The Press Box - The Kamala Harris Campaign, Fraught Political Relationships, and the Last Days of the Biden 2024 Beat With Axios’s Alex Thompson

Episode Date: July 25, 2024

On the Final Edition, Bryan welcomes Alex Thompson, a national political correspondent for Axios. They kick off the show by discussing coverage of the last two weeks, which included President Joe Biden dropping out of the race (1:14). Then he gets into the current relationship between Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris (16:24), the relationship between Biden and Barack Obama over the past few weeks (27:26), and what it will look like covering Harris now (32:14). Plus, David Shoemaker guesses another Strained-Pun Headline Host: Bryan Curtis Guest: Alex Thompson Producer: Brian H. Waters Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Get all your NFL and fantasy football needs at the Ringer fantasy football show on Spotify. Is it kind of lame? All your, fantasy football needs, I need fantasy football. Have all your fantasy football and NFL and all other types of needs met at the Ringer fantasy football show on Spotify? Yeah, that's it. Have needs? We got you at the Ringer Fantasy Football Show on Spotify. Hello, media consumers.

Welcome to Pressbox. Brian Curtis of the ringer here along with producer Brian Waters. Let us bring in our guest host Alex Thompson. He is national political correspondent for Axios. He worked for Politico. He is part of the Maureen Dowd coaching tree. And he has been writing some of the most interesting and must read reporting on Joe Biden in the White House and was doing that long before that very embattling debate. Alex, welcome back to the press box.

Thanks so much for having me. I usually prefer to go into conversations with low expectations, but here we are. Oh, God. I'm going to do my best. I appreciate it. All right, Alex. I want to start with the period between the Biden-Trump debate, which was on June 27th and Biden dropping out of the race last weekend.

What was that three and a half weeks like for you to cover? I hadn't done two all-nighters in a week since college. And I also, I think I had COVID. although it's very actually difficult to get a COVID test now. So I'm pretty sure I had COVID and I did two onliners in a week, the week after the debate. I've also done at least two onliners in the week since. It was the most intense period of reporting of my career. It was, you know, for a very bundled up White House, it was people I had been trying to.

to talk to, or at least if not talk to, be candid with me for years, suddenly became either candid or talked to me for the first time. And people I didn't even, honestly, weren't even on my radar as potential sources were cold calling me, which is not usually how this works. So it was a really intense, atypical experience. And honestly, it was, in some ways, like, while it was, like, very rewarding, it was very sort of, you know, I felt like I almost didn't have it. There were definitely not enough time. There was not enough time of the day.

Because you could have written an infinite numbers. I could have written so many more stories. There are still, like, I'll give you, my unread text messages are way over a hundred. right now. Same with like my signals. My email is just a complete disaster zone. I also have a burner phone that I have a public number that it goes to. I've been pretty good about that.

But there's also more like the amount of sort of tips and stuff. You have to be selective at that point and try to go for the stuff that is the most consequential. But it was it was just crazy. It was crazy. So so many questions about that. that one of which is this beat, the Biden beat. I think I'm characterizing it correctly when I would say it was consequential,

but fairly sleepy. And then all of a sudden, it's on fire. What was that like for you to watch and to participate in? I mean, the word is surreal because I always thought that Biden was very, very interesting. But it was one of those things that people didn't seem to care or didn't seem very interested, you know, as long as it wasn't, some of it was also like the trump of it all, I'm sure. But it was this thing where people, like, even if you, you know, I took, like with everything I do, I usually take a pretty aggressive, you know, somewhat adversarial attitude

towards people in power that I cover. And no one wanted to hear it. No one wanted to hear it. You know, and especially on the age stuff, which I covered, you know, going back. Basically, once he ran for re-election, I became much more aggressive on the age stuff. And I've been somewhat aggressive, but like really once he was like, I can do this till I'm 86. I felt it was like beyond whether or not he could win. It was also a question of like, well, what if he does win, be given how old he would be? But no one wanted to hear it or not no one. But like, I felt there was a bit of a, and then all of a sudden, you have that debate.

