The Press Box - The Tell-All Book Haunting Washington. Plus: Can Podcasts Become the New Magazines?

Episode Date: May 15, 2025

Hello, media consumers! This week, Bryan and Joel go to J-School to discuss the reactions to and coverage of the Jayson Tatum injury (1:00). Then, they digest the various news ripples that have come from excerpts of ‘Original Sin,’ Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson’s book about Joe Biden’s decision to run for reelection (10:00). Next, they react to a recent report on Pablo Torre Finds Out about Bill Belichick and Jordon Hudson, and they assess whether or not this kind of reporting is replacing magazine journalism of old (35:00). Finally, they talk about the evolution of newsroom etiquette (53:00) and how the media reacted to the news of Pete Rose’s baseball ban being posthumously lifted (1:02:00). Hosts: Bryan Curtis and Joel D. Anderson Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Bill Simmons, and I want to tell you about my movie podcast, The Rewatchables. We're each week, I'm joined by Ringer movie lovers, Chris Ryan, Sean Van Van Lathen, Kyle Brandt, Matley Rubin, we have a whole bunch of people on. We talk about movies. We can't stop rewatching. And now you can watch us cover these movies on video in the Spotify app. We have covered over 350 movies, including Heat, Goodfellas, Boogie Nights, Pulp Fiction. We have some real heavy hitters coming up here in 2025.

Make sure to follow us on Spotify, where you can watch. watch every new episode right now. Just head to the rewatchables on Spotify, now on video. Hello, media consumers. Welcome to Pressbox. You've got Brian Curtis, Joel Anderson, and producer Bobby Wagner. Coming up on today's pod, the tell-all book that's haunting Washington. Did Pablo Torre reinvent the magazine story with his podcast about Bill Belichick and Jordan

Hudson? We have new rules of the newsroom. What are they? and Pete Rose. Pete Rose is a media thing again. Let's do some sports radio like it's 1999. But first, let me take you to a place where everyone is known as Charlie Hustle.

Let us slide spikes up into J-School. In J-School, Brian, we play to the echo of the whistle. The echo of the whistle. Did I tell you, Brian, that I'm possibly related to the new Pope? I saw you skeeting about this, and I want to know more. Okay. So about a decade ago, my mother's side of the family started doing research into our

family tree or whatever, and it led to a few reunions and connections that we maintain today. But one of our older ancestors is a woman named Anne Prevost, a Creole woman whose mother is from Haiti and who herself is originally from New Orleans. And so another thing that my mother's research discovered is that there weren't very many people named Prevost at the time. It's not a very common last name, okay? And so I was reading in the New York Times,

and it's a bit about Richard Fawcett and Robert Cherito, and they talked a little bit more about the Pope's Creole roots in more detail. And, you know, the Pope's maternal grandparents are described as black or, quote, mulatto in various historical records. They lived in the Seventh Ward of New Orleans, an area, again, where my ancestor is from, right? and there's a lot of Creole folks there, this melting pot of like Afro, Caribbean, Euro roots and everything. So look, you know, the new Pope, he hasn't talked much about his Creole ancestry in public

and his brother has said that the family doesn't identify as black, which I mean, look, duh, why would they? I mean, if you don't have to opt into the experience, I kind of understand why you might not. But I'm just going to go ahead and claim it, Brian. And this is, I'm saying this as a distant relative and a product. of a Jesuit high school education. The Pope is my cousin. And I choose to love my family, even though he prayed against the Astros

in the 2005 World Series. Also, I'm joking. So the Prevost side of the Post family is originally from France. So actually doesn't work out. So, you know, anybody, any media person listening is don't try to come interview me about my play cousin.

We're not really related, all right? There was so many Pope family interviews and Pope friend interviews. That brother, man, it was amazing. Yeah. Just the fact that he was doing interviews instead of answering his phone. Yeah.

When the new Pope was calling. Yeah. Man, this is the first Pope in our lifetime. I have to think that it's sort of accessible to Americans, right? His backstory is, you know, I mean, he's an American. You know, we know a lot about where he went to school, Villanova, the Villanova of it all. He likes the Knicks. His name is Bob.

His name is Bob. I mean, you know, so it makes. sense that people would care because so much of his CV, as we might say, is accessible us. We know these points of reference and everything. I had somebody text me and say, this is going to be like the Kennedys were covered back in the day. Oh. Like the media is now going to have this little, you know, obsession, this just kind of new sort of vertical where we just do Pope news all the time. More than we would have, you know, it's always covered. Yeah. But now it will be more because as you say, the Pope is accessible.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I mean, he's one of, I mean, it's funny, I had an argument about a friend with this. He was like, what's the big deal with the Pope? And I was like, well, you mean one of the most powerful religious leaders in the world? Leads millions and millions of people and advises them. I was like, and also like, it seems if you, our Pope who had a Twitter account seems to have, his political ideology runs counter to that of Donald Trump. So that makes it a little bit more compelling too, I would think. 100%. I want to talk about Jason Tatum.

Yeah. That was so sad. And by the way, when we did that segment, I was like, something weird or strange is going to happen. And sure enough, we're watching and going, oh, no, not this. The timing of it, man. I mean, it happens like hours before he ruptures that. right, Achilles.

And it just, yeah, I mean, I don't know anybody who can watch that scene and not feel like tremendously sad for him. But I don't want to talk about how sad it is. I want to talk about his legacy, right? Because it seemed like at the conclusion of the conversation that you all had, it was sort of, I guess you all sort of decided that it was silly to be discussing legacy at this point in his career. Is that a fair reading?

In that you can slice and dice legacy so much that it becomes ridiculous. Yes. do these first two games against the Knicks. Will these determine Jason Tatum's legacy, Jason Tatum who won a championship last year? Right. The thing is, we know how legacies actually work too.

Unless you're Michael Jordan, you kind of end up having to go back to Basketball Reference.com, and you'd be like, oh, man, he put up some numbers. I feel like that's how it happens a lot of the time when regular people are discussing it. Totally. And Jordan, by the way, is a character in Jordan versus LeBron.

Yep. coming soon or already on every single debate show. Absolutely. And when we were kids, he was a character in Jordan versus Wilk. Right. Man, it is kind of crazy that even then Kareem kind of got skipped over. It's funny that you mentioned it that way because the other night I heard Dwight Howard, he was on inside the NBA with Charles Barkley and Jalen Rose.

And he did not ask Charles about playing against Michael Jordan, didn't ask him about playing against Kareem or Dr. J or with Dr. J. he said, what was it like to play against Will Chamberlain? Now, of course, Charles Barkley, not that old. I was going to say. Did not play against Will Chamberlain, but he is, I think, prior to the Jordan thing, everybody sort of thought of him. If you didn't look too hard at the ring stuff and we didn't lean too hard into

rings culture, then he was sort of the phenomenon of that era, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. Again, that was a million sports radio segments back in the day. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, so I kind of want to, you know, in regards to Dan Libbyter's question, about where are the moments?

I think that scene for Monday night is going to be one of the definitive ones in his career. So he's like Tatum on the Madison Square Garden Floor near the end of one of the very best games of his career, 42 points, eight rebounds, forces, four stills, two blocks. And he's in tears, almost spinning around from the pain, right? And I was I talked about Achilles 20 years ago and I have a particular interest in this injury, having seen other people go through it. I've never seen anyone in as much agony as he appeared. to be in that moment.

But neither here nor there. So anyway, I think that moment is going to inject a lot of pathos into his story. And I bet we're going to see that scene again and again and again when he eventually returns. And especially if he ever reclaims his former All-Star status, like the ad agencies that work with Nike and Amika or a subway or whatever, they'll figure out something to do with that footage, don't you think? Totally. And it becomes part of the legacy conversation.

It becomes a bit. Oh my gosh, Jason Tatum. Now we're not worried that you were not playing great against the Knicks in games one and two of a series of Celtics were favored in. Now we love you because if you come back from this, this will be your legacy. Yep. You come back and win another championship. Now the tally is different than it was. So, you know, I started with a little personal connection to the Pope.

