The Press Box - What Do the ESPN Layoffs Tell Us About ESPN’s Future? Plus: Trump vs. The New York Times, Tom Brady and WWE, and Bryan’s Broadway Notes.

Episode Date: July 21, 2026

Today on The Press Box, Bryan and David start by talking about Bryan's vacation in New York. Then they discuss the layoffs at ESPN (13:02), Trump's battle with The New York Times (59:11), and Tom Brady's newest endeavor (01:04:08). Plus, the Overworked Twitter Joke of the Week! Hosts: Bryan Curtis and David Shoemaker Producers: Isaiah Blakely and Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

David? Yes. I was in our old home of New York City last week. Mm-hmm. A little vacation for old Brian Curtis. It was a very, very strange week to be in New York. First of all, our hotel lobby loaded with fans that were there to see the World Cup final. Mm-hmm.

So you had Argentinian fans saying, Wendya. Mm-hmm. You had Spanish fans saying, Wendya. Mm-hmm. Lots of world cup friends. None of what I learned in Spanish class. Okay, go ahead. There was also in New York a giant security corridor in Midtown,

presumably so Donald Trump could get in and out because he was going to go watch the game and awkwardly present the trophy. I'm going to say, watch isn't you really underselling it. He was a prime contributor to that Spain victory. It's so funny because I've just seen that video of Joe Biden awkwardly appearing at Jill Biden's book event. and not totally understanding that the event was not for him. Yeah. And then same vibes with Donald Trump.

Oh, totally. Sir, you can leave the stage now. Did you hear the German broadcast when they showed him on screen? I didn't. There was a point where it was just like they showed him in the box with set bladder and he was just, the German broadcasts very, from what I could tell, I didn't, him wasn't speaking German, just watching the translation, but very kind of tactfully, but nonchalantly it was just like,

like these two just made for each other. They think it's all about them. It was just like so incredible in the closing moments of the World Cup. Of the World Cup final, I should say. Just really incredible stuff. That's great. I love that you clarified that you were not listening in German. Well, I can only, my name is Shoemaker.

Some assumptions are sometimes made. I don't know. Also weird New York last week. There was a gigantic War of the World style smog cloud hovering over the city. Oh. How gross was that? My favorite were all the people chiming in. It feels like this didn't happen last time there was the Canadian brush fires or whatever, but I feel like there were a lot of people on Twitter saying, like, quoting their elderly relatives saying, this is what Detroit was like in Phil in the Year. Like, this is what Pittsburgh was like in like in 1975. You know,

like really drawing that line of comparison, which I appreciate. I like historical parallels. Mine was, this is what L.A. was like in 2025 or? Exactly. Virtually in a year. Yeah. Because there's always a wildfire that makes the city smell terrible. It is wild. This is wild, no pun intended.

This is the second year that this has happened in the Northeast. And I think it was last year. It might have been the year before. But the second time it's happened with that level of intensity. And there's not a wildfire. I mean, the wildfires in Canada, right? So, like, we're not even seeing wildfires on the news. But there is just suddenly the threat of the smoke of a foreign wildfire come to assault us.

And it's very bizarre. While most of our podcast friends were seeing The Odyssey this weekend, I was on a different pair of three-hour odysies. I went to Broadway, David, to catch up on some shows. The first of which... Multiple shows? Multiple shows. Two shows.

Oh, wow. First of which was Operation Mincemeat at the Golden Theater. Operation Mincemeat dude has become that show that... every one of your parents' friends recommends to you. Like the Jersey Boys of the... Wait, I'm trying to think of what the parallel is here. Certainly that zone, probably like early Lion King on Broadway. Oh, yeah.

Was Avenue Q in that zone for a while? Like, you'll never believe it. It's puppets, but it's really funny. I still feel like I still took my parents to Avenue Q. Is it sort of like, I'm not sure how this is going to go. But, yeah, it got there. When people recommend it that much, you and I just arch our backs a little bit.

Oh, sure. When I saw a piece in the times that Taffy Ackner had seen Operation Mincemeat 13 times because it brought her such comfort, I was like, I think I might be a skip for me. But we had our kids with us and then we were traveling with friends who had their kids with us. And, you know, that's a very delicate operation where you're taking the kids to Broadway. Sure. And you are trying to kind of steer away from. The Lion King or whatever has replaced the Lion King as the go-to family show.

You want to show that mom and dad can like. So Operation Mincemeat it was. Now, if you don't know about Operation Mints Mead, the actual operation, rather than the Broadway musical, was a British plot during World War II. The Brits took a dead body that dressed it up as a British airman. They planted fake invasion plans on the body. and then floated the body toward the Spanish coast

where it apparently fooled Germans who read the fake plans and believed them. This was a huge Ben McIntyre book in 2010. Kind of made Ben McIntyre into a best-selling author, did it not, at least here in the States? Let me tell you something, dude. This show has five actors who are playing members of British intelligence, but then whenever another character is required to walk on stage, they just switch, do a little costume change,

and become that character. Okay. All playing men and women both. It was so fantastic. Wow. Brian Curtis and also Taffy Ackner agree. Two very enthusiastic thumbs up. I'm glad that you liked it.

I got to go check that out. It was good. There was a guy in the show who was named, was Jeff Creedy, and I guess he's the second person who's played this role. It's been on for a while. And he plays this woman. He plays different roles, but most of the show he spends playing this woman named Hester, who works for the British Intelligence Service. It has a big show-stopping number in the first act. And he's playing woman, and again, you know, gender-swapping the theater. Not exactly a new concept. Yeah. I'm watching the show, and I'm just entranced by him.

I'm entranced by this role. And at the end of it, I can't. came out and I was like, he was fantastic. I was like, oh my God, he played a woman for the majority of the show, and I just completely accepted it as a woman. And he was not dressed up in anything. He just put on a pair of granny glasses, essentially. And it was just a transformation. It was amazing. Wow. This is Shades of Patrick Stewart doing a Christmas Carol. If my vague memory of what someone else told me could be trusted. Speaking of something your parents' friends wanted you to go see on Broadway. That was show number one. then our friends departed.

My mom came into New York and we did all the great New York things. We went to Barney Greengrass for brunch. We went to the comedy cellar. We got a drink at Bamelmans. Nice. And then Friday night, David, we saw Death of a Salesman. And as I am settling in there

into my seat in the orchestra section of the Winter Garden Theater, I was thinking, did David and I actually read Death of a Salesman in high school? Or did we just inhale Death of a Salesman? as secondhand literature in high school? You mean, was it assigned, or was it assigned and we pretended to read it? Was it actually assigned? Was it actually a sign?

I feel like death of a salesman might have been a senior year requirement, but I don't, I'm not absolutely sure of that. I'm certain that we watched it, engaged with it somehow, but I don't have, it's not stick, it doesn't stick in my brain the way that some of those high school mandatory reading selections do. Some things are so, ubiquitous that it doesn't really matter if they were a sign or not.

I definitely remember, like, Mr. Templin explaining what an Arthur Loman was. Willie Lohman. I mean, Willie Lohman, sorry, I was conflating Arthur Miller. But the, like, just the, I remember that being one of the first, like, I'm having a metaphor, just shouted at me sort of moments. Am I like, okay, you're trying to explain a thing. I'm not sure if my brain can handle it. Was that the same week that we learned that the green light on Daisy Buchanan's doc might

signify money? or was at a different week of high school. No, that was much before. That was much before. That was at least a year or two earlier. This is actually the sixth Broadway revival of Death of a Salesman. It starred Nathan Lane and Lori Metcalf. Oh, yeah.

