The Press Box - Was Bey-chella Peak Coachella? | Jam Session

Episode Date: April 17, 2019

The documentary about Beyonce’s 2018 Coachella performance premiered this week and immediately overshadowed the actual Coachella festival (0:43). We analyze some seemingly staged paparazzi photos of Katie Holmes and Jamie Foxx (24:50). Plus, a check-in with the royal family (40:49). Hosts: Juliet Litman and Amanda Dobbins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome to Jam Session. I'm Juliet Littman. I'm Amanda Dobbins. Beyonce brought some new content into the world last night. Beyonce's back. We'll talk about that. Also, we want to talk about the latest

with long-standing couple, Katie Holmes and Jamie Fox. And I made a personal trip last weekend to see Diana the musical in La Jolla, California. I'd like to tell you about Amanda. And let's just get into it. it. Let's talk about Beyonce, first and foremost. She has a documentary on Netflix. It's very long.

It is very long. Well, here's what you have to remember. So this documentary is called Homecoming, and it is the filmed version of her historic transcendent performance at Coachella last year. Right, one year ago. And it is both... Feels longer, by the way. It does. Yeah, I mean, life just takes on. It's endless now. It moves very fast and it's also endless. There's so much to go on. So it is the filmed version of that, along with some... behind-the-scenes footage of how the concert was put together and some narration and insight from Beyonce. It is directed by Beyonce, executive produced by Beyonce. It is her own vision of last year's Coachella performance. And we should also note that she

released it, she and Netflix released it, between 2019 Coachella Weekends. Right. Which is very funny. It is very funny. And I've already spent more time thinking and consuming this content than I have anything to do with actual Coachella this year. Related to that, I've heard the Coachella live stream is, like, very poor. Like, it's, like, not well done at all. And so I would say the Beyonce documentary, the concert footage is really nice. Looks really cool. It's fantastic.

And I think, remember, we spent a lot of time talking about this performance last year because we were really quite moved by it. It is really just an artistic triumph. Beyonce is an incredible pop star and an incredible dancer and performance artist. And so we talked a lot about it and how great it was. And in many ways, like the concert performance aspects of this are, it's really well filmed, but it's like not that different from the live stream that we watched last year because that was also really well filmed. And it was like being at Coachella and getting to experience it. And she, one of the interesting things about the documentary is that she was thinking so much about how the performance would translate on film, even as she's putting it together.

But we didn't know at the time. But, I mean, you can kind of tell because you were just like, wow, this looks great. It's like I'm there. Yeah. It did look, I think, you're not going to now realize like she was involved in the live stream aspect of it as well and everything. It's impressive. I mean, it's also amazing that she, like many great artists, like kind of can find ways to like repackage what she's doing to still make it innovative and feel. Like, it's not new music, but it still feels different.

I listened to the live album this morning, actually, when I woke up because I saw that it. that was available on Spotify. And it was just funny because earlier in the week, you know, we were talking about how Lemonade is not on Spotify. Oh, yeah, that's true. We were. I have, like, a lot of haters' takes on the documentary. Okay.

Do you—I mean, would you like to share them? Yes, I would like to share them. First of all, you directed me to watch her, like, sort of there's like a three-minute portion around in, like, the second hour, in the middle of the second hour. Yeah. Where she's kind of talking about her intentions and what she wanted from the film, and then you see her talking to, like,

kind of like creative staff or whatever. Yeah, she's given feedback. Yeah, and it's pretty impressive. And the way that she speaks to them is like very stern. And then she tries to end on a positive note. Like, I know everyone's working hard. Like, we'll get it, which I thought was like all great, like, CEO behavior. But there's such dissonance.

There's just a lot of dissonance around this project to me. Number one being, why is her VO, her voiceover in the film, really low quality audio when you're looking at pristine concert footage? Yeah. I mean, there's some creative. choices here, like everything that is not the live video from Coachella, I think, and this seems to be a choice to contrast between like, now you're watching the concert and now you're watching rehearsal footage, but much of the rehearsal and behind the scenes footage is kind of like done in an Instagram

filter. Yeah. And she is narrating, but the narrating is like she left you a voicemail. Yes. Those are specific creative choices that are strange to me. I have a conspiracy about that. Okay. Which is, I think a lot of what she was doing was focusing. on the live stream so that people everywhere could watch it, and then after the fact decided to turn this into, like, a Netflix film. And so it sort of, like, stitched together a little bit. I think that's probably true. I think you also...

And there's nothing wrong with that, by the way. I'm not, like, critical of that. But I just think it's, like, weird that it sounds like she's on the phone. Like, as people who do and listen to podcasts, like, it's just worse when someone's on the phone. Yeah. And it felt very much like a second rate compared to a lot of the rest of it. Well, I don't think that it's, like, an after-the-fact. thought because we have to keep in mind that like Beyonce has a personal archivist.

She has people filming herself at all times. She's always thinking about how to present herself and recording and memorializing things so that she can use it for content. And you know, this has several montages that are like the montages that show up at her concerts, which are like very quick flash images of the family and her and Jay and the kids and all of the things that people get really excited about. So she makes pretty specific decisions about how to put all this stuff together. I just think that maybe she thinks it's like personal, personalized, like Instagram friendly.