So I want to tell you a little brief personal relationship I had with Jason Tatum. Over 2014 and 2015, I spent like a total of, I guess a couple of months or more in Ferguson covering the fallout after the killing of Michael Brown. So I went back in November when the grand jury declined to indict the officer Darren Wilson and Brown's death. And so, you know, shit got scary there, man. I was wearing a gas mask and everything. It was crazy, right?

Anyway, after one of the nights where all the shit has gone down, I'm walking up and down South Florissant Avenue near the Ferguson police station. And I stopped into this office that was rented by a guy named Hubert Hussman. He was a local real estate consultant. And Hussman was like this ideal source. It turned out he was like the, he was active in the St. Louis County chapter, the NACP. He'd been president, CEO of one of Missouri's largest credit unions. And he was just like one of those people that makes a community better.

Like he was a community activist in like very real sense. He was also six foot seven. And though he was pretty modest about it at the time. I later found out he'd been a basketball star. at like East St. Louis High School, which is one of the legendary programs in the country, and later went on to be a star at the University of Missouri at St. Louis. So after my interview, I told him I was looking to blow off a little steam and I wanted to get out and watch a high school basketball game. And that's something I'll do if I'm in town

and I have time. I'll just find the best game in town if I can do it. As Mr. Hussman, I was like, if you have any recommendations, what should I go do it? He said, hey, man, there's this kid in town. He's probably going to be the best player to ever come out of St. Louis. He said, you've got to go see this kid's name is Jason Tatum. I'm like, shit, man, it's Larry Hughes, David Lee. You know, at the time, Bradley Bill was like an up-and-coming star in Washington. This guy's going to be the best. So later that night, I go to this high school and I see Tatum, and he was pretty

incredible. And in fact, I told my friends that night, I thought he was the best high school basketball player I'd ever seen. And so I wanted to write about him because that's who I am. I'm an old high school sports beat writer. But because I'm at BuzzFeed News, which at the time had already shut down at sports vertical six months into my time there. and had a very limited interest in sports,

I had to make it about something bigger than sports. And it was a struggle. So I'm insistent on trying to make this work. So I get permission from my editor to follow Tatum around. So I saw him play a handful of times that his alma mater, shamanade. I went up to the Springfield, Massachusetts to see him play in the 2015 Hoop Hall Classic.

I went to D.C. to see him play against Markell Fultz and Chase Young at DeMatha, Catholic. I talked to his mother, father, grandmother, his coaches. I even talked with him. And you know what I got, Brian? What'd you get? Nothing.

I don't think I got three usable quotes from Jason Tatum. Wait, this was like less than Cedric Benson? That's more than Cedric Benson. Okay. So barely over the Cedric Benson line. Barely over the Cedg Benson line. Yeah. And it could have been my fault.

I could have asked better questions or whatever. But I still try to put together like 5,000 words and try at this really strained angle about like why Tatum was at this wealthy private. school and not one of the struggling public schools in the area. And I deliver it to my editor, the great Mark Schoves. And he says, Joel, I don't think this is going to happen. So I had to let it go reluctantly. And I was working on a whole bunch of other stories and moved on. But as I thought back on that time recently, and I compared them to other interviews I had with other up-and-coming stars in my high school in my career, Chris Bosch. Chris Bosch was

precocious. He talked to me like we were peers. Like, I, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I I thought Chris Bosch was like, oh, man, like, are we the same age or something? Derek Johnson, you remember Derek Johnson? Linebacker, sure. He's a senior in high school. He's six foot three, 180 pounds. I asked him what he expected of his career, and he told me he'd be in the league in three years. I mean, he was pretty dead on.

He was right about that, right? Kendrick Perkins, he was so mature and had such a heartbreaking backstory. His mother was shot and killed by Best Rainier. He was five. His father wasn't in his life. He lived with his grandparents and both. And I remember him having to duck into it to get into their little home. Like there's all these like great stories.

But Tatum was just like a nice, quiet kid raised by a loving family. He was close to his mom and his father. His father who himself was a St. Louis basketball star and was best friends with Larry Hughes. He was middle class. But if we weren't talking about basketball, there was just nothing else to say about him. And so that's the sort of stuff that's kind of hard to sell us a story. So I'm fast forwarding like right now. and I'm looking up on basketball reference.

And then I thought about it this way. I was like, what if I had to have a really strong opinion about James Worthy? Or the Marcus Aldridge or Terry Cummings? Like, what if I made you have to have a really strong opinion about Joe Johnson right now? Oh, my goodness. Right? And so, like, I just think that, like, we don't have to force it with Jason Taylor. Like, that was, like, the legacy stuff and everything.

Like, he's not really an interesting guy. Like, he's a great basketball player. But there was really no story that made it necessarily. for us to really be passionate about him. And so I think timing is everything. This injury, the agony, the drama of it all, finally. Like we've got something that will keep people invested and willing to follow him. But prior to that, man, I got 5,000 words out there that bored my editor to tears.

So, you know, it makes sense. So much of the Tatum floundering came from the fact that he is aesthetically displeasing to watch. step back threes that don't go in are not exciting. Yes. And at the same time, people are watching Jalen Brunson. They're like, ooh, Mighty Mouse, that's fun. I can get my mind around that. That's exciting.

But if you have somewhat, again, to some people, it's not to everybody, somewhat aesthetically displeasing basketball without a strong personality behind the mic, and he still seems like the guy behind the mic that you're describing from high school in a lot of ways, I think you then get into a weird zone as a media member. So you reach for legacy. Yep. Yep. Absolutely.

I mean, dude's not like he's not Anthony Edwards. He's not explosive. You know, like that. He's not taking a victory lap outside the stadium like aunt was after beating the Lakers. No way Jason Tatum does that. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, he's just a very good basketball player. But that's, I mean, sometimes that's just not enough. Let us talk about a few things in the news, Joel. Okay. Number one is the tell all book that's haunting

Washington, D.C. The book is called Original Sin, President Biden's decline, its cover-up and his disastrous choice to run again. It's by Jake Tapper of CNN and by Alex Thompson of Axios. It doesn't come out until Tuesday,

but you'd be forgiven for not knowing that because there's been a bombshell scoop from the book or three every single day this week. That rollout is incredible, is it? Dude, I mean, my first reaction to this was, wait, how does a news anchor and a writer have a more sophisticated PR machine than the guy who was the leader of the free world four months ago? Yeah, I mean, obviously they didn't hire like Jordan. They didn't hire Bill Billis-Sex homegirl, you know what I'm saying? They really didn't.

I mean, and you can see they've done certain things as defensive measures. there's like a sizzle reel out there of them talking about whether Joe Biden was up to the job when it was unfashionable because you know the first comeback is wait a second if there was this whole cover up and whole cone of silence why weren't you guys trying to penetrate it rebutting that criticism before to even get started right there's also a nugget about the fact checking they did for this book it's one of those weird things about journalism and book writing that people have a hard time getting their mind around that I have a hard time getting my mind around that books are not formally fact-checked? It is shocking. I didn't know that until very late in the

game. But yes, it's not, yeah. So they said, no, no, no, we went out and fact-checked this book. And again, a lot of this is on sources, but they brought a fact-checker in so that they can rebut the claims. And I'm sure the claim starts with all these anonymous sources telling us. But I'll give you just a few of the revelations we've heard. This is from Axios. Joe Biden's physical deterioration was so severe in 2023 and 2024 that advisors privately discuss the possibility he'd need to use a wheelchair if he won re-election. That's one of them.

Another describes cabinet secretaries that were concerned about Biden. I'll quote here from Axios again. At one rear meeting during that time, the cabinet secretary, quote, was shocked by how the president was acting. He seemed, quote, disoriented and, quote, out of it. His mouth agape. that's according to the book.

