The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Barry’ Season 4, Episodes 1 and 2 Recap With Bill Hader

Episode Date: April 17, 2023

‘Barry’ is back for its fourth and final season. Sean Fennessey is joined by the show’s cocreator-star-director, Bill Hader, to break down the first two episodes of the season. Host: Sean Fennessey Guest: Bill Hader Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Or sweet vanilla? Smooth caramel maybe. Or a white chocolate mocha. Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks Rappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries. I'm Sean Fennessee and this is the Prestige TV podcast. Just like last season for season three, we talked about Barry with the writer, director, co-creator, star of the show, Bill Hader. We're doing it all over again for season four.

This is the final season of the show. We'll be talking every week about the episode that airs on Sunday night coming to you immediately afterwards. So, let's go to my conversation with Bill Hater about episodes one and two. Hi, Bill. Hi. Thanks for coming back to do this show. Did you have any trepidation after our chats last season? No, I really enjoyed our chats last year.

They're really fun. So, yeah, no, this is great. Let's start with episode one. You know, I felt like when we were discussing the show last season, that you didn't necessarily have a master plan for the arc. of Barry. Did you know when you sat down

at the start of season four where you wanted to take the story? No, I mean, I will say like during season two, I had an idea of what the very ending

of the show would be. That was very kind of clear in my head. But how we got there, I didn't know how we got there and how we got there was much different than the way I initially thought

it would go down. But how it ends, Um, it, that, that came through pretty much the way I thought it would. But so yeah, when we sat down in the summer of 2020, so the pandemic happened. And we said, well, what can we write season four while we're waiting for the world to reopen? And we had a Zoom room. And we just started talking about season four. And in talking about season four, we had to go back and kind of realize what was wrong.

with season three and we started making things around so three and four in my mind kind of are like one big season you know it kind of all links together in a way hopefully the whole show does that from pilot to the final episode um but definitely three and four as we're written and kind of at the same time so but it was the thing that happens every year we're like all right he's in prison what happens what do we do and I think the thing that always helps is when you you approach it from a character standpoint and an emotional standpoint of what are they feeling and how can we show that and I think very early on I had this idea of of Barry having these visions and and that would help us kind of get out of the visuals of just being in a prison you know that was kind of one

one of the first ideas. I have a lot of questions about various psychology. But did you know as you were setting down to start three that four would be the end? Or was there a version of this show that had seven or 12 seasons? No, there was never a version at seven or 12 seasons, but we definitely didn't know where it was going to head. And then as we were mapping it out and we got towards the end of the season, it just started to feel, I remember talking to Duffy Boudreau and Liz Sarnoff, two of the writers in saying, you know, it really feels like this, this is where it wants to end. But I didn't want to fully say that until we start writing the scripts, because sometimes when you start writing it, this is just an outline form.

And then when you write it, things start happening and shifting. And you go, oh, gosh, you know, this might happen. And that could be another season. But as we were writing the scripts, by the time we got to, I would say, episode four. I was like, yeah, this is the last season. And we had written the first four episodes by the time we started to shoot. And so that was, I think we had written the first six episodes or versions of the first six episodes. But one through four were really solid by the time we started to shoot.

And I was able to tell HBO in the cast like, hey, this is the last season, you know. How did they react to that? Was it like, thank goodness or no, keep going? Like what is that late with a number? Everybody was better sweet and, you know, I think HBO understood. They've always been, Amy Gravitt over there has been just an amazing partner. Unbelievable. So she really understands story too.

You know, she's really smart. And so she, when I explained to her at what the story was, she went, yeah, oh, that makes sense. So, okay. You know, and it was just like a very quick conference. And then it was like, yeah, well, whatever you want to do, you know, it was very, very supportive, you know. Must be nice. That's lovely. Yeah. You directed every episode this season.

Why did you make a decision? Well, that came partially from two things. One, I, as a show progressed, I became more and more confident as a director. And as I think I've told you, it's the thing I've always wanted to do. so it was really chomping at the bit to do more of it. And then by the time we were on season three, I mean, Alec Berg directed three episodes,

but I was definitely there kind of, you know, stating my opinion and probably driving him crazy. And, you know, I just became very, very clear with how I thought things should be. and look and and uh and then i think iida rogers our producer uh i remember we were it was our last night of shooting season three we were shooting the scene where barry and kusina were in front of jim moss's house at night we were it was that confrontation scene and we're shooting that and uh iita rogers and i were talking about she she said how's season four coming along because

i was already talking with the writers we were trying to like get out of outlines and things ready for forks. We're going right into it. And she said, I think you should direct every episode. Because I think I can do it in the schedule where you won't die. But I think it's worth it because you have such a clear vision. And I think actually production wise, it makes more sense because it's all coming. There's no game of telephone anymore.

It's very clear. It's coming straight from you. it's not coming from other people or well, Bill said that he wants it this way and you know what I mean? And so she's like, I just think it'll streamline the whole process.

And it, and it did. You know, our hours on the show between her and Gavin Kleintop and our department heads, we were a well-oiled machine for season four. I mean, we would try to keep

it like maximum on like eight to 10 hour days. And we did a 12 hour day, that meant like, oh my God, something went wrong. You know, we were moving really fast. And so it was a grime, but it was a lot of fun, a lot of fun. I know a handful of people,

and I think it's only really a handful of people who've done what you did, you know, who have directed the entirety of a season. Sam Esmiel comes to mind. I think he did that for Mr. Robot at some point. And it sounds like it's like pretty gruel. particularly on the director, the filmmaker. In addition to, you know, you appearing in the show and, you know, conceiving of episodes and things.

I mean, were you, like, totally burnt out on the series by the time you got to the end? I would say by the last block, by the time we were doing episode seven and eight, and then we had to do pickups for episodes three and four at the end of the season, I was really burnt out, yeah. But it was still fun. and we were doing great stuff, but I was really, yeah, I went a little bananas, you know, not like I went crazy, but I was just exhausted. I was like, yeah, really, really exhausted. But Iido was able to schedule in a way where we had these hiatus weeks and I was able to,

but the problem was during the hiatus weeks, you know, was this thing where it's like, you have two days off. You should do nothing in these two weeks, two days, don't do anything. But then On these two days, we need you to write episode eight, you know, because we need to start prepping episode eight, you know? So then I would wake up early in the morning, I would sleep for two days, and then wake up early in the morning and they're just write and call Duffy Boudreau and call Liz Sarnoff and write and kind of send them pages and call the actors and say,

I'm singing this or that, you know, and then you get it done. And then you're sending stuff to the department heads. and then you send to HBO and they go, yeah, it was great, you know. And so it was a, you know, as someone, a filmmaker friend of mine pointed out to me that in the past year and a half, I have essentially directed,

you know, created what amounts to four movies or two-hour movies in the past year and a half. So yeah, I want to do it. now. I'm sorry. You're stop doing this. Yeah, no, I will say what got me through it was, I mean, I stress ate like crazy. I put on like 25 pounds and that, you know, doing season three and four, I put on a lot

of weight for me. And, but what helped was like meditating and just trying to, you know, just focus on one thing at a time. It's that whole mountain climber thing. You know, you can't look at the top or you'll get freaked out. It was just like, oh, what are we focusing on today and just like focus on one thing? And then it was actually really fun, you know. Did you set specific goals for yourself as a filmmaker before the season of things you wanted to try or, you know, even from a, you know, structural or technical perspective that you wanted to.

