The Prestige TV Podcast - Breaking Down 'Tiger' Part Two

Episode Date: January 18, 2021

Chris Ryan is joined by Megan Schuster to talk about the second part of HBO's 'Tiger' documentary that chronicles the rise and fall of Tiger Woods. Hosts: Chris Ryan and Megan Schuster Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

He was at the pinnacle of his sport, but in reality, being Tiger Woods had taken its toll. He said to me, I think I'm going to give up golf him and I'm going to get in the Navy sales. Dad adrenaline rush, it becomes like a drug and you're looking for that next hit. For the squeakiest celebrity on earth, that spelled trouble. Here he was in my bed and he was my. Tiger. This summer, serve up the cookout classics, craft mayo and dressing. Toss green salads with delicious ranch dressing or zesty Italian. Serve smooth, craveably creamy potato salads with mayo. We all know it's not a cookout without craft. It's time to refresh your yard during spring

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My name is Chris Ryan. I'm an editor at the wringer.com. And joining me today to talk about the second part of HBO's Tiger documentary is another editor at The Mirror.com. It's Megan Schuster. Hi, Megan. Hi, Chris. How are you?

Great. Megan edits all of our golf content. Pretty much. She also writes some of our content. Yeah. Yeah. I think for the most part. And is an amateur tigerologist, I think. Yes. And she joins me today to talk about the fallen rise of Tiger Woods, which is sort of what's documented in the second episode. So last week, Kevin Clark and I talked about the first episode. And this episode, the second one, covers mostly

the really darkest days of Tiger Woods from his multiple back surgeries and leg injuries to his multiple extramarital affairs and dalliances with pills and arrests and then kind of culminates with his return to glory at the masters. Megan, I want to get your thoughts on the entire project, you know, because one thing that Kevin Clark and I talked a lot about was whether or not this felt like too much of a tease, that Tiger is obviously somebody who needs the 10-hour last dance treatment. what did you think of this after watching both episodes? So, I mean, I have a lot of thoughts,

but I think my overarching one that I kind of strung throughout both episodes was it felt too soon to me to do something like this with Tiger. Like, I know that's going to get a lot of last dance comparisons and, you know, kind of rightly so. But the benefit of the last dance was that we had time away from Michael Jordan to think about his legend to kind of come to terms with who he was as a player and out.

outside of the sport and then kind of go back in and hear his perspective. And I think the thing that bothered me with this is that because Tiger is still playing, because he is still, you know, trying to win majors and all that. Like, we didn't really hear from anyone who is still in his life. We just hear from people who used to be in his life. And so to me, it kind of felt like this could have benefited from a little bit more time for Tiger to stop being Tiger and then for us to really be able to get into that nitty gritty without it feeling like it kind of just happened. But overall, I think this project definitely had its high moments. Like, I think it really tried to dig into the emotional side of, like, who is Tiger Woods,

which we don't normally get to see from stuff. And so in that realm, I liked it. But I did kind of feel like I would have preferred to see something like this, maybe 10 years from now versus today. Yeah. I mean, I couldn't help. I don't know why I sound like Carrie Bradshaw. I was going to say I couldn't help but wonder.

But there was a moment at the end of the second episode. episode where they're talking about the 2019 Masters. And there's that footage of Tiger and Francesco Molinari. And they're teeing off. And Armicatan is talking about how all these guys had said that they wanted a piece of tiger on Sunday. And then Armiccanin goes, the fuck you do. Yeah. That was an incredible line. And I was like, that should have been a documentary. They should have that, that, like, that level of intensity, but also just like, it felt more tied to moment and it felt more about like the complete tiger woods that I wanted to hear about. Now, yeah, that's also the myth making. I thought that this whole thing had like a lot of really good ideas.

Like I thought obviously I tried to interrogate his relationship with his father in the first one. Then his father dies towards the end of the first episode. And then the second episode is really about how this guy who was built up by the sports media industrial complex was then torn down by the media industrial complex. And even that stuff with the National Enquirer was kind of fascinating. the idea that they did a catch and release on him, that they were basically like following him and Rachel Ukutel around waiting for them to slip up. All that stuff was kind of fascinating.

