The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Barry’ Season 4, Episode 5 Recap With Bill Hader

Episode Date: May 8, 2023

Sean Fennessey is joined by ‘Barry’ cocreator-director-star Bill Hader to break down the fifth episode of the season and why he felt like it was time to take a big swing in the narrative structure of the show. Host: Sean Fennessey Guest: Bill Hader Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You may find this hard to believe, but 60 songs that explain the 90s. America's favorite poorly named music podcast is back with 30 more songs and 120 songs total. I'm your host, Rob Harvilla, here to bring you more trude musical analysis, poignant nostalgic reveries, crude personal anecdotes, and rad special guests, all with even less restraint than usual. Join us once more on 60 Saws That Explain the 90s, starting Wednesday, May 17th, on spot. I'm Sean Fennessey and this is the Prestige TV podcast. A quick programming note before we begin.

This episode was recorded before the writer's strike began on Tuesday. In the coming weeks, we're going to press pause on our discussions on this season of Barry with Bill Hader, who is standing in solidarity with the writers. Bill will return to discuss the remaining episodes when the strike is over. Okay, let's get into our chat. Today we're talking about the fifth episode of the fourth and final season of HBO's Barry. We're doing so with the star and co-creator of the show Bill Hater. Hi, Bill. Hi.

This episode is called Tricky Legacies. It is written by you. It is directed by you. And it is the most unusual episode in show history. We have vaulted eight years into the future. And this episode felt like a fascinating swing and a big risk. And I want to start with, why eight years? Why did we go to that period of time?

Well, I want to Barry and Sally to have a kid. So it kind of just came down to that. I think I mentioned this last week, but in season one, Barry had this daydream about having a kid. And I always wanted that to be, you know, him getting that dream. You know, I think the whole idea of going into the future was pretty early on in the writing process of season four. And it was this thing of what if everybody got what they wanted, all the characters. and you'll see the other characters more next week, but initially episode five was going to be kind of catching up with everybody.

And we had written that version and just something about it seemed to kind of hit the ground running in a way that was, I don't know, just not that interesting to me. And I remember talking Amy Gravitt about it. And we both were going, oh, well, maybe it be nice to kind of settle into something. So we and the audience kind of get an idea of what the characters have been going through. And then I remember I went on a walk with Duffy Boudreau and just started talking about what

Sally and Barry's life would have been like for the last eight years. And then thought, oh, yeah, it could be this. this episode. And I said, what did we just did a whole episode? It was basically just them. And we just slowed everything down for an episode and got a sense of where they're at. And then I ran home and wrote it. I actually wrote this episode pretty quickly. It was kind of like just in one or two sittings. It kind of came pretty fast. One thing I was curious about is all the way up until the moment when Gene shows up in the episode. There is this incredible sense of disorientation, in part because of some of the choices

that you've made in the series to this point, where just like at the end of episode four, I found myself asking myself, like, is this really happening? Like, is this a reality? And I know that, you know, even in doing press and chatting with me at the end of episode four, you said, we are doing a time jump. This isn't a fantasy. We are very direct about that. But were you trying to, like,

confuse us, but like disorient us or keep us on the back foot somehow the way you kind of shot and, and wrote this episode? No, I just, no, I mean, that wasn't part of it. It was just kind of, you know, we had these other ideas of how to show that you, you've moved ahead and all this. At one point, after in episode four, after Barry says, you know, Sally says, let's go. When he goes, really, that we would cut to black and you, and you would hear this weird kind of cacophonous sound scape of just different sounds from the earth, kind of just building to this thing. And then it would cut to these two boys fighting.

And it all just felt like a lot of nothing. And I just said, yeah, just cut to it. You know, we got to black and then you're there. And now it's, it's been eight years, you know. And if people, you know, because it was interesting, because it was a fork came out. And, you know, it's, I know. I never read stuff. I'm always a hear about it secondhand.

And friends texting like, yeah, the internet's really confused by the ending of episode more. I was like, well, hopefully they'll stick with it, you know? But that's all you can really do. But yeah, I mean, I just, to me, it was just more of, you know, we do episodes like this where it's like, you know, Ronnie Lilly or the motorcycle chase and it's usually action-oriented. And it was like, what if we did one that everything just is quiet? Because that's kind of where their lives have been.

