The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Barry’ Season 3, Episode 8 Recap With Bill Hader

Episode Date: June 13, 2022

Sean Fennessey is joined by creator and star Bill Hader to discuss the Season 3 finale of HBO’s ‘Barry.’ Sean and Bill discuss the notion of cliff-hanger endings, the honesty of going so dark in fiction, and the future of the show. Host: Sean Fennessey Guest: Bill Hader Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and final episode of the third season of Barry, and we're doing so with the star and co-creator of the show. Bill Hader, let's dive in. We're back. We're back with Bill Hader. We're talking about the season finale of season three of Barry. Bill, how are you feeling? Are you excited to talk about this?

Oh, yeah. This is an uplifting episode. Heartwarming. Yeah, awesome. Very heartwarming, very funny episode of television. You did warn us last week that this is. Yeah, I did tell you guys. Yeah.

You were right. I want to start with this. I've gotten the sense that you have become a little bit bored by the idea of conventional cliffhangers. Is that fair to say? I don't think about it too much, I think. Meaning, like, in what way? Like the Albert thing or season? I think just every episode, but more specifically how this season ended.

Yeah. I felt like, well, this could be the end of the show. you know, if you wanted it to be, you could say this story is over. I don't think it is. I mean, we can go through every character. Well, well, there's so much, in my mind, at least, like, unresolved. But, yeah, maybe. I don't know.

But, yeah, I don't, yeah, I don't, yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I thought of it that way. It's interesting. Yeah, no, I think probably because we're writing season four, yeah, I don't, I, I just look at the last episode of season three and go, oh, I see, that's now this and that's leading to that and that's leading to this. As a viewer, it did feel like you put, I don't want to say that any characters have like a emotional satisfaction or clarity necessarily, but there is like an escape or like a

kind of finality to a couple of circumstances. At least I felt that way while watching it. So I was trying to figure out like, you know, maybe you don't necessarily know that four is definitely going to happen when you're concluding three. And do you try to make sure that you're putting a bow on anything when you're telling the story? But it sounds like it was maybe the opposite. Yeah, no, because we're writing season, so we were writing season four during the pandemic and then went back into season three.

So this episode and episode last week, I was actually looking at my files were written in August of 2020. I wrote those in August 2020 and then would kind of give them to the writers for feedback. but we were writing season four and then kept going back to season three to change stuff and then so much stuff changed in season three that episode seven and eight

there was some tent pole moments left but a lot of it was just kind of thrown out and then I kind of went in and would talk to the writers basic things and go back and rewrite it and then show it to them, rewrite some more. But yeah, they were really surprised by some of the stuff in this episode. I remember.

But everyone felt it was right, you know. So this season, more than I think the first two, is very bleak. There are some very funny memorable moments, but it is, you know, not just intense, but I think there is a kind of real reckoning with life and death and how you've spent your time. and every character is really at this tough point at the end of the series. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, yeah, I mean, it's life.

Was what was going on at that time when you were writing in August 2020? Was that like informing, you think, where these characters ended up going? It could have been. It could have been. But I also feel like when you do a show about someone who murders somebody, if you don't go bleak, you're not being honest. And if you have a character like Sally, who's the victim of domestic violence and her dealing with her own inner violence. Like if you don't go bleak, then I don't, you know what I mean?

This is just where it's headed, you know? If you put, if you made this stuff with, with, you know, Noho Hank and Christobal funny, it doesn't work. to me it's like it has to be no whole you know the thing I said about this episode is kind of you know no whole Hank and and Sally

had to face their own inner violence and they perpetrate violence and but as a way of you know saving themselves or saving the person they love you know and also Sally's thing is so deep inherited from her past, that she's not just killing the guy, she's killing, you know, everything that's happened to her. You know, it's very much kind of, and so in a way, she

has that, but now she, like Hank, kind of have Barry's disease now, you know. It's like, what is that, how is that going to change them? And to me, the whole episode is kind of really signified in that close-up of Sarah Goldberg after she kills the guy. That to me is the, that's the image for the, the episode, but kind of like what everybody's going through, you know, and I don't know, I just can't really intellectualize it, but it just is a feeling that when we shot that close up for her, I found it really kind of just transcendent and I just was like

yeah that that's it you know and I was hoping you could talk about that whole bit like that whole series of encounters where you know your character discovers her in his apartment and then the biker gang member breaks in I mean

yeah like that where did the idea for all of that come from and what was it like to shoot such a I mean the show is very violent often but this was a different level of physical violence. Yeah. Well, you didn't want it to be,

like, it couldn't be exciting like episode six. It couldn't be, you know, it has to be real. Lack of music, you know, and shoot it in a very simple way.

