The Press Box - The Rodgers-McAfee Debacle, How Debates Became Politics’ In-Season Tournament, and the Barry Sanders Doc With Slate’s Joel Anderson

Episode Date: January 4, 2024

For the ‘Press Box’: Final Edition, Bryan is joined by Joel Anderson of Slate. They discuss Aaron Rodgers’s comments about Jimmy Kimmel and Pat McAfee’s response (1:44). Then, Joel shares a story of being called into the office for a tweet he liked during his time at ESPN (25:51). They discuss many memes in college football and how the national championship game may be the all-time nobody-believed-in-us game (30:04). Later, they talk about how debates have become politics’ in-season tournament (40:51). Lastly, they close with Bryan’s new rules for sports documentaries after watching the new Barry Sanders documentary (43:43). Host: Bryan Curtis Guest: Joel Anderson Producer: Brian H. Waters Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody? It's Austin Rivers from Offguard. And I've got some exciting news. Offguard hosted by me and my guy Pasha Gigi is officially moving to our own podcast feed. We are now dropping two shows every week. Me and Pasha go way back and talk so much hoops already that we figured it was time to fire up the mics and let you in on these conversations. Every week, Pasha and myself will hit on the biggest stories happening around the league. Tap into the show twice a week on our new OffGard feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Hello, media consumers. Welcome to Press Box final edition.

Brian Curtis of the Ringer here, along with producer Brian Waters. Coming up on today's pod, what Aaron Rogers said about Jimmy Kimmel on Pat McAfee's show and what it says about the new ESPN, plus the meaming of college bowl season, the nobody believed in us national championship game, how the presidential debates became the in-season tournament of politics, and some thoughts on Amazon. Barry Sanders doc. Our first guest host of 2024 is one of my favorite people

in the journalism business. He is Slate's Joel Anderson. You've heard him host three seasons of slow burn most recently on Clarence Thomas. He worked as a writer at ESPN, which he wrote a great piece about last month. He is my pal on all matters except which Texas football teams

you should root for. Joel, welcome to the press box. Oh, man, Brian, thanks for having me on. I'm a big fan of yours, as always. I've been on here a couple times, I think, before, too, in the past, right? It's a welcome back for sure. Yeah, I was pitching some slowburn,

so it's good to just settle in with you here for once now. Yeah. Yeah, today we have something very interesting before us, which is the whole Pat McAfee, Aaron Rogers, Jimmy Kimmel affair. Yeah, I mean, so I was listening to the Lebertard show, the other day. And they had Michael Sher on, the TV producer.

And he said something to the effect that one of the first HR modules you get when you come into Hollywood every year, it's like, you know, the things you can't do, you can't do. Things you can't do and things you can't do. And one of the primary things they say is you cannot call somebody a pedophile.

Right? Like that is like one of the more legally actionable things that you can do. And they did it. Right? Like that's... Or at least, implied that there is some kind of link between him, meaning Jimmy Kimmel and Jeffrey Epstein. Yeah.

Yeah. And I don't know, man. Would it so, I'm not surprised that Aaron Rogers did it, I guess. Like, I mean, well, actually, I don't know. Let me ask you, do you, are you surprised that he did it? Because I kind of go back and forth on that. He's so reckless. I mean, he's challenged Anthony Fauci to COVID-19 in vaccine debates.

he seems really like reckless right now so like if you told me that in a vacuum that Aaron Rogers said that about somebody or accused somebody of that it wouldn't be a huge surprise but that to actually see it aired on ESPN

like that is I'm like wow like this is not just on a Pat McAfee show you know somewhere on YouTube or whatever like this is the prime this is one of the longest you know this is the I think the show is on on air longer than any other show at ESPN during the day. So

that was jarring, I think. I think the recklessness of it almost obscures how awful it is. Yeah. So Roger's exact words were they got talking about these documents that a judge just unsealed in the Epstein case. And he said, there's a lot

of people including Jimmy Kimmel who are really hoping that doesn't come out. Which I guess was intended as a big laugh line. Yeah. I mean, the thing is, they didn't laugh. Like, you actually, it's kind of funny because I think every time that Aaron Rogers has like a punchline, like on that show, every time I see it, everybody's like, whoa. Like, there's never just laughter. Like, nobody is ever like, man, that was hilarious, Aaron.

It's always like, man, why did you say that? Now we have to respond to this. But, yeah, no, it is. I mean, it's awful. I mean, because, I mean, the Epstein stuff isn't really a joke. And, I mean, if you're fluent in internet culture, it kind of becomes a joke. because you can, you know, people or those accusations are levied or people use it to, you know, defame Bill Clinton or whatever.

You know, like, it's always been something to kind of loosely thrown around in internet culture. But when it steps outside of that, I think that's why you saw Jimmy Kimmel respond in the way that he did because he's like, hey, wait a minute. This isn't just some Twitter stuff. Like, this is a very serious and horrible accusation you're making about thing that is actually not funny at all. This is his tweet that began.

dear asshole an asshole was spelled with two A's he denied any links having flown with visited done anything with Jeffrey Epstein and at the end said your reckless words put my family in danger keep it up and we will debate the facts further in court I was interested how everybody kept harping on the fact that Jimmy Kimmel works for ABC which means he works for Disney the same corporate parent of ESPN and I was like would this have been okay or better somehow if Jimmy Kimmel had hosted a on CBS? Yeah. I get that there's like a corporate intrigue.

What does Bob Eiger do? What does Jimmy Petaro do about this? But it's not okay no matter where Jimmy Kimmel words. Oh, yeah. If he had just done this about like Jimmy Fallon, you know what I mean? Like it still would be terrible. Like this is not. But I guess the behind the scenes intrigue is is always there when it comes to ESPN.

Because everybody wants to see who's really in charge. What does that company really believe in? and it sort of can elide the broader questions about, like, this person that you platform, you know, every week on your show, they're saying actionable things, they're saying terrible things, accusing people of things, spreading misinformation. And it's not as fun to deal with that.

