The Press Box - Why the AP Fired Emily Wilder, Plus John Gonzalez on the Future of NBA Studio Shows

Episode Date: May 24, 2021

Bryan Curtis and David Shoemaker break down news of the Associated Press firing staffer Emily Wilder. They discuss how this affects journalists, how "cancel culture" was involved, and how the Associated Press is justifying the firing (3:08). Then, The Ringer’s John Gonzalez joins to talk about NBA studio shows and what we can expect from sports television in 2021 (22:18). Plus, the Overworked Twitter Joke of the Week and David Shoemaker and John Gonzalez Guess the Strained-Pun Headline. Hosts: Bryan Curtis and David Shoemaker Guest: John Gonzalez Associate Producer: Erika Cervantes Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Join author and former vibe editor-in-chief Danielle Smith and Black Girl Songbook as she celebrates and uplifts the talent of black women in the music industry. Tune in for in-depth discussions with your favorite songwriters, producers, and artists, as well as anecdotes from Danielle. Plus, you'll hear the songs of Black women who changed the landscape of American music forever. Check out Black Girl Songbook exclusively on Spotify. David, 50-year-old Phil Mickelson became the oldest golfer to win a major champion. over the weekend. What I want to know is what the old guy still got it news story could possibly be bigger than that. Wait, bigger than Phil Nicholson winning?

I mean, listen, he is the ultimate old guy still got it in so many ways. Although as like as a non-golf fan, I'll admit, I mean, I pay attention during the majors when they're, you know, on a big screen in a restaurant. I know he's an old guy, but I don't think, but I was kind of, that I, you know, heard a bunch of young players' names on, on fairway rolling and stuff to the point that I realized that, like, his, you know, there was a whole new generation, but I wasn't, like, utterly shocked that he was in contention when I turned on the TV. But as the Washington, the Washington Post Matt Weiser points out, Phil Mickelson wins a major, Tom Brady wins a Super Bowl, and Joe Biden wins the presidency.

Oh, yeah, okay. This is kind of an old guy still got it a couple of months. So where does this story possibly go from here? Well, we could just keep rolling with it. I mean, I don't know. Does they have to come in threes? We can move, like, what would be, look, summer 2020, let's say LeBron wins an NBA championship.

At that point, he's got to be considered an old guy who still got it, right? Sure. Indiana Jones 5 comes out. Harrison Ford comes back for like round three of old guys still got credentials. I'm sure you can think of a third one. Harrison Ford is good in a movie would actually qualify at this point for the old guy still got it. But him playing a role.

The role is also the old guy who still got it, right? The role has still got it. I got two I really like. George Lucas unretires and makes a great Star Wars movie again. Okay. Ultimate old guys still got it. And this is my kicker. Hillary Clinton wins the presidency.

Oh, yeah. The old gal still got it. That would just absolutely blow everybody's mind and I think be way with it. It would be worth like 10 Mickelsons. It would shatter the old guy glass ceiling for sure. Coming up on today's show, the Associated Press fired a reporter named Emily Wilder for her tweets. Why the hell did they do that? Plus for the NBA playoffs, the ringers John Gonzalez talks to David and me about the present

and future of the NBA studio show. All that more on the press box, a part of the ringer podcast network. Hello, media consumers, Brian Curtis and David Shoemaker here along with Erica Servantes. David, put on your fedora because we're going to grab our opening segment straight off the wires. Front page style. Let's do it. Because the big news last week was the Associated Press firing a reporter named Emily Wilder. Emily Wilder is 22 years old.

She went to Stanford. On May 3rd, she started a job at the AP's Phoenix Bureau. we will let Wilder pick up the story there in her own voice. Last Monday, the Stanford College Republicans launched a smear campaign against me, attempting to expose my already public history of activism for Palestinian human rights at Stanford University. I was transparent with my editors, and they reassured me I would not face punishment for my previous activism. She continues. Less than 48 hours later, the AP fired me.

The reason given was my supposed violations of the AP's social media policy sometime between my first day and Wednesday. In that interim, powerful conservatives like Senator Tom Cotton, Ben Shapiro, and Robert Spencer repeatedly lambasted me online. When I asked my managers which exact tweets were in violation of the policy or how they refused to tell me. Emily Wilder would later tell the San Francisco Chronicle, there's no question I was just canceled. Oh man. I was hoping we were going to be able to set aside cancel cultural hypocrisy until at least the end of the conversation. Can we do that? Sure. Okay. This is a wild, no pun intended story. It's almost, I mean, listen, we're never going

to get probably the AP side of this, at least full disclosure of how the decision-making process went on. So we're only left with assumptions. In this case, the assumptions are fairly easy to draw or conclusions are fairly easy to draw, though they're all assumed. I would just, I would assume that the conversation went something like, this new hire is becoming a pain in the ass. It's, you know, this job title does not merit this amount of consternation on the part of me, says whoever the person in charge is. And so let's just cut bait.