I don't know. It's like it's not how I would have put it together. Yeah. But I don't think that it's for lack of thought. Sure. How about that? Sure. I just think it kind of reinforces.

I guess maybe this is confirmation bias. But I just think there's such a huge difference between Beyonce when she's on stage and performing and Beyonce in any other venue. And I include like her photo shoots as like a variety. of her performance and like this in like the really amazing photos you'll see in vogue or elsewhere as like incredible art like she's I think her art is really amazing and important and impressive but then I think there's a real dissonance between um how her voice comes through in those moments versus when you actually hear her talking and it's and I think part of that is because you only hear her speak in in the documentaries about herself that she produces basically yeah and so

it's like, it's kind of weird to, there's just, to me, like, a real imbalance between the person who is speaking, who has decided, like, this is the time I'm going to talk and I'm going to tell you what I'm thinking. And she, you know, kind of like the other example I was thinking of her HBO documentary, which was a few years ago. And I can't think of that many other times when I've heard her voice when she's just speaking. And then also, like, if I went to the tour for Beyonce and when she does, like, kind of, she talks around the concert and shows some films of her or whatever. There's a real dissonance to me between the level of polish between her talking and then like her art. And I think her art is incredibly powerful and she's really important.

And like a weird way I find some of her like soliloquies like undercut the weight of the work she puts into her performance. Right. Because she's trying to, she's doing myth making. But like the way that Beyonce makes messes in her performance and her art and in her mastery of music and visuals and putting those all together. And she is a tremendous songwriter. And there is like a writing and storytelling involved in all of that. But it's, you know, when you're just like sitting there putting together speeches or, you know, small monologues, they sometimes don't have the same impact that like her dancing and her artwork does. So I get that.

My thing is also, you know, mythmaking is important and we talk a lot about it on this podcast and she does it so well. but I found myself just wanting more of the behind-the-scenes stuff. Yeah. Because she is so smart and this and so intentional and, like, has a genius mind for this. Like, literally is a genius about this stuff. And I want to know how it happens. I pointed that scene to you of her giving feedback because, you know, I thought it was fascinating. It's always interesting to see women in power.

Like, there are 50 people in a room and she's giving precise instructions and asking for more. And, like, Jay-Z is just, like, sitting right next to her in silence. I mean, it's fascinating, but it's interesting just to watch those types of business situations because you don't really see them as much. Yeah. But it is just also interesting to me to see how this works. Like how our first question after watching this was like, how did they keep this silent? Like hundreds of people worked on this and all signed NDAs and there were no leaks, nothing.

And I want to know how that happens. And I want to know like the rehearsals. And I want to know what she's looking for when she's, you know, putting the set together. I find people who are this good at what they do, they come alive and are most interesting when they're just talking about their work. Yeah. And she stays away from that for some reason. And I guess, you know, there is the trade-off of you don't want to see, like, it loses its magic when you go behind the scenes a bit. So I understand that.

And I understand that she is trying to create a larger image and maybe doesn't want to show the humanity behind it for a lot of reasons. Yeah. And to that point with the humanity behind it, she's. She also makes a point, which is obviously true, to be like, it takes so many people to do this. Like, it's not just me. But then she pivots to, like, I did this, I did that, I did that. And, like, I think it's awesome that she takes credit where she deserves it. But I also think that it's, like, weird to obscure all the people who work on her stuff that, in a way that, like, I'm like, I want to check the credits to, like, see who else worked on this.

And, like, I don't usually care. And it's weird to, like, to me, it's just weird to, like, go out of your way to be, like, so many people worked on this and then to just sort of like to assume all of the credit. To me, it's, like, literally no different than what. what male directors have been doing for like hundreds of years and still do. And then sometimes they'll be like, well, you know, my costume design or whatever. But the entire study of like cinematic history is built around like great male directors. So I think that's messed up too. So it's, which is totally messed up.

So in some ways I don't mind her doing the same thing. Sure. I thought a lot about, have you ever had anyone make you watch The Last Waltz? No. So Last Waltz is a documentary, what's a concert and then a documentary about the band? directed by Martin Scorsese, which is like a classic dude you know in your early 20s makes you watch this shit because it's the most important stuff in the world. And it was like boring out of my mind. But for a certain type of serious dude, it's like a really important film.

And I don't care about that at all. But I like that we have this version. Yeah. And I like that Beyonce is working on this level. Sure. Yeah. I agree with you. I just think there's a lot, I just think that, like, there's a lot of, like, I said, like, dissidents.

And I don't know, you're, like, not supposed to criticize her. So I like to criticize her. Yeah. I mean, you know, is it necessary? Is this documentary totally necessary? I don't know. I think probably more people will watch this, be able to watch this, who didn't catch the live stream. Yeah. Even though I think a lot of people watch the live stream. And I do think it's a higher quality than the live stream. Yeah. I mean, it looks, it looks really, really good. You know, I think she also kind of explicates or makes, you know, the inspirations were pretty clear in the actual performances, but she talks about the debt to, like, historically back colleges and universities. Yeah.

And she, you know, quotes other black artists. And she's kind of making those influences and references really clear, which is of value to people who, like, maybe need that education. Sure. So. Yeah, and she talks about how she always wanted to go to an HBCU and everything. You know, and she talks again about the struggle of her pregnancy and then kind of balancing that. It's not like she doesn't give like a ton of information and a lot of it is about her diet. And that's obviously the first thing that people have gommed on to, which says as much about us as about her.

