The Prestige TV Podcast - '1923' Midseason Check-in

Episode Date: January 11, 2023

Mal and Ben get together to discuss the first four episodes of '1923,' Taylor Sheridan's prequel to the popular 'Yellowstone' series. They begin by sharing their overall impressions of the show, and remark at Sheridan's voluminous amount of quality programming. Next, they dive into the excellence of stars Harrison Ford and Helen Mirren, and the methods in which they were cast for the series (12:00). Then, they talk about the character elements that surprised them, their favorite scenes and story lines, and speculate about the identity of John Dutton's father (22:16). They end the pod by revealing their awards, and final thoughts on the series so far (44:21). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Ben Lindbergh Associate Producer: Chris Sutton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

An Instagram post gets an unexpected boost. A TikTok catches in the algorithm. Sometimes that's all it takes to launch someone into internet fame. But then what? This Blue Up is a new podcast documentary that reveals how social media stardom is made. It's a different kind of fame. That's not always as glamorous as it looks. From Spotify and the Ringer Podcast Network, I'm Melissa Bereznak.

You can listen to This Blue Up on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello! Oh, and welcome to the Prestige TV podcast here on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin. Joining me today to sip whiskey and read Aunt Kara's letters loud. It's Ben Limburg. Mal, we have known each other for almost nine years. We have worked closely together for multiple companies.

We have visited each other's homes. We have met each other's pets and spouses. I was at your wedding. You were at my wedding. But until now, we had never podcasted together about the Yellowstone universe. And I feel like our entire relationship has been building up to this. I completely agree. Something was missing.

We didn't know what. Yeah. But now, right here, as we boot up this Zoom at last, it is clear. Life's complete. I guess we should both retire after this, probably. Unless we have to do more pods about the Yellowstone universe. Have to. I'd say get to.

Dare to dream, Ben. In case anyone can't tell, we are here today to chat about the star-studded spin-off, 1923, a Yellowstone origin story. Ben, before we saddle our horses and ready for the ranch war, some quick programming reminders, as always, HBO's The Last of Us, begins this Sunday, January 15th, and a ringer-verse takeover is coming to the prestige feed. Van Leithen and Charles Holmes will be with you on Sunday night to share their instant reaction to the premiere. Joanna Robinson and I will be with you midweek for our deep dive. Check out those pods.

Check out the Ringerverse and everything we're up to over there if you haven't yet, including Mr. Benjamin Limburg's video game experts guide to the Last of Us TV universe, which is coming for you later this week on both the Ringiverse and Theringer.com. What a great website. I will get you ready. I'll get you hyped. Speaking of hype. It's back to Montana. Yes.

to chat about Taylor Sheridan's newest Yellowstone spinoff. We are four episodes deep into 1923, episode four, titled War and the Turquoise Tide. I mean, we can do an entire podcast on the episode names for 1923 at Yellowstone. aired on Sunday. So the show is now at the halfway mark. Season one's going to be eight episodes. Season two is also not too far away, which is exciting. nothing is ever too far away in the Yellowstone universe.

There's always a new show just around the corner. But outrageously, on the Yellowstone Empire. It's true, Ben. Outrageously, we have to wait. We have to wait a few weeks. We're on a break until the February return for the second half of season one of 1923. So it felt like the perfect time. The perfect time for a quick check-in on the series so far.

I'll just give a quick blanket spoiler warning. Obviously, we're going to be talking about all four episodes of 1923 to date. Also, anything that happened in 1883 or, Yellowstone might come up today. If it is a Taylor Sheridan show where someone has ever uttered the word train station or cattle or Montana or land, it might come up today. Yeah. You've been warned. No Tulsa King spoilers, probably. Probably. Will Mayor of Kingsdown come up? Who can say? All right, Ben. Let's start with just a very quick acclimating fandom snapshot.

What is your relationship to the Taylor Sheridan Yellowstone Expanded Universe? It's a warm one. My home is on the range. As you may remember, I used to watch a show called Longmire about an old school sheriff

in present-day Wyoming, which ran for six seasons on A&E and Netflix. And when that show ended in late 2017, there was a hole in my heart that could only be filled by horses and wide open spaces and way more murders than you'd think there could possibly be in a sparsely populated region of the country. And then mere months later, the universe supplied us with Yellowstone. And that hole in my heart was filled. And in the most recent episode of Yellowstone, young John says to Young Rip,

you are committing yourself to this ranch for the rest of life. And this ranch is committing itself to you. You will have a home till the day you die or this ranch is no more. That is my relationship to the Yellowstone Expanded University. Wow. Wow. It's my home. Are there some storylines and characters that have to be taken to the train station from time to time? Absolutely. But when you wear the brands, you ride for the brand. So that brand, it's not just on your chest. It's actually on your heart. No. It's on your soul.

Yeah. It's inside the skin and it's also on the exterior. Oh, I feel similarly. I just. can't get enough of Yellowstone. Even when I watch an episode and I'm like, that was a really genuinely confounding hour of TV. It's still my favorite hour of the week. And the rapidly expanding TV streaming landscape where Taylor Sheridan is just churning out, spin off after spin off, origin story after origin story. You wrote a piece recently. We got a little chuckle. You wrote a larger piece about prequels and we got to chuckle out of the framing of 1923 as the sequel to the prequel, which is really something you can only say when you're making a new show basically

every 17 days. And I for one am delighted that we have this new show because it's been a blast. What is your overall impression of 1923 through four episodes, both the show itself, but also how it compares to your feelings about 1883 and Yellowstone proper? So I was worried after the premiere, which just had so many moving parts that were sort of inartfully crammed together. There was a lot going on. But it's gotten stronger with each episode. And I'd say that the most recent episode was so strong that I'm now just in complete withdrawal like you. I'm going to really miss this series or any Yellowstone Sheridan series for the next month.

