The Press Box - The New Epstein Emails, Pat McAfee and Donald Trump, and the Nico Harrison 'Now They Tell Us.' Plus: NBC’s Cris Collinsworth.

Episode Date: November 14, 2025

Hello, media consumers! Bryan and Joel discuss what is in the newly released Jeffrey Epstein emails, how this information paints journalism, and the Michael Wolff of it all. Next, Bryan and Joel analyze President Trump’s appearance on The Pat McAfee Show, including how the show received him, the topics they covered, and how this interview reflects on the modern ESPN content ecosystem (17:02). Then, Bryan and Joel dive into Nico Harrison’s inevitable firing by the Dallas Mavericks (34:14). The show ends with the next installment of 25 for 25 as Cris Collinsworth joins to talk about the differences between Al Michaels and Mike Tirico, owning Pro Football Focus, and his time in talk radio. (47:48). Plus, Joel brings us to J School! Hosts: Bryan Curtis and Joel Anderson Guest: Cris Collinsworth Producer: Bruce Baldwin Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, media consumers. Welcome to Press Box Thursday. It's Brian Curtis. It's Joel Anderson. It's producer Bruce Baldwin. Coming up on the podcast, what's in the new Jeffrey Epstein emails besides Michael Wolf? Over on ESPN, Pat McAfee, welcome Donald Trump to the program.

We ask, who's going to narrate the Nico Harrison now they tell us stories? And in the latest installment of our 25 for 25 series, We're going to talk to NBC's Chris Collinsworth, about Sunday nights, Lions, Eagles game, and much, much more. Plus, Joel has a special edition of J-School about James Tala rica. All right, Joel, we got to start with the Epstein Files. Man, do we really? We do.

It's that kind of week, man. Wednesday morning, Democrats released three emails from the mountain of documents they have relating to disgraced sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. There's not another way to be a sex offender than disgraced. Yes. Perhaps. I just wanted to make sure we had a descriptor in there.

And in battle, we're way past in battle with Jeffrey Epstein. He's in battle. Yeah, not vaunted. No, certainly not. So the Democrats put out those three emails and then House Republicans followed with 20,000 pages of emails and other messages that you've probably seen flashing through your Twitter feed over the last couple of days.

Oh, yeah. There are so many people, dude, in these messages. It's shocking. Isn't it? And that's, when you talk about it flooding our social media feed, that's the thing that almost makes it feel kind of, is this real? Is this an actual email from a real person?

Because sometimes it just seems a little too on the nose, right? It really does. This is Paul Blumenthal's list over at Huff Post. Others who reached out to Epstein included New Age guru Deepak Chopra, Woody Allen's wife, Sunyi Previn, magician David Blaine, and it just goes on and on from there, and you're like, what? Yeah, Ken Starr, former president of Bailey University. Ken Starr made an appearance.

It's almost breathtaking the number of people that were here in these emails. Like Larry Summers, man, having a back and forth with Jeffrey Epstein. about a young lady. It's kind of, again, it will be really easy to look at that stuff and think, oh, this is just the normal fakery on Twitter, right? Or some sort of, not an AI trick, but just people just, you know, making documents up or, you know, giving the presentation of something official and using it to malign or slander somebody. But no, these are actual emails of some of the most famous, wealthy, prominent people in

America having, it seems, really intimate acquaintance with one of the most notable pedophiles of our time. And that's what makes this story so amazing, because there's news here that you can print in the paper. As you say, this is not, you know, Reddit imagination land. These are real messages that you can print in the paper. But those real messages also feed and inspire a thousand guesses about what isn't in the paper yet. Right. So we have the story in front of us, which is large and strange and, as you say, mind-blowing in every way.

And then for those of us who want to go there, there's that other story that is yet to be discovered, which is the thing that has always fed the Epstein story, at least as it relates to Donald Trump. Yeah, absolutely. I guess that's the thing, is that this has been part of, our lives for close to a decade now, right? Like this story. It gets its start from a local journalist out of Miami, Julie Brown, who's really been at the forefront of reporting this stuff. And yet and still, through all this time, through all these documents, the thing that people

either want confirmation of, or, you know, it happened or it didn't happen is Donald Trump here, young girls under Jeffrey Epstein's employer. whatever over here. And like we're trying to figure out like that is really the the substance here. And it's just crazy that after a decade, everybody having access to all this information that it doesn't seem like we're any closer to knowing that right now. It doesn't. And of course, this is all happening, speaking of knowing things, just as new representative at Alita Grijalva got sworn in to the House of Representatives and became the 218 signature on the discharge position that would force the Justice Department to release the Epstein file.

All happening at the same time. I want to go one by one through some of the messages that got the most attention from this trove, this tranche, to use the only in journalism word. This comes from 2011, and this is probably got the most attention this week. Jeffrey Epstein is writing to Galane Maxwell. Epstein writes, I want you to realize that that dog that hasn't barked is Trump. Dot, dot, dot, dot.

And here a victim's name was redacted, spent hours at my house with him. He has never once been mentioned. Police chief, et cetera. I'm 75% there. And Maxwell responded, I have been thinking about that. An important thing to remember here is that, you know, Epstein is being coy, in part because the Justice Department is not opened, It's investigation material at this point, right?

The new investigation. The new investigation, right? Like, he had reason to believe that people were interested in the context of these emails and the things that he had going on, but he didn't want to come out yet because he's still trying to protect his freedom. So that's why it just, yeah, all of these little cutesy hints, sort of like the birthday cards to Donald Trump, right? Like, you know, the birthday card never comes out and says it.

The birthday card, you mean to Epstein? from Donald Trump. That's right. That's right. It also feels like there's this kind of code that's being talked in that again seems very suggestive

but that's sort of what we're left with at least at this point. Another message is Donald Trump's, and I'm quoting here from the New York Times, as Donald Trump's presidential campaign gained traction in December 2015, Mr. Epstein asked Landon Thomas Jr., then a New York Times reporter,

would you like photo of Donald and girls and bikinis in my kitchen? Yeah, I mean, what did Landon Thomas say? I have to go back and look at his response to that email, but I'm guessing he wanted to, well, I'm not going to guess anything. Next message here, again, quoting the Times. A few months later, in March 2016, Mr. Epstein was bracing for the publication of a book, Filthy Rich, that detailed allegations against him. The journalist Michael Wolf, who had in a longstanding relationship with Mr. Epstein, more than Michael Wolf on a second, told him that he needed to serve up a quote, counter-narrative to the forthcoming book. I believe Trump offers an ideal opportunity, Mr. Wolf wrote.

It's a chance to make the story about something other than you. Michael Wolf has been one of the faces of some of the worst, most notorious allegations against Donald Trump since Donald Trump has been of this sort of a public figure. It should make people question what sort of arbiter truth he is that he didn't tell us this. We didn't know. we had to find this out. He didn't come forth and said, hey, yeah, actually on the side,

I was giving advice to Epstein, you know? Well, let's fast forward to the Michael Wolpard here because the other email that people really made a lot of hay out of was 2015. This is when Trump is running for president the first time. Wolf writes Epstein and says, hey, I think CNN is going to ask a question to Donald Trump about you tonight. And then he offers Epstein some advice. I think you should let him hang himself.

If he says he hasn't been on the plane or to the house, then that gives you a valuable PR and political currency. You can hang him in a way that potentially generates a positive benefit for you, or if it really looks like he could win, you could save him generating a debt. So he's explaining political, boy, what's the word I'm looking for here? Is it not, is that compromise? Is that the word that we're using that?

Sure. Sure feels like Compromont, doesn't it? Yeah. I mean, I mean, he's, I get, blackmail is probably too strong of a word that's like legally loaded. So, um, leverage. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. He's discussing with this guy who is again accused. At this point, he's well known to have, you know, been accused of, um, trafficking young girls. And he's giving him. this isn't legal advice. This is advice for just how to have leverage that would be helpful to him

going forward from the President of the United States. That is, I mean, again, Michael Wolf, you've released these books, you've done all this reporting, you're supposedly at the center of this stuff, you're behind the scenes here. Why did you not tell us this? Right?

I mean, we know why you didn't tell us because it makes you look bad. It makes you look bad. It makes you look bad. But therein is the problem, right, Brian? But does this surprise you at all, honestly? That he would, I mean, maybe the particulars here, but that he would have relationships with a source

or potential subject that would be way different than the relationships that a New York Times journalist would have? I'm not surprised that he's involved because he always seems to have clearly had like these very weird relationships with the people that he covers. And it's like, you know, Trump doesn't say anything about Michael, like, very rarely. Like, he doesn't bring up Michael Wolf very often at all, right? But I think I'm always sort of surprised by people who are prominent and involved in some really shady shit. And they write

an email. Like, that is, wait, I'm always, like, surprised by that, like, you're willing to put something down in writing. Because all emails eventually come out, all text messages eventually find their way on the Twitter. Surely by that point in your life, you know, and you've been told or educated on the idea that any email that you write is, like, you write an email like somebody's going to see it because inevitably they will. Just for the non-journalist listening, and there are many, many of you out there, it's worth saying that this is not normal at all.