And then they had a big New Yorker excerpt called how Joe Biden handed the presidency to Donald Trump. I mean, I guess we're never going to have a president that's in a wheelchair. That's one thing I took from that. I was like, well, I guess like if it is that damning, I guess with the age, that makes it one thing. But the optics of it, it doesn't seem like people are willing to accept that. No, and I think also what that does is it puts a data point

on something that is very hard to nail down. Was Joe Biden up to the job? Right. Is a question that doesn't have an exact answer, right? There's not a piece of paper that says yes or no, please check the box. Right. So what you do is you go looking for evidence. Here's some evidence.

People said that he might have had trouble walking in his second term would have to be in a wheelchair. Cabinet secretaries felt they were, you know, kept away from Biden or that he was acting strangely in meetings. He didn't recognize George Clooney when he saw him face to face. He didn't recognize Clooney. It's not like he didn't recognize Clooney from, you know, movies. It's like Clooney was his boy. They'd known each other for 20 years or something, you know, according to that New Yorker excerpt. Were you fascinated by the whole Clooney Biden White House relationship? I was because I'm naive, I guess. I just didn't realize that George Clooney had that sort of access to people. Like I sort of under, people talk

about like the role of Hollywood and the Democratic Party and so on and so forth, I did not realize that they played that integral of a role. Like, I mean, with Jeffrey Katzenberg and the money he'd spent and he'd raised for them and all that sort of stuff, I was like, oh, wow, it's not that it was revelatory to me, but I guess the extent of their involvement and their association with these guys was sort of interesting to me. I did not know it went that deep. And I understand Clooney is like a major Democratic fundraiser. Because, hey, if he can put butts in the seats. And some of the goodies as described in the New Yorker piece where you get to take a picture with George Clooney backstage. If you give a certain amount of money, you don't just get to

see Biden and Obama and Jimmy Kimmel do a Q&A. You get your picture with George Clooney and Julia Roberts. And Julia Roberts. And Julia Roberts. And Julia Roberts. But the relationship is interesting because they say this. Clooney held out hope that Democratic governors, this is a meeting that Biden had with governors, would address the matter with Biden instead. But the readout he got on a White House meeting with the governors suggested that no one had stepped up and told the president the truth. And I'm like, is George Clooney getting formal or informal briefings from Bidenland? I mean, the thing is, if you contribute this much money and time, I guess there's ways to get that information, right?

Like, if you want it and they're going to ask you to put your credibility and yourself on the line like that, you know, we all know that if you pay enough money that you will get that sort of information. One thing I'm going to look for when the book comes out, and again, we're talking about excerpts here. Books should be judged as a whole. But one thing I'm going to look for is the year 2023. Because a lot of the dates in that New Yorker excerpt, which again, just part of the bug, are about spring of 2024. And at that point, this was a big discussion.

It was a discussion way before Joe Biden went out and tanked the debate against Donald Trump. Like his whole state of the union address was like, oh my gosh, okay, he got through it. maybe we can continue with this thing. That was a worry for, so when you have politicians and Democratic fundraisers and George Clooney saying like, hey, I'm worried, is this thing really going to get across the finish line?

Is this our best option for beating Donald Trump? That felt like that was in the air. And you also understand those people are under pressure because at that point, even there, you're like, can we really change candidates at this point? I want to know more 2020, to 2023, people that are looking at Joe Biden when there was still tons of time to fix this and

saying, wait a second, should this guy be running for reelection? Yeah. And it's going to be interesting because, I mean, there is that. But also, I mean, anybody who's loved an elderly person knows how quickly things can turn in the span of like one year, right? Like one year can be, a person can really slip in terms of, you know, their mental acuity and all that other sort of stuff. So, yeah, I'm sort of fascinated to know.

I mean, it seems like the concessions that we've learned about through the reporting here were already that he could work four, six hours a day, like really hard. And then he would need naps or need to whatever. And so like, yeah, like, what is the truth of the matter here? Was he like really, really working hard and then all of a sudden they had to tailor it back? Or like, what? Was it always these concessions made knowing that he was going to have to be in it for the long haul? Yes. And then again, there's another data point. Joe Biden could be president, but he could only be president for four to six hours a day effectively. You're putting a number on something that it's just very, very hard to quantify. Yeah. You know, it is interesting, and I'm fascinated to learn more and read the book itself. One thing that I was kind of surprised about, and maybe more will come out about this later, Biden's spokesman, I think he told the New York Times this, that they had not seen a copy. of the book and they had not been consulted in the fact checking.

And that kind of surprised me a little bit, right? I don't believe the latter. You don't? No. Okay. You don't think they would have loved to have gotten comment from Biden or a Biden spokesperson on any of this? Surely they are, surely they're going to them.

I'm sure they were reached out too, but like the fact checking piece of it, I guess, is what I'm curious about, right? Like, what did they go? Because, you know, you know how reporting goes. It's like, all right, somebody, the fact. the fact checker calls and they say this, this, this and this. Is this true? Is this true? Is this true? And I don't, you know, I don't know how that works. I've not been at this end of it for books, but maybe it wasn't that guy. Maybe he wasn't the guy

that got the call. And so he's sort of shugging it off on somebody else, right? Yeah, he was brought in. This is what Adam Wren said, that Biden is staffed up as this book's coming out. He's trying to participate in his legacy. And that, by the way, is part of the interesting subtext of this, is Joe Biden is participating in his legacy debate earlier than any president I can remember. I mean, Trump is the exception to everything, but that was happening. As Ashley Parker reminded us the other day on right wing podcasts at this point, Trump was not super touchable to the mainstream media in 2021. You know, Obama was working on his book, George W. Bush was working on his book,

Bill Clinton was working on his book. Biden is on The View. Right. Right. I was kind of surprised. Did you watch that interview by? I did. How did they look?

He looked just like he did during the campaign. Wait, what does that mean? Which version of Joe then? Not the State of the Union version. Probably not the debate version, but the normal everyday version, where he would start an answer and then at some point he would realize he was talking too long and he would just stop and go, oh, I'm going on too long. Or anyway, where you're just like, again, whatever you want to say about,

Joe Biden, his ability to do the job, he was not an effective political communicator. Right. Right. And these were, again, like Alyssa Fair Griffin was asking some pretty tough questions, but Joy Behar and Whoopi were there to, you know, make Joe Biden put on his best face. Right. And Jill was sitting next to him for the third segment. Man, that's another thing.

I mean, especially since we've been talking so much about the partners of very famous people, and they talked a little bit about the role. I want to know a little bit more about the role of Jill Biden here because it seems like she was very instrumental and sort of keeping people at bay and being like, how dare you ask about, you know, Jill's fitness for this, right? Like, it seemed like she was like as much of a roadblock to people that wanted to dislodge him from that, from running again as anybody else.

Totally. And we heard that. We don't worry about that, right? When people were trying to shove them off the ticket, it was like, who's going to get through to Biden? Right. It's Roshetti. It's Donnell.

And those are two big advisors. And then it's Jill. Like, these are the people he would listen to if they said, hey, are you sure we shouldn't step down? Yeah. Are you sure you shouldn't make way for Kamala Harris? Right. I mean, you know, I'm, I'm, this is a fascinating media story. I am curious to know that like, because I'm, you know, reading about, you know, the fallout from this book already and the reporting and they're like, well, now people are suggesting that Democrats are going to, anybody that is serious about running for 2028, that they're going to have to apologize or Democrats are going to have to come out and say, you know, throw themselves out there and say, oh, well, you know, this was a mistake to run Joe Biden. I really want to know, is this just a media creation or whatever? Because surely voters don't give a shit about that, right? I can't imagine they're going to give a shit by 2028. Yeah.