And I know Nathan Lane is Broadway royalty, but I was like, I think the cool thing to do is look forward to this to see Lori Metcalf. Sure. So great in everything she does. She's great in this. It turns out Linda Lohman is not much of a role, probably the fourth best role, I think, in the play. When she has big, you know, big lines, big scenes, she's really good.

But Nathan Lane was unbelievable and subtle in a way that I had not quite experienced Nathan Lane. And maybe that's because I've seen him in movies more than I've seen him on the stage. Yeah, I just Google it. I'm looking at pictures of this right now. This looks like David Fincher's Death of a Salesman. The entire thing is like so stark and almost black and white. this industrial style set. It's not a house.

It's just an industrial style garage. And he drives his car onto the set at the beginning of the show and then backs out with the car at the end and the garage door goes up. It's really, really cool. He also has a mustache in it. My mom was in that zone where she wasn't totally sure who Nathan Lane was. And I was like, you know who this is. You've seen him in a lot of stuff. He's like, he doesn't normally have a mustache.

hair is not normally gray but you know who this your mom didn't see the producers there wasn't like an obvious speaking of things your parents friends told you to go see we might have made it there by the time the producers was in like the fourth cast the coolest part of this though so my mom and I are in the we're sitting in the orchestra and at some point before we got there I realized that she and I saw our very first Broadway show in the same theater,

the Winter Garden, which is on Broadway between 50th and 51st. And we saw that show 35 years ago this summer. Ooh! And that show happened to be cats. And I will never forget sitting up there in the balcony and, you know, people who listen to the show might know you and I as, you know, people who enjoy the analog edition of the New York Times they're reading a hard-boiled detective novel.

Let me tell you something. 1991, Brian, was absolutely mesmerized by cats at the Winter Garden. It was the greatest thing I'd ever seen in my life. I've never been to a Broadway show. I'd never seen humanoid cats crawling up the side of the theater. And here we were, 35 years later. So after Death of a Salesman was over, we waited until everybody came down from the mezzanine. the ushers were very nice to let us actually do this.

And then we walked up the stairs and we went to where our seats were for that production of cats because I remembered sitting, you know, it was on the left side of the balcony, right up front because I remember this cat like peeking its head over the balcony and me being like, whoa, things are different here on Broadway.

And we found the seats and we had one of the users taking a picture of us, which I'll put up on Instagram. But that was really cool. I can't believe it was 35 years. years ago. No. That we were sitting in that theater watching cats.

Hearing of the adventures of the Rum Tum Tugger and other, uh, wonderful, wonderful, uh, if that movie hadn't been a total flop, I'm sure rumtum Tugger jokes would have much more of a currency in podcasting in 2026, but you know, alas. It didn't even reach the Mr. Police. For the Elliott Estate, alas. Yeah, right. Didn't reach the Mr. Police level of flop where everyone knows what you're referring to. but alas, those of us who were there in 1991 will always have cats.

All right, coming up on the press box, David, ESPN had layoffs today. We'll go through all the names and ask, what do the layoffs tell us about the future of the worldwide leader? Plus, Donald Trump's wider war on the New York Times and how Tom Brady's wrestling career explains American politics. All that and much more on the press box. A part of the ringer podcast network. Hello, media consumers.

It's Brian Curtis. It's David Schumann. It's producers Isaiah Blakely and John Jones. David, we woke up this morning to the news that the ESPN layoffs had begun or begun again because the Ryan Clark thing kind of got things off on a very, very strange foot yesterday. Yeah, we were way to start things out. Can I ask a general background question before you jump in fully? Because this is what we were most interested to hear your opinion on.

is the ESPN layoffs becoming like an annual holiday or like an event like this as opposed to, you know, like spreading them out when people's contracts are up and whatever else. Is there a benefit to this now for ESPN to sort of be able to deal with all the bad PR in one day? Or is there some other reason why ESPN seems to choose to eventize its layoffs? That's a great question. because if I've been asked to write anything here at the ringer and if you and I have been asked to podcast about anything, it's the many desks of Sports Illustrated and various ESPN layoffs.

And I was looking back at a piece I wrote three years ago on the last big round of ESPN layoffs. And that was the sixth round of layoffs in Bristol inside of a decade. Yeah. So to answer your question, I would say that they've been, much more canny about just quietly letting contracts expire

and not taking this weird PR hit, not eventizing it, as you say. But I think the thing that happens here is they bought the NFL network last year and then that starts a deal got approved in January. And then that starts the clock because you're saying, okay, are we going to employ all these people

as NFL training camp starts here in a number of days? Are we still going to have dual staff? because these layoffs mostly impact behind the scenes people of the NFL network in LA. Yeah. People that you and I could have guessed were in jeopardy as soon as that deal went through. Although you can, I mean, there's sort of like a forward-facing version of this, which is that Kyle Brandt was sitting at the table at Get Up all week.

And during his close, his outro today, joked that when Get Up first started, he was just like, oh, there goes my show. Now he's doing, now he's like doing fill-in work, doing incredible. He was such a natural at that table that we know with this week and doing great stuff. And, you know, it's just like he's the symbol of like, yeah, maybe is this duplicative? Do we really need him around? Well, I guess he's earning his stripes now being on the main show. It's part of what's funny, right?

Because ESPN acquired the NFL network and we're like, what are you actually getting here? You're getting another NFL pregame show that competes with your pregame show. You're getting another draft broadcast. You're getting even more NFL insiders. But then there are some obvious ones like, Kyle Brandt's great. Acquiring Kyle Brandt, that's easy, right? You can fit him in, you know, on any show you want to.

Acquiring Rich Eisen. Who essentially has become the totem of old sports center at ESPN. Yeah, and just sort of the, like the streaming TV cleanup hitter too. Like he pops in when McAfee's not on and everything. And it's just he has such a, you know, he has a good ending's eating vibe. Yeah, and I always think with ESPN, especially with all the layoffs, they have to have some kind of connection to the past. Because so many previous connections have walked out the door. That's true.

Dan Patrick, Keith Olderman, Chris Berman's there, sort of. But you have to have somebody on that air that people who have been watching ESPN since the 90s can go, oh, yeah. That's old ESPN. So many of these dudes have radio shows, but it would be funny just to have them all in one room. Like, what's the opposite of a bullpen? Like, where do you go after you pitch? It just have all of the old dudes, all, and ladies, everyone that sort of been put out to pasture by Sports Center should just be in one room doing a live stream podcast radio show every day. That would actually be pretty good.

That would be great. Like, who wouldn't want to watch that? So after you pitch, so in the old days, you put on a satin jacket, you buttoned it up, you sat in the dugout and maybe you had a cigarette? Yeah. Is that the answer to that question? It's a long title for my new fledgling podcast, but we'll work on it. We'll workshop it a little bit. I mean, Oberman could be wearing the leather jacket he wore when ESPN2 started to the satin

jacket. I kind of like that kind of smoking lounge. Yeah, the smoking lounge is great. And then, you know, no one would be complaining if they were actually smoking either, the dignified folks of their age. But anyway, yeah, so what were we even talking about? Well, we were just talking about why this is all. happening on one day.

Yes. As opposed to being parceled out. And by the way, I would just say that I would, if I had to make a prediction, I would guess that there will be some parceling out too. It's not an either or situation. Mm-hmm. But some of this. Yeah, there always is.

There's always somebody trailing. There's always a few names. There's, you know, I'm sure it helps like I said, like I was insinuated from a PR perspective to have to deal with them at one time. The last thing you want is somebody trailing that then absorbs all of the online angst into their one person, right? that happened to WWE with this guy, Our Truth, a couple years last year.

For some reason, he was just, he announced his own that he was being released, so it was out of cycle, and he was the only person in that moment, so the fans all rallied behind him and went nuts, right? But on the days where they released 30 people, it's hard to muster up angst for just one person, you know, the energy for just one name.