But, you know, I think as a document, it's useful. It's things that we all knew, but. Sure. We pay a lot of attention to these things and having it on Netflix for anyone. I think there's value in that. Sure. I also liked the moment where you saw that there was some, like, giving her massage, like, when she's in the middle of the meeting. That was funny, too.

I just, I find, like, the constant myth-making, like, just kind of exhausting. I wish she was just a little bit more, like, Frank. But at the same time, I mean, I find her art, like, really amazing. I think the concert footage is awesome. Yeah. She says somewhere in there I want to create something that lasts, like, beyond me. Yeah. And that is what myth-making does.

Right. If it was just about her and, like, her dramas, we would. know a lot more about her and it might be more vital in this moment. It's true. It's not the thing that lives on. Totally. I just like, hey, that she's like, you can't criticize her. So that I just feel so compelled to do it because it's like taboo for whatever reason.

Yeah, I just, it's hard to criticize anyone in a, the way that. I don't agree. I like to, I criticize everyone. Well, no, I mean, you and I do all the time, but I just think like the way that people talk about anything in public now is so, it's. polarized. You're like either like St. Beyonce or you're, you know, the worst person or you're canceled. Doesn't give enough credit. You know, like it's just kind of there are no nuances. There's no room for actual critical discussion. And she is a prime example of that because she has such like a vicious, obsessed fan base. Yeah. Who will really come after anyone. And I don't find that of value either.

Me either. But I think it is possible to have an interesting discussion of of her and celebrity and art and how they go together. I just don't think you can have them with, like, internet commenters. Yeah, you definitely can't. And I like respect your diligence, obviously, and, like, her commitment to the work. I don't say you have to like her. Yeah. I think this is, like, this is good.

This is not, it's not lemonade. It's not the self-titled drop. I mean, maybe it is in a way because this is also her live performance is part of her what makes her so special. And this is kind of memorializing that and giving it to a lot of people who can't go to her concert. Yeah. I don't want to go to her concert, but I like watching her perform. So I'm happy with it. Yeah. It's also it's just, um, Netflix is very impressive. It's kind of like getting this done, I guess. Also, it's interesting to me that she's just sort of like back to being multi-platform, basically. Like I, you know, obviously there was the title era. And now the like the 40 track album is on Apple and Spotify and this is on Netflix. And it's sort of. Back to, I appreciate it as someone who never signed up for title, even for the Beyonce drop. Three months ago, I learned that I was still paying for title, even though I hadn't listened to anything on it. I think I signed up for their joint, their surprise joint album, which was on Spotify like four days later.

Right. But then I forgot to cancel title. And I appreciate that I don't have to re-sign up for title for this. I was paying for AOL for a very long time. Did Beyonce kill Coachella? Like, was this just sort of like the peak? Like, will it ever get as good or as impactful or as meaningful? I don't think it will ever be as great.

It's really, really hard to do what she did at a festival live setting when you don't have total control over everything. And also, you know, the significance of it. She was the first black female artist to headline Coachella, which is nuts. I mean, also nuts. but because it's 20 years this fall, I believe. But the significance of it, the surprise of it, the scale of it, I don't think that you'll ever get there. Also, Coachella. Did you watch any of the Ariana Grande performance?

No, how was it? I just watched the like two minutes of Insink and then some of the other stuff. It was good. I don't know. It's definitely weird to get in sync Fitzhaws and Timberlake and to only have them for like one song. But I guess it was two songs because she samples. It makes me ill. Right.

So they did a little bit of that. And then they went into, I think, tearing up my heart. And it was good. I mean, I like her music. I think that we're a little, her music is like, we've reached a saturation point. Like, it was like too much, too quickly. I really like a lot of her hits. And obviously, she's very resilient.

But, you know, maybe she's very young. So maybe she'll get to the Beyonce level of craft. She's not there yet. I think it'll be different, which is fine. You know, she's primarily a vocalist. She'll never really be a performer in the physical way that Beyonce is, which is, you know, different people. You don't, everyone has to do different stuff. It's interesting to me, like, does Coachella matter anymore?

I don't know. Some of the Vanderpump Rules cast one, but not all of them. Some of them were in Florida, and I felt like that was an indictment. They usually travel in packs. Maybe it's just kind of gone back to the appropriate level of significance. Sure. Because there was a moment there where it was just everyone was living. For like 2013 to 2018 for like five years.

It was like a huge, huge thing. Right. And they expanded it to two weekends. It was like kind of like the Coachella era. And maybe we're done with the Coachella era. And maybe and like and then it can exist in people who are interested in going to the desert and doing whatever you do in the desert and experiencing music. Drugs. You know what?

Maybe, maybe not. Up to you. Swim in a pool? Yeah. Just look at the stars. There are lovely stars out there. Whatever you want to do. But maybe it's just kind of receded to just a normal level of cultural significance.

Sure. Yeah, I think that sounds appropriate for everyone. But also, like, getting there such a pain. That's, like, among many reasons why I would never go to Coachella. Well, I'm not talking. I didn't ask whether Coachella, like, matters to us. Because you and I are, have you been? No, I went to a stage coach a few years ago.

