The Press Box - The Post-Norby Era at ESPN, the Magic of Ian Eagle, Eclipse Talk, and Caleb Williams Takes With Chicago Radio Host Danny Parkins

Episode Date: April 8, 2024

Hello media consumers! Today, Bryan is joined Chicago radio host Danny Parkins. They get into the post-Norby era at ESPN after the longtime executive, Norby Williams, was let go after being with the company since 1985 (1:53). Then, they get into March Madness talk as they discuss Caitlin Clark, Ian Eagle, and more. (13:22). To close the show, Bryan talks to Danny about his career and something really amazing he did in high school (50:02) Host: Bryan Curtis Guest: Danny Parkins Producer: Brian H. Waters Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Have you ever wondered about the meaning behind your favorite song lyric or why certain melodies make your skin tingle? I'm Cole Kushner and these are the kinds of questions I try to answer on Dissect, a podcast that dives deep into one album per season examining the music, lyrics, and meaning of one song per episode. I've dissected full albums by Kendrick Lamar, Radiohead, Tyro the Creator, Beyonce, Kanye, and more. Our latest season just launched all about MF Doom's Mad Villany. Listen to Dissect wherever you get your podcast because great art deserves more than a swipe. Hello, media consumers. Welcome to Pressbox. Brian Curtis of the Ringer here, along with producer Brian Waters. Coming up on today's show, the post-Norby era at ESPN, some observations on the women's and men's final four, and March Madness's new resident comedian, Ian Eagle.

Plus some eclipse talk, Caleb Williams talk, the art of doing sports radio in Chicago, and how Division III coaches conquered basketball. All of that with our guest host today, Danny Parkins. He hosts Afternoon Drive at the Score in Chicago. No less than Colin Coward has called him the best young radio host in America and less obnoxious than other hosts that were recommended by Nick Wright. Parkins is also the co-author of the new book, Pipeline to the Pros, which comes out next week. Danny, welcome to the press box. Brian, it's an honor, man.

And less obnoxious than people recommended by, by Nick Wright is the lowest of bars, but I was able to clear it. And some people would even disagree with that characterization and call me plenty of obnoxious. But honestly, man, it's an honor. I love the podcast. I love your work. So thank you for having me. I noticed that you left that out of your author bio in the book, too, Danny.

Less annoying than other hosts recommended by Nick Wright. The book had already gone to print when Colin gave me that glowing endorsement. So I'll take it. Let's start with a big sports media story that happened on Friday. Norby Williamson. A name dozens of us knew before it was mentioned by Pat McAfee in January is out at ESPN. He's an executive there who'd been with a company since 1985. Now he has been ousted or defenestrated, as we like to say in media reporting.

Danny, I would love to know your take on this. The whole two-month saga of Norby Williamson and anchors calling out executives on television. well, in sports, we like to say that it's the era of player empowerment. And I think at the top of the media ecosystem, it has become the era of talent empowerment. And executives either need to adapt or die. And I've never met Norby Williamson, but I know a lot of people who have and who have worked with him. and it seems like he wasn't a huge fan of how empowered these high-priced, high-profile talent have become.

And it sounds like he did not adapt. And in an era where all you got to do to have a platform is be able to afford a microphone and a laptop. And I don't know if you've seen the salaries of these top media executives, If they can afford really nice laptops and really nice microphones, the real estate that ESPN offers obviously still matters, but I think it also obviously matters less than it ever has before. And so Pat McAfee doesn't need ESPN.

ESPN needs Pat McAfee more than he needs them. And it seems like that imbalance, that shift in power, he didn't adapt to it. And so now he's out. I totally agree ESPN has gone to great pains over the last couple of days to say this isn't about Pat McAfee. But it also isn't not about Pat McAfee when, as you say, you take an old school TV executive who's all about top-down management, hierarchical management. There's this whole litany of run-ins he's had with talent over the years, one of which I wrote about years ago when I was doing an oral history of Stuart Scott. and Stuart Scott's sister told me about all the times that he and Norby had faced off,

which I think got me taken off Norby's holiday card list. Our colleague Ryan Rosillo here said, Norby didn't like any of us. It doesn't make you special. That was a great line. So here's the second part of this, Danny, that's fascinating. So if we're in this players coach era of management at places like ESPN, can that work long term?

Can that make for a profitable and peaceful media, empire? It's tough because I think what you're starting to see, and this is an amazing thing for someone like me who's never been in management but is on the talent side. You know, you watch Stephen A. Smith, the most powerful person in front of a camera at ESPN, do first take, and they are promoting the Stephen A. Smith show, which has no affiliation with ESPN, which he owns and that he says some wild stuff on. Like about Jason Whitlock, let us say. Yeah, about Jason Whitlock, about

about women, about sex, about cartoons. Like, it is a wild watch that I feel like a decade ago, that would have been met with some punishment or at least some questions. And now they're promoting it on the bottom line. Pat McAfee is swearing on ESPN and they're just licensing his show. Like if he, if they fired him tomorrow, as far as I understand it, he just gets to take his IP and go home and then sell it to whoever else wants it. And he's used ESPN and their platform and their mainstream nature to just grow his audience and his subscriber base and convert, you know, the sports bar and airport.

into Pat McAfee fans and a percentage of them would then follow him when he leaves. And so it feels like and again, I am on the talent side of this, but I'm obviously not at their level.

