The Press Box - The No-Attack Democratic Debate | The Press Box

Episode Date: November 21, 2019

Bryan Curtis and David Shoemaker break down the fifth Democratic debate and the performances of Pete Buttigieg, Elizabeth Warren, and Joe Biden. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys, and welcome to The Ringer Podcast Network. Binge Mode made its grand return earlier this month, and Mallory Rubin and Jason Concepcion are deep diving on the Star Wars franchise, covering every movie, the newly released Disney Plus series The Mandalorian, and fan favorite characters. You can check out new episodes every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, wherever you get your podcasts. And up on the site, we have more Mandalorian coverage written by Micah Peters, Alison Herman, and Ben Lindberg, as well as staff-wide surveys throughout the season.

You can check it all out on The Ringer.com. Hello media consumers, Brian Curtis and David Shoemaker of the Ringer here with your instant reaction to the November Democratic debate. David, this reminded me of a baseball game that was one to one going into the eighth inning. And there were a couple of solo homers to close it out. But that just served to underline how little action there was throughout the rest of the game. The front runners for the Democratic nomination really weren't challenged tonight. case in point Pete Buttigieg, a frontrunner in the early states, really had to weather only a late and slightly weird foreign policy encounter

with Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard. Let's listen. It does not qualify us to serve as commander-in-chief. I think the most recent example of your inexperience in national security and foreign policy came from your recent careless statement about how you as president be willing to send our troops to Mexico, to fight the cartels. As Commander-in-Chief, leader of our armed forces, I bring extensive experience serving for seven years in Congress on the Foreign Affairs Committee, on the Armed Services Committee,

on the Homeland Security Committee, meeting with leaders of countries around the world, working with military commanders of different commands, dealing with high-level national security briefings, understanding what's necessary, the preparation that I've gotten to walk in on day one to serve as Commander-in-Chief. So I've got to respond to. I know that it's par for the course in Washington to take remarks out of context, but that is outlandish, even by the standards of today's politics. Are you saying that you didn't say that?

I was talking about U.S.-Mexico cooperation. We've been doing security cooperation with Mexico for years, with law enforcement cooperation and a military relationship that could continue to be developed with training relationships, for example. Do you seriously think anybody on this stage is proposing invading Mexico? That's not what I said.

There's a great line by the writer Ben Jacobs about invading Mexico. This isn't James K. Polk's Democratic Party anymore. That's good stuff. Can we agree, David, that if you told Pete Buttigieg he would be attacked, basically once tonight and it would be by Tulsi Gabbard about invading Mexico that he would have absolutely taken that deal in a debate that was kind of supposed to be about him?

Yeah, I think he probably would have taken that. Although, I mean, his reaction to Gabbard's comments was, I mean, you could tell his feathers were ruffled. Maybe it was just such a, I mean, the accusation was just like so out of left field that he was, you know, slightly caught off guard. I think after the, I think, and maybe he was just lolled in the complacency by what was overall a pretty, uh, amiable debate. The last act, like you said, turned, turn, you know, I mean, had it's, it was about as combative as, as it could have, I mean, as, as, is anything else in the night. I mean, I mean, I think it sort of turned, uh, when the conversation turned to race. Um, but it wasn't just specifically about that.

There are a lot of issues that sort of popped up and I feel like a lot of people were trying to get in their, get in their last shots. But yeah, I think that the, you know, I think that Budajid, for the most part, came out, you know, pretty clean. I'm not sure. I mean, his performance was assured. His performance was confident. It certainly wasn't as kind of offensively moderate as he has been. He wasn't the last debate. But substance-wise, I mean, it just kind of felt like,

lot of just second-rate Obama-stick to me. I mean, I was I was not that compelled by the guy. Tad friend of the New Yorker's line was Mayor Pete slinging some excellent Frank Capra shit in here. So that which actually may be the same thing as you're talking about with second-rate Obama shit. I just thought he did a great job of doing exactly what he wanted to do, which is lean into his inexperience by saying you people are fighting in Capitol Hill. He had that whole bit how he's the least wealthy candidate on stage about how he doesn't play golf. He had that line late in the debate about over 100 years of government service on the stage and look where we are. Of course, that 100 years of government service is not actually running the White House at this moment. Constantly talking about unifying the American people.