And that was fun. but I never want to go again. And also, like, I, like, left early every day. I didn't make it to the end. Yeah. And it was, I think I didn't even attend Sunday. It's not for me. Music festivals are in no way for me.

Yeah. That doesn't mean that I can't appreciate, you know, other people, that meeting something of other people. Sure. And their place in the zeitgeist. But it seems like both, it seems like the zeitgeist is coming to me. Do you, you, the Bachelor star, they all like go on to be Instagram influencers now and like into the Revolve scene.

And I guess Revolve has like a really big party there every year. Yeah. And so I saw a lot of that on Instagram and everyone's outfits were just like so ridiculous. And I saw one bachelor person who I won't name just being like it's amazing how hard all the influencers work. Like they just, it's like, you know, they hustle every day. And like while that is true, I think it is like a slog to make Instagram your livelihood. I was just like, do you really need to be complimenting?

Like these Instagram influencers for working really hard. I don't know. And I was just like, this is a weird Rubicon. I mean, they did go to Coachella and we didn't. It's true. The only person I follow who went to Coachella, are you familiar with the Instagram? I don't know whether we would call him an influencer because I think he's more of like a comedian content creator. Sure.

Ricky Thompson. No, I don't know him. Do you know about him? You've possibly seen one of his videos that went very viral. that ends with like success and he puts his arms. All right, I'll show it to you later. We can. I don't know it.

He also recently had dinner with Adele, which I thought maybe he would have come up on your radar. Interesting. In New York or L.A.? In Los Angeles. He is extremely talented and he was at Coachella and Shining and I felt great about that. And it's kind of like that's who should be at Coachella. And I will look at his photos and. Many Real Housewives were there as well of Beverly Hill.

All right. So that's how another way made its way into my Instagram feed. Yeah. So the reality stars were there is what I'm saying. And the influencers. Well, that seems like America in 2019. It's surprising there's not an Instagram filter called Coachella. Don't you think there could be one?

Is there not one? I don't think so. That's like a missed opportunity for branded content by everyone involved. I completely agree. Do you think Instagram wants to be associated that closely with Coachella, though? Because it kind of already is. But at some point that's like, there are only so many people who are going to invest in the Coachella vibe and spirit.

And if that's, like, the only way to use Instagram, then that's closing your markets, you know? That's true. That's true. I don't know, like, what the ideal brand alignment is for Instagram. It's so many things of so many people that I don't even know. Yeah, that I think they just have to, like, chase all brands welcome policy. Yeah, absolutely. And because it's certainly not the same as, like, the Super Bowl, but I'm sure they also want to be there.

Yeah. It's just interesting. I keep forgetting there's a whole other weekend of it coming. I mean, the other thing is back to, like, its influence, very tough to go up against Tiger Woods' redemption story, Game of Thrones, and the NBA playoffs. I mean, playoffs are probably like the least important of those things. But I just feel like it didn't even win the weekend. And like not even like, I think it's like number three on that list of four big things, at least to the ringer universe, happened last weekend. Sure.

It's like a clear number three behind. Tiger and Game of Thrones. Yeah. I mean, the other thing is just that even with the live stream and with Instagram and everything we were talking about, it really is like a situational and exclusive experience. Like, not that many people can go and participate in it. And there is something very different in watching like a live stream of Ariana Grande versus watching the Tiger Woods winning the Masters.

Just in terms of like CBS is really experienced in an art directing that stuff. They did. And Ariana Grande, I didn't hire Beyonce. Right, exactly. Which again, credit to Beyonce. Yeah, maybe she should have. I'm just like understanding the opportunity and the ways to turn this small thing into something larger, which is a gift that and both an insight and like the logistical and abilities to be able to pull that off.

It's specifically Beyonce. I will say it's probably like good, in some ways, good for Coachella for it to be experiential and not like something that's like mass commodified across like digital platforms. Because like the trend, I think there's like an aspect of FOMO that you want people to have. so they like want to be there because ultimately they make money from brands and being there and ticket sales and whatnot. You know, concerts are meant to be taken in in person and like not necessarily like some kind of major discussion piece.

So I'm told. I know, so I'm told too. That's why I'm happy to have homecoming because I don't want to go to a concert. I'd rather watch her from home. All right. I really want to talk about Katie Holmes and Jamie Fox. But first, let's talk about today's sponsor. Today's episode is brought you by philo.tv.

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she of Dawson's Creek and formerly married to Tom Cruise and Jamie Fox. Like, I don't even know how to categorize him. I would just say he's like really famous guy actor. Like, what do you think is, what's the most famous thing that Jamie Fox has done? That's a great question. I mean, he won an Oscar for being in Ray.

Yes, but that's definitely not his most famous movie. Let's see. I mean, at the Ringer, collateral is probably his most famous movie. It's really true. I love collateral, but I, again, don't think that's, like, the most famous thing about Jamie Fox. Like, is it, at this point, is it being on the Gold Digger song with Kanye West? Like, what is it? I don't, he's just, like, generally famous.

I think he's most famous to you for discovering Ed Shearin. Isn't that correct? Yes, for me, it's discovering and fostering career at Ed Shearin. He's done a lot of things in his spans, like, a long career. And I guess there are probably not that many people who remember in Living Color. It's just amazing. He's just been, also ageless. I would believe he's 37.