It's these kind of weird mundane things where they're playing parts, which is what I've mentioned. They're still acting. Sally especially, you know, she's putting it on a wig. She's putting the makeup on much like an actress and she's going to work and playing. And she's doing this kind of corny accent. and the whole thing. And I also like that the kid,

they're bad at it. The kid knows something's wrong. The kid is up. Does your mom wear hair on top of a regular hair? You know, it's like the kid knows. They're not very good at it. So to me, I find the episode incredibly funny. I laugh a lot during this episode.

Every time we would, you know, watch cuts of it or screen it, I would be laughing a lot. Duffy Boudreau and I especially find this episode very funny. Do you, are you saying that you did not purposefully

implant this impending sense of doom in the episode though? Because it does feel like it is, as a viewer, I was constantly asking myself like, okay, where is this leading to? Because there was a sense of propulsion through the first four episodes in the story. Yeah. And this is a much more

patient kind of character study, right? But there is something looming over it that is like, what is, what is this? What is going to happen here? Yeah, I mean, I think so. I mean, yeah, I mean, to me it was just about seeing where just being in their lives and the ending happens like with Kusinau, finding out that Kusinau, and that kind of brings them back into. So to me, it was about what is the moment where they're,

there now. We see them when she says, let's go. And he goes, really, that's them saying goodbye to L.A. and that life. And so I wanted an episode that took you right up to the moment where they're brought, pulled back into that life. And it just was a full episode where you were able to just see where they're at. Yeah, that was just kind of a character study, you know. And I find like what's happening with Sally and Barry in this episode really interesting, you know, especially Sally's, you know, those scenes with Spencer, the guy Beville, this guy trying to be a badass and all that. You know, I really enjoyed all that, you know, that scene. And, you know, that scene with them in the bathroom is, I love that scene. I think they're just terrific in it. And, you know, in

writing it initially I was writing that where she was going they were going to have sex in the bathroom and so I get to that scene and you're writing it and you're about to have sex in the bathroom and then you're going like well wait what's how he do this? And then it's one of those great moments that happens sometimes when you're writing where the character just goes no you know and then before you know it they're she's choking him you know, and it's a, and I remember, you know, sending it to the writers and, you know, and Emma Barry and Liz Sarnoff and Duffy going like, oh, wow. Yeah, that's, that's really interesting, you know. So I wanted to ask you about that. Obviously, like I feel like Sally and Barry have two very different experiences in this new life that they've built for themselves.

Yeah. For Sally, you know, she's been traumatized by this abuse that she's, she suffered when she was younger. And then she's also been kind of retramatized by the entire experience with Barry. And so now she's a person who's hiding and performing every day and wants to kind of be recognized

and prefer performance, wants to be desired, I guess. But like, what is that choking? Is that, what is that a manifestation of? Like, when you wrote that, what were you thinking that that that says about her at that time? Yeah, that, that, that she's not, she's not going to go,

she's not going to acquiesce to any. of this, you know, that the men in her life are, especially a guy like this, to me, what I told Sarah was when she's talking to him and he says, you know, he's like, how do you think it made him feel, you know, where he's talking to her. And if you, you watch that, she goes, how they make him feel like killing a teller and a bank robbering? How do you think it made him feel, it made him feel terrible? And then we cut to her and I think in that moment, she's like, I'm going to make an example of this guy. I don't like the way he's talking to me, you know, and he has no idea who he's talking to. He's actually talking to a killer. And so this is the kind of guy I think

Sally would have dated, you know, in her youth. And now she's a mother. And so I think these are the ideas that were kind of her men in her life. And now she has a son. And, How are she relating to that son, considering her relationship with men? You know, and how she is still needing Barry to feel safe, which I thought was interesting. She clearly can't stand him. But, you know, when someone knocks on the door, it's like, thank God he's there. She does seem truly unhappy, though, like profoundly depressed, watching John. Just desserts and very funny to see Darcy, you know,

reperforming that character. And, you know, just like not communicating with Barry. And when she does talk, it's in this monotone, almost monoselabic rehearsed performance of wifedom or motherhood or all these things. Well, she's drunk. I don't know about that. That's not true. She's drunk a lot of time.

