The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Baby Reindeer’ Review

Episode Date: May 2, 2024

Charles Holmes and Jodi Walker debate the merits of Netflix’s newest hit, 'Baby Reindeer,' in which a struggling comedian is made to deal with both a female stalker and his own dark past. They examine just how the show subverted viewer expectations, the way it leaned into (and away from) the true crime angle, and its brave portrayal of trauma. Hosts: Charles Holmes and Jodi Walker Producer: Devon Baroldi Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What is going on with Kate Middleton? Which cult is popping off right now? What the hell is a trad wife? And why are we so obsessed with them? I'm Jody Walker. And I'm Chelsea Stark Jones. And we're obsessed. Obsessed with all the pop culture happenings,

filling our group chats and 4U pages. And we want to talk about them with you. Our new show, We're Obsessed, is for all the things we're loving, buying, watching, listening to, and spiraling over right now. Follow the ringer dish feed on Spotify to listen to We're Obsessed every Friday. Hello and welcome to the Prestige TV podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I am Jody Walker, joined by my esteemed colleague, Charles Holmes.

And we are here to talk about the Netflix show that has been driving audiences wild. And I will also say, driving Ringer editors wild in exactly how to come. cover it. And that show is Baby Raneer. Yep. Which has been at number one on Netflix for I want to say 100-ish weeks. Does that sound right, Charles? It feels like that.

I am a fan of this show, Baby Rangier. I will say off the top. I want to ask my buddy Charles who I think has watched it recently. This show has been on a while. We are hitting it kind of late. I watched it right when it dropped

was I actually want to say a little blown away by it because I was so surprised by it because I just feel like I was one of the first people to watch it. I've rewatched it now that we're going to chat about it. I know that Charles has just watched it.

Binged watched it. You know, when you get a text from your editor and Bill Simmons be like, are you watching Baby Rainier? And I'm like, I can. I did not realize when I was binging it. I was like, oh, oh, this is going to fuck up the vibe

in my apartment so much right now. Oh, yeah, for sure. I also binge watched it, but I did it by choice. And that is one of the strange experiences of it, as I think most people are binge watching it. That's what you do on Netflix. The show, kind of one of the features of baby reindeer is that it pulls the rug out from under you in episode four. So even before we get into our thoughts, because I went into this blind. Everybody was talking about baby reindeer, baby reindeer, No, Charles, how has this not infiltrated your world? By choice. Okay.

Because I just was seeing screenshots and I was just like, man, I don't know if this is for a black man, 31 in L.A. I just, I don't know if it'll scratch that itch. But so many people were like interested in it. I'm like, y'all, give it a shot. So I did not know that this was created by Richard Gad, comedian, and that it was also based on a one-person play. Right. So I got to, like, episode four, and then I was like, well, fuck, you got to research this shit.

And then I was just like, oh, that's when it clicked and makes sense. Because I do think that is probably the genius of the show, is that at first it presents itself as almost like a very true crimeish story of this comedian and his stalker. And you think it's one thing. And then by episode four, spoiler alert, we will be spoiling the rest of reindeer, which has been up forever, it pivots. And there is a moment of sexual assault.

And then the TV show kind of veers off into something, I think, more ambitious and a little bit darker and a little bit just naughtier. And I will say, it's kind of cool that I did not know who's coming. It is cool. I mean, it's definitely cool that you had that experience four weeks after the show dropped. and it's been like this huge deal. I had a similar experience. I had no idea what it was about. The only spoiler that I had,

and I appreciate that I had it, which is that I watched the first three episodes, which episode one is kind of introducing you to Donnie, who is Richard Gad's sort of autobiographical character. Yeah. And Martha, who is ultimately his stalker, which really happened to Richard Gad in real life. he was a sort of like, you know, want to be comedian and got a stalker while he was working

in a bar. And so the first episode is kind of experiencing their relationship, how he kind of also becomes obsessed with her. Episodes two and three kind of play out like a thriller. Like, as her behavior escalates, as his behavior is more unpredictable, you can't figure out what's going on. The spoiler I had was I just, I was really invested already in those first three episodes. So I was like, you know, let's type baby reindeer into Twitter, just see what's going on.

