The Prestige TV Podcast - A 'WandaVision' Breakdown for the Comic Book Fans

Episode Date: January 15, 2021

Van Lathan and Charles Holmes, two Marvel comic book fans, break down the first two episodes of 'WandaVision.' Hosts: Van Lathan and Charles Holmes Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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How long have you been married, and why don't you have children yet? Our story. I think what my wife means to say is that we moved from... Move from where? Married when? Damn it, why? Oh, Arthur, stop it. Stop it.

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This summer, serve up the cookout classics, craft mayo and dressing. Toss green salads with delicious ranch dressing or zesty Italian. Serve smooth, craveably creamy potato salads with mayo. We all know it's not a cookout without craft. Yo, welcome to TV concierge. I am Van Lathen, host of Higher Learning here at the Ringer, and I am joined by Charles Holmes, host, of the Ringer music show,

and we are here to talk about the magical new show that's debuted on Disney Plus from the MCU Wan Division. A show that's already actually been sort of divisive on social media,

but it's sort of, well, not sort of. It actually is the first of a whole slate of shows that the MCU is coming to Disney Plus with. So there's a lot riding on the shoulders of this show, but there are also a lot of questions about it.

So we're going to go through the first two episodes here. We're at least talk about the first two episodes. And Charles, like, what are your thoughts? Just initial reactions, snap judgment reactions, knee-jerk reactions to what you saw. All right, yo, man. I'm not trying to come in too hot, too hot, but the first two episodes were a little shaky, in my opinion. It was a little, uh, ooh, I don't know. I don't know. It was a risk. I don't know if it paid off. What did you think of the first two episodes?

All right. So we should talk about this a little bit. In my opinion, Wanda Vision is a significant jump forward for the MCU because it's the first time. Not only are they delving into some new storytelling devices here, but it's also the first time they're going to try to take their big screen spectacle and give it to us in TV show format. Yes. And I think it was kind of smart, actually, for them to do it sort of in the way that it's done on the show. If case you guys don't know, the Wanda Vision show, at least for these first two episodes, and we've both seen the first three,

but we're just going to talk about the first two here. Yeah. They take the form of a different sort of classic sitcom every single time. And the first two are actually in black and white, and they kind of mimic the beats of an Ozian Harriet or leave it to Beaver or something like that. And if you're coming straight off Avengers Endgame to that,

you're probably a little confused when you want. The last two episodes of this show. Oh, you're going to be, it's Dick Van Dyke it, both first two episodes, black and white. Also, I think it was a jolt. Just, yeah, if you're expecting this CGI spectacle, it's almost like you're watching a CW show, like Arrow, which is also another thing we can talk about. But I kind of wanted to know from you, like, what is your kind of relationship to, like, Wanda and Vision? Did you just know them from when they were, they debuted in age of ultra? were you reading them in the comics? Like, what's your relationship to them?

No, yeah, not at all. I, in terms of marvel in my comic book reading, a lot of my comic book reading was, you know, heavier X-Men. But the relationship between Wanda and Vision was so key to one of the hugest comic arcs that, you know, that you read the House of them, that you had to know about their relationship, about their kids, about all of that to kind get into that entire deal. So I, so the thing with me is, I think another reason why there's a lot of grace is because I'm actually trying to connect dots that the 13, 14 year old me has already seen. So I sort of know what it is that they're doing. I'm just trying to see how they're doing it. So I think that actually helped me in viewing the series. How about yourself? So yeah, I'm like a

huge comic book fan. I knew so much about kind of like, Wanda in Vision, I was somebody as a kid who grew up during like the Avengers Disassembled storyline when like Wanda goes kind of insane. She kills Vision. Went nuts. Yeah. Then House of Them. She says like no more mutants, all this stuff. So like I do think that I gave the show an amount of grace because I know about Vision and Wanda's history about the will they won't they getting married, having kids, the kids being demons, all this stuff.