But, you know, this is a debate that comes when, according to that recent Des Moines Register CNN poll, he's up nine in Iowa. According to St. Anselm, poll up 10 in New Hampshire. Now, even if you, you know, doubt those two polls, this was supposed to be this kind of Buddha judgment day where we were going to see, just like we saw with Warren last time, how he could stand up to attacks. I thought he did a good job of standing up when he had to, but he really didn't have to stand up to many. He had this one point where he had an answer on military spending. Everyone's dying to get in and MSNBC goes to commercial. Another time where one of the moderators set up Kamala Harris to talk about

Buddha judge and race a really interesting topic. She had criticized him earlier for using that stock photo on his Douglas plan of the woman from Kenya. She declined to renew her criticism. And he was able to give this big soaring answer that was exactly the answer. he wanted to give about black voters getting to know him. So like I said, it just felt like if everybody's staying in their lanes and nobody's attacking the front runners, the front runners are probably still going to be the front runners at the

end of the night, are they not? I think that's, I think that's exactly right. You know, I think that if you were inclined to vote for Pete Buttigieg, or even if he was, you know, if he's, if he's a potential, if he potentially get your vote. I'm sure that a lot of what he said, you know, I'm specifically thinking of the black voters comment that you just mentioned. I'm sure a lot of that stuff was compelling to you. You know, you could, and you could see a lot of that on social media. I mean, I saw a lot more people who were, if not anti-Booted judge than, you know, plainly pro Harris or pro-Booker who were

just sort of gaffing at everything that Mayor Pete said. Again, I think that staying in your, staying in lane, saying in one's lane is, I think, the right metaphor tonight, because everybody just sort of, I mean, there were a lot of great performances. Kamala Harris gave a commanding performance when she was, you know, when she spoke almost across the board. Cory Booker did a great job. A lot of the, you know, the kind of second tier of candidates had their best nights. Amy Klobuchar did really well. But the, but I think overall, I think you asked the right question. Is it going to move the needle. I mean, it's kind of hard to imagine that after, I mean, a night as great as, as Senator Harris had, that, you know, it's hard to imagine her jumping 10 points in the Iowa

polls. We'll see. We'll see. But it did seem like the lack of combat, the lack, I mean, I think overall, I'll say this. I enjoyed this debate. I think that the debate really, really benefited from from the hosts giving the candidates the opportunity to agree and not picking not picking you know

minor fights but you know not finding minor points of disagreement just for the sake of of you know drumming up you know memes or YouTube clips for later on giving the candidates the opportunity to agree led to some really interesting and profound moments. But I think as to the bigger, more meta question,

everybody was able to stay in their lane because of that. And I'm not sure how much, how much, you know, tomorrow is going to look different than today. Can I propose another theory too? I think some of the lack of angst was moderator driven for sure. I think another part of it maybe subconsciously is the fact that this really felt like a sideshow next to this incredible impeachment hearing that's going on in Washington. right now. You know, it was easy to forget during the course of today that this debate was actually

still happening. When you had the testimony of Gordon Sondland today, yesterday you had the testimony of you better call him Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman. And it just felt like that was a weird backdrop to then turn around to the Democrat next to you and go in on Medicare for all. it just felt like tonally that was just a weird, weird time to do that. And I think that took some of the air out of the tires tonight. I think that's correct.

There was a couple of moments, I mean, literally one or two when a candidate said something to the effect of a lot of the other people up here on stage might want to and then fill in your straw man or your legitimate critique. For the most part, there wasn't even a lot of like,

vague attacks on other people on stage. It wasn't until sort of the last act of the debate when I thought it sort of came into focus that there were some distinctions. And maybe it's the moderates versus the liberals, but maybe it's just sort of, you know, more of a more of a demographic difference. Maybe it's just more of an ideological difference. But, you know, the Medicare for All argument is the one that we keep honing in on. And I think that that's, I don't think that that's illegitimate. I think that's an important thing. to talk about for sure. But then we started getting into these other, the actual points of division and it's not the silly stuff that's been drummed up in the previous debates. It's reasonable

stuff like pot legalization, like like abortion law and whether or not Roe versus Wade should be an actual law as opposed to just, it's assumed to be the law of the land. The public funding of elections. Like these, these are, you know, maybe small bore issues in the grand, I mean, in terms of just like Democrats don't necessarily agree or disagree on a large. scale. But I thought that that when those issues started coming up, those did more damage to the institutional candidates, Biden in particular, than maybe some of, you know, some of the things that were given more time. Yes, totally agree. And I think that maybe that's because they just haven't been brought up as much. It feels like we have litigated healthcare to the