I mean, the craziest, I mean, that to me would make complete sense. for a human being to do. From the AP's perspective. From the AP's perspective, but it's the utterly wrong thing to do. I mean, it's the worst thing you could possibly do. The people that merit,

the people that seem like the least, I mean, that seem like the greatest imbalance between, you know, problems that they create and significance of their role. Those are the people who you should be defending more than anyone else.

Because they don't, one, have the power to defend themselves. And two, they are more emblematic of whatever standard, you are claiming to uphold whatever journalistic integrity or purity that you claimed uphold, then you're more powerful, more famous staffers. This is the incidents where you should really simply, clearly, and definitively say,

no, why would we hire that? Why would we fire that person? And if there's a really good reason why, then you should be clear about that. Amen to all of that. And a couple of notes on that front. I think I saw Matthew Zitland make this point on Twitter. A lot of people made this point. Emily Wilder was working in Phoenix covering local news. She was not a reporter in the Middle East.

So this idea that somehow something she did or a club she joined or an organization she joined in college would rule out covering news in Phoenix is just crazy. It is absolutely crazy. I don't get that at all. I don't get that at all. Second, if you read her comments after that, after all this happened, she seems like she would have happily, you know,

sort of gone whichever direction they wanted her to go and social media or at least listen to them. You know, if they were like, hey, this issue is very charged. Can you just tweet AP stuff? I don't know what they would have said.

It doesn't sound like she was opposed to that idea or at least hearing them out on that. Sure. she worked at the Arizona Republic before this, which is not exactly like working at Defector. And somehow this was not like, hey, let's, can we sit down here

and talk about social media just for a second? Because this is the AP or whatever. It was, you've lost your job. That just seems like a ridiculous reaction. And that's why you have to assume it was just a reaction. An overreaction, a ridiculous reaction,

whatever, you know, you want to call it. I mean, I said I didn't want to talk about cancel culture, but there is an incredible irony in the fact that conservatives, and I don't even feel bad about painting with a broad brush because this is, this feels like it's come out of the mouth of every conservative politician and certainly every conservative talking head. But the idea that you should be punished for having a different point of view during your college years is a constant source of disgruntlement for conservatives. you know, I mean, the idea that people are being, that conservative voices are being shushed or quieted or ignored or canceled on college campuses is, they complain about it all the time.

And now we're just like targeting someone specifically for the point of view they had, for political points of view they had in college, and whether or not they still have them, or pointing to things that happened when she was a college student. I mean, I'm sure everybody, every sober-minded person has said, at some point in their life, if, you know, my employers had a complete detailing of what my college life was like, I'd probably be fired, too. But like, but this is a case where this is

explicitly something you shouldn't be fired over. Listen, I don't think that most people in college have political opinions that will stick with them for the rest of their lives. I think more often than not, people do complete 180s from where they are in college, but that's sort of beside the point. Having a political conviction to this degree during your college years is evidence that you will probably be good at doing this job, right? Caring about any, like, serious subject to this degree should be taken as a positive thing. And the idea that you could even be, like, completely wrong about something. I mean, certainly there are opinions that I think are beyond the pale.

I don't even know if we need to get into it. But I think in most cases, those opinions would exhibit a weakness or closure of your mental ability and not, like, a source of, I mean, not a signal of, like, deeper interest in current affairs. And in human rights. You know, I mean, this is a real, to take her at her word, even at the time, this just seems like, again, like the least problematic thing I can imagine. Wilder made the exact same point you just made.

She says, the compassion that drove my activism is part of what led me to be a reporter committed to just critical fact-based coverage of under-told stories. You want people like me. because I had enough interest in college to get involved in these things, to think about things, to, to, you know, do this. And so that is just, that, that whole point to me is exactly what you're saying. Can you, can you imagine living your life in college like an AP reporter? Those were the restraints put on your life. Are you serious?

Like this, like this idea. And the AP is close, is as close as close. any journalistic outlet to requiring, and here is a word from our SAT prep, you might remember, a sort of monastic outlook. You sacrifice a lot of literary style. You sacrifice viewpoint. Sometimes you even sacrifice your name at the top of the article. Yeah.

How many times do you read an AP story in the paper that says from wire reports? And they don't even tell you who put the words in the article. but in a way if we can have the bad faith right wing troll campaign part of this conversation here that's what makes the AP so vulnerable vulnerable does it not

all every time this happens they are going to the news outlets neutrality. Ah ha ha you say you're neutral but look what happened look what this person tweeted when they were 19 years old uh oh doesn't do it and the AP being

the most you know taking that idea the most seriously to me makes them the most vulnerable, in theory anyway, to these kind of campaigns. Yeah, I mean, and their place is a wire service. I mean, not for nothing, but those wire service bylines or associated press bylines that you see from time to time are more prevalent in, I mean, this is not based in fact, but in my experience, much more prevalent in small town newspapers, in conservative districts, and in red states, than they are in the big New York Times, Eastern liberal journalistic outposts of the world

because newspapers are shrinking, budgets are shrinking, and jobs are disappearing, and a lot of those jobs are being replaced by Associated Press wire stories. And so you would understand why the Associated Press would feel more frightened of a backlash from that side, right?