And I think one of my first issues as a critic... Charles, you're spoiling. You're doing some spoiler shit right now. Just to let you know. Like, you're doing some spoiler. You can go on Wikipedia for any of this. Go ahead. Well, like, my issue with the whole thing is, like, throughout the MCU, I felt the characters

that were probably the most underserved were Wanda in Vision. Like, we see them in Age of Ultron. And then they're kind of together in Civil War for five. minutes. And by like the time Thanos rips the jewel out of Vision's head and he's dead, I'm like, there was no set up for why they were together, their first kiss, their first date. Why are they perfect for each other? So when you get to Wanda Vision, the audience is just, if you've never read the comics before and you've just seen the movies, the audience is supposed to believe these two are in love, but does it give you kind of any backstory on that? Is that fair?

it's fair to us but not to the movie audience. Yes, not to the movie audience. Right. It's more than fair to us because remember, and we're coming at this from the nerdiest possible angle, I'm in my bag right now. I love this. So to us, it's incredibly fair, right?

For us, we know how important that relationship was and really sort of the depths that it took each character to. You know, we know about Billy and Tommy, wicking and speed, whatever it is that you want to call them. Like, we know, all of these things, right? We get it. And we know that it's a lot deeper. I think that there's something that I do. It's called movie patience. I have movie patience with things that I know the source material to, not just in terms of comic books, but anytime I've read a book and then I go

watch a movie, I start thinking to myself, okay, how are they going to movify this to where it makes sense for everybody who's watching it and not just to me? And I've done this for like no country for old man or other thing or the road or whatever. it is that I've read and then gone and watched the movie to. In that case, you couldn't help but be disappointed. You were going to be disappointed because you know there's way more. But I think in the scope of the MCU, with so much else happening around them, I think people got probably as much wanted to envision as they felt like they needed.

And I think that's why this show is unique and has a unique opportunity because it has the ability to expound upon the source. of offbeat nature of both of those characters. And even in the comic books, they're both kind of offbeat. Scarlet Witch is this amazingly powerful yet almost enigmatic character. And Vision is a robot with feelings. That's inherently weird, right? Yeah.

So in this, they get to explore all of those quirks. And hopefully they'll be able to fill in some of that stuff that you felt like you were missing. Because you're right. In totality of Wanda Envision's relationship, in this. entire thing, is it six scenes? Is it 10 before this? I would be surprised if they got a half hour between Asia Ultron and, what, and Gabe? I truly don't think they got that much screen time. So the fact, and it was partially impacted by the pandemic, the fact that they switched,

the, you know, the Falcon and Winter Soldier, I think, was supposed to be the first MCU. And because of the pandemic, you know, they had to go with Wanda Vision. I think if I had seen the spectacle first of Falcon and Winter Soldier, I would have been a little bit more prepped for Wanda Vision, which it's the MCU saying, yo, you guys have invested in us. We kind of have some capital.

We trust that you'll stay with us for these first two episodes. Because to be frank, the first two episodes, it's like a slow build. It's weird. It's saying like, hey guys, we're not going to reveal everything too.

you at first glance. It's not like the Mandalorian. There's no baby Yoda coming in to kind of like save you. It's like, nope, we're, it's going to be slow. I'll compare it to the Mandalorian in one way. First of all, can I ask how old you are? Is that okay? 28.

You're 28. Yes. Ooh. I'm 40. So let's talk about, let's talk about, wow. This brother just went. Ooh. Like, wait a minute.

Hold on for a sake. You're an ultra statesman. You're an ultra statesman. Wow. This brother just went like that brother. You next time don't go. go, damn, you old. This brother just went, oh, yeah, I was 12 when you were born.

I was out here reciting Snoop Dog lyrics when you were born. I'm so sorry. It's all gravy. But so there's two reasons why I ask that, and I'll get to them both. The first thing is when you look at the first two episodes of the show, as it relates to sort of, you know, what's going on. I think it's important what you said about the Falcon and the Winter Soldier, because the Falcon and the Winter Soldier would have been a direct sequel to endgame, right?