But, and try to shoot it honest, you know, that was the thing is you didn't want to make it. I think some people read it and they could see it as like a, um, with her with sally and hank is kind of like their uh you know someone said their rambo moments and it's

like no no it's it's like um it's trauma you're watching trauma you're not watching you know something badass you know it's trauma and the same with barry at the at the tree with Albert, that's two people with trauma, you know, the garage with, you know, Jim Moss and Kusno, it's all trauma. And yeah, maybe that is like the way the world's happening and like, look, it's still, I mean, you're recording this. There's like a new mass shooting every day. I mean, it's a thing that you don't want to be really didactic and clearly have some sort of an agenda. You just are trying to write a thing and go,

well, this is, I'm just trying to portray this as honest and truthful as possible, you know, and have fun. You know, you have these other things like the, you know, motorcycle chase and, and you have funny moments and things like that.

But it felt like the show wanted to end on this kind of a note, you know and so um that scene was sally and the guy in the the the irony is it's anthony malinari who is one of the nicest human beings on the planet and and way down on our stunt coordinator i kind of told him what i wanted and then he choreographed it with them and they were just fantastic together so the real irony like all these is when you shoot a scene like that it's very weirdly kind of laid back and everybody's making jokes and going like, oh, that looks right. Yeah, let's try that. You know, and, and, um, but then when it's ready to go, uh, he, he and, and Sarah especially were just incredibly focused and, and, uh, and understood it.

There wasn't a lot of direction. I think the only direction I gave to Anthony was when he was choking her. I was like, hey, you're choking her, and this is, it's a bygone conclusion that you're going to kill her. So when you're choking her, try to be thinking, okay, well, I got to kill her now. What do I do with him? This is nothing to you. You know, you've done this before, you know? And it's the kind of lack of empathy, lack of respect for life that you wanted to kind of show, you know? And so, Yeah, we just took it, you know, shot for shot. I have photo boarded the whole thing because we had to move kind of fast.

And then in the writing stage, I had this idea of a phone, of a booth, a vocal booth, and the door closing and the sound cutting out. Again, I can't intellectualize it, but it's just it gives you a feeling that is, I watched that and I go, oh, we've lost her. Or something's now escaped from, from Saturday. She's never going to be the same after this. It's not a heroic moment, but we hopefully understand why it happens, you know?

And so, and it's a thing, a cycle that has, have been happening since the beginning of time, and it's possibly always going to happen. So it's a thing that clearly on someone, level is a thing I'm fascinated by and incredibly sad about, you know. So I don't know. Yeah, I just felt that moment with her was really important. And then when you get to that close up of her, which actually was an added shot, we shot

it and she that's her first take and I just said just just answered you know just just getting a place you know she just got in a place and I'm just improvising like look I think the line I did this was scripted everything after that like I'm

going to leave like you got to go you know say Barry did this say it you know repeating it and stuff we just kind that is all just kind of improvised and so we shot that and it was really great and Carl Hurst here DP said oh hey there was like a flare on the lens like there was a there's a buzz on the lens with focus

I think we got to go again like oh sarah we got to go again she was like what and then and then we did it two more times and it just she was like this isn't the same I was just like I really was there man and then I went over to the monitor and watched it and I was like where's the buzz in the lens and Carl was like right there and it was like I don't see anything You know, it was just like, oh my God, you know. So, and then, you know, where the knife stuck into the guy, everybody thought that was really funny when he came in with the knife and everybody was like, oh, my God, you know, and all that. And it was weirdly, yeah, because it was a dark scene. I think people try to keep it light while you're shooting it.