end of the earth at this point. But that stuff just hasn't had its, its moment. I also think when you talk about difference in ideas, just as striking to me on that stage, and by the way, on Twitter versus the people on that stage is difference in tone and difference in affect. And you talk about Pete Buttigieg being a little bit hokey. That is absolutely what he wants to do. Yeah. He is going for Frank Capra. He is trying to be the Frank Capra candidate. in this race. He had that thing where he said, the sun's going to come up on the day after the Trump presidency ends and it's going to be a tender moment. And one of the other candidates, maybe it was Kamala Harris. I can't remember said kind of in a little bit of a, you know, that tender day or whatever,

kind of mocking him. I thought a little bit. But, but that's where he wants to go with this. Clearly, other candidates clearly want to go absolutely red meat to the base. Other candidates like Klobuchar want to kind of go in the middle. She's not going Frank Caprador, but it's more of that, you know, less affected Midwestern populism. It's just, it's just a fascinating. I mean, we are, we have 10 candidates there today and they were about basically 10 different tones there. And that's if you can actually discern what Tom Steyer's tone is, more on him in a second.

I do want to talk to you about Joe Biden's night. Got off to kind of a weird start when he sent out his generic post-debate message at like three o'clock, sent out a note to supporters saying, I'm leaving the fifth Democratic debate now. I hope I made you proud out there. The debate had not happened at that point. He's still doing that thing, David, where when he can't think of what he's supposed to say or makes a mistake, he closes his eyes, like he's getting really angry in himself, which I think just makes any verbal stumble so much worse. Did make a little news tonight by saying he would treat Saudi Arabia like a pariah state and no longer sell them weapons, which was pretty surprising. But as

say his biggest moment of the night, I think, is when he and Corey Booker got into it on marijuana policy. Biden was trying to counter by playing up his support with African Americans, particularly an African American senator. He's referring to Carol Mosley Braun, but listen to how he does it. I have a lot of respect for the vice president. He is swore me into my office as a hero. This week, I hear him literally say that I don't think we should legalize marijuana. I I thought you might have been high when you said it. And marijuana in our country is already legal for privileged people. And it's one of the war on drugs has been a war on.

And so let me just say this. With more African Americans under criminal supervision in America than all the slaves since 1850 do not roll up into communities and not talk directly to issues that are going to relate to the liberation of children because there are people in Congress right now that admit to smoking marijuana while there are people, our kids are in jail right now for those drug crimes.

And so these are the kind of issues that mean a lot to our community, and if we don't have somebody authentically, we lost the last election. I think we should decriminalize marijuana, period. And I think anyone, anyone who has a record should be let out of jail. Their record is expunged.

It would be completely zeroed out. But I do think it makes sense based on data that we should study what the long-term effects on for the use of marijuana. That's all it is. Number one, everybody gets out, record expunged. Secondly, I'm part of that Obama coalition. I come out of the black community in terms of my support. If you notice, I have more people supporting me in the black community that have announced for me

because they know me. They know who I am. Three former chairs of the black caucus. the only African-American woman that had ever been elected to the United States Senate. A whole range of people. No, that's not true. That's not true. I said the first.

Thank you. Thank you. I said the first African-American elected. Come on. So my point is, my point is, one of the reasons I was picked to be vice president. It was because of my relationship. Long-standing relationship. Kamala Harris said, no, no.

I am standing right. here. I am standing right here. By the way, that whole answer, was he fish staling all over the place? I come out of the black community in terms of my support. Oh my gosh. Yeah, like there's no end of that sentence.

They could have worked out for him. And I don't, he certainly didn't find it. Yeah, I mean, it's, here's the thing. It's, my, my first reaction is it's just not in good terrain for Biden to be, you know engaging on but that seemed to be sort of his his MO for tonight that seemed to be he seemed to just sort of be like his entire game plan was to sort of say out loud the things that he was only that you know that previously he was just sort of thinking to himself or talking to his campaign

staff about you know I mean and and I'm not quite sure I'm not quite sure that's a bad idea it was very kind of unsettling in the moment. But I mean, listen, I think that there's there is certainly a logic to, you know, vote for the person who's going to be able to beat Trump and vote for the person who's going to be able to flip Senate seats, and that's me. And that's the sort of argument that usually is left to talking heads

and to spokespeople and campaign staff to make for you, right? It was unusual for Biden being making that in real time. But again, maybe it'll work. He's out there on the stage. He's the one that people are paying attention to. I think what was much less effective setting the race comments aside was his continued insistence, and he's been doing this all along. But it felt really much more extreme tonight that he's out there in the lead on every single issue

because he was there in Washington when they passed whatever archaic version of the bill was. And I think that at the end of, in any other, in a head-to-head election, and, you know, in a one-on-one matchup, I mean, against Trump, but definitely against any other Republican, that's what exactly what's going to be thrown back in his face. That's the reason why senators have a hard time getting elected into the presidency, because they have this long, they have this litany of bills attached to them. And for him to just be like, oh, no, no, no, don't, I mean, basically the argument was, don't worry about this stuff because I'm already thinking about, I've already done all this stuff. Well, that's an interesting.

