The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Barry’ Season 3, Episode 3 Recap With Bill Hader

Episode Date: May 9, 2022

Sean is joined by creator and star Bill Hader to discuss Season 3, Episode 3 of HBO’s ‘Barry.’ How does the filmmaking link episodes beyond the way the writing does? Plus: Now that we’re three episodes through the third season, does Hader still view the show as a comedy? Host: Sean Fennessey Guest: Bill Hader Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The goal, explain the 1990s in exactly 60 songs. The result, we did it. I'm Rob Arvilla. I host 60 songs that explain the 90s, which has, indeed, covered 60 fantastic songs thus far from Tupac to Radiohead to TLC. So let's do 30 more. Let's do 90 songs. No, we're not changing the name. More rad songs.

More special guests. More astute critical analysis. More loopy nostalgic exuberance. That's 60 songs that explain the 90s every Wednesday only on spot. It's time to refresh your yard during spring backyard days at the Home Depot. Get low prices guaranteed on propane grills starting at $179, like the next grill three-burner gas grill. Or get $50 off a select Weber Spirit grill and bring big flavor to your backyard. Then set the scene with Hampton Bay string lights that bring it all together.

Shop spring backyard days for seven days at the Home Depot. Now through May 6th. Exclusion supplies to home depot.com slash price match for details. You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet. How much did we save? Enough. Enough to get lost.

Or you could book a stay with Hilton. Welcome to your oceanfront room. Just steps from the water. The Hilton sale is on now. Book on Hilton.com or the Hilton app and save up to 20% to get the stay you expected. When you want savings, not surprises. It matters where you stay.

Hilton, for the stay. I'm Sean Fennacy and this is the Prestige TV podcast. Today we're talking about the third episode of the third season of Barry and we're doing so with the star and co-creator of the show Bill Hater. Let's dive into our chat. We're back recapping Barry, season three, episode three. Ben Mendelssohn is the name of the episode. We're here with Bill Hater. Bill.

I want to talk about Ben Mendelssohn and all the really funny jokes in this episode. But I am wondering, having gotten to the end of it, is this show still a comedy? in your eyes? I never see it as like a comedy or a drama or anything. You know, it's just kind of, it's a comedy by the virtue that's 30 minutes, you know. And there's some very funny stuff in it, but when you're trying to write, do things and make it feel truthful, you know, it's going to, you know, it's kind of like we were talking about in the last episode that seemed of Barry and Kusno on the couch, you know, there was the version of that that was funny. and then there's a version of it that's like, well, this is probably the more truer version of it, you know?

And so you're constantly, you know, trying to do that and seeing what, which, and sometimes we go too far one way and we'll start to dial it back in the performance or in the writing or even in the editing where it's like, let's just cut from here to here. So we, you know, this part is feeling a little too raw, you know. And the same with the comedy. Sometimes we do stuff that's just too. broad and then we try to take it back.

So at the start of this episode, it seems like all the characters are desperately trying to hold things together. You know, Barry and Gene are going to perform together on this TV show, Laws of Humanity, incredible title. Hank and the Chechens, they have to respond to the Bolivians raid that we saw in the last episode. Sally has to promote her show in the face of this pushed up release date. And Barry is kind of melting down.

Fuchs has to potentially face his fate. when you're when you're building out episodes are you looking for the characters to kind of be aligned thematically or like the tension that they're feeling now that the cast has gotten to the place where it is yeah i mean that kind of happens with each draft you know where we will kind of go well what's everybody going through and is this interesting or not and you know i think earlier one of the i think maybe the first episode of this we talked about how i uh We did reshoots, you know, because we wrote things wrong. And specifically, I wrote things really wrong in some instances.

I'll take all the blame. But, you know, and that, in this episode has a couple of things that were just not, you know, it wasn't really on target. And one was the Hank stuff in this. You know, the way you see Noho Hank and they're in the tent and it's like, we've been hit and he's like, we got to, you know, activate the Patsy and all that. Initially, it was about Hank feeling like he had to tell the other two guys that he was in a relationship with Cristobal. Because when we decided that we wanted to do that, we thought it was interesting that he would have to like come out to those guys. And this is what I mean by like, you go, oh, that's an interesting scene.