One thing I noticed during that scene is something that I feel like you've done a few times this season is you made me feel. like the character was going to die. The same way when Fuchs got shot, when Jean was being chased by Barry, you know, even a couple of Barry's encounters, I'm like, are one of these characters going

to die? And even though the show has been about murder in the past, I never felt like mortality was necessarily so on the surface. Yeah, I mean, it's a kind of, again, it's a show about a murderer, so it's like, it kind of lends itself. It kind of lends itself to that. It's not a conscious thing that you, you know, like that

beginning, when, when Fuchs gets shot, it's like, we're writing that. I remember writing that with Duffy Boudreau, and it's like, okay, he's giving the information what would happen. I'm or Duffy said, they'd probably shoot him. You know what I mean? They don't want him around, you know? And, and so once you've established that someone is a certain way, if that guy is going to walk into a room with, with Barry and Sally, he's going to kill both of them. So it's just like a far, It's a far-going conclusion, you know. And the kind of the idea between those two people of like all the vengeance army, how different they all are, it was important to me to show that here's all these people,

but there are just psychos out there. And so you also have to have just a straight-up psycho who does not give a shit. And we don't know where it comes from. We just, they're evil, you know. And in my opinion, that person needs to be gone, you know, and Sally does it, but kind of like destroys their own humanity in doing it, you know. And so that that was what was important. That's such a fascinating contrast to the encounter between Albert and Barry, where, you know,

Albert literally says to him, you know, I know evil and you're not evil, but this has to stop. Yeah. he doesn't know him, but yeah, or does he? Yeah, I mean, it's this idea of Barry finally gets forgiveness. That was what that scene was. It was like, this is what he's wanted all season, and he finally gets it. And he goes into this, that was a weird thing that happened, because initially that scene was like a dialogue scene.

And it was kind of like the scene at the tree at the end of episode one with Barry and Cousineau. And it was very much dialogue scene. And then the more we had Barry talking, it became very melodramatic, very on the nose, kind of, you know. But the idea was that consciously, you know, this whole thing started with Albert. He was defending Albert in war and he killed a guy. And now Barry on some level knows it's going to end with this guy, you know. and kind of purposely had Barry in the same position

that the guy that he killed in season two, the innocent Afghani guy that he killed, it's the same kind of thing. And then a thing happened when we were shooting it was that when he pulled a gun on me, I just started screaming like that. And Duffy Boudreau came over after that take and went, oh, that's really cool.

It's like he's a child. he's a scared little boy and I was like yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah you know but again it's just very intuitive so he went that's I think that's cool man and then Gavin Kleintock the first AD was like dude I dug that scream I'm not I don't think I wasn't expecting that you know I think everybody's expecting you to like figure out how's he going to get out of this and everything and instead you see that no he's not Jason born or you know some mass mastermind. He's a scared child. He's, he's, you know, he's, he's, you know, he's trying to figure himself out and doing it. He's gotten, and then he gets the forgiveness, and it's kind of the

worst thing that could have happened to him. You know what I mean? It's, it's, it's someone trying to give him back his humanity and say, like, I have a daughter, and if I didn't, if it wasn't for you, this, my daughter wouldn't be alive. So it's the same weird, cycle of things that have been happening through history. You know what I mean? Whereas like you killed this. You know, you avenged me and you did this thing.

But then if you hadn't done that, this never, you know what I mean? And, um, but I don't know. I'll say it, it felt like an echo too of the conversation with Ryan's father

from the previous episode too, the idea of like the parent and seeing the world through the eyes of the child that you have and every decision you make reflecting on that. Yeah, of if you hadn't saved my life, my kid, I wouldn't have this kid that's like the greatest thing that's ever happened to me. And so, you know, whoever can do that can't be an evil person.

And so Barry's given back his humanity, and then I find it funny. I don't think it's funny, I don't think it's really funny that in the next scene, he immediately goes to kill Jim Lahn. But that's the same thing. You've just been given this amazing thing and like, you know, Fuchs, you know, seeing the thing in episode six of the, you know, the article and taking off from the guy's truck and, you know,

Sally's seeing Natalie like doing her, running her writer's room. You get incensed. And you make really, you make the same dumb, terrible mistake over and over. I wanted to ask you about that. Because, you know, the reason he goes to kill Jim is because Jim calls him, right? You know what I mean, if Jim doesn't call him and if Gene doesn't set him up?

