The Prestige TV Podcast - Barry’ Season 3, Episode 4 Recap With Bill Hader

Episode Date: May 16, 2022

Sean Fennessey and Bill Hader are back to discuss season 3, episode 4 of HBO’s ‘Barry.’ Sean and Bill discuss how they title episodes of the show, what goes into the decision to revisit the past while writing, the films that influenced Bill while writing the show, and more. Host: Sean Fennessey Guest: Bill Hader Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm Sean Fennacy and this is the Prestige TV podcast. Today we're talking about the fourth episode of the third season of Barry, and we're doing so with the star and co-creator of the show, Bill Hader. Let's dive into our chat. We're back with Bill Hater. We're talking about episode four, season three of Barry. The name of this episode is All the Sources. The episode titles are good.

Can we just start with that? How do you guys land on that? Is it after you've completed the episode? Yeah, that actually, that was not that, you know, that's very, very late in the game when you'll get an email from HBO saying, hey, we need episode titles. And I think I kind of put them together. And then pretty much are just the ones I kind of came up with off the top of my head.

And then actually my assistant, Alyssa Donovan, who's very funny, came up with the title of episode seven. because I couldn't figure out what episode seven should be and so she was like oh what if it's this and I was like oh yeah that's great

we'll have to circle back when we get to episode seven so this episode opens kind of a cold open on a woman having a phone call with her husband who is not in their home and she's just getting home

and we quickly learn that this is a flashback to somewhat recent history and then the husband is assassinated by Barry and then later in the episode we see quickly

that Fuchs is visiting Ryan's father and these kind of ghosts of Barry's past are being dredged up. Reminded me a little bit of the Scott Pilgrim Evil X's, Bill, you know, this idea of activating the past against a character. Can you talk about just like the decision to dredge up the victims of the past for Barry? Yeah, the, you know, that the shot at the beginning when the guy comes out, You know, it's the very first shot of the pilot. When Barry comes out of the bathroom and you see the guy that was the very first shot of the pilot. And so we always, you know, like, again, this will probably come up a lot when we're doing these. Like that first day of writing, we kind of came in with a bunch of ideas.

And one of them that Liz Sarnoff and I have been talking about was what if, Fuchs goes back to the families of Barry's victims as a way of showing the consequences of what he's done, you know? And I thought it would be interesting to show, like, the guy at the very, the pilot, and it's just any other show, here's the, you know, the dead body that you see all the time in movies and TV and stuff.

What if that guy had a wife and a kid he loved and they loved him and, you know, and that their lives had been completely ruined by what Barry's done. And it was kind of the stuff we talked about in the last episode about, you know, with Henry hitting Barry,

it's this idea of love, and if you love something so strong, how that can turn to violence, you know, if, you know, in that very primal, thing and, you know, it's just something I'm interested, I've always been interested in. So that was kind of the idea of what if Fuchs's ideas to kind of, yeah, weaponize these people. And then it became a bigger conversation, people in the, you know, writers room going like,

okay, well, that's a very bleak view of humanity that everybody would become violent and these things. But, you know, I think for the purposes of the show, each of their, these people that he weaponizes, the results are all kind of different. One of the things that's interesting that comes out of it is you see kind of the messiness of all of the reactions of the people that Fuchs is visiting. You know, some of them are not exactly what you would expect. It's not this typical genre storytelling where a moment like this happens. and then you think the revenge activator takes over and it's just like, I must kill, you know, like each of these characters.

Well, how do you decide that? Well, I was telling Annabeth Gish and, you know, the other actors in those scenes, you know, and Alec and I were very important that, you know, this is more about trauma. It was less about being badass. Again, don't put the genre in it. You know, it's more of the trauma, you know,

of what they've gone through and thinking, you know, at the end of this episode, like, this will make the pain go away. And, you know, you've seen that before. I remember talking the room, you know, there was that guy who, I remember seeing it. You know, this is one of the things that really struck me. I remember watching. There's a story, I want to say in the 80s of this kid's karate teacher had kidnapped this kid and taken him to a hotel and they couldn't be found.

manhunt for him and when they found him and the kid got back to his kid luckily was alive and it was a boy and the boy got back to his family but it was very clear that this karate instructor had was obsessed with him and had you know molested him and all this and there was just awful story and there's news cameras showing the the karate instructor as he's being i think extradited back to wherever they were from and he's in handcuffs and he's walking past all all these, this phone bank. And a guy with a hat is on a cell phone, on a pay phone. And it turns around and it's the kid's father and he shoots him.