It's more fun to deal with, hey, did Jimmy Kimmel call Bob Eiger? You know, do you think he called in Bob Eiger? Do you think he's going to sue them? Do you think that Pat McAfee is going to have to respond in some sort of way? which he did, but yeah. Let's get to that explanation. So Aaron Rogers says his thing on Tuesday, on Wednesday, McAfee offered this.

So, like, we obviously don't like the fact that we're associated with anything negative ever. We like our show to be an uplifting one, a happy one, a fun one, but it's because we talk shit and try to make light of everything. Some things, obviously, people get very pissed off about, especially when they're that serious allegations. So we apologize for being a part of it. Can't wait to hear what Aaron has to say about it. Hopefully, those two will just be able to settle this, you know?

Not court-wise, but be able to chit-ch-chis. step move along. Because remember, you're allowed to disagree with people's opinions. You're allowed to say like, oh, I don't... Right. So, Brian, let me ask you this. If you heard, if you had somebody that worked for you, and they had had somebody on air that had implied a very wealthy, prominent person was a pedophile. And they said, oh, we were just talking shit. You know, and I hope these guys can talk about, I can't wait to have Aaron back on to talk about this again. Would you think that person got it? Did you think that that person and got the extent of the trouble and how bad would happen there was.

Would you believe? I would not, especially when you did the sports radio thing of teasing Ford. Tune in next Tuesday when Aaron Rogers addresses what Aaron Rogers just said. No, I wouldn't at all. And I also wouldn't count that really as an apology. I saw all these headlines everywhere from CNN to the athletic saying, Pat McAfee apologizes. His words were, we apologize for being part of it.

I mean, that is not, that does not functionally address anything that was said on his show at all. It's, it's sort of like we, and it was almost, you heard that little intro, we apologize for something negative happening on this otherwise positive and uplifting podcast slash radio program slash TV show. Yeah. I mean, he, he's entirely focused. on the wrong thing. That, yo, man, like, you know, you can't just think that this is a political,

this is not a political disagreement. You know, like, I think that's actually what he summed it up as, oh, we just got in the middle of a political disagreement between this guy on the right and this guy on the left. And no, like, what happened is that something really horrible happened is that you implied this guy was part of a, you know, a sex abuse ring. And now you're saying that, oh, yeah, I'm sorry.

We just want to have positive things on here. It's like, no, man, you really need to. And I assume that he's going to have to apologize at some point, that he's going to have to issue a more formalized, serious response to Jimmy Kimmel, because you're right. And I saw the same headlines that you did. Like, that was not an apology at all. That was just like, hey, man, we're sorry that happened,

but not, like, we're sorry for platforming this guy and allowing it to happen. And he says talking shit, which is interesting, because I think in a lot of ways, the precursor to Aaron Rogers Tuesdays are the podcast my boss, Bill Simmons did with Kevin Durant. And those had this feeling of here as an athlete that you watch on television, that you don't hear in that setting all that much.

And he is saying things about other people in the league, about basketball, about the media, about whatever it is. They just feel different, right? And that is part of the fun, right? Like he's just doing this. There is talking shit and then there is that. implying that somebody is part of some giant

or is associated with or knows that guy. That's not the same thing at all. Even if you had just wanted to make a joke about the COVID-19 vaccine again, he's like, well, we'll, you know, let's do a race for charity to Pfizer or something. You know, whatever, or whatever the joke that Aaron Rogers wants to make about the COVID-19 thing. Yeah, that would be talking shit. Like, that would be like maybe the, you know, the level at which the point is like, you probably shouldn't say that.

Like, you know, I don't agree with you on your thoughts about the vaccine, but that's sort of within bounds. What you did is way, way beyond that. And, you know, I think the thing is that I don't, you know, it's funny that you mentioned Bill and KD's. You know what I actually thought of? I thought of when the Lebertad show sort of mainstreamed Aaron Rogers. I don't remember Aaron Rogers giving a lot of interviews,

especially to the national audience, until Lebertart started having him on several years ago, right? Was that the first? Was that his first? I mean, I remember him doing a lot of reporters, you know. He was definitely interested in talking to the media. Yeah. But in terms of, you're talking to like a kind of like an interview.

Let's what is on Aaron Rogers' mind kind of interview. Yeah, because, I mean, it got into what he was reading, the trips he had taken, um, his interest in jeopardy. Like, I mean, I remember that that first came up. And then it did give him a little bit of a chance to talk about, you know, his talent. Because, you know, the gag was that Dan and all the other guys were so fascinated with his talent. And he was the best quarterback they'd ever seen. And so he kind of indulged that a little bit.

But it also gave you a window into Aaron's mind and what he was doing off the court. He was trying to sort of pitch himself as a renaissance guy, right? I'm well-read. I travel. I do all this other stuff. And he never really, you know, you know, dipped his toe into this other and into the darker sides of that until later. But I remember that, you know, Lebertar, and it's all part of like this Lebertard showed a loathsome contrarian pipeline.

Like he's just, you know, it's like Dana White, Donald Trump, Jorge Mousfidol, Pat Seijack, Aaron Rogers. So the, you wrote a piece recently about ESPN and how it had changed from the time in which you and I somewhat improbably worked there. until now. What do you think this episode says about ESPN in 2024? Man, I think I need to know what they're going to do first, right? I mean, because it's not like ESPN has not had controversies before, where people have said things out of step, whether in interviews on other outlets or whatever else,

or, you know, people have said things. It made missteps on air. But I will be interested to see what, if anything, happens. Because I think that would be more telling of what this new era of ESPN is. But I would say, to your point, if you have a weekly collaboration with someone, right, and this is what the Aaron Rogers thing is with Pat McAfee. And we know what Aaron Rogers says and believes and the allegations he's made about other people and, you know, being part of, you know, I got a little like a term of the Illuminati.

If you have this weekly collaboration with someone and you invite them on and don't do any pushback, there's never any pushback to what he says. How am I not to believe that you don't support that? Like, you could see somebody saying, ESPN must be okay with this. Like, that's fine. Like, they invite this guy back on all the time. He's, you know, spreading all this vaccine disinformation or whatever. But they must be okay with it.