I'd love to be. It seems like it's a deal that they're making with the devil of. We need this talent and we're going to do whatever we can to hold on to them for as long as we can. But it's very clear that Stephen A. Smith

is preparing his own parachute. And it's very clear that Pat McAfee is using ESPN to build up his own audience for whenever he goes out into the open market again. And so I don't know, you called it an empire. ESPN will always exist as long as they're airing live sports. But how much longer they're going to have $15 million a year talent when those talents can use ESPN to build up their own vehicle? Definitely seems like there's an expiration date on that deal.

Yeah, and speaking of expiration dates, Stephen A has got to get a new contract this year. So if we think it was funny that they're advertising an outside podcast now, imagine what that's going to look like when it gets redone for more money and with more agency and perhaps with him owning more things either that air on ESPN like McAfee's show does or that don't air on ESPN. I mean, that's going to be a whole new package. He's he's openly flirting with Jimmy Kimmel's job. I mean, I know Kimmel keeps talking about how he's going to retire and this was his last contract. And so maybe that's the succession plan and they're all in on it. But it's a wild thing to see these people who clearly don't need the place that they work. It's an amazing thing.

It really is. I think it's great. I just would be terrified of it if I was in Norby Williamson's old seat. granted, Stephen A's flirtation with Jimmy Kimball's job is perhaps preferable to ESPN and then the approach that Pat McAfee's show took to Jimmy Kimmel's job. Just putting that. Yes. They will, yes.

No, absolutely. They have a much bigger problem with one than the other. Whenever you are clarifying your stance on allegations of pedophilia and that you know it's serious, you've misstepped somewhere along the way. That was a wild story. Is this method of managing talent made it? its way to sports radio. Ha!

I wish. I have had opportunities that have come to me over the years that I have been given a green light to. And I've had opportunities that have come to me over the years that were perceived to be with competing companies that technically they were. but I think that's a pretty, it was a pretty broad definition of competitor that's cost me a lot of money,

if I'm being honest. And I think that it would have helped all of us because the more people that would promote me or hear me in other places, the score would be my main thing. And so, you know, when I want to write a book, they're cool with it.

When I want to go on TV, they're cool with it. But, you know, this has been out there. So if my company gets mad at me for telling the story again, you know, so be it.

I mean, Colin Cowherd tried to hire me when he launched the volume. So he wanted to say that I was the best young sports talk host in the country two years ago. And we had gotten to the two-yard line with my company for that happening. And then it fell apart, even though Colin owned the whole thing, but that Iheart was doing something with the sales side of the operation. Odyssey and I heart are competitors. And it was no longer able to happen. So, you know, that devastated me. because I felt like it was an opportunity to grow my platform nationally and talk about national things,

and it wouldn't be in conflict with doing local sports radio. But hopefully a lot's changed in two years. It's tough to be all things to all people. And when you can see talent work for Fox Sports One in the NFL network or ESPN and Sirius and own their own podcasts and promote their own things, It feels like the best talent, whatever level of the industry you're at, we're going to be seeking freedom more so than anything else. Because the real estate that I have matters a great deal.

Don't get me wrong. My dream job was afternoon drive sports radio in Chicago. But that was also when sports radio was the biggest and only game in town. Right now we've got podcasts and Pandora and iTunes. and we got driverless cars coming, so people are going to be able to watch videos in their cars. There's Twitch and everything else. So it hasn't made its way to sports radio completely yet,

but I do think, again, I'm at like adapter die model. I'm hopeful and cautiously optimistic that it's coming. It goes back to the idea of competition in 2024. Isn't everything competition? So we're not just saying you can't work for the radio station across town. We can't work for the competing media company. anything could be competition.

Anything could be drawing eyes and ears away from it. So how do you define what that is? Yeah. And I obviously don't have to answer those questions. And as someone on the talent side, I want those things to be pretty defined as, you know, I do radio for you and I do a podcast for you and I'm happy to do both.

But if all audio or all website or things that, you know, this is a video thing, but it can be repurposed as audio. If all of that is competition too, that's real tough. I mean, I'm 37 years old. I've got a four-year-old and two-year-old and a mortgage. I need to figure out how to support my family for the next 20-something years in an ever-evolving media space. So I need to be adapting and getting my content into the newest and latest places.

and I would hope that that would have benefit for the radio station because the more people who know who I am, the better it is for the radio station. But I also just practically need to do it for my family. So I do think it is something that I'm hoping that radio companies, and again, I like the place that I work and I love my station and all that. But I do think that these lessons are pretty instructive, if I'm being honest of those lines need to those walls need to get broken down and it should help everybody because if you don't I mean at some point you're going to you're going to be

left in the dust when all these all these other people allow talent to to do more things and do the things that they want to do let's talk about the final four or final fours women's final final was yesterday afternoon south carolina beats iowa still waiting on the audience number for that, but it will probably be bigger than the 12 million who watched Iowa and LSU. What is your take on the last couple of weeks and, in fact, last year and change that women's basketball has had? Fairly remarkable. My first thought was when Ice Cube made the $5 million offer to Caitlin Clark for the big three