And everyone who had already watched it was like, look out for episode four. That was the notification that I had. And episode four itself has basically a trigger warning at the front. Oh, I needed a trigger warning for the trigger warning because like I watch, when I tell you, I binge watch this, I finished episode four probably last night. And there was that like, what the fuck is? It was like warning it. I was like, what is happening?

right now. It was, it's like a gut punch. Yeah. In such a way that I'm just like, we will talk about our feelings about the show critically, but there are not many shows left that can actually be like, okay, that swing surprised me. This, this artistic choice where it comes in the narrative, like I had, because if we're being real, I had already kind of picked up that Donnie throughout this, what I think makes the first three episodes really, really. fascinating is that Donnie as a character and Gad are kind of interrogating what it means to have a stalker, what is Donnie's role in this, what is Martha's role, and they're doing something where it's like, you know that there's a dark history that Donnie has and the show is very good

at seating it, but you're also starting to be like, do I even like Donnie? What role does he have with this Martha thing. And you kind of know that there is this assault and potentially this past abuse. Martha even kind of clocks it. And once episode four starts with a flashback, I was like, oh no, it's happening. And when it happens and it unfolds

and it is just vivid and gruesome and they don't back away from it, I was like, this takes a lot of courage. This is, I think, gripping in the way that a lot of like, I wouldn't call this true crime, but at least true to life stuff is. But maybe we get into, like, you obviously love this.

So, like, let's stop dancing right. Why did you love Baby Rang Dara? What is it about this show that, like, the rest of the nation, you were just like, yes. No, I can't speak for the rest of the nation because that is what I find so fascinating. Is this is a weird, weird show for everyone, except for you, to be obsessed with.

Like, this is, it is very, it has been very popular. Everyone is talking about it. And I think that the reception of it has been wildly positive from audiences first and critics second. And I find that absolutely shocking. It is a tough show to take down. But for me, what I loved about it, took away from it immediately is basically what you just said, which is that it's very brave. not just, I think, not just in the personal experience or the, you know, sort of adapted personal experiences that Gad is sharing, but in the show that he's made. And it very much feels like something

that's been adapted from a one-man show at Edinburgh French Fest, which you know is also the story of, like, flea-back and a couple of other sort of, like, dark, like, painful comedies. this one is darker and more painful probably. You have the narrator, you have him. To your point, it does have that play quality of almost like this is,

he's telling you how he's feeling in a way that I was just like, this reminds me a flea bag. Right. Yeah, you're not seeing him look to camera, but the narration is fairly constant. And I was really gripped by it. I think most of the better writing in the show is in the narrative. rather than the dialogue.

And then, of course, when you get to episode six, which is the other, I would say, standout episode, you get a straight up monologue of him having a breakdown during a comedy set. And that, that's like, that just feels straight out of the one-man show, which I really liked. Like, that was some context that I didn't get till later after I'd finished that I liked.

But for me, that setup is brave. To put this show on Netflix, is so weird. It's such an unusual show with a strange structure. And to rip the rug out like that in episode four of people who are on Netflix,

Netflix just fucking prime to watch some true crime. You know, like, you see, every time I've gotten on Netflix, the thumbnail for this show has been completely different, which, you know, they change the thumbnails

for like what you're looking for. But for me, every time I get on, it's different. Recently I got on and it was like, his head, pasted on a reindeer body and her writing it.

That was a new one. Before it had been like his strange face. Sometimes it's like her face looking kind of like demented. And that suggests to you. Well, also let's get out of the way. The first thing that you get about this show is the title, which is weird. And to me, it reminded me of that like true crime documentary that was something about cats. Like don't kill fucking cats.

It was just kind of like a strange animal. And so also stalking is kind of an unusual crime to cover. Especially when it is a older man stocking. I mean an older woman stalking a man. And that's part of the show as well where it's just like, wait, this woman is stalking this man. And then like I had heard that this was about sexual assault. And it's like at first I was like, wait, is this about Martha sexually assaulting him? I think that happens in episode three.

And then episode four, it's like, oh, no, this is a show. about, like, when they flashback, I'm like, oh, no, this is a show about kind of that original thing happening to him. And then how Martha and his relationship is informed by this studio exact, writer, showrunner, who he has a very complicated relationship with, who kind of, not kind of, grooms him, puts, like, gives him a bunch of drugs and then sexually assaults him. And it was that moment where I was just like, oh, also in a one-man play, I'm like, you can tell this is well written structurally just from the, you think it's one thing for the first three episodes, four changes it's on its axis. And then I would say by the finale, it becomes another thing.

Right. Yes, totally. Which is like that I just walked away from episode seven, also binge watching it, you know, in a deep dark place. But also really respecting it. Like, I, Richard Gad, I respect your game in what you've created here because to take an audience like Netflix, who's like, you know, which includes ourselves, you know, binge watching stuff on Netflix. Like, I am happy to slurp down a not well-made true crime docu-series that is like, you know, veering on the edge of problematic. I will do that. Most, a lot of Netflix audience will do that.