This is not a normal relationship. I think journalists have relationships with subjects or sources that often has a kind of off the books portion to it, by which I mean somebody will say, what do you think of this? What do you think of that? And maybe sometimes that bleeds over into an advice, an opinion, something like that. But this, the idea that he is trying to tell Jeffrey Epstein how to handle his, his, the public revelation of his relationship with Donald Trump and that, you know, that he is, you know, using words like this, it's just, I just, you know, with a positive benefit, generating a debt.

I mean, that's just so beyond the normal bounds of that kind of relationship that it is mind-blown. Or it should be, right? But I think the thing that has been sort of revealing in the last decade or so, from Olivia Nutsi to this sort of stuff, is that actually this stuff might be happening more than we even know, though. So that's the thing.

Like, it's not normal, but it might be happening more than we know. And it just suggests that the world that you have to inhabit. Like, if you're going to report about politics at a certain level, or these very wealthy and powerful people, that, like, there's a kind of ickiness

that's involved in being attached to it, right? that like it's not going to be, it's not the Woodward and Birdstein type of investigative journalism. You're thinking there's a lot of favor trading that goes on. And that's even in sports. Like, and we've heard, like, you know, the likes of Adam Schaefter, whoever say, sometimes I give some information, sometimes people give me some information. And that's how you kind of come a scoop artist, right? And people learn to know you and tell you things.

And it's just like, I mean, sometimes the way the sausage is made to borrow Booker McFarland, thing. You might not want to know how some of these stories get made or why some stories don't get told. I don't know how I feel about that because on the one hand, I agree with you that there's more Ick than we know and that we will ever know. Yeah. But there's a big difference between low-grade ick and, you know, 100% pure Colombian ick. I mean, there's just like, to me, the stuff, the examples you mentioned, they stand out

because they are wild, right? They are, you know, they shock us when you were much shocked me not. Ralph, there's that. I mean, again, like, I don't know. It's a hard one to parse out. But I also think one of these, that also to me sounds like people on Twitter, like, you know, all those journalists are corrupt. They all do this.

Like, actually, they don't, you know, like there's a lot of people that, that don't go down those strange paths when they're doing that. There's a lot of people that don't, but I'll say this, because I think one of the, I remember there was a time of my career when I had to do one of those jobs that, you know, you had to break news or whatever. And the problem is that, you know, ESPN just comes in over your head, just beat your ass. You know, it's just like you wake up and it's being reported somewhere else. And I always just remember, like, who am I supposed to be talking to to get news? Like, I was just kind of young.

I was in a position that I'd not been in before. I was competitive. And I didn't have a mentor that was working in that particular field. So I just didn't know who to kind of go to. And I think that I was surprised as I've gotten older over the years about the sort of like off the books relationships as you mentioned, Brian, that goes on in journalism just as a rule. Like there's a, the thing is, you're right. It's not always this level of ick, but because there's sort of a permission structure that goes on somewhere and people don't ask a lot of questions about how is this source. How did you get this information?

Like even the people that employ the writers and the journalists, yeah, they got to ask. Absolutely, absolutely. And like even the permission structure that allows like unnamed sources to just become a routine part of journalism on very low-stake stuff. Like a source told me that this coach was going to get hired. You know what I mean? Like that kind of stuff, right? So I've learned journalism for this. I would understand why people have questions about certain kinds of journalism and political journalism.

I mean, journalism any kind because of stuff like this, right? But again, I think that's too broad a brush. You know, like, again, I think there's, there's a lot of ick out there. There's a lot of daily ick that you and I enjoy, you know, pointing the finger at and being like, that's, that story sucks. Stay tuned for more if you want more of this podcast. But I also think there's, it's important to understand that there's a hierarchy of ick, if you will. This is, this is, this is up the scale. This is a different thing.

It's top of the scale. Then the agent told me the transaction was. about to happen. Like, I mean, to me, that's, again, I don't go in for either one of those necessarily, but, you know, and then I say nice things about the player of the agent to finish off that thought. But I don't necessarily go in for that, but those are different things. They're just really are. I think they're different things, but one enables another. Like, just we don't ask a lot of questions about access journalism, you know, and a lot of those, and those people get all, they get a lot of the spoils in journalism. Like, they get the, you know, the reputation,

the top jobs. Those, that kind of journalism is probably. all the time. And I think the thing that always sort of annoyed me is I've come up through newsrooms is that a lot of times people just don't ask questions about how people get their information, man. And again, it doesn't mean that all of us do it. I don't believe, to your point, Brian, and I should clever. I don't think that that is like the majority of journalists or whatever. But it's enough that I could understand why people would have questions. It's really well said. Speaking of access, let's talk about Donald Trump going on the Pat McAfee show. Jesus, man. So on Tuesday, in convention,

conveniently the day before this Epstein story landed. Pat McAfee was on Paris Island on the Marine Corps installation there to celebrate Veterans Day. And Donald Trump called into his show. Here's how that interview started. Ladies and gentlemen, joining us now for the first time ever. The 45th and 47th president of the United States of America, Donald J. Trump. Yeah. Mr. President.

Hello, Pat. Hi, Pat. So most people would think with our show that this would be an impressionist of the president because no president would actually join us. But on this Veterans Day, we want to say, Mr. President, thank you so much for joining us. Well, thank you. And I'm only joining you because I hear you say such nice things about me from your very large audience. I have always heard you've said such nice things.

So when people say nice about me, I join. When they don't say nice about me, I take a pass. Okay. I love that we're clapping for Donald Trump, just like we're clapping. when Nick Saban or Ian Rappaport would join the McAfee show? Oh, yeah, absolutely, man. You know, welcome, you know, Antonio Freeman to the stage. Yeah, and it gets the same sort of applause.

It's clearly a flex on McAfee's part. What kind of flex is it, do you think? Well, I mean, we've, it was months ago that it was reported that Pat McAfee is thinking about going out on his own again, right? Like, that's the story I have not forgotten. Well, I think that's just like the undercurrent of every single Pat McAfee outbursts since he started. I could leave you. Right.

At any time. I don't need ESPN. I'm a real bad romantic partner, man. It's just like, you know, I don't need you. I could leave you anytime. Anybody be willing to have me. That's Pat McAfee. And he wants everyone to know that ESPN can't control him and that he's got friends even more powerful than Jimmy Petara.

Right. It's almost daring Jimmy Petaro. All right. Go say something. Because again, we've talked about how ESPN and Disney, they need Trump right now to get some things down the line here. So it's like, hey, all right, come for me. Come for me. And also, the ESPN front office is not saying anything about Pat McAfee.

They have, we've seen this. We've, you know, and I've sat in Jimmy Pettero's office and asked him about this. They are not saying anything about what happens on the Pat McAfee show. And if they are saying anything, it happens weeks or months later. So, no, you're right. You know, you put them in that position. And the background here when you talk about McAfee and Donald Trump is that on Friday or last Friday, McAfee broke the news that Trump would be attending the commander's lion's game.

The White House retweeted McAfee's tweet with emoji eyes. I should also note that McAfee said he reached out to Barack Obama about appearing on the Tuesday show, but there were scheduling issues. And I love how he took scheduling. issues seriously? Isn't that, you know, kind of kind of the thing you say when you don't want to go on? I'm sorry, we just can't make this work. I mean, that was Jailet Hertz when they asked him why he didn't go to the Trump White House to celebrate the Eagles thing. He's like, I had that stuff going on. So yeah, it really can't cover a lot. It's an effective, if people don't ask too many more questions.

I would like to see, I have not heard of anybody who's called the Obama folks, of spokespeople to confirm whether or not that is true, that would be an interesting thing to happen. And yeah, I guess that's something we could do ourselves too, so I can reach out. But I'm interested in that. And honestly, I believe that Pat McAfee would have taken Donald Trump and Barack Obama on Tuesday because, first of all, you know, most, I think a lot of people would have taken both the president and former president of the United States on their, on their podcast or on their

ESPN television show. But, you know, I think I believe in a way. we'll talk more about McAfee and his approach to politics here in just one second. A couple of things that stood out to me about this interview. First of all, McAfee was doing his game day bits with the Marines who were seated near the stage. Just like when he's in Columbus and he turns the crowd, oh, H, I, oh. He was turning to the Marines and hoorah! He's got one, I mean, again, obviously it's very effective, but he's got one move.

You know, I had a friend that I played. football with he was wide receiver man he was six foot three hundred and ninety pounds but he just had no wiggle to him we called him one move because he just he had to get his so that is that is pat maccophie pack mcuffie's one move he's got one move but it's effective it works the other thing that really moves is the scyth sometimes it is right and you go all the way the hall of fame with it or huge ESPN contract the thing that stood out was pat really wanted the interview with trump to be about the troops yeah and sports.