Really, I just wanted it to feel the big of a piece, you know, I just wanted to all feel like it was one visual language for the whole. whole thing. And a lot of that is kind of, I think this season directing wise, I felt much more intuitive and less, oh, I got to, yeah, you do get to a place where you go, oh, let's do a big motorcycle chase, you know, and it's like, can we do something like that and push yourself to do something like that and try it? It was more almost going the other way with it and saying, like, what's the kind of, what's, you know, go to quieter moments or things that are more.

you know, what's the best way to direct us to get the story across? You know, it was coming up with the story first and understanding the emotions and everything. And it's like, well, then how can we, you know, show that cinematically in a way that that's interesting. And so and having confidence and knowing that like, oh, this is just a scene with like two shots, you know, and it's just two people talking to each other. And that's, that's all it needs to be. You don't need to do anything else, you know. So it was just having the kind of confidence to do that. I think in the past, I'd be like, oh, let's have the camera way over here and do this and do that, you know, because you're anxious and you want to like try stuff, you know.

I was wondering if the, like, a claim you received for that, that episode of season three was, I think it was seven, the motorcycle chase. If that made it six, six, did that make it easier for you to have that feeling of like, you know what? let's just do what makes sense here and not necessarily over-imagined. Yeah, the acclaim never really does anything. It's more of like you get it out of your system, but also if you're writing an episode season four and something came up that made sense, then you would try it, you know? So that season, it just made sense that it was like,

oh, we could have a big chase sequence if we wanted to hear. Oh, that's fun. Yeah, let's do that, you know. Or the Ronnie Lilly episode in season two where it just wants. you know, let's see a hit go wrong and make that the whole episode of the hit gone wrong. But this is, this season, it just felt it was much more driven by the characters, you know. I mean, it does have hopefully a narrative, a propulsive narrative, which I personally really like. But hopefully it's all driven by character, you know, it was a big.

You still have a few moves that I think we'll talk about as we go through the season. There's some sequences that are exciting and unique. Yeah, I think it was like a little thing each episode would have a sequence in it that we thought was interesting. You know, that Carl Herssey is a DP and Eric Schoonover, the production designer, and then the editors, Ali Greer and Frankie Gutman and our sound mixer's Matt and Sean, like they're all, there are certain things as we get to them that you got really stoked on. you know, oh, this is really exciting. I'll get to do this. Let's take into episode one. It's called Yikes. It's written and directed by you. The episode opens with a wide-eyed prison guard, revealing the awestruck quality of celebrity, even in a prison. And I feel like this theme emerges right away on the show where it's like becoming famous for the worst thing in your life and the people who observe that about you. And I thought a lot about the conversations that we had last year when you talked about how much true crime.

you watch. And I was wondering if that's born out of that, that idea and those sequences. That was more of like, yeah, just the kind of idea that Barry is now, and all the characters are now famous, you know, that they're always, they went to this acting class and there was always this hope, but maybe we'll make it, you know, as actors. And now they're famous. You know, you'll see in episode two where Sally, at a place and people are whispering and they turn and look at them and Barry has it in this episode

where people are looking at it. Gene Kusno goes out to do his show and everybody stands up and applauds for him. You know, it's like there's like this new, you know, reporters want to talk to them. There's this new notoriety that they wanted, but now it's, yeah, for for Sally and Barry, at least it's for totally the wrong reason, you know. And also this idea which hopefully plays into to the, you know, the show when you see the whole season of, that's the guy on TV, you know, and what the TV means. And, and, and, and, yeah, and that idea. Yeah, it's kind of hard to explain.

But it was just like a theme of seeing things on television. And that guy was on TV. He's there. And now he's there. You know, it's like, that guy's name is Jermaine Alexander. he's a very good actor, very sweet guy. And I really like how he, his audition. He improvised that.

He's there. He's on the TV. And now he's like, he's like he can't believe. Like his head, his mind can't wrap around like what he's seen. So, yeah. And that was interesting because we shot in a real prison for some of this. And it just had this kind of weird like crowsnest thing. And when we were scouting it and looking out,

I was like, oh, this could be an interesting opening shot. You're on the guy. And then Barry in the background motivates it around and leads us to the television. It kind of gives you all the information in one panning shot. That actor has also an incredible look on his face near the end of the episode when he confronts Barry. Yeah, I really love his that moment. Yeah, even the sweetest guy. and he just says that that thing of, yeah,

we're better than the worst thing we ever done. And then very, yeah, Barry finally is able to, that was a big thing. The writers, you know, like, what if Barry in the first episode finally just tells someone like, I'm a cop killer, and I'd kill you and I'd kill your family. And he's trying to, you know, you can't say he's doing it under guys like what, you know,

a suicide by cop type thing. But, you know, he's looking at himself in the mirror in that scene. And then he, he's just fully alone. And that's when he admits it, you know, to this very sweet fan, you know, which, you know, that was the kind of idea that this is what you always want. And now he has a fan. And this is how he reacts to it, you know. This is kind of dicey territory, but does any of your experiences as a notable person informed some of the, this stuff? No, I've never told a fan. I was going to, I killed him. No, I, uh, but sometimes, you know,

there, there is moments where, you know, I'm a pretty private person and there's moments where, you know, I've had people come to my house, which is like, no fun. I remember I, I, I bought a house and didn't have it under my name or anything and, and the movie It, too, had come out. Um, and I was pulling out of my driveway and someone had tied a red balloon on my mailbox. Oh my God. That wasn't fun. Holy shit. That sucks.

Oh, my God. That's crazy. Shit like that happened. It does affect you. You know, I think that's why, you know, I don't really take pictures or anything like that or anything. I try to be as polite as possible, but yeah, it, it is sucks because most of the people are very, very.

kind and very nice, but you have enough weird moments. Yeah, it does kind of ruin it for everybody else, I guess. I do want to talk about the visions that Barry is having. You know, earlier in the episode, he sees Gene walking across the yard,

and we see that kind of like this unresolved beef now between Gene and Barry is kind of like a thread of this story for this season. And, you know, later after he's brutally beaten by the prison guard, He sees this vision of a kid kind of waving in the sunlight. And the show feels different. You know, I've seen a bit ahead.