What happens to Barry? I was thinking about this because I think of this idea that the past haunts you as a big part of the season. But could he have put his life together if that didn't happen? Well, he would have gone to Sally's apartment and she wouldn't have been there. So he probably would have gone looking for her and felt, you know, sad. and, you know, he would have figured out on some level. You know, these two people he cares most about it in the world is Kusno and Sally. And he really thinks they both love him so much.

And at the end of this episode, they both fucking bail on him because they don't love him because he's a monster. But he doesn't see that. You know, in his mind, they're both coming to him for help. Sally's saying, hey, we got to take care of Natalie. And he's going, no, no, you don't want it like, ah, God, you know, we have this bond, you know. And Kusno is, you know, he calls Kusno and he's like,

Barry, I'm going to do something really stupid. And it's like, oh, God, I'm, you know, and Barry's mind, he's that friend, you know. But with Kusno is a little different because he's so angry with him that Kusno has a gun and he's going to be this tough guy, it's like he's so angry because, you know, he's just been giving his humanity back and he's just learned this big lesson and now it's his time to impart it on Kusano. And then Kusno says, Jim knows you kill Janus.

And so now it's self-preservation. Now it's like, Barry, at the end of the day, he only fucking cares about himself. You know, because if he didn't fucking care about that, he'd be like, who cares? Let's get out of here. know, if they arrest me, I'll figure it out or whatever. But it's like, well, I can't have that. So I got to go kill him, you know. And so again, it's, it's, if he had just gotten in his car and just driven out of Los Angeles, who knows what would have happened.

Well, you said something so interesting, which is you just described him as a monster, Barry, character that you play that you created that, you know, is, is the focus of a lot of your creative energies. and I definitely didn't think this at the beginning of the series, but it's becoming more and more apparent that it's not even that Barry is an anti-hero in the Tony Soprano mold. You know, like, he's not somebody we necessarily root for. There kind of is no show without him, but I can't really think of another TV show.

There are some films, obviously. We've talked about some of those films in the past, the taxi drivers of the world, but there are very few TV series that are built around a character, but you'd be like, this guy probably should just be killed. Like, he's really hurting a lot of people here and is not redeemable. And I don't know if you guys talk about that in the room or if you've given that any thought to like who this person has become. Sometimes the writers will say that, but we always are just going, well, that's him.

Again, it's just being honest. You just don't want to like, likeability and all that stuff. What's honest? Likeability. Yeah, we can't think about that. murderer. So I've never have liked him. But the whole

point to me as an actor, but also as a writer, was kind of going, well, where's the humanity in this guy? And where can you find, you know, like an actor? Where's the way into it that's interesting and different, you know? And I think

so much of it is if you could make some of his feelings relatable and going, like, well, he is just, you know, that guy that you went to high school with that you would see him someplace and go, fuck, what is his name? I do, I know you, you know? And it's like, hey, man, it's like, hey, how are you? You know, and it's, you have that conversation the whole time. You're going, what is his name? You know, it's that guy, you know. But also he might kill you. Yeah, then you find out. Those are the.

the guys that you find out have, you know, bodies buried places, you know, and this is the one thing he's good at is, is killing people, you know, and he doesn't want it to be that way. And it felt like this season it was for us to say, yes. And it's about consequences for that. You know, you didn't want to do a thing that was just kind of fun and, you know, I'll say this, the very beginning of this, the very beginning of season, I think I've said a couple of times. First day we wrote on the board, Cousinot knows, you know, Sally gets her own show, very, you know, forgiveness, no Hank and Chris Ball are a couple. And then the last thing was Gene catches very, very, the last thing. Barry's caught and Gene, you book in the season with Gene finding out and Barry thrown in the trunk of a car and you leave it.

The initial end of that script, you're with Barry the whole time, so he gets caught and then it was, you're with him as the cops are bringing him outside and they're roughing them up a bit and there's already like, you know, people, you know, looking and him getting in, you're like, oh my god you know um and then we look we were looking at that house jim moss's house and i saw that giant window and i went oh this is actually way more interesting you make it about victims

and you know these people affected by violence um that oh that could be interesting if it's him and kusno out there and then they leave and then you you have jim and we're inside the house and you're sitting there watching him and there's a picture of jane and there's a picture of jane and it's like, yeah, you caught the bad guy. Yeah, you know, we avenged it. But he's still got to go inside that house. And he's going to be alone in that house. So does that matter?