And also, I appreciate that this show is taking some pretty big swings in structure and scope and setting. Taylor Sheridan did an interview last month with deadline, which was just flex after flex after flex. I will probably quote from it a couple times. And he said I would argue that 1883 was the most expensive first season of a TV show ever made. This was much more expensive, much more expensive. Something like 22 million an episode. He repeated that much more expensive. So I don't know how much of the 22 million is Harrison Ford and Helen Mirren's salaries.

They should be making a lot. But they also shot this thing in South Africa and Kenya and Tanzania and Malta. And between that and the three different storylines, each with its own lead character or characters, not to mention the World War I flashbacks, there's just a lot happening here. And it doesn't always work. But I think you have to hand it to Sheridan for stretching himself when he's under pressure to keep the assembly line rolling and pump out a new show every month, working on several at the same time. The fact that he didn't really just kind of take the layup here, he's going for it.

Is he under pressure? I mean, it almost seems to be easy for him, perhaps too easy. I am absolutely like. He thrives under pressure. Yeah, I'm in awe of the output. It's just, especially in the context of the present day streaming landscape where we're going the other direction with most shows, even though the larger, like, IP expansion is obviously very much of a piece with the wider trend. Typically now it's going to be a year and a half or two years. seasons of a show. And I think that's actually part of why it feels genuinely jarring to have a

mid-season break for Yellowstone in 1923. It's like, I don't know how to spend a Sunday night now if I'm not watching some new installment. I feel similarly about the opening, the opening stretch of 1923. The first episode, it was a lot. It was a lot to digest. It was a lot to process. I think too because we are Yellowstone enthusiasts, there's just a natural inclination to try to figure out in real time as you're watching the family tree and try to process and understand all of the connections. But as soon as episode two came around,

and then I think subsequently this has been truer and truer each week, the show has, I don't know if it actually has settled into its rhythm or we're just now more acclimated and accustomed to what that rhythm is, but understanding who the primary players are in each of those three storylines. and then crucially understanding how those storylines are going to relate not only to each other inside of 1923. And this is, of course, the singular proposition of the show, but how they will have unfurled from what we watched in 1883 and eventually set up what we've spent five seasons watching in Yellowstone. It's an interesting puzzle piece. And I think that it really is to the show's credit that it's operating at like on the one hand there's a lot going on.

but it's operating at a pretty luxurious pace inside of each hour where it is really like lingering and taking its time and not worrying about how all of those pieces will connect. Like this will come up more than once today, I think, but we still don't definitively know who John Dunton, Kevin Costner's father is. And like how exactly this family tree connects. Who's the father?

Yeah. I think there are three possibilities based on what we've seen so far. We'll get into that. But there are major elements of the story that haven't really been fleshed out yet, right? I mean, we're a quarter of the way through this series and half of the way through this season, which was initially supposed to be a one-season show. And then I think Sheridan realized that at some point, I can't wrap this up. I can't do this justice.

And of course, the powers that be are happy to have more Taylor Sheridan. So it's even if they're pretty pricey, as long as he can keep pumping them out, they will keep putting them on their streaming service. But we have major characters here who have not crossed paths, some who have barely been introduced. So there really is a lot of throat clearing, I guess you could say, or groundwork laying that all of this hasn't even quite come together yet. So I'm excited to see what happens and what heights the show can reach when it does. Me as well. In episode four, this midseason mark, ended with a little bit of a timeline twist where this letter that we thought,

was just making its way to Spencer was already with him. And this three-month gap that allows these timelines now to coalesce and for Spencer to make his way across the ocean and to Montana. And I don't know if we'll spend four episodes with him on the open sea or if we'll spend one episode with him on the open sea and then he'll be back on a ranch. Shooting sharks, apparently. I can't wait to talk about the sharks. but Spencer is heading back to the ranch. And that's like the key aligning of these major Dutton-centric plot points that was genuinely a really fun thing to see click into place at the end of episode four. But before we chat a little bit more about some of those storylines, you know, you mentioned the price point, you mentioned the cast.

I think we would be remiss if we didn't spend a minute on this star-studded excursion because I don't think we could say out loud enough. Harrison Ford and Helen Mirren are starring in 1923, a Yellowstone Origin Story. This is just an incredible thing that's happening on our TVs right now. Has it met your expectations? Has it lived up to the hype in that respect? I think Helen Mirren has probably been the highlight of the series so far. We will get into that when we hand out some awards potentially later. I've enjoyed the dynamic between them.

I'm here for Helen Marion and Harrison Ford discussing shaving armpit hair and pubic hair. Same. from that same love to hear Harrison Ford's thoughts off personal grooming just really tender really considerate just a great great relationship between these two just an old married couple and I got to just quote Taylor Sheridan was asked in that deadline interview how he landed Harrison Ford for this cast so he says I called him and said come down to my ranch and he flew down I did the same with Helen so that's the power dynamic here that's remarkable that's how Taylor Sheridan works he calls you, he summons you, and you come down to his ranch.