And I believe that a lot of that Netflix audience is watching. baby reindeer, kind of expecting that in the beginning. And then from my perspective, what I've heard from audiences is they've stuck with it at episode four, because I think that people have been so taken in by these characters, it's very messy. And really, it's just a show about him. Like, it is about his experiences with trauma and abuse. And he says, I think in one of the final episode. He says in his breakdown, that episode six, like, monologue comedy breakdown that he kind of fears that he has become this receptacle for abuse, that abusers can sense this on him. They see something in him that is like, makes him susceptible to this, which is like, was the

moment that breaks my heart. In this, like, I almost started crying when he's like revealing to his parents that he's been raped by a man. And his dad just having the, line, I was raised in the Catholic Church and the dawning. And it's like there's this moment that's beautiful where it's like, you could tell his dad is this very just like rough around the edges Scottish man. When Martha starts calling him, he's like, yo, fuck off. I'll kill you. And there's this moment where his father reveals what happened to him as a child.

And Donnie goes for like a handshake. And his dad goes for a hug. And I'm just like, oh, we've only seen his parents, I think, for one or two episodes at that point. And you already understand. I'm like, oh, this is maybe one of the first times as an adult he's gotten a hug from his rough Scottish father. And I'm like, that's even if I, maybe I'll get into why I did not like the show. But like, those were moments where I was like, this is a very emotionally honest product. Right, Charles, because it's sounding to me like you were taken in by the show a bit.

But we will get to that. But the parents, the parents are great. They come in in, like, episode five or six, and that dad, you just, you meet him telling Martha on the phone because she's gotten a hold of his phone number that he will break her fucking legs. And then she clearly says something back to him and he says, how are you going to do that with no leg? Like, he is coming, he is approaching it in such a different way than his son who shares, you know, that is one of the very messy parts of the show that is, I feel like very brave. of Gad to sort of expose. What I really liked in the rewatch is realizing that one of the episode one opens

on kind of a flash forward to Donnie going to the police station to tell them about Martha for the very first time. And they basically, you know, this like goofy-ass front desk guy is basically like, why did it take you so long to come forward?

Because this has been going on for six months. And I feel like the series is basically, basically answering that question for seven episodes, which is the signature question for abused parties. Why did it take you so long? Why did you stay? And that is sort of the end. And the answer is it's complicated.

And that I feel is, you know, this very personal story and answer that Richard Gad has created now two pieces of art about. But it also feels really universal in the way. that it's like, it's just complicated. I mean, a lesser show, and this is why I was like, I think the reason a lot of people probably are taken in with this show from an emotional place is that no character gets left off. Like, no care, every character is nuanced where it's like Martha.

At first, Martha is introduced as almost this harmless person. It is like the original sin, if you will, that Donnie does is like he sees a woman that can't afford a drink, and he gives her a die code on the house or a tea or whatever it is. And then, as you see with Martha, like, it takes us until the end of

the series, the series finale, for him to listen to one of her messages, and he finally realized what baby reindeer means. And you're just like, when you get that reveal, you're like, oh, there might have been abuse in Martha's family,

or that she's coming from a place. And that doesn't mean, make anything that she does good at all, but you're just like, oh, okay, because the whole time you're like, what does Donnie see in this woman? Why does he want her attention? Why is he enthralled when she sees the pain in him? And instead of shying away from that, it's like, it was rough when you're watching him, he has this relationship with this trans woman. I think her name is, Trish. Terry. With Terry. And to get his libido, back, he ends up having sex with Martha, who we learn in the other episodes, he already knows.

He's like, she's not all the way there. Like, I think there's a mental illness here. And when that happens, it's like, wait, excuse me, what? When he stalks her the first time, well, not stocks, but when he follows her home, you're like, excuse me what? And once you get to episode four, you start unraveling them like, oh, the reason that he's obsessed with Martha isn't just that he's obsessed with understanding his stalker. He's obsessed with understanding, like, at least from his perspective, why am I attracting these people who abuse me?

Like, he's, like, you see both examples of two people that sexually assault him. Like, what, and, like, you're seeing when he's, like, posting all of the, the detective work and all of the voicemails, you're almost breaking your heart because in each episode, it's like as he gets better, something happens and he reverts. And it was just, I was like, oh, that is a really, that's a really hard thing to pull off in a TV show where it's like I didn't end up demonizing

Martha or Donnie. I was like, oh, these are hurt, abused people that keep hurting others. And that's not something. And TV is supposed to be like tidy, you know? Right. You're supposed to root for these people. And I wasn't rooting for any of them.