You know, it was this feeling I had of, well, the person I have the most kind of I'm feeling for right now is Jim Moss. So it was, again, it's this instinctive thing. Your mind just starts to do. go to like what Robert Wisdom's doing really interested in that and so it's like what if we end it

with this image of him just alone and he's got to go inside the house you know and yeah and you get the I got the sense that he could have been standing outside by himself for hours that could have been a time lapse situation doesn't want to go back

inside that house and it's empty and it's empty because of Barry you know it's just again it's like a feeling I've had other friends. I've like some friends say, I feel like the show is basically, you know, very much about kind of like

what we've been living through for the past couple of years. And, you know, I'm sure that all ends up in there, but it's not like on a conscious level or anything. But I'm sure it's hard for that, not to all show up in there. I have another friend who knows me really well from S&L days and he was watching the show.

And he goes, I feel like you're trying to make the whole world feel as anxious as you feel. And I go, you know, and I was like, oh, maybe, maybe my brain just immediately goes to like, you know what would be awful right now is if the Taylor guy showed up and knocked Barry out, and now it's Sally and just that guy, you know, and now it's like, or what would be terrible as if no, Hank was tied up and a panther went loose on the other side and started eating his friends. And when we watched it, I showed it to the writers.

And when the last episode, Nikki Hirshhorn used to be my assistant, and she's a writer on the show, had a panic attack. And then Emma Barry, who I love, is great. It ended. And there was a long pause and no one said anything after the last episode. And then she turned around and looked at me and Duffy and went, what the fuck is wrong with you? Well, I mean, there's a reason that I asked you

about when this was written specifically because it does, well, I want to talk about the NoHo Hang thing, but before that, I mean, the season itself does feel like how I think a lot of people felt myself included, which was like a real desperation and aloneness, I think, is a lot of what 2020, 2021 was like. It really buries crazy isolation from humanity is this core theme of the whole series. but this season in particular, or it's like,

this guy has no human connections left. And he can't even see that because he's diluted himself. Yeah. And so I'm not surprised that your friends are picking up on some from recent times. But you should talk about the No-Hank sequence

because we barely even mentioned him last time we talked. And he's taken a little bit of a backseat the last couple of episodes. And this felt like your horror movie a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So maybe you can talk about constructing this really terrifying scene.

Yeah, so I think in the outline it was just Noel Hanks in Bolivia and he's captured. And I think it was, he gets out of it somehow and saves Christobal. And I can't remember what we had talked about. But I do know Liz Saurinoff while go in order. So I was like, okay, we talked about him being chained up in a room. and hearing the guys next door getting attacked, but we didn't know how.

And then this idea of a panther came to me, kind of like they talked about a panther earlier in the show. And it's kind of, again, and my head was kind of this place of like, no-ho, Hank has to kind of face vengeance, face violence in a way, the most core thing of it. But you don't see it, you know, But the big part about me is I never want to see the thing.

It's all about what you're hearing and what's happening in his head. And so it makes it more of this kind of ethereal thing that then he has to actually, like, destroy. You know? And it's the first time he's killed any thing on the show, you know. And so having... So the way that's a set made by Eric Schoonover, and what we had was we just had the other actors out. the other side of the wall talking.

And then we hired these two great actors, and I was like, I'm so sorry, you're not going to be on camera. One of them had a chain, and I held the other end of the chain and would run over, and we recorded it wild, meaning it was just sound. There was no camera recording of them screaming, and then you do different levels of the screaming. And then it was just kind of tracking.

it with the camera. So Anthony Kerrigan did such an amazing job in the scene because he is reacting to nothing. He is he is just, it's me walking him through it. It's me going, okay, they come in and now they're being attacked. They're being attacked, you know, and he is just, that's what he's reacting to. And then it coming through the walls. So we had one wall that you, that dust would knock out of, we had to take that wall out. We had to take that wall out. you put in a second wall and that wall you could hit the back of it. We had guys behind there with hammers hitting the back of it so the wall would start falling apart. Then you take that wall out and you put a third wall in

and that one is all squibbed up. And so then he when he shoots the wall, that is a composite shot. Anthony is not in that shot. We let off all the squibs, then put Anthony in, pretend to shoot, and then we just laid them together. I thought I came out, right?

