The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Breaking Bad’ Hall of Fame: “Ozymandias”

Episode Date: December 13, 2024

Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney leave their family behind to revisit the ‘Breaking Bad’ episode “Ozymandias.” They discuss why it’s such an important piece of TV history, the Rian Johnson of it all, and their relationship with the AMC drama (1:49). Along the way, they talk about how the show would’ve been remembered had this episode been its series finale and its lasting legacy on how dramatic television is structured (12:11). Later, they give out a handful of awards, including best line, most iconic shot, favorite overlooked detail, best fit, and much more (28:22). Email us! [e-mail] Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Producer: Kai Grady Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What is going on with Kate Middleton? Which cult is popping off right now? What the hell is a trad wife? And why are we so obsessed with them? I'm Jody Walker. And I'm Chelsea Stark Jones. And we're obsessed. Obsessed with all the pop culture happenings,

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I'm Jonah Robinson. I'm Rob Mahoney. Hi, Rob. Hi. We're in studio. This is wild. Welcome to the brand new Ringer TV feed. We're here to bring you our usual prestige content.

always be in this flashy studio when we do it. Sometimes we will be at home speaking to our cameras. Your home setup doesn't look like this? The fake plants aren't nearly as nice in my home as they are here in the studio. These Choshkis seem like you. The football behind you very much I would think is on your shelf too. Very brand, very unbrand for me. But yeah, so we will be covering our usual content on this feed.

We're doing a little special Hall of Fame episode, though, to kick it off. Yeah. We are doing, we are inducting into the process. Presti's TV Hall of Fame, which is a very eclectic group of episodes thus far, because it's just sort of what we decide to celebrate at the time. And this one goes out to Justin Sales, who has been shepherding this feed for several months now. And Justin was like, let's do Breaking Bad. Let's do Osamandias.

Specifically, and understandably. If you're going to do Breaking Bad, this is the natural entry point. That's not how it happened. Justin was like, we're going to do Breaking Bad. I knew what he meant by that. You had some questions. You were like, which... Well, look, I have my personal tastes.

And I think for me, what is a personal litmus test for a long time, personally, if I talked about the episode, The Fly with somebody, season three episode, The Fly of Breaking Bad, and they didn't like it. And they said, I didn't see the point. Nothing happened. It was just very clear to me that me and that person are not watching TV in the same way. Okay. There's no judgment, but also I'm going to hold it against them for the rest of their life.

So now the people know if they meet you on the street in order to do that to impress you, they should be like, you know what's a great episode of television? You know what's a real banger? The other Ryan Johnson joint. You know, it's a textbook definition of a bottle episode. It's fly. We may not be coming back to that episode as we sort of talk about the what-ifs of what might have gone into the Hall of Fame other than Osamendius in the Breaking Bad canon.

But Osamandias, if you folks at home are unfamiliar, is the third to last episode of Breaking Bad ever in the final season. Remember that the final season was split into two. This is like an early, early move on the part of AMC. Just really milk it on Breaking Bad. This is a prequel to the Breaking Bad film El Camino. Stop. Stop.

It aired on September 15th, 2013. How does that make you feel? Not good. Over 10 years. Not good. Since Ozzymanda's premiere. At least Breaking Bad feels like it has settled into the public consciousness in a way that feels not always.

but not of this era we're in now. There are a lot of shows where you tell me, oh my God, that was 10 years ago and it feels like it happened yesterday. This doesn't, I think because it was so seismic, it was immediately canonized, like in real time. Yes. That's an amazing episode of TV.

And since then, its reputation has only grown. It comes up any time you're having a best episodes of basically any form of TV conversation. And I think because of that, it almost seems separate from time. I also think that because, Better Call Saul happened and Better Call Saul was great. We have a whole entire sequel prequel series that came after this to really cement how long ago it was actually that Breaking Bad ended. This, okay, as I mentioned, September 15, 2013, written by Mora Wally Beckett, who is an icon in the sort of Gilligan verse in terms of writers and directed by, as you mentioned, the great Ryan Johnson. Ryan Johnson, this is 2013. So this is pre-his, his most, Most universally loved and no one ever argues about it,

film Star Wars The Last Jedi, movie that I love. That's how young we were. Is the Last Jedi hadn't come out yet? Barely. A aged by the experience. Barely a twinkle in his eye. But he had to brick my favorite Brothers Bloom and Looper. And so he was like, he was a film guy doing television at a time when that wasn't as much

of a thing as it has since become, you know, when like Soderberg did the Nick and stuff like that. Like we start to sort of blur what is a, you know, we are, you and I are sitting on the other side of several episodes of disclaimer. You know, now we're living in a, in a world where filmmakers are making television all the time. But this was just like, for the Johnson fans, the real Ryan Sickos, this was a huge moment for us. Were you a big Ryan Johnson fan before? You're a brick guy, right? Absolutely. Huge brick guy. I too am a brother's bloom head, enthusiast, supporter, advocate. We're out there in the streets with sandwich signs, to get people to watch the Brothers Bloom.

Please watch the Brothers Bloom. It's so good. Please do. As you celebrate Adrian Brody and the Brutelist this year, consider Brothers Bloom. There's really no better way. It's the reason for the season. But I think as far as what makes prestige TV, we talk about the anti-hero element

of Breaking Bad and the Sopranos and all these shows that kind of crystallized during that period. To me, it's as much about the filmmaking. It's as much about bringing in heavyweight, if not always big name, but like heavyweight cinematographers and directors and people give these shows a real sense of visual flare and style.

And long, you know, it's not just the Ryan Johnson episodes of Breaking Bad. This is a hugely visually visually inventive show in a way that made it feel like nothing else on TV. Like there's a version of Breaking Bad that is very simple, propulsive plot that feels like almost procedural if it was shot differently.

Still well written, still well conceived, all those things. But what gives it a lot of its style and flare is the way it looks. And this episode is no different, obviously. Yeah. This episode is incredible putting it on to sort of rewatch it to talk about it with you today. First of all I was struck by how much I remembered. I know. Almost every single line and shot composition and all that sort of stuff.