Let's write that scene. And it was interesting and their acceptance of him. And it was kind of funny how they were like, yeah, no shit and all that stuff. But it wasn't on target for what the episode was. So it's like it was shot. And then you saw it. And then it really took Ali Greer and Frankie Gutman, our editors, who were like, so why aren't,

wouldn't they be freaked out because they were just hit in the last episode? And it was like, you're right. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, why are we talking about this? You know? And it happened with Sally's

stuff as well where it was just all, it was just the same joke kind of over and over again of her sitting there, tired, getting, you know, all these people coming in, asking her the same question over and over. And then I think the thing that we had in there was that Darcy Cardin's character goes,

well, look, why can't you just do this? And she brings up her laptop, and it's the woman from Pam at a, at a, at the, doing press. And she's like drinking a thing. And she's like, what's up, bitches? You know, she was just, and like, it's the same interviewers and they're laughing. And I have a great time, because she's like a party and Sally's like, I'm not like that. I'm not, you know, this is, I'm a serious artist and all that stuff. And when you saw it cut together, it just kind of laid there. It was kind of like, this isn't really her problem. Like, it seems like she's not threatened by Pam or anything.

It seems like she just wants to promote the show. It seems like now the issue is, is, and again, this is the editor is talking, He's like, isn't more of the issue Katie seeing what had happened with Barry yelling at her? And shouldn't that be kind of more of like, and I remember Emma Barry saying, I feel like what I want here is a scene between Katie and Natalie because Natalie knows Barry. And she's like, hey, what? I'm afraid of Barry, you know? And it was like, yeah, you guys are 100% right. You know, we got caught up and the idea of, oh, this is so hard.

funny like it's a whole thing as less as more you know it was just the same joke over and over and over again and um and so we cut we cut it all we cut it to those you know it's like two people on one person off camera you know um i feel like we hear about reshoots on like marvel movies and Jurassic park movies but we don't really hear about it on series television or smaller or dramas or things like that. I mean, does it, do you risk big pieces kind of falling out of place

and things getting tangled and messed up when you start doing that kind of work after you've completed a season? No, it's the opposite. You're solidifying it. It's kind of like you shot it and then you put it together and you realize like,

oh, these things I thought were important or not important. They're like on their own interesting scenes, but they're not part of the, the arc you just it's stuff you don't care about like you're asking the question of um well you know the oblivion sit to Chechens what's going to happen barry yelled at sally what's katy going to do like these are the questions everybody's asking themselves and not um you know like how are yonder and ockmall going to take it when they find out Hank is is gay You know what I mean?

Like it's a nice sweet scene, but it didn't, it didn't push the story forward, you know? So, yeah, it was like we reshot all that and then, and then, you know, reshot stuff like the scene with Natalie and Katie and then Katie afterwards when the woman's talking to her and it's like, oh, so Sally isn't in a relationship, you know, and and it became that storyline became Katie's story, you know, much less than the Sally's story, you know.

One question I was asking myself as I was watching this episode is do you guys discuss how far is too far with Barry murdering people, not because of the violence or anything like that

but because at a certain point there would be like an APB for a serial killer in Los Angeles. He's killed a lot. of people at this point and he you by the end of the episode you see him going back to it like he's going to take on more work yeah i think it's because uh for the most part with the exception of those two guys at the beginning and then it's all crime based so it's all people who you know it's the monastery those are all criminals that's a heroin deal wrong you know that so that that that was always kind of the thing of like it's people who were kind of already in a thing you know and then you know chris is a suicide as far as everybody's concern janice moss is because she was you know for everybody's concern is the chechens you know so he's been able to kind of cover his tracks but this season by him killing those two guys at the beginning you know that and but they're buried you know they're up they they dug their own hole and then you

He shoots them and, you know, I assume they're, you know, they're never going to find those two guys, you know? And so, uh, so yeah, you know, he's, it, like on a logic level, it never bumped me. The thing that does bump me is when he's doing stuff outside, uh, Ronnie Lilly episode, we had him in a mask and stuff because he had to be hiding himself because that, that would be bad, you know. Right. Then that also is twofold. It works well because then I don't have to do stunts because I would like break my back immediately. But, but it is true though. Like that's more of a thing of like, okay, well, there'd be cameras everywhere and people would see it and stuff like that.

You know, but again, from all the true crime I watch, people can murder a lot of people. Fair point. Is this the same guy? I don't know. one of the things that um you know there's the the old trope about how in movies people have to change to finish the story and in tv people never change the characters have to stay the same in order to keep the show kind of on its feet and one of the things that's been interesting about barry this season is it feels like a lot of the characters are kind of regressing or returning

to you know their bad habits or who they always were and i mean do have you guys been talking about that and because i'm trying to figure out for barry in particular Is it like, is him killing people like addiction? Is it just a kind of fundamental part of him at this point? How much have you guys thought through some of those things? Well, that's kind of the big question. You know, that was a big question in season two. Like, is this a part of me?