And it would have been a direct sequel to end game. Like, in game is over. Cap, all plot holes aside, is, you know, has lived his life. And now here are two guys that are going to sort of race towards the mantle of being Captain America. Okay. And it's going to, and people get to continue the story.

This going first is both, it's a blessing in disguise for the MCU because it actually gives the MCU a chance to me to do a hard reset on people's expectations because they're going to take some more chances here with these other movies. You're going to see some characters that you haven't seen before like Shang Xi and some other people that people

really, they do not know. You know, Ironheart, people like that that they do not know. So if they can actually build some value in Wanda and Vision here, it might bowl well for them giving new characters to people that they really weren't familiar with. That's the first thing. Secondly, this, and I'll tell you why this matters, the reason why the first two episodes of the show

don't bother me as much is because I would bet then I'm more familiar with that style of television than you are. Because when I grew up in the 80s, all of these shows were still heavy on reruns, right? So, like, leave it to... I still grew up with Leave It to Beaver. I still grew up with Bewitched. I still grew up with I Dream a Jeannie.

I still, not in their first runs, but in Incarnations, they existed when I was a kid. There actually was a time when they started revamping those shows. It was the new Leave it to Beaver. It was the new Gidgett. It was all of those things, right? And so because of that, I've seen these shows so many times. And I kind of get a kick out of watching Elizabeth Olson and Paul Bettney try that on.

but I am wondering, because I was talking to somebody about this not too long ago, there's a generation gap where those shows don't mean anything to anyone anymore. Like they're too old, right? The first principal in Blair is y'all old sitcoms now. You know what I mean? So for people that are watching that, they don't have, they aren't familiar with the format, I'm wondering how episodes like the first two are going to resonate with them.

See, I think you're touching on something where the MCU kind of touches so many generations, where if you're from my generation, I was still watching Nick at night, but my shows where I would say what, from like the 70s and 80s, where like I remember watching different strokes or the Cosby show. And like sometimes, you know,

I would see like an I love Lucy or a bewitched, but it wasn't the same as like, all right, every night I'm going to sit down and watch like these very, the shows were in color, which is like black and white, like I have no emotional attachment, no nostalgia for this.

So when I was watching it, I was like, oh, I've seen episodes of Bewished. I know what they're doing. Some of the jokes, some of the pacing. I was like, all right, this is like cool for a Tumblr post. Like, yo, give me the action. Give me the good stuff. And like as a comic band, there were certain things. Like there are certain Easter eggs, whether it's like they have commercials where, you know,

they're stark. Hydra's watching, Stark and all of that stuff like that. Also, like, Easter egg, I'm thinking, you know, you're a comic book buff. You know, the neighbor, what's her name, Agnes? Catherine Hahn? Catherine Hahn? Yo, I think that's Scarlet Witch's mentor, Agatha, the old one in the comics. I was like, whoop.

I see where they're going. Spoiler. Right. Spoiler. And look, and they're starting to more, I would say this. So the first two episodes, you have a device centered around, it's a classic sitcom device, Vision's boss is coming over for dinner. They didn't know what.

It's a classic sitcom device where she's thinking one thing, he's thinking another thing, and then in the third act of it, there's going to be cataclysm around the fact that they weren't thinking the same thing. That's a classic sitcom device, right? And I think that as a sitcom deal, it worked perfectly.

Like, enough if you were watching an old Ozzie and Harry or Leave it to Beaver, I think if you're looking for clues as to what's going on in this world. The first episode particularly is very sparse. Yes. You have to,

there's literally one scene that really tells you, hey, something's not right here. The second episode, it gets a little bit crazier with it because there's a scene at the end of this episode and it's different. They've moved on and now,

you know, it's centered around like a talent show that they have to get ready for. Once again, another classic sitcom device where they have to prepare for something together and then as they've prepared, hijinks occurred just before they're supposed to do it,

and boom. And then towards the end of that one, you start to see more that something's wrong with this world or something's off about this particular world. And there's some things that she sees. There's an insignia that we both know what that insignia means, that some comic book fans are going to get

and some people might not get. So I really hope that people are patient with it. Because I love these. these first two episodes. You love them? Loved them. All right. I ran them back a couple of times, Charles.