And not only does, they couldn't get enough of it, you know, like people wanted to know everything. You know, like stuff I'd reported over a year ago was suddenly being seen as revelatory. You know, like one example was this whole, you know, Biden is, I think I wrote, like, Biden is dependably engaged from 10 to 4. And then outside those hours, you know, it's sit or miss. Like, you know, he can sometimes be, you know, he can get fatigued. He can get tired. He'll make more gaffes, especially when he's traveling. You know, I wrote that in a story the day after the debate, but I had first written that in April of 2023.

But it only became a thing after I wrote that other, that story arrived after the debate. So it was, it was really striking. It was like a whiplash effect where no one wanted to hear and then everyone wanted to hear. So it's interesting in 2023 that Biden is keeping bankers hours. But all of a sudden after the debate, it's a data point that proves that Biden might not have the stamina to run for re-election or, as you say, be president for another four years. Yes. Reporters who've been covering Biden have talked usually anonymously about feeling like they were gaslit when it came to concerns about Biden's age and stamina. Did you feel that way?

Yes. I actually said it. It was sort of this, my first all night or the week after the debate was actually the night of the debate. And I was already scheduled to go on CNN, you know, the, you know, the 5 a.m. hour. So I just stayed up. And that was the first thing I said when I got on there was that the last three and a half years was this White House. had done a very deliberative process. Some people that knew better and some people that were just doing the work of flacking,

you know, of defending their guy. But they had, it was a, you know, it was a systematic gaslighting, not just of reporters, but of American people about his limitations that came with age. And that doesn't necessarily, I also think just because he has limitations doesn't mean he can't be a good president. But you can't say that as even, you know, Karene Jean-Pierre said the other week, he is as sharp as ever. Or as, you know, some other people, you know, this is, I think Joe Scarborough said, this is the best version of Joe Biden ever. You can believe, you can incredibly argue that maybe this is him at his best.

But the fact that you were not acknowledging that he had limitations at the age of 81, just what? I wasn't honest. And I don't, I still, some of them weren't honest with us because they knew better. And some of them just weren't being honest to themselves. And some of them were just doing what they had been instructed to do. What kinds of specific things would you hear when you were being gaslit? I mean, I don't have to like, say that it was just to me. I mean, they said it on the podium all the time, um, that he has relent. I mean, like, you've heard it. Like, he would wear out his seat. staff and he was so energetic. And, you know, sometimes that is true, like in moments. But, like, like, I mean, I think Jinzaki said on television, like, Joe Biden never does events before 9 a.m., right?

Or, like, public remarks for 9 a.m. Like, some of them, like, knew that there were rhythms to the schedule, right? That, um, but they would, they would go and say, they would basically attest to his virility constant. And it was just not candid. Biden left the race by posting a letter to Twitter, which made some people raise their eyebrows. What did you make of that? Some, you know, obviously there's some conspiracies.

Biden's dead. Jill Biden signed it in his name and posted it, you know, or or Conla signed it and posted it. You know, there are all these conspiracy theories. You know, my take was that, you know, and this is very much me, so don't, you know, any aggravators, this is not like a reporting thing. But my sort of read of it from talking to people that have worked for him for a long time was clearly he did not want to leave this race. He made that very clear for three and a half weeks after that debate that he was not going to leave, that he thought he was the most. electable person against Donald Trump. And if you believe you're the most electable person against

Donald Trump, why would you leave? But clearly that the power, the other parts, powers within the Democratic Party felt very differently after that debate and pushed him to step aside. And given what he considers the threat of Donald Trump, he obviously, you know, was moved. by that. But I also, I think the fact that he did it via Twitter and then, like, took a few days. I think, you know, Joe Biden is not a man without ego and he's a very emotional person. And, like, people have known him for a long time. Basically said, like, you know, he was embarrassed.

You know, you. And I think it, I think that's why it played out in the way it did. his final days as a candidate have been compared to both Nixon and King Lear, which pretty much covers the waterfront. He comes down with COVID when he was in Las Vegas. He goes to his home in Roebate Beach, Delaware, where he's huddling to use the only in journalism word with his AIDS. What do we know about what happened in those couple of days? So we know that there was an intense campaign toward his closest, advisors, political advisors.