I believe he's 47. I believe he's 57. Anyway, for five years, five. He's been dating Katie Holmes. Five years? I think it's a long time. I'll fact check that number in a second. We can do a pickup.

But he's been dating Katie Holmes for a really long time. And it was a secret for a while. This is the other thing. It was like a badly kept secret. It was a badly kept secret. And recently he stopped doing an interview. He walked out when he was asked about Katie Holmes. Like this was in 2019. And many people didn't believe this relationship. I didn't at first. But I actually believe it now. I think they really are dating. Okay. Do you think they're dating? I don't know what to believe. Let's just let's go back through the history. So it was rumors for a while. And it was. It wasn't too long after her Tom Cruise divorce. Yes, not too long. And it was extremely secret, and for a while, like, I don't even think there were paparazzi photos. And then there would be the occasional, like, hiding in a, you know, behind a gate or long lens into pretty invasive. Yes. Paparazzi photographs.

Or, like, one time, fairly recently they were spotted at the, was this paparazzi or was just this someone? one reported to us. At the Center City Mall? No, at the Malibu Fair. Oh, that was, I think we just reported. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We didn't see pictures of that. Okay. So it was just kind of like data points coming together, but it was very clear that they were not public about it. And there was something about the known aspect of it. It was kind of like, we know this is happening, but they don't want to share it at all that made it seem strange. I think also because it was so close to the Tom Cruise situation, which we just all continue to have a million questions about and will until the end of time or until like someone outlives him and writes a memoir. But we were just skeptical of anything like we just had a lot of questions about Katie Holmes and the choices that she was making. Yes. And Jamie Fox.

Because Jamie Fox very famously brought his daughter on like every red carpet appearance for a while and just sort of lives a pretty private. at life until apparently this week. And so, like, I'm telling you, I think it was at the Super Bowl, like a couple of months ago, he walked off an interview when he was asked by Katie Holmes. He did not want to talk about it. And then last week, the Daily Mail ran grainy photos that look, and they're really grainy. So that's why I'm pretty sure they were not staged of Katie and Jamie at the Century City Mall here in Los Angeles. Okay. Like Dantai Fong? I don't know. They just were walking around. They apparently had spent four hours there. So I assume they went to a movie, though, like I do understand how one is able to spend a lot of time there.

That is, you know, it's a great mall. They're with his daughter. And I was like, okay, cool. I guess they were, I was like, this seems like kind of legit to me. Okay. What-Eves? And then yesterday, the Daily Mail gives us a gift of a photo article with the head with the headline, Katie Holmes looks happier than ever as she strolls hand-to-hand with both

Jamie Fox in New York. And these photos are staggering. They have a clarity that no photos of Jamie Foxx. and Katie Holmes have had before. They're like, definitely could be printed at 300 DPI. They are from theimedirect.com, which is not a usual photo agency for the Daily Mail. They very consciously don't even look close to the camera. They're like looking down or each other or like straight heads, like at an angle where

they're like pretending to ignore the cameras. And she's wearing an absurd outfit. She's wearing a dogfish head ale hat that's like a truck. her hats like white netting and blue in the front. And then she's wearing like, it looks like a Patagonia sweatshirt, but I know it's fancier than that in gray and it's oversized. And then she's wearing oversized gray torn up Park City sweatpants. And, um...

Oh, I thought they were like purposely. I thought they were distressed. Distressed. Yeah. Fashion distressed sweatpants. You're right. They are. Okay.

They are. I mean, they could have not been. No, you're correct. And then she was wearing, um, uh, Diachel toes with red stripes. Mm-hmm. And meanwhile, he's dressed for like something slightly. different, but, oh, and then, of course, she has a, I believe this is a Gucci fanny pack, like, around her neck, though, like, over her shoulder as, like, the hip way that, like, many NBA

players wear their fanny packs these days. Meanwhile, he's wearing, like, a really nice black overcoat with, like, leather detailing, also wearing distressed pants, a crew neck sweatshirt that says, like, squared something. And then I think these are, like, fancy Gucci sneakers that I, but I don't know, because I'm not cool. And I think these photos are staged. We talked about it. And I was like, I, at DMG, I was like, Amanda, I think that Katie and Jamie are doing paparazzi photos now.

And you were like, yeah, I didn't even assume that I assumed they were. It didn't occur to me that these were candid or them being caught out by the paparazzi. I looked at it and my honest reaction, I was like, oh, so they're going public. They've decided, they've made the choice to be photographed and be public. That's just, like, I looked at a photograph and that was my instant reaction because they are so clearly aware of the camera, comfortable for the camera, purposeful for the camera. There's also one of these pictures. One photo catches a paparazzi behind them. So they're being photographed like at multiple

angles and everything. Yeah. This is like a big deal. Can I follow up for you? Yes. Today, there were paparazzi photos. They're still in New York. Yeah, she lives on the Upper West Side. And there is it, so they aren't together in this photograph, but Jamie Fox is picking up luggage and he is holding his phone out while picking up the luggage in a way that, like, you wouldn't do this, to show that it is Katie Holmes on FaceTime. Here, look at this. It's so weird. I didn't even see this this morning. I just found this.

Oh, wow. So they are clearly, they've made a decision to go public. Also, once again, that's from the ImageDirect.com. I don't really know that credit that well. And I look at the Daily Mail, like, hourly. So, like, that's, like, also, that's, like, noteworthy. Someone's, like, someone's getting the exclusive. Can we just, like, one second here.