I mean, they're probably filling up a lot of people papers that are that you know who's few remaining employees maybe ideologically opposed to or maybe more ideologically in line with the people who are trying to get wilder canceled than than wilder college persona but it's it's just really it's just really sad i mean what they're selling is impartiality what they're selling is should be the idea that you can rise above you know that the journalism sort of transcends those sorts of political beliefs especially when it's done correctly. And the fact that they caved so quickly, I think made exactly the opposite point.

I get what you're saying theoretically about small newspapers. I really think the odds of any of those canceling their AP subscription because of Emily Wilder was pretty much nil. No, I don't think so either. I mean, I don't have any evidence that, like, there's a blaze wire service or something like that that's like trying to sneak in and grab all these spots. Can we get the UPI? Is that still around? we get another wire service is right down the middle. It's still a crossword puzzle answer a whole lot, so I would assume so.

It's a, no, no, I mean, you're right. No one's going to come in and take that spot. But if this is a ridiculous and borderline reckless decision to fire her so quickly, if it was made, as I presumed at the very beginning of the segment, out of just like a sort of pre-exhaustion, like I don't want to deal with this by somebody, Then you could imagine them saying, I don't want to deal with this when it comes to just offending their subscribers too. So a couple of people make the point about the difference in the way Chris Cuomo's ethical transgressions were handled. And this non-ethical transgression was handled.

Olivia Nuzzi also tweeted this. This is an interesting point. Nobody is served by news organizations promoting the myth that reporters are a special class of people who either don't have or are kids. capable of totally suppressing feelings and thoughts about the world in which they live. It's dishonest and everyone knows it. To set the standard at objectivity rather than fairness denies the reality of what it is to be what it is to be a person. It's silly and naive and insulting to news consumers. It greets them with phoniness and encourages distrust.

I also thought Sarah Jones made a really good point in New York Magazine. She said essentially that the AP is actually showing by doing this that it's not impartial. Yeah, exactly. It can be persuaded, she writes, if only from the... the right. So that's interesting too, right? If you were taking down the line neutrality as your highest calling, then why are you letting these people tell you what to do? I think that's a totally fair point to bring up. I do too. And I think that, I mean, this isn't the same thing as perpetuating a myth, but even to have firing be on the table, for instances like this, you know, I think,

I think that's got to set them back, and it's going to set them back for every employee dispute, major or minor going forward for the next decade, right? I mean, this should not, it shouldn't have even been a discussion. You could have been like, even if their reaction was, this is unforgivable, and so she will be punished behind the scenes or, you know, behind closed doors, would be a lot different than just cutting her loose in a split second decision, right? I mean, just to have someone losing their job be on the table, I think is just a terrible precedent to set. Obviously, sometimes people are going to lose their jobs, but why this is that. Even a discussion in this case was just crazy. There was this open letter signed by 100 plus AP staffers that you sent me.

And I feel whenever this, whenever one of these things happen, everybody gropes around for, okay, what are the rules? If you're saying I broke the rules, then tell me what the rules are and tell me, how whatever I did on Twitter broke the rules. This letter says the move, quote, gives us no confidence that any one of us couldn't be next, sacrificed without explanation. It has left our colleagues, particularly emerging journalists, wondering how we treat our own, what culture we embrace, and what values we truly espouse as a company. I totally get all that. And I would want to know, what the rules are too, so that if I break them, I am knowingly breaking them, rather than accidentally breaking them or breaking them after the fact. But man, so many of these just come down

to just don't do the stupid thing publication. Whatever the rule is or whatever, just have some common sense, right? If you want to talk to her about social media, talk to her about social media. Yeah. Don't do the super dumb thing. We always talk about this with these things. Like, the rule is don't be stupid. I understand we do.

We need clear rules. Workers need clear rules. There's union considerations and all this. There are all kinds of considerations. But also, don't be dumb. don't do the really dumb thing. Well, you could ask people to not do the dumb thing. And that's, you know, I think that would be asking a lot of certain organizations.