So, like, within Biden world, there's the names that you may have heard of, like, Chief of Staff, Jeff Seines. There's the campaign chair, General Mallet, Dylan. But the five most important people beyond Joe Biden's family are Steve Vichetti, Mike Donnell, Bruce Reed, Anthony Bernal, who is the first lady's top aide, and Annie Tomasini, who has basically been with Biden sentenced to. 2000, sometime in the mid-aughts. I honestly, I'm not sure when she started, but she's been with him forever.

And they, you know, there was a feeling, especially with Mike and Steve and Bruce, that this was a crew that was not willing to give the president bad news. And they, by all accounts, gave him bad news that weekend and said, that there was potentially a path to winning, but it was an increasingly very narrow path. Also, the thing is, like, the big donors, the Democratic Party were saying, we're not going to give you any more money.

Like, we're going to give money to Senate and House races. They basically said that, I mean, I don't know what the right word for that is, but they were basically saying, like, that's a nice candidacy you have there. Wouldn't it be a shame? And then Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer and Huckingham Jeffries, by all accounts, were doing the exact same thing. So it was, you know, in sort of the old political science lingo.

And as someone actually in the Biden White House told me, it was the party decided. And, you know, Joe Biden, someone else close to Joe Biden told me, you know, Joe Biden doesn't make decisions. He evolves toward the decision. And that was the three and a half weeks post debate. And especially, you know, after the George Stephanopoulos interview, that first week, I think, will come to haunt some of the Biden people, especially if Donald Trump wins because you had that bad debate. You had that great North Carolina rally where he seemed like a completely different person, which still. like made people queasy but they were like maybe it's okay maybe it really was just the bad night

but then he disappeared and he went to camp david you know i understand annie leibowitz waits for no man but like why do you why do you insist on doing an annie leavowitz family photo shoot you know in this critical weekend or if you were still going to insist on doing it why don't you at least like show people proof of life and then you don't do your first interview for a full week. And actually, your first two interviews are with black radio stations where you're found to feed them the questions. It was just, you know, that first week, I think, if you're, if you're a Biden, you know,

Biden believer and you believe that he's still the most selectable person against Trump, they really wish they had that week back. So confounding for all of us from the outside. Do you have an explanation of why they waited so long to get him on television or to just show anything to the outside world? There was not a recognition of how bad it was. They did not realize the significance of the fallout. And that is partly because of how close-knit and how some of those Biden advisors

really didn't think it was that bad. It was like, oh, you know, he was off, you know, it wasn't great. you know, that was sort of how that they did not, like, some of his top advisors, like, were not at Camp David with him that weekend. They went back to their homes. Like, you know, and, yeah, like, Mike Donnellan, I mean, they were working remotely, but, like, Mark, Mike Donald was in Rhode Island. And, you know, there was just, they did not understand the severity of the crisis that this created,

which is, the, the crisis really was the, the Democratic voters were always deeply concerned about Biden's age. From the, like, from the moment he, I mean, really the moment that he won the presidency, but especially from the moment that he declared that he was going to run again. And the crisis was that the Democratic establishment, which had ignored those voters' concerns, or at least kept them at bay, had basically completely flipped after that debate. and were as just as freaked out as the voters were next. You had a story in Axis on Monday,

which you reported that Biden hesitated to drop his reelection campaign, in part because he and his senior advisors worried that Vice President Kamala Harris wasn't up to taking on Donald Trump, according to your sources. So let's talk about the Biden-Kamala Harris relationship. How would you characterize it as we sit here right now? The relationship between the two principles is decent. to good. I think Biden does see her. I think the phrase in Chris Whipple's book about Biden was he had privately said she was a work in progress. You know, I think I think the relationship is good, but still a little, like they don't quite get each other in part because they're just such different people.

So that, like, that's not. And I can go more into that if you want. like the relationship between the staffs is brutal, which some of the Obama people sort of find ironic because like the Biden people that have been complaining for over a decade about how the Obama staff treated Biden. Like a lot of them now treat Paris, like even worse, honestly. Like they're just, they were like constantly knifing her and saying that she sucked.