And he shot him on television, like people were watching the news and they saw this guy get shot. And that father's, and again, I saw that and it was really terrifying because it was real. And I've been watching movies and movies. it stylized. There's something cool about it. And instead, I just saw this person in pain. He shoots the guy. And then he drops the gun and he just puts his hands up in his hair.

And you hear people going, why did you do that? Why did you do that? Because people knew who they, you know, some of the officers knew he was. Like, why did you do that? And he killed the guy. And you just, that pain, you know, was as always, yeah, It's just something that's, I find really chilling. I found that footage incredibly chilling, but it is always stuck with me.

And so I think I remember that rolling around in there of like, you know, no, it's more that, you know, than like, yeah, Scott Pilgrim. You, you, by the same token, though, maybe I think of something like that, because in an episode like this, even though you're channeling this trauma from these characters, these characters, like we've never seen Annabeth Gish on. the show before. And she's somebody who we recognize and we immediately have like an empathy for her character in that story. Within a minute, Fred Melamede shows up and he's Gene's agent and he's mentioning all the names that he's been called in the business over the years. And so you're doing this like lily pad dance between this very heavy material and this super funny stuff with these, you know, great character actors. I probably could ask you this in every episode, but that seems like a really hard dance to nail. Well, I think it's by virtue of like,

what the setup of the story is. We set up that very early in the pilot that this world, we led with that first shot that you saw, which is, and this was by design, the first shot should not be funny. The pilot buried coming out of a bathroom and you see a dead body and it should be shocking. and his kind of reaction to that body or non-reaction to the body should also tell you a story, you know. It's also kind of chilling too.

The blood really pours out of the head. It's like a very visceral moment. Yeah, yeah. And that's based on like finding footed like pictures of real people have been shot and making it look as real as real as possible. So it's kind of like saying to me like, we're going to lead with that. and then let the comedy come behind it in a very real way with these characters. And then you just do it, you know, and some things work together and they don't. But I think the whole kind of, you know, premise of the show is this guy who should live in the shadows.

The universe is like, you should live in the shadows and be violent. And he's like, no, I want to be nonviolent and live in the spotlight. And in the spotlight, you know, are people like, Gene Cousineau, you know, in Hollywood. And, you know, and so I think just by that, you're able to kind of go back and forth. But we never think about it, you know, like, oh, this is hard. It's just kind of like, well, this is what the show is. And, yeah, I don't know.

I don't know what it is. I mean, I definitely, I love it that when Henry opens the door that Gene's just there, that a friend melamette tom pussarro was just standing in um and then that was a fun thing of all the things that people used to call call him and uh duffy budra came up with stone cold buster which was the one that made me laugh the hardest like stone cold buster and the way that fred mellamette says that i was like well we have to cut out on stole cobalbuster it's just that was the thing when we were in the edit we were just walk around saying stold cobalbuster all the time I had no idea that Fred was going to be on this show, but I think in the last episode,

we talked about a serious man and the ending of a serious man. So there's some nice connectivity there. I mean, yeah, there's no way me not, you know, when we were trying to cast that part, Sherry Thomas, you know, our great casting director was like, what about Fred Melamed? And I loved him as a serious man. And I also loved him as Larry David's therapist, my herb who who yeah who has all these famous patients but he doesn't want to say he's like I have a patient

you know who frequents prostitutes I don't want to say who he is but let's just say he created Star Wars and Larry's like wait are you telling people about me you know and he's like no no no you know and he's

it was just very funny but yeah yeah so I just I've always loved Fred Melameda and he's such a wonderful guy, very warm guy. And, and I want to bring up Andrew Leeds too, who plays Leo. He's a great actor and always is, you know, he's kind of, again, Kusno, it's good for him to have a conscience, you know, someone who's talking since in a scene and he's definitely

that guy. He seems like the most real person on the show, honestly. Yeah, yeah, he's the one guy that's kind of, uh, has a, a son and he's you know divorced and he's just trying to figure his shit out. Something interesting about him, if you go back and

watch episodes one and two, his scenes in episodes four and five were part of the reshoot. And he was doing another project and he had a beard.

