The Prestige TV Podcast - Bill Hader on the End of ‘Barry’

Episode Date: June 9, 2023

Sean Fennessey is joined by ‘Barry’ co-creator-star-director Bill Hader to break down the series finale. Host: Sean Fennessey Guest: Bill Hader Producers: Bobby Wagner and Stefan Anderson  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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please check out Fairway Rowland every week. Available on Spotify. I'm Sean Fennessey, and this is the Prestige TV podcast. We are back talking about the series finale of Barry. It's episode eight of the final season, and we're doing so with a co-creator, writer, director, star, so many other things to this show. Bill Hader. Let's go.

We're back. We're talking about season four, episode eight, the series finale of Barry. It's called Wow. It's written and directed by Bill Hater. Bill, this is it. This is the end. When did you know that this was how this show was going to end? Well, there was a couple of things dating back to season two, actually.

When we, there's this, we were writing us, actually, shoot. shooting the scene in the first episode of season two when Kusonoh was laying on a couch and he's despondent about Janus and he is talking to Barry and he's talking about killing himself and he talks about the ripped torn gun and while we were shooting that I kind of turned to Alec and I said what if Kusno kills Barry with his gun and he went oh yeah that's how it all happens folks I mean it really was it yeah that could happen you know and it was just a thing that just kind of like you take a note in your head

and it's in that room where it ends up happening and everything so I was like oh maybe like yeah maybe that happens but I do that about other things you know and in the pilot there's a line that Fuchs says where he says

you don't want people walking down the street and saying, hey, there's the guy from the chicken commercial. Well, that was going to be a big part of the show was that Barry was going to get a job, was going to get a job acting as this, like, kind of Jack in the Box style mascot that became kind of famous for a chicken food chain. And, and, and, and, and, and then that just, you know, it was like, this isn't very good, you know, but it's in there still because it was like, oh, we're setting up something that we're going to do later. So I didn't think much about it. And then by the time we were outlining the fourth season and we realized, okay, this is it.

It kind of came back. I remember saying, well, there is a version of this where Kusinau kills Barry. And it should be with the ripped torn gun. And then it was, you know, but what happened with Hank and and Fuchs and Sally and all that, that was not at all fleshed out. That was very much in the writing as we wrote forward. We kind of started to land on things that felt right. And the movie, the idea of it ending with the movie version of what happened,

that that kind of happened. that was later. I have a question about when you knew you were going to make a decision, but let's maybe start with Fuchs and Hank and Sally and talk through some of that, since that effectively is the first half of this episode. You know, you and I talked about this earlier, but this scene between Sally and John,

after it's become clear that, you know, Fuchs knows what's going on, and he's getting ready to come and have a showdown at no-hole ball, We didn't talk about the name of his company. And then Sally and John have a, I mean, it's really a Sally monologue. It's like a staggering admission to her son about who she is and what's happening and who her father is. And a number of people have remarked, I think, like how extraordinary Sarah Goldberg has been in this season. But that scene in particular is just so powerful.

Where did it come from? And why did you want her character to say that at that time? Well, you needed one of the characters to, who's been in denial or dealing with stuff to just, you know, she thinks they're going to die so she comes clean, you know. And because, you know, it's, it's a bit almost kind of like what Kusanen went through in season three where it's that idea of like you have a gun at your head. suddenly you can be you drop all the bullshit and be a good person or be honest because it's like I'm about to die so it takes her to get to this place and her son dying um where she can just say to him here's who I am and you're a good person you know and she just and she believes that you know

um and i wanted to stage it in a way where she kind of reveals herself so it starts with on her back and then you know she turns and looks at him and then slowly kind of revealing herself to him um and and having the boy in the foreground so you don't know how he's going to react to it you know and so it was all staging that way. It was just we, I don't think we shot it going the other way. I don't remember,

but I think it was all just the shot. It was just the one shot, yeah, from her back and then turning around. Yeah. And then we did, and then I did a terrible thing to Sarah, which was, I realized I wanted to do it all in one. And as I was listening to her, I realized it was too long. But it's not going to be cuts. And I came in. I was like, I'm so sorry, but can you go from this line to this line and she's giving it a thousand percent and really in a very vulnerable naked place and i'm giving her cuts and i feel terrible um so it i wish we could have i wish i could say that was like one or two takes but i think we did seven takes of that and then and that's the last one that you see that was the one where it all worked and then um is that common that you would cut up a

more extended sequence of dialogue well yeah especially Especially if I know we're going to, I want to do it in one. If I don't have a cutting point, then yeah, you, you want to be able to, to, you have to do it there, you know, and make sure. Because I've done that as well where you, you, you shoot it all in one and then you get in the edit and you go, God, this is way too long, you know, I wish we could lose this. I wish we could lose this, but we can't. So we just have to kind of make it work, you know. So it was, that is a perfect example of, you know, me directing everything and doing everything and really dropping the ball. I felt very bad that day, you know, and apologize.

I was like, I am so sorry I should have done this earlier. We should have been rehearsing this or something, you know. Are you being self-effacing or in that moment is Sarah like, why are you such an asshole? No, she didn't say that, but I felt that way. I've been in her position. I've just been in her position before, and it is frustrating. I've been in that position where you're trying to do something and someone comes up, and it could be we're cutting your lines or, hey, in the middle of this,

can you just make sure you're turning your head this way? So we're catching the light and you're like, I can't be thinking about that right now. I'm in, you know what I mean? It's like, I'm in such a vulnerable place. And so, but the really, I'm learning the really good people can do that. and Sarah is the real deal so she was able to go

all right you know and she really made it work in a really interesting way and I don't know what she meant to do this but the new line she did she says them in a way and I could tell she's saying them for the first time

because I put some things and then added a sentence and I can't remember what it's towards the end of it and the way she says it, it's like she made her, she's confused by that,

I gave her lines, so she made that work within the scene. So it's like her piecing it together. And then I love when the kid hugged her, and that kid was so sweet because he didn't like seeing her sad. He was such a sweet kid. He didn't like seeing her sad.