And that was, you know, it was interesting. I wrote that story, but like I was about, to write I was basically planning to write a story that said the Kamala excuse, which is that like all the Biden people were using Harris as the

excuse for staying in. But then obviously he changed his mind. And so then it just became a story about sort of looking back at saying, listen, like, you know,

the grass is always greener, but there were some significant reasons why the Biden team had a concern about her, but also like from the Harris side, they sometimes felt that the Biden team, knowing that his age was such an issue, was loathe to let her shine in a way and get too much attention because they never wanted her to be seen as a viable alternative ahead of 2024. for. That is, again, the speculation within the Harris world, but that's how they felt given

the, you know, the resources they were given, the attention, the help they were given. They felt there was sort of an effort not to let her, like let her shine, but not too much. And Biden and his team's concerns about Harris as a candidate were what? I mean, I think it was a combination of things. And there were really three things. One is, the huge staff turnover within her world. I went through just for analysis. So about half of the BP staff is paid for it by the Senate because the vice president is the president of the Senate.

So I went through and you have to disclose your staff. The rest of the vice president's staff is not disclosed, but that is disclosed. So I went through of the 47 people that were on her first disclosure as vice president, only five are still there. And then I went. back to vice president Biden when he was there and check me it's in the article that I wrote but like of the 37 that he started with by this time in the Obama first term 18 were still there so

dramatically different styles that was one uh the second one was I think they saw her performance in some of these interviews you know the Lester holt interview is the most iconic where or the most like are infamous where she's asked about the border. Have you been to the border? And she just is like, well, we've been to the border. We've been the border. And then she finally, he's like, but why haven't you been to the border? And she's like, well, I haven't been to Europe. You know, like that interview, I think made a lot of Biden people cautious about her or skeptical of her, like her ability to be nimble on a national stage. You know, I also think some of this, was also the Biden people.

Like they also may not may have been underestimating her, honestly, or talking themselves into her weaknesses because it meant that he was going to run again. When you say Biden Harris are different people, give me a few examples. How are they different? Okay, so let's take just like,

there's personal issues and there's political issues. Let's take the political first. If you, coming up as a politician in Delaware is so different than becoming a politician in California. Like, in Delaware, you almost can shake everyone's hand. And Joe Biden really tried. Like, the guy, like, people call him, like, the cliché is he's a tactile politician, right?

You read that in every other story. But it also is there's some truth to it. Like, Delaware politics is very friendly and personal and all about relationships. In, like, a neighborhood way. California is completely, giving elected statewide in California, it's really just about can you clear as much of the field at the top?

So it's like, it's sort of like managing up in the political arena and then managing up in the donor arena. And then it's about running as much TV ads statewide as you can. Like, because there's no way you can shake everyone's hand. And it's not, you know, to, that's not, both are very valuable political. skills. They're completely different. The personal level, like Joe Biden is like an 81-year-old

Irish Catholic dude in every sense of the word who is like so like his consumed sort of with his family. And basically, I think like Ron claim said in like a Washington Post story where, you know, he's not like a recreational reader. Right. Like the only thing Joe Biden carries. about are politics and his family and like some in his friendships like he's just like not he's that that's everything um just called my harris you know her uh you know first of all uh not irish cat white irish catholic um you know uh indian mom uh Caribbean i'm pretty sure he's Jamaican but correct remember wrong um um um um um father, grew up in Oakland in the Berkeley area, daughter of academics, and in very much

activist-y academics. And, you know, decided to go to Howard University, like, most probably prestigious, started Black College in the country and, you know, started as a prosecutor and worked your way up through San Francisco and then California state politics and is also very much embedded in pop culture, cares about like movies and music. And you see that by who she invites the Naval Observatory, who she talks to and references, her media diet. You know, like she really likes the shade room, for example. I don't know even know if Joe Biden knows what the shade room is. and you know like but joe biden also still gets clips from the news journal in delaware like the famous like a paper there so and i'm sure comla harris does not uh so anyways those are some of the differences