Yeah, Chuck. I dug them. I was into them, Charles. Tell me why I'm wrong. Tell me why I'm wrong, Charles Holmes. I think the first two episodes, they're not bad TV, but they're built on this idea

that we already care about, Vision and Wanda, in a way that we don't. Like, I just don't think the regular audience has any reason to care why these two are together, why they love each other, why we should be invested. There's no, like, Ross and Rachel, there's no Jim and Pam. Their love is just all off-screen. Everything that's happened with their love life is off-screen. And I think it was a little bit of a writing misstep

to trust that the audience will just go along further on and be like, all right, sure, yeah, they're in love. And even if it was just five or ten minutes at the top to kind of show us the history of why they're together because we still never have gotten that. And there's a part in the first episode where everything kind of starts unraveling when they ask like, hey, why are you guys together? Like, where did you meet? How long have you been married? All these questions.

And I think that was their way of kind of pointing to the fact that as an audience we don't know. But yeah, the first two episodes, I was a little like, uh, man, like I know the comics and I'm giving them a lot of slack. And I'm also getting paid by the ringer to watch this. I don't know how many people are going to have that type of patience of like, yeah, I'm going to stick around until like the fourth or fifth episode to kind of see where this is all going.

Well, number one, I think that you're being unfair when we say we don't know why they're in love. We do know why they're in love. Stockholm syndrome. He was her captor in Avengers headquarters, right? Then she fell in love. She's basically Patty Hurst, another old person reference that some of you youngsters might not get crack open to history. book. But no, so, you know, you're right. But I, the thing that I would point out is that I think

the MCU has done a good job of making, especially casual fans, care about characters that, and interpersonal relationships between characters that they haven't really particularly cared about, right? Fair enough. Fair. So I think that me, and this is not to, to in any way, minimize Hank Pim's influence on the Avengers or in Marvel, but I went to go see an Ant Man movie. Like I sat down and I watched it. Now, when I was reading books, look, Ant Man is a big part of all of these stories.

And he is kind of the comic book characters. He's almost like the MF Doom of comic book characters. He's the comic book's nerds favorite character because Ant Man's just cool, right? Right? But he's not a mainstream character. But for me, like, that's the brilliance of the MCU. If we're being honest, all of these characters that we're watching from the MCU,

the most of them are B-level characters and they get an A-level treatment. Wanda and Vision are kind of getting into their A-level treatment right here. This is the first time they're going to give them the A-level treatment. Wanda hasn't gotten her own movie. Vision hasn't gotten his own movie. It's not like Iron Man or Thor, one of the original. Avengers or even Black Widow who they came back and gave her our own movie after a while. So this is the first time they're going to get the star treatment that a lot of the lesser

characters in the comic book world get. And I think it's fascinating to see how Marvel plans on doing this. And for me, at least right now, the fact that they went a non-traditional way with it, it's working for me because it's keeping me guessing. If you pick up Wanda and Vision's story after endgame, there is no Wanda Vision story because Vision got it, he wasn't even in game, even in game. He got his, the mindstone ripped out of his head in Infinity War. So the entry was enough to keep me there.

And I thought that it was funny enough, cool enough, and quirky enough in these first two episodes. Do you like, my question to you is do you like the chemistry between Bettany and Olson? Because that is, I think, one of the saving graces. where I do actually want to, I do think they both have kind of this movie star quality of where I want to watch their love story. And that's something that really has not been done that effectively in the MCU before.