So he hugged her like that, and then her reaction to it. Like I didn't tell her to do that. She just did that, and they hold each other. And, you know, I remember somebody said, I forget when it was, but it was like, we know she killed that guy in self-defense,

you know, so I don't understand why that's, she's saying she's a murderer. I don't know how Sarah feels about that. To me, that's like TV logic, you know, that's like watching TV and going, well, self-defense. I think for someone like Sally, especially, with everything she's been through and the type of person she is,

stabbing a guy in the neck and then beating him death with a baseball bat, even though he was trying to kill her, the whole experience is going to fuck her up, you know, and she's going to have a level of guilt about it from the kind of person she thinks she is. You know?

So that was like one thing that I was, you know, there was one thing we kind of struggle with where it's like, well, does she say I murdered somebody or does she say I had to kill a guy? and it just, I had to kill a guy's like, it's like, it's like a half measure to the thing. And it's like, no, I think she should just say it. You know, that's what she feels guilty about, you know.

So that was one thing I remember in the writing that was tough about that scene was just making sure that that was clear. Because that was something that we talked about where it's like, well, did she, you know. But to me, it's like kind of the same logic. I remember some doing interviews and do, but season two and people going like, why we still talking about Janice Moss? That was season. I was like, well, when someone dies, you don't forget about them. You know what I mean? It's kind of,

it's like TV logic to me, you know? Well, the scene, you know, it seems like Sally feels like it's a final confession, but in fact, especially revisiting the episode, it feels much more like a redemption, like an absolution. I think by her doing that, she's completely,

it's a complete redemption because you see the other characters who aren't able to do that or do too late, you know? And she does it in a very genuine way because she thinks, well, this is it. You know? And it's like, okay, what is this? It's it.

How do you want to go out? How do you really feel? Because you're about to die. How do you really feel? You know? And it's to me is telling, also, what I love about it is, When I watch it, I get emotional, not just because of the great work Sarah is doing in the scene,

but also seeing the way that character has been received by some people, where I will do interviews and people go, God, I hate Sally. I can't stand her or whatever. And I always saw her as someone who was just very honest, but also someone who's been through a lot of trauma, you know? And I think knowing that and seeing what she does in that scene is, I find is really remarkable. you know, she, her character is torn from her son in that moment. And then if we stay in that through line of the story,

it leads to this incredibly violent and, and impressive sequence where we do get a showdown. We do get Ravens gang meeting up with Noho Hank's gang. And they have what seems like is going to be an epic battle sequence of some kind. But in fact, once again, like it kind of underscores that there's just a real banality to this kind of violence and that it is. is often very quick and upsetting and there's a lot of death involved.

And so you get this quick shootout. Many people fall. Many of them die. You do have this extraordinary moment where a bomb is thrown. I don't even understand what kind of grenade that is, but, you know,

the unsophisticated take on that scene is it's cool as shit. And maybe you can help me understand this more sophisticated way of understanding what you're trying to do with it. Well, kind of like what you were saying is like the, you know, the whole thing takes place before the statue of crystal ball,

which is kind of this thing of, it's kind of like, you know, it's just kind of, you know, it's like Hank's denial, you know, it's like the ghost of Christobald's right there. And, and then what I thought was interesting was to have this standoff. Fuchs is brought there because of new information to him, which is Barry has a kid. And we've seen earlier in the season him with Barry as a kid and kind of how he feels about that.

And then on some level, even though he says he's the man without a heart, he like Sally and like, no, hey, I think has a lot of love but also a lot of guilt

and denial about that guilt. You know? And it's And so I've told Stephen my one direction for him and that scene was like, you should say this like it's an AA meeting. Like you're saying, hey, we've got the same disease here. You know, there's a level of compassion to it. It's not a fuck you speech. It's, you know, and that's all you have to really say to Stephen.

And then he just runs with it and it was great, you know. But it was really, really. something to watch Anthony and Stephen do that. I was really knocked out by their performances. Same with Sarah. I mean, all of them, I just was really blown away by what they were doing in this episode.

And, um, you choose to do really tight close-ups on both Anthony and Stephen for those sequences too. Why did you do that? I wanted to just, I think it's hard to hide in that. And I feel like it's really interesting visually because it, it helps with the tone of the show because it is, you know, it's a 27 millimeter lens,

like right in their face, but you're kind of seeing everything, you know, and it's a little distorted, which kind of helps with like the kind of tone of the whole thing. But I can't really tell you, you know, you just like you put them up and you line it up and you're like, I really like this, you know. I really like these close-ups that are just really kind of shocking. You know, it's like the I Love You Scene from season three when you cut to those close-ups with me and Henry, our whole face is picking up the face. I really like that for big emotional scenes in this show.

I don't know if I'll always do that, but for this show, it really, I felt, worked. But, and then, yeah, just to see those, guys kind of go through that. So basically what I was thinking was that, you know, it was very important me to frame Christobal behind Hank. So all he has to do is, it was almost like he has to, he's getting this information with Christball literally standing behind him, you know, the ghost of Chris Ball standing behind him and he's going like, you know, he, you know, does he admit it? Can he do what we just saw Sally do, you know? And then he says no. And, and, and, and,

And, you know, he gets shot. And then the idea with the, with Fuchs was bringing the kid out, was him looking down and being like, there's Barry. And he just says, I'm a man with no heart. But then he sees the kid. And, and it was like, he sees Barry. Maybe right now I can do the right thing. You know, I've lost everything.