I really don't think so. I mean, I saw, look, there are rewards to be had. Yeah. Senator Chris Murphy from Connecticut, who's got his playoff beard just like Pete Buttigieg. He was out there with, I believe it was Holly Otterbide in Politico saying this week, you know, Biden shouldn't run. Words to that effect. It was like, oh, finally someone has stepped up. Ford, right, to say the magic words. So there were awards out there for you. Right. If you want to be first or second, it's like, it's like Obama and the Iraq war. It's just like, hey, I was out there ahead of everybody, right?

I didn't want to risk our, I didn't want to risk our credibility on this. Yeah, but it's like, it's also like, you look, what's the downside to saying Joe Biden shouldn't have run for president at this point? Joe Biden's not going to help you on the campaign trail in 2028. And it certainly doesn't seem like the Biden team has like a lot of leverage or, you know, like influence anymore, right? Yeah, just kind of like, all right. They've already been sort of shoved to the side at this point.

So, yeah. I got three quick reactions for you, many reactions, largely from the New Yorker excerpt. Okay. Number one is we heard from David Pluff. He had perhaps the biggest on the record quotes. He says, it's all Biden. And then adds, he totally effed us when talking about. Now, David Pluff, for those who don't remember, work for Obama and then came back.

to help run Kamala Harris's very quick presidential campaign. David Pluff is one of these people who is answering or perhaps should be answering for how Kamala Harris lost the election to Donald Trump. Now, I am always opposed, Joel, to the idea of please go away public figure, because I think public figure should be available. We should be asking the questions. I might make an exception for David Plush. The guy who was assuring the media, oh, those polls you're saying, oh, we're, we're looking at very different polls. Those numbers are very, very different down the stretch of the campaign. I mean, yeah, surely he wants to talk about that instead of running around the country with

Lynn Cheney and like how effective of a campaign strategy that was, right? Like, it's like, oh, no, it was Biden's fault. It was Biden's fault. Not us pursuing a very curious outreach strategy here. Yeah. So maybe not go away, but let's pour an antills worth of salt on all your quotes about how it's all Joe Biden's fault that the election was lost. That's number one. Number two is another name we saw on this, which is John Favreau, another former Obamaite who is part of Pod Save America and that whole empire. He had a meeting with Biden that comes up in April of 2024. This was an influencer meeting at the White House. And Dan Fifer and John Lovett were there too, other courtiers in the Pod Save Empire. And he sees Biden. And as the story says, he, this is Biden was incoherent.

his stories were meandering and confusing, et cetera, et cetera. So Favreau and his friends and podcast partners are very alarmed. Now, let me just tell you something. I think in this media world we live in, Joel, people get confused because everybody is part of this large amorphous blob called media. You can listen to POTSave American and be like, man, these guys are good political analysts. They make news because they have, let's say, the Biden team on for interviews. They also have Gavin Newsom after the wildfires.

they're going to have all these would-be presidents and would-be nominees for 2028 on their podcast. A lot of news is going to go through there. I totally get that. What people need to remember is that people in the media, quote-unquote, have different jobs. And if a journalist, a full-stop journalist, had seen that kind of interaction, they'd be like, I'm going to my editor and how do I get this into the newspaper? The people who run Pod Save America, and they are very upfront about this, they want to see Democrats get elected to office.

Right. If I remember their post-debatte line, it was, hey, if Joe Biden's the nominee, we don't think that's a great idea. We think he should step down, but we think he's better than Donald Trump and we will do our best to help Joe Biden. Right.

That's a different job than a reporter like the people who wrote this book. Right. It's easy to forget now. I don't blame anybody for getting those things confused. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, because, yeah, I mean, I mean, the thing is, is like, nobody is just, it's, it's, it's really tough to just be a media person anymore, right?

Like, you're always, like, even, even all media people at this point, especially if they've gained some sort of prominence have come from some, some of world. It's not like, you know, this was a Mazu grad or something like that, right? Like, they're all, they all have some sort of, some sort of commitments or some other, you know, path that brought them to that thing. So, yeah, people are not going to remember that sort of thing. No. And it's just interesting. As we see like MSNBC say, hey, Jen Saki, we're going to put you on our air. Joy Reid journalists, not on our air anymore.

We become an in podcast world where it's all kinds of people, you know, this is not, you know, again, and again, there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with that. I think those guys are honest about that. That's just different. The job is different. The stated job is different. Something to remember. Finally, and this may be my favorite minor media detail about this whole book.

did you see the New York Times story by Reed J. Epstein about original sin? Yes, I did read that story. That's right. It kind of lists out all the different, you know, points of interest in the book coming up, right? Yes. It's the one that the takeaway, the six takeaways, because everything must be a takeaway now. But what was interesting is it can contain this sentence. The book does not contain any astonishing revelation that changes the broad perception of whether Mr. Biden, now 82, was fit to serve as president. Instead, it is a collection of smaller occurrences and observations reflecting his decline. And it goes on from there.

Now, I have hung around enough journalists from the newspaper era to hear the term knockdown story. You know this term? Wait, tell what is it knockdown story? Well, your competitors would get a scoop. And then in your own newspaper, you would write a story. But, you know, either it says like your scoop is. it real or would just kind of say, well, didn't we already know that or is that as big a deal as you're making it?

I don't know that this rises to full knockdown story. Right. But it was very interesting to see those lines in the paper. Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, also, just because it didn't have like some shocking new, what? I mean, was it well known that he might have needed a wheelchair? That seems like a fairly big piece of reporting, right? Like, I hadn't heard that anywhere else.

So maybe, I mean, I guess it's all, it's up to all of us. to decide what is an astonishing new fact. But to me, that was sort of surprising. Him not recognizing George Clooney. That's really surprising to me. But, you know, if they work in that world, maybe it would not be. But I think you have to think about the people on the outside. If you're going to write that, you need to think about the people reading that book or reading these stories.

Yeah. Though I do, I do, I got to say, I do, I don't know if this falls to, you know, full knockdown story territory. But I do like other media people weighing in on this and not just saying, like, my my wonderful colleagues and friends have written a wonderful book everybody should go read it oh yeah i like when journalists or journalists even about other journalists oh yeah i mean it's just kind of funny man because yeah i mean you i mean you also have to kind of explain to your agent your editor why didn't you hear that story man that could why wasn't that's your book you want to be right so very interesting all right item number two for you joel

pablo tore has been in the news because he he's all over yeah he is all over I mean, you cannot get on Twitter now and not find a clip of Pablo Tori finds out, which is his podcast over on Metal Arc or Pablo on somebody else's show or podcast talking about his podcast. Or Morning Joe, if you happen to be one of those people, you know? That's right. I'm not a Morning Joe person, but it's kind of hard to avoid all clips of Morning Joe. Cable News finds you, even if you don't go out of your way to find cable news. Absolutely.

The reason here is that Pablo had a big episode about Bill Belichael. Chick and Jordan Hudson. He was on this podcast with Katie Nolan and Michael Cruz Kane and I'll give you some of the revelations here for people who have not listened to the full episode. And I encourage you to listen to the episode and not just read the clips or watch the clips here. Jordan Hudson, according to Tori, is not allowed in the football building at the University of North Carolina where Belichick is the new coach.

That's the top line story that made its way around the internet. Yep. Belichick's family is very concerned about what's going on with Hudson. They're doing their own research to use a term that might be a little bit strange here on Hudson. Pablo also says that Hudson is running a Belichick media empire and running it in a way that a lot of people find very annoying. Yes. He does his due diligence on when exactly Hudson met Bill Belichick on a plane. and surmises that she was likely 19 years old when this happened.

And not 21 is it was previously believed, right? Yes. And he also says, hey, is this maybe the reason that she was intervening in that CBS interview with Tony DeCopo where we saw? Was that why she was sensitive about that particular question? And in the spirit of this podcast, there's all kinds of additional detail here. Like she asked Bill Belichick to sign a textbook from a Harvard professor. So she's in college. This is one of her textbooks. And then Pablo has an interview with

that Harvard professor. Right. In the manner of, I've got Marshall McLuhan right here. Who's reflecting on how his book became a prop or an item in their meat cute. Very, very interesting there. Not everything in the episode is a revelation. Pablo says at one point that he's talking about the CBS interview. He said, I'm told that this is his old, meaning Belichick. old high school in Annapolis, Maryland. Well, actually two minutes into the CBS piece, they say we are at Bill Belichick's old high school in Annapolis, Maryland and show a shot of the building.