You could also ask people to do the, to not do the dumb thing when it comes to just PR. I mean, listen, they're making this decision based on the pressure that as it relates to. Of course. Public relations or whatever. Of course. But to be so, talk about doing the dumb thing, to be so blinded as to think there wouldn't be a backlash to the backlash in 2021. I mean, you could draw a direct parallel to the Israel-Palestine situation and the way that a lot of that's being covered differently now than it has been in years past. But just to not have the, I mean, to be a newspaper of record, for this to be your, you know, for this to be your job and to not have a passing recognition for the fact that like you can't just give in to a handful of right-wing trolls and that be the end of it.

that wasn't going to be the end of the... I mean, this wasn't the easy way out. You made a decision based on this being the easy way out, and it was just the absolute opposite of that. That's what's crazy. This was the hard way out. Now, you might ask, who is the executive editor of the Associated Press? Ah, it's Sally Busby,

who was just named executive editor of the Washington Post. Now, do you recall, like, nine press box episodes that were about the Washington Post and the social media posts of their reporters? Uh-oh. John Schwartz of the Intercept tweets says all reporters of the Washington Post and the Post Guild should ask the post incoming editor Sally Busby to comment

on how and why Emily Wilder was fired. That seems like a really, really good idea. Yeah. And potentially a really tough conversation. All right, David, let's do the overword Twitter joke of the week where we celebrate a gag that was so obvious that all of media Twitter

made it at exactly the same time. Send your nominees to at the press box pod where they are always gratefully received. David, this news item from the Hill got a lot of attention. The CDC urges against kissing, snuggling poultry in salmonella warning. No kissing or snuggling with your poultry. It was an overworked Twitter joke to write, come on, just a peck. That's funny. Thanks to Charles Prior the 3rd. We would have also accepted Gonzo is punching the air right now. I just didn't see the Muppet reboots.

Is that the fact that Gonzo loved chickens? Was that widely known enough to work as an overworked Twitter to it? I'm assuming we would have had a segment on the conservative outrage over, over its absence. Gonzo has been canceled. From the world of baseball, David. Last week, the Tampa Bay Rays traded away their starting shortstop, which clears a spot for Ray's top prospect

Wander Franco. Wander Franco. It was an overworked Twitter joke to write any variation of Wander how long until this guy gets called up. Thanks to Mark Feinthand. That was very overworked. And finally, David, an item from the website

The Verge. Quoting here, Google is opening its first physical retail store this summer in New York. There is going to be a Google physical store in New York City. Okay.

It was an overwork Twitter joke to imagine what customers might possibly do in the physical Google store. Would you like to hear some of those ideas? Absolutely, yeah. Walking up to the cashier and shouting, Indian food near me. Walking up to the cashier and asking how to write an eye-catching resume in 2021. Walking up to the cashier and asking for. Diana Ross's shoe size. Who among us hasn't done that on Google?

Walking up to the cashier and asking every celebrity's age. I would also add asking every journalist age, because I sometimes do that when I want to get mad at people. And I enjoyed this response. What is the Google store selling? My info? Thanks to Fartagnan. If you went to the Google store and asked how to pronounce

Evica Zubats, congrats. You made the overworked Twitter joke of the week. Did you just credit Fartagnan. Fartagnan. That's a great one. I believe this is not the first

submission from Fartagnan. Or e-mission? Go on. Thanks to Fartagnan for your loyal listenership of the Pressbox Pod. All right, David, in the notebook dump, the NBA playoffs started for real over the weekend. People might have caught some games,

and they might have caught the studio shows that are shown before, during, and after the games. What they might not have realized is that there is certain state of flux that NBA studio shows are in right now. Our guy, John Gonzalez, wrote an awesome piece in The Ringer about this, and he's here to explain the state of the NBA studio show, Gons. Welcome to the press box. Gentlemen, wonderful to be here, delightful to see your smiling faces. All right. There is some friction, you write, at this moment, on NBA studio shows,

particularly on TNT. What is it? Yeah, I think it's an interesting moment for NBA studio shows in general and then specifically for TNT because for years we've had the same group, right? We've had Ernie and Kenny and Charles and Shaq, Shaq being on the show for the last 10 years, is somehow still the young guy of that group. He's 49 years old now and he qualifies as the youngster. And I think for some people, you know, maybe some ringer readers certainly who like analytics or like to follow the way that basketball has a boss. watching that show sort of runs counter to everything we know about the modern NBA

because for all of their long-term greatness on that show inside the NBA, Shaq and Charles and Kenny will tell you straight away that they're not really the guys who are going to break down current NBA trends,

ball movement, pick and rolls, shooting threes, things of that nature. It's much more an entertainment show. And I think what they've done with the Tuesday show, which is somehow not called inside the NBA, but as a much longer and unwieldy name by bringing in Candace Parker and Dwayne Wade, it's sort of this new movement, this new era, it's sort of a pivot point in what

they want to do with the program going forward. And Shaq is also on the Tuesday show. And tell us, before we dive into this, some of the gaffes that have happened with him and Candace Parker. Well, I mean, forget about even just him and Candace Parker. There's been a lot of those, and I'm happy to get into those. But did you guys see just this literally during the six or Wizards game over the weekend, Shack, of all people, was busting Charles's balls because Charles fell asleep. And so, like, that's kind of their bit, right?