And that was for his safety. And then Laura Hill added that panther, which I thought looked cool and the light coming in. And then we added the blood slowly seeping in through the bottom, which I really liked. So, yeah, that was a tough scene because so much of it is in sound and what you're not seeing. So when we shot it, it was,

there was a lot of meetings about walls and a lot of meetings of what are we seen what do we not seen i got asked maybe a hundred times at what point do we see the panther and i'm like never and then they i show up and they're they're like okay here's a guy with the with a fake panther and i'm like we're never going to see it just no one believe me on it i understand because they're go, oh, directors say that. And then on the day, they go, oh, we should see the Panthers. So they, you know, production doesn't want to be caught with their pants down. So it turned into, do you want to shoot a Panther? Just, no, I don't want to see it. I don't want to. I just, we're just going to hear it, you know. But this poor guy shut up with a fake Panther. And I was just looking at him. Like, man, buddy, I'm so sorry. I mean, I hope you're getting paid, but like, we're never going to use you. You know. And then my favorite moment of that is I love. of the closer shot of Anthony when he's pulling on the handcuffs. And we're going close and you see the wall falling apart behind him. I just thought that looked great.

And then, so he gets out. And then I thought, what would be interesting if he came out and you realize you're in a mansion. And you see the light going off and what's happening and there's a mystery. and then when you look down the hallway, you see someone dancing and you don't know what it is. And this, oh, the idea of Christobal having this weird like conversion therapy came from Liz Sarnoff. She was like, I think she should be given conversion therapy.

Initially she was going to be administering drugs. And then I thought, oh, she should be electrocating him because that's just so much more vicious. And then that shot moving down the hallway, that's one of my favorite shots of the season. I love that shot behind NoHo and you see the guy in the distance. Shadowy figure. A shadowy figure doing to. I really love that shot.

If you're a fan of documentary now, we shot drones in the very same house. So it was very weird coming back to that under different circumstances. From that season one of documentary now, there's an episode where we make fun of, vice called drones. Yeah. You worked on that as well. So when we got there, we were like, I've been here before. It was like, and the owner of the house.

Was that also about a cartel? That was about a cartel. Yeah. It's just one. Yeah. And I, we. So you have your cartel location now. Our cartel location.

So if you watch drones, you'll see it's the same house. And then, yeah, you know, the scene with Critsia, who plays Christobal's wife and Michael Irby and that wonderful actor who plays a stripper was very sweet and very, uh, you know, patient. And he was really funny. I like when he starts playing the piano. He's really weird. Um, um, but, you know, she, you know, I, you know, I said to her, you know, this can't be played like evil. It's, it's, it's like, you love him and this is your way of fixing him. You think this is going to fix him. and you're hurt. And, yeah, it was just a very bizarre scene,

but I, the emotions were all right of it. And I really like the moment when Hank shoots her and she goes out of frame and then, and then he takes her place, you know, in frame. That was very important. And then they hug and then Hank gets that look on his eyes that, you know, I just don't think he's going to be the, the same. And, you know, I, you know, that was the thing, Anthony Carrigan and I talked about. I go, you know, we could try different looks here. And, and he, you know, I go, yeah, I think just after what you just been through, I don't think you got him back, but at what cost, you know, and it's the same as Sally, you know. And so, yeah, that was the, that was the way we did it.

So you're working on four right now. Yeah. Does the reception of a season influence you at all, matter to you at all when you're working on an active season? It can if I really engage with what people are saying, you know. I try not to look at it too much. Because then, you know, you get like, you know, after season two, everybody was like, oh, so you're bringing back that karate girl, right?

there's no way she's not, you know what I mean? And it was like, how would she come back? But it's kind of nice to be kind of insulated from some of that stuff because it doesn't really, it's very, you know, it can be very nice and or frustrating when it's bad, you know. But I think I learned that at S&L is like, you know, SNL used to go to the after parties and look on our phones at what they say. and you would just get, you know, just eviscerated or, you know, you lived and died by every comment.