So I think that's a little less nuanced, but I need to know what the punishment is going to be. I mean, because what did you think? Because what do you think about what it means about it? I think we have enough evidence at this point to say that ESPN is okay with it. And if you want some more evidence, look around those articles that all included the sentence

ESPN had no comment about what was said on the Macfee show. Like, and no comment in this case means, shrug emoji. That has been their approach to almost all these things. I mean, this is, you know, Jimmy Petaro, president of ESPN,

has decided that there are going to be a couple of mega, megastars at ESPN who are going to have the, whatever you want to call it, the ability to do whatever they want and to say

whatever they want. And this is going to cross lines that when they were crossed previously at ESPN, it was an absolute internal, you know, emergency. And now we're just kind of like, eh, eh, okay. Now, this one may be different just because of what was said and, you know,

who it affected, all that kind of stuff. I don't doubt that. But I think that general principle of shrug, it happened, okay, let's move on to what happens next week is pretty established at this point. You don't think so. You don't think that they're like, panicked behind the scenes. They're just like, man, what the hell are we supposed to do? trying to broker conversations,

Jimmy, please don't sue him, you know, that kind of stuff? I think that's happening. Well, I think there's a corporate problem here with this particular comment. But I think the principle that Stephen A and Pat McAfee are, you know, in terms of what they can do on the air,

the most powerful people in the history of ESPN, I think that stands. You know, and when you're talking about the Levitart show, I saw that he had Jamel and Pablo and some of the former people people, ESPN people on there, and obviously Dan is too. The implication of them talking about this is, wait a second, where was my artistic freedom when I worked at ESPN? Right. You know, Jamel did not want to get into Epstein on SC6, but she certainly wanted to do things that her bosses

were like, I don't want, that is not my vision of the show. Your vision of the show isn't my vision of the show. That was always the friction at ESPN. You know, what could you do? Going way back to Dan and Keith doing Sports Center. And I think it's clear now that, you know, it is not an executive-driven network, at least in these cases, it is a host-driven network, which is way, way different than the old ESPN. That's true. That's true. And I do sort of wonder, you know, it kind of feels like I know McAfee gets his money from ESPN,

but he's sort of separate and apart from there. Like you said, I mean, he's probably one of the more powerful people that have ever been on air right now. And actually, I was thinking about that during college football weekend where he's right at the center of the game day panel. Like, he's in the middle of it now, right? So that's a huge deal. And so, yeah, I mean, I think that certainly the delay

and the refusal to outright say this guy's overstepped, we're going to deal with it internally. Like, they're probably trying to size up the power dynamics here, right? That they're just like, well, we did bring in. Pat because we want to sort of make up for the years of criticism that we were too woke. And, you know, we had this bar stool collaboration that failed after one episode, you know. And it's an attempt, like Pat McAfee is clearly like this attempt to way back, this disaffected audience of male sports fans, most of them white, about who get their news from like gambling

and fantasy sports, like sites, right? Like this is, this, Pat McAfee is like their counterpunch to that. And so they're reasonably probably thinking, well, if we come down too hard on this guy, he could leave. Like, he doesn't need us. He never needed us. He took a pay cut to come here. And also, we don't want to be seen as like the same sort of nanny state that we were before, right? Or whatever.

You know, it was just like, ah, you know, we're always going to call you in and stuff. And we could talk about the kind of shit that I got called in on later, you know, when I was like, I didn't even put everything in the story that I wrote there. but they may just be like, well, you know, this is a different company now. And we don't have to do it like that. A different company for some people, you know. I mean, I was smiling last summer when Stephen A. Smith tweeted, please donate to Chris Christie's presidential campaign. A tweet that is still up, by the way.

But if Field Yates to pull a name out of a hat was like, here is some fantasy football info. And by the way, please donate to Marion Williamson. I don't think that tweet would still be up. I think that would be off. That's fair. Yes. You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right.

And I mean, but you're right. I mean, the thing is, is like, there are only so many people left at ESPN. Like, they've really whittled down, like, the number of people that are on screen. And the ones that they've decided to put in front of you every time where this NBA playoffs, get up, you know, whatever, all the other shows, which is Stephen A, Pat McAfee. I mean, really is it? Is it anybody? I mean, those are the two, right? Those are the two.

I think Buck and Eggman are very powerful, though, obviously they're doing, you know, doing something in a very different way, which is calling a game. He probably put Scott Van Pelt on that list because he has a sports center that is essentially the Scott Van Pelt show very different than previous sports centers. But yeah, these are the two, I think, that have the elbow room. Yeah. And I guess, like, I don't, the thing is, I don't know what ESPN's confidence anymore is, right? And when I first started working there in 2017, I thought of ESPN as this robust, confident

machine. They had ruled four generation and a half and that they didn't necessarily have to respond to their critics and we can make bold moves. And everybody is replaceable. Like Keith Oberman, Bill Simmons, whatever, we don't need anybody. And I don't know if they believe that anymore now, right? Like they've got enough data to know that their advantage doesn't exist in quite the same way and it's only getting worse. And they're like, wait, do we need Stephen A. Smith? Do we need Pat McAfee? I don't know. They're like, we've cut a lot of people. Like, what are we going to have people here to watch when they're not watching games?

And so I wonder if like some of this is also from a defensive crouch where they're just like, well, I don't, we don't know where we belong in the media ecosystem anymore. And people, Shannon Sharp, we're recording this on a Tuesday. It's a day after Shannon Sharp released a podcast interview with Kat Williams. It just totally took over the internet. Shannon Sharp works for ESPN, and he made his biggest news. He had his biggest podcast day on something that's totally unrelated to anything ESPN would care about. And I just wonder if ESPN is just like, we need these people to be on our air and to do

these sort of things. And so, you know, we got to be, maybe they're saying things and doing things that are out of step with what previous stars have done and other employees are able to do. But we might need these guys. And we don't want to scare them off because they can see, they ease, you can clearly see. that they're like, we know that the independence angle is like a viable one. I think you hit it exactly on the head. Because the ESPN that we worked at, they were worried about FS1.

