The Press Box - Why ‘Sicario’ Needed a Sequel, With Stefano Sollima | The Big Picture (Ep. 489)

Episode Date: June 29, 2018

The Ringer’s Sean Fennessey and Chris Ryan discuss the unlikely 'Sicario' franchise and its approach to violence and morality along the U.S.-Mexico border with ‘Sicario: Day of the Soldado’ director Stefano Sollima. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I mean, in telling a story. I want to sit in a movie together. I don't want to be to have a director or a role. writer that bring my hands and explain to me what I have to feel. I'm Sean Fennacy, editor-in-chief of The Ringer, and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show with some of the most interesting filmmakers in the world, and also my colleague and friend Chris Ryan, aka The One True Soldado, and we are here today to talk about Sicario Day of the Soldado. Chris, you and I just interviewed Stefano Solemma, the director

of the new film, but before we talk to him, we're going to talk to you about why. Why Sicario is good? Why is Sicario good, Chris? So do you want to talk about why the franchise is good? Yeah. Because now it is the most unexpected, possibly the most unexpected franchise we have on our hands in the last five years. I mean, I think listeners of your podcast, The Watch, know that you're very emotional and excited about this. The original movie, Denny Villeneuve's 2015 original.

What did you think when they announced the idea of doing a sequel to that movie? I thought somebody was having a laugh. I thought somebody was playing a practical joke on me. That being said, when you watch Sakhar. the original Sicario film, the characters of Matt and Alejandro, the Josh Bolin and Benicia del Toro characters, they're used as these mysterious figures

that are half obscured narratively, half obscured by shadow. You don't quite know anything about the Josh Burlin character, Matt, this Department of Defense contract. And then Alejandro, you really only get the broad outlines of a revenge story.

This is, he was a lawyer in Mexico, his family was killed by a cartel, ever since then he has been on a mission to destroy them by any means necessary. That worked very well for that film because it didn't require a lot of explanation. It was so focused on Emily Blunt's Kate character and her path. This film makes a very good case for foregrounding those characters because it shows a kind of depth of the world, if not a depth of feeling. And I think that that's ultimately going to be the thing that turns people on or off to this film.

Yeah, we talked to Stefano about that a little bit and what the absence of an Emily Blunt character means for a story like this. Did you remember walking out of the first film and thinking, like, I want to know where Matt Graver is going next? No, but here's the thing that's important to remember is that they could not have gone back and done the same movie again. Because the part of Sicario's appeal was it's sort of out of nowhereness. I don't think that there was a lot of clamoring for a movie like that. And its first weekend box office suggested that people were right. It was a rare slow burn. I think it wound up making 85 domestically,

but really lived on as a movie that, you know, obviously we talked about on our podcast a lot. You'd see memes of it. People obviously were watching this movie over and over again. It is a darkly rewatchable film. So it had that long tail. And I think that it just happened to correspond with the assessment. ascendance of Josh Berlin and Benichel del Toro having these late career renaissance

that made it a really viable thing to do. Yeah, it's an interesting thing. Villeneuve was at an inflection point in his career. I think he had made On Sundi, he had made an enemy, he had made a lot of well-liked art movies, but wasn't yet the director of a rival and Blade Runner 2049, and he used it as kind of a springboard, I'd say. Stefano is somebody who I was really not familiar with before this was announced.

You were, though, because you were a big fan of. of the TV series Gomorrah, which he was essentially the lensman for the whole show. What did you know about Sulema going into this? He seemed particularly, when he was announced as the director of Soldato, I immediately took my interest out of sort of, oh, this is going to be hilarious to see them

try to make a sequel to Sicario to, oh, they're not playing around. They went out and got a filmmaker who is very well versed in being up close and personal with the criminal underworld. Now, as you can hear me talking about this, I feel my heart racing. I feel like my voice modulating and getting excited. And I think that this is going to be the main, and it has already with the reviews, but what I really want to talk about with you is how your reaction to Day of the Soldado what it says about you, you know, as a person and as a moviegoer.

Because Solima definitely tapped into a vein of film going that is unfashionable, I think. today. Yes. And frankly, is not something I'm super comfortable being like, that's a dope movie. Like, I definitely thought Dave Sold Auto was phenomenal. I thought it was a fantastic movie. But it is a weird movie to put in like your Facebook likes. Yes, that's a very interesting way of framing it.