I'm a violent piece of shit, as Barry always said. But maybe right now, given this. this, because I have this weird chance, I can do the right thing, you know? And so the idea is that the shootout happens and you are right where it's going to be this badass moment and then you undercut it by showing how kind of stupid it is. And then, yeah, the grenade is just weird, you know, um, and gives it a, again, it's that weird feeling that you, you, you want to kind of take people out of the genre of it for a second. Go, okay, here's genre, genre, genre,

and then nothing, like, look a fucking weird that wasn't. It's awkward. Yeah. Awkward. That's what you want, you know? And then by the camera, finding them, and you see that Fuchs gets up and he has the kid underneath them and he's like, let's go. And then it was this idea of he's leading him through this, the idea, at least, in my head

visually, it was almost like a sea of these. you know, maimed badass. Yeah, the battlefield. Yeah. But they're all, like you're saying, command over, you know,

it's all these badasses that these people kind of revere, you know, and like what Barry, whatever, which I find really silly. He's leading through a sea of all of them. They're all fucked up

and their guts are out. And it's kind of, you're thinking like, what did you guys expect was going to happen? You know what I mean? You're all, you know,

and what he's doing is, instead of what he did with Barry, which was expose him to this and exploit him to this world, he's hiding the boy, he's hiding his eyes and don't look down, don't look down, don't look at this. He's shielding him from it. You know what I mean? And that's what he should have done with Barry. He should have been there for him, you know? So it was him leading him through the world and then violent bullshit and then giving him back to his dad and kind of saying, you know, you have a shot with this one. You know what I mean? But he's saying it for himself, you know?

Like he looks at Barry at the end, but it's more of like, I think Fuchs is, he loves Barry, but he does that with his son for himself, you know, so he can feel like, yeah, maybe I am a guy with a heart. You know what I mean? I say that about myself, but, you know, so it's complicated, but it feels very human, you know. And I respond to that. And I really love that moment. I just, I really love that, you know, Fuchs saves his son, you know. And then he says, you know, don't worry and get back to your dad.

Your mom's okay. You know. And so that was the idea of like, you know, you plan a shot and the best shots tell a story. And so we had a bunch of ideas and none of them told us. story. They were just kind of like cool shots. It was like, this needs to tell a story and this is the story it should tell, you know?

One thing I was thinking about as I was watching this final episode is that almost every character on the series who has courted violence in some way has died. Yeah. And Fuchs is really the only person I could think of who didn't

suffer some sort of ultimate fate despite being in the thick of all this. And I guess the question is of like, do you see that moment as a redemption for him, as some sort of like transition away from a previous life? Who knows? I mean, he goes back into darkness. He kind of goes back into hell or wherever. But, you know, him shooting and killing Hank's the first time we've ever seen him kill anybody on camera.

You know, he tried to kill Kusanen at the end of season two and he couldn't do it. And then he shoots Hank, but it's when Hank pulls Barry's Kibak. So it is like effectively saving Barry's kid, you know, but he still kills a guy, you know. So it is a, you know, it's, again, it's this weird complex issue for him, you know. But it's like, and it kind of goes back to a lot of these things like, is violence justified? I don't know, you know, or what does that do to your heart? What does that do to your mind, you know? but I think for him as somebody who has commanded,

his superpower is commanding people to do violence. You know, he can manipulate his flock, the raven and his flock or whatever the fuck it is, to do violence for him. And then he's now perpetrated himself. But I don't know. I don't know if he goes back into darkness and he's going to figure that out or not.

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low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99-79 or visit Zepbounds.com. I guess I've been thinking about whether or not you have a kind of a prevailing philosophy around some of the those bigger ideas on the show because obviously Barry sort of opens this episode in by marching into this whatever department store Kmart style store buying weapons from the same person that he bought weapons from previously and was that episode six. And you know he buys those weapons. He straps them to his back. He marches through the store. No one cares. No one notices.

It seems incredibly normal to just buy a couple of automatic rifles and exit the store. Now, there's probably a number of ways you could read that in general. And I know that you've been asked about this over the years on the show, so I think it's interesting.

But what you just described about the showdown with Fuchs and Hank seems ultimately like a pacifist reading on the stupidity of violence. Obviously, what we see Barry doing in this sequence feels in line, with that.

You think it's more beneficial to use violent storytelling to show a point about how absurd and ridiculous our violent world is than to not. Because the show has obviously been quite violent over the years because of the nature of the characters. Yeah.

Well, I definitely feel like, look, I love, I should say, there's a part with this story and with this guy and the way you're, what he's going through that felt always like the violence shouldn't be taken in a glib way and it should be you know i feel like we've always shown the violence to be pretty real even when you're doing

stuff like ronnie lily which is really insane um there is something to it where the violence hurts you know it's unadorned and and with music or things like that um you know but i think I think with, I think for this, yeah, it is important to show that for this specific story. That said, like, I love action movies, you know. So I'm not someone who's like, you know, anti-violent video games or violent movies or, you know, I still think Matt Max Fury Road's like one of the best movies of the 21st century. I've seen it so many times. I just think it's amazing.

But for this story and maybe, I don't know, I don't know, for me personally, I don't know, it just felt right, you know, it wouldn't be good. I feel like to have it be silly, you know, and to be the violence played for any sort of humor, you know. And I will say too that I feel very lucky that I was able to do it that way. You know, I feel insanely lucky that I was allowed to do that because it is very easy for people to be like, well, this is just a bummer. But, you know, I know someone, a journalist asked if I, someone said something like, why, you know, I guess you're, you know, your show's very cynical about our world or whatever. And I'm like, there's a mass shooting every week.

I'm just being honest. And yeah, we were like, oh, there's eight years in the future. You know, I was saying earlier, we did, you know, we did have the idea of, oh, well, Barry's, how would he get a gun or anything? And it's like, oh, you were just going, you just go buy one. And we're like, oh, eight years in the future, you'd go in and buy, you could load up like that and walk right through. and no one would look at you.