But even what you see in these first two episodes, you're using something that was maybe inflected in season three episodes, but feels like firmly a part of the storytelling now with this kind of like psychological examination that seems to be happening of the characters. And it almost like a disorientation for the audience. I was hoping you could just kind of talk about, you know, using that more aggressively and telling the story. Yeah, I think you always just are trying to find ways to visually tell something instead of having like a big speech. And if you're going to have a big speech or a lot of dialogue and you're trying to tell a story in 30 minutes, you know, when I watch TV, a lot of it is dialogue heavy

and it's people having to explain what's happening. And if you could try to get away from that in certain ways. And I'll say, you know, a lot of times you write it in a way that is like that, and then I get bored or frustrated, and then I'm driving into work and go, hey, you know that whole, you know, what Barry says to the prison guard? What if that is just like a vision that he has, you know, um, and the visions, you know, it gives you a feeling and you can take what you want, but that's kind of like what he chooses to think about when he's knocked out. And he used to sound in that scene of bringing back in the ocean and the sky opening up from season three, you know, he thinks he's going to die maybe.

And then where does he go? He kind of goes to this, his own heaven or, you know, this place that made him happy as a child. Yeah. So I don't know. I mean, some of it is kind of just intuitive. You just go, well, what's he feeling right now when he's in the prison? He's feeling like these people are going away from me, you know, and what I'm left with is fuchs, you know?

And that was kind of the idea with that scene on the yard. And, you know, I think it's also very important that before what happens before that, which seems so simple, but it took us forever in the script to figure it out was. that Kusno needed to say, Kusno and Sally needed to say like, fuck you. You know, we want nothing to do with you. So he feels very alone. And the two kind of people that were driving him into this new world were made him feel like a human and a good person want nothing to do with him anymore. And one actually is celebrating, you know, I got you, you know. So it's difficult for him in that moment.

And then what he does is I think what I think some people do, you know, you have those relationships, whether it's parents or whatever, where you don't like those people and you can't stand him. And then when things get really hard for you, that's the person you can go back to and that's Fuchs for him. Where he's like, Fuchs, I'm sorry. You know, and I think Steven Root's amazing in that scene

just a look on his face. He's so surprised that very, you know, says the thing that he wanted him to say all through season three, which is just apologize and understand why it is that you hurt me, you know?

And it's like, I shouldn't have listened to you. I shouldn't listen to Kusina. I should have listened to you. You were right. You know, we'd be better off of it. I hadn't tried to like better myself. Yeah, it's like, that's all Jukes wanted to hear, you know? And Barry finally gives it to him.

It felt like the show, took its time in the first couple of seasons explaining why Barry is the way that he is and it feels like this season and aspects of last season too feel more definitively searching and trying to explain how someone gets to this point. Was that something that you specifically knew you wanted to do a little more clearly this season?

Well, I feel like it came, it comes about when it makes sense for the story and season one it really didn't make sense, you know, And we would talk about that, like, oh, shouldn't there be a flashback to like what he was like in season one? And I really didn't care. I just said that we're just, I always approach it like how you meet people on life. You meet them. And for the most part, you kind of know them on this one level that they want to present themselves as. And it isn't until you know them for a while that then you might find out some massive secret they have.

And Barry's case, it's season two where it's like, I kill. an unarmed, you know, civilian in Afghanistan and was court-martial for it. And that, to me, was kind of like, this is the birth of the guy, you know. But there was no reason before that, to me, that would help the story to show him being younger. But now that he's in prison and he's reflecting on it. And I think kind of where the story, I know you're ahead of it, where the story ends up going, it made sense to go, oh, this is something very much rooted in him. And, you know, Stephen Root also said, I had no idea that Fuchs Newberry when he was a kid.

And I said, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's known him since he was a little kid. And they played Army together. And, you know, and it's, you know, you were in war with his dad. And so you, there is a, a, they, father, he's a father figure, you know, and he's manipulated Barry and taken his natural abilities to, you know, for his own gain and everything. But there is this kind of, he's watched him grow up and he has like a real love for him, you know, as fucked up as, you know. So by Barry

saying, I'm really sorry. That's like his son, a son saying like, dad, I'm sorry, you know. And it's hard for him, you know, at the end, you know, that's why at the end, he's like, no, I'm sorry. You know, it's just them putting their shit aside. And then I, yeah, I'm jumping ahead, but I do like it in episode two when then Fuchs tells those FBI agents. He's like, it was really shitty that you, what you guys tried to make me do. When he was the one that was like, I'll give you what you won. Then he's like, yeah, that was really lame what you guys are trying to pull back there. you know this is like a little bit of an overread and we're getting into episode two but it had a little you know it being david warshowski i couldn't help but think of uh there will be blood and and hw and daniel and the father and the son and the protection there you know there's just a little flash on on a movie that i know we both like it was he in that there we would yeah he plays one of the like uh standard oil men who tries to know that yeah oh that's cool yeah i had no idea oh that's cool he's a great actor he's such a

He's such a sweetheart. He was so nice. Oh, that's cool. Now, I did not. That was not, I had no idea until just now that he was in there. Obie Blodden. Yeah, I needed to see that movie. You know, I've only seen that movie once.

I saw at the premiere. What? Not seen it since. Wow, you just, that's, I, I'm shocked to hear that. Let's, let's, let's talk about Sally. I, I mentioned this to you. I feel like there's some, some Lynchian stuff going on this season. I think maybe, um,

the dirty fingernails coming over the airplane seat is one of the more haunting images I think you've put on the show. And I think it kind of sets the tone for where Sally's going this season. And then I think very quickly it feels like there's this allusion to the hashtag, has Justine landed yet meme? I don't know if that was on your mind when the torrent of text messages came across Sally's phone. I don't know what that is. Oh, really? Oh, God. there was a woman who

tweeted something very racist like eight or nine years ago and she was on an airplane and she was kind of like fully canceled on an airplane talking about this in the book. Yes, it's in his book, exactly. Yeah, John Thompson took it. Yeah.

That just occurred to me as I was watching this of like... No, I didn't. No, it didn't. It was just again, it's kind of like what would happen. She would land and her phone would be blowing up. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just tell me like what you were thinking for sale. heading into the season because it just feels like things go from bad to worse for her.