insult to everybody that saw it their suffering, right? To say that like we've already, we've already been over that. It's just, it's insulting. So I really, I think that, you know, maybe he, maybe, maybe, maybe the electability argument is sound. I think that the substantive argument about him being, you know, the most liberal guy up on stage is, was, was wanting. He, particularly when he's, as you say, embracing this gigantic record of legislation, he was talking about the violence against women act. He was trying to make a point about domestic violence. And he said, we need to change the culture of domestic violence and keep punching at it and

punching at it and punching at it. And everybody started laughing because that does not feel like the right metaphor for tackling domestic violence. No. That was uniquely Joe Biden metaphor. The crowd reacted to him several points in the night in the clip you just played and also in that moment more sort of viscerally than anything except for a couple of a. think Kamala Harris laugh lines, Corey Booker, too, obviously. But there was a real kind of anxiety

coming from the crowd with some of the things that he said justifiably. Maybe they were just mic differently. Maybe they were a more responsive audience. But yeah, I mean, for him to, listen, we all, everybody makes mistakes, but Biden, you know, slips the tongue, whatever. Biden is notorious for them. And for him in that moment to not realize what he said, and to say like, no, no, no, I mean it. That just seemed like just, it perfect Biden gas. What do you think they were laughing at? Do you think they were laughing at the idea? Like, no, no, no, I'm not making a joke.

No, it's like, no, no, we're laughing at the way you're expressing this idea. It was the reaction of a man who's used to being laughed at. I mean, that's the problem. God, that's so heartbreaking. It's incredibly sad. David, does it make me the kind of centrist pundit that is hated by liberal Twitter if I say Amy Klobuchar had a good night? Because she had a good night, as you said.

First of all, I love that Amy Klobuchar is the only presidential candidate in history that can approvingly quote Walter Mondale at a debate. Even Walter Mondale didn't approvingly quote Walter Mondale. She has an amazing ability to kind of lull you into complacency with about like 15 seconds of just the most boring thing. you've ever heard and then begin somehow lead it into a really great one-liner or really compelling argument without shifting gears she just sort of she just sort of revs up a little bit and all the sudden she's like she's got you um

and it has a power to it because it starts small or it starts on a real even keel and that's what makes it so she was talking about voting right or she was talking about citizens united campaign finance and then she swerved into saying look if the law was different, Stacey Abrams would be governor of Georgia right now. The debate was in Atlanta. Our very own Kenny Herzog notes that that is the definition of a cheap pop and it was very effective. And then she had that answer where again, they were kind of setting her up because she had made a comment to the notion of, look, if a woman with Pete Buttigieg's experience was standing up on this debate stage, we would say she's unqualified because there's a different standard for women than there is for men. they kind of reloaded that one of the moderators so that she would go in on buddha judge instead

she turns it into this rousing answer an incredible answer let's take a quick listen women are held to a higher standard otherwise we could play a game called name your favorite woman president which we can't do because it has all been men and including all vice presidents being men and i think any working woman out there any woman is at home knows exactly what I mean. We have to work harder, and that's a fact. But I want to dispel one thing, because for so long, why has this been happening? I don't think you have to be the tallest person on this stage to be president.

I don't think you have to be the skinniest person. I don't think you have the loudest voice on the stage. I don't think that means that you will be the one that should be president. I think what matters is if you're smart, if you're competent, and if you get things done. She went on to say that Nancy Pelosi beats Donald Trump every day. So of course a woman can beat Donald Trump in the general election. She was really good. She was really good.