If you're Harrison Ford, you probably fly yourself. Fly yourself. Yeah. He continues. He flew down. I said, we're going to do this thing together. So he's just dictating terms to Harrison Ford. He goes, can I read a script? I said, you can when it's written, but it ain't written yet. And you got to commit to it now. I need to know who I'm writing for. I'm done wondering who I'm writing for. And I have to go try to chase the person I had in my mind. I can't get the person because they're doing some fucking Netflix show. I don't do that shit anymore. So are you going to do it or are you going to watch Chris Cooper do the next great thing? What do you want to do? I poured about two bottles of wine down him. He said yes. I got him on the

plane as fast as I could close the deal and said, send me the next one. Then came Helen and same thing. Have a glass of wine. Just incredible. This deadline interview. Okay. Now I hope he wasn't flying himself if he had two Bob his wine, that's concerning. Hopefully he had a designated pilot for that flight. Yeah, he has been known to crash before. So we need it back for season two and many other projects. But just a command performance by Taylor Sheridan before he even wrote this show to line up these heavy hitters for the cast.

There was a little bonus featureette that paired with the premiere that you can find on Paramount Plus. And a lot of it is the other members of the cast talking about how they can't believe they get to make the show with Harrison Ford and Helen Mirren and how. cool. It isn't enough fun it is. But there's a really fun and charming aspect of it that is Harrison Ford and Helen Mirren talking about each other and the joy of reuniting and getting to work together decades after they had previously in their career. And I do think, I mean, these are two of the great celebrities of the stars in the world. Like, again, we cannot overstate how remarkable it is

there on this show. But they clearly have this like tenderness toward each other. And obviously, I think that like one of the things I love about 1923 so far and more broadly the Yellowstone universe is there is this like real ostentatiousness to so much of it but also this this gentleness and this quietness and it is such a unique blend of like energy and vibe and intent and I think you feel it a lot in the relationship between Jacob and Kara in their marriage in how they discuss the roles that they share and that other members of their family. inside of the Dutton household, how they think about their role across the ranch and across Montana. With scenes when they're in bed together talking about their wedding night or like you

already mentioned the shaving, it is, I'm loving the ranch more. I'm just absolutely astounded that I haven't already said the words Spencer Dutton 47 times today because I'm just absolutely smitten. Spencer is a 10 out of 10 notes for me. Yes, I agree. But I could just spend the whole hour of watching Harrison Ford and Helen Mirren together. And you noted this to me, Ben, in Slack when we were just trading slacks with each other about how much we enjoyed episode four in particular, that Harrison Ford's character, Jacob, is like barely in. What I think was irrefutably the best and most exciting episode of the season. And I responded to you and I said, I loved it because it tapped into some of my favorite Harrison Ford nostalgia, which is.

him healing and recovering in bed in witness, one of my favorite movies of all time. Yes. Yeah, he does a great job of lying there bandaged, just hoarsely barking out orders. It's great. It's exceptional. Just gave Helen time to cook, which was great as well because she kind of takes his place, which maybe we'll talk about. But it's a dynamic we don't exactly get in Yellowstone. I mean, maybe we're getting it more and more with Beth and Rip, the one true pairing of Yellowstone. but we don't get that with John Dutton the third, right? Because he's been a widower for decades.

And here we're getting this picture of by all appearance is just a healthy, long-lasting relationship that has survived. Yeah, all sorts of adversity. Right. And equal partners in a way fulfilling different roles. But it just feels true. It feels fresh. And I think that's something I appreciate about this show.

And the prequels in general compared to Yellowstone proper, which like you, still enjoying, you know, even Latter-day Yellowstone, one of my favorite watches every week. I mean, this show is always sort of teetered between soapy and prestige, and the dial has definitely swung towards soapy. There's been a recalibration this season toward the soap. Yeah, the suns are everywhere. Yes. Perhaps quintessently, we've not covered Yellowstone on the prestige TV podcast feed this year,

although I stand ready to serve if called upon. But I enjoy Yellowstone on a different level, even when it's a new show. it's at its most preposterous. It's just that I think the prequels in 1923, they benefit in a couple of ways in comparison to the flagship show. Because first of all, whenever a show is a massive success, as Yellowstone still is, there's pressure to sustain it, which inevitably means recycling or refusing to resolve certain storylines.

So, you know, how many enemies can the Dutton's plausibly kill and toss off the side of the road? How many times can Jamie's loyalties change? how many attacks can Beth survive? How many feuds can she and Jamie have without killing each other? It seems like maybe not that many more. Very recently, Beth hit Jamie in the head with the brick and he's just fine. Yeah. And with the prequels, Sheridan gets to start over to some extent.

And I have the utmost respect for his capacity to pump out pages. But it probably hasn't helped to have him making like seven shows at once. So I would not be surprised if the percentage of screen time devoted. to just cowboys riding around and playing cards and doing horse tricks has increased over the course of those several seasons. We're up to like 10 minutes an episode. Taylor's press for time. He's got to fill those minutes somehow, I guess. It's like in college when I had to hit a certain page count with a paper. And I just, you know, slightly increase the size of the periods or the spacing between lines. Yeah. Yeah. Hitting my word count is no longer a problem for me now.