I felt similarly. As I was watching the movie, I couldn't help thinking about the discourse about the movie that was coming for it, despite the fact that as filmmaking and even as storytelling in a lot of ways, I think it's really effective, really well done. Sulema is really talented. And he sharply identifies the fact that he's in the same sort of continuum of Villeneuve without necessarily ripping off or aping or even duplicating any of his stuff. And it's a continuum that I think you and I probably were raised by.

Frankenheimer, Walter Hill, John McTiernan, Sam Peck and Paw, a very masculine, a very gritty, a very, you know, in love with these sort of violent legends of the criminal underworld of the American West that they make these films about. White knuckle genre movies, mostly targeting male audiences, honestly, mostly starring men. I mean, that was an interesting differentiator that the original film had, which was completely through that, that Emily Blunt purview. And we don't have that here.

There is a young woman who stars in this film. She's a daughter of a cartel leader. But unlike Emily Blunt's Kate character is under no illusions about where she is in the world and what's going on. And she's as savage as any other character in the movie, despite going through some pretty traumatic stuff. I certainly feel fine saying that I liked the movie. I do worry specifically given where we're at as a country and our relationship to the border and the conversation on immigration,

what people will do and how they'll use this movie to either desecrate it or desecrate some sort of political conversation. I think it's easy for me to see it in that continuum of stories that you're talking about, that this has more in common with point blank and convoy than it does what's on CNN tonight. And that to me is meaningful, but you know, that's not necessarily always the state of cultural dialogue in 2018. We can't always separate those two things.

Do you have any personal misgivings about putting a line between the two? What I liked about this movie is that it challenged me on my semantics. So it challenged me on the way I would use, the words I would use to describe an action set piece, the words I would use to describe the moral compass if there is one of the film itself. because I don't think it's sufficient to just say that was exhilarating or horrifying. You know, and that, you might put horrifying is the first 40 minutes

of saving Private Ryan, but exhilarating might be a Jason-born car chase or something like that, or even a Fast and Furious scene that you happen to like or a die-hard scene you happen to like, something that's a little bit more cartoonish. And then horrifying is like Black Hawk Down, saving Private Ryan,

something that's about the, it's the horrors of what happens to people who are engaged in violence. I don't think that that is a sufficient way to describe this movie. The action scenes are in the top one percentile of how good you can shoot something like this. I don't know that you walk away. I defy anybody and I watched the premiere of it last night. Nobody was fist pumping.

Nobody was like, yeah, get them. It takes your breath away in a way in which you have to have a real like sit down and gather yourself after these set pieces. And the set pieces in this film come one after another. after another. It's unrelenting. I just felt myself at a loss of words to describe how I felt about it. And I felt like that in and of itself was an accomplishment. I think that says a lot. I mean, we should probably let Stefano say the rest of it. I found it interesting that he was such a charming and nice person, given the grave nature of his film and his TV shows. Anything else you want to note about Sicario before we go? I'll be very curious to see how it does commercially

because I would be curious. They certainly set up a third film. And I would be curious to see whether this is in fact Taylor Sheridan's border trilogy and how that works itself out. And I'm fascinated to see what people think of it, given the state of the Mexican border right now in this country. You might have identified your directorial debut, Chris, Sikario 3, Day of the Process. Chris Ryan, thanks again, buddy. Let's get right to our conversation with Stefano Solima.

Really delighted to be joined by not just my colleague, Chris Ryan, but Stefano Solima. Stefano, thank you for coming in. Congratulations on Sicario Day of the Soldado. How'd you get caught up in the world of Sicario? First, I was a big fan of the first. I thought that was the best movie I've watched that year. And I love this kind of movie, this genre of movie.

And then I was working along with Molly Smith, developing another project written by James I, James Elroy, the great. Yeah. It was amazing. You really have a type. You really have a crime type. Yeah, this is what I love to do.

And then they start with, they spoke to me about this idea of this saga, the other mind. And then of course I was a bit resistant, let's say, in the beginning. I mean, I feel that Cigario is not exactly a film that you expect a sequel from. but they explained me that the idea was to create a strange kind of saga around the same world by using some of the characters, but they asked me to make a standalone movie. And this makes, of course, everything a little bit more complex and more interesting. And then I read the script by Taylor Sheridan.