They were worried about their other cable bundle competitor. Okay, we can't let Michael and Jamel go to FS1. We can't do this. We need to give salaries and protect ourselves against that. This ESPN is different because what if McAfee just goes independent? And he's taking people that don't want to pay for things, don't want to pay for cable. And just that's where they get their sports news. Same thing with Stephen A, which I want to talk about more about in a second.

And I just think, yes, it is. Part of it is from uncertainty and you might even call it fear that we just have to have these people, even if it's just part of them, right? Even if Shannon's giving an interview, even if Stephen A has this completely other podcast where he talks about George Santos and other subjects of national import that doesn't have anything to do with us, we need them under our umbrella. up. Right. And to do that, we have to play by different rules. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I think it's, it's clearly fair, right?

You know, at first I was, I've gained in confidence since I talked last time here a second ago. Like, since after I heard you, your answer. Here we go. Here we go. Building me up. It absolutely is fear. And I think that's kind of the sad thing because, I mean, one of the benefits or one of the things about working for ESPN that appealed to me is that, oh, they don't have to answer anybody. man you know what i'm saying you do it like obviously like internally like you're not it's kind of like like working anywhere else like you know that you can't say anything that would that's stupid enough you don't put your job at risk but i work for a company that can protect me and will defend me for the most part or like i don't have to worry about you know a critic coming out and taking me down

and like whatever um but i don't think it's like that anymore and yeah man that's just that's kind sad because it was nice to have like a sports media behemoth. You know, like, I mean, obviously there's a lot of, at least it was when we worked there. Yeah, yeah, right. You know, just kind of, it was kind of nice to have that. And this, obviously, like, there's a democratization in sports media that is good in some ways. But it was kind of nice to have somebody that, you know, you thought that the content was all

that mattered, like the work. And like, we'll get it out there. that's all that matters. All this other stuff doesn't matter. But now it's just it's clear that they're responding. They're responding to people. They're responding to the market and they don't know what to do. It's one detail I had not seen in any or maybe most of the articles about the McAfee

situations that Pat McAfee produces his own show. This is not an ESPN produced show. And that's another data point in here's what's different about ESPN in 2020. He pays all his own people. Uh-huh. And the deal with Aaron Rogers, right, all under that, like that, that's different, right? And that's, again, part of one of the new perks of being a star. You're your own producer. You're your own, you don't work for ESPN, quote, unquote, in the same way that guys and gals did in the past. Yeah. I mean, I didn't, did you even know that, I mean, I didn't even know that that was a thing that was possible to do, right? But isn't that also kind of part of what ESPN is doing, like the Manning brothers, right? Like the Omaha Productions. Produce its kind of the same deal. Yeah, they produce that show themselves, right? And so I think ESPN is seeding more. First, I think also maybe in some ways it sort of offloads a lot of the responsibility for ESPN,

a smaller company than it used to be, right? Like maybe there's some of that. But also it's just like, well, you know what? Like, let's let them take on some of the burden of some of the paperwork and all the other stuff. Like, let them handle that. Yeah. And when it comes to a situation like this, I'm like, I'm always like, well, no, no. Oh, it was on your air.

So this is a proclamation that was made on ESPN. So I don't know if there's much of a distinction here. Nobody cares about who produces it if it's on your air. Right? You know what I mean? It's just like, I'm sorry. Like it's on ESPN. You're going to.

And I'm sure they're attorneys. And I'm going to be like, well, we understand that this was a Pat McAfee production. So ESPN, you're off the hook here. Like, no, ESPN. If there was something that we're going to come through a civil court, ESPN was probably going to be named in there as well. I mean, that's obviously far afield. In your piece for Slate, you talked about your editor calling you.

When Roseanne Barr had been deep-sixed by ABC, the implication was, Hey, Joel, no tweets about Roseanne Barr. Tell me what else you were called in for that didn't make the piece during your time at ESPN. This is probably a lower level would. So I'm trying to remember. But there was a time when ESPN, and it was one of the multiple major college sex abuse scandals. So I can't remember if this is Michigan State, if this is Ohio State. It was one, you know, something along those lines.

And we had written a story that sort of borrowed from the reporting. You know, a local news outlet had led the reporting of that. And ESPN had sort of like built on it with, you know, with its own reporting at top of that as well. And so there were people criticizing it on Twitter. You know what I mean? And like, I don't know about you, Brian, but like for me, when I like something, it absolutely is not an endorsement.

For me, a lot of times it's just like, this is here. I'm coming back to it. Like, I just, you know, I like, I like something on Twitter. And then I'm like, okay, and I go back later. I'm like, okay, this is what I want to read. Sometimes, now I start sending stuff to my DMs, but whatever. But so what happened is I like the tweet that criticized ESPN's reporting on this.

and I could, like maybe three hours later, I get a call from one of my boss. It's not the same boss that called me about Roseanne. He's like, hey, what's the deal with you liking that tweet? You know, why did you like that tweet? And I was like, you know, to be honest, like I was just trying to place it so I could come back and read what they were saying later. Like, it wasn't an endorsement of that. And he's like, oh, you should be more careful about that because people noticed that you

like that tweet. And I'm like, what? You know, I mean, and so it was like one of those scary. things. I don't know what else they're telling. What else are they paying attention to? I'm like, I don't like anything on Twitter. You know what I mean? Like, I like profane jokes, whatever. And I did not know that I was being observed like that. Me, I'm a nobody, Brian. Like, I was a nobody at ESPN. Like, I appeared on TV maybe twice. Same, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't go on any ESPN podcast when I was there, like, or radio shows. Like, maybe a couple of radio shows

when I, you know, reported on college football, whatever. But I was a, nobody. And the idea that me, somebody let low level was under that kind of observation. I mean, I was just like, man, that's crazy. I mean, again, by this point, I'm like, I don't belong here anymore. You know what I'm saying? So, yeah. So it was, it was, it was, it was, it was a sad realization because it's a cool place to work. But you're just like, man, what are y'all? Why are y'all doing that? Like, that's crazy. One prediction before we move on. We're talking about Stephen A. Smith, doing some stuff inside ESPN and now some stuff outside of ESPN.