And yeah, to your point, what a visual, like every single shot. And yeah, it's not just the Ryan episodes. Like Michelle McLaren, who is incredible, Breaking Bad director, did such good work making that desert and that sky look so huge. and these people look so tiny inside of it and that iconic sort of goldy red dirt and blue blue sky, that sort of color palette

of this universe. What a gorgeous show. What is your larger relationship to Breaking Bad? This is a little bit of a redemptive arc for us on this video feed because we just admitted yesterday that we had not seen

the Sopranos, but we have seen Breaking Bad. Of course we have. So tell me, What was your, like, how did you watch Breaking Bad when it came out? I was like semi-real-time. I think it was one of those things where it took a season or two under its belt, and then you start hearing the word or mouth.

I'm like, oh, man, I really got to get up on this show. Yeah, yeah. So I was able to watch the final few seasons in real time, including that excruciating weight as the final season was broken into two pieces. Very tough times for all of us, but it's hard not to love when you're in it. Like, I think there's some shows that with distance, in retrospect, you find, like, greater admiration for. I think that's true of Breaking Bad,

but you're loving it day to day, second to second episode to episode, because it's just one of the best plotted shows of all time. And plotted in a way that I think makes it so rewarding from a character perspective. Like it rewards, and this episode is a great example of that every investment you make in Walt and Jesse and Hank and everyone on the board. And that's a pretty rare thing. I think also, you know, you and I on this feed have covered shows that feel like there's a ton of meat on the bone discuss and shows that feel like quite thinner and harder to sort of pull out deep analysis about.

This is a show that is just like made for recappers and podcasters to chew over. And the Redditors. The intentionality is ridiculous. Yeah. Yeah. In the visuals you mentioned, it's funny. I was, uh, I know you know this, but I was just rewatching the cinematic classic sneakers, which is a beautiful film.

But like there's that scene where they had, they dump out the scrabble tiles and they're sort of doing intergrams of scrabble tiles. I was like, if this were breaking bad, we'd be up through the bottom. table on those tiles. I was like, where's my breaking bad shot of this? The word search engine is just going nuts. Yeah, exactly. Okay, so broad strokes, our relationship with Breaking Bad, we were watching in real time.

I was, this was, like, in the last few seasons, this is like kind of the beginning of my podcasting career. Yeah. So this is one of the first shows I ever, like, podcasted about. A little baby Joe out there podcasting about breaking bad. So this show, and. justified, which were, you know, two of my most beloved shows, but those were like the first couple shows that I was recapping on podcasts.

Amazing. I had a podcast called The Ones Who Knock. I don't think it exists online anymore. Oh, no. But I have people occasionally being like, hey, we're that breaking bad podcast. You did go to the ether. I do apologize. That's a real shame.

I think like an episode here or there exists around, but that's, but yeah. And partially, because I was recapping it and I was podcasting it and I was like so new and hadn't done this before. I was rewatching and rewatching and rewatching and so anxious to make sure I got every single thing right as opposed to my sort of like lazy slap dash approach now. And I mean, it's what you're known for. It's really notorious around the company, but I'm glad you put a name to it. But I, like, this show will forever have such a deep place in my heart because, I mean, it is a masterpiece in and of itself and I would have enjoyed it anyway. But because it's one of the first shows I covered in that way. It just like it means that much more to me. And it's funny because,

you know, there's some people who missed it. Just like, just like some wonderful TV podcasters you know may not have seen The Sopranos. Of course. There are some people with excellent TV taste who've never seen Breaking Bad. And sometimes when I try to introduce it to them and they can't get past the beginning of the first season, which is, it's all quite violent, but there is some like real goopy dissolving bodies and bathtub stuff that have just like right at the beginning. Goop budget. Really impressive for Campbell TV. Absolutely.

AMC is really flexing on that one. But they can't get past it, and they're surprised that it's a show that I like so much. You're not like really a goop-forward guy. Like, is this in your wheelhouse, this show in terms of the things you like in general? I'm not goop-forward,

but I think shows like Breaking Bad and by extension Better Call Saul reveal to me how numb I am to violence in general, because I'm just watching these shows having a great time. mending them, especially then to everybody. Yeah. And then people pull them up and be like, oh my God. Exactly.

Episode two or three, like there's really grisly stuff happening right off the bat. I literally don't even know what scene you're talking about. And so I do think it's pitched well within the show in that context. The violence does happen. Issaidoo is surprising when it does. But like Ozzy Mandis is a great showcase of this of we get a brutal character death in this episode. We don't actually see it in this case. We get a hard zoom out, wide view of this.

the canyon, of the sound, of the echo. Every piece of violence on this show feels like it is about that resonance, right? It's not about even someone as important as Hank dying. It's about what does this mean? Why is this happening? And, of course, setting the stakes of this world that is inherently crazy dangerous. I love that. So, Osamandias is a really interesting episode in that it's a masterpiece in and of itself,

but also I think a lot of people sort of wish that this were the finale. because I believe that Grand Estate and Felina have like a slightly more divisive reaction from people and they sort of wish that this were the finale of Breaking Bad. Do you ever think about, like, what's your attempt on the final two episodes? And do you ever agree with the people who say this should have been where it ended?

I think you'd have to... With Jesse chained up in a mess lab. That's the thing. Like, I think you would have to button up things in a slightly different way. Yeah. Jesse has done over the course of Breaking Bad plenty of terrible and reprehensible things

but there is something about that character where he's so much of an open wound and an emotional pressure point for the audience that if you left him chained up as a meth pet I don't know that people would deal very well with that. I mean, he's on the leash. They're just telling him what to do like I don't know how else to describe it.

Yeah, gigapets, meth pets, same thing. I mean, that is, it's one of those visuals and one of those concepts that is so, it like needles you to your core, seeing him in the like cement pit, right? If that was the last we ever saw of that character, you know, again, sequel movies be damned, I think this show would have a very different reputation.