They talk about how unengaged they are and how they don't watch the games that's by design, you know, when they're watching highlights, they're watching them in real time for the first time. And part of that is, like, you know, a genius to their madness. But also part of it is just their, these superstar Hall of Famers who feel like, you know, they've been there and done that

and don't really need to go the extra mile, which is in stark contrast to when you mentioned somebody like Candace Parker, who's obviously extremely studied and an extremely smart and current person about where today's basketball is. And if you watch that show even for half a second, you're going to get a Candace Parker dissertation on modern NBA basketball that often flummoxed Shaq. Yeah, I mean, I think that's sort of what's most entreeing about Shaq's being on both shows, right?

is that when he signed up with Inside to begin with, it felt like he was sort of of of a piece with the old, you know, Chuck and Kenny studio show, right? Just that sort of that level of engagement. I mean, I don't want to speak too broadly. I don't watch it every night in and night out. And he occupies, maybe he occupies sort of a different role, even though he's in the same chair on the other show, right?

I mean, is he more, does he lean into the sort of, inherent silliness of his presence, right? Yeah, that is what I found so interesting in the course of reporting this piece. I anticipated, because if you go to TNT and you say, hey, you know, quite obviously this Tuesday show is meant, you know, as a new guard program, you're going to push the studio show forward.

But you have Shaq on it, and Shaq is quite routinely dunked on by Candace Parker and to a lesser extent, doing late, but sometimes Wayne Lee as well. I expected them to be like very guarded about it, to be very protective of Shaq. And in fact, it was the opposite. It was, no, no, we're going to put Shaq on the tea

and feel free to take your wax at him because we do too. And that's all by design. And I think, like, Shaq is sort of a really unique bridge in that way because you're right, like on the regular Thursday show, he's of a piece. They're all sort of the same. They're all sort of clowning on each other

and having a good time. On the Tuesday show with Candace and Dway, where they're much more serious and much more analytical and thoughtful about basketball, He still serves that role, but he's the only one doing it as opposed to everybody doing it. And somehow it works better that way because you do sort of need that comedic relief when you have other people who are analyzing the game in a much more sober way. I think you're absolutely right. And I think whenever people post the videos of Shaq getting dunked on by Candace Parker, they actually do miss that very important point.

We've now had years of studio shows on ESPN that are about smart, young, current people using analytics to explain. explain and how much they love basketball. It doesn't exactly work all the time, right? Sometimes that's really boring. But if you have youngish, anecdotically minded people going against determinantly not watching basketball, old guy, that's the show.

That's not a bug of the show. That's the show. And do the producers realize this, right? If people on NBA Twitter don't, they know that that is why people are tuning in, right? Oh, for sure. Yeah, I mean, this is something that, again, I anticipated there would be some pushback or some defensiveness or they try to spin it. And it was quite the opposite.

Turner is well aware of the role that Shaq plays on that show. And by the way, so is Shaq. Like when I talked to Shaq about this, I mean, it took me forever to get Shaq on the phone because he's Shaq, right? Like, it was like, you know, Shaq will call you when Shaq gets around to it. And he called me during a game that he was supposed to be watching, like completely blew off. But as we were talking about it, and I said, you know, like, Candace really put you on skates a number of times. I mean, when she's explaining to you why they shouldn't lower the rim in the WNBA or why post-ups don't work as opposed to, you know, ball movement and shooting threes in today's NBA. And he just sort of laughed it off and said, yeah, I'm cool with that.

I mean, Candace is amazing. She makes fun of me all the time and it makes the show work. And yeah, far from, you know, avoiding it, they all to a person lean. into it. I was, for some reason, I was struck watching the Jazz Grizzlies game last night, and the studio show and the announce team kept using the old Rust versus Rest adage to, to, you know, talk about who was more prepared for the game. And there's not a straight parallel to the two, to the studio shows at all, but I kept,

I kept thinking about the way that there's these two different philosophies, I guess, the two shows embody, whether it's like, you know, content versus comfort or something like, that. But there is like old sportscasters always devolve or evolve into a place of where comfort, familiarity is the most important thing that they provide for us. Right. I mean, old, old football announcers don't even need to say words. They just need to like have the tone of their voice broadcast over the games. And it's interesting that one, that the Thursday show is leaned into that, like you said, they're self-aware. They know what they're there to provide, right? but the decision to have a Tuesday show that is different makes all the sense in the world,

as you describe in the piece. But it's also kind of surprising. Most shows, most networks stick with, you know, what they're good at. And I guess this all, I guess what I want to know is, is as well as they, I mean, they complement each other, but is there any in-house tension on the executive side? Do they see this as one eventually is going to displace the other? Or is, are they just pieces of, you know, the same puzzle? Yeah, I think there's a wink and a nod there, right?

I mean, because we all, we're watching the show or shows. And so you're right, we've seen the established group forever. We all know what it is. It's very much entertainment-based. They make no bones about that. They don't pretend that you're going to get, you know, a super information dump from these guys, especially when they're admitting that they fell asleep during a game. And yet, the Tuesday show quite obviously signals, you know, a different path, eventually.