I don't know if that's going to change anything with her polling and her chances, which seemed to rest all on Iowa and how she does there. But she had a great night. Can we put Kamala Harris and Corey Booker together? Because as you say, they've now, they're both kind of in the lower tier of presidential candidates. Booker's always been there. Harris has been there after her surge,

brief surge earlier in the year. But they both had good nights tonight. And I don't know. I feel you and I say this after every debate, David. They had the kind of nights that make you wonder why they're not at the top of the polls. It is a mystery that maybe, you know, if we keep this podcast going for a decade,

we'll have some inkling of an answer as to how these things work by the end of it. You know, I think that what was frustrating about Harris's performance is it was evocative of that first debate where she did really well and where the polls reflected that immediately thereafter. But the performances in between were so much less impressive and not for any real discernible reason, right? I mean, it's just sort of like, you know, like a basketball player that has on nights and off nights and you can't really like, and there's no rhyme or reason to why. She was transcendent tonight. I mean, she had some moments. I mean, the line about politicians catering to the black community, about the ending was, you know, the question becomes where have you been?

Black women, yeah. The question becomes, where have you been? what are you going to do about it? I mean, she just, I mean, she had the nation in the palm of her hand. Booker, on the other hand, it wasn't so much a continuation of where he's been before. And maybe it has an ideological continuation. But to me, what I kept thinking of was all those sort of, like, that block of Republican voters that insists that they're, that they vote Republican just because they're, like, economically conservative, but they're socially liberal. Like that, Booker seemed to sort of be deliberately rebranding as that, except like the Democratic version of it.

He was very, he was as far left and compelling and and outspoken on just about every issue he could he could wrap his hands around except economic policy, which he, which he started off the night with and which he spoke really eloquently about. but, you know, from his economic, I mean, from, you know, from, with his questionable relationship with Wall Street over the years and, and, you know, all that stuff, the discussion about, about prosperity for more, you know, pathways to prosperity for more Americans, I, I, I had a little bit of trouble with it. Um, not that he should be disingenuous. I think that he believes it really, he believes that very seriously. But it felt like sort of a platitude in an arena where I would want a little bit more specificity from him in particular. There would be a really interesting timeline where Harris or Booker started a race where you had like two or three Democrats, kind of like we had in 2008, with one really flawed frontrunner.

and they were kind of the, you know, second candidate and insurgent candidate, they could win that nomination. I just think they're lost in this somehow. And I also think, don't you think when you hear both of them talk that both of them would be much better as a front runner than as an insurgent candidate? Absolutely. Just the way they talk. Like, if under some scenario, they were at the top of the polls, I think they would go into debate and just coast and begin. great. But it's hard for them, it's been really hard for them to make up ground and find their way into that first tier. Again, that's just like you said, maybe we're going to need like another

game change sequel. Not by that one guy, but the other guy. And a couple of campaign books to figure out why. I think that, I mean, I think, I think the Harris campaign has had a hard time or has had not, has had a little bit of difficulty sort of defining itself. And I think every debate, tonight was a great example where she really made the case for how her experience as a prosecutor. made her the right person for the job right I mean the the she defended everybody no matter their race their gender the you know their their economic background and that's the sort of person we need as a president that's that was kind of the most compelling version of that argument we heard tonight from anybody but I think we've gotten a sort of like a piece of the

biographical sketch in each debate and they haven't really coalesced into one argument for her candace in favor of her candidacy. candidacy. And I think that you're right in the sense that if she were the frontrunner or if she were running, you know, if she had more space to run a sort of unique political campaign, I mean, a unique campaign on the politics, and maybe she'd have time to figure that stuff out or maybe it would come, you know, it would come together. But for most politicians, that comes packaged in. Booker's actually completely the opposite. I mean, I think the biggest lesson in politics that we've learned over the past couple of cycles is if you have the opportunity to run, you run. I mean,

if anybody's asking you if you're running for president, the answer either has to be yes or never. And Elizabeth Warren may be the only candidate to put the light of that. But it worked for Obama, it worked for Trump. And I think the biggest problem with the Booker campaign is we've been reading about his potential presidential run for about 45 years. And that's worked to his benefit. I mean, that's helped him in national politics or in local politics forever. But, you know, at this point, I think that that's why he's probably. be having some difficulty getting traction because it doesn't feel there's no newness to him. So they're kind of coming from very different points of view, I mean, very different places in terms

of the campaign. But I agree. I mean, at their best, both of them tonight spoke like incredible. Like maybe they were probably the two most compelling speakers on the stage. And if they had been, if they had been like you said, the front runners, it would have felt like, you know, Obama at the D&C, that sort of moment. I mean, it was, they, they both had high points, but it just seemed to lack whatever it was behind it that, that really would allow us to feel that way. We're putting it on them too. But hey, imagine if the primaries and caucuses were in a different order. And, you know, Iowa wasn't dictating anything. Maybe, maybe this leaderboard would look different. You're going to have to help me with Bernie Sanders because I didn't get a great, clear sense of Bernie Sanders tonight. I almost

felt like I was an Iowa voter getting a Bernie Sanders robocall. Just the talking points recited to me. The obligatory I wrote the damn bill moment. Do you have a sense of how Bernie did tonight? I don't think it was bad. No, I thought he did really well. Bernie, I think, and again, I could be totally wrong. It seemed to me like Bernie got the most kind of incisive direct questions from the moderators.