for 10 games plus a couple of playoff games and she could still play in the WNBA, and it was five million dollars. It's like, well, five million bucks for 12 games of work is great money, but it's probably underpaying her because I'm not saying that Caitlin Clark is solely responsible for this. There are obviously other great stories and there are other reasons why women's college basketball has been on the rise. And I'm not enough of an expert to say whether or not she's the goat and like engage in that debate, though the fact that those debates are even happening is a sign that the

sport has arrived. But if she, on the power of her phenomenon, can make women's college basketball a more watched television property than the NBA finals, the World Series, and every college football game except for five last year, then she's worth nine figures. And that come-up is incredible. And I think it's been recognized to ESPN's credit. their studio programming is invested in in very good. They did alternate telecasts, which generated buzz and controversy after the foul call when they had the whole Yukon cast on with Scott Van Pelt. But controversy is good because people are talking about it. Ryan Rucco and the play-by-play broadcast is high level.

Thinking about women's college basketball as being on the same level as the Orange Bowl and the Cotton Bowl is a real recalibration. I think that sports fans need to do, but ESPN is treating it as such, and I think that they're seeing the rewards. My favorite detail, and I think this came from The Athletic, was that Fox was thinking about putting together an NIL deal to keep Caitlin Clark in college

and in their Big Ten programming for one more year. Yeah. Talk about the new world. And like, all of these endorsements are going to follow her to the WNBA. So like to say she's taking, a pay cut is missing the force through the trees. Like she's, yes, like some specific NIL money for Iowa won't be there and the salary of the WNBA is less than the NIL money.

But Caitlin Clark is going to be making millions and millions of dollars for the foreseeable future playing basketball. So she's choosing to do that for the Indiana fever instead of the Iowa Hawkeyes, like more power to her. You mentioned Ruko. He had a really tricky task at the end of the game. yesterday, which was to honor the South Carolina victory, but also honor this idea that this great college career, maybe the best of all time, was coming to a close. It was fascinating to

me to watch. And it was a matter of his narration. It was a matter of camera shots from the ESPN truck. And I think they actually did both really well at the same time. Who did you make of that? I think you're spot on. But I also don't think it's quite as. rare in sports as it would seem. We've seen Patrick Mahomes lose a Super Bowl. We've seen LeBron lose an NBA finals. They get covered. They get followed by the camera.

We're interested in their reaction shots. I think that the percentage was maybe a little bit higher on the losing team than normal. But we're speaking to it, right? If that game yesterday was Yukon, South Carolina, the rating would be good. It would be impressive. But you think it would be lower than Iowa, Yukon, right? Sure. I think we all do.

And so that speaks to like, you've got to serve your audience. So, like, that means that the championship game, if it was Yukon, South Carolina, fewer people would care about it. than a semi-final game because of the star power of Kate and Clark. So by that one metric, that actually means that Caitlin Clark is the bigger story than the champion. And ESPN recognized that and covered it appropriately. I actually thought, like, note for note,

it was really, really impressive how they balanced it. Because you can't ignore the champion, but you also can't do a disservice to your audience. If I didn't see how Caitlin Clark was reacting in that moment of the loss, I would feel cheated as a viewer. I thought they did a very good job. Yeah, it's subtle. And they went to the celebration on the court.

Then they had her walking down the tunnel. And she kind of had that expression on her face like, why are you following me down the tunnel? Yeah, no, no. But we're following you as your why people are watching. I got a text about this from someone. How did ESPN figure out how to do a great college basketball halftime show before they figured out how to do a great NBA halftime show? Oh, that's fascinating. Okay, that's fascinating.

Probably some of it is dumb luck. And the other thing is that there is not a comparison to the ultimate gold standard. We're not comparing the ESPN Women's College Basketball halftime show to inside the NBA, the inside the NBA equivalent of it. And so I think that's always been a huge part of ESP. NBA coverage problem. And I think they've done a good job with the Scott Van Pelt SportsCenter of making that feel really big and retaining audiences.

But they just always did like the inverse. Inside the NBA on TNT, the big thing was the postgame show. I can't wait to hear what Charles Barkley is going to have to say about this. Whereas for ESPN, they always have to get into Sports Center or now into Van Pelt. So they tried to make the pregame show the big thing with all of the big personalities. and as someone who has just done both, pregame is so much less interesting than postgame. Pregame is just like a repackaging of everything else that we've talked about all day, all week, all month, depending on like the layoff before the game.

Postgame is the first time you get to say something about something new. So I think ESPN had a lot of insurmountable difficulties in trying to chase inside the NBA because they were trying to do it before the game when those guys got to do it after the game. I was amazed by how much of the ESPN college halftime show was just observational. about the basketball game we just watched. It's an amazingly simple formula, isn't it? It works. Like, we're just going to get in here.

We're not going to worry about big takery. And I'm all for big takery in its place. It's fine with me. But we're just going to go in here and just exchange notes. And unlike numerous NFL halftime shows, our host will have actually watched the game that they're talking about. It wasn't like they just, ah, you know, something happened.