In the state of California, too. I found that to be arguably the most chilling part of it. Even in California, you can do that. Yeah. But just to walk out like that and people just kind of go, oh, there's a guy who's a bunch of guns on it. You know what I mean? And I'm from Oklahoma, so I have people my family who hunt and everything

and are very responsible gun owners. So this isn't me, you know, but it's hard now to be affected by, you know, some of these shooting. Yeah, I feel like you have always had a steady hand with portraying satire of the culture of violence, but not

satirizing the actual violence, you know, that there is an intention and like you said that it hurts. It's unadorned. You know, Barry's character drives to the site, expecting to have a big showdown with a gunstrap to his back and arrives to find Fuchs for turning his son to him. And

very quickly, he's reunited with family and his rivals are dead and he hasn't resolved a gene issue but he thinks that he has been redeemed in bed. Yeah. That was my again, initially we had it where it was like he showed up and it was a big shootout and then it was like, I wouldn't be more interesting. What if he showed up late? He started playing in his car and then you start laughing and you're like, oh yeah, that's

what it should be. He should show up late, praying his car. He comes out. It's all been done. and he takes that as a sign that he's been redeemed, which I just saw that's really funny. He didn't do shit. And, yeah, so I love that scene with him and Sally in bed

where she's like, you need to take responsibility, where she's literally repeating what he said to John in episode five. Right. You need to take responsibility for what you did. And he's like, you know, I've been redeemed. and then when she goes at him harder, he says, you're tired. Where, okay, where are they sleeping?

They are in a hotel. A hotel, okay. I was a little confused as to where I was at that point. Yeah, they're in a hotel. Hopefully that when you see him leave and stuff, so you could. Okay, you see it there. I mean, he awakens to find that his family has left him,

that Sally and John have gone somewhere. We don't actually know where, specifically. And Barry leaves to go to Gene's house for his ultimate destiny. Yeah, he said we went to jeans, you know,

and we saw Kusano and he's going to be, he's going to go down for your murders, so you got to do the right thing, you know. I really like that you brought the Rip Torn's Chekhov's gun back into the story. I also thought just relative to the

conversation we were just having about violence that Barry's line of dialogue as he is shot by Kusano is a wow. Yeah. There's a bunch of them actually. We did a, I did a whole, I did like 20 of them. There's a whole series of where there's like Gadzukes. Yeah. Do you or me? Yeah. I think one I was like, what?

You know, or like, I think one, I sit down, I go, oh. It was a little too meta. Yeah, I think that Oh, wow, is the one that made Allie Greer The editor laughed the hardest, so we put that one in. Yeah, it's almost as if Barry never conceived that he could ever be killed. Yeah, I think also he just kind of reacts

to whatever's in front of him. So it's just kind of like, oh, wow, like, why does Gene have a gun? Some people took all this big meeting into it And I was like, you know, I think just literally be like, why, well, what are you holding a gun for? You just shot me. What's going on? But, and I like that moment before it, you know, that wasn't in it initially.

Initially, he came in. He's asking Tom, what do I do? And he kind of, and then he shot. And then I think I was sitting, we were shooting at the house in Malibu where, uh, the Ravens gang is. And me and Aida Rogers were like, hey, we're shooting that scene next week. And she's like, that's a big scene and everything.

And then I, we were talking about it. And then it just, in talking to her, I said, what if he realizes what he did was wrong? And, and says, okay, I'm going to call the cops. And then Kusno shoots him before he can do it. And she started laughing. And I ran down to craft service and Duffy Boudreau was down there. And I pitched it to him.

And he was like, yeah, that's good. Yeah, that's funny. And I was really excited by that. I do like the Barry in his last moments kind of realizes what he should have done in the pilot. I always felt like the first shot of the whole show is him walking in and there's a dead body in the bed. And the next scene could have been him just going on a phone and calling somebody and go, look. I just killed so long for this guy, few because I'm going to turn myself in, and I've done the wrong thing. And then in prison or whatever, that's when he learns acting class.

That's when he goes to an acting class, you know, but he doesn't want to take responsibility for anything. You know what I mean? So it was very funny to watch him, to me, and even in playing it, it's fun to watch a kind of almost, It's like a new feeling from Barry that we've never seen before of actual responsibility where it's like it's, you know, there's just a different energy in those last couple of lines, which is really interesting, you know. And then I think it was important for him to realize like, oh, wow, the way for redemption is, you know, what he says in the car, I'm going to die tonight.

That's how I'm going to be redeemed. No, the actual, in that moment when he says, I see, that's the important line. is, and it's a very biblical, well, you know, the piece of dialogue is going, oh, by turning myself in, that's how I will be redeemed, you know. And then the idea of, if Kusano had just waited a minute, he'd be a hero and Barry be a villain, you know, but he didn't hear it and shot him, and that's the thin line between hero and now he's, you know. And so, So it just, I thought it lined up in a nice way and it really made me laugh. I don't think I really fully realized the magnitude of Gene's arc too until I revisited it and all the decisions that he made that led him to this fate.

You know, he talked about the $250,000. But even the decision to shoot Barry, as you say, it eliminates the one person who could vindicate him from what he may or may not have been responsible to. and you know, Gene is in a weird way. You know, Hank obviously has this tragic fall and his death is very emotional. And Fuchs has this slip into darkness and we don't know what his fate is. And Barry, of course, is killed.

But Barry, as you pointed out to me a few times in these conversations, it's kind of an idiot. Yeah. And certainly deserves a cruel fate because of the havoc that he's wrought. But Gene gets a really brutal deal for just like a narcissist, you know, like a selfish guy.