And then, you know, she gets mad at him. Like when he won't get up to, like, sleep with the kid. And when I also like, when she's like, what do you want for dinner? It's kind of like, you know, she's trying to connect with them, I feel like in that scene when they're on the phone by the gas station, you know, where she's like, there's like a sense of like, yeah, I don't worry about. Like, they just have nothing to talk about.

But she is living his dream. This is his dream, which is that is Barry's perfect life. I'm going to take my, when I have a wife and a kid and basically the same kind of place I grew up, we're going to live out in the middle of nowhere. I can see where anybody's coming from miles away. I never have to leave my house. I order everything. I can sit around.

And then I can read about great men and learn about all the awful shit they did and feel better about myself. And lie to my son. I can be this version. I mean, the biggest thing is I get to be a version of my, the version I've always wanted to be. I can be that to my son. And through this kid's eyes, I can be the guy that I always want. this is his last chance so it's kind of like the only place you can get redemption is from god and this kid you know and sally is almost kind of like in that scene when she when she hits when

it's like she's living barry's dream and i think she likes to be in that situation or she feels like i kind of deserve to be in the situation i think a lot about like what her parents say to her in the first episode her mom's like you don't have a kid and you know she and so she's kind of this this idea hit me of she's kind of now living the life of her character in her tv show that she actually lived so it's this thing of i don't have a kid when she did her show so her show is this kind of like now she's actually living it you know and it's so there's this part of her in my mind at least and And Sarah and I talked about it's a little bit where it's like, yeah, she feels safe and she's sad, but she doesn't, you know, there's no part of her that feels like she can run away from it because she killed somebody. You know, I think that's really what it's it, what it is.

So like when that guy is talking to her at the diner and he's saying all that stuff, you know, I do think it is the thing where she's like, I don't think he knows who he's talking to, you know, because she's killed somebody. and she has a kid with like a bona fide serial killer. So it is a bit of like teaching him a lesson and having some agency in that scene. I am interested in like a couple of different aspects of Barry creating his dream life. One of them is by the end of the episode, it's clear that he is just a full-blown cult figure, even though it's only a cult of three. It really has built this entire world of logic.

and understanding, and even if everyone can tell that it's not real, he's holding the fort together. I was wondering if you could kind of talk about that, how he builds the mythology. Yeah, I mean, I never wanted to, look, I have family members and friends who were very religious, and they get a lot out of it. And so I never wanted to do something that was commenting on religion. It was more of, in my mind, that Barry needs to be forgiven by somebody. And then, you know, you see this a lot, what cons? You know, they go into jail and they find they get religious.

And so it made sense to Duffy and I that he would become religious. But because it's Barry, he doesn't fully understand it. He likes the idea of it. So he doesn't really know the story of the feeding of the 5,000. He doesn't really understand. He doesn't really understand. I think the hardest I laugh in the entire season is when he's walking in the desolate landscape of this kid. And he goes, look at everything God's given us.

And they're just this big. They look like they're on another planet. You know, there's so small in this giant scheme of things. And this kid just looking around like there's nothing there. was Barry Rees with religion? Probably, but I don't think he paid much attention to it. Again, I think it's more of, you know, he's watching YouTube clips, you know, and going, I like the feeling of this. I like the feeling that these people are giving me.

I want some of that guy's mojo. I don't want to understand it. I'm not going to read, you know, but I'm going to, you know, I just, he kind of just reacts to whatever is in front of them, you know. but yeah i don't know if it's so much a cult leader but it i mean with sally he kind of he kind of has all the status in a way because he makes her feel safe so as much as she doesn't like him or feels lonely and feels disconnected from her son you know when there's a knock on the door it's like thank god he's there you know because he will take care of us because she's feeling, you know, guilt and shame that she kills somebody.