So no one becomes like a totem, if you do it this way. Some of this was revealed by just our sort of, preordained by the fact that ESPN bought the NFL network. The other thing, and I think you and I talked about this offline, was ESPN, if you watch the sportscaster waiver wire, had the busiest month of transactions, I can remember in that network's history right before this. Of hiring or resigning sports, like anchors and sportscasters?

Yes. Adam Schaefter got a new deal. Don Van Natta got a new deal. Play-by-play man, Dave Pash. The Golics came back. Mike Garifolo apparently got a new deal. Tim Tebow just got announced yesterday, right under the wire.

And then on the other side of the ledger, Linda Cohn said goodbye, a couple of execs announced they were retiring. It all felt like books were being put in order. Sure. Don Van Nata is just like the, like, re-upping your NCAA title winning head coach who's like 90 years to like some sort of a consulting deal.

It's just a big approval. No matter how many people you disagree with, you have to agree with the Don Van Nata, right? So he kind of gives cover to everybody else. It's true. I mean, that's the thing. It's like whenever they gut the journalism part of ESPN, there's always like, well, Don Van Natt is still there.

Seth Wickersham still there. They're still breaking stories. Yeah. He doesn't seem like he's going to be rolled by Roger Goodell. And also, I'm just so glad they're there because it just feels like ESPN needs the league business beat. If you are going to be in business with the NFL, and they are in business with the NFL.

This is a Super Bowl year for ESPN, the first in their history. Man, you better have those big investigative stories coming down the pike. To bring it around a full circle. That's what the whole acquiring the NFL network thing. I mean, acquiring the NFL network makes much more sense in terms of this just sort of three-card Monty that the NFL and ESPN have had going on. Well, that's not even the right. Keep going.

I like that, though. The right analogy is something I can't say without getting bleeped. But it's, but they just seem to do, there just seems to be a lot of like, you know, like back pocket dealing that goes on between those two. And we need to make the sale. You're there the logical place. Okay, let's take that over. And just the whole relationship dating back to the rights fees and Monday night football and all that kind of stuff. It's a much more, it's a much more, you know, it's not exactly like, hey, Brian, let me sell you my truck for $1, you know, just to make it legal.

But it's, it's very cozy. The deal making is, yeah. I mean, with ESPN giving an ownership stake to the NFL, I mean, that's as cozy as it gets, right? All right, let's go through some of the names of people whose layoff or probable layoff, I guess some of this is still just a matter of timing was were announced today. Number one, Ryan Clark. Ryan Clark's been with ESPN since 2015, been on NFL Live, Monday Night Countdown.

I think his apex mount at ESPN was the night three years ago when the bills, Damar Hamelin went to cardiac arrest on Monday night football. And Ryan Clark and Scott Van Pelt were in studio. Scott Van Pelt is so good at the emotional parts of the job. Yeah. It's good at the informational parts of the job too, but he's really good at the emotional parts and just understanding what to do in that moment. And Ryan Clark was so good that night.

And I think anybody that watched that, and I was one of those people, thought in that moment, this guy's going to be a huge star who's going to have a very, very long career at this network. That was three years ago. Yeah.

What happens in the intervening years? 2024, his deal was up at ESPN, didn't have an extension, and he put out a video three days after the Super Bowl. Do you remember this? Yes. Where he was talking about how hard he'd worked

how his last deal he thought was a little low and he said somebody's got to pay the piper. Yeah. And announced that he wanted to presumably make more money but work a little less in his future deal. I went back and rewatch that video today. And it's like, you know, on the one hand, I think if a player had tweeted something like that out

about proving themselves, betting on themselves, getting a new contract from their team, we would just be like, okay. Mm-hmm. I'm not sure that went over great inside. ESPN? No, it was an interesting tactic. It was an interesting tactic. Because I do think that there was a deliberate, what if I treated this job like an NBA player treats there as sort of, you know, thought process behind it, which is not a bad idea at all. But in terms of the

public reception to it, I mean, people still complain about NBA players saying stuff like this. So the idea that like breaking down that barrier in sports media wouldn't have come with some backlash would obviously be short-sighted. I think he did what he said out to do. in that instance. For all the people that want to be the next Stephen A. Smith, there's a way that you can look at his career arc and take absolutely every wrong lesson on how to get to where he is.

You know what I mean? And to breach the top, you've got to risk just like getting let go sometimes. You know, it's an unlikely road. I agree. I also think we've been in this period over the last couple of years where everyone at ESPN is trying to figure out

how much agency they actually have? Yes. Or how little agency they have? Well, it's a great question because you look at Pat McAfee, and it's like he walks in the door with all the agency in the world, and he is understood by his level of agency. And we know there are some people who, even absent this sort of philosophical conversation,

we're immediately saying, wait, if Pat's going to be able to get away with this stuff, like, what can I do? You know, but from an agency point of view, you're like, is the only way to get ahead to do, to just, you know, to exert agency? Like, is that what they're asking for us now?

Because if you ask them, they'll say, no, but what do they really want? You know, they want you to grab the brass ring? Is that what they're thinking? Well, here's the way that it seems like you can grab it. But it's really impossible because of the way they've said. I mean, you disagree with me, please, if you don't agree. But it seems like they've set up this world where, like, you earn your spot, you earn your stripes at the highest levels of ESPN by expressing agency elsewhere.

And then we bring you in with, like, like a slightly streamlined version of agency, you know, where like there's guardrails that, I mean, there was some of this when Rogan signed was Spotify, with Joe Rogan time was Spotify, right? Where it's like, we're not, we're exactly the same show we used to be. And then an episode will disappear. People get outraged. It's just like, yeah, this is probably

the guardrails that were discussed ahead of time, you know? Like, no one should be too too shocked. And then all these people have big lives outside of ESPN2, which complicates the whole idea of agency. I was going to say about Clark, and this is something that I don't know if I brought up on the show before, but I've just sort of, like absentmindedly wondered for a while. Every time I've seen Ryan Clark in real life

over the past several years, it's been behind a pivot logo. Right? Like he's constantly wearing the pivot shirt. It's like when he traveled. I know he's done some events that I've been at and stuff. Like he's doing the pivot podcast, you know, which is not shocking, but it goes to the,

I don't, not even problematic, but it just goes to what you're saying. Like there's people with other jobs and it's really, it's sometimes difficult to know where the other job ends and the ESPN1 begins. I completely agree. And you know,

when I saw his, salary printed today. By the way, if you ever want to know how much your favorite ESPN personalities make, wait until they leave the network because their salary will inevitably be printed at that time. Because that's the reason

that people are slandering them saying this is why they're gone? Well, it's weird how it flips the narrative, doesn't it? It's like, oh man, that sucks to get real. Oh, he was making $2 million. Oh, well, forget him. He was overpaid. But without being a management stooge, when I saw

that number, I was like, wait a second, it's $2 million for Ryan Clark and you don't get the podcast. Yeah. Like you're paying Ryan Clark and he does a lot there. I'm not, and I'm all for Ryan Clark going and getting money. This is not me sticking up for Mr. Pataro and Mr. Magnus and their accountants. I don't care. It doesn't matter to me. But I was like, if I wanted Ryan Clark and I was told by Clark himself that there was this huge

part of his personality that could only be captured in a podcast like that, like parts of it that just didn't work on a hit on Get Up or a hit on NFL Live. I'd be like, I want that too. Listen, you're making perfect sense. All of your sports agent friends who were listening to this podcast are like slamming it, slamming their iPhones down the table telling you to shut up right now because this is, they don't want to give away the most straightforward part of the negotiation. It's a really weird point in, I mean, in contract negotiations,