Sure. somebody. He murdered somebody. And they think he killed. And then by him killing Barry, it really kind of, it fucks any sort of case against him because he killed Barry and Janice Moss both die the same way. So it doesn't, it does not bode well for him,

you know, like saying that he had nothing to do with Janice's murder if he also killed Barry. He is fated to become a recent history, true crime monster. I mean, and you, of course, show us that in the way that this series concludes. Yeah. What does Henry think about the way that you closed the loop on Gene's scene?

I just had breakfast with Henry today. He loved it. What a ride, what a journey. He loved it. Let's talk about the movie of Barry. Now, obviously, we cut from Barry's death to a moment of reflection for Gene where he looks back on what he's done. And then we hard cut to some future time

where Sally is being celebrated for the production of Our Town that she's put on at a school where it snows. So I'm going to assume maybe somewhere in the Midwest. And, you know, she has this encounter with a teacher where he tries to come on to her and she's still kind of, you know, sort of like ruminating inside being celebrated

and thinking about it and also trying to protect herself. And then John appears and John. and John tells her that he wants to spend the night at his friend's house so that he could watch this illicit videotape, which of course is the true story of what really happened to his dad, Barry Berkman. And I love this ending for a million reasons. One of the reasons I love it is, as I told you,

Jim Cummings is somebody who I really enjoy, and so seeing him cast as... Yeah, Thunder Road's an amazing movie. Such a great movie, and he's so funny. And he's so perfect for the shiny, polished version of you, Yeah, it's Sherry Thomas, our casting director. She was the one that suggested him. And I thought that was a great job.

That was a great idea. Did you always want to show Sally these other years on before getting to this? No, that kind of came later. And, you know, initially when the guy hit on her, we had her saying, no, thank you or whatever. And it was, I remember going up to Sarah after she did one take of it, and we both had the same idea, which was her saying, I go, shouldn't you? She goes, I should just say no. No, yeah, I was going to say that. Yeah, just say no.

And that's her going to be like, yeah, I don't need a guy in my life because I'm going to, your validation is going to meet everything. I'm going to need you to, you know, like get out of here, you know. Right. Protecting herself. So I think she's, she's the person that's. found the most sense of acceptance of here's my faults and I'm just managing them, you know? And also, I think a big thing that's important, she doesn't say, I love you to her son. Her son says, I love you and she doesn't say it back, you know.

That was going to be my next question. Why? I don't think she can say it. I think that's her real, I think that's just her truth. You know, I think she is someone who loves herself, you know. And the son takes care of her. She doesn't take care of the son. He's telling her, can I go spend a night in her friends house?

It's not asking permission. He's telling her to make sure, are you going to be okay? You know, that's what he says. You're going to be all right? And she's like, yeah, yeah, I'll be fine. You know? So that tells you about their relationship a bit, you know.

And she seeks validation from him about whether the show was good. He needs validation from him and she, you know, needs her flowers, you know. And the validation from him, seen that that so now he's kind of taken the role of that thing for her and i but i think she's kind of aware of it you know what i mean and it's one she can always count on too she's never going to not get that from him yes so that's what and the fact you know we didn't give her a daughter

give her a son for a reason you know and um and that i think helps those you know that moment but i think sarah and i both were like i don't think you'd say I love you back, you know, and it's like, no. You know, it's like she's, you know, I don't think, I don't think she can, she has that in her, you know, I think. That's, that's being honest with her character, though, you know, that's what I mean. It's like sometimes you could do a thing that'll, you know, like, you know, oh, that'll be nice.

You know, I'll tell you something real quick. And then we can get back, you can put this where you want, like Hank's death scene. Okay. initially in Hank's death scene, we did a thing where, so I thought, I made a big mistake. So I thought that Sally and Hank meeting

was going to be this huge thing that people were going to love. Oh my God, these two characters are finally meeting. And I said, this meeting has to change them, change their course somehow. It has to be a big deal and everything.

And the thing that was going to do it was they both realized that they kind of had this same disease, which is we loved and got fucked over by Barry disease. And that scene between them at the top of eight was initially much longer. And then what happened was when he shot and we go back to Hank, I had him reaching up to touch Cristobal statue. And then you saw Sally's hand come into frame and take his hand and put it in Christobal's hand instead of him grabbing it.

It was like she did it and he looks up at her and she kind of looks at him with this knowing look of like whatever and and it was like, oh, they are able to help each other because they have the same disease or something, which is Barry, you know, and it doesn't make sense. So I don't know why she would know about him and Christobal. he kidnapped her. He threatened her son. I don't know why she would help him. And I know this because Sarah said it while we were shooting.

I don't know why we're doing this. And I would go, I got no other ideas. I have no idea. I don't know. Let's just shoot it, you know? And I was like, I think it works. I think it's going to be great. And then she goes, I just don't think this works.

And we shot it. And she made all very valid points. And then we shot it. And then I got in the edit. And Frankie, the editor said, yeah, I'm just trying to get around Sally putting his hand in the thing. I'm just trying to cut that out because it's really sentimental and dumb. And it just makes zero sense. And I was like, oh, God, okay.

And so then I go, okay, we got to, you know, Hank wants to live like a crime lord. Then he's going to have to die like a crime ward. You know, he should have like a, we're going to reshoot his death scene. and then I called Anthony and said, hey, we're going to reshoot your death scene. And he went, oh, thank God. I think everybody was like, this doesn't work. But I hope you created an environment where someone could go,

this doesn't work, you know what I mean? But the reason it doesn't work and why I'm bringing it up is a couple reasons. But the biggest one, one was I had enough people, journalists have been like, wow, the show is really bleak. The show isn't funny anymore. It's really bleak. And so I think I got insecure about that and wanted to put in a really non, like these two characters having a real moment together that wasn't bleak. So that's the, that's what's bad about reading about yourself and reading about the show is that I can be, you can be influenced by it without even really knowing it.