So we did know that part in advance. But Pablo does get to what he says is the main issue here, and I agree with him, which is Jordan Hudson and whether she has power over Bill Belichick or part of Bill Belichick's media empire, if you will. that no one but her seems to have. Right. There certainly seems to be a power struggle in the background, right?

The people that used to have access to Coach Billichick and the people, and then having to contend with this person who has just sort of taken over his public relationship. Like, there was even the suggestion in that episode that that book that he's on tour for is part of her brainchild, right? Like, that is her plan to, like, sort of rebrand him and all the podcasts. and everything that he'd been doing in the past year before he even got to that job, that some of this is coming from Jordan. Absolutely.

And, you know, again, you and I could probably have guessed some of that when we're looking at everything Bill Belichick did during his gap year. Right. When he went from a not public, public figure to an extremely public public figure. Yeah. I mean, we can't. Doing the McAfee show, doing podcast, just all this stuff. Right.

I mean, the thing is, is that anybody, everybody that had worked with or knew, of Bill Belichick always said that there was more personality to him than he ever revealed to the public, right? Like, behind the scenes. Like, there's that great clip of him inviting Randy Moss to his Halloween party and they're all dressed up at everything. So there was obviously a lot more to Bill Belichick than we ever knew, but now we know it. We know a lot more about it. And there's a reason for that. And maybe it's Jordan or maybe it was that he was shocked at being locked out of the NFL for a year. But either way, like, people want to know, what the hell is going to do? What the hell is going on here? Why is that happening now?

There's another big clip that was making its way around the internet where Pablo tells Dominic Foxworth, there's absolutely a real chance that Bill Belichick never coaches the game at UNC. I saw that. That was fascinating to me. Well, say more about that because I don't think that's likely to happen, right? Like, there's no way. I'm right there with you. Right? Like, I mean, they've done this. It would be shocking. I mean, not that anything can happen. The world is crazy right now, right? But what has happened that says that he can't be the football coach? Well, we knew Bill Belichick didn't like bosses. That was on his CV. Right, right, right. We knew that Billichick had his boys who he was going to bring in.

I mean, his literal boy. I mean, his literal boy. He's a little boy. Yeah. So bringing in his girlfriend slash partner doesn't seem that surprising to me. And also just given everything we know, and again, Pablo alludes to a lot of ways that she is apparently a very difficult person to work with. So perhaps that's where this tension is coming from. But I'm like, her making an embarrassing moment, creating an embarrassing moment on that CBS interview, that is not to me disqualifying for being the football coach of the University of North Carolina.

No, absolutely not. her wanting to shape Steve Billichick's bio at UNC so that it focuses more on his college experience and less on him being Bill Belichick's son. Like, none of that is to me disqualifying at all, nor do I totally understand why that would hurt Bill Belichick's ability to coach a football team. If the thing had not happened on camera where she says, we're not going to talk about that, I don't think any of this really matters, especially if, like, let's just say for a second, It's not Jordan Hudson.

It's Linda Holloway, his previous girlfriend, you know, many years. Like, if that's going on in the background, I don't think anybody says a mumbling word about any of this stuff, right? Like, it doesn't matter. No. And even that it did happen, like, okay. Yeah. I mean, I'm just like, and like the whole thing about, yeah, I just, I don't, I don't

totally understand, like, you know, and it's like, yes, is this kind of a weird public spectacle that you and I are onlookers to and now participants in? Yeah. Is that going to hurt Bill Belichick's ability to convince recruits to go to UNC? I don't think a 17-year-old who is not necessarily always making the decision for themselves. They've got parents. They've got coaches. Now they've got agents. I mean, I don't think anybody can look at that and be like, hey, you sure you want to go sign up for that? That does seem a little bizarre. A little bit, but like, are they turned off by like, hey, he's posting pictures with his young girlfriend on Instagram. Sorry, is that a net negative in the world we live in where it's like, hey, content, let's go. Right.

Well, I mean, if you're the sort of 18-year-old who wants to play for Bill Belichick, that I don't think that would dissuade you, right? Because you're already sort of in the tank for Bill Belichick. Because as me, at 17 years old, it didn't seem like it would be a lot of fun to play for Bill Belichick. But if you're inclined to do that, then, yeah, I can't see that getting in the way of it. Yeah, and I'm like, what would she have to be doing behind the scenes? for him not to no longer be able to like functionally coach football. I would say this though. It is, I mean, we talked a little bit about the revelation about her, you know,

them possibly, her possibly being 19 when they met. That is a little weird. I mean, UNC has a lot of 19 year old women on campus. That's very true. You know what I mean? And they just say a little something about your judgment and like what you're willing to engage in, like what you think is okay and to publicly present. And I could see people being a little bit icked by that.

But, you know, I mean, again, you say, we're talking about an 18 year old who wants to get to the league. And that probably, if you really want to do it, that's probably not going to stop you. No. I mean, and I understand, like coaches in college do not typically have a vivid public love life. No. What they're selling is family atmosphere. How many times have we heard that term in recruiting stories? I mean, family atmosphere.

I mean, the thing is, it is, it's usually sort of strange and people will be. bring it up if a coach is not married. Like a head coach at a major institution. Like it's kind of like being president. It's like, all right, but you kind of, it's like the Tim Scott thing. It's like, all right, I got to find somebody to get married to here. I got to get a partner here because otherwise people are going to start asking questions. What if the coach was in a wheelchair?

You think that would be disqualifying for major school? Oh, my God. Well, how did it? How would the, if it was like Mike Utley, you know what I mean? Like you got injured in the field of play or something, but I don't think you could just, yeah, that probably be tough. Matthew Zitland, who's a friend of this podcast and a fine writer himself. Former BuzzFeed colleague. There you go.

He had a tweet about Pablo's story where he said, wait a second, is this the new magazine story? That somebody like Pablo instead of writing this down for the places where he used to work, Sports Illustrated ESP in the magazine, that you do the reporting and then present it as a podcast. What do you think? Are we looking at a new journalistic organism here? Well, I mean, Pablo does have a substack and he did not lay it out in that way, right, on substack, right? It was that. And so, yeah, and I should say here, I was a contributed to the Pablo show last year. Like, I did a little thing. And so there's a full disclosure. Full disclosure. And so they've got these three versions of a show that they do. They do the deep dives with a reporter on assignment. And that's kind of what I did. Like I did mine on the Oakland A's leaving Oakland. they do the hangs. They call them and it's like they interview somebody. So it'll be like with Dominic Foxworth is on.

Or they'll talk to somebody interesting and that's one episode. And then they do the sort of share and tell thing, which is the weekly episode where Pablo has two guests and they bring a thing and they talk about it. And that was the version of the show that we saw was sort of a mixture of three and one. But what I would say is that they don't make any accidents there. And it's a very well-produced show. And so, and a lot of the people that are behind the scenes on that show are journalists and writers, people that have, are familiar with that format. So it makes sense that like it was laid out in quite that way.

But with, you know, the audio twist, because you've got to make it appealing for people to listen to. So yeah, I mean, it's, I can't remember a story and I don't listen to every podcast, but I can't quite remember a major sports story breaking and being presented in quite that way before. Can you? Not off the top of my head. You know, I'm sure it has. I was interested, Paolo wrote this on a substack about his sort of approach here.

He says, which is why my approach while building Pablo Tori finds out has instead been to build the digital evolution of a television news magazine show where we teach our staff to turn video audio conversations

into mystery boxes full of original serious high value reporting that then gets presented to recurring friends of Pablo Tori Fon. finds out like Katie Nolan and Michael Cruz Kane, who then get to play with the news. So essentially, Pablo is going to unfurl a revelation.