a point in history and bought that in these negotiations because it's simultaneously, we're coming out of the era where you could just get those cut, get podcast rights cut out of contracts by asking. No negotiation. You know, the biggest name at ESPN can be like, yeah, or the smallest name,

depending on if we're talking about inevitability versus negotiating power, regardless, anybody's agent can say, hey, we're just going to do our own podcast, so can we have those rights and they'd say yes. So you have these people constantly coming in that have it carved out in their existing deals and expect that. At the same time, companies like ESPN are finally,

finally like getting into the creative podcast field of like trying to actually launch properties and figuring out how to monetize that. And what we've seen is the monetization doesn't happen in a parallel fashion to TV or anything else. And so a lot of big companies end up throwing up their hands too quickly and whatever else. But all this is to say, yeah, you should want the, if you're ESPN, you should want the podcast. Agents at the moment have a whole lot of power to say, hey, you didn't want it last time. I'm not going to throw it in for free. You know, I'm not going to throw it in for, I mean, this could, and you can almost honest, you can pretty honestly say, yeah, the podcast, you can have the podcast rights literally double the number that we were

talking about, you know, and that's, it could be super meaningful. Because they can make that much money outside of ESPN, but does ESPN have the guts to say that they can make you that much money inside of ESPN? You know, it's, that's, that's tough. Especially ESPN, which has had such a weird relationship to podcasts. But, yeah, you have to have a lot. I mean, listen, it's, it's almost impossible. Like, their model has to be the Maccafee model at this point. You have to almost acquire something so big that ESPN would be idiotic to cancel it. And that's the only way.

This is your work. Your work is the podcast. And if you do other stuff like McAfee does a game day, great. But we want the pot. Hey, and honestly, then this is, no one wants to hear this part in negotiation. What is helpful is not ESPN's ownership, not perpetual ownership. You kind of want to invest in a podcast knowing that even if Brian gets fired, Brian will have the same podcast with the same name and the same feed, whatever happens next.

That's part of the investment that ESPN is actually building, right? You have to trust them. So you've got to give people a lot of latitude. And that's their job, like you said. To go back to your original point, I just think I did see more of Ryan Clark on the pivot than I did on ESPN. And maybe that's because you and I are not watching linear TV like we used to. But just in terms, let's just say in terms of pure scrolling, where did you see Ryan Clark talking? it was like him interviewing Nick Saban, you know, with his co-host.

I was like, this is great. This is a really cool story, right? Or him telling stories and all that comes to. Oh, no, absolutely, yeah. I mean, that in the RG3 feud, which we can at least name without talking about anymore. So those were a couple of moments in the Brian Clark story. Then there was another one, week one of the last NFL season.

He was on Get Up talking about the Cowboys Eagles opener. Oh. And his co-panelist, Peter Schrager, made a point about CD, lamb. I just love when we go back and actually just talk about in the most deathless way, what were they talking about on GetUp one year ago? They were talking about CD Lamb. Schrager was making a point about CD Lamb and then Ryan Clark stepped in. The thing is this though, and we shouldn't do this on TV. And so I apologize if people think this is rude. That's the non-player. Oh, stop. That's, no, that, C.D. Lam is,

Let me tell you why. I'm not saying. I'm not looking at fantasy football. Ryan, I'm not, don't belittle me like that. I could come in and say as three X players are saying one thing and give an alternative perspective that maybe CD Lamb did play well. What I need for you to do, what I need for you to do is not get mad and let me finish for one. Okay, go on.

It wasn't about you. It was going to be about me. Okay. There's so much there, starting with the preamble of we should not be doing this on TV. Yeah. Always preambles out, right? When you're doing, when you're going to say, I mean, if the point is having to take, have the take. I probably shouldn't say this, but.

This is what we say on podcast, but this is TV, is different. TV, you just got to get it out there. Steal away. And then Schrager, I mean, it's almost like Schrager being too prepared. Trigger, it's been probably his whole career either hearing that or expecting it. And, you know, he's just ready to go. Don't demean me. Don't belittle me like that.

It's the right response. I think most people just sort of cow in the face of that. and they take it. And it really did sound like Ryan Clark was not going to make a super offensive point. I believe him when he says it was actually about him, but it becomes an argument about an argument at that point, and who cares.

And I was watching that live, and it was uncomfortable, and I thought both men that kind of handled it well, but again, we didn't really get to the point, and you kind of came off with a bad taste in your mouth, and I do think that ends up being something that sticks with Ryan Clark. Well, that's one, I think the thing about an argument like that, as you're right, it really could only work on a podcast or some other format.

But when I'm hearing that, I'm like, who cares what you think about CD Lamb right now? Can we just have this conversation? Yeah. Can we just stop and you can explain why you don't think Peter Schrager, your co-employee of ESPN, your co-panelist on GetUp, has the right to have this football take? Because that's interesting to me. I mean, it's, as an opinion, it's something else. because you're essentially saying, hey, you don't have the right to talk about this stuff. Yeah.

Or your opinion isn't as valid as mine is because I played football. Which, again, I think a lot of ex-athletes probably think that. But to say that kind of just, you know, slaps your co-host in the face. Yeah. Peter Schrager, we should also know it was new at ESPN at that point. So I'm sure he was feeling vibes. When he sat down on that set up like, hmm, I'm the new guy here. How's this going to go?

And then that's how it went. But I'm like, that's actually an argument that's about something. The argument they're having about CD Lamb is about nothing. That's how television works. And tomorrow you'll have another argument about nothing and forget that argument number one happened. But it's like, maybe it's just me as a media podcast, but I'm like, I want to hear the rest of that argument. That's fascinating. I was stumbling around the house this morning, just like dead tired.

You couldn't sleep at all last night. And all I squinted in my eyes, it must have been for, I think it was the beginning of first take and not get up. But they were covering that Jerry Jones. the Dallas Cowboys is going to get out of the second round of the playoffs. And I was just, I just stood there staring at the TV. Like, what month did I wake up in? What is, what's going on right now? It's just arguments literally about nothing.

If the Cowboys are involved, I guess that's a little something. But, you know. Yeah. And what Ryan Clark did, besides insult his coworker, was to make that show seem like it was personal and meaningful. Yeah. Instead of silly and disposable. It's a funny way, interesting way to look at it.

in terms of Cam Newton, too, like, how do we define some of these roles at ESPN? Especially when you get into the, when you get into the first take verse, that it's just sort of like, to what degree is your job being a foil for Stephen A. Smith? And to what degree is your job being a co-holder, a partner of Stephen A. Smith? And just in a more broad sense, to what degree is your job becoming a character or a caricature, you know, just to sort of be memorable? As, again, I'm talking about taking bad lessons from Stephen A. Smith. rise before you could certain there are certainly people out there that would say

Stephen A. Smith just became a pro wrestler and that's how he got famous. You know, he just like just made himself ridiculous. But I don't think that's the right lesson, but there's certainly those that would take it. You know, so there's just so much, so much in the, that Cam Newton, Cam Newton is so interesting to me because he's 100% himself. And yet, down to the hats. Well, that's just it. It's like, I don't know, I thought that the hats, I love the hats or whatever. But like, there's some point where you're making a very deliberate decision to be yourself on national television in a way that will, you know, surprise some people.

You know, and that's, and I, and it's so, he's, he's such an intriguing character. Like, there's a piece of him, of both of these people that seems like, low-key, are you either trying to get tired or fired, or are you conducting yourself? in your outside of ESPN life in a way as to make it look really like you're really cool if you get, like you're fine if they fire you? Like you don't need them anyway. Is that part of the projection?

Like what is the Cam Newton persona? And do you think he was trying to, do you think he was, I think he knew this might be coming? I don't know. It kind of surprised me because I thought he would be protected by Stephen A.