Sure. Just a side note. We'll talk about the implications of this being a FaceTime with Katie Holmes. But what's up with people just, like, FaceTiming and not looking each other? You know? FaceTime is, like, really taken over. Why? What is useful about that?

I don't know, Amanda. Like, people aren't even holding or looking at it. It's just kind of like they're waving their phone around, and you're just looking at blurry pictures of the sidewalk and stuff? It's really weird. Also, presumably, like, he just left her. So, like, they're just, like, using FaceTime instead of the phone. One thing I've heard is that celebrities like to use FaceTime because then they can

know if, like, other people are in the room. Like, you can, like, make people, like, show so you can, but I don't think that's why they're doing it. Okay. If I had to guess. It's just, anyway. So this is very, they've clearly made a decision to go public. Yeah.

It's really interesting. Like, I don't know why now. And it's just really. really weird. I'm, like, confused by this. And then the photos of Katie Holmes in this, in this Daily Mail article, are from Backgrid and obviously not staged. Like, she got popped in these, you know? Okay. I think of, like, if you, they're like a lot of weird angles, and I think that she, I think she didn't know these were going to happen. Okay. And it's just like an interesting dichotomy. She just looked like her regular self. I don't, I don't know.

I'm very confused by why they decided maybe because they were getting hounded so much, or maybe they're engaged and, like, it's going to come out soon. I'm looking at both their IMDB pages, because... What is this real-time investigative work? Well, because my first instinct is, what are they promoting? Yeah, what are they promoting? And it doesn't seem like they're promoting...

I mean, you never know. But... It's true, you don't. It's just a weird development. I wasn't ready for this. And let's just go back to the photos from yesterday where she's wearing the sweats. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

If you're doing your first stage paparazzi photo call, is this the outfit that you choose? As Kyya, our producer pointed out, if this were staged, I would have told her to wear a better outfit. She selected these sweats specifically for being photographed. So this is great. I'm glad you brought this up because I'd love to talk about this more generally. Fashion is in a really, really weird place right now. It's just like in a really...

Have we talked about pajama fashion on this podcast? What we talked about with Chloe. Oh, right. So, listen, all fashion is always geared. towards young people and is supposed to look forward and is supposed to be, you know, innovative. And so, like, old people always look a little stupid wearing really trendy stuff. And I think that some of it is just that, like, Katie Holmes is wearing something that is too young for her and she can't pull it off.

But it is happening so much now. I walk into stores where I used to shop all the time. And I'm getting old. That's fine. Like, I can't wear what I could wear when I was 24. But it's also a really tough time. If you can't pull off the trendy stuff, like you really cannot pull it off right now. There's no middle ground.

Yeah, and you're just going to stay away. You look really dumb. And I kind of think that's what it is. Like, I think that's probably an extremely expensive outfit. Remember the pop-Ratsy photo from, like a week or two ago that I shared with you of Daniel Craig and Rachel Vice out in Brooklyn? And Daniel Craig is wearing just like, really expensive, like, man clothing.

You know, he's wearing a top coat and a very, like, big, lovely scarf that he's tied jauntily and, like, nice jeans and boots. And I think, like, his outfit must cost thousands of dollars. And I think Rachel Weiss has also cost $1,000 of dollars, but she's just wearing, like, hypebees clothing. And Rachel Weiss is literally the most beautiful woman in the world to my eyes. I would leave my husband for Rachel Weiss. I love her, too. And she's just, that's not the look for her. I mean, she looks okay because she's Rachel Weiss and she's so beautiful, but it looks goofy.

It's like, ma'am. It's time to wear some grown-up clothes. I know. Let's get you a new stylist. I've been working really hard on dressing older, so maybe she wants some tips from me. That would be great. I would love to be a part of that, and I'll just sit there like Catherine Hawn and watch Rachel Weiss, and it'll be great. So anyway, that's my diagnosis on this, is, in fact, that she's trying a little.

and I think we all have to be realistic about you can't let the clothes wear you, you know? It's true. And the clothes are wearing Katie Holmes. I think they also tried to look a little matchy-matchy, like similar vibe. Like, same, same, but we're both in casual. We're both in sweats. Yeah. I don't know.

Katie Holmes must be such a cook. I don't even know what else to say. I would love to spend time with her. Wouldn't you just like, I really would like her. I need her to outlive Tom Cruise. I need Penelope Cruz to live out-lived Tom Cruise. I just, I need to know. I was watching an episode Dawson's Creek the other night.

I don't know why. I guess because I have... Because you have a giant Dawson's Creek poster in your office because you like it and because it's important to enjoy the things that you like. There's nothing wrong with that. This is what happened. I got home from our Talk to Thrones show here at The Ringer, which you can watch on Twitter. I were immediately following Game of Thrones on Sunday.

And I just was like a lot of adrenaline. Like, just come home from work. And it was like kind of late on Sunday. And I had a lot of options. I could have watched Billions. I could have watched Killing Eve. I could have caught up on Grey's Anatomy. There was a lot for me to watch, but instead, I went to my DVR.