And, I mean, some of this was before Twitter. I mean, this was back when we were going to like IMDB boards and the stuff, you know, and like, so I remember when Twitter happened, it was like, oh, oh, this is like really terrible. It's like all comments. But so, yeah, I think, you know, you kind of try to back. balance it a bit. Sometimes people will send me things that are really nice, you know. But, and then the writers will love it when someone hates it and go, oh my God, I guess what someone's so said and they think it's really funny. I don't know. I just can't. I just,

I just have to focus on where the show is because for all I know, season four will be very, like, it's a totally different feel, you know, than this season, you know? But again, it's just trying go to that you're creating something like this you just want to be instinctual with it and kind of go well this is where it feels right to me and where the character should be going but i feel like you're very human and practical about these things and so if a jerk like me is like hey man this was bleak like is that you know does that find its way seeping in do you find yourself like reacting against it or wanting to lean even deeper into it i think that's a bleak or different I don't know.

I mean, it is bleak, I guess, but I also just find it just, you know, I go, yeah, go watch the news. It's like not. That's true. That's fair. No, it's nowhere near as bleak as the news, you know. That is very true. I think by the standards of your prestige television show, you know, there's not, you're not giving us a lot to. And frankly, I'm relieved by it and I like it, as you know, but I just think it's interesting that you're like, fuck it.

we're making this real. Yeah, you got to be honest, man. You just got to go with what feels like the honest thing. And it just goes to that place, you know. And if it's like where it's headed. And you talk to the actors about it. It's not just me sitting there going, fucking everybody, this is where we're going.

I remember Sarah Goldberg and I had a talk about, you know, do you think? Because there was some people in the writers and I'm saying, should she hit the guy with a bat? Should she stab him and run off? You know, should she call the cops? Should she do this? and I talked to Sarah about it and she was like, there's no way I'm not beating that guy with a baseball club.

It was like just everything I've been through, everything I've been through my life. There's no way that's not happening. You know? It was like, that's kind of why I feel too. I just wanted to see if we're on the same page here. You know what I mean? Or like with Anthony, like, are you comfortable, you know,

and him going, yeah, yeah. And, and, you know, Anthony's big thing was in reading it, it was like this isn't like an action movie. Is it? this isn't like supposed to be like everyone's cheering or something and I no no this is it's all just it's trauma yeah so you've directed the last couple episodes and it's been reported that you're directing every episode of the next season which is something that uh you know it's really a big task um is that your favorite thing to

do on the show at this point yeah yeah i think it is i mean I mean, I love acting, but I really do love directing. I love the problem solving of it. And we have a pretty good team right now, you know, and, you know, we're able to get a lot done because so much of my directing is prep, you know, I'm, I don't really on the spot come up with stuff. It's all very, I mean, I've gotten a little bit better with it this season, you know, where it is a little bit more confident and comfortable going,

I don't really know how we're going to cover Ben Yays by Mitch. Let's see how it goes. You know, when you get in there and you go, it's two shots. You know, but other moments, you know, the garage scene with Kusno and Jim Moss, that was something where it was like, I think that was written that way. It was all going to be this two

shot that then pushes into a close-up and then both their faces just in frame and I thought they were really good in that scene. And, you know, it's rough. It's a tough thing to watch. But that, you know, all that is like thought out ahead of time. This has been a season of, I don't know, Dreyer-esque close-ups, you know, the super intense right on the face.

Is that, where did that come from? I don't know. I wish I, I don't know. Again, you just get there and it just, it's the feeling. You just, I wish I, I mean, it's all in there. I've seen all those movies. It's all in there. But it's not like, oh, let's do.

There's like little moments where you'll say, oh, remember the shot from Cold War. So let's do that in the scene, you know, like you'll have moments like that. But again, you just kind of like think of the scene and think of the intensity you want and just think of. Again, it's, you know, it's the emotion that the characters are going through. Let me try to get that. What, um, what, what's, do you know, the arc of Barry's story at this point? Because when we first started talking in the first episode,

I think you didn't know anything about what you wanted to do with season three before you guys got the room together. Is that right? Yeah. It was basically the same for season four. It's like we just sat down and went, all right, so he's arrested.