Like, that's a very cold ending. Yeah. And maybe one that Breaking Bad would have deserved in some ways and would be worthy of the series. And overall, like, this was always going to end badly. But that would be pretty badly. I think I go back and forth on it. I really like,

Grand State, I really like Felina a lot. So I don't know that I would ever wanted to end here. But I do kind of think that Walt getting to play the hero as he does in the finale and us leaving Jesse with this sort of like, I fucking did it. I escaped sort of moment did strike some people as like unnecessarily. I mean, Walt dies, but like unnecessarily like redemptive, I suppose for Wall. And maybe some people would have preferred him Either leave him in the Volvo in Grand State

Or leave him waiting to get picked up You know, by a vacuum salesman I think it ultimately comes down to how you think about things like redemption Because even within this specific episode Walt does some things by the end That are selfless in their own kind of way But honestly Again I don't want to

Yes and the Breaking Bad writers Because they're very good at what they do I don't know if you know that. But what Walt does in this episode, which is let Skyler off the hook legally, whilst, like, grandstanding and growling and all the sort of stuff that he does, kind of is the pitch-perfect redemptive act for me. Like, that's exactly what it feels like Walt is capable of. and like selling Pinkman out

feels right to me. Totally. Going back to save him, I guess I do to this day have some questions about that. But I'm not upset about it. I just like to think about it. I think it's fair.

And there's no question that the last two episodes in that way do have a sort of dreamlike quality of like Walt fell asleep in a car and imagined this was how it all turned out or something. But I think some of that is the problem of breaking bad very much starts as a Walter White show. Yeah. And if it ended as a Walter White show, it ends with this episode.

But along the way, Jesse Pinkman became almost too important to just throw away in this capacity. And so he deserves a send-off too that's a little bit better than this one. He lived many seasons past he was supposed to. You don't think Meth-Ped is enough? Spending time with Todd forever? Okay. One of the reasons, other than all the things we've already listed, that Osamandia stands out to me is, I think, a perfect episode of television, is to your point, it gives all of our main characters

an absolute showcase moment or two, at least. There's room for Marie. There's room for Hank. There's plenty of room for Skyler. There's room for Aaron Paul to do the crying, screaming thing he does so well. And then, you know, Cranston's just absolutely smoke in it. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable.

So when you get to the end of a series, that is, that feels as big as Breaking Bad did. This is a smaller core cast, but I remember, like, when Mad Men had its final season, and you would say goodbye to character sometimes episodes before the show ended, and then you're just like, oh, no, I'm never going to see Harry Crane again, I guess, you know, stuff like that.

It was like if they had a big speech, I'm worried that I'm just never going to have any more time with that character. And granted, there are two more episodes after this, so, like, this is some goodbye for some people, but just the room and the generosity this episode has for everyone. I think especially someone like Marie, who is important to spend time with because of when we think about the cost of Hank's loss, we have to think about Marie, probably first and

foremost. There's so much to highlight in this episode, and I don't want to get it to get lost, but the scene in which she is explaining to Skyler, what she thinks has happened. And we already know. And we already know the truth is just one of the most heartbreaking things in this entire show. And again, this is an episode that ends with someone in a meth dungeon. So it's so hard to watch and to see all these characters wrestling with the lack of information in real time. And wrestling with the fact that they don't really know who Walt is or what version of Walt is going to show up or what this guy is even capable of. Like everyone is reckoning with these circumstances in their own way. And I think the fact that she gets those moments where she not only gets to think she's in control for a second, but have it ripped away.

like you just don't get grace for supporting characters in that way in these kinds of episodes very often, as you said. I think also we're going to run through some like awards we have for this episode, so I don't want to, do you have the Skyler-Marie scene on your like awards list anywhere? I don't specifically. Yeah, yeah. So I just want to talk about the composition of that shot, right? Because Skyler is all in white and then Marie is in her like classic iconic purple,

but it's really, really dark. So she's like basically clad in black and they're sat facing each other, cross each other at Skyler's. desk and it's just such a beautiful shot in a way and it's like held there for a while on that sort of wide frame in a way that like

again another director wouldn't think like now is the time for art. I know. I know. In this moment when these two people are talking to each other, you know? And it's just like moments like that in among the other more famous shots from this episode that makes me really appreciate it.

So one of the reasons I watch talk about this aspect outside of sort of our award structure. One of the things I love about this episode is even rewatching it and knowing every, like, frame of it as I was last night, I was like, wait, is this the moment that Heisenberg dies? Is this the moment that Walt dies? Because there's like some sort of like letting go of something. There's a death of sorts for Walt in this episode. There is a very iconic shot, and we'll talk about it for sure.

But like, they're like, I was trying to figure out, is this the, what? is this the end of for Walt's? And I don't, I think he still is trying on, you know, end of Walter White family man when his kid is standing over his wife, right, calling the cops on him, shielding Skyler from him, and him saying, we're family and getting nothing from them. So like end of Walter White, I think what it is, because he'll still try to Heisenberg his way out of things he'll still, but end of his fantasy that this is a temporary thing or he could come back from this or there is some way back from this. The death of the Walter White who had several barrels of millions of dollars buried in the desert, the end of him as a father, the end of him

as a husband, the end of him as a guy who could talk his way out of any corner. I think that's the critical one. And like Hank puts a finger on it. It's like it's almost the end of him as the smartest guy in the room. Right, right, right. The one who has the answers, who can negotiate, who can plead, who can bribe people when he has to bribe people. He's straight up, just like offering millions of dollars to try to save Hank's life absolutely does nothing. Because he is outfoxed. He has no options. He has no answers. And I think seeing that version of Walt, where he has no recourse is what leads him, like, he's still going through the motions of trying to make those cases and trying to do the thing that has gotten him out of so many jams.