I was certainly. rooting for Donnie while also being constantly frustrated by him. But that's in the text. You know, you're supposed to be frustrated by him. You're supposed to have great humanity and empathy for him and the other characters, just like he maintains throughout the show. It's like it's his greatest strength and his greatest weakness that he has this immense amount of empathy and ability to see Martha as a human and not as as mental illness or as some monster who's stalking him. His constant dive back into I do see her as a human is kind of what keeps him going back.

But he's also obsessed with her being obsessed with him. Yes. We hear, you know, Terry is a really, Terry is a really interesting character. she is a trans woman that Donnie meets on a trans dating site under an alias because of his deep, deep well of shame that he is experiencing from this previous sexual assault with the TV creator. And he hasn't identified yet with his sexuality. It takes Terry almost towards the end of the series to be like, have you ever even given yourself a chance to think about? whether you're gay or maybe buy or any of these things. And I was just like, oh, that's interesting.

Right. Well, that's what I was going to say about Terry is, like, this is a woman who has to tell a man about himself. And if that ain't a character, I don't know what is. But I really liked about Terry that, like, I feel that she was given a much fuller beat than just that. She's also a therapist. So, like, you know, she's got the language to be like, well, Martha has mental illness and you are suffering trauma and da-da-da-da-da-da. She was my favorite character to me.

Oh, for sure. She kept to be watching. I was just like, I honestly wish this was about. Because she's very, to me, she's very imperfect. Like a character that could have been like extremely, you know, so sympathetic to him and getting him through this and just, you know, kind of like a martyr. She refuses to do that. And she, and she tells him she's got her own shit going on.

And like, you know, it was very difficult. for her to be a trans woman and she's not about to go back behind any doors just because he can't get over his shame. And this performance by Navamau, who is playing Terry, is really great. Phenomenal. And also Jessica Gunning, who plays Martha. I mean, these are really good. Even Gad, I was just like the transformation that he has in terms of, like, his eyes at certain points is just the pain.

and everything, the sweating. Everybody does a great job from an acting performance. And I think what I liked about Terry as a character to your point where I was like, I think a lesser show

would have put the trans woman character who's a therapist in the role of having to explain why everyone is the way. And there are some of that where like Terry at one point points to like Donnie and be like, you like this.

Like there's a part, but it never gets to like the corny part where I'm just like, oh, she's just a prop to explain stuff to us. She, like, it's like, the whole time I was like, why are you dating this Joker? Yeah. Like, why are you? You're a fucking catch. Yeah, I was like, what is the fun are you with him?

But I'm like, the show also does it back away. And it's like, he's watching her with another man. And I wasn't like, oh, I wish you were back with Don. He was like, no. I was like, go get, go have fun. On my rewatch, I was like, they don't get back to. right? I don't want them to get back together. I want, I want Terry to, you know, live a, I want them both to live a happy and fruitful life apart. Like, too much damage has been done here

to resolve. But yeah, I think, I think the show, there are a lot of pitfalls that I really feel like the show avoids. I mean, even we have to talk about it. Episode seven ends in a place where, so even if we're looking at episode seven, like there's the point where he goes back. So episode four is all about this TV showrunner, this creator, finding him as he's failing at his stand-up, they start this relationship that is toxic, drug-fueled, the assault happens, all this stuff.

And episode seven, he knocks on the door, and you're expecting, like, oh, is this the point in the story where he tells his abuser off or he gets something off his chest? And it ends in this blazer, it's like the guy's like, well, our relationship will never be like that again. I'm doing a reboot of the show, Cottonmouth. You can be a part of it. You'll get paid.

And he says yes. And then he goes back to the bar where he first meets Martha and he forgets his wallet and a kind. bartender gives him a drink on the house, is vodka coke or whatever? A double vodka Coke. That sounds disgusting. Disgusting.

That is very self-punishing. Also, I was just like, that was Martha's drink, minus the vodka. And that was the point where I was like, this show is interesting because it's interrogating what fame does to us,

what celebrity does for us, what that drive for it does. But I was like, it's almost too tidy. Where when he does the look to the camera where it's like, is Donnie the new Martha? I'm like, this is the Netflix show of it. Where it's like, obviously, this man is not

because he's a famous comedian that has worked on sex education and now has his own show on Netflix. If he was a real life stop, maybe he is, I don't know, I haven't heard of it, but I was just like, it was a very like, no, this is the Netflix TV show version of the true crime way.