Yeah, you know, where is she retreat? She goes back home and then it was interesting to see what was her home life like and her relationship with her mother in particular. And Romy, that's the actress who plays her mother's amazing. She also happens to be married to Stephen Rube. So she's like a friend of the show. And we were at a thing together at Henry Winkwood's house, the cast. crew because Henry's the nicest guy and he had this part, this like kind of brunch at his house to kick off season three, I think. I think it was three. And I was just like, I don't know what it was. Maybe it was for. Anyway, by just looking at Romaine, I was like, man, she would be good. And our casting director was there. And she was like, I think she'd be good as Sally's mom. I was like, yeah. I was like, okay. So yeah, it was before three because then I wrote it when I was writing it. I wrote it for her. So then

So yeah, she was just amazing And just seeing that Sally is She doesn't really have any place to go You know, she goes home And then kind of like Barry You're kind of understanding where the root Of all their issues come from And that Sally kind of came from a pretty

Standard Midwestern family You know, that don't talk about anything And that her mother I think is you know, I think as you, you know, we had a scene where the mother said lines like, you've always been so dramatic,

you know? And it was just really shitty. And I was like, oh, it can't be this, but it's just like, you're trying to get scripts done. And so then you go, well, how can you show that? And it's like, oh, what if she has a panic attack in front of her? And the mother's reaction to that, that tells you

the whole story, you know? So that, that, you know, that, that, you know, that, that, that, You try that. You write the version where they get into an argument. And she says, the guy dated back home was this. And the mom goes, oh, of course, that's what happened.

And doesn't believe her. It's much more interesting to watch her have a panic attack and hold in one shot. And the mom just go, she's just lived with this forever. You know, like Sally's overdramatic, you know. And so she doesn't believe her. And then so I think Sally kind of goes home wanting to be held, I think. And I think the most vulnerable I've ever seen her on the show is when she says, Mom, I think I'm in a lot of trouble and I need your help.

I really love that scene. And I like the way they played it. And again, that kind of goes to what I was saying earlier about directing. It's just two shots. It was just two sizes. It was one size on each of them. And that's it, you know, and saying, we don't need anything else. I just want to watch.

And the big thing I told both those actors was they kept on wanting to look at each other, which is what you want to do in a scene. And I said, don't look at each other. Because let the tension build up and then look at her right at the end where she says, well, I can't talk to if you're going to yell at me. You know, I can't do this if you're going to yell at me. And then that just sets the whole thing off. You know, they did such a beautiful job in that scene.

I'm kind of going all the place. But to me, that scene was very much the kind of root of Sally's. You understand a lot about her and why she is the way she is. Because she's not taken seriously. She's not listened to. You know, her father doesn't really care about her. He just trying to placate it and just patched it up. He's not really listening.

I had to laugh it. That sounds like a rough situation. My favorite line of his is, there she is, under Dad's Death. Like, doesn't acknowledge at all what's going on. That's a very Midwestern thing. And so, yeah, you know, I think she just feels very alone. And I think she went back there for help, but also you go, oh, this woman on someone was just,

never held. She never felt safe. And that's what Barry brings to her. She's having these visions of this guy. And we initially had a second vision and we cut it out because it just didn't work when she hugs her dad at the end of that scene where he goes, hey, you come and work for me and hugs her. When he steps back, it was the guy that she killed. And it felt like this is what it's good about having two editors who are great, but also like snobs. They're were like, Bill, this is really late. I was like, oh, you guys don't think it works? They're like, it's really stupid.

I was like, oh, okay. All right, let's not do it. I didn't feel like it was missing. Yeah, no, you didn't need it. They're great. That's why I love them, but they'll go, they just don't. Yeah, you don't want people who mince words. I go crazy when people are like, huh, well, you know, it did, you know, they try to,

they manage you. I'd rather someone just go, this is dumb. This is like a dumb, like shining, like, you're trying to do like a shining moment or something because Sarah had this take where she's like all like Shelly Deval on the shining, you know, and it was really, you know, dumb. So I'm glad to cut it.

It does feel like you're doing the same thing with Sally, though, that you're doing with Barry, which is that, you know, in season three, we get a little bit more insight into her experience with domestic violence. In season four, we kind of understand her psychology. It does feel like parents who don't know or parental figures who don't know how to care for their kids is a huge kind of originating theme of the show now.

I don't know if that's the sort of thing you're talking about. Yeah, where it comes from and then, yeah, how they live, you know, how that affects those people and like the tools you're given at a young age. and that most people just want to feel held and feel safe, you know, with parents. And when you can't feel that way, you're kind of groundless, you know, when you're kind of, yeah, it's hard to trust things. Or you become a control freak like Sally, you know, in some degree of like, I'm just going to march in there. And, you know, season one, I'm going to be Macbeth, you know what they mean?

because you get why she she is that way, you know, it's like this is the only way it can get, be heard or to get anything. You know, I think Sarah will probably be able to, would be able to explain it much more eloquently than me. But it, again, it's just a feeling. It just, you kind of looking for a thing and you just go, that feels honest, that feels right. And you kind of write towards that.

And then we'll do rehearsals. then the actors will then say, you know, the idea of her feeling safe, you know, in episode two, the scene with me and Sarah in the prison, you know, Sarah was really the one that came, you know, because I was talking to her about it and I said, you know, I think very, you know, it's, you know, he always saw her as a star, you know, she loves him so much because he sees, he sees her as like a star, you know, it's a thing from, I kept going back to that scene. in episode and season one where she goes, do you think I'll be a star?

And he's like, yeah, of course. Because he's never met an actor before. So he was like, yeah, you're the best actor I've ever seen. And that's why she really connects to him because he's like obsessed with her in some level. And we talked about that. And then Sarah says something. She goes, I also feel like he makes her feel safe.

And that really just, that set off a thing in my mind where I went, that's it. That links to everybody. You know, everybody has that. You know, so that was really helpful. And that's what helps me have really smart actors who are also good writers. And Sarah and Anthony especially are so intuitive like that. Yeah, I want to talk about Hank and Chris the ball as a segue. I'm jumping all over the place here.

Sorry. I think it's helpful to jump around because I feel like talking about Hank and Christabal through episodes one and two is interesting because we see kind of like we don't spend a ton of time with them in episode one. We just kind of see the kind of hatching of this scheme that they're getting ready to return to Los Angeles

and then eventually it was going to lead to some inevitable reunions. But I don't think I was expecting to see them like together and in love and in a relationship. I wasn't sure what to expect at the end of season three because of how traumatic everything was. So maybe you can talk about where you wanted to take them. Well, we wanted to start them in heaven, you know, which was Santa Fe,

which is what they want to do in season three. And we always kind of thought, like, well, they should be in Santa Fe. And we did have a version of it where you really saw them in Santa Fe for a while, where they were hanging out with other couples. and going to art museums. And we, you know, that was part, I mean, I was looking at an old prep schedule and it had, we were going to go to Santa Fe and do a big,

you know, a scout in Santa Fe to see places to shoot and everything. And her, the story, this is what is so great about Duffy Boudreau and Loua Sarnoff, is that I will kind of go into like, oh, here's what these scenes could be. And this is so interesting. And then you present. it to them and have an outline form and they say, what does this have to do with anything? You know? And how does this move things forward? And well, if you're moving things forward, why can't you just immediately get to this idea of the sand? Like, they're happy, they're in love.