It just felt like that because there was this really limited select group of people talking for it, I felt like I wasn't really getting the full story. I was only getting the people who were willing to talk. Yes. I think, and I agree with you, I think that was my biggest issue or second biggest issue with it, was that, you know, for good reason, Tiger's mom is not in this. Eelan is not in this. Tiger himself

is not in this. No one who is still today around Tiger participated. And so in some respects, it felt a little bit like, you know, jilted lovers kind of coming out of the woodwork, like, you know, former caddies, former friends, former, you know, whoever who is in his life. And it's like, it made it kind of a tough pill for me to swallow because it didn't really feel like any of the narrator's motives were necessarily super trustworthy. Yeah, I mean, you get, I think Dina Parr in the first episode, his first girlfriend is the person who has the most kind of context around her participation. And there's obviously a pattern in Tiger's life of him discarding people after a while,

you know, whether or not because he feels like he can't trust them or whether it's just because he decides that he needs to compartmentalize, which is a key thing that he tells Rachel Ukutel at one point when she's like, I love you and I just want to spend all my time with you. And he's just like, you need to put that in a box. Imagine having that reaction to telling someone that you love them and have them be like, you're just not compartmentalizing well enough. Yeah. I mean, so how well do you actually remember the Ukutel days? So I was in high school at the time. And so I vividly remember that the day after Thanksgiving, and all of that starting to come out.

And because of the car crash, because of, you know, the rumor that Elyn was chasing him went down with his own golf clubs, like all of that kind of stuff I, like, vividly remembered. But I didn't remember how kind of deep it went with Rachel and how, I mean, I guess I couldn't have, because this is really the first time she's kind of fully opened up about it. Yeah.

But I was definitely shielded from it a little bit more from, like, you know, seeing all those like talk show clips. and stuff of like, you know, having the counter of how many mistresses had come forward and stuff like that. I wasn't a part of that kind of culture of it. But I do remember that post- Thanksgiving morning, just waking up stunned to see what was coming out. It was such a huge story. And it was really one of those scandals that it felt like every day that something new. Something else was coming out. Like sometimes when they do, when something like this becomes a sensation, you feel like you're just like beating a dead horse and it's just like this guy got caught you in his wife,

like how many different ways. But, then it would just be like another person and another person and another porn star and another person. And you'd just be like, oh my God, like this is, this is such a far-reaching conspiracy of adultery. I can't believe it. And I thought it was really interesting in the documentary, how they talked about it too from the fact that like it felt like such a big deal because Tiger had this sort of squeaky clean personality and persona that he like projected out. And it felt like that was maybe why people were piling onto this so much because, you know, it was such like, distinct change from the tiger that we'd seen, you know, for the decades before. It was quite a time to be taking the train from Brooklyn into Manhattan for work and buying a New York

Daily News or a New York Post at the subway station. Because they mentioned, they say that like there were like more covers of the New York Post dedicated to Tiger than there were to 9-11. And I, it definitely feels like that was true. And that was a time of like these, there were a couple clubs in New York, Griffin, where she worked was one, where Rachel worked was one. There was this place called One Oak, which I don't even know if is still around. But like, it was basically, like those were the epicenters of Page Six. And whatever happened at those nightclubs, like the next page six would just have gossip emanating out of like seen at One Oak without his wife or like this person and this, Rihanna in this person or Leo and this person. So it was

kind of a nostalgia trip there. Do you feel like you, I don't know if like empathizes the right word. But do you feel like you understand Tiger any better after watching this documentary in a way you didn't before? So I feel like that in a couple of respects with the documentary. Like I thought the stuff with Dina was illuminating, not necessarily like her insight so much, but just the like the home videos and stuff that she shot of young Tiger. And the line she had where, you know, post-D-UI when his mugshot came out. And her, her watching that video and kind of contrasting the tiger she knew as a teenager with the tiger who was pulled over on the side of the road because he'd ingested, you know, five different

prescription drugs. I thought that was really illuminating and really fascinating. And I thought some of what Rachel had to say about the fact that he just kind of wanted to talk all the time and was just like this fountain of like word vomit almost because he didn't have people in his life that he could talk to. I thought that stuff was really interesting. but as far as sort of the rest of the affairs and things like that, I didn't really feel like I learned anything new necessarily. Yeah, I thought, like, the thing that really jumped out at me, and I don't know if this is too cute by half or what,

but this was the first time that I kind of felt like I truly understood, like, the military training stuff. Yeah. And just how much that must have ag... I totally get, like, how that... And I don't know that we can possibly overstate that the greatest goal... for of all time, practically ruined his body trying to become a Navy seal at age 31. Like, I don't, like, is, I feel like we should understand, like, that should be talked about

more. Yes. Yeah. I think, I think it's fascinating that that is still sort of like a hidden chapter in Tiger's life. Like, like, don't get me wrong. Like, when I heard Wright Thompson's voice come on in like the opening scenes of part two, I like fist pumped because I was like, thank God, we're going to like get into this.