You need comfort food. Yeah, I went to my DVR, and I was like, you know, I'm not ready for any of this stuff. I need to, like, I would have to pay attention. So then I went to the guide because I still have a cable box. In the last 15 minutes of dirty dancing we're on. And so I watched them. Amazing. And I was like, wow, I love dirty dancing.

I love big dancing numbers. I just love everything about this. I noticed some detail in baby's dress that I'd never seen before. I was just, like, watching with new eyes. And I was like, I'm going to keep this going. What else? What other television? feels like getting underneath a warm blanket.

And then that's Dawson's Creek. And so I watched the episode four to tango from season three. What happens? It's the end of Pacey and Jen trying to have a sexual relationship. Okay. And it's the very beginning of Pacey and Joey, like realizing they have a chemistry. Wow. And it's a foundational episode.

It's one of my favorites. And as I was watching, I thought to myself, huh, I haven't checked out Tony Ortega's Scientology reporting website a while. I need to. Yeah. And it's just like, it's just a cloud over Katie Holmes. Like, what is up with this former Scientologist and what is she doing now? And I've got so many questions.

Yeah. I mean, I would like to know it all. Me too. And I just am dying to know who her stylist is. And if he was, or she was happy with this look or wanted to just stab his eyes out or her eyes out. It's so baffling. I will also say, as an Upper West Side native, this is just a huge look for West 7th and 9th Street. Absolutely huge.

I knew, I had known from other photos of it. That's where she lived. But if you watched the video in the article, you pointed to you today of Jamie Fox FaceTiming with her, you can very clearly see the West 7th Street sign behind him. And I was just like, wow, this is a big time for the Upper West Side. Near the Park or Riverside? I think that she's on 79th and West End as far as I can tell. Okay.

That's great. Yeah. Love the Upper West Side. Perhaps it's mean that I've said that, but it's in the video. It's not my fault. Yeah, it's true. I just, I can't believe this or they're going public. I just can't believe it.

Like, what if this was all a mistake? these photos in the gray sweatsuit are not a mistake. Well, the gray sweatsuit is a mistake. That's true. It's, you know, of a different kind. We'll see. We'll monitor the situation. We're so on top of it.

Another situation we're monitoring is the Royal Baby Situation in England. We are. There's soon to be a baby Sussex. There's some feeling that perhaps Baby Sussex has arrived and has just not been made public yet because Harry and Megan signed like an Instagram like Harry, Megan and baby, like, imprend and baby Sussex, which is like kind of a weird thing to do before your baby is born, but like maybe not. At this point, like, it's pretty real. It's close to being born.

It's quite large. She's on maternity leave. Yeah. The second the baby's born, we're going to make a podcast strategy and talk about it. Well, not the second it's born because we may not know because they announced that they would be kind of taking some lag time before that they made it public in order. They're not doing the thing that Will and Kate have to do where the baby is announced immediately. with like the sign outside Buckingham Palace and that weird town crier guy who I think has absolutely no relation to the actual royal family. He just does that for kicks.

But anyway, and she's not going to do the thing where she stands out in front of the hospital is my understanding. So we, as soon as it's announced, as soon as we have information, we'll make a podcast plan and we'll all be here with you. Yes, we will. In the meantime, Julia has some other royal information that she'd like to share with us. On Saturday, I went to see Diana the musical at the La Jolla playhouse. I'd like to think it's the beginning of my career as a patron of the arts. Okay. You're a patron of a lot of weird arts.

But anyway, including just like weird voice memos on your phone. One day we'll do that, like weird things that Juliet saved on her phone this week. My voice memos are some of my greatest collection of my personal passions. Yes. Anyway, this week's weird arts patronage, it was to Diana the musical. Could you tell us a little bit about who wrote? created DeHanna the musical. Books and lyrics by Joe DePietro.

Music and lyrics by David Bryan, so they did it together. Okay. Directed by Christopher Ashley. It was like workshopped in New York and then like it's like, you know how like there's like workshops for musicals in New York. It's part of the theater scene that I aspire to be a patron of. Sure. And then immediately went to San Diego, La Jolla, which is like basically San Diego.

That's where they found an audience for this musical. Lovely theater at the La Jolla Playhouse. Really enjoyed it, very comfortable. It felt intimate. It was lovely. I bet it's like 400 seats in there or something along those lines. The run has been extended several times. Wow.

Yes. I learned about it from the other Elizabeth Holmes' Instagram. It was my friend Catherine's birthday. And so she wanted to do for her birthday. So we went. Happy birthday, Catherine. I didn't like learn about Diana, but I was like reminded of the things I wanted to Google and research.

Yeah. And like one... Can you ask some of them? Yeah, sure. Like, well, it's sort of like more conceptual. Like, for example, I didn't really really really... realize that, like, we know so much about Diana because she was a source for the book about her. Yeah, so I wanted to ask you about this. You told me, you sent me a picture of Andrew Morton signing autographs at the...

Andrew Morton said he had to get back to London because the Royal Baby was being born this week. So Andrew Morton is one of the tabloid journalists who has been covering the royals for what? It must be like 30, 40 years now. And he famously wrote a book about Diana, which it was revealed after her death. that she was the source for. She sat for many interviews. And the way she did it, just so you know, someone on her staff interviewed her. Like, Andrew Mortonman said questions

to someone on her staff. Yeah. The staffer would interview her. And I think they're just like hours of tape. And then he wrote a book that did not name her at a source, but like everyone knew instantly. And that is kind of what precipitated eventually the divorce. And yes.