And the scene, the complete thought is of their first scene together is they're in love. you know, he's a 10man, you know, no-ho's Dorothy. They're living their fairy tale life. And then when that door shuts and you cut to Hank, you go, okay, Hank's different. He's not, he's still living with what happened at the end of season three. And then this idea of the, this woman mentioning about the sand kind of shows that, yeah, that thing that part of their brain can't turn off. off. You know, they both have the same thought, which is like, and again, it's in their nature,

just in the way that it's in Barry's nature to kill people. It's in Kusina's nature to want to be the center of attention, and he's a narcissist, you know what I mean? You know, it's in their nature that they go, they can't help it, but go, fuck, we can make so much money up to us, you know. I need to give credit, Mark Ashmore, our, uh, uh, he, he was, Al, assistant and then he became kind of our script the guy in charge of all the scripts he was the guy that you would go to and say what's the name of so-and-so or you would hand you know feed stuff to he's he's he's and he's a really good writer and he's a guy that when we cut stuff i always i always just want him in the room because he's he's a really good audience and he gets to show and he asked really interesting

questions he came up with the sand he he called me about the sand thing that's a real thing he's also the one in season two that told me about the monasteries he's like you know there's these monasteries or like he just has these weird facts that we've put they've become has he been working in the criminal underworld

I don't know no I have no idea how he knows these things but he's a really sweet guy yeah it's in their nature and and and but then what was interesting to us was that by the end of the episode it should

It took us a while to figure this out. It's like, oh, but Hank is lying to Cristobal. For Christobal, it's about the same. But for Hank, it's about Barry. And you needed to see how Barry getting caught affected everybody. Like, that was what the first episode needed to be and how him, Barry getting caught, how it's pushing everyone else's story.

And so that was a big, that was kind of a big moment of, of realization and it infuses every scene is underneath every scene is about him somehow you know you know even the stuff with kousinot and jim moss in the back of the thing about the vanity fair reporter and all that it it's all about like barry being caught and you know he's underneath the surface of a lot of these scenes for these characters yeah i i had effectively written that down that every key character in the series is now just haunted by the wreckage that Barry has created. And part of the reason I asked you the true crime question is because I feel like that does happen to people, right?

These things become definitional for their lives. That's the thing that I always was very, for the whole show, wanted to make sure that people weren't, you know, I don't like it when you see something where a crime happens or something happens and then people just kind of, because it's a story, you need them to move on and forget about it. you know, I remember very early on saying Janice Moss is going to be a part of this story until the last episode. You know, because like when someone dies is murdered, you need to, it needs to, it affects people in a very deep way and it haunts people. Sally, once he kills that guy, he's going to haunt the show for the rest of the, you know what I mean?

Like, he's just, he, that has to be there, you know. So that's a very much a theme of like, you can't, I don't like it when someone, like, if she killed somebody and then now she's a badass and she moves on and is able to do stuff, it's like, no, it's like, I don't think that for her, that's not going to work, you know. So, yeah, it was really important for me. And also that, I think it's also something that's interesting. Barry's he's done only things that's haunted these people and really hurt them. And then you see, like, you know, how weirdly kind of thoughtless he is and selfish he is.

And he's not really thinking things through that much. He's not bright. You know, he kind of reacts to things. You know, it's like he sees fuchs, he feels something, so he says it. He sees Sally in prison. he feels something. So then he's like, well, fuck Fuchs. I'm going to go with her.

Do you know what I mean? He doesn't really think, how's that going to affect Fuchs? He's just like, well, I want this. You know, he's kind of, there's something pure it about him of just going, what will make me feel good right now, you know? And that thoughtlessness does end up ruining other people's lives, you know? So I guess what I'm saying is if he had a little of empathy, maybe he wouldn't have killed anybody, A, and he would at least be, he would at least understand

why people are, I don't think there's a part of him still that he's the victim in all this, you know, when Kuzon was like, I got you, Barry, just feeling sorry for himself. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigued, ask your doctor about Zepbound, terseptite, the first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zetbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Zetbound contains terseptitide and should not be used with other terseptite

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Let's use that as a way to get into episode two, which is called Best Displace on Earth, and you also directed and is written by Nikki Hirsch. Is that right? Yeah. And, you know, while I understand what you're saying, I also think you're complicating that idea by showing us Fuchs effectively grooming him at like nine or ten years old, potentially to become a tool for him? And so like if he lacks empathy,

I don't know. That was how I saw it. Yeah, I mean, I didn't say, you know, in making, I didn't see it that way. I think Fuchs was like, oh, it's this boy that I'm hanging out with because he doesn't know that he has any sort of real talent, you know. I think that probably came later in my read of it.

Although just the line, maybe one of these days you'll let me play Army with you is kind of haunting, though. Yeah, it is haunting. That is true. So we're asking for it. I'm asking for it by having that line in there. So I get it. I always thought it was, yeah, I just liked it.

And then playing Army, but that is true, I guess. Yeah, it's funny. It's like you do these things. You go, no, that's not it. And then it's not yours anymore. and you kind of go, oh, man, maybe you're right. I like that opening, though. I really, you know, we built a set out in Lancaster.

So that's a jail cell that's out in Lancaster. And then the kid actually, so there's no visual effect with that. The kid just runs out to them. And then I like that we, it's all just in that big wide shot. We don't go any close ups or anything. So it kind of feels a little unreal and far away. And the other reason I did it that way was I just didn't want to put Stephen and young makeup. So I was like, can we just keep him far away?

Because I just always feel like that looks weird. It also feels like it's not necessary. I wonder how credulous you want the audience to be during that sequence because it's a memory or a dream or something that is happening after he's been beaten. and then we see this kind of wedding party racing forward, which leads to this shift to revealing what looks like an older version of Barry and Sally dancing together. And, you know, how much of this is, you know, imagine how much of this is a pure memory of what's transpired.