And so he couldn't cut the beard. So in episode one and at the end of episode two when he's talking to us when you gene comes home and he finds me there that is a digital effect his beard that is a CG beard and it looks pretty amazing wow we shot those he had no beard and we couldn't it was like well you know they were like well maybe we try to make it give him a shave and we make it look like he has no beard and it's like well maybe it's easier if we give him a beard in the earlier episodes so Is there room in the budget for something like that when something like that comes up?

Or is it like, oh, we need 50 grand to give him a beard? I just don't even think about it. I just say, if we can do that, that would be great. I don't, I try not to, if I thought about all that, I would just, yeah, I would never leave my room. Watching Fred and Henry talk and kind of once again, like, mythologize Henry's character, I feel like this season has been a lot about kind of talking. about Gene's past and talking about what a terrible person he's been over the last 20 or 30 years. It did have me wondering, like, was there an inspiration for Gene or, like, stories that you were pulling from for that character? Because now I feel like we're learning a lot more about

the arc of his life. Yeah, I mean, I don't think, I mean, there's so many people like that in Hollywood, but never, like, a very specific person, you know. I mean, I remember when I was a PA, there was always those actors, you know, when I was a production assistant. that it would be like, you know, you don't want to work with so-and-so. And then as you become an actor, I think Sally has the line, like, Life's Too Shortlist.

Like, I know a couple of casting directors are like, oh, that person's in the Life Too Short list, you know. And Gene is firmly in the Life's Too Shortlist, you know. And it's like, but I think it was important for us to show, again, this was kind of happening organically of, you know, Gene and Barry having these parallel stories of trying to have forgiveness for being shitty people. And they both have pasts that are pretty bad.

And so, I mean, obviously, Berries is worse. But I think it allowed us to have nice moments like in episode 3 when Barry's like, you know, we're the same, you know, because that's the only. way Barry and his denial can kind of understand what he's doing, you know. So, and again, this is all kind of ignited from love and violence. And this stuff, kind of this ball starts rolling, and you see this cycle happen that you kind of see throughout history, you know? This is a thing that's kind of, you know, it's like to begin in 2001, you see the, you know, the whole old opening with the apes is like the birth of violence.

You know, this thing wants another thing. And it's like, I don't know, you can't have it. Well, I want it. So I'm going to kill you. Do you know what I mean? And then those other tribes like, wait, that was our friend. We loved it. So now we're going to kill you.

You know what I mean? And it's just, you're just kind of seeing a thing that's been, you know, Shakespeare plays, you know, the great, great stories, all that stuff kind of deals with that cycle, you know. even though we see the differences between Barry and Gene and the terrible things that they did you get this little window into Gene's

weird anxiety and anger when he hears like someone called him a fuck fuck and that for whatever reason sets him off and then the great Ryaner goes to Mississippi line yeah then it's like this is a weird person like why did that set him off yeah that was just like a joke that was just like oh be funny if they like all these things were shit fuck

yeah the dumb fuck whatever but fuck fuck was the one that Made a mad. And that Fred Mellon, the character, knew exactly, you know, that was Rob Reiner, who said it. It's a pretty audition. Emily Heller had a great joke, which was, and I specifically asked for no feedback. We talked about, you know, casting real life people in previous episodes, but in this one, Joe Montania, the great Joe Montania shows up. When you're doing something like that, when you're bringing in the real world and a real, a real famous person, are you highly specific about how you're choosing? Are you like, we are right? Joe Montania and then checking to see if he can do it, if he gets it. How does something like that happen? Yeah, now, you know how you kind of cast a net first and you kind of say who would be down to do it and then you talk to a lot of people. And some people, you know, were really gracious, but kind of like,