And you can feel in the performance that character getting so, exasperated that it's not working. It feels like the death of that as much as anything. Clearly, it's the end of an empire and it's the end of this kind of overall journey that he's been on. But really, it's the end of him being able to solve literally anything. This is also the beginning of TV nerds everywhere knowing more about a Percy Shelley poem than they usually do, because the title of his episode comes from a Shelley poem.

And that poem is about, you know, look on my works of You Mighty and Despair. this broken statue of a man in a desert who had once conquered and then is now just sort of rubble in ashes. Broadstrokes Ozzy Mani's lasting legacy on TV. Anything that comes to mind, I wrote that down without a clear answer for myself, but anything that it spurred for you? I think it casts a super tall shadow, not just for the idea that your finale needs to be great, but that you need this multi-episode arc buildout to get there beyond just having a lot of a great final season of whatever show you're trying to make. The idea that this is, not just the finale,

not just the penultimate episode, but this is really in the lead-up, and all of this is happening and all of this is paying off. And it's just haymaker after haymaker after haymaker. Like a showrunner for any other show would kill to have the fourth best scene in this episode, in their episode. I just, I'm not envious of that challenge in a post-breaking bad environment. And I think that's part of why it hit the way it did

and it resonated so strongly, is audiences just were not tuned at that time to think, this is when all of these things are going to be delivered to us. And so I think ultimately it sort of changed the pacing of how final seasons are delivered.

Yeah, I really agree. I think, to go back to my earlier point, I think that part of the shadow that it casts is people starting to question whether or not to put everything in the finale or to parcel it out of the last few episodes. Because I think for so long, that idea of the,

finale, you know, like Andy Greenwald did a great series on this very feed about Stick the Landing, this idea of celebrating and taking care with these finalities. And you and I love the leftovers finale. Or there's like a number of finalies we can point to I love the loss finale. But like this idea of saving all your juice for the final episode, I think is sort of especially because because that idea of like, did you stick the landing or did your finale have everything has become sort of this impossible bar to clear for TV these days that I think they're just sort of like, let's just space it out a little bit. Let's give the viewers a nice slow slide to the end sort of thing.

But I think that is ultimately why this show was such a masterclass in momentum, right? Like the way that the seasons are paced, the way that individual episodes are paced, is just so hard to do to keep the tension of the show that taught for that long. I don't know how you do it without characters like this, without stakes like this, without, honestly, a huge part of it in this episode is counterbalancing all of the meth drug crime elements with the domestic part of this story,

which is I think where a lot of shows struggle of like, what do you do with the wife and kids at home of your problematic male lead? And this is a show that I think the audience struggled with that at times in previous seasons of like, what are we supposed to make of Skyler? And I want to get into that in greater detail later. Okay.

Just to re-litigate it, one final time. Why not? 10 years later? Let's just bring it back up. We'll do that. We'll do Last Jedi. We'll just run through the greatest hits.

Are you going to pay for Anna Gunn's therapy this time? Or who's in charge of that? I'm here only to celebrate Anna Gunn, who is wonderful in this episode. And is, like, to the point here, given a ton to do and a ton to carry in a way that feels hugely satisfying for that character in addition to the DEA agents and the criminals and everyone else involved. I think also in terms of... character deaths. Breaking Bad was obviously a show that didn't shy away from this. We had already

seen Mike's death. We had already seen Gus's death. We had already seen Jane's death. Yeah. Which, of course, we come back to in this episode. There's something about Hank's death that signals to all of us were in the end game now, right? What is it about that moment, other than this is the moment that Walter White couldn't talk his way out of? Right. But it's sort of the absence of something in the show, what does that feel like to you? I think it's the one line that Walt doesn't want to cross. Yeah. And so once he does or is kind of dragged across it, like, of course there's no going back

from any character dying, but now he has things to explain. Now he has things to account for. Now there's nowhere to run, right? Even if he is trying to go home and get his family together, the second that they find out that Hank, if Walt is here, Hank can't be, that's kind of when everything with Skyler and his son change. So I think that's a huge part of it. And as an audience reckoning with the idea that, like, look, some comeuppance is coming for Walt at some point in this show.

Like, he's not going to be a successful criminal by the end of the finale. It's just like not how TV works. Yeah. But there's a version of that where Hank is the guy who brings him in or Hank is the guy who brings him down. And we're so close to that happening that having it ripped away just feels, it feels like the kind of thing you can't just stumble back from. You're a Marie. You're like, he had him in handcuffs. He had him.

He had him. He had him there. This is why you don't get into business with Nazis, ultimately, is the real message of breaking bad. I think that's it. There's a shot. It didn't make my awards list, but there's the shot where Jack shakes his hand and the swastika is just sort of front and center on his hand. This episode starts, it's very much like a pickup from a cliffhanger of the previous episode, right? Like, we're in the same scene that we left.

I mean, obviously we start with the flashback to season one episode one. Right. But when we're in the action, we're picking. up where the previous episode left off. And Gomi has already died. So we're already like, oh my God, we lost. And I think that's part of it too. We're just sort of like, okay, that's going to be the sacrificial lamb of this scene.

And then they're like, no, we're in the final episodes. It's Hank. And it's devastating. I mean, him kind of crawling towards the rifle to try to get some way to defend himself as you see Jack stalking towards him in the background. Like, we are Hank. Jack slowly, like ambling. Taking his time.

Yeah, just a leisurely stroll. There's also a really interesting peppering of humor inside of this episode, like when Walt buys the truck, you know, or anything that Todd does in its bizarre way. What a perfect little psycho. Yeah, he's just wonderful in this episode. He's like polite to the end sort of demeanor. I'm sorry for your loss kills me every time. when he's like just gently lifting pigment off the ground whose face is just like roast beef at this point.

And he's just sort of like, let's go. Let's go to work. Ready to cook. Let's go. You know, that's the show. And that's why the show is the best. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigue. Ask your doctor about zebbound.