i want to ask you about two other fraught political relationships nancy pelosi is getting a lot of credit for helping engineer biden off the ticket or maybe just engineering biden off the ticket all by herself how does biden worldview nancy pelosi no uh i mean with incredible respect and at this point in some ways anger and trepidation um you know because i do think you know we'll find out through reporting how much i still don't i still don't feel confident about how much this is narrative versus like facts. I mean, she very much took the reins of this. As a former advisor put it to me, it was like she realized the boys weren't getting it done and so went for it. I don't still quite know if this is how she intended things to go

because she had also signaled privately and there was reporting on this that she would have preferred sort of an open process after Joe Biden left the ticket and not just a coronation of Kamala Harris. So I don't know if this actually worked out the way that she intended. But, you know, the most interesting anecdote, I mean, first of all, the reason why Pelosi was singled out in this is because she was one of the only people outside of the Biden orbit that he really, really, really respects. like he does not have the same respect for Chuck Schumer that he does for Nancy Pelosi. And he has great affection for her and respect for her political talents in a way he does not for a lot of other leaders within the Democratic Party.

That's why she took on this such a central role and why this one anecdote where she is talking to Biden and is getting in his face about what the polling looks like. And then he's like, guys, on the polls I've seen. And then she's like, get Mike Donald on the phone. And Mike Donald's been on the Joe Biden on and off since 1981. But by the end, was considered, you know, was thought to not like giving Biden bad news or was still just like too much of a true believer that he was not seeing things clearly. But like, I mean, maybe that's wrong. I don't know. But like that was how some people inside the White House felt.

some people on the Biden campaign felt how some people in Congress felt. And that anecdote where Nancy is like getting mic down on the phone, I'm going to show them the real polls. It was sort of implicit, I thought was fascinating. All right. So that's Biden Harris and Biden Pelosi. Now we've got to do Biden Obama, something that you've been writing about and talking about for a long time. And I know that's because you were on the press box four years ago talking about this relationship. what is the Biden-Obama relationship like now? I felt like this last four weeks was sort of the culmination of all of the resentments. And that it, you know, sometimes between friends, you don't speak some of the things that annoy you or frustrated you or you're holding a grudge against, right?

like because you just want to be friends this is the the period of time when you just you finally sort of say your feelings i felt and and that's what happened here like the fact is that joe biden deeply resented how by how he felt and obamas people have a different narrative here so like caveat that but they that he feels that Obama picked Hillary over him. And if you've been a very loyal vice president, and he was, that just stinks. Because it's like, yeah, we're friends,

but you thought she'd be better than me. You know, like, that's, like, there's something sort of deep down, especially like Biden who's always had this chip on his shoulder. It just, it stuck there and metastasized over the years. And, you know, they're not super close, right? I mean, they weren't even super close, like even right before this. And, you know, Biden has long felt sort of in competition with Obama once he became president and would privately say,

something to the version of, don't you think Obama would be jealous of this? You know, behind the scenes, when he would do something or get an accomplishment. And, you know, this was sort of a sad end. You know, in some ways, like the fact that Obama, that Biden seemed felt, and there was some reporting this effect, but like Biden seemed felt that Obama was sort of orchestrating his ouster in some ways. the Biden team did. And, you know, like he, the Clooney Opad wouldn't have happened without it, like, Obama could, it wasn't necessarily that Obama pushed it, but Obama could have stopped it, right? Obama could have stopped a Clooney Opette.

Obama could have stopped the Pod Save America guys from going full on, like, let's get Biden out. Like, he could have stopped those things and he didn't. And so, like, they felt there was sort of this tacit orchestration. And so, you know, I think that's very, again, that's, like, very painful. And honestly, it made Biden dig in even more. A former Biden advisor put it to me this way. It was like, you know, he already talked him out of running one time before back in 2016. Like, you don't get to do that more than once.