I don't want to play myself, which I understood. And then, but on that list was Joe Montaena, which I was like, man, he'd be perfect. And then I had a really nice chat with him on the phone and kind of explained what the story was, and he's just such a lovely guy and was like, absolutely, man, yeah, sure. And he does do work with vets. Like, that's his challenge coin. He, he, that was all him. He brought that up. You know, he improvised that. Like, here's my challenge coin. And when he says, simplify, that's all joint. I had recently heard him on WTF, and he was talking about it. And I was like, oh, shit, this is, they really tapped, tapped into the true vein of Montania here. Yeah, no, yeah. That he, but that's,

the thing you kind of have it you talk to him and he says oh I do work with vets and I said oh well then you know let's say that on the show like you should say that to Cousineau um but my favorite line in that is I think Alecberg was had the joke in that which it was uh you didn't when they show him the article and Cusina says you didn't make this at Knott'sberry farm to fuck with me did you because we'll give the scripts out like you write it and you kind of go, hey, is anybody have any things in here and people put little things in the margin or, you know, and Alec, I remember had put that just kind of in the side and I laughed out loud. It was during the pandemic and I just started laughing so hard and I was like, yes, such a good line. My favorite line is suddenly Seymour in 1985 is the password, which is. Oh, yeah. What Hank tells Barry when he hands, or he tells Barry where the bomb is. Yeah.

which I guess is a little shot of horrors joke. It makes sense that Hank would be a little shot before his game. Yeah. No, that makes total sense that he likes a little shop of horrors for sure. There's a there's a quiet part, making the quiet part loud aspect of Barry having to carry a bomb around this episode and detonated because that's kind of like the theme of this whole show and this whole season.

Is there something like ticking waiting to go off? I thought the kind of cross-cutting between putting the bomb underneath the home. and then trying to speak to the customer service rep at detonate in the app crosscut with Fernando and Christobal having their encounter was like one of the best sequences in the show so far. Can you talk about that part? Yeah, some of that was in the reshoot because again, we wrote it where Christopher came home during the day for some reason and we shot it. And then so there was this whole scene during the day.

So then when you cut back at night, Cristobal's still there and they're still talking. and it just didn't feel right. And I said, shouldn't you come back home during the night? You know, so we went back and we shot that. And then the scene because the scene with, because the bomb was put under the house, but we didn't play up the sound of the bomb. Like once we were in editing,

and that is, when he picks up the bomb initially, it's a Korean voice, and that's Jason Kim, one of our writers who's really talented. And then when he hits the bomb against the underneath the house and the voice changes to Japanese, that's Hiro Murai, who directed Milana. That's hero was very nice to send me a voice memo.

I was like, he's saying, you've picked up the bomb in Japanese. And so we had that. So it was like, oh, it would be funny if the guys inside the house were hearing that, you know, and then just the scene between Fernando and Cristobal just again it wasn't really on point

it was sometimes you write stuff especially when you write stuff as a group and it becomes the scenes about like five different things and this happens to us all the time and then you get in the edit and you say this should be about one thing and then you realize like of those five things what it should be isn't any of those five things

it should be about, you know, I know about what's going on and you need to go fix this. And like, I mean, he's basically, you know, saying, you know, you, you know, I told, I told Michael Irby when he was doing that scene. I was like, as he's saying, like, you're not good at this, you know, you can't make the, you know, you're all about think pieces and all this. stuff and you know I think you have to take that that he's talking about you know your sexuality and you know what I mean like it's it's uh it has all these other implications to it and um Michael I just think both of them Miguel Fara and and and and and Michael is just holy shit Michael's so good I love it when he says, you'll have to kill me.

I just like, man, that just like, yeah, Michael Irby and that scene just really, really knocked out of the park. And then when I'm doing detonate, that is Allie Greer, our great editor is the voice of the woman, because she's a very sweet person from Minnesota.

Chillingly accurate representation of what it's like to be on one of those calls. Oh, God. Oh, geez. And she's like, well, it heard, like, it was like everything. It's always the nicest person in the world who usually can't help you, but in this case, she did help you. And you did, you did set the bottom off. But that was one that in the edit, we were messing around with a lot of like, when do you cut back out to Barry? When do you not? And we tried like, well, there must be seven versions of that scene where you're going back to Barry more or you don't go back to them at all.