Yeah. He wanted to keep it there. Of course, Donald Trump was not interested in making it solely about the troops and sports. I mean, that's sort of the frustrating thing, because if

that's true, then he's very stupid, right? Like, if you thought that you were going to have Donald Trump, President Trump, come on and talk, and I'm just going to keep it, we're going to keep the politics out of this thing. We're just going to talk about the troops in sports, well, then you're dumb. Like, if that's what you really thought was going to happen,

because we've seen people much more capable than him. And Pat always tries to do, well, I'm not a, you know, I don't know anything about the political world, right? I'm just a sports guy, you know. So we've seen people so much more capable and experience than him have real difficulty trying to contain him. I watched an organization that I care about in ABJ, have Trump come and speak to them last year. And people thought that they were going to be able to contain him. And that's just not how that works, bro. Like, it's just not going. So once he comes onto your show, or once you give him the microphone, you're not getting it back until he says he's done with it. Oh, Noro Donald the other day, same thing. It's very, very difficult to do, especially in Pat's

case, if you're doing it live. So he's trying to stick to the troops or stick to sports, if I may coin a phrase. And Trump's talking about Joe Biden, Donald Trump's lying once again about the 2020 election. Donald Trump's talking about immigrants. Yeah. Here was a great example of that. McAfee asked a semi-innocent question about the government shutdown, kind of like, isn't it great that the shutdown's over?

Listen, and you're going to hear Trump pivot, and then you're going to hear McAfee desperately trying to pivot away from that. They tried to basically renegotiate the great big, beautiful deal. They weren't able to get it. And now they said, let's close up our country. We'll see if we can get it. again, getting it for people that came into our country illegally from prisons, from gangs, from mental institutions, from, you know, places that you don't want, and giving them one and a half,

think of it, one and a half trillion dollars in medical costs and things, you just can't do this. You can't do it. And it ruins it for everybody else. So they were not successful in renegotiation and it looks like it's going to be opened up. But you're right. It's, the House has to vote. And then, of course, I have to sign it. Okay, so once again, I don't know your guys' world.

I assume everything you just said there will have some people very pissed about it. And then obviously the rest of the world, United States of America, will be very excited that the government is back open. So I think that deserves a big, ooh, roll. Yeah, they're loving enough to government. I mean, I'm sorry. I'm laughing, but part of my language, get the fuck out of here, man. I mean, seriously, but like you've got, I mean, don't you, I'm trying to remember what clip it was from earlier this year with somebody said. It was a couple of guys like some influencers that had, were coming to regret the support, the earlier support for Trump.

They're like, well, I didn't want to see immigrants rounded up into streets and all this stuff. And they were, you know, they were belaboring that. And the guy next to him was like, well, you're an idiot. Like this, you're fucking stupid. Like, you're the guy that this is, you gave him your platform. So be prepared to be an adult. You know, you get millions of dollars. Like, don't back off.

You're supposed to be the talent here. So like, engage. Engage in the way that a million dollar, a $15 million a year talent is supposed to. This is the bro podcast problem in miniature, is it not? Mm-hmm. We have Donald Trump on. It's going to be fun. It's going to be different.

Not going to be like those network news interviews. but then as McAfee himself admits, he doesn't know anything about this stuff. Like he just doesn't, he doesn't know if Donald Trump is saying is right or wrong or anything. I do like that he introduced a new form of fact checking, which is when Donald Trump says something, he's like,

I know that you just pissed a lot of people off. I mean, right. Yeah, you're smart enough to know. We're doing real time fact checking here. You have said something provocative, Mr. President. These claims can be contested. I'm certain. You know, the other thing, too, just the whole contention of having Trump on to talk about veterans, right? This is a media organization, right? Like, no matter what you think of ESPN, they do some media, they have a good political figure on. So we're going to have one guy to celebrate the veterans. And it's like, oh, you know, I know you weren't going to do it. But this is a guy whose administration has planned tens of thousands of cuts to the VA. Like he was talking about all the work that he had done for the VA. And I know this about this. My pops, I mean, I've mentioned on other things,

it's living because of the VA, because of the great work of the VA, he goes, gives a lot of medical care there and is currently living in a nursing home for veterans. And we know that they have had a lot of cuts, like just things in terms of medical services and everything else that are no longer there that were there earlier in the year, right? And because of the proposed cuts and cuts to come, they're not fully staffed anymore. And you can look up the reporting if you'd like. But I just, I mean, I'm not expecting Pat McAfee to ask that question, but it's kind of sad that, like, you're going to have a guy on to celebrate veterans and not ask about the guy who's actually impacting their life, who could do something about that stuff. And you didn't even bring it up, bro.

I got three semi-provocative questions for you. Ooh, okay. Is this Pat's fault or ESPN's fault? Both. I mean, ESPN allows it. These are your airwaves, right? Don't you think? Well, I should turn that question on you. I think it's more ESPN, though. Well, yeah, I think both is the right answer. And if you want to say ESPN, they're ultimately the ones that made the decision to put Pat on the air and gave Pat license to do whatever he wants on his show, essentially. I mean, to me, again, you and I have just, I think, been deadened a little bit to Trumpian rhetoric about, you know, emptying prisons and gang members and mental institutions. Like, those were words that were uttered on ESPN's airwaves this week.

Absolutely. That's a thing that happened on ESPN. Somebody went on there and made those claims, whether they are the president of the United States or not. He reiterated the same claims talking about election interference. Like there was an election where there was a little hanky-panky. Like he brought that up on there, man. Panky, pankey. Yeah, in 2020.

I mean, that was probably the lightest version Donald Trump has ever done on 2020, but there you go. And by the way, a lot of laughing from the set, you know, with big laughs. Oh, yeah, where it goes again. And it's a semi-provocative question number two. Has ESPN become such a series of self-contained, self-governing talk shows that Trump can go on McAfee, and that does not speak for the entire network that is ESPN? No, I think everybody, I mean, I think, and if you look at the criticism on social media, which is one way of looking at it, I mean, that's one way to tell.

but I think everybody puts this on ESPN. I mean, they are the ones, and I was there, they are the ones that said that they were not going to be mixing politics with sports. They told us that. They didn't have to say that. Oh, that was one of Jimmy Patero's big things right out of the box.

They could have been quiet, man, and just let stuff happen and just say, we're not going to respond to that and deal with things on a case-by-case basis. But they're the ones that told us the consumer, we're out of that game. We're not going to have on political figures. going to discuss politics here and yet you allow this guy because if he's on there and he was on

TV the next day so you allowed it um if you're going to allow this sort of thing to go on and you're going to have on a guy who is known for talking off the cuff and he gets to say whatever he wants then it is your fault bro and so uh yeah man i mean it does speak for ESPN they're the ones that want this to happen they allow it to happen i ask you that just because we're thinking about ESPN so differently now and they have encouraged us i think in a way to think about them differently. That it's, you know, again, it's like a lot of media companies where we've moved away from this idea that you have one set of values, one sort of, you know, almighty leader and everything trickles down through the company to an idea of everybody's got their

own podcast. Everybody's got their own space. And what happens in that space is kind of governed by us, but a lot of times not governed by us. So there's Stephen A's got one and McAfee's got one. And to a very different extent, SVP's got one and Greeny's got one. Everybody's got this little kingdom within ESPN. And again, I agree with you. Like to me, if it's on your airwaves, you own it. I'm not allowing them any distance.

But it's just funny to hear what you say where it's like, we are putting down the hammer. There is no political discourse in this network that does not relate directly to sports. Oh, also Pat McAfee gets to produce his own show. And if a little political discourse creeps into there, oh, well. And I think the thing is, is that you and I know that ESPN is different, right? That they are basically these little fiefdoms where Stephen A. Smith has his production company. Pat McAfee has his production company.

Omaha is doing stuff. The Maine brothers or whatever. They're doing their own thing. But I don't think the average consumer is sitting up there making these distinctions. This is the stuff that's showing up on ESPN network, man. Like, they're not up here like, oh, well, you know what? That's not really ESPN because that's the Eli Manning and Peyton Manning production thing. Like, that is an ESPN product.

You platformed it. So you have to own it. So, yeah, I think that, like, for us, we're, you know, I'm not saying that we're sophisticated, but we care about that stuff because we're in the media. I don't think the average person that's just watching that stuff at home is sitting there making those distinctions. All right. Semi provocative question number three.

Okay. And this is the most semi-provocative of all the questions. Was it a mistake in retrospect to put Barack Obama on the air to pick his NCAA bracket every year? Yeah, probably. I think so, too. I think so, too. And to me, it's not about mixing politics in ESPN because that doesn't bother me so much. But it's the idea of putting a politician on the air and giving them a free.

hit, right? Yeah, just doing whatever, man. It's just like, hey, we're just talking sports here. Right. And essentially relinquishing the idea that you're going to ask them real questions. Oh, yeah. About stuff that's going on. Like that, that to me is the sin. It's not the sin of, oh, we can't mix sports with politics, because we both know that you can do that and you can do it well. But this idea that, you know, we're just going to put the president on every year. He's going to pick the tournament. Here we go. Isn't it great? Like, who shouldn't have done? she has been done that. I mean, also, it is important to mention that while all that was going on, and, you know, Dan Levitard has since apologized for this, but he was giving Donald Trump a platform

in the middle of the birtherism scam, it stuff, right? Like when he, you know, when Donald Trump was insistent that President Obama was born in Kenya, he would allow him to come on his airwaves and just talk sports. Like, it wasn't always about politics. It was, you know, much like the Trump stuff you get now, He was a little bit more together because he was younger, but you get what I'm saying. And so, like, ESPN has been doing this, right? Like, it wasn't just the Obama stuff, but I could understand where, like, people would look at the Obama things. It's like, well, the practice is now that we give the president some run on our airwaves, and they can kind of say, you know, I mean, if you can push back, cool, if not, oh, well, and that's just kind of where we are now. We should tie this up by saying that the Donald Trump interview that Paul Feinbaum was denied.

had McAfee got just to square the circle there. I mean, but look, man, I mean, Farnbaum is, he's inching closer, I read in front office. Yeah, yeah. To making a decision. Nico Harrison. Oh, man. Look, Brian, you okay? I'm okay.