If I can predict anything with one billion percent uncertainty, it's when Stephen A's contract is up, he is going to be outside of ESPN. Maybe he'll own a thing, produce a thing that ESPN shows. Maybe he'll be part of their ecosystem. But you just, I mean, the idea he's going to cultivate his own cast of co-hosts and sidekicks and whatever it is and have his own stuff. And if I could just predict anything, that is exactly what will happen.

And you know, you're dead on. And also, he's kind of called his shot because he said he wants to be a late night talk show host, right? That is something that he's been pretty clear about throughout the years and that he's got, whenever I hear Stephen A. Smith give interviews, he doesn't talk about doing anything in sports anymore. He doesn't talk about, I want to do this. I've got this dream to do this kind of thing. All of his projects, everything he wants to work on is not the kind of thing that would likely err on ESPN. And I think that like it seems, doesn't it seem like he, I mean, Steve. Stephen A. Smith always seems like he's having a good time, but he seems like he's having a really good time having his own podcast and his own, like, you know, like talking about Latinas and, you know, horniness and everything else. So, I mean, I mean, he seems to be having a lot more fun. So, yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And, yeah, that'll be, I don't think ESPN will want to let him go, like, totally. But, yeah, I can absolutely, he has his own studio. He didn't build that own studio for ESPN, right? No, he did not. No, it's going to be instead of, I work for ESPN and I always.

also do whatever I want. It's going to be I don't work for ESPN and then I do whatever I want. Let us transition here to college football. Yeah. Bull season is almost over. And I got to tell you, the meaming of bowl season has been really strange to me. I get on Twitter and all the people you and I follow, everybody is tweeting a picture of a Pop-Tart mascot lowering itself into a toaster. and I don't actually know what happened in the game like before this podcast I was like what was the result of the Pop Tarts bowl again what was the result of the Cheez-It Bowl

but it's all now just like a weird Twitter content what did you feel about bowl season this time around well I mean I kind of feel the way that I've been feeling about it for years which is increasingly less relevant to it's increasingly

increasingly that's relevant to the bigger picture of college football. Like, it used to be that it was part of a whole, like it was a tableau, if you will, a tapestry. You know, this game affected the rankings in this way, or this, you know, affected the potential for a team being named a national championship or whatever, right? Like, a lot of the games had implications, and there were less. But now it's just like, I mean, they've told us for years

that bowl games are just TV content, man, right? And so this is just an extension to that. Like, ESPN created a lot of these bowl games just to have stuff to air. And so when that happens, it's like people clearly care less about the product because we're talking about now six and six teams, eight and four teams. Like, Brian, you saw the video of Eastern Michigan getting into a fight with South Alabama, right, after the game. South Alabama kicked

Eastern Michigan's ass. And this Eastern Michigan guy like why South Alabama's doing its alma monitor, it's fans. This guy from Eastern Michigan just runs up behind the South Alabama player and hits this shit

out of the back of the head and starts a brawl. Why are those teams in a bowl game? Like 35 years ago, like we're not even talking like Eastern, like there were like 18 bowl games. Eastern Michigan's not there. And so we've

the valuing of the bowl season has been happening for years. And so, like, this just seems like the natural evolution, right? Like, that it becomes not just, you know, random TV content, but it's also just random meme content. Here's another part of this that's fascinating to me. So college football is just covered very differently than the NFL, as you know.

And part of it is that Spencer Hall and his gang and now the Sickos Committee have sort of given everyone this idea, this ethic, whatever you call it, that college football are not just Michigan and Alabama. College football is staying up late and watching that game in Hawaii and the announcer has a cool shirt on and it's finding a zero-star recruit at Wyoming

who has an awesome name and an awesome look in his little TV picture and celebrating him. What's funny is it gets to bowl season, as you say, this degraded bowl season. And then we're like, okay, you see college football. football tour, be like, now what do we do? Because we're supposed to like everything, right? We're supposed to celebrate everything, even if it's just a very out of the way and strange and weird.

And it, to me, it was right on the line of like, are we just tweeting pictures of the Pop-Tart guy? And everybody in the Pop-Tarts boardroom is high-fiving being like, look at this. Look at all this free advertising we got in this, even if it's in this hyper-ironic way. It was just, it was a weird moment where things were bending into each other and the way I didn't expect. Well, I don't, so when you brought up the Pop-Tart bowl, I googled it. And I was like, oh, okay, that's the game that was NC State versus Kansas State. And then I was like, man, I don't remember anything about that game. I don't, you know, I've, let me make sure I got to look back at Google to see who won that game. Okay, it was, man, it's kind of wild. Okay,

Kansas State won it. And, like, I can't name one player that was in that game. Like, could you, like, I know Will Howard's not the quarterback at K State anymore because it's a transfer portal. So it used to be, like, 20 years ago, I probably would have known. Maybe I would have watched a few plays. Like, I remember watching, you know, Texas Tech playing somebody in the Hancock Bowl. And I just, like, I remember watching that game.

I'm like, oh, Byron Hanspard's out there. Oh, that's pretty cool. You know what I'm trying to get a few carries. That's a great name, by the way. Yeah, Byron Hanspard, man, Desota. The Soto's finest. And I just, I don't, you know, like, none of that seems to matter anymore. And so, yeah, like, it is a marketing opportunity.

I mean, TV exists for advertisers. And the Pop-Tart bowl, like, they did the really smart thing. They're like, let's lean in all this. And the Duke's Mayo Bowl. Like, let's dump, let's cover a coach in Mayo. There's another one. And everybody's like, look him. They're dumping mayonnaise on the guy again.

And I'm like, the marketing part of this worked in a way that the pool. on wheat eater bowl of our youth never quite did. People aren't making fun of the bowl because it's named after a crazy thing. They're celebrating the bowl because it's named after a crazy thing. Yeah, yeah. And I guess, like, cynically, have we bought into his capitalism, you know, consumed us all, ultimately? I don't know.