There was an early version. We tried to cross cut between that and Sally's premiere. and it just was not working. And so that was like weirdly a very hard thing to get right. I'll have a lot of questions for you, I think, in the future about action filmmaking. But it feels like this season is a more of an action set piece series of events. And like there's a, there's a bomb explodes a house in this episode. I mean, this is no joke.

There's not a lot of the effects in that either. That's our special effects guys. Those are all practical effects. they have um that was one of the coolest things ever i mean i mean that's the way that explosion looks off on cameras the way it looked that's what it looked like on the day you know like there's pretty incredible the effects and that in that scene which is pretty pretty amazing but uh yeah and uh and and and uh darren ternan who who shot that episode just did a great job of of of lighting it and i like the way it's framed with

the house in the background and everything. It just gives it like this proximity that's really nice. I love the tenderness between Hank and Barry too when he brings Christobal back to the house. It's a great moment. A great moment for Anthony Kerrigan. Yeah. And also that Barry on some level knows he doesn't have that.

Like, oh, Barry kind of looks at that moment going like, oh, that's what love is. before he's about to get, you know, dumped. Yeah, I bring it up because that's where I wanted to go with this, which is just to talk about Sally and Sally's story in this episode. And, you know, I'm going to probably keep circling back to asking you if you've had moments like some of the ones that Sally has had and is having on the show right now because she attends the premiere of a show that she created. She's being interviewed on the red carpet.

There's photo ops. She learned shortly before going on stage that she's gotten a 98 on Rotten tomatoes, which if you've ever heard me on the rewatchables, you know, I say means nothing, but I think to some people means a great deal. Yeah, no, yeah, exactly. I mean, that's the kind of satire of it was that she gets a 98 and Rotten Tomatoes and it's like she makes an Oscar speech, you know? Like it's like she won an Oscar.

That got reshot. That was a big reshoot because, again, I take full responsibility for this. The initial, her initial speech, I wrote, was her going, I got an idea of rotten tomatoes. And Pam only got it 22% of rotten tomatoes. And fuck Pam. And it turned in. And Sarah Goldberg did it brilliantly.

It turned into like a Chris Rock stand-up special was her like pacing the stage and being like, this girl lives in bubble. Like, you know, and she's like going off. And everybody's like cheering and going crazy. And we just thought it was so funny. and then cut it together. And again, it just emotionally didn't work. And it was actually Amy Grav at HBO.

I go, I was talking to her, and we knew we were going to do these reshoots. And I said, you know, I just feel like the Sally speech in four doesn't work the way I thought it would. And she was like, yeah, you seems like you want to see her just do everything right.

You just want, like, she is talented. You just want to see it go well. And, and, and, and I said, yeah, no, I see what you're saying. It's like, make it clean. It's a side that we haven't seen from her all season, you know? And it's like, again, it's like, oh, this would be a funny joke. And I, not for the character, whatever, I, Bill, want to see Sarah do stand up like this. I think it would be funny.

And so it's like that's what's driving it as opposed to like, well, what's the character going through and what's the story need? And so we went back and reshot it and I felt terrible. I was like, Sarah, we rewrote your speech and you got to read your speech, you know, which she worked really hard on. And then she went back. And then because of that, we reshot all the stuff of, you know, the scene where she's working on her speech. and with Darcy, the whole like Thweetie, like that was in the original movie. And then

her getting in her car, you know what I mean? And saying, bye and shutting the door in Darcy's face. Like, like, it was one of those connecting pieces where you need to put the ticking clock of, there was no ticking clock

of Sally, Barry has to be at the premiere. She's leaving for the premiere, but the detonate thing won't work. So he's like in a suit, getting ready, but he's got to just get this one thing. done but then he has to hit these other two houses on the way home he's got to go by hank he's got to go by kusinao you know and um so yeah but when we redid it uh sarah goldberg she she was really funny and then i said hey what if you tried just in the middle of this having like a real quiet

personal moment and i didn't say what but i was just like you know just like the moment you would have alone, you know, in your room after you got the news about 90 on Rotten Tomatoes. And she went, got it and went out there and did that thing that you see. And we, I mean, we hold on it forever where she just starts going, huh, huh, like, just did this thing. And kind of had like a mental breakdown. Like whatever narratives going on in her head is so funny. And I was just crying, laughing at the at the monitors

but it was just like yeah she just did I just thought what she did that day was just magic I thought it was so funny it also it makes the I don't know if it's a payoff but it makes what happens to her next that much more powerful if you

yeah that was kind of 80 point yeah I was trying to like didn't know her to say that because you want to make sure you know people are surprised next week but yeah definitely that was one of the things.