Mm-hmm. If nothing else. that Stephen A would have an ability to say, these are the people I want to do first take with me, especially that important, you know, Monday post-NFL first take. Like that's the one, that's the straw that stirs a drink.

That's the one where everybody's coming to, want to hear what happened in the NFL. And, you know, I don't know. So I was a little surprised by that. To your question about Cam, it's like, in all these guys, and I think we probably said the same thing about Ryan Clark, though, to different degrees.

ESPN is a smaller part of these people's lives than it has ever been at any point in history. Yes. Because of their other gigs. Because their media life is bigger than ESPN and ESPN is essentially renting some of their time. Yeah. You know, that would just, that, by the way, would have just been completely unthinkable in old ESPN and old television generally. That you would be doing other stuff. The interesting thing, I think the bigger question, which is one that they probably answer,

or with PowerPoint presentations when they try to hide when they're recording talent is what to what degree you need ESPN like Cam Newton is certainly in a better position now than he was two years ago but what percentage of your empire needs constant reinvigoration

from an ESPN type platform and to what degree are you just no longer reaping at what moment are you no longer reaping any tangible benefit because Cam's going to be fine. But is, but is Cam going to be the next, you know, is he going to have the next club, Shea, or whatever, where it just seems to actually have some momentum to perpetuate on,

you know, to continue on its own beyond the first six months? And obviously, the goal is to settle into something bigger, some, you know, steadier profitability. An empire. An empire. But not everybody can have an, well, it is. Everybody can have a little empire. But you ask the right question. It's like, at what point does it just not matter anymore? that you're not on ESPN after NFL games. Like, I think McAfee gained substantially by joining up with ESPN, despite it seeming like he was probably at his peak when he signed.

I think he is so far gained substantially. And if he decided to leave again in a year, I think he would, I think you'd be able to make the case that he earned everything he could there. You got everything he could out of it. And obviously, sitting on the college game day set is it not a renewable resource, like you don't get to go back?

But maybe you get to go back because you're just fucking Pat McAfee at this point. Maybe you do. But so you think in McAvey's case, he sucked whatever ESPN gave him? Except for being physically present, doing the show live from places that's, it's irreplaceable for the most part. Although Pat McAvey could probably call any, you know, university and say, I want to do my podcast, like, on top of the roof of the dean's office. And they would say yes. But except for being live on ESPN programming, he has gotten everything he can out of that.

Now, at what point is it even necessary? I mean, even helpful to be on live ESPN? programming for someone like him. Who knows? Is that why ESPN's going to pay him $60 million plus to resign? Yeah. Because he doesn't need... Because they know that?

Yeah. All right. So we got Ryan Clark. We got Cam Newton. Carl Ravich was another name on the list today. Crazy. What a weird moment this was. Andrew Marchand

called him this morning, Tuesday morning, and told Ravich that he'd been laid off. Ravich had not heard that yet. and according to at least one person I talked to, Ravich is not the only person who found this out from a reporter or from a media report today. Yeah.

So I'm not sure there's a way to lay people off, but this ain't it. Yeah. We didn't mention that the, you know, the Ryan Clark News was broken. I don't even know the exact. Let's talk about that right now. I don't know the exact sequence of events,

but it seems like Bobby Barack of out, of outkick, what was formerly? No, it's still outkick. He's still there. He's still there. He's still there. It's just a Clay Travis-less outkick. Okay.

But a lot of the, I mean, not that it matters, but the editorial team got like promotions within Fox. So they're like Fox News contributor slash Outkick editor. And it doesn't matter. But apparently he called ESPN while Ryan Clark was on the air for NFL Live or whatever to say, is it true that he is getting laid off? I'm going to go live with the story. Basically give them a chance to comment.

This was Bobby's testimony. Yeah, according to Bobby. And ESPN kind of said, hold on that, we'll get back to you. Yanked Ryan Clark off the air and then leaked the story to the athletic so that Outkick wouldn't get the exclusive. Yeah. The last part is what Bobby said. Yes. That his scoop somehow got taken away from him.

I think... Well, prior to that, actually, Clay Travis seemed to congratulate Bobby on the scoop without realizing that it wasn't. It wasn't that he had been scooped in his scoop. So there was some confusion here about even internally about what's going on. But yes, that's what Bobby said. He said that he had the story and that ESPN, you know, Rochiam Vodem. And just for my own reporting today, the part of it that I believe is true is that ESPN had gotten calls, or excuse me, had gotten at least one inquiry. I don't know if it was just Burricks inquiry.

Yeah. And then they then say, okay, we don't want Ryan Clark to get a text about this or read this on Twitter. We want to be able to tell him this personally, right? They're planning on telling him today. Yeah. So then somebody at ESPN calls him, your gets on the phone with him during a commercial break of NFL live. And then there's like, hey, do you want to keep doing the show? and he says no, or they mutually say no, and then that's it.

That's my understanding. So I think that part is all true. That part is all true. That's true. You can find yourself in that position, right? I think that's, I think the rational human being response is like, how do you even get yourself in that situation? If you're Ryan Clark? No, no.

If you're ESPN, why is Ryan Clark on the air hours before you're going to let him go? That's a great question. And by the way, just that... I mean, it's probably the, it's probably, you know, the left hand or the right hand. You know, like, they're not always in communication. in different departments or whatever, but still, hell, they might have invited him to the campus to fire him, and the producers were like, I had no idea.

It was just like, oh, look, Ryan Clark's in town? I think he was remote, by the way, just a bipartisan. Oh, okay. Because they did post that clip of him after the show went off the air. By the way, can I make a totally unsolicited commentary on ESPN right now? Please. One of the problems they have with a lot of the names we've been mentioned is that there's still very logically from a TV production standpoint,

a premium being placed on being live in studio for these big ESPN shows. But so more often than not, what you get is someone like Cam Newton rolls in, and it's like, yeah, Cam Newton and Stephen A. Smith, that's what you should be thinking. But what you're getting is Cam Newton doing a bit on get up and then doing first take and then popping up on NFL live later. And if you're like me, if you're like a passive ESPN viewer, I don't put Cam Newton and first take together. To me, it's just like vaguely Cam Newton Day on ESPN.

and then, you know, it's somebody else's tomorrow. This is what they used to call the car wash. Yeah, it is. It's the car wash, but it's like, in a personality-driven era, are you sort of better off siloing people, giving them a little bit more, giving the shows the personality, as opposed to just doing personality-driven block,

like day-long blocks on ESPN? I don't know. Maybe not. Maybe they know exactly what they're doing. I agree with you in principle, but I've been trying to get this idea through at the ringer, so that Taylor Sheridan does Bill's show and then he comes and does the press box. Because we have nothing.

Well, all we could do is benefit from such a plan here at the ringer. Taylor Sheridan, graduate of our high school, by the way. He's got like seven minutes. Wait, he went to Paschal? He went to Paso. Do you think he read Death of a Salesman of Pascoal? Is that how he learned to be a dramatist?

Do you think he has made, do you think there have been more jokes made about him or you being on the Pascoal Wall of Fame? During the course of your lifetime? We all belong there, damn it. One of these days, we'll be there. Back to Carl Ravich. Carl Ravich has been with the ESP.

Carl Ravich feels like so unnecessary. Like, how much money could they possibly saved by letting Girl Ravich go in the middle of a contract? You're saying the layoff feels unnecessary. Mr. Ravich himself doesn't feel unnecessary. No, why are we? I cannot believe we're talking about Carl Ravich today. Were you supposed to be like having big takes on TV personalities?