I mean, it's happening in real time as we're watching it. But eventually, and, you know, Kenny and Charles and Shaq, those guys will be there in that capacity as long as they want to be. But we can see with the Tuesday show that they're signaling a shift, that eventually that there'll be, you know, there's always going to be someone in that shack seat. If it's not Shaq, it'll be somebody else who you could have a good time with. But, you know, they're trying to, I think, move it forward. And the interesting thing is they're doing this in real time. They're sort of experimenting on the fly because they don't really have any real conversation. competition, right? I mean, the jump exists and the jump is excellent, but the jump is in,

you know, a proper studio show pre and post game, halftime, that component. The ESPN pre-post halftime show is sort of a non-entity now. So T&T has this ability in this space where they can just tinker with this format and at least this year in this first one, because technically the Tuesday show launched last year, but because of COVID, it was fits and starts and it didn't really get much attention. This year, I thought it was a fantastic compliment to Thursday, and eventually you could very much see it becoming, you know, if not the competition, the replacement for. One thing you get at in your piece gone's is who is sports television for in 2021? You know, I think all three of us, because we're all kind of old, have lived through this era

where sports TV is not produced for people that even know what the low post is. You know, Sports TV is produced on the level of mass entertainment for like at like the level of Alf or you know, cheers or something like that. They just want everybody to watch. They don't want to offend anybody, you know, they don't want anybody to watch and go,

I don't know what that analytic means. I have no idea because I'm out of here. They want it to be incredibly broad. Do you see as you consume basketball on studio shows or broadcasts any sort of analytics, sort of a nod toward the younger generation that's on NBA, Twitter creeping in? Yeah, I think that's a little bit of what they're trying to. I mean, Candace very, very much fills that role on a Tuesday when she's, you know, really breaking down the nuance as a basketball. And that's something I enjoy as a basketball fan. But the more I

reported the piece and the more I thought about it, because initially it was born from just her, you know, schooling Shaq on a pretty regular basis. And Shaq being happy to get schooled. But he was happy to get schooled in the service of the entertainment that you're talking about, Ryan. And The more I thought about it, like, there's a zillion places where all of us go to get the, you know, the smart take on basketball, the nerd take on basketball. I recommend for everybody listening to Ringer.com. We've got some really good ones. But when you're watching that show, do I really need that breakdown? Or am I enjoying the show because of the interplay between Shaq and Kenny and Charles and Ernie?

Right. I mean, they're all having a good time. They're all entertaining. They realize that it's a TV show. And ultimately, how much information can they download to all of us? and what five minutes at half time. You mentioned that, you know, this is the first season

that the Tuesday show has really gotten the exposure of, you know, of a big time, you know, pre-post game show. Certainly the playoffs are an even greater amount of exposure, right? I mean, I can speak for myself and saying that like, not only am I watching almost every minute of every, you know,

TNT studio show, but even for those of us that do pay more attention to analytics and stuff, you lean on those shows, shows for sort of conversational guidance. You know, this is what people are going to be talking about the next day. It's very, it's old fashioned, but like they, even if you disagree with them, kind of identify the big topics of conversation.

Have you gotten a sense at all just from Twitter from talking to people about how they're being received, you know, now that basketball is really important? Yeah, I mean, I think, I think you're right that like we all pay more attention when the playoffs arrive, especially because, and this was something that I touched. on in the piece as well. I think what the Thursday show is really excellent at, and you just touched on it there, David, the storylines, what you're going to be talking about, they're always good at that. I mean, that's what they've made an entire career on. And then, you know, when you're in the middle of the season or towards the end of the season, when, you know, it's game 65, 67 in a normal

82 game season, and we pretty much know where the playoffs are going to be slotted and which teams are going to be where. And you're just kind of like riding out injury news and every everybody's bored as hell and waiting for the postseason to come along. In those dog days, the Thursday show shines because then you just do need somebody to get you through Wizards Clippers. Totally. Can we spend another moment on Shaquille O'Neal and Charles Barkley and the kind of archetype of the former player who is just post-criticism?

Like, they're going to get dragged on Twitter every couple of days and it just doesn't matter. Who else is in this category? Like Terry Bradshaw, I think, in the NFL. has probably reached this Nirvana stage. It's a select group, and you're 100% right. I mean, you know, the other day when LeBron gets outed for going to a party and everybody goes, oh, the NBA, the NBA isn't going to do anything here. They're not going to find them.