It was really amazing. And most of all, was really close to everything I've done. So it was really close to the kind of movie I like to watch, and then, of course, I like to do. Did you have a sense that this movie was going to happen, whether you were a part of it or not, or did they want specifically for you to do this because of the experience that you had? Because, you know, the TV work that you've done and the film that you've made, like, it really is in concert with a lot of the stuff that you've done before. Yeah, I think. They were really smart because I pitched my version of the movie.

What's really close, I mean, Cigario, it's a film that I like because it's a kind of movie I can do. You know what I mean? Yeah. And then, of course, it's Denia's a completely different style. But let's say that we are exactly in the same world, in the same mood. No, every director has his own specificity, is on

we are like a fingerprint so it's stupid just the idea to try to copy another one so I think that it was a smart idea from the producer to find me and for me

I was a rap by CIA for now it's five years and then they gave to me an incredible amount of script to read I was trying to find a project where I was because

I I had to be sure not to lose my specificity and my touch. And then I think that Solado is a perfect example of a kind of movie that we don't produce anymore where you have this really gritty, brutal approach to the storytelling without being too gentle. So I think it was, I was more than honored to be part of it. Do you remember for you when you sort of started to become interested in the underworld? Because a lot of your work before Soldado deals with the criminal underworld in Italy.

And obviously, Solado takes place in this world that most Americans, most people, they know it's there. But they don't know how exactly the things that they're seeing on their television screens, how that happens when they watch the news. And the news comes up several times in Soldado. That's how people are interfacing with this. But for you, growing up, when did you first? become interested in the criminal underworld? From the beginning, because I sincerely and truly love a genre movie.

So, because I like to be entertained, but at the same time, I think that a movie has to reflect your time and the world that is around you. So I think it's playing with the gangster's movie, the copse movie, helps you in making this in creating an entertaining movie, but also with some topical issue as the background. And this is what I did from the beginning. I think it's an interesting way to explore your own society by doing with something that is not a direct take on it,

but is translated through an entertaining story. is more relevant than I assume even you could have imagined right now, given the climate and the world. How much are you in Taylor when you're starting out making the film talking about kind of the real world implications of something like that? And then also what you're trying to do when you're making a genre movie. And, you know, there's a difference between those two things. You wanted to feel accurate, but it doesn't have to necessarily be real or maybe vice versa. No, I think you has to be accurate and real in portraying the world. I mean, because it's like it's the only reason why,

the audience trust you. Because you need to be really precise and accurate. They need to feel that what you're talking about, it's not just a movie. It's a movie. So a fictional story, but based on the reality. In order to do this, I normally do an incredible amount of research. What does that look like? You go there and you try to speak with them, to try to live a little bit there.

to understand what's the real life in the border, in the case of a soldier. So I did, I've been there and then I crossed the border. I tried to speak with people border patrol agent and the people that smuggled with immigrants and also just normal people that lives in this crazy cohabitation with this incredible clandestine flux of people. I was curious about

what it was like to work with Benicchio and Josh on this movie because there was two characters people responded to very strongly in the first film

and they've spoken in the press run coming up into Sakario about their involvement in the script and their involvement in working with you and working with Taylor

to shape the story. Can you tell us a little bit about the day-to-day experience of working with actors like that, especially to actors who are

so hands-on with the script, so hands-on with how they developed their characters. Let's see this. When I jumped up in the project and we started talking, was clear they already played the character. So it was like, okay, let's see what we can do together. But since the script is really smart,

even though they already know their characters, they are facing in Soldado. so many difficulties, they have so many forks in front of them that was really a deeper and interesting exploration. And then so in the beginning was, okay, no, we know who we was in the previous one. Even though in the previous one, you get a sense of the two character because you always sees them

but through the eyes of Emily Blant and Emily Blant was judging them so it was a sort of moral compass in the story and then of course

here and it's good we don't have any why is it good it's good because I don't feel that you need a moral compass I mean in telling a story the audience is much smarter

than this I mean I don't want I want to sit in a movie theater. I don't want to be to have a director or a writer that bring my hands and explain to me what I have to feel. I'm going to feel it anyway. It feels like in some ways a more honest representation of some of the intensity and like horrible things that happen in these situations to not be put in a situation where we feel like we have somebody who's guiding us the way you say. But was there any concern about like maybe a lack of empathy going on? because there is just like a lot of terror.