Yeah, I feel great. Okay. I feel absolutely great. Okay. What struck me more than any Dallas sports fandom about this is that Nico entered the one-name tier of the NBA. Like we have LeBron, we had Mello, we have Nico. Like, how did he get onto that tier? Oh, man, not a good way.

Not through his acumen, I would say. So the Mavs fired their GM, Nico Harrison on Tuesday. There are a lot of fun media elements of the story, but I think the first one is, Joel, this is one of the most pre-reported sports stories I have ever seen in my life. It's an obit. It's an it's an it's an it's an it's an it's an it's an it's an it's an obit for an octogenarian politician. The obit was in the can that the obit writer had already died by the time it was published.

I mean you know I listen to Dallas sports radio still. I try to read everything I can. Mm-hmm. More than a week ago everybody in Dallas knew that Nico Harrison's firing was imminent. And when I say everybody, I don't just mean the Mark Stein, Tim, McMahon insider tier. I mean, the guy on the sports radio show knew that Nico Harrison was about to go with absolute uncertainty.

What was their record a week ago, man? I mean, this was allegedly because they were bad. One or two wins, I think, at that point, right? I don't think they got into three yet. But I just cannot tell you. And it was so funny because I'm sitting there being like, how does everybody know? Everybody, it's not that everybody wants this thing to happen. We know that.

Right. But how does everybody know this is about? to go down. I made a few inquiries and I got one answer, which I cannot say on the air, which is an interesting vector for which this information reached everybody. Maybe we'll talk about it at a future time. I don't even know. And I don't know that's true. But everybody knew this was going down. Just know that. I mean, and it's funny because there's two ways to look at it. There's one it's like, oh, this is actually an eminent firing, right? Like it's going to happen the next few days. You need to be ready to get over to the facility because we're going to have a press conference.

And there's also the, we knew he was going to get fire at the moment this trade happened. Like from the moment, the moment we woke up, we knew that he was going to lose his job over this. We just didn't know when. Right. Like this is, I mean, by some lights, the worst sports trade since Babe Ruth got sent to the Yankees, right? Like, it's that bad. It's that bad. And it had been different if the trade had been made under duress.

But like, it ain't like Luka was itching to get out of Dallas. Like, there was nothing indicating. that this should have happened. So because of that. Yeah. And I've actually been thinking about that because, you know, we view so much of the NBA now through the lens of player empowerment. And players having more agency.

And this was sort of anti-player empowerment. Yeah. I don't like you or I think, you know, you're out of shape and you're going to get yourself injured. So not only am I going to trade you. Yeah. I'm going to trade you without you having any involvement. or sign off in the process. Right.

But we're not going to work on where to send you, right? Which is it usually happens to a star of that caliber, right? Totally. And I think that's like when we write the story of player empowerment someday, this will be one of those data points that comes three quarters or 80% of the way through the story that's like a big backlash moment, a big, uh-oh. Wait, wait, you know, I'm standing a thwart player empowerment yelling, stop. No, you don't get to do anything.

like, I'm Nico Harrison. You know who I am? Oh, wait, I've never done anything in the NBA. No, never mind. It really struck me when I was thinking about this. And you know what, Brian, let's play this clip that I had because I was listening to Inside the NBA, now on ESPN. Here we go.

And I thought this was interesting clip. That's the thing that balls me. He's had a streak of bad luck with Anthony Davis and Kyrie, both getting hurt. But the premise of this trade is Nico Harrison. I hear all these fools and idiots on TV top, Nico hasn't going to be the guy who traded Luca Dunchick. No, the Dallas Maverick organization made that call. I mean, so are we fools and idiots?

Are we wrong for thinking this is a Nico only production, or is he catching a raw deal right here? It makes me smile so much to hear Charles Berkeley use the phrase fools and idiots. I love it so much. It's good. It's great. Whatever we say about ESPN, getting inside the NBA and keeping it intact. Oh, yeah.

Hell yeah. Good job. Yeah, great touch there. Absolutely. It really is. I think there's a lot of blame to go around. I think there's Nico Harrison because I think this was his idea

and all the reporting we've had is that you came up with the idea. Like somebody had to hatch the bad idea before someone else signed off on the bad idea. That's fair. Maverick's governor, and this is just, that term is never going to roll out of my mouth smoothly.

It's not caught on. Patrick Dumont comes in for some of this because as Barclay says there, It was an organizational decision. He had to sign on. And if he had just asked one person in the basketball world, starting with former majority owner Mark Cuban, like, hey, what do you think of this?

100% of those people would have been like, absolutely not. I mean, that's the TikTok that I've just not seen, the people that were like, you're not actually going to do this, right? Like this is a catastrophically bad idea. Like this is really, actually the thing is, in my head, the way that it's supposed to work is that, you know what, man, we should trade Luca. And they'll be like, okay, man, it's time for you to go, you know, like it's time, let's get your shit and let's pack up your office. It's time for you to go. You don't deserve to work here anymore.

That's what's so miraculous. Like the story didn't leak. Yeah, man. If it leaks, if it got into the hands of an insider and like the Mavericks and the Lakers are talking about a trade, the trade would have never happened. Oh my God. Because the public backlash would have been. It was like, you know, Texas A&M trying to hire Mark Stoops. Remember to be their coach?

Oh, my God. Actually, we're going to put the brakes on them. We're going to get a good coach instead of a not good coach. That would not have happened. There's so many like examples of that. And you just, of course, it wouldn't have happened. But the thing is it existed as far as we know in total secrecy. So Mark Cuban was cut out of it.

other NBA, you know, smart NBA people that could have helped Patrick Dumont, who was a new NBA owner slash governor. Yeah. But this is the other thing, Joel, is so crazy to me, it's like, all right, Patrick Dumont is the stepson of Miriam Aedelson. They bought the Dallas Mavericks because they have real estate ambitions in the state of Texas and those real estate ambitions involve casinos, right? This is, this is why we're interested in the Dallas matter. We don't love the sport of basketball. We're not like those 90s NBA commercials. I love this game. No, that's not the game we're talking about, actually.

Not basketball is gaming. Gaming. Yeah. But just on that alone, you're like, hey, you're a business person. Would you like to trade away the player that sells one billion jerseys? It's just, yeah, I mean, again, unless Patrick Dumont is an idiot. he has to know that that even that it's just a controversial suggestion right you may not you may not disagree with Nico right you're like you know what

you're here for a reason I respect your opinion let me go talk about this with some other people let's bring some other people in and have a conversation about this and then like everybody move yeah like let's get a round table and talk about this you know and like once that happens then obviously the idea gets shut down I would have to imagine or everybody there is stupid.

And that's, I mean, I'm sorry. There's a lot of stupidity that gets you to this deal at all. I mean, I'm just going to say, I mean, that's really, that's the unfortunate thing, man. I feel really bad for that. This is one of the few times I'll feel bad for people in Dallas because this is, I mean, just a colossally stupid decision. This is why I'm looking forward so much, even more than normal jolt to the now they tell us stories about this.

Oh, yeah. I feel like we kind of got the first draft from McMahon and ESPN and from the athletic. But we really don't have them yet because the now they tell us choice bits will be Dumont, coach Jason Kidd, maybe even Mark Cuban, talking about how this was not their idea at all. I was, I don't know, tricked is the right word, but I was led to do something that should never have been done. Like I cannot wait to see them try to create airspace between, the worst trait ever and themselves. There's a lot of people we have standing invitations to interview here on this show.

Brian Kelly, if you want to come and tell us your side of the story, please come here and Nico Harrison, because is it me or are these like the most hated people in sports? Like I've not seen their version of the events of like what happened really at all. Like I guess Nico tried a little bit talking about, well, you know, look a workout like we'd like and just partying a little too much. But, like, since then, has anybody said,

hey, man, they're firing this guy after 11 games this season? Like, I just, if you're going to go through all that hell, like, don't you owe it to everybody to see, all right, like, I know Anthony Davis is hurt because he's always hurt. I know Kyrieh Irving is hurt because he's always

hurt. We did get Cooper Fleck. He's a rookie playing his first few games. Shouldn't we just, like, see this and play point out a little bit further? I don't have a point guard. Yeah. Well, yeah,

like, it's a great, like, that's what Nico wanted. Yeah. Because it was always like, once Anthony Davis gets healthy,

you've never been healthy, but once he gets healthy, and once Kyrie comes back, you will see the true majesty. But of course, Mavericks fans and Mavericks media people, too, were terrified of that scenario.