You know, I'm sure there's like a middle ground there. No, I think, I mean, the real answer is, is that there was a version of that, of where I, It was written where Barry is in his jail cell and he's thinking and then you hear a baby, you know, kind of make a noise. And then Sally is suddenly in the jail cell and she's like, oh, here, honey. And then the camera pans over to reveal that we're in the jail cell. And then Sally comes in behind Barry and it reveals that the jail cell then turns into a living room and a house.

and then you see a kitchen. We follow Sally into this very nice house. And then Barry's watching her from the prison part, you know, it's kind of all one set as she's feeding a baby. And then she turns them and it's like, do you want your breakfast? And then he, in the beaten up and the face, he sits down at the table and she gives him his paper.

And it's kind of like what he wants, right? And so I wrote that. Amy Gravitt at HBO went, oh, this is really on the nose. I went, yeah, I don't know. I'm searching here. I'm just trying to get the emotions down, you know? And Duffy Boojo was like, yeah, I don't love it.

It's pretty on the nose. Yeah. And then one morning I woke up and just, I don't know why when, you know, it's five in the morning or something your subconscious is really going crazy or whatever and just wrote that wedding thing. So they're there.

And then there's a movie called Night of Shooting Stars. And these Italian movies have this where you'll see a wedding party out in the middle of nowhere. So it kind of, I don't know, maybe it came from that. But just this image came in my head of a wedding party. And then we follow it. And then it takes us, I mean, just what you see. and then this idea of very, you know, maybe it's that, you know, he wants to grow old with her.

And that's, and initially it wasn't them dancing. Initially, we landed on them and there was a guy telling them a boring story. And they were like patiently listening, but like squeezing each other's hand and giving each other little looks and smiling like, God, this guy's boring. And it wasn't as good as dancing. It was like, you know, I think Liz was like, why don't you make them dancing? Make you let it be romantic. And so that's just kind of what it is. And that's just, I guess I just illustrate it.

Like, I don't know what it really means, but just kind of the process of you start out with like an emotion. And then you go, well, how can you write it in a way that that gives you that feeling? But it's not, but it, you know, it's more of a, in his mind, it's, it's just more of a intuitive, weird. thing that hopefully is much more interesting to look at. Why does that kind of ultimately lead to his decision to dime on everybody and talk to the FBI? I think he sees a future. You know, he sees a future with Sally

and he sees this, you know, this idea of a future with her. And that's what he wants. And it really is. It's like, you know, Fuchs and him as a kid, that idea suddenly just gets taken over by this other thing, distracts him, you know. And that was interesting, too, because we built a giant hallway in a tunnel out in the middle of this field.

And that poor wedding party, it was awful out there. I mean, the women are all wearing boots. And there was just burrs everywhere. I felt so terrible for these actors, but they did a great job. And the groom is a guy named Luca. He's been my stand-in on the show forever. So that's my stand-in. Luca.

I'm glad that he got on screen. He's a wonderful guy. And then once they come into the thing, then there's like a, the biggest issue with that was getting the sunlight out, going from sunlight to super dark. And so that's why those sconces are on the wall to kind of help that that transition. And so, yeah, once they kind of come in, the first four people come in, a big kind of door comes down and that cuts out all the sunlight.

And then we just did the same move, brought the same wall into a banquet hall and Oxnard someplace and just try to redo the move. But we didn't do a motion camera. We just matched it, like lined it up and matched it. And it took, it was really... So it's a cut? So, yeah, there's a cut in there where the minute she comes in, there's a stitch. And now we're... You can't tell.

Now we're two... We're like two months earlier in Oxnard. And really, it's Luca. And I forget the actress's name. I feel terrible. But she was Sarah's... stand in for a couple of days. She was fantastic. And they had to match their body movement like perfectly. And we just showed them. Here's what you did in Oxnard at the banquet hall. And they

watched it. And there was like a click track that went like that. And they matched. They just looked at it and matched their movements to a T to like the atom. And that's what made it feel so seamless. Yeah. Wow. Well, that's, it was really cool. We laid it on top of each other. We laid both images on top of each other on set. And everybody went, what? Everybody cheered. Everybody was like, no, my God, how did they do that? You guys did such a good. And also our Dolly grip, Jim and the camera operator, Don, I mean, they just, you know, we're unbelievable. It's a big group effort. It really works. And it's an interesting way to kind of pivot Barry into clarity and fuchs into kind of inverted clarity where he, because he feels like he's

mended fences with Barry, he doesn't have to work with the FBI anymore. And now he can become, I guess, a crime lord inside the prison walls. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, I think in the moment right now, he's kind of just, he's reeling, you know, he's just, he can't believe. Well, you know, it's like, I like the line, no ho has where he says, what are these song titles? You know, he's kind of like love is nothing. Everything's lost. Like he's just kind of, you know, he lost his buddy. So he's just, he's in the, he's going through the stages of grief, you know.

And I don't think I'm, I don't think I mentioned this to you about the last episode, but, you know, you had Charles Parnell and Worshavsky and Patrick Fischler emerges as the VF journalist. And we also see Matt Servido as Fuchs's, lawyer in this episode who people will recognize from the Sopranos. Like, I mentioned this to you last season. You have a knack for the that guys, you know, the actors that were like, oh, him. I got to give credit to Sherry Thomas, our casting director. She just, I don't ask for these people. Sherry Thomas goes out and goes, you know, who would be great in this? So she deserves all the credit for that. I don't, I never. The only person I asked for this season, and I think he comes in in the next episode is Richard Rieley.

We could talk about when we get to that episode. But yeah, that's the only person I ever asked for. Everybody else was like she brought to me. My favorite, well, one, I think the conversation between Barry and Fuchs is hilarious after he makes his big pitch for the nicknames. That's like maybe the funniest scene, particularly the pause you gave him when he asks, did you like the names I came up with? But I think I like what it says TV fan are you?

it did feel that sequence felt a little, it felt like season one Barry. You know what I mean when I say that? It was like, we're not afraid to be purely comic in this moment. Because, you know, there's moments throughout the season where you go,

oh, we can be funny here, you know, I think. And that one needed to be just really funny, you know. And I like him, and they're not Russian,

but you think they were and hearing the guy off screen. Are they Chechen? Yeah, yeah, they're Chechen, you know. It's like...

Yeah, off-screen the voice, yeah. Yeah, off-screen. Chetchen? Like, the way the guy yells it. The Chechen. Like, I like that they're watching Yellowstone. It really makes me laugh. You know, just because that's exactly why we were told what do they like to watch, the prisoners.

And I go, they love Yellowstone. So, that's fantastic. Yeah. That was, that we were told. My very favorite sequence in the episode, though, is the David Buster scene. And the way that you, I guess there's a lot of choreography that goes into that one, that kind of pitch that goes on between Christabal and Hank going around the table with these kind of rival factions.