But we're so bored with the balls that capitalism has consumed us, yeah. But you know what, Brian? I'll just say, like, I much prefer the absurd. to the teeth gnashing over, like, Florida State not giving a shit about the Orange Bowl. Like, I'm just like, I don't care, right? Like, let's have fun with this thing, you know, to the extent that the kids that are playing on these teams can have fun, let them have that experience. But, like, we don't have to pretend that these games mean the same thing that they meant

when we were kids. Like, it just doesn't. And we don't have to sit here and lie to ourselves and ask those kids to lie to themselves. and put their careers and limbs at risk for the greater glory of a Pop-Tart executive, you know what I'm saying? Totally agree. Last college football thought I had for you

is this may be an all-time nobody believed in us national championship game on Monday between Michigan and Washington. We've all seen the Michigan versus everybody branding. And Washington has been an absolutely on this, nobody believed in us,

tear forever. This is Breland Trice, their excellent pass rush. who was great against Texas. Just the level of disrespect we get, I can't really understand it, but it helps us because it makes us have our backs against the wall as we go into these games, ready to play even harder because we are the underdogs.

That is the best defensive player for the number two team in the country. You played running back at TCA. So tell what is the wide indulge in the nobody believed in us bit again and again and again. I'm going to give Washington a little grace here because I can understand the disrespect because they beat Oregon earlier in the year, right? They beat Oregon in a game that was a classic.

And then they play them again in the Pactual Championship and they were like a touchdown underdog to a team that they already be. Yeah, nine. Yeah, it was like nine points. Yeah. And I'm just like, I could totally be like, hey, man, that's disrespectful. Like, come on. Like, we went undefeated.

We beat them already. come on. And then to beat them again, and then I think they were an underdog going into the game against your Longhorns, correct? They were four points, I think, four, four and a half. Yeah. And I saw I kind of, like, if they were pulling this stuff against Oregon State or Washington State, I'd be like, yeah, I mean, you guys, like, cool it. But Washington kind of earns it. But yeah, I mean, like, I mean, a real underdog is TCU beating Michigan in the national semi-final, right? Well, that's a team where, you know, everybody's like, man, this team doesn't, they're not that good. They're getting away with it. And then to actually beat that

team, you know, the one of the winningest programs in the history of college football, like, that is a real upset. You know, if Washington goes on to win the national championship, we'll be like, that was a really good team. And you still might not be able to convince me they were the best team of the country, but they are the champion or whatever. But like, nobody is going to be like, wow, I didn't see Washington coming from anywhere because we've seen a I'm in all season long. But I get while Washington indulges in this because it's so seductive. It really is.

It really is. Michigan one is really funny. I was reading a book. Are you tired of them? Yes, I am tired of Michigan. I don't think we understand what kind of alumni basis. Even in journalism, we're going to activate if they win on Monday. Oh, my God.

Guy, it's going to be rough. We've got to stop this. We've got to stop this. We have to be done. We are all. But we are, it really is Michigan versus everybody. Like UW, you've got your America's team on Monday. Oh my gosh, yes.

And I was reading a book the other day and it mentioned like the bad boy Pistons of the 90s. And you know, Bill Lambert throws a forearm. And then it's like, oh, it's everybody versus the pistons. It's everything. And that's what Michigan's doing. Like, well, we did the sign stealing thing. Oh, you're all mad at us. Well, yeah, that's like what happens.

Yeah. Do that. And it's like, oh, everybody's against us. Well, yeah, that is true. That is what happens when there's a big scam. handle. Absolutely. And it's not just that, too.

It's that they always held themselves out as a different sort of football power, right? We're not like the Ohio states or the Alabama's. We don't engage in the dirty back, you know, the backroom tactics that those schools use to build their programs. Our kids are students. And, you know, the people that go here with this upstanding moral program built in the image of both Schembeckler. And it's like, come on, man.

We're just like, nobody wants to hear that shit anymore, bro. You know what the deal is. And yeah, I mean, like, I mean, I, and this is one of those instances in which the fan base really has taken on the personality of the coach because I cannot think of a head coach who's had more public incidents where the other coaches have like openly hated him. You remember like when he shook, he had that handshaking incident with the Detroit Lions, D.C., Jim Schwartz after a game and then the Pete Carroll, what's your deal thing? You know, so like, I mean, he's as unlikable as the rest of the fan base. So you can kind of see how that, you can kind of see how they've kind of indulged that as they've gone along here. Oh my gosh. In media days the other day when he was saying Jesus would have been a five-star recruit.

And you're like, oh, now we're back to the funny Twitter, Jim Harbaugh of like five or six years ago. Are we, how many Harbaugh personalities have we cycled through? That was a, that was a throwback. Somebody texted me about that. I thought that was funny. All right, quickly, because I want to talk to you about Barry Sanders and the Barry Sanders doc. There is going to be a presidential debate next week. This may be hard to believe.

It's Wednesday. It's in Iowa. It's on CNN. The candidates that qualified are Ron DeSantis, Nikki Haley, and Donald Trump. But Donald Trump is not going to be at the debate because he's going to be on Fox for a town hall that will be airing at exactly the same time. Have the Trumpless debates become the in-season tournament of politics?

If you win, you raise a banner, but, you know, Yeah, I mean, I think I think that's the perfect comparison because it's like, I mean, the Lakers won and like, the Lakers won the N-season tournament and what good has it done? Last night, fire ham was trending on Twitter. So, yeah, I mean, I think that's absolutely dead on. And I mean, look, man, I tuned into the first couple of debates. I thought it's kind of funny. Yeah, I just, you know, seeing these guys and, you know, I just, you know, I remember all the moments from 20. 16 and 2020, like when Ben Carson turns around the wrong way and goes on stage and stuff.