You know? And, and can I get rid of this thing that is just, can I change my nature? Is this just a thing that this is a thing that gave me acceptance for the first time, gave me a community for the first time? So, you know, I think that that was more of an idea in that, you know, case. But I don't think, yeah, it's a question we ask ourselves over and over again, you know. I think right now this season, it's more about surviving and more about, it's more of a necessity, you know? It's like, here's the thing I'm good at is killing people.

so the beginning of the season, it's like, and at the end of this episode, it's like a resigned thing of like, well, this is what I'm good at. So, you know, forget it. Like, I, I'm hurting myself. But, you know, it's kind of like an alcoholic, you know. It's just kind of like I'm going back to this thing because this is, you know, or maybe that's not a good example. I remember one time someone was like, oh, yeah, it's like someone who's a classically strained, like, like, training. like trained actor who then moonlights and keeps it secret that they strip you know and and that like this this thing that they did for art and brought them a lot of joy and everything now

they're doing it in this kind of way that makes them feel bad about themselves not saying that all strippers feel bad about themselves but I'm saying it for a specific person you know And so that was one thing where it was kind of just like, what am I doing? You know, but anytime he does that, I always feel like that's where he's at his lowest, where it's like,

okay, I'll take a job. You know, that's when he, there's no hope in him. I have to be honest with you as I was thinking about doing this and I saw this episode and saw the very, very funny disdain for junketeering and promoting things.

I got a little bit, a little bit of, you know, self-loathing going on. And it's like, it's a weird thing, right? We can talk about how weird it is when you're promoting something as you are promoting the new season of your show to be constantly confronted with strangers who act like they know you and who ask you stupid questions like who should be the next Spider-Man. I assume that this is ripped so much from a lot of your experiences. Oh, yeah, it's very much from experiences I've had. But I don't consider what you do that, because I've been interviewed by you a couple of times.

And this is like an actual interview. You know what I mean? This is like, you're very thoughtful. But wait. But wait, who should be the next Spider-Man, though? Oh, Jesus Christ. Forget it. No.

But I think Ben Mendelssohn would be good. But I think it's like, oh, but you're very thoughtful. And, you know, it's like when I do, you know, certain podcasts and things like that, It's a different thing. Those junkets, the people have five minutes, you know, and, you know, and so when they go in, it is like a machine. Hi, how are you? You know, hi, how's it going?

So, you know, for this season so far, it's like, so, what's Barry's deal, you know? Cross that question off my list. What's Henry Winkler like? Did the pandemic affect things? And you go, oh yeah, or like when I did it too, it was like, hey, read, did you read the book? I could, I just knew it by wrote. They didn't have to speak English. It was like, did you read the book?

Did you see the first movie? When I did train wreck, it was, what was it like working with LeBron James? It was like, was LeBron James fun? And I just, I got, you know, you get asked those questions a billion times. You just, you know, you lose your mind. I always just wondered. I always asked. why can't this just be one big press conference?

And they asked the question, you see me. And they said, no, it's all about exclusivity. It's them with you. We got to sit down exclusively with the person. I need to feel special, Bill. I need to feel like I got something special. You're different. What you guys do at the ring are different.

I'm talking about, you know, it is that thing of, the Spider-Man thing came specifically from, I was promoting skeleton twins. And someone asked me about suicide because my character tries to commit suicide in that movie. And then said, cut me off as I was trying to give a thoughtful answer. And he said, I'm right out of time real quick. What do you think about Ben Affleck as Batman? I was like, oh, my God.

Jesus Christ. It's really tough. Um, let's talk a little bit more about, about this episode of the show. Um, obviously, Fuchs is still in Chechnya and they want him back to, what does it, activate the Patsy? Is that the phrase? Yeah, activate the Patsy. Yeah. So they, they, they made him go to, to Chechnya, uh, so they could use him as a Patsy you in case anything bad happens. And they, they tell everybody that he's the, the Raven, this, like, Chechen assassin that no one believe, everybody immediately, because the name's so stupid that no one believes it. And then and then and then

and then um, and then when ends up happening is they think they're just going to put him on ice up in Chechnya, but then what happens is he like gets really, he falls in love and loves and loves goats. He's really becomes like a goat.

I love the idea of that happening. Do you, is there a part of you the dreams about like wandering off to an Eastern European nation. No. No, but his thing is like, yeah, it's where the universe kind of wants him. You know, it's like, wow, this is happening.

