scenario. So we better, I guess, get used to seeing them some. also NBC this weekend SC versus UCLA you mentioned that's a major downer this year they do have Army Notre Dame but the only thing about SC UCLA and see if you agree with me at this the most beautiful game on TV year after year. I love both of those stadiums I really do.

Stations to color. Particularly the Rose Bowl but the Coliseum is pretty awesome too. Yeah, yeah the uniforms too just the way they are you know with the sunlight glinting off the helmets it is a beautiful game to watch on TV. Unfortunately, both those teams are terrible. It's a beautiful game about to watch on TV this week. What do you make of the weekly playoff bracket reveals that have generated so many first-take segments and probably also around the horn segments? I don't know why people get so mad about the arguing, right? Like, I think that's great. Like, it's good for the game.

I don't mind, like, for instance, in March Madness, when people are arguing about, you know, the 69th team that gets left. that gets left out, right? And it's just funny to see people already like talking about SMU or Indiana. You see Kirby, Kirby Smart has worked himself into a lather already like mad about theoretically. I don't even know what his concern is here.

Because they're probably going to be in no matter what. But yeah, like I like the play that off bracket reveals. And I don't watch it, you know, religiously. Like I'm, you know, I'll catch it sometimes. Sometimes I won't. But like, don't you? I mean, I think all of that is good for the game, and I'm cool with that.

It's amazing to me because whenever I laugh at people that cover college football, it's because they just like had these crazy overreactions week to week because they're like, what if five teams went undefeated? Like, that's not going to happen. There are more games to play. Like, and then this team would be left out of the 14 play. I'd be like, no, no, that will not be it. That will not be the case.

But now we've institutionalized the overreaction. we can give you something to be mad at. Yeah, absolutely. There's the bracket. Uh-oh. SMU. BYU. They don't belong in here.

Who's they play in non-conference? And the conference schedule is not that great. It's like, no, I mean, look, I'm glad that we can talk about this intelligently,

right? So, like, the more, the merrier, and I think that that would, this is probably why we're going to see the playoff expand again in a couple of years

when they get the chance to do it with the TV bills, right? Oh, all playoffs expand. Every playoff. We had 64 teams in the NCAA tournament, and somebody said, you know what, that's not enough. Yeah, man.

There might be the 65th team might need to be the champions. We need to have more teams. Yeah, yeah, man. I mean, look, I mean, what else are we going to do, man? We're going to watch MSNBC. No, we're not going to watch that. We may not even be talking about that, depending on how the vote goes here with the four of us

at the press box podcast. Well, we see who has a veto. I don't know who else is going to have the veto power on this one, but we know we are I stand on it. Two last points about college football for you. when we talk about those smaller schools that could be part of it, your arch enemy,

SMU, Boise this year, mentioned Army, Arizona, Tulane, BYU and Colorado could still be around here when the final bracket gets made. It's always interesting to me because I think Spencer Hall in a way gets credit for this and now all the sons and daughters of Spencer Hall where you look at college football,

a lot of writers do. And they're not just interested in Alabama, LSU, Texas, the brands. they're interested in all of it. They're interested in, hey, look at New Mexico. Hey, look at this funny thing happening. This is a system that, again, so far this year, and we'll see where we end up,

actually further dignifies that way of looking at college football. Man, yeah, no. I mean, see, I think that there's all sorts of ways to love college football. There's reasons to love it because the school you went to, and if they're good at football or not, right? Like, maybe there's a school you just hate, like you grew up, or a school that you grew up hating. Or you grew up in a state, you grew up in Louisiana, for instance, and you're LSU fan, right?

Like, you didn't go to LSU. You have no connection to them. Or you can be like, this is sort of a real look at the culture of the United States. And so I don't know if I told you this once. When I drove across the country to move to California, so I moved D.C. to the Bay Area. And I stopped at stadiums all along the way. Like, every time I said, I went to Northwestern. And I went to, I got, I took a picture with the Wyoming cheerleaders.

Like, you know, I went out there. Like, that is my jam. I mean, I think that like you learned so much about football. It's like, why do these people out here and Wyoming care about football? Like, why, you know, like they don't, they don't have their own homegrown talent. They don't have any chances. But it's just something about being in those stadiums and seeing the way that people come together on Saturdays in a way that they really don't and much else in this in our society anymore, man. And it's just sort of a lovely thing.