Right. I was just going to say, wait, there was a time in your life where you're You can have enough words. Yes. I can't bathe them. I just, I think the prequels, because they come with some pressure, obviously, but they don't have the baggage of several previous seasons. They're just more focused and fresh and maybe ambitious at this stage. And after you've been telling a story with the same characters in the same place for several

seasons, it has to be energizing for Sheridan, too, to create new characters and get to dive into a different time period as the history buff, he seems to. be. So you can sort of feel the energy of the cast and it's mirrored in our energy as spectators too. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. Like obviously part of the initial proposition of Yellowstone was centering in and focusing in on this old west aesthetic and American ideal of like the pursuit of a certain kind of life in a modern day context. And that tension is present in every single episode of Yellowstone still, but I think inarguably exploring that when you are in the past, like just hums at a different frequency. I, you know, I loved 1883. And I will say when I,

when I booted it up to watch it for the first time, I didn't actually really know that the whole show was going to be about the journey to what we now know is the Yellowstone Dunn Ranch, that it was in essence an Oregon Trail show. And so that was a different thing entirely, obviously. But 1923 is, if you strip it down, the same show in terms of its central focus and interest, which is how did the Dutton's get and build this thing and how will they stop somebody from trying to take it away? Like, that's what every episode of both shows is about.

And I don't know if it's the time period, the setting. everything you just laid out, because obviously, like, the star power, that's present. I mean, Kevin Costner is the lead of Yellowstone. Like, it's not like Yellowstone lacks for star power. But I do think there's something about, even though this is going to be two seasons, and I still am hoping for a second season of 1883, by the way. I won't give up that dream. We're getting a spin-off. We don't take greedy. Make Solo two happen and keep making more seasons of 1883.

But there's something about that limited scope and knowing that we're zipping across. the Dutton timeline, and I assume we'll hit all of these key periods along the way, and that inside of that there's the opportunity to show us something specific and something seismic in terms of the legacy of this place and this family. In terms of the participants who contribute to whatever that seismic event is, I'm curious, we already talked about Harrison and Helen, like, what have been the biggest surprises for you on both the performer and character front in terms of who's had a bigger or smaller role than maybe you anticipated based on the trailers, the marketing and what you knew about the show heading in? What stood out on that front?

Bigger role than I expected? Probably the lions and leopards. Yeah, a lot of man eaters. More screen time than I anticipated and maybe more CGI than I anticipated involved in bringing them to life in certain scenes. Smaller role would have to be the married woman who wants to sleep with Spencer but then gets killed by leopards while she's trying to pee. I thought there were bigger things to start for her. Yeah. On a more serious note. I mean, we're all in on Spencer and we want more Spencer, right?

There's no quota of Spencer that we would be content with. So the fact that he has been as prominent a character as Jacob and Kara really to this point, I guess has slightly taken me by surprise, but it's a pleasant surprise. I couldn't agree more. I was not familiar with the work of one Brandon Scleaner before this show, but I'll be keeping tabs. He'll be following his career with great interests. I'll be keeping tabs from now on. I think my answer, I guess, is linked because Spencer is also the biggest surprise given how prominent he's been to the story and clearly how prominent he will be to the story moving forward.

I think relatedly, I was surprised to say goodbye to John Dutton to. James Badge Dale's character, Spencer's older brother, and the little boy from 1883, after only three episodes, I thought that he would have a much bigger role. So I guess that some of that will be going to his son, Jack, in place of him. And obviously, a lot of the Tim McGrath-Hill, you know, their kids in the next generation focus is going to be the Spencer of it all. So I'm thrilled about that. I also, you know, Braun, we're a huge Game of Thrones fans, Ben, and seeing Jerome Flynn back on our screen on a Sunday, it's just, just feels right. I got to say, it just feels right. Banner,

his character, the main antagonist, I think it was clear that the Timothy Dalton and Jerome Flynn group was going to be the foe of this pursuit. But I didn't know that the banner would be this prominent in the story so far. He's really been one of the main players in one of the main storylines, and I guess let's get to those storylines. You noted that there are really three of them. It's the ranch, right? The three generations of Dutton's, this is where the bulk of the star power is concentrated. We have Spencer abroad, and then we have

the boarding school where we have Tiana Rainwater. So I'm curious, like, which of those storylines has gripped your interest most fully? Which one do you think is working best through four episodes? Any highlights or low lights for any of those that you want to hit. Definitely more riveted by the Africa storyline thus far. That's been the highlight for me. I was a little less interested in the nitty-gritty of the grazing disputes, I would say.

And you know nothing definitive is going to happen in Montana before Spencer gets there. And you know Harrison Ford's character isn't going to die even though he came close. And I fear for his life every time he, yeah, I fear for him every time he has to get on or off of a horse, let alone get shot multiple times and bleed out on the kitchen table. There's just, there's no Indiana Jones de-aging happening here. So I'm also much more into Spencer and Alex as a couple than Jack and Liz, I've got to say. So I'm very into the Africa storyline.

And as you said, the twist, I guess you could call it with the timing. I mean, the storylines are so disconnected in space that the disconnection in time didn't phase me. But it's a different look. I mean, it's literally different scenery, right? It's just a different vision of natural beauty, much different wildlife than we have been accustomed to on Yellowstone before. So I have enjoyed that very much. And I'm also looking to Spencer coming home. I think that's going to be great too.

And really, like, salute to the postal carriers who delivered that letter somehow because I can't see Spencer being that diligent about leaving forwarding addresses. Like, how do you know where he's going to be? How do you even address that letter? Like Spencer Dutton, the tree where he's hiding from lions somewhere in Africa. Spencer Dutton, the deserted beach where he's ravishing his fiancé. Spencer Dutton. That's where I'm heading. The guides who got mauled to death by wildlife.