I figure this out in retrospect. And then the other thing is fan service, you know, it's like, oh my God, the fans will love this. So those are the motivations for writing that scene, not character, you know, not where the people are at, you know. And so when you get to that moment with Sally and you go, would she say, I love your son? It's like, you got to go by that, you know, by that time I knew I had made a mistake. So I was like, no, she's not going to say I don't love you. You know, she's not going to say, I love you back. And that gives you a little clue into it, that it's not her son.

sitting in the shotgun, it's bouquet of flowers. You know, that's what she wants. All she wants is her flowers and some appreciation for her acting ability and that she's good, you know. It's an amazing lesson in writing, I feel like. I always ask filmmakers, do you read your own reviews and your own press?

And I'm always so interested in, I think half of them lie to me and half of them tell the truth. And those who tell the truth are pretty wounded most of the time because it's really challenging. It's not, it is challenging. It is kind of a weird magnet that draws you to, to it. And then when you read it, even nice ones, you can kind of be thrown by

because you go, well, that's not really what I was thinking. And that's, you know. I've really appreciated that about the conversations we have where I throw some theory at you. And you're like, no, that's not. That isn't what I was thinking. I'm like, all right, cool. Good, good to know.

But I do think, though, when you read some of the stuff that's helpful. Some of it's nice, but you can't go there to get like a dopamine hit, you know, because like anything on the internet, you will find something that will upset you. And some of the criticisms of this season have kind of come back to me through other people and stuff who worked on the show. And some of it we've talked about here. And it's interesting because some of the criticisms are stuff that we had talked about, you know, would, moss let Barry leaves, the garage, you know, things like that. And, and yeah, I mean, again, it's like that, that's a very specific show.

So I understand the thing, you know, but it is a thing once you, you're doing it, you know, you just have your reasons for doing it, you know. My favorite thing I ever saw a filmmaker say about that was when Martin Spursaise is interviewed by Richard Schickle. and Richard Shickles said, I saw Shutter Island, and I have a lot of thoughts about it, and not all of them are very good.

And Scorsesey said, I can't hear it. Like, I don't want to hear it. But that was great. You could have done that. You could have done that over and ever again. I was really surprised.

I go, oh, you can say that? Yeah, all you got to do is make Raging Bowl and taxi driver and Goodfellus. Yeah, no, yeah, that's true. That's true. But, you know, but I think anybody, could say that.

Yeah, I can say, like, I don't want to hear it. You know? I think it's like, I think he's saying it not like from an ego place. He's saying, like, I busted my ass working on this thing. I can't. It's a presumptuous thing for a critic who is interviewing a filmmaker to do as well. I think that indicates an unusual relationship or sense of self that perhaps Richard Shookl had. I'm trying to not do that with you.

You've never done that. No, I'm just trying to not do it. I've definitely, I've definitely had people say that stuff. But it is hard. It is interesting because I'm a fan too. And I read up on stuff and I have opinions and I get the same way about things. And it is interesting once you make stuff. I am much more kind of like, okay, well, is that a criticism ballot?

Or am I just saying, God, I wish it was this instead of what it was? Or are you taking it on its own, you know, like standards of like what, you know, what it's wanting to be? Well, telling that story, which I thought was so interesting about whether or not, you perceive the show to be bleak is something that it makes me wonder. Do you think that the show is bleak ultimately? No, I just always felt like the show was trying to be honest

about where the characters were at, you know? But are their lives bleak or the way that they live? Well, yeah, I mean, they're dealing with murder and, you know, substance abuse and things like that. So yeah, you know, and what they're going through,

if you're treating it with some sort of empathy and respect is scary, you know. So that's kind of how I saw it, you know. But, you know, it was interesting. Episode five, I know, like friends and stuff, oh, my God, what a bleak episode. That was a really rough watch.

And I understand that. But I, again, I thought like, oh, maybe because, you know, wrote it and playing Barry that it's like, oh, this guy is just trying to have the life that he wants, you know? And by doing that, he's doing a lot of damage.

But to me, I found it kind of humorous because it was like, this is his only way of having the life that he wants. Yeah, I mean, you used the phrase fan service earlier,

and I felt like actually at most turns this season, you did the exact opposite of that. I mean, you know, Hank killed Cristobal and Barry died, and Gene was doomed to a terrible.

fade and you know like it really was not that at all yeah it is interesting the minute you i've tried anytime i've done anything on this show where i felt like it's fan service the show spits it right back out it just was that way and i've done it a couple times where you your motivation is you get excited by an idea that is um is something like that you know but when you got to the to the to the to Sally not, you know, saying that was really important, you know, to kind of give you a clue into their lives and that, you know, she, she's working on it. She doesn't want to be with me anymore. She has this new relationship. Basically, her only relationship is with her son and she's being able to do the things that she loves. She's also kind of accepting who she is, you know. I think, you know, and then by the time you get, you know, to the end scene where they're watching the movie, the other line that I like is, you know, John doesn't drink. That was a big one, you know,

the guy's like, do you want to drink? And he says, no. So you kind of see like, okay, he's like an upstanding kid. He's doing, you know, he's not following in that. Those,

he's seen his mother. I always took that as, he's seen his mother drunk a lot. He doesn't want to. Mm-hmm. And then, and he also has also been poisoned in a way by alcohol, like literally, you know?

And some, I mean, some people, like kids, you know, they drink like that. they get a taste for it and they want alcohol, you know, like alcohol, but he shuns it, you know. And, but then, you know, he respects his mother enough to be like, I don't know if I should watch this.

Because, you know, I think when he says that, I don't know if I should be watching this. It's him saying, like, my mom will be really upset, even though. And so it's, to me, that's saying out of the gate, like, your mother, like, like, Sally's like, that movie is bullshit. Do not watch it. You know? And he's been told that his whole life that is a pack of lies. Please don't watch it.