Yeah, man. Because then what if Anthony Davis comes back and plays 40 games and the Mavericks turn into like an eight seed? You know, is that, then it just kicks the can, down the road and you want to stop right now.

Like you wanted to pull and that's, you ask why now, well, the Maverich just started out these season really badly. Yeah. And that gave everyone the air cover to be like, let's do the thing we know we're going to have to do right now. I mean, I guess the three and eight, that's disappointing, but everybody is hurt. What did people expect? I guess I'm just, what?

The good thing is that there was no way that he could have screwed up the draft pick, right? Like, Cooper Flag was the, you know, unassailable number one pick. So you allowed him to make that pick, fine. But what the hell is going on here then? Man, like, that's the organization he walked into all of a sudden. And then they lose eight of 11 games and you're just like, man, we got to move on. Like, if I were Cooper Flag, it would make me even more concerned about the front office,

about how this is all unfolded because it's like, man, you all are committed to nothing. I don't know. Did you see his mom retweeting the I did see that. I mean, when people are chaining fire Nico when you're trying to, like, shoot important free throws late in the game at home. Yeah. I think Cooper Flag is like, you know what?

I did this is not about me. I did not sign up for this, but let's just let's get this out of here right now. Like whatever, whatever lies on the other side of this is better than this. I mean, I guess the thing is there's not really a good time to fire him because, like, the moment you should have fired him is when he had this idea. And then any time after that, I always. seems like a bad idea. You want to do what?

You're fired. Yeah, you're fine. Get out of here. And then like every point since then it's just like, we should fire him, but that would be dumb because I mean, we allowed him to do this. Right. So like, we've already made the mistake. You've already made the mistake.

So now way, yeah. It's a strange situation. Do you think Jason Kidd is ever going to get any of this, by the way? He's another fascinating one. And also like his job, like, you know, it's like, well, he took the Mavericks to the finals. I took is probably too strong a verb there. But he coached a Luca team to the NBA finals. So then the question is not, is Jason Kidd capable of that?

The question is, Jason Kidd, the guy you want leading a team that's rebuilding, that's about to trade every live player or injured player in the case of AD on their roster. Right. And I just, yeah, I kind of feel like Kidd is kind of, I mean, it's coming for him. He's going to get it because I just, you can, already see creeping up in the media criticism and the pieces about his way the offense looks really bad. They're like historically bad on offense this year. Those are the complaints that have been going about Jason Kidd since he's been a head coach until he had Luca Dunk. Donkent. So once

again, people are like, hey man, he doesn't know how to cook up any offense. And so yeah, like, I mean, you know, you can kind of see that out there. So Jason Kidd, this is pre-write this story. Jason kid, you're going to get fired. It's just a matter of time. All right, Joel, time for the next installment of our 25 or 25th year. All right, Joel, let's bring in one of the best in the biz. With Mike Tarrico standing at his left, Chris Collinsworth is going to be calling Lions Eagles this week on NBC Sunday night football. It's been in that chair since 2009.

He was at Fox Sports before that and had his first tour with NBC before that. It's always great to have him here. Chris, welcome back to the press box. I've been around a long damn time, haven't I? I haven't even thought about that. Houston Oilers, nobody would even know what the Houston Oilers are anymore. Oh, I know. Well, look, hey, do I have Houston Oilers?

I used to have a Houston Oilers. You may see the Earl Campbell, Josie. I got Earl. Yeah, yeah. Let's start with the Sunday night game, Chris. The Eagles are seven and two. They've got wins over the Packers, Bucks, Rams, and Chiefs. And yet a lot of people have found the 2025 version of the Eagles underwhelming.

Do you think they're underwhelming? They're inconsistent. I'll say that. Although I do think Green Bay's defense is that good. You know, they look, both defenses look really good in that game. And this offense doesn't quite have the offensive line firepower that they once had. I don't know that, well, I do know. They're not running Jalen nearly as much as they have in the past.

Maybe they're saving him for the playoffs, which is not a bit of, bad idea, right? They're going to make the playoffs. I mean, there are seven and two world champs and they're that good. But I think the biggest difference, really, for the Eagles is what they've done on the defensive side. Signing Jalen Phillips to that defense, it already helps. The Kobe Dean coming back from the injury already helps. Jihad Campbell was their first pick. Now, he's playing on the edge and playing linebacker behind it. So that helps. This team was pretty average, honestly, when we saw them on opening night against the Cowboys defensively. And then you turned around and watching me against Green Bay.

I'm like, who is that team? It was unfamiliar to me. So they've done a lot. So Dan Campbell is in his fifth year as the Lions head coach. And they've improved every year. They were 15 and 2 last year. And like right now, they look like one of those contenders again. Dan took over a play calling, which I didn't even, I didn't know, to be honest, I didn't know that was in his back.

but what do you think Dan Campbell is doing there in Detroit, which, you know, for people that have not old enough to remember, that is a franchise that has been one of the most notorious losers in the league, you know, since I've been alive. What is he doing there that other coaches could learn from or that other franchises should be looking for? I think he went with culture first. You know, I think he went in there and they practiced.

Like, to me, the teams, like we get to see practice every Friday. It's one of the great advantages. we have doing the games. And so we go in on Friday. So, of course, this week we're not because they don't practice on Friday. They practice on Saturday. But typically we go in on Friday to watch practice. And the teams that I've watched over the years, whether it's the Pittsburgh Steelers,

the New England Patriots with Belichick, you know, now the Detroit Lions of Philadelphia, those guys practice still. A lot of teams sort of sell their guys on the concept that, you know, I'm going to take care. and I'm going to give you days off. And I'm going to, and they should do that. 17 games is a lot. It's a lot of football. And then you have three or four more on the tail end of that thing.

But it's a lot of football, but they believe in practice. And I think that the teams that are there at the end of the year, I mean, think how much better you would be if you played 34 games every year, if you could survive it, right? you would be a lot better. Well, those teams have a practice that doesn't have the tackling, but has the equivalent of that on Wednesday, on Thursday, and on Friday. And so the teams that are really well coached,

whatever they are in September, they typically aren't that by the time they get to November, December, January. And, you know, Bill Belichick was the perfect example of that. He just believed that, hey, I'm going to get out there. And I said, like, why is it you guys are always two and two in September? And you're in the Super Bowl at the end of the year. And they practice so many different looks on defense and on offense that it didn't look good in the beginning because they were, they did too much, right? If you were getting right for one game, that's too much.

Overload, yeah. But if you do it over and over, by the time. you get to December and you get stuck against that one opponent and you don't know what to do against this new Ravens look. Well, they can dig into their bag of tricks and go back and go, remember when we played the Raiders in week three and they hit us with that look and they can call on that? And you got somebody like Brady and you can call on that. Aaron Rogers can remember that. And so I think that's the magic of it is that there is no magic. The magic is that certain teams work hard, they study hard, and they're ready.

Chris, I want to ask you about Bob Trumpy, who died earlier this month. If people don't remember Bob Trumpy, he was a longtime TV analyst who called the first two Cowboys Super Bowls in the 90s. You and he had nearly parallel careers. Both played for the Bengals, both hosted the same talk show in Sensi, both later called Super Bowls for NBC. Would you learn about broadcasting from Bob Trumpy? A, he was the toughest nut you ever heard on the air.

I mean, you're talking about no fear. He would lay it out there for you, you know, and he developed a real following. Now, a lot of times, to be honest, he would kind of protect the players at the expense of management in Cincinnati. And talk radio is really a local art, you know, in many ways. It's hard to do national issues. But he would beat up the poor Reds and Mardshot and Biodshot and Biod. and Paul Brown and, you know, but it was like people picked up the phone and called. Like his phone lines were always small.

And then after a while, he went on to NBC full time and became the number one team there. And they hired me. I had just gotten cut and they hired me to come in and sort of take his place. And you don't know what lonely feels like until you're sitting in a studio with a phone bank that has no callers, nobody seems to care. And you're trying to stir up something that people want to make your phone lines

light up. And it's just awful. So I'm in there, man, I'm yelling and screaming and throwing stuff. I'm doing anything I can to kind of stir the pot and be Bob Trump, you know. And so when I went on NBC in the beginning, people literally thought I was nuts. Like, I was

just say anything because I was used to talk radio. And then they said, well, he's too crazy for the games. Let's put them in the studio. So they liked me in the studio. So that worked out better. And then they put me on Notre Dame and then Notre Dame didn't like me. Then both my kids went to Notre Dame and Austin played football there.

So like I have this love, hate thing going beyond years of different things. But Bob was, you know, he did the talk show that he created from scratch, got all the sponsors, raised all the money. I was a parasite on that. He went to college football at NBC. see. I followed that. Went to the NFL. I followed that. And, you know, it was, it was an amazing journey to have somebody that you knew personally that was also a receiver, even though he was a tight-in, but four times pro-bowler. And I'll bet you 15 people couldn't tell you Bob Trump, he played tight-in and was all pro for the Cincinnati Bengals, right? I mean, we're all just sort of

yesterday's news in many ways. But he was a great friend. a great family man, but he was tough. That's what I remember. He was tough on the field and behind the microphone. So, Chris, in terms of the talk radio approach, right? Because you said you got your start there. And I've always sort of wondered this because you said you got on there and you're just saying things, right? And you're just trying to stir things up.