You know, like it's crazy. Well, here's what I would. say about Carl Ravich, and I don't root for anybody to be laid off, but the Carl Ravich, the ESPN that Carl Ravich flourished in just doesn't exist anymore. No, of course not. I mean, he was a star of baseball tonight. He's been with ESPN since 1993. So we're talking about the Dan and Keith, you know, Stu Scott, Rich Eisen era. He did Sunday night baseball play by play, which was not really a natural fit for him. And then ESPN got out of the Sunday night baseball business.

But when I think of him, I think it's similar to Linda Cohn. ESPN used to be a network of point guards. People that ran the show that set up the analysts. ESPN went from a network of point guards to a network of stretch fours. People who opinionate, like they are the stars of the network. and if you're going to get a host, you're going to get somebody who's like, Maurice Davis,

who's like, I know everything about college football. Trust me. Everything. I think Carl Ravich is probably fairly closer to that model than closer to just like generic sports center host who doesn't know any, who's just like,

here's another highlight, kids. But ESPN and baseball is less of a thing than it ever has been. Yeah. And I just don't, I just don't think that network exists anymore. I mean, the Sports Center that I watch, I feel like they actually go, they push, they really push it like in the margins during the outroes, during the weird points. It's just, it's like they're, they're, you know, stat heads. Like every anecdote that you hear a Sports Center anchor says now is like proving that they're actually smarter than you.

They're not just, they're not just point guards, you know, like you said. It's funny because the old ESP, old sports center, if you go back and watch, there was a lot of do you know and there was a lot of show off. Yeah. I have read history. Remember those old reeds that they would do before? In 18, you know, the 1897 Cleveland Spiders, da, da, da, dot, dot, dot, dot, and would have this kind of learned lead-in. But I don't know if ESPN's changed. They stick out more now, but you're right.

They definitely stick out in a weird way. That's Carl Ravage. Tom Pelliserra was on the list. Yeah. I got to say his tier of NFL insiderdom is always a little foggy for me. Mm-hmm. It's Jeff Darlington. it's Tom Pelliserro

It's Mike Garifalo Were you doing the insider ranking That tier of insiderdom Oh okay In no particular order I think Diana Rossini was probably On that tier of insiderdom Once upon a time

Yeah Pelliserro covered the Vikings and Packers locally Went to USA Today From there to the NFL network Where he had been since 2017 And again if you talk about How does ESPN and the merge with the NFL network? work. At some point, you've got Schaefter as an NFL insider.

They decided to re-sign rap sheet in Rappaport and fuse the two lead insiders together. You've still got Garifolo. You've still got other people. So I guess the thinking was, is there room here for Tom Pelliserro? Or can we save money here? And then Pelliserro, by the way, since we know insiders are always in such. you know, amazing demand, can Pelliserra go off

and sign with the athletic? Can he sign with CBS? Ryan Glaspegel had a whole list of places that need NFL insiders at the moment. Sure. So there's that. Well, it's funny because you come inside ESPN and you're sort of subsumed into the machine.

Obviously, they're very good about attribution when it comes to scoops and everything else, but it's hard to get a lot of play when Schefter is there looming over you, you know, and you could go somewhere. I mean, going somewhere else is, It's like a cliche, but that's the best opportunity you're ever going to have at ESPN is because you've made yourself irreplaceable somewhere else, you know, and come back.

Because it's just, it's, it really is an opportunity. They're people who need insiders, you know, and ESPN will hire them up, but there's only so many people that can really get the spotlight. A few more names, SportsCenter, David Lloyd, who've been with ESPN since 1997. That shocked me. Yes. Bart Scott, who does radio for the ESPN affiliate in New York.

Stefani Abel, who's an injury expert. She'd been with ESPN since 2007. And Charles Davis, who most of us know from CBS, he is the lead college football announcer there and did NFL games for years. He did some stuff for the NFL network, so he was also laid off. We hit most of the notes, I think, about what this says about the future of ESPN. i will just say can i go back to my first note please like how much money did this save them what is the what is what is the what is the what is the what is the objectives here millions of

dollars yeah jol said the jolt guess at a number in the chat that i won't repeat but under ten million dollars like i don't like what is the i think that's a pretty fair guess but what is the ryan clark was it was the highest paid of these people i assume sure but so why again why are we doing this in one day. Like, what is the, like, why not just let the contracts run out at that amount of money? It's a good question. I mean, like I said, I think the NFL stuff makes a little bit of sense because you just have to make decisions right now. You have to make editorial decisions and you have to make personnel decisions because the NFL season, at least the season as we know it is about to start. So make those decisions now. For why Carl Ravits today, I don't know.

I don't know the answer to that. It just seems so bizarre. I don't know the answer. I don't know the answer. I don't know the answer to that. But I could say, as opposed to every other cycle, and maybe it was Ryan Clark specifically and a little bit of Cam Newton that tripped this stuff off. But if I were a decision maker at ESPN, I would not just from a moral perspective,

but get the hell away from this eventizing firing point of view. I know it's not deliberate, necessarily, whatever. But now ESPN layouts have been targeted and politicized, and it becomes this much bigger, a more ridiculous issue than it needs to be. So, well, from an ESPN perspective, I think they would be really smart to get away from people scoring political points

on the backs of their unnecessary layoffs. A couple of other notes here. In terms of surprises, I'd say the one thing that was that kind of just got my attention was, if you listen to people at ESPN talking about Jimmy Petaro's vision, it's always been about, number one, the app,

which is now a thing. And number two, the Super Bowl, this coming Super Bowl, which is, again, the first Super Bowl on ESPN's air. Ryan Clark was going to be a big part of that Super Bowl team. So him being gone is a surprise in that sense because they have worked so hard on getting that team just what they wanted. Putting Greenie on the pregame show on Sundays, SVP on the Monday pregame show, you know, Joe and Troy, we got a new director in the truck. Like, that has been Laura Rutledge on the sidelines. I mean, that has all the NFL live crew. They have just worked and worked and worked on getting that together.

So to take a member away right before the season starts, a little bit of a surprise. Yeah. We talked about talent leverage. Let's see the last thing I wanted to say to you. So three years ago, when I was last writing about ESPN layouts, I decided to make a list of all the people I could think of who had walked out of ESPN over the last decade and change.

who had been who had left of their own accord or just people who had been left or fired who left or had been fired left for various reasons fired fired laid off got a better job yeah yeah follow their muse let me just give you the names on this list because this is an amazing list okay bill simmons jemelle hill dan lebitard in his gang yeah skip balas Michael smith keith oberman Ryan russman rassimell Colin Coward, Carrie Champion, Kenny Maine, Trey Wingo, Bomani Jones, Pablo Torre, don't know what he's been up to lately, Maria Taylor, Wesley Morris, Matt Berry, Mark Stein, Ethan Strauss, Jason Stark, Dan O'Neill, Danny Connell, Trent Dilfer, Kevin Van Valkenberg, Jane McManus, Tom Rinaldi, Chris Felica, Howie Schwab, RIP, Chad Ford, Nate Silver. Can I continue for a second? Mike Tariko, El Duncan, Max Kellerman, Rachel Nichols,