I do think there's a part of her that feels like, you know, I can't, I tried to act. I tried to, like, I've completely blown out my life, you know, and she's watching just desserts and it's shit, but that's what people like, you know. And she's going, you know, drinking it going, I could have had this, but it's dog shit. Is that what I would have wanted? Do you know what I mean? Like, it's not, I don't feel like she's watching just desserts going, God, I could have had a show, you know?

It's like, she would never want to do that, you know? But she does seem envious of the smugness of Darcy's character in a way, you know? Like, if only I could be so smug about my life. Yeah, I think she's just kind of just, I don't know. It's, yeah, I don't know if it's so much that. If it's just, it's, again, it's a way of. It's very Catholic. It's a way of punishing yourself for something you've done.

I've killed somebody. I ran away with a murderer, so I am just my lot in life is to be with the violent man, which is what she's talked about, the whole show. And there's just my lot in life. And I'm just going to have to take it, you know, and we're going to be on the run for. forever. Because the other thing she could do is going around by herself and get caught and go to jail. But if she's with Barry, at least she has a fighting chance because he understands how to

do all this stuff and she doesn't. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigued, ask your doctor about Zepbound, terse appetite. The first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zetbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Zetbound contains terseptitite and should not be used with other terseptide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines.

It is not known if Zepound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pins or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop, Zepbound, and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zep bound with a sulfonelioria or emm or emm,

insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsened kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99 or visit Zepbound.lily.com. Can we talk about the role that Abraham Lincoln plays in this episode? My favorite moment is the idea of Barry spending their money and ordering an Abe Lincoln book but not buying his son a comforter.

Yeah. That was very good. But in general, I guess I wanted to understand a little bit better the intent of using Lincoln as a figure at first of someone to sort of aspire to be like and as a sort of model, a success story, as they say, when they're at the dinner table. And then slowly kind of like unraveling his greatness as Barry reads one book or maybe one chapter of one book and explains maybe how he was a more complex figure. Well, he heard about it on YouTube. right. So he heard about it on a video saying, here are the top 10 shitty things he did. And he's really freaked out about it. But I think it also makes him feel

actually closer to Abraham Lincoln, you know? And you know, I think it's interesting. It's Barry's kind of he's like corrupting these very American things for his son. Abraham Lincoln, he's corrupting baseball. He's like, you know, there's it's um in order to keep his son close to him you know with the baseball thing specifically um you have to kind of corrupt these these big american things but what he's like aspiring to is to be the ultimate american thing you know success story you know i got my wife this is what he wants i want my wife my house my kids you know the pick of fence you know this is his warped version

it, you know. So he thinks he's winning, but I found that, you know, that was just an interesting thing that kind of came out in the writing. But yeah, I think Abraham Lincoln, yeah, it's just like it's like you can't get more American than Abraham Lincoln and Abraham Lincoln did some fucked up shit and Barry, that makes him feel great. You know, he does a deeper dive into other people, other great men who've done terrible things. And it makes him feel like. like there's hope for him, you know? And it's, it's his way of telling his kid, you know, like that it's a way that it makes Barry feel better, I think, because then he can have this, you know, great relationship

with his son and be this version of himself to his kid. You know what I mean? So it's like he's feeling better about himself through comparing himself to Gandhi. and he ran Lincoln in St. Augustine. The third most Googled saint. Yeah, the third most Googled saint. And he's able to do that. And at the same time, you know, lie to his kid about that he was a medic in the army and he didn't kill anybody.

And then, you know, that weird scene where he leaves his medals out out in the middle of nowhere. So it's so clearly staged. and, you know, but yeah, he's, this episode to me very, very clearly illustrates, I think, you know, his psychology, which is, you know, I want to be a hero to my son, great men do bad things. And then there's that knock on the door and he's, it's the darkness waiting for him. And he's like, no, I'm going to fucking stare you down. Like, you're not coming for this. Like, I work to, This is all I've wanted my whole life. You know?