Like, we're kind of distracted by all of the big battles. But in these first two episodes, I'm just like, yeah, I like, I buy it. I buy them being this kind of weird couple going through this thing. And anytime the story veered from that, I was like, I don't, I don't care. Like, just go back to them being in a house and, like, going through wacky, like, adventures.

That does, to me, work. Did it work for you? It did. I enjoyed watching them pull off those archetypes because I thought they did a really good job. But I also just liked them together. The big, tall, regal Englishman and the quirky, wacky, young and this American lady because she's not playing Wanda Maximoff from some. Sarcovia in this situation.

No, she's not. She's not. She's playing American middle of the country housewife. And I think that it works. And I think that that dichotomy, I would almost be interested in an actual sitcom about that. And not only that, but I want to shout out all of the players that are in this deal. All

of the actors that are surrounding them, they're really leaning into this entire world that they've created. And the performances, of course Catherine Hahn is always fantastic. The performances are I do wonder, though, to your point, if the audience, and oh, shit, we ain't got much else to do, but if the audience is going to give the show enough patience and grace for it to find his legs,

because there are some explosive things coming. I think we both know that. But for people that are coming off a show, maybe like The Mandalorian, which had one of the great second seasons in the history of any show that I've ever seen, and are looking to get back into the MCU coming off of a year, for the first time, we got no Marvel content, you know, if this is going to be the show that they need right now, what are your thoughts on that? Do you think that this show is more hamstrung by the fact that there were no MCU movies for the first time in like 10 or 11 years last year?

Yeah, I, watching it, I was a little bit worried because I'm like, hmm, first two episodes, you're asking a lot of your audience. And I think for maybe some people who have a connection to like a Dick Van Dyke or a bewitched or an I love Lucy, they'll stay on. But for a younger audience, Wanda Vision has a lot stacked against it. Most people, like if we're being honest, like Scarlet Witch and Vision are ceiless characters. I love them, but they're ceiless characters. Almost no one cares about them. Then you have the first two episodes being fully in black and white and you kind of don't know what's going on.

It's like a second strike. And then you come in off Luke Skywalker in the last episode of the Mandalorian, like just slashing everybody. It's like my expectation's going in and it's unfair, but my expectation is like, all right, we back in the MCU. What's popping? Oh, no, they went art house. No, no, no, no.

Go back. Like, yeah, I don't. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe people will stay on it. But I do think people, you know, on Friday will be, like, little bit surprised. And also, maybe this is a little incendiary, but whatever, I think we're going to have the Wonder Woman 1984 problem where when you roll it out to critics and you have

an entire class of critics going, man, it's so weird, it's so, it's so amazing. I can't believe Fagie and they all did it. It's amazing. I think that's actually going to hurt it in the same way it hurt Wonder Woman because nobody was kind of real with what you're expecting. I think if critics were a little bit more fair. We're like, yo, man, like, I'm not gonna lie. They swing.

They took a swing and they might have missed. I think people's expectation would have been a little bit less. You know what I mean? Because we're coming off Wonder Woman 1984, which people did not like. Did not like.

Did not like. Okay, so this is what I'll say. I have two scales that I use. Okay. I have the Hamner scale and the Homeboy scale. Those are two scales, right? The Hamner scale

is based, off of a guy I went to high school with. So last name was Hamner. And me and him did all types of nerdy shit together. He was the guy that I was playing magic to gathering with. You know what I mean? Like literally, literally. Like before football practice, like he showed me.

I saw them playing the game and I'm just curious. I'm like, yo, how to play the game. And before you know it, I'm in full pads down there playing Magic to Gathering. Okay. we would go to Mr. Gubauer's class and watch Monty Python movies you know during the between periods right so when I had something nerdy

that I wanted to kind of get into no matter what it was it was the Hamner scale what does uh I'm not going to say the brother's whole name because he works for the government now but what does he think then there was the homeboy scale this is the Hamner to homeboy dynamic

some things the Hamner's like some things the homeboys like some things they both like. Yes. I think that Wanda Vision it's going to score pretty high on the Hamner scale. Most of them. Pretty high.