How many stamps do you put on that letter? I don't know. But somehow it found its way to him. Send it to every doctor who might be treating a wound that. could cause gangrene. Maybe that's how it got to him. You know? Eventually, it'll find its way. Wait, we've been through a lot with Spencer already. What a rundown that was. The Spencer Alex storyline has been my favorite as well for so many different reasons. Have I mentioned that I love Spencer Dunton. I'm not sure if that's come up yet today, Ben. What a, what a delightful whirlwind romance this has been.

the number of places that these two lovebirds have already fucked through just a few episodes of courtship and television, really remarkable. And I'd like to just applaud their innovation and their thirst for life and for each other. Right. Just making do with your surroundings and your circumstances. If your first time has to be in a tree or your second time or whatever it was while you're hoping not to get eaten, fine. you know, make do with your surroundings. They made it work for them. Yeah. I didn't like seeing the harm befall the animals, and I want to make that clear. Of course.

That was painful and stressful and terrible. But Spencer taking to that tree and posting up after the elephant crash, the way that, I loved the letter scene, Alex, finding this stash of letters. that Spencer had from Kara over the years throughout the war and then this time period after the war that he still had not allowed himself to read. And the way that, you know, they asked each other earlier in episode four when they were in the water, like what did what did the war take from you? And, you know, Alex tells him about her brother, about a family member that she lost, and he talks about his soul. And like you mentioned already these flashbacks to the war that we've gotten. The way that Spencer, I think there's like a lot of mystery with his character

for us as viewers still, where we have a lot to learn about the particulars of his past, his life, the relationships with between him and other members of the family. But also he's a character who we pretty quickly understand completely. And I think that that's another Taylor Sheraton archetype, even though Spencer is very specific to this time, right? Like, do you, do you think that who's the closest corollary for you in Yellowstone proper to Spencer? Is it Casey? Is it Rip? I'd say Casey just because of the reluctance to inherit the mantle, right, and take on the ranch. And he almost has to be broken like a horse in order to take on the family business. So he's probably the closest analog just in terms of character development and possibly handsomeness. And this potential like marriage that becomes this center point in his life and a thing that he has to navigate in tandem with his

larger duties to some sort of family way. Spencer and Casey both have a little bit of the maister, the maister amen, you know, like love is the death of duty aspect to them that I just love in a character. And both military veterans too, right, who have some demons haunted by their past, right? Right, right. I think the rip, I agree with the Casey cop, I think the rip DNA that he has is this like already very present belief that he has instilled in us as viewers that he can

could pretty much achieve anything he needs to in a given scenario. Now, Casey definitely has that, too. He just in recent Yellowstone seasons has kind of receded from the central plot in a way where a lot of that has gone to rip in his stead. But yeah, Casey is, Casey is the comp there. I don't think this falls into any of the three storylines. This is an overarching, all-encompassing truth of 1923 and of these origin stories in general, I guess. And I just have to talk to you about it for a minute. I can't move forward until we do. Nothing could have prepared me, Ben. Nothing could have prepared me for Elsa. Returning, again, we said spoilers for 1883, 1923, all of it. Returning from the grave to continue to be the narrator of this new show.

When I plugged in my microphone to join you on this Zoom today. I didn't know how the beam of sunlight would dance upon your brow, Ben. How your voice would quiver when you mentioned Spencer's stare, how you channel into this podcast, your love of the land, the meaning of life, the mysteries of the universe. But Elsa probably did because she's all knowing. Yep. Death is every.

Why wouldn't we have Elsa on the show? I'm so happy to have her. Every time I hear her, I do a double-take. because I'm like, you've been dead for decades. How are you narrating the show? And he's saving it for one per episode. It's incredible. Yeah, she's just, she's won with the force at this point.

I have expected to appear to dispenser as a blue glowing ghost. It's just Sheridan liked the actress Isabel May so much that he cast her as Elsa without auditioning anyone else for the role. And then he put her in 1923, even though Elsa has been dead for 40 years. Just no obstacle. It's kind of like connective tissue, right? It kind of unifies the whole tapestry, the sweeping scope of the Yellowstone family, this American epic that she is somehow presiding. She's witnessing.

She's buried on the land. In contrast, tough to learn what befell James and Margaret after we left them, right? Especially speaking of, I mean, Margaret, tough to learn that after all she endured in 1883, that she died frozen in a snowdrift. Just not a great way to go out. If I can channel my inner Zuko here from the Avatar universe, that's a real, that's rough buddy. Bruttle! I do like, though, because I actually was surprised by the amount of clarity we got about endpoints for the 1883 crew. Like, it almost felt like in forced self-discipline.

I cannot go beyond this point with this group of characters. But, crucially, still enough room to play. Still some time in there to play, which I respect and love. Yes. Is there anything you want to say about the other two storylines, the Ranch War, or the boarding school been? Yeah. I mean, the boarding school is, it's a tough watch at times, right? I mean, I think it should be, obviously, given the subject matter.

And this is something that the actress also, you know, she was hesitant to take this on. Amina Nieves, she said she initially didn't audition for this part. because I almost didn't feel worthy enough to tell this story because it's so important. So I guess you could wonder whether Taylor Sheridan is the right person to tell that story. But it's just it's a totally siloed so far from the rest of the story. And also just a tough watch. I mean, you have to brace yourself for these scenes. Things have not gotten a lot better over the course.