He still is gifted when it comes to protecting what he cares about. That's the one thing he's been able to do. Yeah, he'll go out there and face down the thing and be like, like, don't fuck with me. And that's why you needed to see that to go like, this is why Sally's there. You know, because as fucked up and sad as it is, if that, you know, someone came after her, did anything,

like Barry would take care of it. And that's what, that's like her attraction to the bad guy. We do hear some snickering in the darkness there. And, you know, I presume that it's just like local kids playing a joke and running off into the dark. But is it possible that it's something more psychological going on with Barry that he's just haunted somehow? Yeah, I never thought that as like a literal thing. Yeah.

I never wanted it to be a literal thing. Initially, they had, we do loop group for that. So they bring in actors and they just laugh and do different things. And at one point, you heard someone going, come on, let's go. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no. You can't have, you can't. It should just be laughing, you know. Interesting.

So, yeah, to me, it's more of like, you know, you see darkness plays a huge part of the show and especially this season, this idea of like the screen going completely black, things coming in and out of darkness. It's kind of a theme. and that to me at least was, yeah, that darkness is knocking at the door. It doesn't, you know, it's, it finds them, you know, even though they're out in this perfect place,

and Barry effectively stares it down until daylight comes up, you know. And it seems like ultimately a warning of what's to come. Before we go back to Gene quickly, I did want to ask you something. This may be self-recrimination, but there is a part of me, if I'm having a busy day or a busy week or I'm stressed out, that wishes that I could just move with my family to a house in the middle of nowhere. I have one child, you know, and get away from it all.

And I think that some people do fantasize about that when they're going through it. And this movie is, or excuse me, this episode is like a utter rejection of that concept, it feels like. Yeah. Well, this, I think also, when we were mixing it, I was like this very much. The pandemic had a huge part. I feel like I'm at a real effect on my psyche. And I feel like that the pandemic very much plays its way into this episode, you know,

especially the stuff of them ordering things and watching stuff on their laptops and the days being kind of the groundhog day of it all. Too much time on YouTube. Yeah. What, yeah, just YouTube and that making you paranoid and going down weird rabbit holes and becoming obsessed with arcane. facts and yeah, I mean, the other,

my favorite line outside of the, look at everything God's given us, I also really like it when Sally, when she's talking to him and he's telling, he's talking to bear on the phone and he says, I, yeah, no, we're,

you know, learning about the presidents and stuff like that. And she goes, what else did you guys learn? And he goes, what else I teach him? Like, I, yeah, it's, yeah, I really enjoy this episode.

We do eventually return to Los Angeles in this episode. We get a look at Gene Kusinau, who has returned from somewhere, bearded, in an attempt to halt the production of a movie about Barry Berkman. No. Was there any part of you that wanted this entire episode to be, to have none of the story that was just restricted to? just the vast no-warness of Barry and Sally's life? Well, I think it was a, you had to balance it.

Because if you did that, and it was the whole thing, it, I started to just start to have some questions about, well, what's happening. So there was a, you know, there was a thing where you saw where Gene was, which is answered the next episode. So I wasn't, I didn't really want to, it was just kind of a balance. Because initially this episode, when I wrote it, it was half Barry. You're cutting between Barry and Sally and Gene and where they were at. The Barry and Sally stuff was just way more interesting to me.

But yeah, when we get to next week when it's kind of revealed where he's been, I can kind of get more into that. But I thought you needed to keep the story moving somehow. You know, and I think gene resurfacing and. looking the way he is. And, and, and, and also, you know, you kind of want, you didn't want to give away what he's referring to until the very last, the very ending. And then I, and then to me, it was always very fun to have him say, Barry have all these things about taking responsibility, you know, he's painting this version of himself as this kind of pious, man and that he's changed. And then the last line is, I kill Kusino.

And you're like, oh, yeah, all that's bullshit. You know what I mean? Because now there's a new threat, you know? It's kind of like that knock on the door is like a harbinger to this other thing that might be happening, you know? So, yeah, I mean, I kind of just wanted to see, you know, what was happening back in L.A. just for a little bit. And I think it's a nice cut, too, where you're kind of, you're getting into the rhythm of this episode. and then suddenly we're in LA.