They need to throw the ball down field more. No, they had very specific observations. It was really, really good. Yeah, I think that that's absolutely what's happening. I also think that there seems to be a widespread, like appreciation and acknowledgement of the moment that the sport was happening, that the moment that the sport was having. And everyone just brought their A game and wanted to highlight,

the sport. You know, that was that that shirt that was going around that viral moment, like everyone is watching women's sports or whatever, whatever. I forget the exact wording of the shirt. I apologize, but like that was just like so wholesome. And I think that it kind of permeated the coverage of, hey, we've loved this sport forever. Now it seems like everyone is loving the sport. So let's do a good job of not highlighting ourselves, but highlighting the sport itself. And I think it came through for sure. And again, it's a balance of the sport, the moment the sport is having and also the very specifics of the game you're watching. Really good work by L Duncan, Andrea Carter-Din-Chene, Ogumice, and then Carolyn Peck and Alia Boston, too.

On the men's side, Danny, final is tonight. Purdue versus Yukon, one versus one. It's Ian Eagle's final, first championship game of any kind as a play-by-play man. What do you make, at least on television, what do you make of Ian Eagle as a basketball announcement? I mean, he's incredible. He's great. By the way, I know you've gotten credit for this a thousand times. He allowed me to be 1001. Your profile on him was spectacular and humanizing and emotional and all things that a profile should be. And I've met Ian and he went to Syracuse and I went to Syracuse and he's such a good guy and he takes care of so many young play-by-play broadcasters and is so giving with his time that there are more good play-by-play broadcast. There are more great play-by-play broadcasters than there are championship game opportunities. It's like Kevin Harlan. He's got it on the radio with the Super Bowls, and that's awesome that he's done it. But there's a really good chance that Kevin Harlan will never call a championship on television.

And that sucks. He's totally fine with it, it seems. I've talked to him about it a little bit on the radio, and he loves the record that he has of Super Bowls and Westwood won, and that's a huge audience. but I kind of put Ion Eagle and Kevin Harlan in that same grouping of like, these guys are excellent. They absolutely could be network number ones. In some ways, they're more relatable than their network number ones. They seem to both like have like a genuine love of games and that sometimes gets lost.

They are very happy to be there and they are funny and creative and talented. And there's no doubt in my mind that Iron Eagle will be. do a good job. You know, there's just, there's just absolutely no question about it. So he'll, he'll have a great moment. The love really comes through with Eagle. When he has a big moment, when he gets excited, he also gets happier. I don't know if you've noticed that with a major highlight. And he sounds like he's smiling from ear to ear when he delivers that call. It's that love of basketball that just really drips through without, again, with still honoring the game in front of us, without getting too distracted by it.

But I'm also always struck by how funny he is. Sports announcers are not funny. They're affable, I think, as a rule. They are what my pal Dan McDowell calls sports funny, which is funny only in the context of a broadcaster in the context of sports. But he's actually funny. And he actually delivers a line.

And you can almost hear it. And this goes back to his upbringing with his dad being a comedian, delivers a line in a very comedian-style way. You can almost hear the rim shot on the broadcast right afterwards. He's very funny. He's very smart. You know, the old school rule of improv always play at the highest end of your intelligence.

He really personifies that in a broadcaster. He's got some sports radio in his back. round, as you know, with Mike and the Mad Dog. And I mean, I'm biased, but I do think that in some ways, sports talk radio is actually the hardest thing because there's not a game in front of you that is providing you the content. And it's the longest form. There is no editor. It's not a 2,000-word column that you get edited down. It's live. You have to create the content and the audience is coming there for you, not for the game. And I say all of that not to pat myself on the back of what I do is the hardest thing, but I do think that we've seen some of the best broadcasters.

They have that experience somewhere in their bag of tricks because it allows you to relate to a lot of people and talk to a lot of different people and be interesting about uninteresting things. Oh, it's a 20-point game, but I still like hanging out with this person. There's something to that Jason Benetti plays at the absolute highest end of his intelligence. I think he, I'd put him in that Iron Eagle category. If you've ever heard Kevin Harlan do a radio interview, his stories are incredible.

I'd put him in that level. So there's just some play-by-play guys that I think kind of have that, they could hold court at a dinner party and be really entertaining and not just be sports entertaining. And those are three names that I'd give you. Eagle is certainly on that short list. Two more final four notes for you. Purdue, NC State, DJ Burns, Center for the Wolfpack, 6-9-2-75.

Did you love the number of euphemisms, Bill Raftery was rolling out there to describe how badly he was playing defense or how much his conditioning left to be desired? Raff is the best. I wish I knew that, man. I wish I would close down to lobby bar with that man. What a cool reputation. Everybody loves you. You've been doing it forever.

And you're also regarded as the best hang. And that allows you to say whatever the hell you want because everyone knows it's coming from a place of love, both of the game and the person. So yeah, of course I love it. Everything Raff says just tickles me a little bit. Like I don't always laugh out loud at it, but I feel like I'm just smiling, listening to him, talk. And because it doesn't come across as mean-spirited. No. It's just like the old guy who can say anything and knows he can say anything and knows that he's

charming and that no one will get offended by it. He's fantastic. He was a bit tardy getting back. It's a siesta time. I mean, it's so good. Just placed right there in the broadcast. I don't know. Do you think he scripts it?