So shortly thereafter, you know, Katie confronts her about the relationship that she's in. and, you know, Sally has this dawning moment, it seems like, based on that conversation. But what I wanted to ask you is, in your eyes, is this Sally being impressionable or has the veil been lifted for her about her relationship? The veil's been lifted by someone who actually does care about her. But no, Elsie Fisher, I got to give big credit to because she was the one that kind of, we talked it out and did it a couple ways. And we both kind of were, you know, I think as written, it was kind of, you know, not like angry, but like, look, you're with a bad guy.

And I don't like what he's doing to you. And, you know, it was kind of that attitude. And she said, you know, when I, I deliver things like this, I think I've had to say this to not this exact thing to friends, but when you have to tell someone you respect something hard that they might not

take well, I'm terrified. And I went, oh, that's good. Yeah. Yeah, do that. And that's the take that's in there. I thought that was so like, no, she's just incredibly, I just thought that was great. Like, that's

better than what was written. And so, yeah, it is her, it is her, you know, the veil's being lifted and she knows she's right. And that, you know, she says later, like, you know, that made me go back to a place. I don't want to go to again. And, and then, yeah, Barry gets dumped by her. And then his reaction is like, what? I was having a day. You know, like, that's what everyone says.

Like, well, he was just in a bad mood. he was just having a day, you know? It's like the way you can excuse those things. But again, I mean, we showed it to people and there was people who were like, yeah, he's having a day. Fuck that guy. And then there was people were like, well, I get fucking mad. People should have room to be getting mad.

Like, what the fuck? You know what I mean? And I'm like, that's the area you want to be in and not didactically saying, here's how we feel about this. It's kind of like, well, here's how the character feels about it. Here's how she's saying about it. and you can take with it what you want, you know? So that was interesting, like early kind of showing it to people,

like the different reactions you would get to that moment of, oh, yeah, fuck him, I'm so glad. And men and women saying, well, I mean, he got mad. I mean, I get, I don't know, I mean, you need room to be fucking angry, right? And it's like, well, what he did was pretty crazy. You know, and her past and everything. And I was like, I know, I know. So it's like a weird, it's like always surprises me, you know.

But that's kind of where you want to live, I think, when you're creating it. It's really good. And a vacuum would be an interesting conversation if we didn't know Barry had murdered dozens of people. Yeah, we didn't. Yeah, we know he's murdered a lot of people and we know her past. So to me, it's pretty cut and dry that she, and it shows growth on. her parts and that she's regressed and now she's back and I think it's pretty simple in that way but it was just these are the things that happen when you make these things that you don't expect

that conversation I was like well to me it's pretty cut and dry in the amount of people who were like so wait she gets she dumps him because he got mad at her and it's like well dude tv audiences are weird though you know there's the that reminds you a little of the Skyler White breaking bad thing where it was like why are people mad at Skyler White's character Well, people have it with Sally where people are mad at Sally. And I'm like, she's ambitious. Like, what's going on? Like, Barry kills people.

That's the thing we always say. I like the ending where we start aspect of this episode too with Annabeth Gish character and her son at the gun store. And, you know, it's this very intense moment. And we think that they're probably buying a gun together. But the reaction of the gun seller when he says, sweet. That guy is great. Yeah, that guy was great.

And yeah, he's just watched these people clearly saying they're going to go kill somebody. And he's like, oh, I got a commission. That's probably a good place for us to wrap this episode. Sweet. Thank you, Bill. Thank you. Please stay tuned. We'll be back next week with episode five.

Thanks to Bill Hater and thanks to our producer Bobby Wagner for his work on today's episode. If you dug this conversation, please join us next Sunday on the Prestige TV pod. Bill and I will be back to talk about episode five of Barry's third season. See you then. Thank you.