And then there's going to be some podcast-style banter about the revelation. And I got to say while listening to that, I thought that was okay. I thought the reporting was great. I thought the presentation of it was a little bit of an uncomfortable combination of of reporting and banter. Okay. Is that because you think the allegations therein was serious enough that it really wasn't,

it shouldn't have been as joky as it ultimately came across? I mean, part of it is like, it felt to me like, I'm going to say something newsy and then we're going to do exactly this many seconds of jokes about it. Yeah. And then I'm going to say something else, newsy and a little schematic in that way. I don't know if it was edited.

It certainly sounded like. like it had been edited very, very, very closely. Yeah. That we're doing this and then we're moving on here. But also, I just think like when you are putting new facts into the universe, what I want from the co-hosts or the people who are opening the mystery box and Katie Nolan and Michael Cruz can are very capable of this is just a little, I don't know pushback as a word, but just a little clarifying.

How do we know this? I mean, they got into it a little bit later in the podcast. are like, how many of the sources of this story are women who are talking about this woman, right? Are we, are we seeing, you know, what are we seeing here when we're seeing reactions to her? They got to do that a little bit, but, but to me, I'm just like, when I hear like, she can't go to the University of North Carolina's sports facilities, I'm like, is that tenable that somebody's partner could not show up at their workplace? Like, like, again, not challenging what Pablo said, but just actually talking that out a little bit,

pushing back. How in the world would that work? What would you have to do to get to that point? The time that I thought that it worked least well was when Pablo makes the revelation that he'd spoken with someone that had said, I've, someone called her a sociopath. She is the worst person I've ever met and I've worked with multiple sociopaths. I mean, that is a really weighty allegation to make about somebody in the public square. And you got to, I mean, I don't know if it's quite a joky thing to, you know, like, once you've levied that out there, I mean, it is sort of, it's shocking and it is sort of funny in the way that the quote was delivered. But you got to think that at that point, like somebody says, well, hey, I mean, okay, who all have you worked with

before? Like, what are these other sociopaths you've worked? You know what I mean? Like, or would they say that about a 34-year-old man, you know, that it behaved in a similar way. So I thought that was a little bit unsettling, but I think that, so I heard a lot more about the reporting before I actually listened to the episode. And as I listened to it, I was like, oh, man, there's so much in this story that never came through in those clips and all the other reporting about it. And I wonder if it got buried because there was so much chatter. You know what I mean there was so much like that banter and stuff and the reporting may have gotten a tad lost it didn't come through into aggregation and everything right where if it had been laid out paragraph by paragraph

and a written piece maybe it plays slightly differently yeah i think so too and like a lot of the a lot of the reporting here i don't say a lot of it but some of the reporting here is stuff sources think you know he talks about a source that thinks that maybe hudson wants a reality show about her and Belichick's relationship, which again would be just mind-boy. Bill Belichick crosses that Rubicon boy, we are in interesting territory here. Hard knocks is a reality show, in all fairness. You know what I'm saying? It's all fairness.

And sometimes, you know, you see the coaches. I remember, you know, Sean McVeigh's significant other was part of Hard Knocks back in the day. There are a couple of those things. And again, it's just I don't want to turn everything into a media podcast. God help us. That is the last thing I would ever want to foist on anybody who's not, you know, already in this space, shall we say.

Right. But I just, I feel like podcast banter. There's something interesting about it because people and I include many of our colleagues here have gotten so good at it. That it can at times become, it starts to feel like not human speech. Yeah. Not natural human speech, which is, that's the magic of podcast to me. It's people talking. Right.

Right, right. And you like that. People like to listen to other people talking. And sometimes you get so good at talking. talking that the natural pauses go out, the mangled words come out, or maybe it's edited that way, and it starts to not sound like people talking. Yeah, I think I get what you're saying there. I think the thing is that they wanted to make it accessible.

And I'm not saying I talked to anybody about this, but I felt like maybe they were just Katie and Michael were the stand-ins for the audience. And so it's like putting it in an applause line or a laugh track, right? They were the laugh track for that episode. And, you know, sometimes that works. I mean, obviously it was sort of a unique format. They had not really, I can't remember them having done that before. So, you know, it's sort of the debut of it.

I'm sure if they do it again, like maybe they'll do something different or there'll be sort of some tweaks to it. Sure. Yeah. And I do like hold out that maybe I'm looking at a journalistic organism that I have not encountered in the wild. before. I mean, I remember when podcasts are people like, people are just talking to each other. What's that? Well, you guys just talking for an hour? And I'd be like, okay, well, it is. Turns out it works. People talking to each other for an hour. Some people like listening, man. And I mean, the thing is, like, we always say that a lot of this is about relationships.

Like, people want to hear people that have relationships. And like, that was another way. It's like friends talking about this crazy thing. Hey, man, there's a 73-year-old who's dating a 24-year-old. Let's talk about how wacky that is and all the wacky shit that went along with it. So yeah. And again, Pablo, to his credit, is putting facts out into the universe. Yep. He is making it a more serious story by his reporting. So partly again, maybe that's what I'm reacting to. I mean, man, what do you think the Charlotte Observer in Newsroom is thinking about on a day like that or, you know, whatever? Let's do our own Pablo Tori finds out. How do we do that? Yeah. Right. Can we get somebody from the Metro desk in here to react to our revelations? Item number three, Joel, the new rules of the newsroom.

I'm going to give you two items that came across my desk. Okay. As I banter here with you about the news of the day. All right. Let me have my laugh lines ready here, so I'll make sure I get under my script. Item number one comes from breaker media. Okay. Which is a new outlet or new-ish outlet that is run or co-run by a guy named

Lockland Cartwright. And Lockland and I have been conspiring to get him on this podcast. So that will happen soon. Okay. I'm a big fan of what he does. But Lockland Cartwright had an item. on May 7th that I've just been wanting to talk to you about that happened at the New York Times. The reporter at the New York Times named Rob Copeland, who was working on a big story

about the Trump administration versus Harvard. And he was working with a direct editor named Michael Corkery, but also with one of the business editor of the paper, Ellen Pollock. And I'll read to you from the breaker story here. Pollock had grown frustrated in delay with a story that was about the alma mater of many times reporters and editors. Dot, dot, dot. Things escalated, according to people familiar with the situation, and she proceeded to scream at Copeland for not following directions. According to people familiar with the situation,

she told him if the Harvard story came in over 2,000 words, she would, quote, kill, end quote, him, corkery, and then herself. Dot, dot, dot, dot. Colleagues and friends of Pollock insist her unorthodox bedside manner is well known at the times. And this remark was intended as a joke and not a death threat. But Copeland told her it was a, quote, HR violation, end quote,

and promptly made a complaint. Man. You got to file a restraining order, man, you know, when something like that happens. Against your editor. Yeah. So that's item number one. And this was item number two.

It comes from Sewell Chan. Oh, man. Yeah. Who's had a career in newspapers, ran the Texas Tribune for a while. he posted a statement on LinkedIn saying he was fired by Columbia University. He had been the executive editor of the Columbia Journalism Review. And again, I encourage everybody to go read this full statement.

But Chan writes, I was dismissed 74 hours after being told on Monday afternoon that staff had complained following pointed interactions in which I provided fair and critical feedback rooted in editorial rigor. He outlines some of those interactions and then says, these are normal workplace interactions and I did exactly what I was hired to do, which was to provide rigorous, fair, careful editorial oversight, and raise the metabolism and impact of a publication that's supposed to monitor the media. So let me propose this to you, having given you those two items. The rules of the newsroom have changed since you and I get into the business. But nobody knows what the new rules are.