So this guy, this, you know, shitty friend telling him like, okay, you know, don't listen to your mom. You deserve to see this. That felt like the right, you know, feeling, you know, that you kind of can feel with Sally's, has, you know, thinks about that movie, you know, and that, you know, and that he kind of almost renegs on it because he cares about her, you know, about his mom. He doesn't want to be doing shit behind her back. You know, my stepmom is a huge fan of your show, and she asked me to ask you when we got down to the end, which studio produced this Barry film?

I don't know. It's so far into the future. I don't know which studios are around. Some new conglomeration of media entities have come together. Yeah, Netflix and Amazon came together. No, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know which one it is. But I definitely, we had different versions of the movie.

One version was kind of much more, well, we had a version that had celebrity cameos in it. I think we actually reached out to George Clooney and then decided not to do that to play Cousanow. And then we were going to age him up and stuff. And then it was like, okay. And then it was Carl Hersey who actually went, I don't think you should do that. That's so played out. And I was like, yeah, you're right.

And it kind of gets in the way of the whole thing. He's like, yeah, this is an Austin Powers, man. Come on. You know, it's really like, ah, don't do that. And the actor who plays Kousinot, too, is fantastic. Yeah, he was amazing. So funny. And then, uh, and so we had a version of it that was much more like an Oscar movie.

Mm-hmm. It was like very done very straight and not as kind of arch. And it served its purpose, but it just was not nearly as fun. And I was like, yeah, I don't know, the thing you're, you instinctively are like laughing. The hardest at is, is Fusinault being played by a tall British guy that looks like he should be on the death star, you know? but yeah, going to regret this. Eddie Beckman. You know, like, I just thought all that sounds really funny.

And how Jim Cummings would play it, where he was constantly, like, solving the mystery. Like, I would say, do a Hardy Boys take, and he would, you know, like, he's constantly, like, on the trail of Gene Cousineau. And then Louisa, who plays Sally, was amazing. And she's a phenomenal actor. She's a really great stage actor.

She was in the flick. Annie Baker and a lot. She's doing great. And then her boyfriend is Anthony Carrigan. And that's how I met her was through Anthony. And I thought she was so good. And so when we were writing this, was like, oh, would she be interested in playing this?

Because we got very lucky that she said yes. She's like a real, like a really amazing stage actor. The cutaway to her watching Barry act for the first time is so funny. Yeah. It was fun to get to do that. different style and you know some of the people on the crew

were like oh we work on things that you know because we're so used to just working one camera and we shot that with like multiple cameras handheld um you know the violence and it was you know the Laura and the effects I was like just you know I would go over

the top with it and everything it's you know it's whip pan and moving so quickly yeah yeah and just making it like an action movie just it like an action, an action film and then... I got you. I got you.

Yeah. Oh yeah. He showed up. He showed up on time and killed him. And I also like when he, he's such a good guy. He even apologizes to the guard. He's about the beat up. He's like, sorry, brother, just know you're doing your job. Like, all that shit. This is really funny.

But I don't know. I, I, uh, I, I, I, I really, I, there was, There was one thing, you know the other thing that's interesting is we cut out a line. I learned this on the show. This was a big learning experience for me and it is helpful, is that I would write lines and put things in there.

Like during the scene where the boy is watching the movie, we had a line in it where the friend said, do you remember this happening to you? and the boy goes, yeah, barely kind of, you know, like he kind of remembered it. And Allie Greer, we were cutting it, and Allie just, every time that line would come up, she would go, hmm, like she'd make a little noise. And I was like, yeah, that feels like it kind of ruins the flow of stuff. And you go, yeah, that's us doing that.

So the audience knows we thought about it. And so it doesn't move the story forward in an interesting way. And it doesn't give you interesting information. It's more of like dialogue that makes you aware that it's more like you're saying, I'm not dumb. You know, like we know that John was there and John's watching this movie and that Fuchs saved him and he was there and everything like that. And he knows his dad didn't save him.

I when I was talking to Jaden who plays John he's amazing he's a phenomenal actor he you know he was like I was there and everything I go yeah you're there and I think but that doesn't change the fact that they made a movie about your dad and it's in that your dad's you know buried in Arlington Cemetery and that you know it is that kind of you know the fact and the legend type of thing. You know what I mean? Where it's like I can know something is kind of true, but that's pretty awesome that my dad,

that they made this movie about my dad, you know? Yeah, it reminds me of, I mean, you just, yeah, I mean, you, you, you cited, like, the Liberty Valence aspect of the ending, and even, like, at the end of the player where we see the movie that is being pitched throughout the entire movie. And the idea that, like,

the falsity of storytelling, versus this really kind of brutal world that we've just spent years inside of and you've spent years crafting is pretty powerful. Yeah, that was the idea is that it's, in the pilot, the idea came from

going back to the pilot and Gene Kousno is saying to Barry, Barry, what I'm interested in is the truth. You know, acting and there is truth, you know. And then it's like, you know, then, but that's not really, you know, movies aren't necessarily always the truth, you know. Almost never.

Never, it's really complicated, you know. Any movie, you know, my favorite movies, you know, it can't be the truth, you know. And there's so many other things that go into it, would you see with the executive and everybody else that's like, she says it's a cat and mouse thriller, and, you know, that's that because that's what people would want to see. That's true.