That did feel like you making a little bit of a move. Did you have to design that one aggressively? Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, it's that scene from Intouchables or there's always a scene in a lot of these movies where they get the two factions together and the heavy guy walks around the table. and again, to just explain it for people, you know, the first iteration of that was at a warehouse and very, you know, people sitting in chairs listening

and them doing like a straight pitch. And then as it went on, I was like, this is getting boring, what would be more of a fun place? And I remember Duffy Boudreau and I were talking to my office, and it was in one conversation we came up with the idea of like, what if that's at Dave and Busters? And then the other one we came up, we figured out in the same meeting was that initially Kusano just went to, had a lunch with the reporter, told him everything.

And then we were like, that's boring. What would be better? And it's like, what if he did a one-man show? And then we're like, oh, this is really funny if he does a one-man show. That's so Kusinau. And we came up that line of him standing on the stage being like, look, I don't want any more attention. Like that to us was like, oh, that's the character. And that's kind of fun for Henry to do.

So that just, yeah, it was more of that. But that scene, the camera is in the middle of the table. So we're that that table was built by Eric Schoonover. And we're there, the tables in two parts. And there's a circle in the middle. And they just brought the two parts together. So it's just a camera operator, Don, and he's just circling with them and going back and forth. He's operating in the middle of the table.

And then, yeah, we went, we rehearsed it. We brought the table into a stage and had them rehearse it. And then we got it down. And then as they rehearsing, I started cutting dialogue. I started pulling dialogue because it just, okay, this part just feels too long. And then sort of the cutting things and trunk. things. And then when we shot it,

what you sees the fourth take and we did it. It was great on the third take. And then it was funny. I went in and I go, well, we got it. And then Anthony was smiling at me and I go, and I go, what if you? He goes, I should run around. Like, we had the exact same thought

which was that he should high tail it around. And so we did that and we didn't tell Carl Hurst to the DP and he was in the DIT tent. It's just tent. So there's no glare and he was watching it. And when that happened, Carl fell out of the tent laughing. And so I didn't see the rest of the take because we were all trying to keep Carl quiet.

He was just like convulsing on the ground because he didn't know he was going to do that and he fell over laughing. I also had to give a shout out to the actress who played The Waitress because that is, as a day player, that is a terrifying thing. If you're watching these two people lay this thing down and then you got to come in at the end, and nail your line. And she came in every time and was like perfect. And I love Michael Irby the way he says,

we'll take jalapeno poppers for the table. The king must stop. It's just really funny. But Michael, and then the thing they do with their arms at the end, that's like they improvised that in the moment. But that's one of those ones

where they did it. And when they finished it, the whole crew, everybody like applauded. We all were like, oh my God, you guys nailed it, you know.

It's a pretty special sequence. Yeah. Michael Irby, I mean, Anthony rightfully gets a ton of credit, but I just want to say Michael Irby is just the fucking man. He is such a good actor and such a wonderful person and so creative and really gets it in his game for whatever. Like, you throw him at stuff. He's like, yeah, I'm down.

So he's so much fun. And I like how he says, Wicked Tuna. Let's all go over to the Wicked Tuna. Yeah, there's a giant thing we cut out of there, which I'm glad we did, which was there was a whole thing about power cards that we cut the sequence went on longer where they brought out, it was just like once that happens

we're done like, you know, and that's Frankie Gutman our editor was like, I think it's done like right here like I don't know how you get better than that the power card thing I think you need to lose and oh I like the synchronicity of you know, Fuchs put

having a kind of performance in front of the inmates and then Christobal and Hank having a kind of performance in front of these groups and then of course, Jean in front of lawn. Like, that seemed to be a sub-theme of the episode. It's kind of a theme for the whole season of, like, how we perform in life. You know, that's why the lawyer in that episode, from The Sopranos, he says, was this an audition? I don't do auditions.

Like, that's very, that's very conscious, you know? It's like a very consciously trying to put in a theme of performing and how people in life. When you talk about it, you sound like a pretentious dick. I'm talking about myself, but it is like, yeah, it's a thing you do where you kind of go, oh, you do perform in life, you know, and that's a thing is you watch this season. It becomes more evident how it's about a guy. I went to an acting class, but in reality, we act every day. It's just how we, everybody, you put on a different face to deal with yourself, you know.

So that, that was kind of very, yeah, that was on purpose. How did you feel about Henry Winkler actually doing your voice? in his performance. His Barry's voice is very funny. Well, I told him, I was like, yeah, you need to be like, you should make it dumb or as written. I think it's in there as like does super stupid voice because we were writing. F.

He boojaro and I wrote that and we were like, hey, Mr. Mr. Mr. And then he went, he did it even bigger. And it was really funny. Like, Mr. Mr. don't close that class.

Sorry, son. I am like how cool he is. And I really love it how he did the I love you scene. sure he goes can you say it again he goes sure why not i love you i also enjoyed one day he turned on me like an ungrateful tiger oh yeah yeah there was a third part of that that we cut where he was covered in sweat and it was all about him and and uh jim moss like when they caught berry and the we had to cut it for time and it was like we get it it you don't need this but it had two lines i liked one was that he says in his one man's show that

when they caught barry kousina went to the cops and said just give me five minutes alone with him the cops were like we can't do that we can't do that gene he's like just give me five minutes alone with him and he said we can't do that gene and then and then the other one was earlier in the scene earlier in that moment he says uh i told you told Jim Moss, like, you just get him here. Like, don't worry, I'll get him here. I know exactly I would get him here. And then you can grab him. And Jim Moss looked at me and he said, Gene, you're a wild bitch. That sucked having to lose that. That would have been funny. It made us laugh so hard. But it was just when you, when you went back to it a third time,

you just were like, we're gilding the lily here. This is fine. Like, let's move on. You know what I mean? And I love Patrick Fishler and that scene is so funny where he's like, wow, that you, that was more than a bargain for. And then he sums it up in one sentence and Gene's just covered in sweat, you know, that's about the size of it. Yeah, that really was, we were laughing a lot that day. And Henry just nailed it, man. Henry worked on that really hard. And that's one of the few things I've ever shot with more than one camera. We've shot it with three cameras to give it kind of a one-man show feeling with like zooms and stuff.

But it's really funny. Also, like, I got to give Paul Rudd credit because I was telling him about the sequence. And I go, I need good music playing when it comes in. And Paul said, oh, you should get, you should get that choir singing desperado as a children's choir singing desperado. That was Paul Rudd's pitch. And I called him after we cut it in. I was like, dude, it's so funny. I go, oh, is it work?

I go, oh, my God. It is so funny. Thank you so much. Because I was, I think I was, like, imagining, you know, like the to kill a mockingbird music or something or, you know, the kind of music that's playing when you come in to a theater and it's, and the lights go down. And so what if you get that child? The children's choir singing Desperado.