Tom Rinaldi, Tony Riali, June Lee, and David Pollock. And by the way, that does not count Ringer podcast stars like Sean Fennessey, who used to work at ESPN. Wow. Chris Ryan, who used to work at ESPN. Chris, yes. Sean, back in those days, not much of a podcast star. you said that not me

nothing but respect it's not on my he's not on my he's not on my my my ladder anymore so I can just I'm free to say I'm unshackled I can say whatever I want oh dear

yeah it's pretty crazy it's even crazy at its bare minimum like I know that these are people who like Bill has made a lot of money since leaving ESPN so you know so is so is um levit I mean but like imagine if they just

had a, if ESPN just had a rubber room where they're just like, when it comes to the end with Simmons, Lebitard, all these people that have gone, I mean, imagine if they had just been like, we like, just go over there and podcast and you figure out the business model. Like, ESPN would be the most powerful media company would be twice as powerful if they just had kept those guys around. Just like, like put them out in, like it's literally, put them in a warehouse. Like, do podcasts. You can have freaking 33% of the ad revenue. Just figure it out, you know? And they would be the empire, you know, and the most shocking thing about the list of names you read is how many of them are parts of my daily media consumption. I expected it to be a lot more of,

oh yeah, whatever happened to that person, you know, there's still, everybody's still around. And, you know, there's certainly an element of like, how much can you get from ESPN that we talked about before? And also, how much harder are you trying now that you're outside of ESPN and you're fighting against it, there's a lot of different factors at play. But yeah, I mean, it's, it's, the lesson probably is not for ESPN just to never fire anybody. But if you want to be a part of the solution, you can do that or you can do what you're doing now, which is let other people figure it out and then you hire them back in five years. That's fine business model too, but it's just not very exciting. Just a clarification here is the rubber room for ex-ESPN employees different

than the smoking lounge for exesbN employees. No, I'm doing, this is like my, when like my kid is like, look, dad, I drew a mansion and like every room has a really specific purpose, you know, this is where the ghosts live. But, but yeah. I just want to make sure I get that for the org chart here. No, but it's just like, how crazy is this?

It's just like they let, like the number of names that they let go just strictly in a mostly podcast space, which they weren't acting, they weren't having any success at figuring out on the road. like you could have literally just said you never have to talk to anyone ESPN again, just keep making podcasts. Yeah. Do you want a podcast? And ESPN would be a vastly more

profitable company than they are right now. You certainly have a lot more variety, no? I mean, you'd have a lot of like a bunch of successful podcasts. Yeah, and they'd be making, and they'd be earning the money. That's the crazy thing. And like all those names that's a list, ESPN still

has a ton of people. Just look at people covering the NFL. I know. I mean, it's an ungodly number of people. Go and Troy. The Goli. Or the Golix back now? The Golix are back. They were on my initial list, and I had to...

He had to take them off. I had to take them off. Was the junior Golic? He was on an ESPN salary prior to that? The junior Golic. He was a radio host, so... Yeah, he was... Oh, yeah, because, yeah, they were already doing that.

I was the timeline of Mike and Mike breaking up. He had a different radio show. Yeah. Yeah, anyway. All right, coming up in 30 seconds, David. Tom Brady is toying with WWE. and people are very angry. But first, let's do the overworked Twitter joke of the week

where we celebrate a gag that was so obvious that all of media Twitter made it at exactly the same time, send your nominees at the Press Box Pod where they're always gratefully received. Before the World Cup final, David, we had the third place game. My God, how many explainers did we get about that, about how there used to be a third place game in the NFL, et cetera, et cetera. It was France versus England.

France was down 4-0 at halftime. and let me give you a few of the jokes that were made in this period. Real NBA All-Star Game defense vibes from France here. France said, One two, three, Cancun. France didn't even put up an out-of-office message.

And finally, and I love this one, France honoring their culture by going on strike. Thanks to alert listener Shremes, if you realize that jokes about France are still funny, Congrats. You made the overworked Twitter joke of the week. The Hulu original series Furious is coming to Disney Plus. Starring Emmy Rossum, Furious follows FBI agent Alice Black on the hunt for a mysterious and calculating serial killer.

Both walk their own paths toward justice. And as their lives start to intertwine, the line between right and wrong begins to blur. Don't miss the three-episode premiere of the Hulu original series Furious on July. 27th, only on Hulu on Disney Plus. My name is Peter Parker, but I'm also Spider-Man. This July, we're faced with a threat. I can be anyone.

The world may have forgotten Peter Parker. I'm just a neighbor, friendly neighbor. But he hasn't forgotten them. Sometimes Spider-Man has to do the hard thing. That's my responsibility. Dr. Banner? I didn't know you could get that big. Spider-Man, brand-new day.

In theaters, July 31st. This episode is brought to you by L'Oreal Group. Beauty is a powerful force that moves us. That's why L'Oreal Group has built a business that is inclusive at its heart with 100% of its brands championing diversity. With 25,000 professional opportunities for people under 30 worldwide and 54% of leading positions held by women, diversity is a strength that helps L'Oreal Group create the best beauty products for all people.

Visit L'Oreal.com to learn more. All right, two quick ones We'll get out of here. We talked last week about Donald Trump's war Against the New York Times. Turns out the war was much wider than we thought. The original story here was that the New York Times reported on Donald Trump's New Air Force One,

which was gifted to him by Cutter. The report said that the new Air Force One lacked some of the security measures, or may have lacked some of the security measures of the old Air Force One. And in fact, Donald Trump flew the old Air Force One. old plane back from Turkey. In response to that story, the Justice Department

served subpoenas to Times reporters who wrote the story, said, hey, you have to testify before a grand jury. Because, of course, the White House wants to know who leaked those details to the Times. Well, now the papers of very own Mike Grinbaum reports that the Justice Department also subpoenaed the phone

records of Times reporters and their relatives as part of this investigation. according to Grinbaum, one reporter's mother who was a mental health professional was part of this another reporter's spouse who was employed in a senior role at a major law firm, as Grinbaum puts it, was also part of this.

And what's more, the phone records they sought go back to January 1st. These are articles, David, that ran in July. So as the time says, boy, this sure feels like a fishing expedition to try to figure out who someone's sources are. What would be the least problematic job for a spouse or relative to have?

Or what would be the best? If you're an upright times reporter? No, I mean, but like, because they said, like, who was a therapist, you know, like a mental health professional like that, like the problem is you're listening on super private stuff, right? Like there's like there's an implication there. What would be the best implicate?

Like, I'm trying to think. Mr. Erlik, one of the reporters whose husband is one of the jerky boys was reviewed. And you just have to imagine this world in which the FBI is stuck on all these crank calls trying to make sense. Does that appear on their own phone bills? Yeah. Is that still happening? People are still cranked phone calls?

No, I don't know. I don't know. It just kind of begins and ends with the jerky boys. Just the name for me. I'm not sure. Can you imagine if my mom and your mom's phone records were. subpoenaed. Just like lots of customer service calls, lots of calling.

Incoming. Also incoming customer service calls. They were actually picked up. I was like, mom, don't pick that up. That's not real. You don't want that. But also the like calling the business and saying, what are your hours today? Yes.

Something you and I would never do. Mm-hmm. Why do you think this story pissed off Donald Trump so much? Like, of all the stories, why does the Justice Department been sick on this? Well, there was an immediate response, right? Like, when this story came out, it was, it was, it had been responded to by the, you know, quick response desk already. Like, you know, and they were very, so, I mean, there must be an element of it as like,

of like Donald Trump was like awake and watching Fox News at the moment the story broke. You know, I'm sure there was some like visceral, you know, rationale behind this. But it's also becoming, it's, I mean, it's weird. I don't want to give the administration too much credit for really being. canny about these things, but this is really becoming the weak spot. This is the weak underbelly. It's this sort of like inability to, to function in the Middle East and to get anything right there and be making good decisions there. And it goes to this larger narrative. And if you can't do that right with all the bluster, then what on, then like, does anything hold up?

I think this goes back to the very beginning of the presidency when he accepted this dumbass gift and everybody. And the very, the most core aspect of Trump, Trumpism, which is just like, who are you going to believe me or your lying eyes? Right? When the very first reaction of this was Trump was like, well, the other planes are going to take too long. And people are just like, it will cost more to make more time and take longer to make this plane actually ready to fly than it would be just to wait for the other ones.