So I think if you're making the two-hour version, or now, I guess, it would be a three-hour-plus movie because movies are so long now. I hope you're keeping that in mind as you think about movies. Yeah. Think about economy. It's too long right now, man. When we first started talking about the show at the beginning of season three, I remember you saying a handful of times

that you spend a lot of time watching true crime documentaries and that's something you have like a connection with your family about and something that you've been interested in and I thought it was kind of notable that you ended this story with like kind of a similar docudrama representation of a story that like kind of mingles the truth a little bit

the way that it kind of always feels like the truth is being mangled as these stories are being retold they don't actually understand what was inside of these people or why these things transpired I don't know if that was something that you intended upon when you set out on this. That's interesting. No, and actually my true crime obsession,

I think has been helpful for Barry in making the show Barry and there's some other ideas, but I do think I need to chill out on it because I do think it makes me anxious. You know, and I do have, has been highly, highly documented,

if you just type my name, I think the next thing it says is anxiety. People just want to feel closer to you. If they have anxiety, they want to understand you, Bill. Yeah, they want to understand it, yeah. But it does exacerbate my anxiety a lot because then you just get to the point where you're like, well, I'm going to walk down the street

and get, you know, me. But so it has been good lately just even in the last, I would say, two months, like not really engaging with that stuff. just because and watching, you know, reading and watching movies and, you know, kind of getting back in that world has been good for my mental health. But to me, the movie was more kind of more just about, it's my, I think it kind of came from it, made the most sense for the story, like a movie would be made about them. and this would be the most, like, this would be the one that would make us all laugh. But it also kind of like when I watch it, it is my own kind of, as someone who's obsessed

with movies, my own conflicting feeling about it because you love something so much and you grew up in a very naive way thinking the world was like the movies and, and stories. And, you know, growing up in Tulsa, Oklahoma and, you know, you know, I stopped playing sports. when I was, you know, in ninth grade. And so there's not a lot of, you know, to do. You know, at least when I was there now, it's like, well, there's tons of stuff to do. But when I was there, it wasn't a lot to do. So, yeah, I just watched a lot of movies and really fall into that world, become obsessed with it.

And it is very nourishing and nice. But it is a thing when you're so obsessed about a thing in the world doesn't work out. the way you want, you do feel, and I felt this way in my 20s where you would go through a breakup and go, why wasn't, I've never seen it portrayed like this in a movie. Someone close to you passes away from a disease and you go, I've never seen this scene in a movie.

This is, you know what I mean? Why didn't someone tell me this was going to happen? You know what I mean? Or, you know, you'd find out later, you watch a film that's a true story and then you would kind of see what actually would happen. And you go, oh, well, that person wasn't necessarily what they said. But now I understand why you do it that way because you need to tell a story that people are going to want to come to see. And so I understand it all from each side.

But I could see that in that ending too. But it's a movie nerds kind of, you know, feeling about it. Yeah, acceptance of our distorted reality. Let me just say I just deeply relate to everything you just said. That's all. I can kind of leave it at that. Yeah, yeah, I, yeah, just, you just, you want to, you know, it's, it's, it is very true, you know, it is a distorted reality.

And I think people, not just with movies, but you can get that now with, you know, the internet and a lot of other things. There's a lot of distorted, distorted reality, like you say, you know. But it, when it, I mean, it. I mean, you talk about a cynical thing or, you know, being real, you know, being real and the kind of in between those two things is the idea of, well, we got down to like the movie of Barry, it needs to look like a movie that was made that would make money. So what would that look like?

You know, like, let's just go just straight from that, you know? What's a movie that, you know, it's a movie like when you take a long flight and you're lucky enough to be where they have the movie things up that and it's just like, I don't know what this is. And you click on and you're like, oh, wow, I can turn off my brain and just watch this thing. You know, I watch those things, you know? So that was kind of the criteria for the making a mass collector, you know. It was incredibly effective.

I thought it was a brilliant way to end the series. You've been so generous and humble throughout this process, honestly. Like, I think even just talking about the things that you wrote, that you scrapped, that you reimagined or the way that your editors or your DP or all the people who would say, Bill, this is wrong. Let's not do it this way. So I'm really grateful to you for doing it that way. Is there anything else that you haven't said about this series that you want to say before we wrap up here?

No, man, I've talked so much. I'm sure. It's like, oh, God, I want to hear that. Waits. No, I mean, I just, you know, as somebody, I will just say it's somebody who grew up, you know, loving, you know, like loving movies, watching, you know, the commentaries, learning that there is, you know, no one, I've read all the books, you know, listen to everything about, about making stuff. And the, and the, and the, the difference between

that and actually doing it is, is huge, you know. and the thing I wish I had was had stuck with still making things and and learning from making things. And now you can do it in a way that I would have killed that had when I was in my late teens, early 20s. And so if you're, if you're, you know, I would listen to a thing like this because I would want to learn about. something and and then and so that's the biggest thing I learned was I feel like forever I was like a fan and then and even at SNL I was still like a fan you know and then actually from the first day the pilot sitting down and like okay I'm I'm directing this and I was so lucky to have an actual professional

crew and so lucky to have this experience And then I helped one of my kids with their project that they were doing on their phone and cutting an eye movie. And there is a massive difference, obviously, but actually in the thing, it's not a lot of difference. You're still making choices. I'm still going, are we on the right side of the line here? Hold on. It's like lighting.

What does a shot mean? Is a shot a tell a story? All that stuff you can do with your phone. you know, and you can do with a good camera and you can really learn. So I will just say that has been the biggest experience for me and the thing I'm just so grateful for it to have a chance to get to do that and to be able to learn over the four seasons how to make something and hopefully get a chance to just keep doing it.

I can't wait to see what you do next. As you know, I'm just a massive fan of what you accomplished with the show and as I said, I'm really grateful to you for walking us through it because I've learned a lot. And I've learned as much, I think, about some of the technical choices you've made as the intentionality and the creativity that you're trying to bring to the story. So thank you so much, Bill. Thank you for doing this. This is awesome. It's my pleasure.

Thank you to Bill Hater for all of his contributions to this podcast. Thank you to Stefan Anderson and Bobby Wagner, our producers on this episode and throughout the series. Thank you for listening to the Prestige TV podcast. We'll be back talking about some other show at some other time, but I don't know what that is. right now and we'll see you then. Go Mets. That's just mean.