You know, you kind of got the idea, I think, from the get-go. And things have just gotten worse and worse. The depiction of abuse has been unruly. Yeah. It's unclear how or whether or when her story will connect to the Dutton's or if it's just we're doing for Thomas Rainwater what we're doing for John Dutton III here and giving some sense of where he and his people came from, which, I mean, I applaud Taylor Sheridan for making space in this story for something else for people with a different experience. so it's not just solely focused on the Dutton's, but tonally, it's a shift from what we're accustomed to in Yellowstone or even in these prequels,

which can be pretty hard-bitten and cruel and dark at times, but this is maybe taking it to a different level. Right, absolutely, yeah. And she made her escape at the end of episode four, and we know as well that her grandmother has been looking for her, So when will they find each other? When will they be reunited? I would expect that to happen closer to the end of season two.

I think based on the mid-season trailer, we'll see a bit of a pursuit from the members of the church, from the members of the boarding school. In terms of the ranch and the ranch war, getting Timothy Dalton into the mix as the bank ruler, of Banners sheep versus cattle ranch war

you noted that Helen Merrin's character Kara took over moved into the seat literally and figuratively that Jacob would traditionally occupy in this fourth episode as he's healing as he's convalescing. We also have

Jack Dutton who is John's son and we have Zane who is really the corollary for Rip, right? He's the Mr. Fixer, assign him any task, loyal to the family in full for reasons that will presumably be revealed to us over time and certainly prone to violence where necessary to

defend and fight for the people who he loves. So we have, again, these kind of like archetypes who are connecting to familiar figures from the larger Yellowstone universe in the context of this tale. On the jack front. Okay. We mentioned already James Badgedale's

John Dutton, gone. Shot through the eyeball in episode three when Banners crew attacked on the open road. He was not with us for long. Jack was also wounded. His fiancee was also wounded

more seriously than he was. They had had a lovely night together in town. I have to say, I really enjoyed that stroll through town and looking at all of the like innovations. I like that he, I like that Sheridan is, I mean,

this show is to be clear, not Deadwood, but I like going for these little elements of when will technology and progress creep into this world that we have very like carefully built and cultivated. Also the other thing is like they've marketed the show by mentioning prohibition a lot.

That hasn't, I mean, there was a little bit of that in the promoting. mirror, but that hasn't been central in the way that I was anticipating to the show so far. So I'm expecting that that will be more present in the back half of the season. But on the jack front, here's my question for you. Who is Kevin Costner, John Dunton, the third's father? Here are the three possibilities I'm prepared to lay out for you.

Please tell me if I'm missing any. I would also like in the process of stating these possibilities to remind you and our listeners that the show is called 1923 because it takes place in 1923. And so I have some math questions about all of this. John Dutton, who died. Okay, that's one link. Kevin Costner is John Dutton the third. So there's, we're just John Dutton the second. That's who we need to find here.

Right. He's Jack, John Dutton the second. And his name is, his proper name is John and he just goes by Jack. That's possibility one. Right. And remember, we've seen John the second, right, on Yellowstone. This is Dabney Coleman, the aged John the second. So we're wondering who he is or who.

Keith first to him. Exactly. Okay. So that's one possibility. It's just that this is John, John's done in the second. He's in front of us already. We just don't know it because he's going by Jack.

Second possibility. We had a plot point in one of the letters in episode four about how they tried to have another kid. They lost the baby. Now she's too old. And I'm wondering if that's a misdirect. and that John may be gone, but perhaps his legacy will live on through John Dutton II yet to be born. That's possibility two. Possibility three, I wonder if John Dutton II will be Jack's son with Liz and they, he will just name him John Dutton the second despite having skipped a generation.

I don't know if that would make any sense. Right. What do you think? It's complicated. You'd think after we figured out the Targary. family tree. The Dutton's would be a cinch, but no, they're just all named John instead of egg on. But apparently even the actors don't understand how the characters are related because James Badge Dale, who plays the late John Sr., said last week, I have no idea if someone figures

it out, they can let me know we would talk about this all the time on set and we couldn't figure it out. So in addition to the candidates you mentioned, it could be Spencer, right? Could Spencer not have a son who is a John, who is named after his deceased younger brother? That would be the dream, I think. For our Yellowstone crew to descend from Spencer would be ideal in numerous respects. Here's my worry. Okay. Much like everybody went into 1883 talking about Tim McGrath and Faith Hill and then Elsa ended up being the main character of that show.

We went into this show talking about Harris. Ford and Helen Mirren and Spencer is like kind of being positioned as the main character of the show. I, my working theory is that for these spinoffs, the main character of the show is not going to make it out of the show. That we're going to be

spending time with a character who will ultimately not live very long and that that will actually be part of how these stories are really distinct from each other is that the person we're spending the most time with our primary point of view character to the central lens for that slice of the timeline. That person had to be the central focus because they were only

in that part of the timeline. That's my working theory. But that doesn't mean Spencer can't have a kid. No, because given the frequency with which he and Alex are having unprotected sex in various settings, she may already be carrying John the second by this point. I love it. I just, this is my leading candidate, I think, in part because Jack is just my least favorite main character of this series so far.

And I just, I don't think he has what it takes to be John Dutton, the third's direct ancestor. Also, Alex seems to have more Beth in her than Liz does thus far. No offense to Liz, but I'm getting more Beth energy from Alex. And also, we saw Liz get shot in a place that makes me wonder, could she have trouble conceiving? Who knows? And I just, I like the Spencer theory. He's so much more charismatic that I just, I like the Dutton line flowing through him. By the way, what a journey for Michelle Randolph from Cassie.

hometown date on Colton's season of the Bachelor to the Dutton Ranch where she is engaged to Jack Dutton. It's quite a journey. Astarnishing stuff. Yeah. So my waiting candidate, I'm going with Spencer. Spencer's my man. I think, yeah, he will be fruitful and multiply. Okay. I'm, I'm into it. I still have some math questions with all of this. He's an old man when we meet him, right? Doesn't he, he's like in his 90s or something? He's like 90. I forget if they cited an exact age, but he's up there. And that was a flashback, not all the way to. Yeah. It wasn't young John, but it was part of the way back.