Like, Nance scripts his final calls? Or do you think it's just all riffing? I get the sense that it's all riffing. I think it's just raff. I think it just flows out. That's how he talks in this really fascinating unique way. Last one for you, if we took a time machine back to 1990,

and if we told Spike Lee and Jim Nance that one day they would be doing commercials together, who would be more surprised? Oh, that's interesting. Samuel L. Jackson. Yeah, that is funny. I got to think that Jim Nance would be slightly more surprised because there's something about Spike Lee, I think, that like, he always knew that, of course, I'm Spike Lee. I'm a star.

I make stars and I am a star myself. I got to think that there's something about Jim Nance that is like, I thought I'd be the college golfer from Houston. and he has to be surprised that he gets to hang out with Charles Barkley, Spike Lee, and Samuel L. Jackson. He has to be surprised today that he's included to be there. And I don't think Spike Lee is surprised. So I'll say Jim Nance, but that's a fascinating way to frame that question. 100% agree. We have an eclipse today.

I don't know if you've heard about this. Yeah, I've been on my phone in the last two weeks. Did the eclipse make Parkins and Spiegel? we have we have discussed it a little bit um i think we're going to send our producer out onto the roof deck today uh live to see what he could i love it yeah so i think we're gonna i think we're gonna do that uh as a as a little bit of a man on the street bit um my co-host's son is really into like space he's he's he's 11 or 12 and so that's like kind of his so he my co-spegel has been pushing it more than Parkins of the Parkinson's Spiegel show

a little bit because I think he's talking about it at home. I'm hoping that it makes my commute home on the Kennedy faster because people are looking at the sky on the side of the road. I don't care that much. I just don't. But I mean, great. I'm not going to yuck another man's yum,

whatever they like. It feels like we've had dozens of once in a lifetime celestial moments over the last few years. Yes. absolutely. Like, there is a, do you know the name

Tom Skelling? No. Legendary Chicago weatherman. Just retired from WGN, WGN's chief meteorologist like 40 something years. An absolute legend. He looks like

how you would want your grandpa to look. He kind of looks like Santa Claus. Like he's just like a jolly dude who loves the weather. He cried on television during the last big eclipse story, whatever. He wept openly on television because he was so happy about whatever it was. I don't get it at all, but science has explained it.

That's good enough for me. I'm not a scientist. But, yeah, people get really swept away by these sort of things. They do. The media, too. There's been all kinds of news you can use, including a graphic in the Washington Post today, that showed what the eclipse is going to look like from all 48 continental the United States. And it reminded me of when you go on a ticket broker app and you can see the

view from the seat you're about to buy. Yes. This is what you can expect from Southern California and Chicago. And then like I would imagine for like, you know, Gen Zs or whatever, like, oh, I saw what it's going to look like on my phone. So I don't, so I don't need to look up and see what it actually is. I am excited for John Oliver next week. I is, you know, his like, um, the little interludes between stories that he does. What he goes? And now this. I'm guessing his and now this is going to be local news people doing really dumb things,

like looking at the eclipse without glasses or weeping or whatever it is. Like I can almost call my shot that his and now this is going to be on local newscasters making a fool out of themselves over the eclipse. And I'm very excited for it. It is the absolute luck of the week. I'm guessing Caleb Williams has been a sloth. slightly bigger part of your sports radio program than the eclipse. USC quarterback, he's about to be picked number one by the Bears.

He's done things very differently than other quarterback prospects. When talking to prospective agents, he's inquired. It has been reported about getting an equity stake in the team that drafted him. He's inquired about, is there a way I can sign a rookie deal that is not the NFL mandatory rookie deal that puts me under the thumb of a team for a certain number of years? Of course, at USC, he was one of the first big time players. to use the transfer portal, make really good money, playing college football. This is all of a piece of the agency players are enjoying now and the aforementioned player

empowerment era. What have people in Chicago made of those stories? There has been some confusion and hesitancy about them, but it's largely been met with a shrug. because as long as for a while it was is Caleb Williams going to do a John Elway or an Eli Manning and is he going to

pull the lever and use that power to get out of Chicago if he wants to pull the lever and not have an agent or revisit the rookie wage scale for the CBA those are fights like

between him and the players association between the players association and ownership as long as he's doing it with a C on his helmet and throwing passes to DJ Moore and Keenan Allen, I think everyone's cool with it. The thing that people were a little scared of was, does he believe that Chicago is the place where offense goes to die? The only organization in the NFL to never have a 30 touchdown passer, the only organization in the NFL to never have a 4,000-yard passer,

was he going to be spooked by all of that? But he came out and was like, I'd love to be a bear. I've been studying Walter Payton and Michael Jordan. I love deep dish pizza. He's been pandering excellently to Chicago. And so I think that that stuff has largely quieted down. There's another media story with Caleb, if you will allow me a minute, though. What did you make of Kyle Brandt's viral thing where he addressed the internet haters about Caleb Williams? Did you see it? a couple of weeks ago. Yes.