It's happening again. It's one pass. You know, it is an open-ended ending, and that's the Netflix path, which is like, it's basically, you know, the Dan Humphrey show you. It's like, oh, in season one, we have one stalker, and in season three we have two stalkers and they're stalking each other. You know, like, it certainly could go down that path. I, and that is obviously was my first reaction is like, oh, shit, is Donnie about to start stalking this, like handsome kind bartender? but I think I chose to see it in the way that the show that I just watched seven episodes of, I think led me to see it, which is like a much more nuanced way than that,

which is more likely that Donnie is recognizing this bartender treating him with the same humanity that he treated Martha with at the beginning. And at the beginning, that resulted in something very bad for him. And I think like that is really the most, the messiest and most, complicated part of the show is that Donnie does a lot of things that are unwise, but it all starts because of this moment of humanity. And like, that's kind of the lesson is that, like, it doesn't always work out. And you're not asking for abuse. These things come and you have to deal with them. And that's just basically what we're watching this young man deal with. And yeah, that was

kind of more how I chose to see the ending of the show. I see that from an artistic perspective, but there was a moment where I was just like, as a writer, you always want that kicker. You're just like, what's the kicker? And I was just like, that's a good kicker, but it was too easy. It was too obvious. And in that way, what's funny is like I, so I binge watched this show and I realized, on my rewatch that I did fall asleep a couple times because like yourself, I was watching it really late at night. And I think the first time I watched it, I actually missed the final minute of the show. So when I rewatched it, I was like, no, that's interesting. This ending, I didn't quite catch the first time. And I did have a, like, kind of a moment where, like, yeah, to me, it actually doesn't totally add up with the rest of the show,

which I think zigs when you think it's going to zag. makes the difficult choice, does the messy thing, and the ending is... Tidy. Cute. It's almost cute. It's like, oh, we're going to use the same words. And I agree. We're writers.

It's like, yeah, you want to. Sometimes I'm lazy and I'm just like, this kicker works. There is nothing better than bringing back your opening line from the first paragraph into your closing. It's like, yeah, I've been telling a story this whole time, and you didn't even know it. So I understand the impulse, but that is, for me, that's a moment in the show where I was, yeah, almost like a little discipline. It's a hard, it's a hard story to end. He says that in his monologue, in his like crash, you know, on stage comedy set.

He's like, I don't know how to end this. Yeah. And then he plays his little whopper, bopper condoms, whatever. Something we should also talk about is the comedy. of this series, which exists in two ways. I think that you would define this as a dark comedy. Yes. Or a black comedy.

There is the comedy of watching it. There is also Donnie's comedy within the show. Which I've been told by my editor, Justin Sales, who watched some of his actual comedy on YouTube that's still up. And he's like, no, that's what he was actually. He was doing prop, cringe, fringe humor that is just like, as his co-workers are like, is this supposed to be funny? Yeah, it was hard to find funny.

There were occasions where it kind of hit, but that was watching that, but he is supposed to be a failing comedian. I put it on 1.5 speed anytime, because I was like, I don't got time for this. That's right. You know, it is supposed to be like that. It's supposed to be cringe, and he is supposed to be a failing comedian. But what did you think about, like, the comedy of the show itself? Did you find the series funny? Not at all.

At all. Not at all. All right. So here's the thing. We'll get into it. I think a series can be everything that we're saying. It is brave. It's experimental.

He's going places. I was surprised. He took me on a journey. You can take me on the bravest journey possible. And I could get to the end of it and be like, I'd never want to go back there again. And artistically, I don't even know if this is something that, like, appeals to me. And I think I had the opposite response that you did.

When I watched this, I was like, oh, it makes perfect sense. Even if Netflix didn't know it, it makes perfect sense why this is popular. Really? When I watch it because I'm like, it has every,

like it's almost like a microcosm of culture, where it is like, all right. Not a microcosm of culture. Just of, no, of 2024. And it's like,

I was talking, I was on the watch talk with Chris Ryan about the Drod Carmichael show and I was like, it has that comedian dry now where everybody's like, every comedian must have the best insurance now because we're like,

we're being radically honest. I'm telling you warts and all. And I'm just like, all right, man, but I kind of want to go back to the days where I knew less about y'all. Yeah, and like, remember when we had editors, you know? Like, remember when you called this down? Yeah, it's like, like the seven episodes is everything. I was like, at some points it was like, I kind of want to know what the movie version of this is.