And I think there was that that resentment from 2020. 2016 and sort of bubbled up again. And the Obama world counter narrative about 2016 is that if Obama had blessed Joe Biden to run, that Joe Biden likely loses the primary to Hillary Clinton anyway and or Bernie Sanders and he doesn't win the nomination. And so it doesn't really matter if he runs in 2016. Well, so the Biden that it's around. So the Obama counterneurative does not include the possibility that he would ever endorse Joe Biden.

because Obama was like, I was going to stay out of it. And so, but the rest of the thing that you said is true is that like, if Biden had run, he would have gotten his butt kicked by Hillary Clinton and probably by Bernie Sanders, and he would have finished third in Iowa. And then he would have been, that would have been the end of his career. And then he actually never would have been president. And so, in fact, like, they were actually sort of saving him from a certain defeat. And because he didn't really get serious about running until, you know, in the months after Bo Biden died, which was, you know, the fall, late summer of 2015.

Which in fairness to everybody is how a lot of people felt about Joe Biden's 2020 campaign as well, right? This is going to be an embarrassment. He's going to certain defeat. Why is somebody ending a proud and wonderful political career like this? And then he winds up as president of the United States. I want to talk to you about Kamala Harris coverage because as soon as Biden steps down, we see a couple things happen. Harris makes this flurry of calls to lock down the nomination. A few more calls than Biden may have made the week after the debate. She gives a speech at what is her new headquarters now. What is now her headquarters? She gives a speech in Wisconsin.

Just today before we came on, she was criticizing the actions of some of the protesters in Union Station in Washington, D.C. What has stuck out to you about her first moves as the Democratic candidate or the probable Democratic candidate? Caleb? Well, so actually, the most interesting thing I have noticed is not something you mentioned, which is that she is getting destroyed on television advertising. Trump is spending 25 times as much money on television advertising since Monday, attacking her relentlessly. I think it's like $65 million in counting. You'd have to check me on that. There's any associated press story about it. But I think it's like $65 million by the Trump team versus just $2 million for the Biden team. And the fact that the Biden team has left themselves be outspent by that much, despite the huge fundraising numbers we're all reading about. Right. Like the media coverage has been very positive. She's having like a sugar hide. The Democratic base feels energized. They have a candidate that can, you know, sort of articulate this case. She's having this. But it's

I think under the surface, there is this, you know, I'm reminded a bit of like Mitt Romney in 2012, right, he wins the nomination. The Obama campaign is just boom and just like spends relentlessly against him. And so I think that's actually been the most surprising part this week. The other interesting part to your point is, you know, she is, she, she, like her first speeches have seen very confident, very comfortable. very comfortable, very, like, I got this. And that has been so comforting to the Democratic base. They are like so many people that work in this industry are excited again.

They feel even if they weren't Kamala fans in 2020. They are like giving money. They are, you know, just completely coconut pill. It's like the internet meme is. And it'll be interesting to see how. how she can't. I've been also sort of shocked about the level of enthusiasm among some operatives as well. And if she can maintain that, it'll be really interesting. You mentioned the glowing press coverage that Harris has mostly gotten since she became the, you know, the candidate,

or again, the probable candidate. What have you made about that? Are we making, as a collective media, are we making any mistakes in these first few days in covering Harris? I mean, I don't, I hate, even though it's the press box, I hate to play like media critic. I do think, you know, I think let's, the part of the reason I wrote that story about Harris, like, you know, right after, beyond the fact that I was already working on it was I was like, you know, there were real concerns about Harris and her candidacy and how her vice presidency has gone and how she, you know, and how her. presidential campaign flamed out. Like, let's, you know, let's not forget about those as we sort of assess how she's doing. The fact is, like, she still hasn't really sat for, like, any tough interviews. Like, she did those in several months, besides the interview she did right after the debate

with CNN, MSNBC. She is, and, you know, there's like a sort of, I think, you know, and I know you had us that her than from the New York Times on, just like the other week. You know, he did, you know, he re-released a podcast just this morning. We're talking on Thursday, where he sort of re-released his interview with her, which was, and he talked about how guarded she can be. And, you know, this is a moment. Like if she ever, like, she has the possibility to seize this moment. Things have changed.

People evolve. But, you know, I think, you know, going from. Well, she, in some ways, I think she was like underrated by the time we got to this point as like a vice president because the coverage of the first year was so brutal. And then people like the sort of the beltway sort of just like fixed into that where she just like she sucks. And then all of a sudden it's like, oh, she's amazing. I think there's like a little bit of like I have felt there's a little bit of a seesaw here and where it's like like she was she was underrated. and now it's like a little bit too exuberant. Like it was always somewhere in the middle.