Are you saying things that you believed and that you just took the argument to like the umpteenth level, like just a little bit, you know, put a little hot sauce on it? Or were you, you know, just trying to, you know, trying to stir the pot and just, I'll say whatever it takes to get people to call in? A little bit of both. I'll be honest with you. You know, there were moments that I deeply regret when some of that was true when I was trying to create a show. But there are moments that I really treasure too. Like I, so Bobby Knight was next town over, right? In Indiana, like, stayed over. And there was a time in which you probably remember it where supposedly, you know,

he kicked his own son on the bench, right? He did the thing where he threw the chair and he did the thing. So he was a constant topic. And so this thing came up where he kicked his own son. Before I even get in the studio, the phone lines are lit up. Like everybody wants to fire Bobby Knight, right? And so I like Bobby Knight. So I'm like, all right, what am I going to do with this?

And so it comes in and I said, I go, okay, I go, we're not doing the news tonight. We're not doing anything. We're getting right to the topic. I got the phone lines all lit up. Everybody wants to talk about firing Bobby Knight. And I said, I want you to know, I'm going to back you guys completely. As a matter of fact, I'm going to work to fire Bobby Knight. At the end of this show, anybody out there can point to one guy that spent four years playing or coaching for Bobby Knight that is currently in jail, beat up his wife, selling drugs, anything that he's a menace to society.

Now, they may not have won every national championship, but if you, can say one guy that played four years for Bobby Knight that currently is a menace through society and I'm going to lead the way we're going to get rid of Bobby Knight. So the phones kind of, all those lights went out and I was like, crap, I just killed the show. And then they started lighting up again and it turned into the biggest love affair of Bobby Knight you've ever seen, right? So that was good. Another show in the books. And, you know, I'm moving on to the next night. Get in to do show the next night and I get a telephone call. This is so-and-so from the S-I-D at Indiana University. And Bobby heard about what you did on the show last night and he'd like to know if you'd like

to have him as a guest on the show tonight. And I said, well, you know, let me check to see. I'm like, I got a fiery night on the phone, you know. And I go, yeah, yeah, I think we can squeeze them in here, you'll probably make that work. It was unbelievable. Like back to back, it had to be the highest ratings I ever had in my whole life. To give you an honest answer, though, the flip side of that, Tom Browning, who I love, I've made up with him since, Tom Browning was, the Reds were in the middle of a not-so-good year.

And Browning was on the bench or in the bullpen, who's a starting pitcher. So, you know, and so the Reds are just getting hammered every night. So he does the thing where they go to Chicago, and he's sitting on the roof on the deck across the way, right? Wickedly funny. Brilliant. It's so baseball-ish. You know, the game didn't matter.

And he made a reason for people to have a laugh and enjoy it. So I took after Tom. Oh, man. Friggin strictly to make a show. It was a show, man. People were after my ass pretty good. And I was sticking to it. But then I had to go into Reds locker rooms.

I would do interviews and I do stuff in there. And I'll never forget the feeling of no one that was what I did was wrong, you know, just wrong. And it wasn't like I went through journalism school or anything. It was stupid. And so many moons later, it wasn't many moons later. I saw them not too long ago after that. I just said, you know, I'm a jerk. I'm a total jerk and I apologize and I was wrong and da-da-da and you know he was the greatest

guy in the world which makes you feel even worse right immediately forgives you and we started playing golf together and all these different things but that was a really good one for me to learn you got to go back in there and face those guys and it's one of the things that I still to this stay try to do like i own pfp and they do the grades and every once in a while some 300 pound monster will come walking over towards me and i'm like what's his pff great i'm like am i going to die here i don't know i don't know what's going to happen but yeah it was it was it was as close to journalism school as i've ever come to have that bad an experience with somebody who's a great guy Chris, I mentioned Mike Tariko.

You, of course, worked with Al Michaels before that. What does Tariko bring out of you in a broadcast as different than what Michael's brought out of you? I think they're different people. I really do. Like, Al is, you know, he's sort of the, he's funny in a way that, but it's kind of snarky, funny. Like, you know what I mean? He's, like, just waits for opportunities. and he'll say something a little, you know,

it used to be the gambling stuff, and now even that's okay. But he always found little things. And then as soon as he would do it, he would look at me and I would do everything I could not to laugh. Like, dude, you're going to get kicked out of this job. Not me. I am not, but I'm like literally hitting the button

that keeps you from, you know, the cough button so people can't hear. So he just makes you giggle and laugh. And, you know, but he's so, he's kind of understanding. until that moment. And then he, you know, kind of goes. So then I sort of become a little bit more of the energy, I think. And, you know, hey, you know, this play, you know, whatever. And then Mike is very enthusiastic.

You know, his voice naturally, even when you're just out having dinner with him, is much more up and much more. That's just who he is, you know. He's like that guy. Brilliant. They're both smart as hell. It's unbelievable. how smart their memory and what they can recall and all that stuff.

And I always tell them, I used to get hit in the head for a living. So I'm not in that contest with you guys. We're not doing that. But Mike brings that energy. And I think it's why he's in demand from the Olympics to NBA to football to whatever it is. Like he's in demand. They want him on everything, right? He's the voice in the face of NBC now.

And he's great at all of it. but I think when I was shifting from Al to Mike, I was kind of like, when we're both trying to do high energy stuff, it kind of sounds silly, right? So then I was like, I should just come down a little bit and be me like on a normal basis where I am

and let him be what he normally is. And so I think that helped, you know, both of us in some way, you know? But hit some of his calls, like there was a playoff game. where they returned a fumble against the Ravens, the Bengals did for a touchdown. And the call was literally so perfect.

Sam Hubbard's the one that picks it up. And he's running 98 yards for this touchdown. And he's telling Sam Hubbard's life stories. He's running down the field. And it was just a perfect call. Perfect call. And I'm sitting there and I go, I'm not going to say a word. Like every once in a while, you just hear something that,

should just stand alone. And then Drew Esikoff, our great director, started taking crowd shots of people losing their minds. And then afterwards, I had one lady said to me, she goes, why do you hate the Bengals? And I go, oh, God, you get this question. I get this question every day from every fan base. And I, you know, I'm like, I don't hate the Bengals.

It's my job to critique them. And da, da, da, da, da, da, da. And she goes, I know you hate the Bengals. And I go, okay, why do I hate the Bengals? because you never once have yelled who day after they scored a touchdown. Even, you're like, you got me there. You're right. I've never yelled Hu-Day

after one of their touchdowns. So, yeah, you're right. I'm glad that you mentioned the PFF thing because I don't know how well-known it is that you are the owner of PFF. And obviously, it's like been in the news recently because a lot of players have complained about like the grading system, right, about PFF. So I know that you've pushed back on that,

but what do you think is the fair? criticism of PFF. Do you think they have any points related to that? Of course. I mean, I don't care what kind of grading system you have. People are going to complain about it, right? I mean, I got that. You're rank ordering people. And so it all started with the draft. Like, we would go, okay, we're going to list from one to 300. The draft choices. Makes sense. Everybody does it. Nobody seems to care. It's all. And, well, we have the same data on every college football player. We can do it by team. We can do it by position. We can do it, you know, whatever you want, which is great. But then when you start to do it for

NFL players and they're putting it on television, now they're mad, right? So now JJ Watt is, he was almost destroyed our grading system by himself. So our grading system is only by position, only by position. So when he was an edge player, you would only be ranked against other edge players. Well, he was so much better than everybody else.

99 was as high as we could go on the grading scale, right? So he's the 99. And now in order for it to be fair with the gap with him and with Aaron Donald, that means four all pro defensive edge players

have to be in the 80s. That's the only way it's fair. So now I'm taking these all pros, and I'm giving them an 80 grade. And they're like, I remember school, an 80 grade was a B. And I'm not a beat. And so now they're ranked second, third, and fourth on the list of the best players at their position. And they're mad because they're an eight. But there was that big a gap between the next one.

And that was just being fair. And then I can't believe out of the same family. Now, TJ is mad because there's Miles Garrett and there's, you know, Crosby and, you know, all these other guys that are really good players. Well, I think the year he led in Sacks in our system, which includes run tackling, you know, it includes setting the edge. It includes if you dropped an interception, it includes, you know, some guy blocks you on a play. And all that goes into the pot. Then there's only one grade. was third or fourth and that thing.

So now the guy who we helped put in a Hall of Fame and JJ is taken after me on McAfee's show and with how bad our grades are. And I'm like, dude, I never heard you complain. I'm not greatest player on God's Green Earth, but he's sticking up for his brother. And honestly, I felt badly too. I mean, I'm sitting there watching TJ and he's playing his brains out. And we've got him third or fourth.

I'm like, oh, fucking is me. And I'm in there every other week with Pittsburgh playing as good as they have. So, yeah, I mean, but I dare anybody else to do what we've attempted to do, which is put all the NFL players in rank order at their position. Somebody ends up on the bottom. And those are professional athletes. So, yeah, I mean, it's crazy. But it really helps.