Oh, I actually, I was saying editors about like current comedians. I disagree. I find it very sharp. To me, it feels like something from a one-man show, Edinburgh French Fest, that was done over and over and over and got culled down to the sort of sharpest version of itself. But that was even like the narration of him and being like this voice over all that stuff. I was just like, that's something that I can almost tell you took from the one-man show. And I'm like, that works because if it's a one-man show and it's like, live. It's like you have to describe a lot. But even in watching the show, structurally, I'm like, structurally, this is, to your point, I'm like, this is perfect. Like, you can tell he

workshopped this to know the beats. But I'm when I'm like, I'm watching something and he's telling me how he feels. And I'm like, I think in a, in a TV show, I'm just like, that annoys me almost because I'm just like, you guys are actually good enough actors. I'm like, I know that Donnie feels like a piece of shit. And I kind of can intuit why, how he's just like, what's my relationship with Martha? Oh, I just had sex with her. Oh, I'm struggling to have sex with. Terry, I'm doing all this.

And he would say, he's like, well, I feel bad now. And I'm like, I can tell you feel bad now. Like, it's just that wasn't working for me. And I think also there was the true crime element of it where this felt like a very Netflix show to me where it's like, Gad had to come out basically. be like, hey, can you guys stop trying to find the real-life version of these characters? Like, a lot of times, he's like, the fans were either getting it wrong or blaming people that they shouldn't.

And I'm like, no, this is a Reddit sleuth show in the Netflix style that I don't know if it was meant to be. Like, I don't think he made this as a one-man show one day thinking, like, yo, people are going to be on Reddit and TikTok trying to break this down and like, what's going to have And that was the thing that almost made me a little bit queasy about it, where I was just like, no, this is coming from a brave and honest place. I just don't know if, like, TV as a medium and Netflix as the delivery system was the best thing for this story.

Because it just, like, at the end, I was just like, well, it was entertaining every episode. I was just like, well, what true crime shit's going to happen next episode? But it left me feeling... hollow is what I would say. That is so, and I do wonder what the reception of this show would be like on a different streaming platform, you know, if it had come out not on Netflix because I do think the like very large and wily Netflix audience is primed for watching true crime or watching a true story and then heading over to Reddit and see what's going down. I didn't have that experience.

And I'm a true crime girlie, and I'll head my ass right over to Reddit if I want to. But I found this story, other than the last minute, which I did miss, to be so complete that I don't know. I mean, I wasn't curious about the reality of it, sort of. And that seems to be pretty alone to me. It seems like most people who've watched it then want to know who the real. people are. I think the real world Martha has already kind of come out. People are on her personal Facebook and she is, from what I understand, on her personal Facebook responding. Martha's available. I think that the sort of director, you know, creator, who sexually assaulted in the show and in real life

has been more of a mystery and that's why Gad more specifically had to come out and say like people are targeting people that I've worked with that are not the issue. It's a strange reaction to the series. And I don't think Gad had that intention, but I also think that it's like in kind of like, not an ironic way, but I'm like, that is kind of what the show is about, where it is like, the thing that makes, that made Gad successful in real life and Donnie's successful in real life is when he breaks down at a comedy festival and he finally reveals to an audience,

he's finally vulnerable. He's not doing the cringe shit, the fringe comedy anymore, the anti-comedy. He's like, no, this is what, he's doing a stand-up routine that is like,

was it funny? But like, that, it kind of reminded me of shit that, like, not to bring up, when I watched, Ruth Daniel, where it's like, that obviously is not a stand-up

about sexual assault or abuse or whatever, but it is about, like, I haven't been able to tell an audience about something that has been eating away at me. I'm going to tell this. And a lot of people walked away from Ertanio would be like, was that funny? And I was just like, it's not lost on me that for Gad to get successful, he basically had to use one of the most traumatic points in his life and get so real.

And that has now thrust him to a place where it's like, you do that for his video, gets posted, I think, without his consent. Then it turns into a one-man play, and now it's Netflix, and it's like we're so far removed from it. When people are getting it, I'm like, oh, no, I can understand how, even if I'm gad, I'm just like,

fame is weird. At one point he quit, like, the Donny character quits comedy, and I'm just like, oh, that is kind of the other thing. It's just not a show about, like, sexual assault and abuse. It's about, like,

what does fame do to us? What is the need for it, celebrity? what's his attention, what happens when we get it? Because Donnie, when he finally gets the attention, he stops going to the comedy shows. He stops,

he's just like, I don't, he backs away. There's something that he doesn't like about it. And if I'm dead, I would be very fascinating to be like, career-wise, baby reindeer was worth it. But now all this stuff is happening again.