Hopefully you're leaning in on those moments instead of saying what the fuck's happening. We do get to see that Mega Girls 4 did happen. It's a quadrilogy, which is exciting for the makers of that film. And Larry Chowder, the magical boy, is also rocking. Larry Chowder, Magical Boy, came from Oliver. Gargaffer was telling us that he worked at,

I think he worked at a video store or his, friend worked at a video store and a woman came in and said i want to um rent larry chowder the magical boy when she meant harry potter and uh that's incredible and i laughed so hard at that so we made larry chowder the magical boy and that guy is mark ashmore who was allegberg's assistant and then became essentially like our script guru. He's the guy that correlated all the scripts, worked on the show, forever, great guy, really good writer. He's also the guy who would just have really interesting.

In season two, he was one that came up with the monastery. Yes, you mentioned this. He was saying, and then Underworld Insight. Yeah, the Underworld Insight guy, that's Mark. Yeah. And he came up with a sand business or told us about it. And he's also a guy that with Alyssa Donovan, they're the two people when I'm editing the show. They usually see the first cuts.

I'm always like gauging their reaction because they're really funny, smart people. And Mark is a really good person to show stuff too. Now forever enshrined as the magical boy. Larry Chowdered the Man, which is weird because I don't know what. that show is because he's just in a he's just like a regular guy he's not a boy it turns out it's a boy yeah it's a great gag

I loved it and that's Frankie Gutman one of our editors is the security guard okay so our editor Ali Greer was the voice of the detonate app she was the woman on the that Barry's on the phone with the detonate app and so this season we had

we let Frankie be on them actually on camera One last question for you. Have you ever had a Google alert on your name? I did. Pre-S&L? No, I was on SNL. I learned what they were, and I was like, oh, maybe I should do this.

See what people are saying about me. And I think I lasted two days. It's evil. And I went, oh, yeah, I don't want to know about this. I love, so was that strictly Sally's Google Alert or does Barry also have a Google Alert? No, I think she has a Google Alert on them just to make sure they're not in the news because they're on the run. So when it comes up and it's him, that's not good. That means something's wrong.

We're getting close to the end. Are things going to get crazier? Tell us what's going to happen. No, man, things get really crazy. I mean, things pick up pace-wise. Yeah, the rest of the episodes are not like this. But I just, this was kind of like, you know, the first four episodes are really moving.

And then it was, you know, kind of to do a very strange, slow number in the middle. And then we pick it back up for the last, last three episodes. I was going to pat my back, pat myself on the back for not using the word lynchian in our conversation here. But I just, I did think of it. I just want you to know. It was on my mind.

Oh, it was very David Lynchy. Yeah, I thought so. That's a high compliment. It's not an insult. Oh, no, I'm not taking as an insult. But just like the banality of the family and violence underneath the surface and, you know, there's a lot of, you know, don't trust, you know, authority figures and the themes are resonant. I mean, I love his movies. I remember seeing Blue Velvet at very young age and having a big impression on me.

but you know who else I want to mention is Emily Spivey plays Sally's co-worker She was a she's an amazing writer And she created the show up all night And then she was a writer on Saturday Night Live When I first started there And it was just one of my favorite people And she was so funny

She's got the great line about the till Near the end of the episode And she doesn't say conscious She says conscious I just fucking put my brain out. Who's the old timer who runs the diner? He's just an actor we brought on. He's a great.

He's right out of a Cullen Brothers movie. He is. He's a memorable voice and memorable face. And his speech is something I used to live in his apartment in LA. I was in my 20s. And the guy running it from, he gave me that exact speech.

Because somebody had run out. Someone had moved out and and didn't, you know, they didn't, he didn't get like a security deposit from them or something. And he was asking me about these neighbors who left and he was so disappointed. He was such a sweet man. He wasn't like from Oklahoma or something like that. He wasn't a cowboy.

But he gave me this big speech about clean living. I always remember. I just had that guy's hit. It does not seem like Barry will be doing clean living. we head to episode six. No, no. Bill, thanks so much. Thanks to our producer, Bobby Wagner,

for his work on this episode.