Yeah, that's Paul Rudd. I can give him credit for that. Let's, uh, let's wrap this one by talking about. Sally and the visit to Barry and then the coffee date that she has afterwards. So she, you know, clearly she has left home.

That's not, that wasn't, you know, a refuge for her returning to her parents. Yeah, she tried it. Didn't work. You know, we talked about your thief homage last season with the, with the collage. And I got a little bit of Willie Nelson and James Kahn in this, you know, this prison reunion between Sally and Barry too. You know, the intensity between them

is really also kind of funny with who's muffin. I had to laugh at that. The scene was Sally was the scene, you know what movie I was thinking of when we were doing it when I talked to Sarah was a scene in Paris, Texas. Tasha Kensky, where she's talking behind a thing. And it's not really an interrogation scene,

but it has this kind of intensity to it. And so it's not the same scene, but we were talking, she and I remember talking a bit about that movie just in general because we both like that movie. And then, but I, you know, to me again, it's just, yeah, it was a refuge and it was really interesting not that you try to, if you can, surprise people by not showing her leaving home. and because we did, you know, people in the writer's room like, well, don't you need to see her like leaving home and this and that? And I was like, why? Just she's there. Like see it from Barry's point of view. And from Barry's point of view, it's like, oh, I'm about to see my lawyer.

And he goes in and it's her. It should be a surprise. And then hopefully that answers a lot of questions of like, okay, that didn't work. Now she's home. And, yeah, muffing the dog. and I think she came home initially just to make sure like I'm not like you

ostensibly it's like I don't give a shit like I don't want to talk about your shit I want to just know like am I okay you know and then Barry kind of calls her on it by saying like why aren't you leaving

you know and then it's her having to come to terms of like I don't really have any place to turn but you lied but yeah, you make me feel safe, which has kind of been her issue kind of in general with men and especially with Barry. There's like some level of like her past and everything. And I really love that scene. And I really love what Sarah is doing at a scene.

And I really like also what we did with the sound of having them, you know, the phone on one end when you're with somebody, but then when people are talking off camera, they aren't muffed, they don't, they aren't futzed and everything. And that gave it a really interesting effect. And then yeah, really. And then that's one of those moments too.

We just go, man, it worked out great where I decided to play it that way for one take where when she said, you make me feel safe that I got really excited. And then start banging on the window and saying, wait, wait, wait, Don't leave, don't leave, you know, just to give it some energy or something. And it just, Carl Hersey, after the take was like high-fiving because you went, man, it's great. She gets up and it's, it, we, her head's out of frame, but you just see her hand kind of do this weak wave to him.

And you're in the foreground out of focus. It's so good, man. It tells a story. And, you know, so that's, that's what you hope for, you know, and that's, you try to plan for that. But it, it doesn't necessarily happen the way you think. it will happen. But that's a good camera operator and also a good actor, Sarah Goldberg, kind of knowing where she is in the space and being able to play something a certain way, you know. And then I love the dinner, the diner scene I really like because it's her kind of going to this,

you know, agent, Jesse Hodges, who's amazing, one of my favorite actors, and going to Jesse Hodge's and saying, you know, this person that she was awful to last season and fired, saying, you know, kind of with her hat in her hand saying, well, what can I do? And this was one thing I remember early on that we said when we were first talking about the show, the season four was, you know, Sally could have a podcast and she could have a reality show. The reality is that she could try to bank on her notoriety. And then we were like, but she's got too much, you know, class for that, you know. Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that because in many cases, that is exactly what someone would do.

They would pursue a reality show or a podcast or whatever. This is not the last reference to a podcast. I'll make this season and I want to interrogate you about that as we go along, but we can come back to that. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We have a lot of podcasts. Um, but, but, you know, the you, and the way they, the way they, Jesse says and you would make more money than God is like it's like a it's like a verdict you know it's like she's been sentenced to jail so yeah I thought that was a really interesting choice

yeah yeah it's you would make more money than God and then and I think it's true it's she she easily could do that but she has integrity and she must be an artist and I think that's true about Sally's character you know in a big way is is you know she does she has integrity you know which is a virtue of hers. So I think it is hard for her to, she's trying to do the right thing, which I sympathize with, which is this thing happened.

I'll go in and I'll read for like whatever, girl number two, whatever it is. I just, I just want to work again because she has no place to go. And it's like, you're no longer Sally Reid, you're entitled cunt girl,

but brutal, you know, so it's like you can make money off that, but, you know, I also, like the News Daily thing, the entitled K-word. I don't know why we thought

that was really funny in the writer's room. We kept just saying that entitled K word, a killer. He just kept saying that in the room. But yeah, you know, I have a lot of sympathy for Sally, but Sarah Goldberg is a very good actor in the way that she never makes her feel like a victim.

You know, you could tell Sally's trying to not, just trying to hold on to her integrity. you know, and her dignity as best she can. And even that last scene with her in Kusinau, where she is just kind of at a loss and, like, I don't know why I came back here. And he's like, yeah, it's home, you know.

I know exactly why. It's home, you know. You've created another couple of uplifting episodes of television, Bill. This is a... Yeah, yeah, and it's going to be more fun after this. I'm really glad they're airing them on the first night because... On one night, because I always felt episode one. was like a setting the table episode.

Shit doesn't really get going until episode two and Hank says, we've got to go Kilberry. You're like, nah, we're cooking, you know? Was that HBO's suggestion or was that something you guys wanted to do? That is,

honestly, because of the Emmys. Oh, interesting. After May, I think it's a new role that, you know, I think our episodes were supposed to go into June.

So I think our finale initially was supposed to be like the first. Sunday in June. And the Emmy cut off is May 31st. And because of that, we were like, oh, no. And there was, you know, all this talk. And then it was a simple fix was like, what if we just air one and two in the same night? And I was like, I would love that because I always felt like the show doesn't really start cooking until episode two.

The season doesn't start cooking until two, you know, episode one is like a, we're setting the, we're setting the stage, you know, but, you know, I, you know, I, And it's a short episode. It's like 25 minutes. So I was like always wanting to to have them both on the same night. What it made me happy. Well, we'll be back recapping all of these through the end of the season. You excited?

Yeah. Yeah, man. Get your Lexa Pro, everybody. Maybe we should retitle this entire podcast. Get your Lexa Pro. Bill, thanks. It's always, man. Take your Xanax, everybody.

We'll see you next week. All right. See you. Thanks to Bill Hater. Thanks to our producer, Bobby Wagner. We'll be back next week to discuss episode three of the fourth and final season of Barry. Just two wheels, two pedals, and you. At Bikes Online, we share your passion for everything cycling.

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