So you can be a press critic. You were laying out there. But that's that's exactly what I was looking for there. And I think it's partly natural, right? You baited me into it. I made it to. I try to avoid being media critic. But you did a good job.

And I will say I think part of that is natural because she's new right now. Right. This is a group of people that were covering Joe Biden, covering what very much looked like a doomed campaign for weeks and or months before that. So here is somebody new. Here is somebody different. This is what always happens. And they're interested in it, right? And she's, and they're still getting up to speed. And to that end, I want to ask you this. In addition to reading you, who else should we be reading? Because Sam, there's a tweet from Sam Stein saying, Eugene Daniels and Christopher Cattelago of Politico are now the two most important reporters in the country.

Who are you reading about Harris right now? I mean, both Eugene and Chris are tremendous, tremendous Kamala Harris reporters. Chris got a Lago, if you don't remember, for my money, was the best reporter on Kamala's primary campaign, or not the, I don't, I know reporters get competitive. So one of the best guys, like one of the top three. But he, I worked with him at Politico at the time while I was mostly covering Warren and Bernie, and he was just, awesome. He's California base, so he, like, knows that entire world really well.

Let's see. I mean, Jonathan Martin, I think, would be wise to keep an eye on. I now have named three Politico people. Now you're going to get those emails. Here we go. Yeah.

Well, because what I'm thinking also is that Jonathan Martin and Alex Burns' book was the first which was called this. I have it somewhere here. It was this too shall pass or I don't know. I didn't really like the title, but the book was very good.

Oh, this will not pass. That's what it is. But it had the first real reporting about the Biden-Harris rifts and the resentments on both sides. And so I feel like he's plugged in to both of those. it's a good question

who am I reading about Harris those are the first three that come to mind it's a good start yeah here's my other question about Harris Jen O'Malley Dillon has gone from the chair of Biden's campaign to now the chair of Harris's campaign is Harris going to have the same people running the campaign

that didn't exactly cover themselves in glory running Joe Biden's 2024 campaign it's it's such a great question and we don't know the answer to it yet my instinct just knowing having seen Harris and covered Harris is that the answer is no

but they also this White House in particular hates is very sensitive to process stories like in some ways like the process stories the way that they react like they'll say like oh we don't care you know their outward they're outward

attitude is we don't care about process stories, but I can tell you from the amount of hours they spend on process stories, flacking them, to me, suggests sometimes they care more about how those stories affect their internal politics, rather than actually how it actually even looks. And so this all to be said is, I think she's going to be load to actually do a huge shakeup.

You saw that when she went to Wilmington and basically endorsed gentlemen Melanie Dillon staying in her job and said she'd asked her to stay in her job. But that means that she could still be layered. There have been reports about David Bluff coming back in in some sort of role or Jim Messina, they were Obama alums, who, by the way, Jennifer Melody Dylan worked for both of them in the 2012. And the 2012 race, she basically was under both of them. So I'm sure that would go great.

she was a deputy campaign manager on that campaign. I think there's definitely a lot of egos involved, but how they sort of navigate around that. I mean, you remember, like, they already layered, they already did a shakeup earlier this year when they brought General Mallet-Dillan in the chair of the campaign. I remember one of like my more, you know, there was like a flacking experience where they argued that

Jenna and Mali-Dillin wasn't running the campaign. And I said, well, who's running the campaign? Well, Julie Chavez-Rabets-Rabres-Rabres run. the campaign. And I was like, well, so what's Jenna Mellie Dillon doing? Like chairing the campaign. So, you know, I think there could be some layering, but they might not admit to layering. And by layering, we mean somebody's going to come in with a similar or even the same title, but in the room have the actual power over another person to run the campaign. Yes. So we could see some of that. All right. Last question for you, Alex. All the stuff we're talking about here,

today over this 40 plus minutes. Sounds to me like a fascinating book. Sounds like I would read a book about all of these events. And in fact, I read that you were writing a book about Joe Biden that the publisher who was Simon & Schuster pulled out because Biden books weren't selling pretty well. At least that's what Politico said. So given the extremely interesting political events of the last month and change, are you still going to write a book about Joe Biden and this election?