And as a result, I also learned this. Like that's why Charles did a lot of press, was like to tell his side of the story. So I didn't really fully understand until seeing a musical. And the second act of the musical was quite good. I feel like I learned a lot. Yeah. That we know so much about them basically because she decided to like tell her story.

Yes. And so that is like interesting. And so Andrew Morton was there doing a book signing, by the way. So this is in retrospect really craven, but at the time I was like 12, so I didn't know. Very soon after she died, he released an edition with just a transcript of the tapes. in it. So you can, and I did, like I bought it at age 12. Like, it's at my mother's house.

You can read it and you can just read everything that she said. And it was like a pretty, you know, it's a rich text. It's definitely her perspective and she's in a certain state and has gone through a lot when she's talking about it. But it's all there on record. It's available. There's also a documentary that I believe is on Netflix right now that uses the audio of that interview. And it's like, it's all our. archival footage and then just uses her basically narrating it.

Yeah. And it's really fascinating. She also, I also like, learned that she did a lot more to kind of, like, provoke Charles than people say about her now that she's died. I mean, I do think that there's a lot of, like, sainthood. I mean, also she did a lot of amazing things. Yes. But there's a lot of, like, sainthood status that comes as a result of, like, a horrific, tragic,

premature death. And so it actually made Charles, like, more sympathetic than he almost, like, ever is in the press, which I thought was interesting. and, like, may be fair. But then I also had, like, a lot of questions about, like, why Camilla ever got married and, like, how that happened, which I then, Google, which I found, like, really fascinating. Yeah. Which basically, like, Charles was, like, emotionally withholding and then went to it into the military. And as a result, Camilla's future brother-in-law and father, like, basically arranged for her to marry Andrew Parker Bowles.

So that's one theory. It's really funny. I was rereading part of this section in the Diana in the Tina Brown book. I need to read that. The other day. Tina Brown's theory is that Camilla actually loved her first husband more than Charles. Oh, interesting. And he was like apparently something of a ladies man.

And apparently Camilla was very into him. And Princess Anne was also. Yeah, she dated him. Yeah. Princess Anne, who I sat next to at Hamilton in London. Yes, exactly. So it's really all coming together for you. And that he was harder to pin down.

So she dated Prince Charles. And then when he had to go, he was like went out to sea for eight months as part of his military career. and then she finally locked down Andrew. Andrew Parker Bowles. APB. Yeah. Yes, that was fascinating.

Yeah. And then the musical is like probably like weirdly kind of graphic about her depression and how she like would cut herself basically. Yeah. And I don't think it's weird to talk about that or like, but it's just like kind of like not in line with the tone of the rest of the musical. It's not really musical fair. Right. But it is in there. So that was like interesting.

And you know, it's just it was fun. It was a silly musical about like a topic I'm very interested in. And it was fun. What was the best musical number? The second act begins with a song called Here Comes James Hewitt. Yeah, I asked you to send me a list of the musical titles. And it's like that is what I immediately focused on. Actually, I have a question for you.

Yeah. In the musical, James Hewitt doesn't hit the scene until like well after Harry's born, but he's been rumored to be Harry's father. Yeah. In your knowledge, chronologically, when is James Hewitt first present in Diana's life? I really do go by the Tina Brown. chronology here because I think that she is like the best source and kind of puts it all together. I do think it's afterwards.

Gotcha. Because I think in the Tina Brown book, there are rumors about Diana and a security personnel. That's who I thought. Yeah. Before James Stewart. I believe that rumor, by the way. I. Yeah.

So I think just chronologically speaking, that's how it adds up. But you never know. Because I think as you learned in this musical, Diana would spit. things to her own. She was like a media manipulator and also didn't always tell the truth. Right. And was definitely, you know, telling her own side of the things. Right. And as publicly significant and hardworking as she was also had problems and was also often difficult. Yeah. Yeah, totally. The James Hewitt number is like introduces him as a character in like a really big way. Like it's like, here comes James Hew and he just like comes in the really big scene.

It really reminded me of how Hamilton introduces Thomas Jefferson and in the beginning of back to, but like, not, no events. I mean, whatever. Not nearly as good or as artfully. But I was like, wow, the Hamilton influence is very clear in a very strange way. And, you know, it was fun. It was silly. Like, I just like, I love musical, so I don't care. Yeah. So I had a good time. That's great. I'm glad. And I need to read the Tina Brown book. I've never read it. I'll learn so much. I will let it to you anytime, as you know, and you can text me questions and anything that you want to discuss. That really goes to anyone who's listening this far and actually wants to read the Tina Brown book, I'll answer any messages that you want to ask about it.

Really, any time. Maybe you should just do an AMA on your personal Instagram feed. Okay. It'll be like three people. This will be like the time that I asked like everyone at the ringer if they understood a Jimmy Buffett reference. And I was like, please DM me if you get this and just got no DMs. Amanda, don't worry.

I get less slack engagement from our colleagues and like anyone else on staff. So it's cool. If you saw the beach bomb and want to talk about the Jimmy Buffett music cues and performance in that, also you can slack me or DM me or whatever. All right, everyone. Thanks for listening. Thanks very much. We will talk to you when there's a baby to talk about.