Like, it's about time. but it still feels like, you know, a thing that, like, Tiger just, like, won't acknowledge. And I'm curious if he kind of ever will or will ever interrogate, you know, the reasons that he went and did something like that. But, yeah, I mean, it's one of the craziest things I've ever heard, like, in the sports realm. Because, especially for a golfer. Yeah. He's a golfer. And in the early 2000s was still a time before, I think, the mass, like, Twitter comes around and it's like, 08.

and that's when I think that people start like start really using social media in that way. But in the early 2000s, I feel like you could still, you would hear something like, yeah, Tiger Woods is training with SEALs and you would just kind of keep moving on with your day. And now I feel like people would be like, I need to know everything about this. I need to see videos of this. I'm like, I need to know like, I need to have a sit down with everybody who thought this was a good idea. Like where is anyone in Tiger's life to be like, dude, you're going to destroy your body if you try to train with seals.

And the idea that he was going to quit, it's almost like this kind of like fantasy world of like, you know, like a Howard Hughes, Michael Jackson level of delusion about like what you should or shouldn't be doing with your time.

Yeah. And also I found it fascinating that like the Navy SEALs allowed this. Yeah. Like what the fuck were those guys doing? I guess when it's Tiger Woods, you kind of just let him do whatever he wants. But they even had that line in there where they were like, you know, when they were practicing and, you know, doing stuff in the kill house or whatever it was.

Yeah. They were like, you know, you can, you know, shoot him with the rubber bullets or whatever they were using anywhere on his body except for his hands. And I was like, okay, so you know that like this could end really badly and that you guys could be responsible for like messing up the rest of this guy's career. But like you didn't take it this step further and think, well, maybe everything that we're doing with him here has the risk of doing that. Like, that was stunning to me. Yeah, I mean, I thought that the connection that they made between Tiger's training and his father and essentially, like, this being a way for him to grapple with his father's passing was fascinating. The movie itself, the documentary, I think, compresses a lot of stuff.

Like, I remember a lot of this past decade up until, you know, his most recent comeback for the masters, just being full of lots of false starts. I think this documentary makes it seem like it was a much smoother process of like he was gone. And then there was this video of him getting ready again. And then he was back after rehab. I felt like I remember a lot more like Tiger is, Tiger had to leave after trying to practice like a practice round. Do you remember it more like that?

Yeah. Honestly, I feel like there's an entire documentary that could be done on his 2015 alone. Like they hinted at it with, you know, the chipping yips that he had and all of those kinds of issues, but they, that I thought could have spent a lot, we could have spent a lot more time with. And also, they didn't really mention the back fusion surgery until after they talked about his arrest. And I remember when he had that back fusion surgery, they were bringing in all these athletes who had had it before and said, like, this ended my career. Like, this was, this was it. I remember, you know, they're being maybe a big piece on ESPN or somewhere where

they had interviewed three or four former athletes who had to do something similar. And they were Like there's no way he comes back from this because like this is how it messed up my back. This is how, you know, it changed my life. And then all of a sudden like, you know, we see a little bit in there like the clips of him chipping and the drive that he tweeted out and stuff like that. But like you said, it was so condensed into this one quick timeline that, you know, there was really a sense of like around the golf community that like every time there was hope it would come crashing back. down. And we didn't really see any of that in the documentary. It was like, and there was this compulsion for a few years, a few years that we've been working together too, where it was like, well, should you, should you write about tiger going into this tournament? Like, should you be like

a tiger kind of everything is still about tiger? And then we'd be like, we knew he wasn't really going to be competitive. In fact, it didn't really feel that way until the masters. And I got to say, like just even the footage that they did have of the masters of in 19 and the way that they depict that, I like the hair on my arm stood up. Yeah. Oh, I cried again. I cry every time. Every time I watched footage of that, I cry. But it was, you know, that walkup 18, every time they flash over to his mom, I just, I lose it. Yeah. But the other thing they didn't talk about almost at all was his win in the tour championship. Right. Like, like that was the big thing, the big, he's back and can actually win on this tour,