That's, I mean, so what is, I don't know how old Mr. Copeland is, because a lot of people would write this office sort of like the generational difference, right? They're like the old timers and the young kids who are not going to take that kind of shit anymore. Can I find it sort of interesting because, and again, you know, disclosure, you know, Wesley Lower is a friend of mine, right? I've known him for a long time, and he was dislodged from his position for sort of like a similar, sort of like a very jocular way of talking to somebody, a familiarity that maybe you don't necessarily share. And it's, you know, of course, it was compounded by all the other allegations. And I'm not here to talk about that.

But the thing is, is that people are just not going to be able to talk to each other the way they used to, man. You know what I mean? And like, this is a thing that we're seeing in sports where they're like, oh, man, these kids, they don't want to be coached like they used to be, you know, where people would motherfucker you and talk about you and all that sort of stuff. And people just don't want that sort of language or treatment at the workplace anymore. And like it is different for us.

Like, right? Like I'm kind of like, man, sometimes you kids are a little sensitive. But sometimes people just, they're not used to, you know, somebody saying, I'm going to kill you. You know, right? Even though I know that as I read that, I was like, oh, that's clearly a joke. Right. Like, you don't, I'm not going to report you for that. A lot of people just don't want to put up with that bullshit, man.

Setting aside these two examples, like the old newsroom, the newsroom you and I came up in, there were jokes that crossed lines. Yep. There were maybe, you know, things said that were just said in the heat of battle. And that's how they were excused. It was like, oh, well, you know, that's what it is. Or, oh, you know, that's how editors talk to writers on deadline, especially. Right.

And think of places like the New York Times. Uh-huh. You know, with the level of journalism that's happening, the way you're trying to beat your competitors, all that kind of stuff. Like there was a lot of that that could absolutely be pruned out of newsrooms pretty easily because it just belongs to another era. Right. Same time, I will say that there are ways editors, and again, setting aside these

specific examples, a way an editor can talk to you, and I speak from experience here, where they'd be like, you, you're telling me you can't do this. Actually, you can do this and you better do this. And that is something that gets you to perform at a level that you might not have performed at if somebody said, hey, take your time with a piece. You just file that whenever you're ready. I would be the last person to tell you when to do, you know, like to coach you or to ride you or whatever it is. Like there's a world between those things. And again, I know I'm outlining like a big wide swath of geography there.

But there is a world between those things. And again, I just don't know that anybody in a newsroom. today knows where we have landed. Well, I think there's a couple things. One, I think as a manager, you've got to know, part of your job is to know who the people you're dealing with and what kind of relationship you have with them and what they respond to, right? Like, if you're going to be imbued with that sort of influence and power over a person's

career, you need to know what will work with them and how it might hit them, right? So there's that. But also, man, I just. So I used to work for a guy who used to tell a story. He was the chief, the bureau chief of the Texas AP. And he used to tell a story about how he threw a typewriter in the newsroom when he was angry one time. And I remember at that time, I was like, that's crazy. Like I couldn't have done that.

And look, some people are going to call me a wokester or whatever here. But there's some people for whom that kind of behavior and that sort of language was never in line. Like, you never could, like that era of journalism, like you never had that sort of freedom to talk to people or treat people in a certain way. And so I think the bottom line is that you need to like talk to somebody of like the way that you would talk to anybody on the street, you know, for the most part. Just don't assume the familiarity. Don't assume that people are going to be able to deal with that when you talk to them. And there's all sorts of ways to motivate people and people just need to figure out better ways to do it. You know the other thing, Brian, that I was thinking about with this?

Not working, remote work kind of has changed a lot of this. Right? Like, then you get to pick up sort of like, oh, okay, this person's joking with me. Or like, you know, they're just sort of a, you know, they're sort of a jocular person and they're sort of wild. I know they're not taking it personally. But I'm always on the side of like, don't assume familiarity with people where there is done. I agree. It's changed the interactions.

And, you know, in some ways, probably positively, there's a certain, like, like, oh my God, we're all working five feet away, all these incredibly ambitious people, you know, working five feet away from each other. There's probably like, you know, there's a downside to that too. We always talk about how great newsrooms were when everybody's working together and you get to bounce ideas out. People, there's probably a downside to that too. But then as you say, there's a downside of translation.

Like you're sending something as a text message, a slack message instead of saying something, you know, you're putting something a different way. I just think this is fascinating. And like I said, I don't think anybody, I think there's some. stuff we could circle and be like, don't do that. That's obviously unacceptable. If that was ever, that should have never been acceptable, really, you know, just because we, we heard those kind of things in the old days. And we turned out okay. That doesn't mean it's okay or ever was okay. Yeah. I don't think people actually know what the rules are anymore. I think that's right.

I mean, because you know what? When you're thinking of the newsroom, let me just imagine what you're thinking of, Brian, old dusty place, kind of dark, the lights are sort of low, all the, all the cubicles the field, right? Like, there's a lot of people in there and there's a bugs. But in fact, it's probably not very many people in there. A lot of people are working remotely, working from home or in the field. Yeah, it's quieter than you do. It's quieter. Yeah. And so, like, yeah, because I was like, oh, yeah, like, you're thinking that like these people are right next to each other and they can go into each other's office and talk it out. That's probably not how a lot of this shit is going down. Should we finish up with Pete Rose and shoeless Joe Jackson somehow

becoming sports content again? Brian, it's almost summer. in terms of the baseball calendar. So, yeah, it's no surprise that we're going to start talking about Pete Rose. Like, we're the ringer's morning zoo, just to say that. It's almost summer, but it's the winter of content. We're talking about Pete Rose again. Right. Yeah, so why are we talking about Pete Rose?

Well, on Tuesday, MLB Commissioner Robert Manfred effectively lifted Rose's lifetime ban by announcing a new policy that permanent ineligible, quote, ends upon the passing of the disciplined individual, which makes sense. So, let's back up for a second to remind everyone of why. Rose, who is Major League Baseball's all-time hits leader, why he's not already in Cooperstown. There was an investigation into Rose. It turned up he'd bet on baseball as a player and a player manager when he was with the Cincinnati Reds, and he'd first denied gambling, then later said he was led to believe he could apply for reinstatement a year after agreeing to the

punishment. So he accepted the Lifetime ban in 89, and then the Hall of Fame instituted the rule that would keep him out in 91, which is a year before his first year of eligibility will be on the ballot. Man, Brian, I still can't believe I'm saying this. Pete Rose died last September at the age of 83. The dying and the 83-year-olds of it all just makes me feel old, right? 1,000 percent. Shocking. I saw Pete Rose play against the Astros. But anyway, not long after his death, Rose's family petitions Manfred to lift the ban. Why did Manfred lift the ban, though? Was it Donald Trump? Yes, it was. Let me go ahead and answer that in the affirmative. Okay. Yeah. So there was that post.

on February 28th that Donald Trump has, and I'll just, I'll go to his last sentence here to sort of sums it all up. Baseball, which is dying all over the place, should get off its fat, lazy ass, and elect Pete Rose, even though far too late into the Baseball Hall of Fame. He also said that he will be signing

a complete pardon of Pete Rose, which raises the question. Donald Trump had been president before. Why didn't he pardon Pete Rose while he was alive? Yeah, can we blame that on Joe Biden, too? Yeah, I mean, Joe Biden should have acted. The worst president ever refused to pardon Pete Rose while he was still alive. Yeah, but I mean, it's unclear that Trump could have pardoned him because that was not really related to what the MLB does.

But Manfred and Trump met the White House at the end of April. And Manfred said then that they discussed, can you imagine? Donald Trump calls you in and he wants to talk about Pete Rose. Yeah. And again, this is a throwback to like the early 2010s Trump where he was just tweeting about anything in the news. That's how the Rosie O'Donnell thing is always, I think. Robert Pattinson, which is like, yeah, I heard this some relationship problems. Let me weigh in on that. Somehow Pete Rose got put back into the bloodstream and MLB is like, hey, you know, we're everybody's, everybody's doing something for Trump. So maybe this is their way of doing something for him. I have, I mean, that just, it absolutely blows my mind. Yeah, I mean, it's the easy thing to do, and they're getting off their fat, lazy ass. And also, like, I mean, without relitigating this, it kind of is the right thing to do, I think, right?