There was a Matt I asked him at one point if it was about the lock him up chance that were going on at his campaign. rallies. Something that he specifically had to answer for, that's a tough question, you know, that that didn't really happen to any other candidates, certainly not Mayor Pete. And then later there's a question about whether or not he'd make a deal with the Taliban that was directed specifically at him. I think there was another one or two. And he answered the questions really well. He did seem to be, you know, those weren't exactly left-field questions, but compared to what some of the, you know, the affronts that the other candidates got, if they got any at all, I thought they were, those were, you know, a tougher line of questioning than one might have expected.

I think that, you know, as we've seen in other debates, Bernie's kind of treated like a frontrunner when it, when it hurts him and treated like a, and treated like an also ran when the other frontrunners are getting their third and fourth time to answer the same question. And he's a, he had a really good night. I don't want to belabor the age and health stuff, but he looked great. He is, he is. performance was moving and powerful. And yeah, I mean, someone, Matt Iglesias or somebody tweeted that, you know, no one goes to Bernie for foreign policy nor should we, but he's always really fun. He's always, like, he gives the best answers about foreign policy.

It's always the, you know, most fun to listen to him. Yeah, and I agree with that. Huh? Why shouldn't we go to him for foreign policy? What other, what other sages should we be listening to on foreign policy, if not Bernie Sanders? We're too busy listening to the, you know, the grudge, I mean, the grudge fight between, or two, you know, between Tulsi Gabbard and Mayor Pete because they both served and, you know, more credit to them. But, I mean, there's a lot of different ways that these questions, that wisdom in those arenas can be achieved.

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She got to talk a little bit about housing. I thought she was she had one kind of strange answer where she immediately said she wanted to increase the percentage of Americans who were in the military and then cited as an example her mother going to the mailbox to looking to see if her brother had written home from Vietnam that day. I'm not sure how those two ideas get together. like the Vietnam War plus let's have more Americans in the military. But anyway, I thought she did. I think that was the kind of performance that Elizabeth Warren has wanted to deliver and has wanted to get back to. Yeah.

After being attacked last time around. To, I mean, to answer the question that you implicitly just asked, I mean, the way that she got to that was talking about how her three brothers had all served in the military. And how that is sort of an argument for, for what you know a broader military service by by Americans and I think that that that's a piece of what

I think what makes her a really impressive, it makes her really powerful potential nominee because the perception of her and the reality of her as a candidate are very different things and I think that if you haven't paid any attention to Elizabeth Warren if you're a independent voter that has been watching

the primaries it's her personal narrative is such a compelling part of her campaign and one that she ties seamlessly into her politics. And she did a great job. Her closing statement I thought was really impressive, kind of thanking America for what she was allowed to achieve. And that story about her family, I mean, there's been,

she came back to it a number of times throughout the night, and I thought that was really good. The other thing that she did, and we talked about this before, that I think what's impressed me most about her as a candidate is her ability to recover. she's done a number of times dating all the way back to the Native American snafu before she even announced her candidacy.

But the Medicare for all thing, the taxation issue, that was a real problem for her coming out of the last debate. And this time, coming into tonight, or at least tonight when she was having that back and forth with Cory Booker, she hit on what I think could just be, you know, the nail that she just like hangs her entire candidacy on going forward. If she just says it's two cents on the top one-tenth of one percent over and over again, two cents on the top tenth of one percent. It doesn't even matter what you say, because she said it could pay for everything in the world. And at that point, the arguments about it being hocus-pocus economics sort of fall by the wayside because she's saying numbers.

I mean, she's actually talking about a tax, it's a very specific tax plan. And it's, I think, a really compelling argument. It's like they can keep all this money. but then once you get past the middle whatever the number is two cents on the top one tenth of one percent is a really really really really catchy is it that's i think that's the path forward and that shows how she's recovered from the last debate it's the non bonkers version of herman canes nine nine nine yes look we have a it's a we have a single digit here everybody can understand this i want a group tom steyer and andrew yang together because i felt both were

mistreated by this debate. Steyer got his first question 28 minutes into the debate. Yang got his first question 32 minutes into the debate. I'm sorry. And I may be contradicting myself from an earlier pod, so be it.