So we'll have to do some arithmetic here. But either way, I mean, I think Jack's got to be too old, right? It has to be a kid of either Jack or Spencer, I would think. That's the thing. I think it has to be one of their kids. The idea of it being Jack, I mean, Jack is a pretty young. young character. But the question is, if it's Jack, then how soon can Kevin Costner be born?

I mean, he would have to be having that child, John III, much later in his life. That's really, that's really what eliminates him. Or maybe it's a second marriage. I don't know. Right. We'll have to figure it out. It's, yeah, the math is challenging here. And also, there may be intermediate prequels and spin-offs here, right?

because we've seen the possibility floated of a prequel set in the 40s or the 60s. And so then you would probably want to have a different character altogether, one would think. So what a rich web and tapestry they have woven across the seven generations. All right. We're going for it. Officially. We're saying Spencer's Kid. That's our hope, our dream, and our shared prediction. Yes. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound tersepetide may be able to help. Zepbound is. a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help

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Call 1-800-545-9-9 or visit Zepbounds.lily.com. Okay. Some rapid-fire awards here. Four episodes. We'll do four awards, Ben. MVP of the season so far. Kara for me. It's just, as we said,

kind of tough for Harrison that he was barely in the best episode, but that just made me want more Kara that just let her have more of the spotlight. I love the scene at the cattleman meeting where she just puts on a brave face and marches in and commands everyone's respect. Plus, I guess in that scene,

we learned that she's the one who had the idea to create the livestock police that later gives John and Casey the authority to do just whatever the hell they want and basically assassinate. all their enemies, right? And that seems to to flow from Kara. And I don't know what Kara would think of Beth, but I think Beth would probably respect and appreciate Kara. So even though Kara doesn't have kids, I think there's definitely some Kara in Beth. So just getting to see a female

member of the Dutton's who is a little more restrained and controlled than our beloved Beth, but just as forceful and commanding just as much authority and just as capable to see her shine, that has been a big pleasure of this series so far. We haven't yet seen Kara Dutton get into a 25-minute slug-fest fist fight with another woman in the yard, like badass. But I wouldn't roll it out. Yeah, Bozeman's going to hell already. The city folk are moving in. The ancestors of the tourists who gets into the fight with Beth.

is probably visiting Poseman now, so maybe they could tangle. I love it. My pick was also going to be Kara, but because I was torn ahead of 50-50 personal coin flip here and you pick Kara, I will pick Spencer. Yeah, that's fair. One of the true delights of the experience so far. All right, here's our next apparel of Ben. Favorite scream.

Now, I almost named this the Kara Dutton Most Ferocious Scream Award, because, of course, the series opens when they very prolonged Kara scream. We had another very protracted Kara scream in the most recent episode, but you already mentioned

the lion pursuit up the tree. We had a real Alex scream fest in episode three. We've gotten a lot of screams across many character sets. They linger.

They pulsate. Which one has haunted you? The most. Haven't we had multiple Kara screams? Because there's the one. We have. After she pulls the trigger and then there's the one where she is prematurely mourning Jacob, right, when she thinks that she's lost him.

And also the trigger one we got twice. Right. Much like the opening, Elsa seeded at 1883, we had traveled through time without completely realizing it and then got to revisit that moment in context later on. Yeah. I'm going to go with that one, the one that we see multiple times that starts the series and sets the tone. That's mine as well. You really knew what you were in for right away because of that. Next to perlative, time travel and Dutton, you get to pull one Yellowstone character out of Yellowstone proper and place them into 1923 because you think they would be more at home there. Who are you picking?

Yeah. Honestly, almost all of them would be more at home in 1920s. I mean, the whole show Yellowstone is about how this family and its way of life are anachronisms and they're just not made for this world. and civilization has passed them by. So I think they'd all be pretty happy to rewind a century or so. But probably no one more so than John himself, I suppose. Interesting. I'd like to see if every single one of Governor John Dutton, the third, season five, speeches about standing in the way of progress would pour over seamlessly word for word.

Yeah, I would think so. In 1923. Just go up to the guy who, pitching the washing machine and refrigeration and give them one of the the gov-dutton stump speeches on progress. Yes. The progressives who were pushing just prohibition probably would not be met with a warm reception from John. But I think the job would be better suited. I mean, smaller government back then, right? Pre-New Deal, probably just fewer meetings, less staff, fewer interviews, less media. He'd enjoy the job more at that time.

John Dutton, the third, Governor Dutton doesn't have meetings or staff anymore. No, not anymore. She insisted on eliminating both. Yes. Oh, my God. What a remarkable television program. My pick is Casey. I think that this is where Casey belongs.