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and save up to 20% to get the stay you expected. When you want savings, not surprises. It matters where you stay. Hilton for the stay. Anything else you want to say before we get to like some of our awards that we've assembled? No, let's cook. Okay.

Great. I'm starting with best performance, which is like, I feel like there's only one answer. Baby Holly? Yeah. I mean, honestly, she's very good. She's very good. But this is a Cranston episode.

What did they do to that baby? I don't know. I'm worried. I'm very concerned about what was going on with the baby. Where did they put that baby's mother that made that baby cry and call for mother so adorably? The way that baby coweres in the fire truck seat. Yeah.

There's something that was going on. Yeah, it is Cranston. I mean, honestly, in my notes, I wrote down Aaron Paul and I knew I was lying to myself, it's Cranston. Aaron Paul is doing what he does best, which is screaming and crying and sort of like becoming a sack of potatoes in people's arms because he's so devastated by more and more and more

of what he's learned. And not just the screaming, I think he gives great, like, silent film acting in this episode. The look as he's kind of kneeled in the desert and looking up at Waltz as he gives him up, you see the whole show playing across his face. But Cranston, I think especially in that scene, the phone call scene, when he says, you know, you're never going to see Hank again. And just his absolute devastation while giving this performance for the cops listening.

We love a performance within a performance. We are who we are. But as those things go, that's about as good as you can do. Yeah. Best line. For me, it's Hank's, you're the smartest guy I've ever met, and you're too stupid to see that he made up his mind 10 minutes ago. I love that Hank gets the kind of send-off he gets.

To the extent that anyone in this episode is a hero, it's Hank, and he is defiant to the end. He is not going to be manipulated or bribed or talked out of doing his job or what he thinks is the right thing to do. And the way he gets to be uncompromising is what makes this show so good. And, like, there are versions of characters in Breaking Bad who come up for an episode or two who are great. There are versions of characters who recur,

like a Saul or a Hewell, who are perfect. And then there's Hank who's just like both perfect, yuck-hucking brother-in-law in such a precisely written way. And also the hero, DEH, and who's like the one person trying to do the right thing. Rob, and I hope you take this as a compliment. You seem like the kind of guy who might one day start home brewing. Do you feel like that's something that you will do?

I don't take this as a compliment, and I absolutely will not do it. Not happening for me I will check in in 10 years time If you told me I'm like growing my own coffee beans like I would believe you Home brewing of a different sort perhaps Okay Home brewing beer in my garage against code

I simply would never For legal purposes I would not do it All right I'll check back in 10 years And I can't wait for your incredibly Disappointingly punny names That you'll come up for I also had that name like Hoping Mad, that's the one

There you go he's ready. The year's smartest guy ever met. I also, as a backup, I've still got things left to do. Yeah. From Waltz. He said I still have two more episodes of this TV show.

We are contractually obligated to two more episodes for AMC. So I will, Walter White will return. Walter White will return to two more episodes. And then, I mean, I don't want to, I feel I don't want to step on, like, anything, any answer you might by he's, like, smuggling all this other things. Sure. I watched Jane die. We have to talk about it.

Yeah, I watched Jane die as an incredible moment. I think as far as the things in this episode that you feel like Walt can't come back from, and some of them he kind of does, right? Like, I think the moment where he grabs Baby Holly and runs to the truck, it's like, oh my God, this is hit a different level. Babies in Peril is a whole separate genre that is very, it's very difficult to watch. Yeah. For me personally, but I think for a lot of people, like I remember watching Eastbound and Down

and there's a whole arc where Kenny Powers is taking care of a baby in like a Mexican hotel room. I'm just like, I literally cannot watch this. It is making me so uncomfortable. What's your level of babies in peril you can't handle? Are you okay with the three men and a baby? Yeah. See, that's the thing for hijinks reasons. I'm mostly okay.

But like a Mad Max original flavor, it's a no for you. We're walking the line a little bit. And there's something about that that escalates. There's something about this sequence. Snowpiercer. I think once we cross the line into you know those babies serve a use at the end of the day I don't want to spoil for people

who haven't seen Snowpiercer but they have a function in the story the fact that Walt doubles back to deliver this line to Jesse and reveal to him finally after almost doing it many times throughout the show that he was there when Jane died and doing it really only to be cruel and I'd do it again essentially that's really the vibe? When he kind of doubles back, he could say anything, right? Like, it could be a parting emotional moment. It could be an apology. It could be any number of things, but it's him twisting

the knife just to twist the knife. And again, on a character who we just can't help but feel for an Aaron Paul character in this way. It's hard, and it is one of those things that you feel like, how could I possibly root for Walt after something like this? Especially when he has to be thinking about that moment when he's chained up as the meth pet in the final scene. And he's like, I have one more opportunity to possibly protect another woman in my life. I'm going to take it. So Walt in that moment, that twist of the knife of I watched Jane die and giving Jesse up is because he has decided he is blaming Jesse for Hank's death for everything that put them there.

because he has yet to reach the level of awareness where he can take responsibility for it. So he's like, it's Jesse's fault. And I will make this as horrible for him as I feel right now. I mean, this is the problem with thinking you're as smart as Walt thinks that he is, is that if something goes wrong, it's always somebody else's. Like, he's making the perfect cook every time.

And if there is a bubble, he didn't do it. Someone else must have done it. If there's something to learn from this episode of television, this episode of this podcast, other than, I guess, don't brew, beer in your garage is if you're going to enlist Nazis, Neo or otherwise to help you. Yes. Don't give them the precise longitude and latitude of where you've hidden your fortune.

Maybe go a few degrees off. I know we're all in a rush in our day-to-day lives. Like, look, we're all just trying to keep up with this topsy-turvy world. A generalized location, I think, would have done fine. Drop a pin. Drop a, this is the thing. Just drop the pin and drag it across the desert a little bit. They're going to see you.

They're going to see the cars out there. They're going to come find you. All right. We're going to do best in interrupt. There's really only one, but we wanted to talk about it. So why don't you start? What is the song of this episode?