Yeah. So tell me, tell me what you think, because I've got to take on this too. I agreed with every word that Kyle Brandt said, but I don't think you should have said it. I thought that it platformed the worst type of people

who were anonymous. Because he didn't name a person. You know, it's not like CBS wrote a piece on K. William's and the pink phone case or the nails or that his lips appeared pink at the USC women's basketball game. He, it was just anonymous people on the internet that were meming him and it was going viral because of Elon Musk's terrible algorithm and the 4 U-Tab. No one with a name put themselves to it. And then Kyle Brandt does this beautiful five-minute piece on it.

and I felt badly because I don't know this for a fact, but when he did that, then later that day, or it might have been the next day, is when Caleb Williams put out that like 18 second video with the USC guy who was like, you know, wallet's white,

phone case is pink, lips are clear, your girl loves them. And he like laughed it off and he kept it moving. But that was the first time that I've ever seen Caleb Williams address the nail painting, the homophobic stuff, the just like the real, like, he's in the culture war. He's been used by these charlatans over at Outkick

as like a, the erosion of masculinity and what's happened to leadership. And it's really sad to see just because the guy, his mother was a nail technician and he painted his nails and he cried in the stands after a loss. Now he's this like avatar for the erosion of masculinity to these people who are just so afraid of anything, I guess, that I really wish that if someone would have put their name on that stuff, fine. If Caleb wanted to respond to it, fine. But it just, it didn't seem like it had reached a critical mass of actual people criticizing him for it. It was just anonymous people on the internet. That then when Brantz did his

piece, which again, I agreed with completely, and I think his heart was completely in the right place, it mainstreamed that stuff. And then I don't think it's a coincidence that that's when Caleb Williams responded. So what you're getting at is a real interesting question for sports radio. And I hear this sometimes on sports radio, which is, you know, much of the time, media criticism.

Somebody said something and now I'm going to get on my show and I'm going to correct it. But in the age of Twitter, you can do quote unquote media criticism about anything. You know, when I listen to my Dallas guys, it's often like, oh, there's all these people out there who want Tony Romo to come back or Tony Romo truthers. And I'm like, I don't know any of those people.

I'm sure they're in your mentions, Mr. Sports Radio host. But those people don't exist in my world. They're not important in my world. So how do you negotiate that, right? That this person exists in the universe. Is this worth me going in on them on the radio? So I really try not to do it if it's just people in my mentions. I try not to do the Twitter straw man thing.

Sometimes I'll ask poll questions to see if there's like a representative sample of people who are willing to click on something. But even that feels like there's a sampling issue because it's people who follow me. But if, you know, if Robert Griffin III says Caleb Williams should force his way out of Chicago and go to Washington, I'm going to talk about that because he's on, he's got a huge platform, he was a high draft pick, he played for Washington,

and for all I know, he knows Caleb Williams. When Colin Cowherd said it, by the way, and I had Colin on, and I disagreed with him gently about how he characterized Chicago. But I knew that Colin Coward

knew Caleb Williams. So people were like, oh, Colin Coward, hot take artist, throwing stuff against the wall. I was like, I mean, he might be a hot take artist, but he knows Caleb Williams. So we should take this person's opinion seriously.

And I got a bunch of crap from my audience. Like, oh, you're just validating cowherd because you like him, blah, blah. No, man. Caleb did one interview nationally the second as Pro Day ended that wasn't with NFL Network. It was with Colin. He's been in studio with him. He knows him. So I try very hard to, if I am talking about someone else's

opinion, explain to the audience why I feel like that opinion is worth discussing. And so when we played the Kyle Brant thing, I was like, I think that he opened up the floodgates here. So I played the Brant thing. I played Caleb's response. And then I mentioned some of those charlatans by name who did seem to start coming out on it after the Brant piece. And that was kind of our jumping off point for the conversation. But so that was like an eight or nine minute preamble to get into what my take was that I just shared with you on it because I try to present like justification to the audience of this is why I feel like these opinions are worth responding to.

Let's talk about your book, Pipeline to the Pros, how D3 small college nobody's rose to rule the NBA. You wrote it with Ben Kaplan. It's out next week. It is about the amazing number of NBA coaches and execs who have somehow come through D3 basketball and football and Mike. Fratello's case. Short list of those would include Greg Popovich, coach of the esteemed Pomona Pitzer Sage Hens, Donnie Nelson, who played for the Wheaton Thunder, former Mavs exec,

Fratello, who went to Montclair State and the Van Gundy brothers. As you put this together, what did you find out? Why did so many of these coaches and execs come through D3? Well, the short answer is once one or two people got in and broke the door to down, it started to become like how so many other people get hired, people hire the people that they know who could do the job. And they recommend the people they know. And that's how networks get created. And it's part of the reason that I was drawn to the story.

Like if you go to Wharton for business or Harvard for med school or Syracuse for broadcasting, there's an alumni network that's out there that will help you. And how do these six foot nothing, 100 and nothing guys break into the world of the NBA? it happens to Greg Popovich, and then he hires people that he knows, like Mike Boonholzer, who was his last recruit at Pomona. And then Bud is coaching the Bucks to a championship. And then he hires Sam Presti. And Sam Presti becomes the best executive in the sport.