like playing with the best of the best. And like, they show the crowd following him and everything. But like that is something that I really wanted more of. Like how, you know, pro, other pros felt about that day,

what it was like for them to watch it. Like, all that kind of stuff. The shot of Kepka, when Kepka's on the T and everybody's losing it about Tiger's Putt and Kepka like leaves the tea to go look. It's just like,

that was such an amazing moment. It was really, really one of the cool. sports moments I've ever witnessed. And you know, you get some stuff with Rocco mediate and with Faldo. I thought, we need to talk about Rocco a little bit. Let's do it. Let's do it. He was my MVP of the second half of this stuff. He's great. And I think that that's one thing that the, if you're not going to have Tiger, I think one thing that this documentary really misses his other, his other contemporaries. And I guess there is like obviously the unwritten rule like, this is the last

dance thing. Jordan does it. Jordan says, okay, we're going to do this. And first of all, I would love to have seen Tiger doing the iPad thing when any other golfer was like, I thought I had him. And Tiger was like he didn't have me. You know what I mean? But I

felt like this documentary was missing the voices of some of Tiger's peers. I very much agree. And one thing going along with that was Phil was missing almost entirely, except for I think they talked about him in relationship to one of the master's wins.

And, you know, to reference the fact that Tiger's mom, like, called him fat, you know, for fun, which is just brutal. But, yeah, that was, that was like a really, really big hole for me is that whole Tiger Phil, you know, Southern California rivalry. Well, in Tiger's mind, rivalry and then professional rivalry. I thought that could have, we could have spent a lot more time on that. But I was very happy to have Rocco. brief appearance and this has unhinged fake phone call with the devil appearance. I really needed that. So any, what are you some final thoughts? What were like some of your favorite moments that we didn't get a chance to talk about here? I thought, uh, there was this one Wright Thompson line

that where he was talking about the relationship between Earl and Tiger and called it Dr. Frankenstein and his monster. Yeah. And I thought that was like a really apt way to think of it that I'd never, you know, had never crossed my mind before, but it really was, like when they were discussing the fact that, you know, Tiger never really got to grow up as a human being. He just kind of grew up as a machine. I thought that was like a really fitting metaphor for him. Yeah, I thought, um, the way that the documentary at the end of the second episode started to really trace what was happening to him in the current moment all the way back to him being on like the Mike Douglas show with his dad was pretty amazing. And I think,

thought, if anything, it was almost like a tease. Like I wish, I wish it had felt like a little bit more momentous. Was there any character or any moment that you saw in the documentary, or it didn't see that you think, I mean, I think you mentioned that 2015 could be a, a documentary of its own. Were there any other moments that you wish were expanded upon? Well, and this kind of goes back to me wishing that I had more time with this. I would have loved to have seen more about his relationship with his kids. And granted, this is all, you know, super fresh. Like, his tournament with Charlie was just like a month ago and, you know, all of that kind of stuff. But I feel like the way he deals with Charlie is a really good juxtaposition for how his dad

dealt with him. Like, Tiger's very protective over Charlie, not, you know, letting him really give media interviews, like his first major appearance was in this tournament where his dad was there with him. And I just find it really, really fascinating that, going from, you know, Tiger who is out there on national television when he was two and is now trying to kind of protect his son in that way, I think is really interesting. And it's something, if they do end up doing something larger than even this on Tiger in the future is something I would really be interested in learning more about. I think I was, I found myself actually fascinated by the National Inquirer stuff and would be

really into a large scale National Inquirer doc because some of the, the, the, sort of methods that that place engages in that we're just like, oh yeah, that's just like, that's normal catch and release. Like I, I thought that that crazy guy with the bow tie who was just like, I just followed Tiger around and like, you know, picked up the tampon of his lover. And I was just like, this is, this is wild. Like I, so a National Inquirer doc, I think, would be pretty incredible, especially if it was built around this story that they obviously played a huge part in impressing the matter. And like the fact that he does the, men's fitness cover because it's owned by the same company that owns National Enquirer and they

basically do a trade. It's, it was really harrowing. And then they sent someone to Australia to track him and Rachel. To follow Rachel. Yeah. That was wild too. Yeah, I agree with you. I think that would be a really bad thing. And that pre, that's right immediately before Tiger gives Eelan the phone to talk to Rachel so that Rachel can explain what she was doing in Australia and how she's not having an affair of Tiger. Wild. Well, Megan, thank you so much for joining. me to talk about Tiger episode two. We'll have more TV concierge this week.