Like, I mean, I don't know. Are we going to have this discussion? We're going to have should Pete Rose be in the Hall of Fame? Do you want to make a difference? You want to talk about Roger Clemens instead then? With that, make it a little bit more. They should be in the Hall of Fame. Yes.

Gary Bonds, Roger Clemmon should be in the Hall of Fame. Okay. All right. I just will add a couple of things here. One is like every Pete Rose in the Hall of Fame has been the subject. from my entire life of consuming media. Yes. And there are people who have opinions about this.

I was reading Joe Sheehan, who I believe was against it. You should subscribe to his newsletter to read more about that. Again, there are people that have fought these wars that are veterans of these wars. And I like, I grant them their opinion. That's cool, whatever. I'm just like, oh my goodness. I mean, how many books have been written about Pete Rose? Like, you know, Costa Kennedy, Keith O'Brien just wrote one.

I think a year ago, two years ago now. I mean, Pete Rose was also one of the, and this, by the way, used to something you should always understand when people talk about Pete Rose that are older than us. He was the go-to interview for his career. He was on the all-availability team,

Pete Rose. Like, you sat down in a locker, you got a ton of stuff from him, which colored a lot of writers' reactions to Pete Rose, because he was feeding them. And how many times even after his banishment did we see writers go visit him an autograph signing in Las Vegas, you know, where he was signing baseballs and get material

from Pete Rose. Oh, yeah. Pete, I mean, Pete, again, it's kind of weird because I felt like him not being in the Hall of Fame only enhanced his legend, right? Like, it's just kind of weird because it's like, I don't know, I feel like he made as much money not being in the Hall of Fame as he would have if he'd just gone into Cooper's Town. That would have been more boring. It would have been. It would have been. And it made him like unresolved in a way. You know, he's the hit king. He's one of the greatest players in baseball history. But he's not in the Hall of Fame. So there was, I mean, this is, this is why the film,

Field of Dreams was made about Shulah's Joe Jackson, right? There's something unresolved in his life. Yeah. That is a subject of books, radio segments, everything forever. Do you think people go to Cooperstown, like hoping, like, to see the Pete Rose plaque? I mean, come on. You know what I mean? No.

No. I, by the way, as soon as I got, I didn't get to either Hall of Fame until, got much older. I'm talking about baseball and football here. And it was so boring to me. Oh, my God. I love baseball history. If you give me a book, you know, give me an old article, like I will just devour that. But to go look at plaques, oh, man, I just imagine it's such a magical place. And I was just like, eh, dude, that's fine. I talked about Tatum earlier. I went to the Hall of Fame in Springfield. It has a subway in there, not a subway like a train, like a sandwich shop. It was just so, oh, yeah. I don't know if that thing is still in there.

But it was just really underwhelming. So, yeah, I think the Hall of Fame is a really nice concept. But in practice, it's just kind of like, okay, cool. I was watching Abby Phillips show, and she was talking about the controversy. I believe our buddy Van was on there. Oh, but of course, like this was now, it's like a CNN prime time. And she put up an AP file photo of Shulish Joe that was about the most unflattering picture a human being could ever have.

And I'm like, is this going to hurt Shulish Joe's? chances that he is not, in fact, Ray Leota. Oh, no. As he is in the public imagination, he's this just guy. Does he look like Y Tittle with his head bleeding on the field or something like that? Not that far off. It really isn't. It's very unflattering.

It's like, can we get another photo of Shoeless Joe for the cable news treatment? You want a Shoeless Joe story before we get out of here? I would love a Shoetless Joe story. Okay. So this is from Grantland Rice. Grantlin Rice, you know, one of the big celebrity sports writers, the first half of the 20th century. He wrote a memoir called

The Tumult and the Shouting. And this story always stuck with me from his book. He was traveling around the south with Thai Cobb. This is 1947. First of all, just like paused to make a sports writer

and Thai Cobb are driving around the South together. They'd just gone to the Masters in Augusta. And they're driving through South Carolina after the golf tournament. And I'll read to you here. It says, as we drove into Greenville,

South Carolina. Ty said, Grant, I've got an old friend in this town. Let's find him. Driving up to the next cop, he asked where he might find Joe Jackson. Again, just to give you the timing here, 1947, almost three decades after Jackson has been banned from baseball, he's an old man now. He would die four years after this story. We continue here. Informed he worked in a small liquor store on such and such street, we found it and went in. And behind the counter was Jackson. waiting his turn, Ty Cobb stepped up, looked the old boy in the eye and said,

how's business? Just fine, sir, replied Jackson, turning his back to rearrange his shelf. Don't you know me, you old buzzard, said Cobb? Jackson wheeled around. Christ, yes, I know you grinned, Joe. I just didn't think you knew me after all these years.

I didn't want to embarrass you or nothing. Man. Imagine that? Again, let's just again, pour the mountain of salt, just like we did with the David Pluff quote on any sports writer's story probably told the first half of the

20th century. But Joe Jackson sees Ty Cobb come up to him and says, Christ, yes, I know you, I just didn't think you knew me after all these years. I don't want to embarrass you. Working in a liquor store. Did he at least own that liquor store? Yes, I looked this up. I believe it was known as Joe Jackson's liquor store.

I mean, you know, I mean, thank goodness for that man then. Hopefully he had a Jordan Hudson in his life. It was helping to catch in. Yeah, that's right. You know. On his, on his fame. Two things. We got to get out of here. But you saw Nick Cage as John Madden on Twitter? The person that came up with this idea is brilliant.

You think so? I'm locked in, bro. I'm going to. This is a conversation for another time, but like, don't you feel defensive about your own nostalgia being sold back to you as a movie as I do? I get territorial. I'm like, eh. I don't watch enough movies to have, you know, like this is the thing that I'm like,

this is something that is right in my will house. I can't wait to watch it. I'm sorry. I hope it doesn't ruin it for me, and I'm sure it will, but I'm willing to go in, open-minded at least. The second thing we got this week was the notice that a TV show called The Paper, we talked about on this podcast. It's kind of a sequel to the office in the sense that Oscar works at the paper, but it's not a paper company like the one in Scranton. It's a Midwestern newspaper that the inhabitants are trying to keep alive. So newspapers have become like sadness factories like the office in the office.

Like this is kind of where we are. I mean, you know, I can see this kind of being like the Parks and Rec show. You know what? Well, this is good for journalism? These true believers. I mean, what is going to be good for journalism this year? I mean, you know. Well, I'll tell you what might be good for journalism.

How about the preakness this weekend? Hey, man. Eight to five favorite. Is that right? Eight to five favorite. Do we like being the favorite? Because that didn't work out so well last time. Look, man, finishing second is not the worst thing in the world.

You know, that's still a great showing. And it suggests that there's greatness ahead. We can only go up from there. Well, actually, you can also go down too. You saw the shoot maker button. Your journalism finished second. I did. I did.

So what happens if he wins? Is Dave going to have to make another button? Yes, he is going to have to make another button. I have not shipped those off to be printed yet. I've already had at least two people. Thank you, those of you who have been playing in my email, suggesting funny headlines, suggesting top. and everything. They're already down for

press box 2025 buttons. All right. Let's do it. But we're going to have to wait just to see if journalism pulls it off because this may be the year journalism finished first. I mean, look, man, he's got time. The thing is people kind of tune out after the Kentucky Derby, but we're committed here. We're behind journalism and we're going to follow them all the way through the end

here. Hell yeah. He is Joel Anderson. I'm Brian Curtis. Brexit Magic. By Bobby Wagner. Shoemaker's back Monday. Joel, I'll talk to you next Thursday with more lukewarm takes about the media. Can't wait.