They're not going to suspend them, even though any other player that would happen to. What happens? Charles Barkley goes out and says exactly what everybody is thinking and says the NBA doesn't have the balls to suspend him. And somehow, like, for the last, what, 20 years that Charles has been doing this, they just routinely keep themselves relevant by like saying these sort of zeitgeisty on the nose things

that also run really close to the lineup is this permissible and continually like uncancellable. We talk about cancel culture all the time. Those guys will be here as long as they want to be. Speaking of keeping themselves relevant, I think most listeners of the show will probably remember Shaq calling out Donovan Mitchell post game.

long ago and saying he didn't think what he had what it takes to uh to to to be a you know superstar um it's i i you know i think everybody sort of had the same reaction which is like i don't think this is out of bounds is certainly not from you know shekeel o'neal but it just the tone and the delivery and the timing just made it seem just like in in really bad taste like it just seemed like the sort of thing that or i mean part of it's just shocking you wouldn't expect shack to have done it in that moment But what do you think the goal was there? Again, I think what they're really good at, you know,

and this is of a piece with what we've discussed about them just being good entertainers. And I mentioned this in the story as well. On the Tuesday show, what Shaq is good out, and I think he gets it, you know, obviously from the Thursday group is putting the quarter in, winding everybody up, you know, and letting them go. And that's what that is. Like when he's doing it. Now, sometimes he does it intentionally.

I anticipate that the Donovan Mitchell one was unintentional. But those guys on Thursday are all good at it. I mean, you can go back to, you know, when they derided the Warriors as nothing but a jump shooting team even after they had won a championship or had the temerity. Shack, of all people, had the temerity to decry star stacking when he had played for the Lakers. I mean, these are things that we all laugh about, right, where they're being sort of trolley. But what happens? I mean, they get the conversation going. We all end up talking about Shaq going, oh, Donovan Mitchell doesn't have what it takes to win.

after he won a game. I mean, it's just absurd, but also it drives the conversation. Yeah. And I think another point you got to in the piece was it's not scripted on TNT, which is kind of amazing for studio shows. I remember when the Daryl Morey Hong Kong thing went down. I just had they happened to be doing an event out here. I was talking to Ernie Johnson. He's like, we didn't have a meeting before the show where we talked about what we were going to say. Now think about that. Yeah. Like a ringer podcast probably would have required a meeting. Like, okay, where are we going here? Let's make sure we're saying what we want to say.

But they don't have a script. No, it's wild. I mean, every TV show or radio show or podcast I've ever done has always had a script. I'm sure that you had an extensive one for this program. Yeah, well, we're more in the inside the NBA. But that's just laziness out of anything. Anyway, go ahead, please. No, but it's very unusual.

I mean, for people who don't understand how the broadcasting sausage gets made, every other studio show that you would talk to, you know, my wife is a host for NFL network. Her outline is extremely long. Bill Simmons, our boss talked about this all the time when he was doing the NBA show for ESPN, how it was like very studied and like pre-organized where it'd be like, you know, host opens up, toss to the next analyst who has 30 seconds, toss to the next analyst 30 seconds, and then commercial break. I mean, that's just how it usually goes.

And with these guys, it's not that at all. it's wide open. I'm going to come to you and you're going to say this. And then I'm going to come to you and you're going to make this point. That is all plotted out on a lot of studio shows before it starts. And then this case, no breaks, no seatbelts. Hyper scripted for everybody else for this one, seat of the pants, too. And it was something that I was personally interested in because, you know,

I like to know about media machinations. But I was very surprised because I was watching the show one night. And I was like, man, it really sounds like they're seeing these highlights. for the first time in real time. And I thought I would ask, and I thought again that they would obfuscate or spin, and they go, oh, yeah, no. They don't watch the games or the highlights

until they're on in front of them to get a more organic reaction, which is very, very unusual. Yeah, I mean, it's also really brave, right? I mean, to go out there with that sort of lack of preparation, I think most shows over-prepared just to avoid any side. But basically to avoid the, well, what makes that show work so well, right?

To avoid the sort of humanity that comes across in their reactions. Is that you're talking about, you know, media machinations? Is that, I mean, you report a lot of this in your piece, talking about how the shows, you know, the people were selected and came together and talked to some of the Turner executives. But for the people listening, what was your, what's your important? about how they feel about the Tuesday show. I know they love the Tuesday show, but is it a source of pride that they were able to sort of stake out this different territory? Is it a,

you know, how are they defining these, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, different other people in there in their minds. Like, what's the, what's the, what's the, what's the, what's the, what's the, what's the, what's the, what's the, uh, I think officially, uh, they'll tell you that, you know, they think it's a wonderful compliment to the Thursday show. Uh, they, they, everybody, nobody would, would say on the record, oh, of course, this is, you know, the air apparent to the Thursday show. But unofficially, it very much looks like they've hit on something, right? That eventually Ernie and out, now who knows?

I mean, Ernie is in his 60s. Kenny and Charles are in their mid to late 50s. They've got plenty of time here in a world where, you know, Marv Albert is still broadcasting, although, you know, Godspeed to Marv, he's leaving. And Hughie Brown, timeless, Hughie will be calling games for the rest of his life. Who knows how much longer they could go, probably for quite some time. But I do believe that they, if they don't think that they found a successor specific with this group. I think that they found a model in that, oh, this is sort of a good mix to sort of update this studio show that has been so successful for them for the last 20 years.