But if you're going to make the rules and then the candidates qualify by those rules to be in the debate, you have to treat them like a real candidate. That should be the thing. You should not then get to make distinctions. Like you're saying this is the field we want. You could have made it. You could have made a

debate where you say, we're going to take the top five people according to whatever formula. You didn't do that. They made the debate and you should treat them like a real candidate. I'm sorry. I don't think either one of them is going to win, but 32 minutes like one fourth of the time into the debate without a question. I don't get that. And, you know, I know he's tweeting during the debate that he's not getting to talk and all that stuff. I agree. You're, you're, you're not. not and it's stupid. Yeah, and going to them as the sort of single issue candidates.

I mean, I guess Yang got directly asked, you know, what experience he had to be able to deal with, you know, various international affairs. He got a Putin question, he got a parental leave question, he got one on

white supremacist terror, right? He talked about classifying his domestic terror. Steyer got asked about housing policy, Steyer had this real thing where he was like that. He's yeah, but he was like the I'm the nobody else will say it guy tonight. Nobody on this stage is talking about term limits and everybody's kind of looking at you're right.

And then he was like, nobody will say the climate is the number one issue or I can't remember how he phrased it, but everything was in the, the nobody else is talking about this. And he did get into it Biden at one point, but I think Democrats are very, very happy to ignore Tom Steyer as much as they. possibly can and yeah i mean i think i think that the the the the prevailing things that i mean arguments that i saw on on twitter tonight were well you know the the trump the the trump presidential campaign and like various russian trolls retweeting um retweeting tulsy gabbard lines i thought that was one thing but the other thing was like uh like why is tom steyer up here

and Castro's not. And I think that just like all these, you know, other potential candidates, Bloomberg and whoever else that are talking about getting into the race, Tom Steyer's kind of got that question to answer too. And I don't, you know, he's there, but I'm not sure anybody, I'm not sure even the voters are particularly interested

in taking him seriously. And even though I feel like it really diminishes, it was funny when Andrew Yang stood up for him at some point, at that one point during the debate, it diminishes everything he's accomplished. Tom Steyer is an incredibly admirable guy and honest and forthright. And he was right. He's the only one up there talking about structural change and a lot of issues.

You know, he went into direct democracy, man. I mean, that's like some wild stuff for a primary argument, you know. Right. But he hasn't had to do any. I mean, all he's had to do is, you know, spend money on stuff. Like, he hasn't had to make laws and that's an advantage. And listen, everybody should be skeptical. And everybody should be skeptical of him to the point of

dismissing him. I'm all aboard on that. I mean, I think I don't, I think that he's got, there's, there's too much baggage to overcome. And I think that the, the Bloomberg question that we, that we, that we talked about last episode or the one before applies to him too. It's like, why is he not just donating to a campaign that, that he, that he agrees with? Because he's not making any headway doing this. He just, he's, he's turned himself into a powerful activist, from powerful activist, into, you know, a kooky also ran. And that's not a place anybody wants to be. and finally David Tulsi Gabbard 25 minutes before she got into the debate

got into it with Kamala Harris Harris called her essentially a de facto Fox News anti-Obama pundit she got off the line the Bush Clinton Trump foreign policy of regime change wars numerous times and then as we heard locked up with Mayor Pete at the end about his invasion of Mexico. The Times, by the New York Times, the judges what she said about who did a judge invading Mexico,

do not be true or stretching the truth or whatever it is. She certainly made waves tonight. As I mentioned, the Trump campaign retweeted her or tweeted out one of her comments about the Democratic establishment. She's not good at attacking people, though. Remember she was going to put everybody on blast? and she's not good at it. No, no.

I mean, and I think if you saw her exchange with, I mean, she went after Mayor Pete, and I think if any, if you, I saw people online saying, I mean, and again, you know, the provenance of these may be suspicious, but people saying that she like, you know, she, she took him down.

I mean, if you, if you, maybe if you stopped listening after she stopped talking. But I thought Mayor Pete going back at her, Buddha judge going back at her. And then earlier, like you mentioned, Senator Harris going out, after her were two of the biggest like, you know,

X destroys Y YouTube clip moments of the night. And, and I, you know, I think if she had anything to lose, it would, you would say, it's tough to see where she goes from here. But, you know, it seemed like everybody was just fed up with her. Like the feeling that, like, I just described of, like, voters, like trying to figure out what Tom Steyer was doing up there. I felt like everybody else on stage was trying to figure out what Tulsi Gabbard was still doing up there.