And it's really created, honestly, to study film. So we have somebody who, 100,000. 60 different data points on every player in every game. And the NFL, college football, Canadian football league, every game. So if you have a cousin that's chased one kick for TCU, we have a grade on that guy, right? Think about the expense and the cost of what that takes to try to do. But because we have that, it's like a Google search on there for us. So, all right, I want to see all the back shoulder throws from Aaron,

Rogers, the Jordie Nelson, with under two minutes to go in the second or fourth quarter in games not played on Sunday. Bo, bo, bo, bo, bo. There's the seven plays that that pertains to, right? So that's really, it's a study tool for the thing. But, you know, then we got into grades and just decided to see how many people on the face of the earth I could have hate me other than the great Tom Brown. Chris, you guys do pregame production meetings on NBC with the players and coaches, and people in the industry will always tell me that there are certain guys who are really informative, who are really eager to help you call a game? Who are your production meeting MVP's over the years? I think Peyton Manning was the best.

He enjoyed the process. You had to be careful with him. He was a little sneaky. He would try to get some information out of you, too. Right? because he knew we had already talked to the other team and the other guys. And so, you know, we can't do that. You know, you can't do that.

And so I would just laugh at him every once in a while. And then he'd tell me a little more. And then he prod for another little bit of information over there. But it was smart. And coordinators sometimes are great. And I tell them all the time, I go, look, I'm trying to make you look smart. The problem is I don't always see this C. secret sauce that you're inserting into your game plan.

I could miss it, or you could give me a little heads up, that it's coming along, and then I can point out that you're brilliant on, so some of them do, some of them don't, but usually it was, it would be the players that, Cam Hayward's always great, you know, to help you understand the line play. I'm trying to think of some other guys. guys that were just, you know, and some of them are just hilarious.

Brent Far, hilarious. Like, he wasn't giving you exes and owes, but he's telling you about Uncle Rube back in the day. And, you know, it's like stories that you could only possibly imagine. But it doesn't matter to me. It's like, so one of the questions I ask all the time is, all right, when did you know that you were a little different than the other kids on the playground. Right?

So now I'm not asking for any strategy, but I'm saying, all right, what day was it that you dunked in sixth grade and everybody went crazy? What day was it that you did a backflip after you scored a goal in soccer? What day was?

Like, when did you know you were different? And only, and almost always they come up with some brilliant bit that came out at some recess of their brain when they were nine years old, 10 years old, that is just gold, you know, because we always are trying to take the helmets off the guys. And while we want to be smart with the football commentary and all that, you know, we tend to look at our prime time slot as being a little different than Sunday afternoon maybe. I always picture Sunday nights, at least in my house. It was, we're all watching one TV, which is weird in today's world. But it's, you know, it was mom, dad, sons, daughters, grandma, right?

And I always wanted to do something about once a quarter that was interesting to grandma. Even if she hated football, like, what would be a good story for grandma? And so we try to be this big, huge net of stories, some football, some not football, but things that people can relate to. So when they're watching the game, they care. Like my wife will say, I want to turn on a game. And she said, why should I care? And I go, I go, you're right.

That's the job. That's our job. I'm supposed to make you care. And sometimes I do. Sometimes I don't. That's what we try. Well, who's the person in those meetings you thought could have been great but never did it? They never went on to become an announcer.

That's interesting. The biggest one in today's world is Mike Tomlin. Mike Tomlin in my book could be anything in the league he wanted to be. I mean, this dude strikes a chord with every human being that is with him. And if you've never been in the room with this guy, he is the word smith of word Smiths. I mean, the things that come out of his mouth, I just said, we just write them down. We have graphics. We don't always do them, but we have graphics of things that he said to us over the year. And you go, this guy's so smart, it's unbelievable. And his players relate to him

in a way that's amazing. Like every once in a while, people in Pittsburgh will get stirred up. You know, he hasn't won this and he hasn't won that and whatever. I'm like, don't mess this up. I said, you guys get rid of Mike Tomlin, there's going to be at least 20 teams immediately in negotiations with them. And another five, they're going to think about firing their head coach so they can get in on negotiations with him. And another seven that he's going to have to beat to win the Super Bowl. And he's going to make your team that good right away. So, yeah, I think he's the one. Sean McBay is pretty amazing too.

I'm that dude. he's got an energy that you can't turn off the switch. And he relates to the players. And I remember the whole conversation with his players early on. It's like, man, coach texted me. I never had a coach text me before. And he's like 31 when he got the head job. And he would be like, why wouldn't I text him?

Like he didn't even get why that was a deal. But most coaches were like, you know, 50s, 60s, you know. All right, Chris, before we get out of here, Joel's got a very quick lightning round for you. You want to hit him with it, Joel? All right, that's right. Yeah, we're going to do the lightning round. What's one question you would like Mike Tariko to ask Michael Jordan? Oh, I would like to know how does he get away with playing 36 holes of golf every day

and then going home to his wife and saying, honey, I just got finished with work. Where do you want to go to for dinner tonight? That's his life right there. He is a master. That would be my opening question. The player, a coach you remember being most nervous to meet? Well, Forrest Gregg was my head coach, my first head coach.

And I mean, I have a pretty big hand, you know, six four, a pretty big hand. And the first time I shook that guy's hand. I mean, it looked like I was a four-year-old going in. and shaking hands with one of the NBA centers, right? I was like, I so badly wanted to do it again. Like he had like my entire hand, and there was no, I had nothing to squeeze at all. And I just remember going, I mean, literally,

if he was coming down a whole way one way and I was going the other, I would just like a salmon. I'd just turn around and go upstream again. I didn't want to cross him in a hallway. I didn't want him. And man, when he was, when he was mad, it scared you to death. But at one time, it was one of my highlights in my entire career. I can't remember why it was.

But I actually do remember why it was. So I had a game. I had like 200 yards receiving. We lost to the Colts. And anyway, so we were sitting there. And I was just so down in the dumps because I had one of those plays. I was diving for a ball. my hands are on the ground and it just bounced off my hands and there was nothing for me to catch it

with it was like time so perfectly bounce up in here and somebody intercept but other than that play i'm like baking plays all over and so and i'm i'm hot at the end of the game and so they have to punt and then we got to block the punt to do it and i was like put me in there i'll block that punt and forest looked around and sent me in there and the guy crushed me on a blind guy so the next day in the films my teammates are just making so much fun of me i mean just abusing me like you can't imagine and so he comes in there and he goes because you guys are right i was stupid he was stupid but if the rest of you guys practiced and played like chris collinsworth we'd never lose a game or something like that and it was the all-time moment for me because i you know he's played for

Ben Zimbledi and he scared the hell out of me. And it was just like a one-off line, but Pro Bowls, whatever, that one met the most. I love that. Former SMU coach, too, by the way. Favorite place to call a game? The old stadiums are great. I mean, Green Bay, Chicago, you know, those places are great. I still have to say Dallas.

Brian, so. happy look at uh yeah it's such a great place and they they they always the jones family you may not like them whatever but they're tremendous hosts they treat people right they take time with you you know when the micah parsons trade happened before week one we asked for jerry we got them it was a 30 minute really open honest discussion like they get everything from our point of view and trying to do the game fairly. And the stadium's incredible. I mean, the only problem now is they have to put up the big, the TV around the field

is so bright. They can't do our on cameras because the lights are so bright coming in. So they got to put like a big park. So we're like a horse with blinders on running in the derby. We can't see the screen. And everyone's why I like to duck under and look up at that thing. But yeah. Just the last couple here.

There's a talk radio guy from Cincinnati nonetheless. Is it time to put Pete Rose in the Hall of Fame? You don't know how much I love Pete Rose. Pete Rose was a good friend. And I would hope that it is. I mean, it's, okay. What greater punishment? So you have to punish Pete Rose.

And I understand that. and you kept them out of the Hall of Fame, which is all he really cared about at the end of it until his dying days. But let's be serious. You're talking about a guy that was baseball. He lived baseball. He loved baseball.

He would have never been against his team. He never thought his team could possibly lose. And he knew more about my career than I did. When I get around him, he would spit out stats and he would spit out things about my career and he'd talk about football now of course he might have had a wager or two on the games you know that we're out there but so he had a reason to study it I always said the greatest talk radio guy ever heard was peter ruggis because he knew he knew about everything about every sport about everything but he had such a passion for everything

for baseball for football for life for Cincinnati for people I don't I think everybody in Cincinnati has a Pete Rose autograph something. He would stop and sign anything, anywhere for anybody. Yeah, I'm really excited that they're talking about putting them in the whole man now. So, yeah. Final question. As a former Florida Gator Great, they've got an open head coaching position now.

Who would you like to see to be the next head coach at the University of Florida? Can I get Steve Spurrier again? I don't think he would do it. Everything Steve Sparrier has ever touched at the University of Florida turned to gold. He was the Heisman trophy winner, a game-winning field goals. He was two-time national champion. He was your receivers coach, too, right? He was the one actually that is probably the reason you're talking to me right now.

So I was a quarterback. I was recruited as a quarterback, wishbone quarterback, option quarterback, which is what most of the colleges in the country were playing. playing then, got recruited all over the country, went to Bear Bryant's house, went to USC, went everywhere. So I played some as a freshman. And then I went in the spring game. Steve came in to be the offensive coordinator my second year.