And Sam Presti has a list of schools that he emails regularly saying, do you have anyone on your team who's smart, wants to pursue a career in basketball after they're graduated and would be interested in an entry-level position? And then he finds one for them because these guys know about the value of the background. And I also think there's something to a well-rounded liberal arts education that as ownership has changed and you have more database guys and more new money guys, they might have the ability to relate to these types of people more than they can. The 6'8 guy who played in the NBA or played at Duke.

You know, Kobe Altman, he runs the Cavs. He was a real estate broker. He works for the Cavs. Dan Gilbert, quick and loan. Mortgages. Like, relates to him. Raffel Stone was a lawyer. He runs the rockets.

He gets in there with Houston. He was a law partner. Brad Stevens worked at Eli Lilly. Like, these guys have different backgrounds and it allows them to speak to and relate to more people. And I think just as like the ownership has changed, it's made these guys much more likely to get hired. It's interesting.

Can we go through the background of Jeff Van Gundy for a little while because he's fascinating to me both as a figure and somebody who then wound up calling like 15 NBA finals in a row. He plays for the Nazareth, Pennsylvania Golden Flyers in college. and how does he get from there to becoming head coach of the New York Knicks? Okay, well, so can I, I'm going to, your question is excellent. And Jeff Van Gundy wrote the book, but I'm actually going to back up a second because Van Gundy was the only person that we could see writing the forward of the book.

And he graciously accepted and it was amazing. But he was the transfer portal before there was a transfer portal. He, so you're right, he ends up at Nazareth. He started at Yale. And then he gets to Yale. and they tell him, you know what, you're not good enough. We're not even going to let you try out for the team. So he is the only person in the history of people to transfer from Yale to Menlo Junior College.

No one's ever done that before for anything. He leaves Yale to go to Menlo Junior College to follow the love of the game. Then he leaves Menlo to go to Brockport because his dad is the coach. Then they fire his dad and he transfers again to Nazareth. So four schools, first person ever to leave Yale Go to a junior college, unbelievable. He then breaks into the NBA, Stu Jackson, super helpful, gets up there.

But the thing that's so fascinating about it is he is convinced he never would have been given a head coach if it wasn't for an interim opportunity. He survived three different regimes with the Knicks as an assistant. and then eventually Riley leaves

he is the interim head coach and even when he's been there through three regimes Riley leaves they name him the interim head coach the New York Daily News runs a column listing

gambling odds like hypothetical gambling odds for who the next head coach permanent head coach of the Knicks is going to be John Calipari is the favorite Larry Brown's the second favorite Lou Karnaseka who's 71 years old is listed at 5,000 to 1. Red Holtzman, who is 76 years old, is listed at a million to 1.

And Jeff Van Gundy is listed at 50 million to 1 in the hometown newspaper when he is the current interim head coach of the team. So these guys have just been like doubted at every turn even when they have the gig. And it was through sheer perseverance and Van Gundy credits Patrick Ewing as being a humble superstar who was cool with it. and signed off on him. And a lot of guys at his level would not have taken to coaching of someone who looked like Jeff Van Gundy. And he said that Ewing embracing him was probably one of the biggest factors in taking that interim tag and removing it.

And that's what really comes through in the book in a lot of chapters is these are the hungry guys in a lot of cases. These are the people who do not have that gilded Duke resume that you talk about. and a couple of, you know, all-star appearances in the NBA. You have Donnie Nelson and Mike Fretello chasing international players across the globe before that was a thing in the NBA, you know, going to say, I want to find this guy in Russia that we can bring back to the United States. And they're willing to do it and willing to do things that are, you know, again, within the bounds of NBA coaching and or scouting at that point in history,

just way, way, way beyond the pale. yet the uh there's a humility to it right you you graduate high school you're a good player you don't you're not ready to give up basketball so you want to play at the highest level that you can that happens to be d3 so you follow it and that's what makes you choose your college and it's like a real for the love of the game thing and then it tends to be a smaller campus community and way less resources and so you become really tight with everyone that you're going through that shared experience with and you're recognizing that your coach is doing the laundry or driving the buses or the vans to the games.

We would ask everybody that we interviewed and we did over 100 interviews for the book, what's your quintessential D3 moment? And the stories of, yeah, we had to take two vans. So I ended up driving a van, but I was a player. I was our starting shooting guard. Or we had to play, you know,

we had to cut a game short because we were in an auxiliary gym and the volleyball team was coming on next. Or there were literally zero people in attendance because it was over a break and it was snowing and people couldn't get to the game. And so it was just the teams. And just all of these things that as the NBA has gotten more specialized

than you've got an offensive coach and a defensive coach and an advanced scout and a big man coach and a shooting coach and this and a that and this, these guys did everything for these programs. And so it was like, oh, you want to hire me? to do the scouting report? Cool. You want to hire me to work the video room? Cool. You want to hire me to be a scout on the road? Cool. You want to hire me for the G League? Great. Nothing was beneath them. And as the NBA got more and more resources to hire people with unconventional skill sets, that foot in the door became easier and easier. And then these really, really smart, hardworking people who knew basketball, D3 is still a high level of basketball. They're able to rise really quickly. because of that work ethic. Is it just a coincidence

that three big figures in your book, Humby Brown, Fratello, and Jeff Van Gundy were the color analyst for 95% of the NBA finals in my lifetime? I mean, they didn't all hire each other, so in that way, it's a coincidence. But I don't think it's a coincidence

because these guys are teachers. Coaching is teaching, and the ability to teach something to an audience or teach something to a player, that was the thing that so many of these guys would tell us stories about was that some guys were like Patrick Ewing and because I was a coach, I had the respect because of the title. Other guys I had to earn it. But once I could show them that, yeah, I couldn't dunk or I couldn't do A, B, or C thing physically, but I could explain to them why they were being defended such and such way. Or I could shout out something from the bench about the other teams set that they were running

and it would happen ahead of time and it allowed them to get a steel and a fast break dunk on the other end. They know the game so well, they can teach it and explain it so well that it ends up being a really valuable thing for the Tsar of the Telestrator, Mike Retelew.