So I'm like, I want to see those moments recaptured again. And then slowly but surely, as all the people get whittled away, you're just like, I mean, Ron DeSantis isn't charismatic enough to hold my attention. Although I did, did you watch the DeSantis, Gavin Newsom debate? I did not, unfortunately, or fortunately. Okay. I caught a few minutes of it. And I thought that was actually really interesting, because I thought Newsom was really good. But yeah, I mean, Trump has, Trump is really smart. God, am I going to call them smart in public?

Trump is really savvy and that he has figured out that none of the old political shit matters. Like, I don't have to have a ground game. I don't need to go visit people at a terrible diner with gravy in Iowa. Like, I don't have to do any of that stuff, man. Like, you're going to tune in and watch me. Not everybody can do that, but he figured out, like, it's kind of like how Dion doesn't really go out.

on recruiting trips. You know what I'm saying? He's like, you come to me. You know what I'm saying? Comani McLean, like, I'll go when I need to go, but I'm not going to go to see everybody. And I think that's kind of like what Trump is on. He's just like, why would I debase myself?

You're like, I've seen the polls. Like, yeah, like, I mean, tonight we'll see who has the honor of being the Lakers or the Pacers or whatever this debate is. It'll be, you know, DeSampus. We're so excited. We don't even quite know when this debate is happening. All right.

Yeah, right. Last up, you and I finally. caught up on the Barry Sanders doc, which is called Bye Bye Barry. It's on Prime. I have some new rules for sports documentaries I'd like to throw at you. One is that every documentary

needs a talking head salary cap. You can have Michigan's very own Jeff Daniels. You can have Eminem, but we are going to have to put Tim Allen in the transfer portal. We don't need all those people talking about Barry Sanders.

I mean, I mean, we got Eminem's reaction to Barry Sanders' retirement. Like, that was the first response they have after he announced their retirement of document. I'm like, that's absolutely not the guy I wanted to hear from. Rule number two, every doc should ask more interesting questions to the people they interview. This documentary had Barry's offensive lineman, Lomas Brown, and Kevin Glover. They were really cool. I really liked having them in the documentary. but I kept waiting for someone to ask, Joel,

what was it like to block for Barry Sanders? Like, wouldn't that be interesting to know? Like, you're not just running off tackle, right? Your responsibilities. And sometimes I bet you blew your block and Barry Sanders ran for 18 yards. Can we just get an interesting question or two like that? You know, man, I'm so glad you said that because, Brian,

like, do you remember the scene from the last dance when they asked Dennis Rodman about the science of rebounding? Right. And I don't think the last dance was a perfect documentary, but I liked that moment. Like, it really comes to mind. You have Barry Sanders in front of, like, obviously you had access to him. We didn't talk about where do he get his footwork from? Or, like, how you learned to run like that?

Like, who were your idols? Like, how did you learn to play like that? When did you know that you were different? Like, we didn't get any of that. There was just, and I don't mean to be this hobby, and you got your other rules, but there just was no further interrogation. You know what I mean? Like it was just, we've got a talk, we got a storyline here. We got to stick to it.

Yeah. And that brings me to my third rule, which is that every sports documentary about a great player needs an angle. Yeah. Yeah. The angle cannot be Barry Sanders was a problem. We know Barry Sanders was a problem. We watched football.

And it's interesting this one because it kind of opens with this idea of why did he walk away from the game. And then this kind of secondary idea with Dan Patrick talking about interviewing him, right when he was the number one draft pick of the Lions in 1989 and saying like he was very hard to get him to talk he didn't want to talk about himself so we kind of set it up that way i'm not sure either of those things actually paid off all that much in the end what did you think yeah no i think that's absolutely right that they spent a lot i thought they spent way too much time focusing on his like humility and modesty and there was like no there was more it was like a they were

like, okay, so we've got all this footage of Barry. Eminem said he'll do a song for us and he'll be in it, like, let's do it. But they didn't, it was like they weren't curious about Barry's life, right? Like, I just didn't, I didn't hear or see anything in there that made me think, wow, they really got to the heart of Barry's life. Like, for instance, the scene, like, so they go to London at the end, right? Like, they're trying to answer the question about, why did Barry, you know, like, this is one of the driving questions of the documentary, why did Barry?

Sanders give up on football, you know, ostensibly near the end of his peak. And they go over there and he's just like, oh, you know, I just kind of, you know, the team wasn't that great. And, you know, I just kind of didn't have the fire anymore. And like, that, like, that wasn't really a payoff. Like, first of all, it felt like Barry and his sons didn't know each other that well. Like, it just seemed very stilted and awkward.

And maybe being on camera is responsible for that. But, okay, if the loss of fire, if it's hard to explain, which is what Barry says, then get somebody to do that, pull that out of him or get somebody to talk about it in an interesting way. Because I do think, you know, especially in light of the last 20, 25 years in football research and we've seen players quit earlier now, like, maybe looking at it through that lens would have been more interesting than just being like, well, I don't know, I just kind of got tired of playing football, man. Like, that's kind of how it ended. And I'm like, well, what am I supposed to take from that? Totally. And I actually thought his, his,

his dad is who passed away back in 2011 is a fascinating character. Oh my God. His documentary. His name is William Sanders. And he has this immortal thing where he says, okay, there's like the top three running backs in NFL history, number one, Jim Brown, number two, William Sanders, aka me and number three, Barry Sanders, which is so funny. And I actually thought the dad was going to figure into the retirement somehow or there was

just going to be this thing of, you know, I've been pushed to play football. So I do it. I thought that was going to pay off in a way. And it was like, no, I couldn't even face my dad when I'd return. tired and intend to tell my mom instead. Yeah, and you know, I thought there was something also, like, near the end that they could have really explored, like, his dad really seemed to love the spotlight in a way Barry didn't.

Like, he was doing interviews all the time, like, all the time. And he talked about it in one of the clips. He's like, I've been up all morning taking calls, you know, after he retired, you know. And I just, there's something there about fathers and sons that, like, maybe they could have teased out a little bit more, too. Like, maybe they could have talked to, they said that his father was a really good football player. Like, well, let's talk about that a little bit more. Where did Barry know about that? So I just, yeah, there were totally some missed opportunities there for sure.