I'm going to try to. and I am meeting with publishers. I met with a publisher earlier this morning. There's publishers listening to this podcast. Reach out to my agent, Matt Latimer. But I haven't decided yet. You know, it was a very frustrating process before. I wish I had turned out differently.

But also, you know, the original timetable for that book was probably to come out in May, which would have just been a disaster because I would have missed the most interesting part of all of these things coming together. The family, like, because I was always very interested in the family, like, the family tragedy and love story of it all,

and also the Obama-ness of it all. And like, with the hunt, I think also we were forgetting, like the fact the hunter trial came before, right, two weeks before the divorce, debate and how emotionally consuming and draining that was for everyone involved. You know, all of that stuff. And then obviously the Obama factor that we talked about came in before after the debate. Like it all sort of ended up being a blessing in disguise. So we'll say, maybe. So you would have been on television and the name of the book would have been

in the Chiron, but you would then have been explaining all these events that took place after the publication of the book. Absolutely. That you would have been trying to get into the paperback. Okay. So you're going to want to read everything Alex Thompson writes at Axios and also possibly between hardcovers. If you are both a lover of politics and or a publishing person listening to this pod, Alex, thanks for coming on the press box. You're the best. Thanks so much for having me on. It's time for the second weekly edition of David Shoemaker guests in the strained pun headline. Ooh, crazy political events transpiring so far this week, huh, Brian? really have been David

you were kind of quiet for that 30, 40 minute discussion about all those crazy political events but I'm glad to see you've got your microphone again and you're ready to go speaking of political events David here's one we haven't talked about New Jersey Senator

Robert Menendez he was convicted of bribery among other charges according to a Politico headline sent to us by Tyler Hendrick some of those events that were talked about in the trial happened at

IHOP. IHop. Now, I want you to count IHOP as a diner for these purposes, a diner. Okay, thank you. As you ponder, what was Politico's strained upon head. Diner infractions?

Diner, diner, uh, don't forget the, the specific charge and in fact, conviction here was. Was bribery? Mm-hmm. The unit of bribery is a coin, dollar?

No, no, is a bribe. Oh, sorry, bribe. So we've got two words here for you to play with. Bribed diner. The bribe, uh, dine, um, I think of a character from a food world, we talked about on Monday's show. Bribed. Oh, diners.

Yeah, diners and drive-ins and bribes. There we go. Diners, drive-ins and bribes. Yeah, that's a good one. That is the press box. I'm Brian Curtis, production of magic by Brian Waters. got a couple of announcements for you. First off, I couldn't help but put this on the

press box Twitter account. Did you see us zooming up the Apple Sports Podcast rankings? Number 22, when I took the screenshot, I think we actually got higher than that. When I was looking at all the pods that were at that highest spot in the rankings, I noticed we were the only ones

that were actually about Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. You know, as Donald Trump would say, many people are saying they get their sports news from the press box. We appreciate all you listening. Announcement number two and far more important. Do you live in Chicago? Or are you going to be in Chicago for the Democratic Convention next month?

Because I would like to have a little meet and greet, a little party. Details are still coming together, but we are potentially going to do this on Sunday, August 18th. If you would like more details when they're available, hit me up at the press box pod or just write me directly. Brian with a y. curtis at the ringer.com. I've already heard from a ton of people. Rianne and Meg and Seth, John, Andrew, Brad, on and on and on. It's been a fantastic, fantastic response.

We'd love to see you in Chicago. More details to follow on that. We had one person write me and say, do I have to be a member of the media to come to the meet and greet? No, you do not. You just have to be a fan of a media podcast. Trust me, we're going to have enough media hanging around with each other in Chicago that week.

It's like when you eat too much fish and you get mercury poisoning, we want to avoid that at all costs. Next time you hear from us is going to be Monday. Shoemaker will be back with more lukewarm takes about the media. Have a fantastic weekend.