And all he has to do is not be mad at Barry. All he has to do is have, no, Hank say, yeah, last time I saw Barry, he was on bad term. He was on bad, you know, he was in a bad place, you know, really fucked up. And he's like, no, I'm happy here, man. I'll see you later. And that's, if he just, if he just did that, he'd be great, you know. but it's like you can't. But that anger comes out of love, you know,

when you care about somebody or something, that's when that comes out, you know? And so, yeah, I love, that was my, I love doing that scene with Stephen where he calls me, when we yell at each other on the phone, it was just so fun, you know. And, uh, Emily Heller had the line, maybe I'm at the zoo with my,

my new best friend. I always, I think of, of Fuchs and Barry as kind of the Sam and Diane of this show. You know, there is this kind of like, will they or won't they patch it up, get back together. They are the ones that are kind of faded for each other that I always liked. Is it, is it weird to not have Stephen, like in your face through the first few episodes of the show? It feels like that's been a little bit different from how their first two seasons were. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, because it just worked out that way that he would be far away.

But, yeah, I mean, he's one of my favorite actors, so getting to work with him has just been such a treat. But he adds so much to that character that's not on the page, just like his, the way he moves. And this season again, there's a vulnerability to him this season, you know, like, he's really hurt by Barry. I'd be remiss if I did not say the words Mark Paul Gossler in our conversation. That was cool. That was cool. Why? Why him?

I just started casting director of Sherry Thomas said, what about him? And I just was like, oh my God, yeah, that'd be great. Would he do it? You know, and he did. And he was great. He was so funny. And he totally played it straight. and I just thought he was wonderful.

He's a great guy. We had a lot of fun shooting that day. It's a pretty critical scene, obviously, the decision that Gene makes in playing the scene. And I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. I'm still trying to wrap my head. I haven't watched ahead. I don't know what's coming next on this show.

Oh, yeah. And, you know, the decision to punch Barry. Yeah. Again, yeah, it's like you go, it'd be really good for him to be strong here, you know? And then he kind of immediately goes, oh my God, what did I do?

You know? But that was important, you know? That, that, that, uh, that I think the one of the most important scenes of the whole series is us in the, in the trailer.

Where he says, did she suffer? And, and Barry saying, look, we've both done bad things and, you know, and again, it's like, you can't, there's nothing interesting about Kusano. Kusano is like he's a narcissist and all these things, but, you know, you see that he actually does love his son and grandson very much. and that love incites violence. Do you know what I mean? To protect them,

it pushes him to that place. And I think that's a thing that you keep seeing over and over again this season, you know, and even later episodes of like intense love can push very nonviolent people to violence. And it's the thing I ask about myself, I think the writers we talk about it,

the actors we talk about it, like I don't consider myself a violent person but you know if somebody you know was hurting somebody I love like I don't yeah I don't know what I would do you know I you know so that is always an interesting question to me the the inherent violence in people has always been a thing that scares me you know that's a thing like that makes me a bit anxious and um and and And, and, but I also have a fascination of it. You know what I mean? And so, so I think that, that, that's what you're seeing in there is it's like,

oh, you know, it's very primal. You know, you see this guy who's just so narcissistic and he's such a dick. And then he, you realize how much he, if you push him in a corner about, you know, you threaten his son and grandson. And you kill the love of his life. even Kusino in a moment will strike out, you know? And, and, and then almost immediately when he calms down, realizing that maybe he just signed his death. Right.

Which that was a reshoot. That was a thing that when we watched it all cut together, we went, you know, it would be really nice to see him kind of realize what the fuck did I just do. you know, we don't really know how he feels, you know. It just ended with that scene and then you went on to the next scene. You're like, well, what's going on with Kusinau, you know? And so, yeah, we added that scene of him storming off and then kind of having a realization, like, what have I done? Let me ask you one last thing about this episode. So it, you know, it ends with this fable that is shared with, with Fuchs about this stolen farmland and the people who are turned into panther.

and this idea of, you know, retribution versus grace. And, you know, it's not a cliffhanger, but it is kind of a cliffhanger. It's obviously a tease for what's to come and what Fuchs takes from that story. So I wanted to ask you about, like, writing the end of episodes because it seems like a hard thing to do. And your show, I always get to the end and I'm like, fuck. Like, that's what I say when the episode ends, you know? I'm like, oh, that was good, you know?