What do we do? Do you know how many seasons you want to do? Not yet. No, we're still messing with that. We're still trying to figure that out. But, you know, right, I can only think of it, like I said, I think before it's like scene by scene. It's just, like this one scene at a time.

And you kind of see like where it kind of goes, you know. But every time we've had a scene, you know, the first season we had, everybody went, this should just be the only season of the show. Like, that was great. Don't do any more. And we did the second season and it was like, it had a big cliffhanger. And still people were like, you know what? You don't need to do it anymore.

you know so I feel like that's kind of what we always hear is yeah don't do anymore that's how I open this conversation I was like this could have been the end if you wanted it to be yeah that's so funny you say that uh I guess it could have been but I think it would have been I would have been bummed if that was the end because I just feel like there's too many other questions you know what did okay last question for you before we wrap this thing up um would you learn about yourself making season three um I learned that now that I'm in my 40s, I gain weight really fast. Me too.

Wow. I put on weight incredibly fast now. That's so real, dude. It blows. I can't even, they have these like fig Newton bars. And I would have one every day after lunch. And then suddenly I'm watching Daly's in the weekend. And it's like, whoa, whoa, dude.

holy shit you know it just it's happening so fast um so that blows i can't eat the way i want to anymore uh if i don't meditate and and that's the other thing it's like i'm exercising it's not like i'm not exercising it's just that thing of like no man it's like 70% of it is what you eat is true um so So, you know, meditating helps me get through this stuff. I need that. I need the exercise. And to try to be, I think what I learned about myself is any time I get really stressed out and go into massive doubt, it's like your problem solving abilities and your creative energy just gets turned off like a faucet.

Anytime you get stressed and doubt. So it's not taking on the stress of everybody else. That's what I learned this season, that everyone else will go, I just, I don't know, you know, or seeing this episode, there was, you know, there were people initially that were like, this is rough. Like, dude, this is really rough. Like, there's no comedy in it at all or whatever. And can we try to find a place, you know, for something?

And it just was like, no, it just doesn't feel right, you know. but if you take on all that other anxiety, it can be crippling. It can really, it's the same thing about getting too into reading about the show or what people are saying or things like that is that it can warp your perception of it because you're the only one that you and your team,

I should say, are the only ones that understand it. You've got to lead those people. So it's like you have to kind of see a thing beyond where the other people are looking, you know, and going like, I know we're all concerned about the fire right here, but I know on the other side of this fire, it's fine. So let's just keep walking this way, you know, and having that confidence. And I feel like a couple of times this season, I didn't have that confidence and really leaned on other people and was kind of like,

I don't know what's going on. I don't know. When we had to do the reshoot, I was like, oh my God, I fucked it up and you know. And so yeah, you need to in the space all I just try to be as calm as possible. You know, and it's hard though, man. And let the story and the people lead it. Let the characters have to lead it.

It's like that that's what has to happen. I think some of the feedback I've gotten on these conversations we've been having is that people really appreciate how open and transparent you are about things like reshoots and about not knowing the answer and about getting confused and needing to rebuild something or reimagine it. So I just want to say

thank you for doing that. You were right in season four and it happened yesterday where it's like we got it and then Alyssa Donovan who's my assistant read it and she just pulled one thread and the whole thing is and we're all going

no! And so 8 o'clock this morning. I'm back there going like, oh my God, okay, what if? You know, and you can't, you've got to acknowledge, like, this sucks, but at the same time, you've got to keep moving forward, you know. The saga continues. Bill, thank you so much for everything this season.

I really appreciate them, man. I'm hoping, yeah, let's do this again next season. Let's do it again next season. I'll see you then. See you, bud. Thank you so much to Bill Hader, not just for today, but for participating in this project on this feed. It's been absolutely delightful.

I really appreciate it. I also really appreciate the work of our producer, Bobby Wagner, for all of his work on this episode and this whole series on Barry. Thanks for listening to the Prestige TV podcast. Stay tuned. We're covering all kinds of shows across this feed, so I hope you're listening.