The song, there is only one. Yeah. But confusingly may be one of two names. Take my true love by the hand, or times are getting hard boys by the limelighters. Yeah. I can't quite tell which one is the actual title of this song. We've seen it listed both ways on many reputable sources.

It seems like both. But it is one of these old standards. It is in this sort of like whistly, warbly, tone that I think Breaking Bad does perfectly so many times. This is the song of the place as Walt is rolling his giant barrel of money across the desert past some ephemera of

previous seasons that we may talk about a little bit later but overall a song about how nothing ever ends easy. These things are always ugly or else they wouldn't be over. I love that interpretation. I think also when it's take my true love by her hand lead her through the town

say goodbye to everyone, goodbye to everyone and he's rolling the money barrel. I'm like are we saying that Walt's true love is the barrel of money? And I think you could argue yes. Or at least the security that it provides. I mean, in a way, this is what he's been after the whole time, right? It's like this was the goal was to make the money. When you get to Felina, again, an episode that I actually really enjoy.

And my favorite scene from that episode, the finale, is when he's talking to Skyler and he finally admits I did it for me. So I think this idea of like I'm a family guy This money is for my family It's not it's him being in love with The power of money The journey of it, yeah absolutely The barrel of it all

The other lyrics are Had a job a year ago, had a little home Now I've got no place to go I guess I'll have to roam Which like as we end of this episode Is a sort of perfect Encapsulation of where Walt is Definitely

You know To name the best needle drop in an episode Where there's really only one needle drop Might sound silly But Breaking Bad was so good at this and Saul as well. Like the music supervision on these shows is like unparalleled. And often it's these little hidden gem of songs that you then forever identify with the show. There's like they're like rule pick the most obscure monkeys track that no one's ever heard.

And we're going to play it over this soulful montage and you're forever going to get part sick when you hear Crimson and Clover or whatever it is. And one of those things that's a really collaborative effort of this show. show. I saw Ryan Johnson and some interviews said that that was kind of news to him, that that was the song playing over that scene when he watched the episode. And so like between music supervision, obviously Vince Gilligan is an active hand in so many of the things involved in the shows, the directors, the top line talent, both in front of and behind the camera and in the edit bay, and working on the show on every level, it really is just one of those products where everything is pitched so perfectly. It's also, Dave Porter, who did the score for Breaking Bad and for Sol,

is one of those TV composers where I just like, I love his interviews because some TV scores just blend to the background and some you're like, tell me Michael Giacchino. What did you mean when you did this? And Dave Porter's on that level for me. Okay, iconic image slash shot composition. I think there's kind of two and they're sort of twinned.

For me, the go-to one when I think about this episode, is Skylar collapsing in the street. Okay, yeah. But you could just as easily say Walt collapsing in the desert. And they're there for a reason. I agree. Like, Skyler was my runner up. Like her in the white, you know, still dressed all in white with some blood on her because of the skirmish that they had.

Because there was a fucking knife fight in their house. Slashed his palms open. And on her knees screaming because he's taken baby Holly. But I think Walt's, it's not just Walt collapses because it is that. It's the way that Brian Cranston physically transformed his face into the tragedy mask. Literally. Like it's insane. How did he do that?

How can you contort your mouth in that way? I don't know, but he did it. And so he, that face he is wearing for a while. But when he falls down and he's like on his side and his face is, half in the dirt, and that's when he sees Jesse under the car. But that shot that many people, including myself, were like, well, clearly, this is a reference to Osamandius. And Ryan Johnson's like, news to me. Like, even on the Wikipedia for this episode, they're like, and here he is, Walter White, as Osamandis.

Crumbled statue himself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Ryan's like, okay, you say so. And that's art to me. Dog, it's a metaphor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Also, a lot of people compared it to Gus Fring's face when Gus, when Gus, you know, sees his lover and partner killed and stuff like that.

And again, Ryan's like, kill coincidence. Favorite under-recognized detail. Before we go there, let me make the case for the Skylar part of this. Because one, like this was Anna Gunn submission for Emmy consideration this episode, rightly so, like an absolute powerhouse performance. She is the emotional core of it. And I think a lot of those scenes kind of leading up to her collapsing in the street. the whole fight in the house, her kind of pulling the knife.

And as far as iconic images go or like perfect shots go in this show, the slow walk toward either the phone or the knife block is just as good as it gets. And I think overall, like they know how to play that sort of tension so well on Breaking Bad. But her turn within that scene, her chance to be a kind of a hero and to stand up for herself. And I think the realization that Skyler has who, look, this is a woman whose life has been crumbling out from under her for seasons upon Zanzas. seasons now, and she's been aware of some of the ways for part of it, but it crystallizes when Walt grabs Holly. And her transformation in those moments to banging on the truck window, like pleading with

him to leave Holly behind if he's going to go. And watching him as like, Walt moves another immovable object of like backing the truck through the car. I love that. I just, I really, I think this episode hinges on her performance as much as anything. Like her ability, we're going to talk. I want to talk later about her on the other end of the phone call with Walt. But really it's her selling the devastation of this,

of the complete destruction of their family life, of the one thing, again, that Walt was purportedly fighting for, even if really he was fighting for himself. And I think also leading up to that, there's, you know, Marie forcing her to tell, like, her son about this, and him saying, then you're just as bad. Yeah. And her having to be like, I know, I agree with you.

Yes. Complicity is a hell of a thing. Is this where you want to talk about, Skyler? Or you want to wait to talk about it more? I want to hold that a little bit. Okay. Favorite under-recognized detail. So we're going to talk about pants.

Do the pants count at this point? It's pretty recognized. It's pretty recognized that. Just in case people don't know. If you are not aware, as Walt is rolling his giant barrel of money through the desert, he strolls right on by his own pants that he lost five seasons prior, four seasons prior, four seasons prior. Yeah.