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, when you're, you know, when you're, you're, you're working out the story. A lot of times I'm up at a whiteboard and everybody's kind of watching me and I'm kind of just putting scenes kind of haphazardly in order. And then just something, again, it's like kind of by feel, you just go, oh, it'd be great to end right here. You know? And sometimes there's more to it. And then we go, you know, sometimes the outline will have another scene and then you're writing it and you're feeling it out.

and you go, you know what, it should end here. You know, it just feels right. And this episode's actually pretty short. And I think, you know, I think that might have happened with this where it was like you heard Fuchs's story. And then there was some other stuff that kind of got pushed over into episode four. It kind of just felt like, oh, this is more of a cliffhanger. And you're asking yourself a question. and he seemed to have made a decision that's kind of making you a little bit off a little bit

you know hopefully nervous um but that that tends to you know again it's just what's going to happen next you know and also what has like a feeling of um of what you're describing of that you know you want to i like that i love when stuff does that you know when you just are like oh my god you know I mean, one of my favorite endings to a movie is a serious man. You know, like, where you see that. My favorite of all time. Yeah, you see that tornado coming and it's like, whoa. And then cut.

And then you cut to black, you know, you, you know, it, it brings up, yeah, it just gives you a feeling that's really, you know, I just love that, you know. And I think it's just kind of, those are the things I enjoy. But, you know, and again, the editors are very good at that too. Frankie and Allie, they walk through and make sure that these things are all landing. And another big person that's about the endings that help is Dave Wingo or composer, because he can kind of modulate it a bit with music and hit those cues just right. So it feels like it gives you that feeling, you know. It's really, it's really working.

That actress did a great job. She came in one day and had to do a whole monologue. You just come in. You're, I mean, that's a lot to give somebody who, you know, doing kind of a small part and she just knocked it out of the park. And then I also, in this episode, my favorite scene in it, well, I love the scene with me and Henry a lot, the scene of us in the trailer, but I thought Alec did a great job directing that.

But I love the scene between Darcy and Natalie and Katie, where she's saying, where she's like, oh, Barry, you know, he yelled at us a couple of times. And I think he, I guess he killed a bunch of people in some war. And just the look on Elsie's face, I laugh so, so hard every time that happened. And that's, I also got to give props to both those actors. I mean, obviously, but Elsie's so funny because she knows, you know, the look on her face. You know, she knows to turn out at the end and look concerned.

Like, that's all just, you know, she just knows how to play to the camera. And the same thing with Darcy, she knows to write as she's about. to go out of frame to hit like he you know her timing i remember after we shot that we walked away and we're like darcy cardin's timing is impeccable and that is something you can't teach like she just understands exactly like just watch that scene again and watch her timing and that she knows she's timing it specifically for a shot um that the camera is moving in and she knows when she isn't off when she's off camera you know um it's pretty remarkable.

I mean, I think power of good casting too, though. I mean, you got her pre the good place and now she's a person that everybody loves. And now you have her on your show in this role. It's kind of genius. She was my, she was our nanny,

you know, forever. Oh, right. Yeah, you had told that. Yeah. Darcy's like family to me.

Her and her husband, Jason, are just like family to me and, you know, Maggie Carey and our children. And so, you know, they're,

they're a huge huge part of our lives. So to me, it's like working with a member of my family, but it is just totally insane. When we were watching that, even at the monitors,

I mean, I was crying, laughing because it is so, you know, and it's also, again, it helps in that thing of like the excuses people make

for this kind of shit, you know, where it's like, oh, I wouldn't worry about him. He's great. I mean, he did yell at this.

You know, again, it's this idea of consequences. Like, Barry doesn't think about the consequences. Like, oh, yeah, season one, he yelled at everybody. And, like, he screamed at everybody during that Macbeth thing. And it's like, oh, yeah, he did do that. But he's, oh, he, and also, she says a very important wine in that is she keeps them around because, you know, he treats her like a star.

You know, and that's, like, a very important thing, I think, about people always like, why are they together? And it's like, you know, and season. one when when Barry comes up to Sally and she goes, do you think I'm going to be a star? And he says, like, a movie star? Like, absolutely. And then she kisses him. That's the first time they kiss.

I mean, that's, that, that kind of tells you what it is. He's never seen, he thinks she's the greatest actress who's ever lived because he's never seen or known an actress before, you know, and she is really talented,

but he's just kind of in awe of her in that way. You know, and I think that, you know, she needs that on some level. So it's like, bring me flowers at work. You know, look, you know, it's like keeping up appearances. And, and, yeah. Bill, you treated me like a star on this pod. Oh, thank you, Sean. Well, we'll be back with episode four next week.

Thank you, man. Bye, guys. Thanks to Bill Hader. Thanks to our producer Bobby Wagner for his work on today's episode. If you dug this conversation, please join us right here next. Sunday on the Prestige TV pod. Bill and I will be back to talk about episode four of Barry's third season. We'll see you then.