Pretty high. The Homeboys scale, who! These first two episodes, I'm just telling my homeboys, my dudes from down there in Baton Rouge, my friends from all over the place, even the comic book fans, but the ones that go,

yo man, Superman didn't punch enough shit in that movie. I'm telling you guys right now, just hold on. let yourself love, let yourself be free. Just hold on. The first two episodes are great Hamner-wise, homeboy-wise, might be a little bit of a struggle, but I truly enjoyed the first two episodes of Wanda Vision.

So you're telling me this is the TV show where you're like, all right, you know, you just got the first season, man. You just got to get through it. And then the second season, it gets pretty good. Yes, actually, everybody told me that about Better Call Saul, but I still can't do it. It's not working for me. All right.

So honestly, you know, any closing, any closing thoughts about Wanda Vision? Was there anything we didn't touch in this inaugural episode of the Wanda Vision podcast? I'll stop. TV concierge. TV concierge, yeah. I think there are a couple of things. Number one, there are a lot of things that I feel like are going to be fundamental to the new phase of the MCU that are going to be introducing this show.

a whole new organization that has a whole different jurisdiction in terms of what it is that they do a relatively new organization in terms of the comic books but they're kind of fucking sword I'm not going to keep

I'm trying not to spoil it but we're going to see in this episode any true fan knows that the origins of sword are kind of going to be in this show and something else interesting is sort of how Billy and Tommy themselves, the children that are going to come later on in the show,

they're in the trailer, you guys can see it, how they're going to reform the MCU because of what they might be classified as. So if you want this show to matter, hold on because it is really going to matter for the future of the MCU. Yeah, I think a couple of things, you know, because we love the comics that I'm already thinking of is like, is this the show that brings in, you know, the X-Men and the Mutants?

Right. Is this the show? Because we already know that Dr. Strange and, and Wanda are going to be introducing the multiverse. Do we kind of get something of that in there? I also think a lot of people are thinking, like, what are they going to do with the Avengers? And if you're thinking of, you know,

Wicken and Speed, you know, they have a Miss Marvel and Ironheart TV show. Is this where they start leading seats for what will probably be an Avengers movie? So I think this show will make sense towards the end. And it seems like almost this is like the launching pad for the next phase of the MCU in terms of like what people will really be excited about. And maybe that's a little unfair to Wanda Vision because when I came into I was like, all right, where are we where are the mutants? You know what I'm saying? I'm just like, is a Magneto going to be in this?

Like, what's going to be? Right. What's going on? I would be dope, though, if old grandpap, pop came by and then he's just magnetizing stuff all over the time. Billy, Tommy, here's your granddad. This is a fast, but, wait, so this is also, I'm going to ask, because, you know, you were talking about House of Vap. Instead of No More Munions, do you think by the end of this, Wanda is going to do the opposite? Yeah, that's what I think. I'm trying to do shit without spoiling it.

Yes, I think, yeah, I think that's a thing. I think that this is going to, in some way, I want to see how they give birth to the mutants. Charles just give you the whole thing. Charles is like, and then onslaught's going to come. No, like, it's like, it's like Charles, give me the whole thing. Yeah, I think they're going to figure out where the mutants are and how they come about. And maybe, you know, you'll see it in this whole thing. You're trying so hard.

Let's just give the people what they want, man. Once again, our older gentlemen, younger rabble. rouser. Like, that's the difference between us right there. Um, bro, it was a pleasure chopping it up with you, man. That's, that's all I got. You got anything else? Nah, man. I'm honored. I'm honored. And I am sure the ringer will, uh, will, uh, put us back together again to spoil some more comic book, right? Content for everyone. It would be a lot of fun, bro. All right, man. Peace. All right, peace. Expedia. You're here. But are you here? Here?

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