Martha is back. Like, it's, everybody is just like, weirdly, he's getting strong. docked all over again, but in a very modern internet way of a bunch of random people out of the internet are harassing his family and friends now, which is what the show is about. And it's just such a misinterpretation of the show, which is unfortunate, but I think any

creator knows that you cannot guide an audience towards receiving your art in the exact way that you want them to. But I think one of the, you know, bravest, wildest swings that the show makes is that, you know, it's very popular to have this narrative of like, well, something went viral and now that person's famous and it's great. This show barely blinks at him going viral and it being great. And then immediately down the, you know, Martha gets his phone number, it goes down the drain immediately. Like there is the briefest moment of happiness from being.

scene, but that's what he talks about with his desire for fame when he first goes within the show when he goes to the French Fest where he's failing and ultimately meets this show creator, is that he wants fame because he wants it in place of being known. If he can be famous, then people will know him for that and they won't know him for all of the things that he sees as deep and dark and bad about himself. And that's what he ultimately says in that monologue breakdown is that he loved Terry. He found a safety and a realness in her, but he could not love anything more than he loved hating himself. And you realize that that's what you've been watching is just a man grappling with hating himself and that fame, in fact, does not take that away.

and you don't leave the series with a man who doesn't hate himself. Like, they don't solve it. And maybe that's season two. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigued, ask your doctor about Zepbound, terse appetite. The first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet

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Taking Zep bound with a sulfonel urea or insulin may cause low. low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsened kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99 or visit setbound.lily.com. This show, I think the complicated feelings I have about it is, I'm like, it has that prestige element of your, I'm like, all the great white men, white characters of prestige.

Even like, isn't it interesting that white men hate themselves? and I'm just like not as interesting as you think it is, but it gets a couple episodes out of me. Completely agreed, Charles. I mean, like, a show about a self-hating white man is so hard for me to get on board with. I'm like, oh, they're mad and they're upset. How interesting.

I found this such a more interesting depiction of it was kind of why I liked it. Well, that's why I think, like, I agree, but I think when it rounded back to it in the back half, I was a little bit like episode six or seven, I was just like, there were parts of it that I liked, but I was like, oh, this is a TV show. And a TV show has to end in a different way

than a one-man show or a viral video where I don't know. I just like a show that was so not interested in being easy or digestible and being so raw in kind of like its first half ending in a place where I was just like, well, that's tidy. Well, that was the Netflix way to do it. Just, I'm just like, as a critic, I'm like,

yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, as a critic, I'm not a – I'm not a critic. I am not above or below just being like, I had a good time. How about you? You know, like I think – You had a good time. Jody, Jody. All right. Let me sort through my thesaurus and see if good is the word that I want to go with. Entertaining, maybe, enthralled? Oh, yeah. But for me, being enthralled is a good time. Yeah, I did. I had a – I wasn't enthralled? I had a good time. You were not enthralled. If I was not doing this podcast, I would have stopped at episode one.

Also because, like, this is the thing that it's still a comedy, even if I wasn't laughing. And it had the type of comedy that is so hard for me to watch, which is, like, I can do cringe comedy. Like, I can watch something that, like, Nathan Fielder does. But this was almost, like, one step where I'm just like, this is so cringe that it's like, I was uncomfortable. I was just like, I don't want to. to be uncomfortable at 10 p. And it's also, I don't watch any true crime shit. Yeah.

Because I'm just like, bro, I don't know. White people are crazy. I don't need this shit in my fucking life. And it's like this show had that feeling of just like, whenever I'm like hanging around like people who watch a lot of true crime, they'll be like walking down and they're just like, yo, world's so dangerous. I'm like, motherfucking not to me, bro. Oh, I don't, like, I don't, I think I am in fact numbed by true crime.

It's like, yeah, well, I'm going to die one day. It might be by murder. I'm just going to, like, walk out. Really? I never think of these things. I'm just like... No, I have no... Just as a person, I have, like, very low, like, safety recall.

I am, like, not a safe person. I will walk on any dark street, any time. You're not sharing your location with the home girls, making sure you get home safely? Oh, my God, Jody? If you paid me a million dollars right now, I couldn't learn how to share my location. You saw me trying to get on this mic earlier.

I don't have the technological prowess to be a... safe person in the world anymore. Don't say this because the Jody stalkers out there are just like, damn, they see something in you where they're like, she's not sharing her location with her girlfriend? Luckily, I'm a much meaner person than Richard Gad or Donnie, so I will love it. You're the dad? You're just like. Yeah, I'm the dad.