I mean, these are Hall of Fame broadcasters who have been minted many times over, right? And now, what do you do? How do you up that? Well, this is a really interesting way to modernize it. And I think that they believe that they found something interesting and new. Yeah, and there's potentially a scenario, right, where it's not like the Thursday cast is all going to necessarily walk out at the door on the same day. Right. You know, and you could see certain, you know, one person replace another person, replace another person, which is typically happens on studio shows.

Yeah, I mean, you know, they could go on waves. Certainly, like, Dwayne Wade is a guy that everybody was talking about, oh, Dwayne could be on television if he wants to be. But I think the more interesting component here is like the rise of Candace Parker, who is just an absolute superstar. are, I mean, like, you know, Dwayne Wade is Dwayne Wade. And you see the guys when he talks to current players get giddy, right? Because he's sort of, he's the guy, like when Dwayne was playing, he would get giddy about or angry about talking to Charles or Kenny or Shaq because those were the guys that he looked up to when he played.

Now you see the same thing with the younger players with Dway. But Candace is somebody who, you know, if you're watching the WNBA, you know. But to bring her into the NBA mix and just like, She's so smooth on camera. She's so bright. And also she can do the funny bit. She can do the put shack on skates or dunk on shack. I mean, she's extremely versatile.

And I think with Candice, they really hit on something that maybe people didn't expect. I guess to bring this thing full circle and maybe take off your reporter hat here for a minute, we touch on this in the beginning. But like, what do you think, if you were building your own studio show, who would you be drafting from these two. Like what do you, or what kind of show would you build? What do you think that people are looking for right now? Yeah, I mean, that's interesting. I mean, like, we've had 20 years of the Thursday show, and it's obviously very successful, and I'm a fan of that show, but it definitely needed some updating. So if you're asking me, like, who I like best of that group, I mean,

the Thursday group is fantastic, but I'm a massive Candace Parker. I think she just has that mix of, hey, I understand the modern MBA. I can school you on that. I can also have a great, a great time and laugh. And also I'm going to point out the absurdities of things that are set on camera by professional basketball players, that she acts, and this is the point I tried to make in the piece, she acts as our avatar, right? When I'm screaming at my television, Shaq, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Before I was doing it alone, now she's doing it for me.

So she's fantastic. And I think Lefko, because we haven't really talked about him either, he's very good in the same way that Ernie is very good in that he doesn't get in the way. He moves the ball around and he's throwing lobs all day long and letting him hammer him home. Pass first point guard. Absolutely. If I'm going to draft David, I'm going to take the TNT Thursday show. I'm just going to take it and I'm going to high five all the way to the bank.

I love everybody on Tuesday. I wish them to be absolutely the best, but I'm just going to, we're going to win. We're going to win the rating. You're going to win everything. by the way we'll close here guns left co you were talking to him and he was trying to think of the rush more of all time sports studio shows he got three out of four yeah he got sports center he got inside the NBA he got college game day on ESPN I can give him number four Fox NFL Sunday 20 plus years largely the exact same cast let us say about the same amount of attention paid to modern football as inside the NBA is paying attention to modern basketball. And same thing. High five,

it all the way of the bag, baby. There we go. We did it. You know, why would we change this? Yeah, it's the same model. And,

you know, I think he might have even, because he said, you know, in the course of the, I'll come up with one later and, you know, I think he might have even

brought that one up later, but it was just too funny for him to come up with a three-man Mount Rushmore. But you're right. The NFL, the Fox version, there's a format. When you,

when you find, a group with good chemistry, the rest of it, the particulars of whatever sport you're covering is almost incidental. Would you like to hang out with us and guess the strained pun headline as long as you're here? Oh, absolutely. I'm honest. Yes. There we go. It's time for David Shoemaker and John Gonzalez's guest's The Strain Pun headline. Last Friday's headline about reviving a fading street in Sydney, Australia was Oxford Coma. Oxford Coma. Today's headline comes from Will Holland. It's from the New York Times. I'll give you guys a little bit. The Times reports that five counties in eastern Oregon have voted to secede from Oregon. And here's the kicker.

These five counties want to become part of Idaho. Why? I don't know. They want to become part of Idaho. What was the New York Times' strained pun headline? Is it my own private Idaho? That's the only thing is my own private Idaho. Our own private Idaho, something like that. Their own private Idaho, yes. Again. All right. I'm sorry.

First time on the show when we nailed it. Yeah, I was about to say, you guys are like the Thursday inside the NBA. Got this thing on lockdown. John Gonzalez's a story, the future of the NBA on T&T is on the ringer right now. You're going to need to read everything he writes during the playoffs. Though if it's about Philly Sports, viewer discretion is advised. He is David Schuemaker, out bride Curtis production magic by Erica Servantes. David, we're back Friday to beam you into the holiday weekend by talking UFOs with Gideon Lewis Krause,

who just wrote a big piece about them in The New Yorker, plus more lukewarm takes about the media. See you then, bud. See you later, Ryan.