It's very violent. It is very real. And so if you don't have something to lean on, is it okay? Like, will audiences feel safe? Do you think about that? Yeah, I think this is by experience because I already did it many times at this point. And this is not true. Because, I mean, of course, you are going to be guided for definition.

Because the director and the writer, we decide what you're going to watch and what you're going to experience. But at the same time, I don't want to never to judge a character. This is my personal approach. I just, I try to love them all. And then, of course, you are going to have your own idea about, but it's not necessarily to impose to you, mine.

This is the point. So I think that in Soldado, this was really interesting because you're going to have your own opinion on everything. But even if, let's say I had a step back, you still feel something, for example, for Alejandro. Definitely. You see as a really moving arch. Do you think it was helpful to be not American and not Mexican

and to approach this story? Do you think there was a benefit? fit to that? Probably, yes, you are less worried of the consequences of what you are doing. But, yeah, a bit. And I don't think it's a coincidence that Denier is not American. So, I mean, of course, it's, you, that way probably you have a sort of detached point of view that helps you in telling a story, honestly. Yeah, that's definitely how I feel there's two incredible. set pieces at the beginning of the movie,

one with the sort of the coyote and then the other in Kansas City in the shopping center. Can you talk a little bit about building those scenes and then the tension that goes into them and then also the kind of horrifying violence that you have baked in there? I mean, those are really effective, powerful,

visceral moments. Like, as a filmmaker, what do you do to make sure that those scenes work? In the first one, in the border sequence with the helicopter, was to try to adopt a sort of a neutral point of view, but more from the

side of the border patrol. So meaning this is another day and then we have a lot of immigrants to try to get in. But suddenly something happened. So the first one

was more based on the routine and the surprise at the end. Of course, by knowing what is going on now, so that you have a kamikaze. The second is played on tension. Because, you know, you already know

something bad is going to happen. And so the idea there was to play it at the opposite by having, again, a neutral point of view just to show, like in a news, footage by shooting it just through a long, long, long tracking shot without never stopping.

Yeah, the whole setup of that sequence is amazing. Where the film sort of starts up as a domestic war film, I noticed that about midway through when Angel shows up, it becomes a little bit of a western. And there's a rich tradition of Italian filmmakers and their interaction with the the Western genre.

I assume you grew up as a Leone fan. Can you tell me about the thrill it must have been to make a mini-Western inside of Soldado? But I did, you know what? While I was shooting in the desert, suddenly I slightly changed the way I usually shoot.

And I was, I said, why I'm doing this? I mean, the format is the same, the cameras. I mean, it's crazy. And then I understand that it was, First, the horizontal line that change everything in the storytelling. It seems strange, but it's real. I mean, it's changed. And then probably also the reminiscence of the Western.

So I slightly change from my style. And the movie, in a way, change style and becomes a bit more Western. And then also, I feel we can do spoiler here. Sure. Yeah. It's when Ben resurrect, I mean, it seems an old 70s western, where you have this moment of a classic... I would you say when you crucify someone, crucifaction. Crucifix.

Yeah, that in the West End, they always... The three-quarter of the movie, they are completely beat up, almost dying, and unforgiven was the same. Yeah, I said... I think it's right, but I discovered it while I was shooting. And I was a bit confused at the beginning. I said, why you're shooting that way? When you say when you're shooting that way, do you mean just sort of what's in the frame or the way you're approaching it on the side?

It's like that suddenly I, normally I can also use an adult camera. And so I try to be always close to the actor, but at the same time really wide to put them in a context. And in Soldado, I start shooting with the camera absolutely steady, doing not being really close to the actor and giving a lot of space around. I was a bit surprised. I said, why I'm shooting that way

and trying to have a long shot without too many cuts. Okay, guys, we're going to take a quick break from our conversation with Stefano. We'll be back right after this from a word from our sponsors. Support for today's show comes from Robite. The iOS and Android app that lets you control your Roku player on Roku TV. Robite does way more than a standard remote control. Just search for Robite, that's R-O-B-Y-T-E, in your app store.