And so, yeah, when you can expand it and you can be like, hey, man, Army and Navy used to be really good. Let's talk about it. Like, if you can see, you go to the stadium up there and it's beautiful. Like, I think that people getting exposed to some of that is going to make them like and appreciate college football for a lot more than just Bama versus Georgia. You know what I mean? I think so, too. I think when you can give them a road that says this isn't just like a fun, quirky thing on its own

or like we can talk about Roger Stalback and think people that were here are, you know, 50 years ago, but we can say like, there's a path for Army to make the playoff, right? Beat Notre Dame and you're in good shape. Like this could happen or, you know, Arizona State, like talk about a school that has just not known a ton of football success, at least on a big stage. Like, that's, that's awesome, you know? It's not just fun, quirky thing to write about and podcast about, but like this could be a thing at the end of the year where they're sitting in this bracket with the other teams.

That's super fun. Yeah, it's like a, there's a football program in Boise, Idaho. not supposed to be good. Like, there's just no reason for it to be good. But, like, have you met Ashton Genti? But you know what I mean? Like, we can meet these guys and talk about them and talk about the history of these programs in a way. And yeah, like, I think the more that we can expand the base and get people excited about it, especially now that I have less reason to be embarrassed about liking college football because the guys get paid now, right? You know, in some way or another, like now, like, it's just like, all right, I guess you want to join us. Like,

this is really fun. Like, and it looks a lot better on TV than NFL games. I don't care. what anybody says. Like watching a game on a Saturday on TV is a much more enjoyable experience than looking at an NFL stadium on a Sunday. Last point for you here. I always love when there's a cultural crossover on the calendar between sports and the rest of the world. A couple of years ago, this is the last, we had the last pre-COVID Super Bowl and then

the Iowa caucus is where the next day, that was just like blew my mind that all that was happening. January 20th of this year we're going to have the final of the first ever 12-team college football playoff and the inauguration of Donald Trump as president of the United States. Those things are happening

on the same day. Well, theoretically the handover this time will be a little less contentious so they won't be... Are we talking about the playoffs or United States? Right? Yeah, I mean, but you know, like

Is Kirby Smart involved? I don't know. we could have a little. Hey, man. Were you at that championship game? Were you at that championship game a few years ago in Atlanta when Bama played Georgia and Trump came out? I was not. You were not there for that?

Yeah, man. And so, I mean, to be honest, like, my wife did not grow up with college football. And so she thinks everything about college football looks like MAGA. You know, like it looks like MAGA to her. You know, sort of emerging of cultures, if you will, in some ways. Like, it sort of makes sense that all this would be half a lot. we didn't get once. Oh my God.

I went to the Texas Georgia game this year and sat in the stands and the guy next to me was never happier in his life than when we had the flyover before the game.

I mean, he was into it. And we started the USA chant and started inside the stadium and I was like, oh wow, I'm back. Oh, man, here we go.

Man, here we go, man. I mean, look, man, I mean, you know, for better or worse, I mean, it's a part, it's a real, it really expresses parts of American culture

that if you don't, if you're only watching a investor BC, you might miss it. You know what I'm saying? Like there's a lot of people that you're going to run into college football that you're not going to expect. And so, you know, like it's, I mean, I think that's the good part of it, right? You get to see all different types and you find the world can move in all sorts of different ways.

You know what I mean? So. All right. We're going to be texting you and I during Indiana, Ohio State, both about the game and about everything going on at home. Just a little check-in to make sure relationships and everything are being maintained. Yeah. Brian, hold on, man. Before you go, did you tell anybody that it was your birthday this week?

Are you embarrassed to tell people? Well, I'm not embarrassed. I'm always a little embarrassed when I see the tweet or Facebook post. It's like, I just want to thank everybody for the birthday wishes that's like a day later. Like, oh, you just wanted one more round. I mean, it does help. And you get five more people diving into the comments, be like, oh, I'm so sorry. Happy birthday.

Happy belated for I. Yeah, man. Yeah. I didn't announce it, but thank you, thank you for reaching out to me and, and text to me about that, because that made my day when I got there from. Celebrate, celebrate yourself, man. And we're going to celebrate you, but also don't forget to celebrate yourself, Brian. Thank you very much. A good reminder.

All right, Shoemaker and I back Monday for more lukewarm takes about the media. We'll see you then. Joel, have a great weekend. Thank you, buddy.