I'll cut your fucking legs off. So wait, let's do it because I always like to, you know, we get very critical on prestige TV. Out of 10, what would you give this show? Be honest. I know. I'm trying to be more of a critic. I'm trying to bring it down.

Don't bring it down. I'd give it an eight and a half out of ten. What? Yeah. What? There's nothing about, I thought, and it's, this is what I walked away from it thinking. This is such a unique show. I just, I hadn't seen, obviously it reminded me of a few other things.

It's like a Netflixier, flea. flea bag. It reminded me at times, not in structure or like genre, but of made. Also... Some people are saying, like, how I may destroy you.

Right. Yes. These... There are other complicated depictions of abuse that really get into it. I think made is like one of the most

incredible shows I've ever seen and it also really gets into this that the terrible question that's always asked why did you stay? Why did it take this long? And answers that question by saying it's complicated

and I'm a person and this is how I fucking dealt with it. And I really like that part of this show. I did at times I did find it funny. I found like the chemistry between Martha and Donnie.

Yes. Good. That's what kept me in episodes one through three to get to four is like, what the hell is going on here.

And I just, I watch a lot of TV. I don't walk away from a lot of shows being like, I've never seen that before. You're right to point out it is, it is like a white man who hates himself, but there's this. And I don't want to be dismissive. Like the show is, it doesn't stay there.

I think it's like, it ends there in a way that I felt a little cheating because I'm just like, this was way more complicated. And I think, and I just, I just think that is the medium. I think my concern about it is like,

Charles, how else are you going to end a limited series? To your point, he says, how do I end this story? And I'm just like, him kind of being like, oh, I'm back. Is he the next Martha? That's not really how, it's more complicated,

but I was like, well, I'm going to take my bags. And here's the thing. I will say, as, like I said, this show is brave. I'm happy it exists. I think Gad is like what he set out to do. what I watched. I was like, yeah, it is fearless.

It is all of these things. I think it is important. I just think there's a viewer at a 10. Probably on my meanest day would probably be a 3 out of 10. Holy shit, Charles. And on a nicer day, maybe a 5 or 6. And I just said that is just me being like, Charles, every episode was you not being like,

I want to watch the next episode. I was like, can I just go back to watching a fucking shitty anime about, you know, two people falling in love and getting coffee together. And it's like that's... And it's not that. It's about tea and stalking. Yeah, and it's also just like...

I was getting to the point where I was just like, I don't know how many times I can watch Donnie basically descend into hell and people hurt this man. Because like the empathy part of me was just like, what is... Girl, his ex does kind of just like takes him in and just like, yo, man, you just let's get. get you out of here. I wanted to hug Donnie. I'm like, I want to be like, hey, Donnie,

let's get you out of here. And like, me as a viewer, I was like, I don't know, man, I can't. I'm like, I had to see Martha abuse him and then, and then this show creator, and then the complicated sex between Martha and Donnie and then what Donnie does to tear. Right. And then that trickles down and harms the women in his life. You know, his ex gets, what could have been acid in her face was in fact Diet Coke in her face. His current girl, girlfriend, Terry, gets harmed in all of this. And that's a difficult thing. Yeah, the cycle of abuse is certainly a difficult thing to watch.

Watch for seven episodes. So I, cycles of abuse, having them depicted in this way, I think is important. I think it pushes the art form forward. I don't think you're wrong. Maybe I'm just a hater. This is just, I was like, you know what? Shout out Bill Simmons. I don't know.

He watched all seven episodes. But next time I see him, I'm like, bro, what did you sign me up for? The, my cat was not happy. Oh, well, we do hate that. But Charles, I think maybe you're going to keep thinking about this show. I think it might, I think it might linger. No, we are compartmentalizing this. We're about shout out our producer, Devin.

Because, yo, Devin B, once this mic shuts off, I guarantee you, I will never think about Baby Rainier again. I'm putting it in a place. And I'm just like, glad I had the experience. I'm going to go eat some mango and then file a fucking 3,000 word piece on fucking Kenjik Lamar. Because that's what happens when you're in the content minds. Well, I'm glad that we watched it. I'm glad I got to talk about it with you.

And we appreciate you listening to this freewheeling conversation about a very non-freewheeling show that, Charles, if you want to avoid it or not think about it, I think you need to stay off Netflix for a few weeks because it shows no sign. of slowing down too soon. It's a phenomenon. It's a phenomenon. Thank you, producer Devon. Thank you, Charles. We will see you back here on the Prestige TV podcast.