Who was an absolute joy. Or Jeff Van Gundy or Hubie, or Hubby Brown. I talked to Huby Brown for two hours and 45 minutes and he wept on the phone call. It was like talking to basketball royalty. It was so cool. A couple quick ones before you go.

you and I first met because I was introduced to you as here's a sports radio guy and I believe you're still in KC at this point, maybe just getting to Chicago, who is not only really good at sports radio, but is interested in politics and other subjects outside of the bounds of your cut and dried sports radio show. You've been known to tweet about politics, tweet about Donald Trump a time or two. How does your sports radio audience respond to that? So it's evolved. and I definitely do it a little less now because I think we've learned on some ways

and this is a little sad but that the juice isn't worth the squeeze I still do it and I almost always regret it when I do on the internet. On the air it's different in the air I'm in Chicago now it's different than Kansas City and Kansas City it was a blue spec

on a 50,000 watts station in a sea of red Missouri in Red Kansas and I had a black co-host. That was weird. That was a tough time. And I did it a lot back then. Chicago, obviously, a different political ecosystem. But I do think that one of the things that I've learned is not sticking to sports.

I never stick to sports, but that how valuable is it if you are either preaching to the choir and then you're in the echo chamber or you're just people are coming to you for spaghetti and you're serving them broccoli and then you're pissing them off and alienating your audience

or making them turn away because even people who will agree with me might be looking for spaghetti and I'm giving them broccoli and it might upset them. And so I do think that you've seen it in sports media we've kind of learned and adapted

on some of that stuff. And so, you know, when there's a shooting in Highland Park and I was at the Fourth of July parade, the town over at the exact same time, but knew, I think it ended up being like 17 people who were at that parade in Highland Park at the exact same time. Like, I'm going to talk about it and I'm going to talk about gun control and I'm going to give you my thoughts. but am I going to do everything and anything on every permutation of the Donald Trump derangement news cycle? No, but people also know where I stand on it.

And so, you know, I'm a little bit more established in that way that I don't necessarily need to. And I do think, unfortunately, maybe this is me being defeatist. I do think the idea of like reach one, teach one is it sounds really good and it's really ambitious. but I don't know how many people's minds are being changed right now. So it's not, I don't do it as much anymore because it's kind of dispiriting when you do. Last one for you, Danny. You grew up in the Chicago suburbs. You worked at your high school radio station.

And in 2004, there was a tsunami in the Indian Ocean. And you hosted a radio telethon in high school. I believe it was 15 hours. on the air. Do you want to tell the listeners of the press box, which celebrities you were able to get onto your 15-hour tsunami telethon? Wow. Good research staff here. Because I do love radiosthons. I've done one in Chicago to fund a grocery store on the west side of Chicago. And I've got another one for cancer research in honor of my brother coming up this summer in partnership with the Cubs. And yeah, my first Radiothon was my senior year of high school for tsunami relief. Every extracurricular activity needed to do something for the senior project. And that was like who we were benefiting.

Mike Greenberg was a big one. Craig Counsel, the current manager of the Cubs was a big one. Rod Blagojevich was probably the biggest headliner because that was before prison. And he was the governor of Illinois at this point. Yeah, governor of Illinois at the time before, before the scandal. He came on. Who is the makeup lady

who went to my Bobby Brown? Bobby Brown, I believe. Bobby Brown. Yeah, that was a big one for the for the girls who were part of the makeup stuff. Yeah, she was a new true alum. We were able to get her. Some local media personalities came on. Yeah, that was an ambitious

thing. Ryan Sandberg might have been on this program. Yeah, Ryan Sandberg was on it. Yeah. I forgot I forgot about that. Man, that's a long time ago. But yeah, you know, I just, I don't know. Yes, a lot of people came on that high school show, and it was a lot of fun. And we raised a decent amount of money, five figures.

And I just think that if you have these platforms, you need to do some sort of good with it from time to time. And so, yeah, I've always loved like the philanthropic side of having a microphone. Greenie, Rhino, Blago. I mean, that's to me a trifective for high school radio. That's, it does not get a good. I remember when he got indicted, we're like, oh, man, you talk to him. I'm like, I know, but the timing was just a little off.

I didn't get to ask him about prison. You're asking the hard questions. All right, the new book, Pipeline to the Pros, how D3 Small College Nobody's Rows to Rule the NBA, Danny Parkins on the score every afternoon. Danny, thanks for so much for coming on the press box. Brian, it's a real honor, man. I love the pod.

Thank you, sir. Thank you.