Couldn't be bothered. And in his defense, he's hardly the same person who lost those pants. I will say for the Ryan heads, the Johnson sickos, it's Noah Segan as the firefighter who I do love Noah Segan's appearance. Noah Segan who's in all of Ryan Johnson's films and, you know, gets a breaking bad cameo as well. So if we're considering the pants to be like the free space on the bingo card. Okay, what's your backup? I have always been fascinated by the dog that crosses the road at the end of this episode.

Yeah. So Walt gets in the minivan, it's carted off into the distance. A dog crosses the road behind him that's like maybe a border collie adjacent. I'm not sure what kind of dog it is exactly. We know enough about this show. And I feel like we know enough about Ryan Johnson as a filmmaker to surmise that that is not a dog that wandered through set. It seems extremely purposeful. There is a lot of like heavy dog symbolism and language around Jesse throughout the life of the show. And so like I've always interpreted that

as the sort of like, oh, there's still this trail we have to. Don't forget about the meth pet. Don't forget about the meth pet who's chained up in his little dungeon on his little rotary leash. Like I've always taken it as a subliminal nod to the sort of unfinished business of that. But like I don't know exactly what that dog means, but I know it's there for a reason. And it's a tribute to this show's power. They're like, I'm still here trying to figure it out. All these years later, nearly 10 years later. Okay, over 10 years later.

Okay. Best moment is this where you want to talk about Skylar? This is the phone call for me. If that's a moment... I know. Moment's tough. Let's just say scene. If you're going to pick an individual moment,

I will say it is the moment for both Skyler and for the audience where you get the slow click into place of understanding what Walt is doing on the phone. of the shift from this man is a raving, dangerous lunatic who is scolding and threatening his wife on the phone to, oh, like, he is channeling this persona that he is built. He is acting out this rage. And I think doing so in a way that is like kind of funny

and pointed in a metatextual way because the things he is saying about Skylar are many things that people watching the show said about Skylar for a long time. They sure did, Rob. They certainly did. But I think like the way that all of this stuff just ties you in fucking knots

because you are ready to believe that Walt is the demon he is presenting himself to be at the beginning of that call. And by the end of it, realizing what his ultimate purpose was, which again, like selfless is maybe too strong a word for that kind of thing,

but pointed and purposeful. And like he is a person who in that moment had an exact objective and is not driven by the sort of rage he was displaying when we last saw him on screen when he left the house. I think also because it's the thing, kind of, I agree with you that this is the moment, if you want to call this a moment.

And I think it's because whenever Walt has done something, either heroic or not, it's been for recognition and applause. Yes. And here he's doing something where really only Skyler, you know, and perhaps his kid and perhaps Marie, like, know what he's doing. Yeah. And so he's not doing it for, and he's doing it for an audience of one, essentially. And that is as close to selfless as I think he's been able to get in several seasons now.

And so there's other things he's going to do, including, I would say, rescuing Jesse, but is a bit more about, like, playing the hero than what he actually does here, which is, I'm not doing this for a plaza recognition. I'm doing this because it's the right thing to do. And I do love my wife and I do love my family. And I think also you could add into that, again, on the performance front, his, like, baby talk to baby Holly when he's changing her diaper. You know what I mean? He's like, he's still playing the role of doting dad.

He's like, this could be us. This is our new family. It's just you and me kid on the road. And I fixed the diaper so everything's fine. And baby Holly's like, no, they've traumatized me off camera. I don't know what they did, but I'm very upset. Mommy, mommy, please. Please, please, mommy.

You know, and Kranson's face when he just realized. that he can't have that either. Yeah. Yeah. And I think for both of their parts, just a plus plus plus phone acting on both ends of that conversation. The way Cranston is breaking down

over the course of it, like literally in tears. And if you had any doubt as to what his intentions were by that point, I think that's probably your final reveal of what this actually was. But like overall, the structure of him appearing to walk straight into this trap.

And Walt is a guy who's walked into plenty of traps. And he's usually had something in his back pocket. We've been conditioned by this episode to think, this guy is off the rails. He has lost control of this situation. And this is one area in which he can exert some sense of control over one thing that is important to him, which is getting Skyler off the hook.

I also say in terms of like best moment without dialogue or anything else around it, in terms of what you're saying earlier about this circular payoff feeling of, you know, we get the flashback to episode one. him on the phone talking it, lying to Skyler. Right. Jesse doing, like, fight moves behind him in the background. Honestly, relatable. Incredible stuff.

Is this what you do on, like, non-video podcasts? When I'm just constantly, I'm throwing jazz. Or, you know, like, look, I'm basketball-clined. I'm doing some crossovers. I'm hitting some fade-away jumpers. Like, it's just what people do. That's what I thought. But his first lies, essentially to Skyler were watching on the phone,

and then, like, the brilliant way that all of that fades away. Yeah. And then, like, the, you know, the shot is static and we get the current state of affairs come in. But I think even more so in terms of Breaking Bad building lore, just the shot of Walt at the very recognizable wall where you go when you're going to be picked up by the vacuum salesman. Yep. It just, like, tells us everything we need to know without any dialogue. Exactly. We know what that means.

We know where that goes. Yeah. And the show trusts the audience to remember that wall, that van, all of that sort of stuff. One little honorable mention as far as moments go, the moment where Flynn dives

to put himself in between his mom and dad, again, a character who hasn't always had a lot to do and is kind of put in a raw, like given a raw deal by the structure of the show overall, for him to have that sort of moment in this episode. For me, it was really powerful and it meant a lot. I agree. And just like the physical composition,

of it. Totally. Yeah, absolutely. Late in the day, I added a category, which was best fit because I really just needed to talk for a second about the image of Emmy Award winner Brian Cranston in, would you say they're Haynes, BVDs? What would you call them? I mean, just generalize.

I think they're store brand tidy Whitey's is what they are. Lucy Whitey's a bit. A little Lucy, a little worn to age as, you know, as Brian and Cranston himself is in this scene. A little saggy whiteys. A little saggy. With the apron on top and the gloves. Look. It's a tremendous look and I just wanted us to honor it.