And this is the time period in which Casey should have lived and thrived. I think for all the reasons you outlined earlier when you were making the comp between Spencer and Casey, like all of the elements that are present in Casey's soul and spirit and disposition that led you to make that. observation, they're on full display here in 1923. Spencer doesn't keep any of them in check. He gets to be his fullest, truest self, whether he is hunting man-eaters or eating Alex on the beach. It works no matter what if only Casey had been able to enjoy such freedom. I think Rip would also thrive in 1923. Absolutely. Though I kind of don't know how to think about RIP without thinking of a pickup truck,

but I'm willing to make the mental adjustment. You can kill as many wolves as you want back then. The environmentalists, probably much reduced. Yeah, that'd be tough for you. Those poor wolves. Protect the wolves at all costs. When I think of Casey, one of the things I always think of is peak Yellowstone fashion. Something that I will experience routinely watching Yellowstone is I'll see a jacket that

Casey's wearing. I'll say that looks like a great fucking jacket. I'll try to Google it. I'll realize it's like $600 and then I'll move on with my day. But that brings us to our final award, which is FitWatch. Some great fashion inside of 1923 is always the case in the Yellowstone universe. Whose threads? Whose 1923 drip are you digging the most so far? Hands down Spencer's unbuttoned cleavage bearing safari shirt. He's been doing his Dumbbell flies to prepare for this role. He's showing a lot of chess.

I mean, I think Alex has got a great fit out there, too. I mean, they're matching. They just, they look casual. They look prepared. They fit into the landscape. So I love the looks of both of them. You may resent that Spencer is wearing anything at any time. I prefer their wardrobes in episode four where they were both almost completely naked.

Right. But if he has to wear something, it might as well be something that's half unbuttoned. It's good. I like the way they've managed to put so much sweat and grime into his work wardrobe that it seems like it should actually, the fabric should be disintegrating on his very person. Yeah. No, no electric washing machines out there. Yeah, not, no. I'm going to go with a little bit of a surprise pick here. I'm going with Jack. This is where Jack will get some praise in this podcast. I'm loving the button downs that Jack. Dutton is bringing to this ranch war. And in particular, the light denim button down that he had on in episode four with like the off center pocket. Just thought that was delightful.

And frankly, I bet you I could find something like that at Madewell and I'm going to look. See, this to me is why he can't be the direct progenitor of John Dutton the third. He's just, he's too fashion forward, two fashion. He is very hip. He is very hip. He was really into the saloon and learning about the new cocktails. I mean, John Dun & the third would simply never. Absolutely not. No. They may not be related at all. Yeah. All right, Ben, before we wrap, final thoughts for the rest of season one. We've got a few weeks away before the return in February. We were treated to this delightful little midseason trailer that shows us some of what's to come based on where we left things in episode four, based on what you've got. glimpsed in that trailer. What are you most excited about for the back half of this season? Excited to see Timothy Dalton and Donald Whitfield, you know, just having James Bond and Indiana Jones go toe to toe here should be good. The Dan Jenkins or the market equities of 1923,

that's going to be good, I think. As long as you have Harrison Ford and Helen Mirren, they're probably going to be the ostensible leads and they are both back for season two, which itself is pretty impressive because as busy as Harrison Ford has been, he's at the stage of his career where he's choosing jobs based on how quickly his character is killed off clearly. So one final flex from Sheridan in that deadline interview when he was asked how he got Ford to come back for season two. Quote, Harrison made a comment at one point. He goes, Taylor, I think I'm making the best thing I've made in 20 years.

And my response to him was, what the fuck did you make 20 years ago as good as this? What was that? I missed that one. What was it? He's taunting Harrison Ford about his IMDP. Granted, the early 2000s was not the apex mountain for Harrison Ford, but still just incredible balls on Taylor Sheridan. So even if they are still sort of at the top of the call sheet, clearly we're going to get

more Spencer, right? So we're both excited for that. I mean, Spencer's reunion with Jacob and Kara, Spencer versus Braun, Spencer in a cowboy hat. And as we saw, just the footage in the teaser, like Spencer and Alex are going to need a bigger boat. This looks like the perfect storm meets Jaws. So I'm excited for just this passage.

Seems like it's going to be incredible. So so much to anticipate. Here's a true story for you, Ben. When Adam and I were watching episode four and Spencer and Alex were frolicking in the water, talking about souls, talking about ravaging. I turned to Adam and I said, I feel certain a shark is about to attack.

I feel certain we are about to watch Spencer fight a shark. Strangle it with his bare heads. Yes, it didn't happen. I felt stunned and cheated. And then I gasped aloud when the mid-season trailer came on and showed Spencer pointing a gun at a shark from a bone. I knew that Taylor Sheridan, in my bones, I knew that he would not deprive us of Spencer.

versus a shark. So that has to be the pick for a thing we're most excited for, though my other pick is also the one that you gave. Like, I am so hyped that Timothy Dalton is in this show just coming off season five of the crown

where we were treated to a truly special Timothy Dalton guest appearance. I can't wait. It was really fun to get to spend a scene with his character in episode four and start soaking up his very particular energy. I cannot wait to see Timothy Dalton, Helen Barron and Harrison Ford

in a show. Yeah, completely. It's going to be good. One thing we know, as Spencer Dutton said, it'll never be dull. I can promise you that. Perfect end note. Okay. That's a wrap for us today, but it is not a wrap on the

Yellowstone expanded universe. So catch up on all of this. If you haven't, head back to Paramount Plus in February. If you could wait that long for more with the Dutton crew. This episode of the Prestige TV podcast was produced by Chris Sutton.

Thank you, Chris. Remember, to head back to the Prestige TV feed on Sunday night. Van and Charles will have their instant reaction to the Last of Us premiere. Ben and I will be strolling the streets of Montana chatting with local salesmen about refrigeration and visiting hidden saloons

until 1923 returns. Bye.