And he said, ha, ha, you're wrong. And just like with the reflecting pool and the invasion of Iran, everything else, it's just like, actually, you're, it's, you're full of shit. And here is the proof, right? You switched planes. That was probably it. It was him switching the planes that made this into a story, and he knows that he,

and he probably feels like an idiot for doing it. For old time's sake, that was the reason he gave for switching planes. Yeah. So I don't know how much he's aware of this, but I guarantee it's the switching of planes that really just, like, just made him pissed off. He just didn't like that new plane smell,

which can be kind of overwhelming. I feel like his entire life is just new car smell. People just sticking glade plug-ins in all around him. finally and far less seriously Tom Brady and professional wrestling Tom Brady is apparently pursuing a career because he's fighting with Logan Paul

including at the World Cup final I didn't I didn't imagine that right they were in the stands and they were like flipping each other off or he was flipping them off or whatever what's so funny to me about this is that everybody has agreed that we are going to write a think piece about how

Tom Brady has gone too far. Tom Brady is losing it. Tom Brady is having a strange midlife crisis. I'm like, first of all, now is when you think that? Like when he sat on stage at the roast and everybody made jokes about Jazeel and, you know, other people having sex with Jazeel, that was not the midlife crisis. This is it when he wants to be in professional wrestling. Okay. I mean, as the wrestling guy, it's a little bit perplexing. It made a lot of sense when they first started teasing it, But nine months ago because WrestleMania was about to be in Las Vegas

and it felt like, oh, maybe he's got that Raider situation, maybe there's a connection there. Now I don't really know what the upside is because it does even feel like Tom Brady. I mean, listen, they just had a cool Saturday Night's main event moment with Jaylen Brunson and Tyrese Halliburton

two diehard fans, but obviously having Brunson making this big appearance in MSG was enormous and Aliburton working heel. The whole thing was great. It makes you feel really validated as a wrestling fan that like you know the wider culture is sort of willing to play along

but what but still I'm still left here saying what does Tom Brady have to gain from any of this it's perplexing other than he just really kind of wants to be a real life heel and just laugh at all of these moralistic articles written being written

about him it does feel like I don't know when the trophy gets awarded or at what point in the process you become the greatest football ball, the greatest quarterback of all time, but at that moment, you have to really be willing to sign away all of these other life pleasures, right? It's just like this, fill in the blank, like 98% of human experience is beneath the honor of the greatest quarterback of all time. It's beneath him, right? Yes. We have ideas about what he should be doing with his life.

Yeah. We've acknowledged you're the greatest, so quit hanging out with girls, like parties. You can't do this stuff anymore. I just, I mean, there's two things to me. Like, to the question of what does Tom Brady want, he wants money, obviously, doing tons of commercials, doing all this stuff. I understand that. I do believe when you look at the roast

and even this to a point, I do think there's part of Tom Brady that just wants to be something other than Mr. Perfect to use a bad name, because that's actually the name of a dear departed wrestler. But to be knowable in a way, to be fun? Yeah, I mean, we had this conversation a lot

in the lead up to the Fox gig, too, because it was like, what does he need to establish about himself in those early days to make himself really successful? And that was a huge bullet point, right? You have to be a human being, or at least have a fake version of yourself that we treat like a human being.

Yes. So, yeah, it's very, I mean, but at this point, what is to gain? Because he's already got the job, and he's already got the public perception. Is there anything you could do by slapping Logan Paul that will change?

public perception of them, I question it. But I don't begrudge him the opportunity. If he, if this is fun, you know, enjoy fantasy camp. It's going to be, you know, I'm sure it'll get a lot of people's eyes on the good wrestling. I just don't think anybody's really

mad at this. This is just such a easy story to write. It's like, guy, you're not really upset about Tom Brady. You're not. Like, I do understand, I do think there's something interesting looking at this guy who's divorced and who like, you know,

it was the greatest quarterback of all time, maybe the greatest player of all time, and then all of a sudden just doesn't totally know what to do with his life, just as like, I'm not a football player anymore. What do I do? And it's all happening out in front of our eyes.

That is fascinating to me. I don't believe anybody's really upset. No. I'm like, oh, Tom, this is awful. I will tell you this. So, I mean, literally I recorded my wrestling podcast moments before we hit record on this one.

Just moments ago. We talked at great length about Jalen Brunson and Tyreys Hallibor. I don't think we mentioned Tom Brady on the podcast. You're the one podcast that didn't The wrestling podcast It just doesn't really matter I'm sure we would have talked about it for a second

If it had come up But by it's like not even in the running For most significant celebrity involvement In pro wrestling this week So Linda Cone started her new YouTube show And Tom Brady and wrestling was like batten leadoff Like this is how this is how big it is

This is how disgusted people are I got a better story about wrestling for you because next week next week next Tuesday there was a grand new book coming out yeah and that book is by a noted author

named one of a second I'm sure I'm pronouncing this right David Shoemaker you have just this is we didn't even set this up you just received the first literally I've not held a copy in my hand and it's right here like it came

between the mail Between the wrestling podcast and this podcast, they check the mail. It's here. I think it's here. I'm about to open this up, and it's going to be someone else's book, and you'll get me crying,

but that's it. If people don't believe me, I saw David's secretary actually bring it in on camera between the podcasts. That was just one of the office window behind me? Is that it were common? It really does. Looks like Sam Spade's old office.

All right, here we go. David's going to open up his new book and reveal the cover and title. What if it's a surprise to me, too? I don't know. Yeah, David, we had to change the title. Yeah.

Sorry, tearing this off. Get this a good on camera. All right, here we go. Two copies here. Keep that mic near your mouth, by the way. All right, here we go. Ready? David Shoemaker.

Why Hulk Hogan matters. Hell yes. It is not a love letter, but if you love him, you'll probably like it. That's a good elevator pitch, by the way. Have you been working on that? It was my first time. I'm doing that. No, no.

I'll say it again. You do that off the top of your head? Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, no, this is exciting. This is the first time I've had a new book in my hands that I wrote in a decade. So, you know, I want to feel old. So, yeah, thank you to all the good folks at Harper for having this come out.

We're going to do a lot of fun stuff. It's not officially out today. You can't order it on pre-order on Amazon or wherever else. So go check it out. But next week, when it's officially on sale, Brian and I will be getting together to do a little Hulkogan-a-thon. A Hulkomania, if you will. A Hulkomania. So, yes, so this is going to be the July issue of the press box.

We are going to explore at length, an edgy new idea, how pro wrestling explains American politics. Just kidding. We're going to talk about, we are going to talk about Hulk Hogan as a time traveler through different eras of American culture. The 80s, the 90s, the Trump era, and David's book. I cannot wait to do this. That's a July issue.

David and I are going to actually record that tomorrow. Tomorrow, it's going to be out on Monday. How about Monday? Sounds good. Get everybody fired up. And in the meantime, yeah, go pre-order David's book. Because he is David Shoemaker. And I'm Brian Curtis.

Produx the magic by Isaiah Blakely and John Jones. Coming up next week, yes, the July issue about Hulkomania running wild. That's coming out next week. Also this Wednesday, New York month continues, David. And inside the Ringer Studios, I am pleased to be joined by MSNOS now. Stephanie Ruhle. Yeah. We're going to talk about a lot of subjects,

none of which are Hulk Hogan, but we're going to talk about Donald Trump and politics and her very interesting career over there at MSNL. Instagram, we're at Press Box Ringer. Check us out over there. David, I will see you actually tomorrow,

but I will see you in podcast land next Monday with more lukewarm takes about the media. See that, David. See you later, right? Hey, y'all. It's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder what if, like what if it doesn't hold?

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