I mean, it's one of the biggest pieces of iconography from this show. Like, when you think about Breaking Bad, that's one of the things that comes to your mind, visually speaking. It's either the button down with the no pants or it's, yeah, the apron over. Or the boiler suits. The boiler suits, I think. Like a lot of pragmatic wear over. This is not the best, best fit show of all time. It's a lot of dad wear.

Yeah. You know, there's some occasional like, you know, double shirt action, maybe some denims on top that. Flynn is rocking in this episode, for example. Marie's purple, everything. She's on point. Nazi tactical gear, I guess, if you want to get into that, that's not really my speed. A classic Gus Frang Poisson Romano's yellow button down, yeah. But he's buttoned up, but buttoned up in a way that I would not say read style icon.

No. He has A style. Is it iconic? Certainly does have A style. And then what would the runner up episode be? I think I already told you mine. Why don't you tell me a little bit more about fly other than it's as a litmus test

for someone deserving of your time and attention? I'm just saying Fly's a wonderful episode of a wonderful show and I think it captures something that we don't get in this one which is time spent within the Walt and Jesse dynamic. Yes. We did it in small but very impactful ways

in Ozymandias, but it's the single most important relationship on the show. And so you get the boiling kettle situation, you get this very, like, very identifiable and recognizable thing of slowly losing your mind over like kind of an insignificant detail. In this case, them chasing a fly around the meth lab and slowly cracking. To me, it represents so much of what makes Breaking Bad Good.

And a lot of it is that slow building of tension over the course of scenes and episodes and within character dynamics. Like that that episode works because we know everything that specifically Walt is hiding from Jesse, but really that both guys are hiding from each other. And that you can play it out in that way, in a bottle with, you know, the stakes may seem small, but within the scope of this show, they are massive. Like a show will tell you what matters to it

and how you're supposed to be watching it and what you're supposed to be paying attention to. If you're watching Fly, and you're not racked with the tension of these guys almost spilling their guts and almost murdering each other because of a literal fly. Again, I don't really know what show you're watching.

I think that's a really good pick and what most people will pick as a second. I will just offer another alternative which is four days out, which is from season two, which is similarly like sort of Walt and Jesse stranded out in the desert. But I think, you know, this was a Michelle McLaren special. So before Ryan came on in season three to sort of be like,

I'm a filmmaker and this is what filmmakers do. Michelle McLaren is just like a top tier TV director. And this was, Breaking Bad is great from the start. it didn't really catch fire until I think it's season three or four when it hits Netflix and people are binging it and then they catch on and stuff like that. I mean, you would be the person to tell us as a historian documenting Breaking Bad in real time. But true, thanks so much for my bona fides. But I think that like season two, this is season two episode nine and this is,

I would say visually the show hadn't like locked itself fully down in its first season. And it is like propulsive and compelling and great performances and a great premise. And we're getting to understand what Vince Gilligan and his writers can do in terms of backing Walt and Jesse into a corner and having them figure out of it and stuff like that. I would say by season two is when they're becoming like artistic inside of all of that. The post-weeds era of Breaking Bad. Yeah. And so I think four days out is one that I think about a lot when I think about this is when I understood sort of how beautiful the show could be. in terms of those, like, wide desert shots.

They really are something. I think they captured that specific, like, New Mexico landscape. Yeah. As well as any, certainly, TV product has and give it a life of its own. And it gives the whole, like, the setting of this show. Like, I don't want to be the person to tell you New York is the fifth main character. Yeah. But, like, Albuquerque is the fifth main character.

What? The ABQ? The ABQ is a huge part of this situation. Did it get an Emmy? It should have, frankly. But yeah, I think the desolation of the desert in particular. Like, look, the suburbia of the white household is what it is and is also kind of iconic in its own way,

especially when there's a pizza on the roof. But the desert is what jumps to mind for me of them in the RV out there. Obviously here in Ozzymandias, like the, how isolated everything feels and how hopeless everything feels out there when these characters, in Walton Jesse's case, like found a kind of safety in that isolation once upon a time. This was the place they could go where they weren't going to be meddled with. Now it's the place you go when Nazis are going to hold you at gunpoint and steal all your money.

It's tough. It's a tough and a slippery slope. It really is. So here's my encapsulation of everything we've done so far. Don't brew beer in your garage, but more importantly, don't make meth in a Winnebago not even once. Yes. Not even once. And certainly don't light a cigarette in there.

That's for sure. All right. So this has been our Hall of Fame, Breaking Bad, Ozzymandias episode. We did it. How do you feel about it? Did we do it justice? We did it. I hope so.

Again, this is one that you could come back to once a year, if not more often than that. I know. I feel like several, if this feed still exists several years from now, it's just going to be... We're going to re-Ozimandias. It's just going to be sales alone in a room in that Sean Fentasy Blackbox room, just like soloing on the mic, talking about Osamandias and going through all the things we would watch, would listen. I'm up for a season pass to that.

If sales blood pressure has survived hearing you and me and Chris Ryan all say, we haven't seen the Sopranos, then perhaps he will be able to talk about Osamandias on Mike. So, yeah, we'll be back with more prestige TV on. We've got some fun stuff for the end of the year. Definitely. Some sort of, like, best of things that we're working on. We've got some black doves on our radar. We got a lot of emails from people who really liked our coverage of the agency.

We certainly did begging, pleading for more of the agency coverage. What is the email where they can reach us if they want to send more, please cover the agency email? Email us at tip-top in the pink at gmail.com. Yeah. Which, like, I think Walter White could appreciate, you know, as much as anybody. This is a man who appreciates a good sound mind. That's Holly when she's back at home. She's tip-top in the pink.

I hope so. Baby Holly. All right. We'll see you soon. Bye. This episode is brought to you by Netflix's remarkably bright creatures. What if a Pacific octopus held the key to a mystery that could heal your heart? Well, that's Tova's reality.

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