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And now back to our interview with Stefano Solima. You know, you're a relatively new commodity, I think, to most American moviegoers. People probably interested in there. Like, who else do you look up to? You know, Chris mentioned Leo and who were the big filmmakers for you growing up? My father was a director, so I grew up by watching, let's say, one, two movies a day on my life. So, I mean, I think, let's say that I have an incredible amount of directors, but they change every five minutes, meaning that they are a lot.

So I don't feel that I have one. that is really my inspiration. I think that they have a lot of them. And then everything that you, I mean as a creative guy, I mean, everything you watch, everything you listen, the music, the art and photo, everything is gonna be part of your imagination. So I think you don't, it's, I don't have just one or two.

I have a million of them. Was there anything that you were watching that you asked the people who worked on the film to watch as a reference for Soldado? I never do this. No, okay. I know. And then also I feel really crazy when you go somewhere and pitch your movie by using as a reference other movies. It's strange. It's really, I love movies and I feel it's just a cheap guidance to something.

So I think what we did as a research, I show the production designer, Kevin Kavanaugh and Darius Swolski, an incredible amount of photo taken from real life. And for example, the idea of the hood, because originally was a written duffel bag. And then I show them a photo, a real photo, really. disturbing, where they used the t-shirt. Pulled over the head. Yeah, with the tape on. And then I felt that this was really a scary image. So, I mean, instead of using a reference of other movie, I mean, I always go back to the reality.

I think it's more interesting than you do your process. And for experience, I feel that sometimes reality, it's much more fresh. smart and unpredictable than the fiction. Is making a movie like this fun? Because it's a very grim story and it's very gripping, but it's very serious. Is it actually fun to do a movie like this? Yeah, this depends on the environment you create around you. So what do you do?

What are your sets of it? First, I mean, I asked the producer to replace all the crew from the, the previews because I didn't want to have someone on set to say, oh, we did this, why don't we? Oh, yeah. Danita doesn't like this. Yeah. It's okay. Let's start from the beginning.

We want to do a standalone movie. Let's do it. I did a lot of interview with super talented people from the crew. And then I choose the more nice, of course, talent. but also more as human being nice. Interesting. Yeah, because it's a tough bastard. Yeah, because the movie,

it's a too complex process to not to be in a nice, warm environment because it's going to be a long journey and then you want to have nice people around you. And so I think that the environment in Soldata was pretty nice. That's good. That's kind of ironic. Yeah.

What was the most challenging part of doing this? Was there a particularly difficult scene or sequence or anything of A lot? A lot. Yeah? A lot of different. The convoy sequence was a monster sequence to shoot. The Humvee 1 or the Mexico City. Yeah, the MV.

Okay. Because of course, since I don't like action for action, seems strange, but it's true. I mean, I don't like when you watch a movie where it's just bo, boom, boom, everything explodes. It's a car chase. I like when the action gives you an information on characters. So I always try to put my characters in the center of the action. And the convoy sequence was super complex because as it was written, it was a huge convoy attacked by the people. And then with a lot of characters involved and a lot of moving parts.

I mean, I decided to choose just one point of view that of course it's a bit risky because while you're shooting a complex action sequence for real, so practically, without visual effects, of course you want to be covered in the editing room. You want to have several shots of everything, no? By adopting the point of view of Isabella, by being with Isabella during this crazy,

crazy shootout. Of course, you limited a lot your option. And so we built along with Darius Wolski a strange

kind of because we were inside the MV but being able to turn the camera almost 300 degrees inside the Humvee

inside the degrees. And so we Darius is your DP. Yeah. Darius Walski. And then we and this was really

complex because you have to synchronize the camera the actor inside and an incredible shootout outside where you have big explosion people falling down I mean it was was complex and then of course it's something that you you are not covered the meaning that this is yeah it's a one shot you have to do it one so we did an incredible amount over yourself but then it's really cool how many takes Oh, no, a few. Yeah. One, two.

Because when it's like this, you have to do, I don't know, 20, 25 rehearsal. And then when you shoot here, it's just one or two. How much do you and Taylor collaborate when you're making the movie? Because, you know, Taylor's had a lot of successes as a screenwriter the last few years. He's become a little bit of a brand name. Are you guys talking while you're making the film a lot? A lot. I think I read the first draft

and then we get to the seven or eight together and then mostly I mean what we did together was to trim a little bit because before was really spread out much more than it is now because it was a lot of other

small stories and the story of a little guy was expanded and then was a different ending. So we worked together and then we trimmed a little bit in order to keep the soul but by reducing the material. And then what I asked him, this was my first pitch. Why don't we put them one against the other?