It was fascinating because his dad was a huge OU fan and then Barry went to Oklahoma State and his dad was sort of like disappointed that it was like, no, no, oh, you didn't give me a scholarship. I cannot go to Oklahoma. Right, right. Transfer portal. Yeah, there were two schools that offered me scholarships in Oklahoma. One was Oklahoma State, one was Tulsa. That was not OU. And also, and also, Brian. They had Emmett Smith.

They had Emmett Smith. They had his best friend who apparently works at the journalism department at the University of Kansas. They deployed them so late in the game and they didn't get any insight from them. And I thought, you know, again, missed opportunity, man. Totally. And the Emmett thing is fascinating because you and I grew up watching football in the 90s. And Emmett in a way was like Barry St. Emmett also did not dance in the end zone, which they made a big deal out of the thing.

But he would keep the ball and then put it in a trunk because he saved every touchdown. ball he ever got. But, you know, Emmett was like about counting stats. You know, at the end of the day, Emmett was like, I am absolutely, I'm going out of here, you know, with the rushing title. I'm not leaving. Even if I'm not Emmett Smith that you know at the end. And Barry is so, so different, right? And it just, it didn't matter to him in that same way. And that there's something there, right? There's something to tease out. They didn't say, didn't say Emmett was the all time career leading Russia in the NFL history. You could have been like, well, I got the record, Barry didn't.

Well, let me tell you how my life has been like as a result of that. I would it was like to get that record knowing that Barry stopped short of it? So yeah, man, you breaking that up made me think. Again, it was cool to see Barry Sanders and to see him run. But, like, yeah, I think that could have been a little bit more, it could have lose a little bit more cooking in the production stage. Yeah. All these feel like they're made very fast, but I would watch the Albert Brooks. stock on on max and like the best stuff was Albert brooks doing comedy back in the old days and this is

the same way the best stuff is Barry Sanders you know run you know leaving defenders in the dust in the 90s like it's the same thing the old footage is what you kind of want and he's just like okay now just put put a little something on it right give me just a little something more yeah well i mean look man there's the really interesting fact about Barry Sanders and when he went to school as he talked when he went to the NFL he said i remember this that he was a very very important. virgin and he was going to remain a virgin until he got married. And then he had a kid like a couple years later and, you know, like nobody questioned him about it or anything like that.

And I'm like, you have him here. Why don't you ask him about that stuff? Like all this legendary stuff, there's all this great stuff about Barry Sanders. And now Barry Sanders is like a charming guy himself, but he's just a little stiff. And I just, I don't feel like I came away knowing much more about Barry Sanders than I did before I started watching it. Put it that way. all right joel anderson listen to him and read him on slate.com what is the next best next big thing for you

man um hmm i'm working on a big project about a big rapper here we go and and um what it means um now that we've celebrated 50 years of hip hop and so i wish i could say more than that um but i don't want to spoil it too much because i got a lot more work to do but it's a good tease That's one thing. Oh, and this year I'm doing a finance column that the slate's going to announce. We're talking about money, but like kind of in a different way about, you know, how money affects your life, you know, the money you have in relation to others and how we're making it in this society. So that's a new project I'm working on this year too. So I'm just kind of, I'm just kind of spreading myself around a little bit until I figure out what I want to do. I'm like a college sophomore. more. It's always so much fun talking to you. Thanks for coming on. Come back soon. Oh, man. My pleasure. Anytime, Brian, I'd love to. That's the press box. I'm Brian Curtis. Production Magic. As always,

by Brian Waters. A little housekeeping here, a little letter from the editor, if you will. I got three things for you about the press box and its future. Number one, we announced on Monday a new feature about media scandals and moments of general weirdness. You, the press box listener, voted. And the winner in a nail biter was the fall of NBC anchor Brian Williams. A little bit of an upset there, but I like it. I'm excited. Shoemaker and I were going to break that down on Monday.

We would like to name this feature. And I got some nominees here. Jordan Horribin, I hope I'm saying your name right, Jordan, suggests gaff from the past. Peter Kaiser suggests back to the feature, but I thought my own idea had a certain elegance. Press botch. Press botch, which is also a wrestling term.

Brian's nodding right here. If you can beat it at the press box pot. All right, that's number one. Number two, what you just heard is going to be the format of the Thursday show in 2024. Me doing a press box pretty much straight up with a guest host. What I'd love from you is more hosts. You nominated a bunch. I've asked some people, some notable journalists actually nominated themselves, which is very, very allowed at the

press box pot if you here have ideas for other people you'd like to hear on this show. Next Thursday, on the eve of the Iowa caucuses, we're going to have the Atlantic's Mark Leibovic join us. Mark, you know, not only from the Atlantic, but his previous stents at the New York Times and the Washington Post. He is one of the most enviable writers, envy-inducing writers that I have ever found in this business because Mark can write a great feature. He can write a great column. There's probably an alternate timeline where he was the trenchant, funny columnist of the New York Times, the Washington Post, if those jobs still had the heft that they did back in the old days. And there are times when I will sit down at the keyboard to write something and I will look at the screen and

and be like, oh my God, I just forgot how to write. I cannot produce a sentence right now. And I have a little shelf of books behind me that are writers that I like to read in such moments. And Mark Leibovic's book, this town is right there as one of those books. And it's there because one, it gets the neurons firing when I read his writing. And two, it makes me very jealous. And I want to write something good, too.

So tune in for talk about Midwest diners. much more with Mark Liebovich next Thursday. All right, finally, 2024 goals. We need to grow the podcast. Every time I mention this on the air, I get these very nice notes from people. It's everything okay with the press box. Everything is okay with the press box.

We want to make things better than okay. So what I ask periodically for you to do, retweet the podcast, put the podcast on threads, Facebook, whatever social media thing you like, recommend it to a friend. We're really happy with this. I think this is going to be an awesome year. I love our new format this year. Any help you can give us in that department

because we need to get bigger and we are going to get bigger in 2024. All right. With that said, Shoemaker and I are back with press botch and more lukewarm takes about the media on Monday. Have a fantastic weekend.