And, yeah, I mean, she did not, she, she, I don't feel like, I mean, I feel like she, she probably had a successful night by her, by, by her campaign calculus. But I just can't imagine anything, anything coming from this in a positive way. Well, we'll see. I mean, we'll, you know, we'll see. She got to take on Hillary Clinton. that was a I guess that was a significant moment

I don't know I mean what else do we take from this I mean are we gonna is she gonna hang around till I mean until the bitter end well she's she's inching closer to qualifying for December so I think as long as she keeps qualifying for debates she doesn't seem to be a candidate to me that's too worried about

you know getting out of this race anytime soon I think she's I think she's in it all the way and I think whatever whatever she's doing next depends on her staying in this race and attacking what she says are the rotten establishment Democrats. I don't know what she's going to do next. I don't know if she's going to run as a third party. I don't know if she's going to

be a Fox News pundit. I don't know if she's going to have some other act in her, but whatever it is, it depends on her doing this. The whole thing that you mentioned earlier about and this is probably this is kind of neither here nor there. And I think we talked about it some after the last debate, but the whole thing about the Bush Clinton Trump foreign policy, the regime change wars. She said regime change wars in the past couple of debates over and over and over.

And I don't, I mean, maybe this says more about me than it says about her. But when you use a phrase, when you use a phrase like that that I just haven't heard ever so many times and so deliberately and so confidently, I can't help but just think like what weird websites are you reading all day that use this language that I'm unfamiliar with? you know I mean it just seems like to subscribe to that newsletter no yeah yeah I would absolutely like to never see that website or newsletter in my life

like I don't want to but it just it's it's suspect you know it's suspect but you know I mean like I said she probably thinks she had a great night and I just I think that she is I mean you mentioned Kenny Herzog talking about the cheap pop and to go back to wrestling one more time I mean she seemed to be up there playing heel tonight I think the open question is

to what degree she's, she's, you know, embracing that role because like you said, she's not that great at it. But it does seem to be the role she's been cast into.

This isn't explicitly about the debate, David, but it seems like it's the most important story in American politics and we should finish here. Can we talk about Fartgate? Because House Intel committee member

and former quixotic presidential candidate Eric Swalwell was on a hardball Monday on the same network. we saw the debate on tonight, MSNBC. We don't have Smelovision, alas, but listen to this clip

very, very carefully. Taxpayer dollars to ask the Ukrainians to help them cheat in election. And the complaint that I've heard from Yeah. Hardball issued a statement about that noise

saying, sorry to disappoint the conspiracy theorists. By the way, I'm not sure I'm not sure anybody was proposing a conspiracy. Conspiracy is like when multiple people get together to do something, right? This is, I think we were thinking about one particular host of hardball, but sorry to disappoint the conspiracy theorist. It was the hardball mug scraping across the desk. Get yours today and let's get back to the news. And then there's a link to the MSNBC store to which the political writer Josh Barrow replies

by this mug that makes fart noises is not one of the better product pitches I've heard lately. David, what is your take on Fartgate? My mind, this is not, I know a lot of people tweeted about this, I

did not have to look at Twitter for my mind to immediately go to a blindgossip.com post from August of 2018 titled the MSNBC Farter. I'm I'm reading from blindgossip.com.

Which cable news host at MSNBC has such a terrible case of flashulence that the guests are running for the doors after appearing live on the cable host's show? Producers have tried everything from fans to air fresheners and even removing spicy food from the host's dressing room, but nothing seems to work. I'm not saying, I'm not trying to make this into a conspiracy theory, but if you wanted to start drawing lines, you know, the truth is out there. there's a PA going into this unnamed MSNBC host dressing room and just taking the spicy food away and putting in the trash and just putting quinoa or something else. Yeah. Some less flatulent food there. They've tried everything. There's a whole Twitter thread by somebody named Aaron Burdett that has evidence, let us say, of other hardball explosions.

So if you really want to go down the rabbit hole tonight, have at it. I'm drinking some Currig-brewed coffee right now, David, and I do not think I could get this mug to make that sound if I scraped it across the desk a hundred times. So,

anyway, not a conspiracy theory. He is David Shoemaker, I'm Brian Curtis, researched by Chris Lov, made a production magic by the great Jim Cunningham. Thank you for staying up with us. We're back Tuesday with more lukewarm takes about the media. See you then, David.

See you later, Brian. No. Yeah. See you later, Brian. Thank you, sir.