Because in the beginning of, in the first draft, they were together. And then at the end, Matt is flying to save him. And I introduced this. I think that it was more interesting and it gives more opportunity to explore and to go deeper in the exploration of the two characters. So to putting them one against the other. So to have the call, the phone call where he says, no, I cannot do it. Right.

What did you make of working on an American? in production? Was it different at all than what you've done in the past? Not really. This is my second foreign language project because the first one is Comorra, this one was in Napoliton. So it was totally different. Yeah, but was more or less the same. I mean, it's a different word

where they speak a different language. So, no, I don't think it was a big transition. As I told you, But the only thing I was worried since I know that here it's much more complex to get a movie financed. So you have a lot of people involved.

I was just worried to lose my soul in the transition. This is something that I was really worried. Is that why you waited as long as you did to make an American production because you were just concerned about the right situation? Absolutely.

And you're going to do more now? No, this is exactly what I'm going to do from here on. Just all Sicario movies? No, no, I don't think I'm I will never do a third one. I think it's too beautiful

the idea and too smart the idea of creating a saga where you have completely different but still in the same area, directors. Filmmakers, yeah. Yeah.

Playing with the saga that is much more interesting to watch this as a movie go worse I'm a spin than to watch again myself doing

another chapter I already did it What can you tell us about the series that you're working on right now? Zero zero zero It's based on

latest Roberto Saviano book. Roberto Saviano is the same author of Gomorrah and but let's say that at zero zero zero was

an expose was a journalistic book on drugs trafficking. And then what we did was to create a completely different story but based on the soul of the book. And the soul is a sort of gritty, compelling take on globalization

by using one of the most controversial goods, merchandise in the market. that is cocaine. So by following a single huge shipment of cocaine from Mexico to Italy, it's like we cross all over the world and we see how this economy of the drug trafficking that comes from the drug trafficking is affecting the real economy of the world. At the point where probably the real economy will never survive without all the money that comes from the drug trafficking. Fascinating. You prefer television or film?

What's your... I mean, I did both, and then it's just different, it's just different the time that you have at your disposal. I mean, it's, it's, I like movies when you have the right story that could be told in two hours. And sometimes in TV, you can be a little bit more free, especially if you work with, with cable or like when zero zero zero is going to be produced by Amazon. It's produced by Amazon, studio canal and Sky. So let's say that we have an incredible creativity, freedom.

But I love both. And then normally I do one and one, one and one. Chris, one movie. So what is, so you did zero zero zero, what would be the next film then? My next project is to take a vacation. but I'm developing Call of Duty and the script

and a cult cult is a Western based on the latest treatment Sergio Leone wrote before dying. Really? Oh, that's pretty exciting. It's really cool. That's a huge legacy to have in your hands too.

Yeah. Well, speaking of legacy, we end every show by asking filmmakers What's the last great thing that they've seen? So, Stefano, what's the last great thing that you have seen? Cicario Day of the Sautilis. You can't say that. You can't.

Anything else? Yeah, three billboards. What did you like about that? Amazing. I like how he write. Yeah. And also I like the journey. He pushes character in.

I mean, it's really always. real and unpredictable and I loved in in Brooch too because I'm an amazing writer one of our favorites Stefano thank you so much

for doing this today and see you thank you again so much for listening to this week's episode of The Big Picture if you'd like to hear more about Sicario may I direct you to

the ringer.com where Shea Serrano and Adam Neiman and a host of others are writing about the movie quite a complex movie it is and then next week a couple of podcasts

for you to keep an eye for one the rewatchables of July 4th extravaganza, me, Chris Ryan, Bill Simmons, the podfather. We're going to need a bigger boat. It's Jaws. Jaws is coming. I don't think Chris or I or Bill have ever been more excited for a podcast, so look out for that.

And then after the holiday, I'm going to be having a conversation with Peyton Reed, the director of Ant Man in the Wasp, Marvel's latest entry in their ever-expanding MCU. So please check that out.