So he was my quarterback coach and offensive coordinator. But he put in the strutback passing game. I'm like, uh, this is probably not going to go too well. I go 0 for 11 with two interceptions at the spring game. The next day I'm a wide receiver. And I ever played receiver before my life, have no idea. And my dad calls and said, do you want to transfer? You can go somewhere.

You know, all these teams are calling me wanting you to come transfer now. I was like, no, no, no. I said I wanted to go to Florida. I'm going to stay here. I'll figure something out with this receiver. But there's no question. I would have never been an NFL quarterback. Never.

It just wouldn't happen. And got to be a receiver, a guy named Lee. McGriff was a three-time All-S-C receiver, who was my coach, taught me how to do all this stuff. And then three years time, I get drafted in the second round to go play for Cincinnati, and we go to the Super Bowl my first year. And I remember at the end of the year going, the odds of this ever happening are like zero. Like, there is no way that all those things had to happen. And then if I extrapolated out even more, I go,

And I met my wife here. I would never have the four kids I have. I wouldn't have the family and friend connections in Cincinnati and Kentucky and Florida. It's like draft day. You know, when you get drafted, like all 32 teams in another round, like I could have moved like all 32 places. Like it's the weirdest day ever, right? You just, and I think back to Steve Spurier coming in. I'm going, and now I'm advocating for the guy when I should have been mad because he fired me within a week of taking the top out of my position.

But, yeah, he's the greatest. I love Steve. That is awesome. All right. Check out Chris Collinsworth this Sunday night and every Sunday on NBC all the way through the Super Bowl this year. Chris, thanks for coming on the press box. Guys, it was really fun. Thanks for having.

All right, back with Brian and Joel. Before we go, I want to take you to a place where the word shut up. down is only used to describe cornerbacks. Ladies and gentlemen, let's go to J-School. Welcome back to J-School. Brian. Do you know what I used to say when I was a safety on the JV team, sophomore back in Houston? What's that?

Water covers two-thirds of the earth. I cover the rest. That's pretty awesome. We were really good. I think that JV team, did we go undefeated? I think we went undefeated that year. We're really good. That's my first year straight.

Anyway, yeah, pretty good team. Uh, anyway, you know, Brian, I couldn't help a note. You know, I listened to the show. Of course, I'm a big fan. On Monday, you started the show with an update on the, as you called it, the latest nice man who's running for U.S. Senate in Texas or Beto 2.0. Uh, and you're definitely not talking about Colin Allred. You know, we can talk more about that later.

But it was by James Talleyico, right, who's currently in the Texas house. And you were referring to a recent report, uh, from Axios on Tala Rico, which uncovered that he follows several adult film performers, escorts, and only fan models on Instagram. The American Everyman, if I've ever heard of one, you know. But Axios' justification for turning this into a scoop is because Tilarico, quote, and this is from the story, has become a sensation in Texas politics by talking about how Christianity is the basis for his democratic politics.

it's kind of weird because I guess the conflict here is supposed to be apparent that you help me if this is it Brian or maybe I'm wrong the man has been talking about his faith since he's been in the public spotlight and sort of trying to reestablish Democrats claim to upholding Christian values through their politics that like they didn't forfeit that ground to Republicans but the conflict is that he follows some and this is a word that they would use not me some nasty girls on the internet right that he's a hippo or a secret perv. Is that what's going on here? The story was missing a nut graph, but to the extent that there is a nut graph, it is, yes, it is seminarian follows people like this on Instagram.

I mean, first of all, 10 people, given who he is. I mean, that's not very many people in the whole scheme of things, but okay, whatever. So the reporter behind this expose is Alex Thompson, and he's, people may remember him. He's the, I mean, he's a national political correspondent at Axios, but he's also the co-author of originals, and he wrote that with Jake Tapper, and that was the book that went into the alleged cover-up of President Biden's decline while he was in office. And depending on your politics, of course, you either think that was like a bold and important piece of investigator journalism or just like some tabloid conjecture told via dozens of unnamed sources. So Thompson is constantly reporting and writing about politics. I don't want to imply that this is representative of his larger body of work, which I assume. and no way to glance is impressive.

But a Tala RICO campaign spokesperson responded to Axios, and he said, while James was unaware of how these women make money, he does not judge them for it and will not play into an effort to smear them for clickbait articles. That's exactly what his Christian faith calls them to do. And you know what? Right. I know we talked about this offline the other day. You know what it reminded me of something from when I was at BuzzFeed, man.

And it was when my colleagues reported something. very similar and it was about Cory Booker. So rewind to September 2013, man, remember 2013? That was not a bad time, man. I mean, I guess we had come out of the housing crisis or whatever. Different world. It was a different world, certainly in media too. And so BuzzFeed has just become a good thing. I've only been working there a month. And then my colleague publishes a story headline NSFW, which is not suitable for work. Corey Booker's interesting tweets with a Portland show. stripper. And the story was about how a then Portland-based stripper, Lindsay Lee, had been DMing back and forth with Cory Booker, who was then the mayor of Newark, New Jersey, and a Senate

candidate, but he was not yet a senator. And so if you go, you can Google this piece up if you'd like, it's still online. This glorified listicle even has three pictures of Lindsay Lee's breast in the body of the story, which I was kind of surprised. Maybe I just didn't internalize it at the time, or maybe, you know, I'm an old dad now, and so I'm a little bit more scandalized by it. But the story implied, it was implied that this was a scandal because they'd had a few flirtatious interactions on Twitter and shared a couple of DMs, nothing crazy. And the Booker campaign responded that I think it's pretty well known that the mayor talks with people from all walks of life on Twitter, so on and so forth. And so as I was looking up this old story, right,

And I was just like, man, why did BuzzFeed do this? Like, why would, you know, that is kind of weird. Like, why will we be prudes about this? Who would want this story out? And then I was like, oh, shit, I looked at the byline. Benny Johnson, who was then a 26-year-old staff writer, my former colleague who prior to that was famous to me for doing peace honoring Martin Luther King Day by saying he was eating fried chicken. But if you don't know who Benny Johnson is today, consider yourself lucky.

But he's a well-known far-right commentator who was once the chief creative officer at Turning Point USA, which people know is the Charlie Kirk organization. And so he's had an interesting career. You can look it up. Allegations of plagiarism. Yeah. Reportedly taking money from Russian state media to influence the country. But that's sort of what brings me back to this Thompson scoop, right? And as we discussed earlier about from Michael Wolf to the Nico Harris,

segment, it's always worth wondering why you're reading a story and who's the person behind it, right? And I know that a lot of journalists, and I wanted to believe in like the idea of journalistic objectivity, that people don't come into this. We just call balls and strikes, right? We're not, you know, making it up as we go along. We're not playing favorites. But just remember that everyday editors and reporters are making decisions about what stories to pursue, right? And which stories to ignore, right? There's a lot going on. America right now. And Axios was excited to tell you about James Talariko's Instagram follows because it's supposed to say something about him and the kind of person he is and the kind of

people he associates with. But I like to turn that on its head. I want to know more about Axios and Alexeos and the people you all associate with. Why did you guys think that this was a story? Like why were you looking for that? Like why was that an Axios review? And And, you know, look, without moralizing too much, we're in a world where our current president who has been prosecuted and convicted of crimes related to having an affair with a porn star, a dude was accused in court of having unprotected sex with a porn star while he was married, okay? And where that same president is currently the subject of reporting suggesting he's friends with one of the world's most notorious pedophiles.

just a curious choice Alex Thompson and Axios Open invitation Like we're giving out open invitations over here now So if you want to talk about it, great That's all I'm saying And Brian Kelly Who do you think will be the first one

To come on the podcast Man, Alex has been on before So I think we'll probably have a better chance with him Okay, well with Brian Kelly then I gotta aim high and Allison Get on it. Brian Kelly He is Joel Anderson I'm Brian Curtis

Provexia Magic By Bruce Baldwin we humbly invite you to follow us. That is us, that is the press box. Over on Instagram, we are at Pressbox Ringer. And let me tell you some of the stuff you could have gotten if you'd followed us on Instagram this week. You could have found out the rundown for this podcast before you and I even taped it.

That's right. I wrote it down. I was really surprised that you did that, your handwriting too. You know how I still left from Bob Stern, the radio host in Dallas used to do that for the rundown every day? Oh, Sturm. Okay, that's what's going to post the rundown up there. So if you want to know what's coming up on the show,

you could have seen the cover of Patrick Radden-Keefe's new book. You like Patrick Radden-Keefe? You like Say Nothing? Just got the galley of his new book. That's up there. Tip you off about stuff like that coming out. You could have, and this goes down the list a little bit, but seeing the four ancient Los Angeles mirror newspaper signs that I bought this week,

last week, which used to be the Dorn City buses here in Los Angeles. I bought them because I thought they were. really cool. Anyway, I posted those at Pressbox Ringer on Instagram. Membership has its privileges, Joel. And you get to see us, too. That's also the other benefit. Well, there's that as well. All right, David's back on Monday.

Joel next Thursday, can't wait to share more lukewarm takes about the media with you. I can't wait either, brother.