The Prestige TV Podcast - Breaking Down 'Wednesday' Episodes 5-8

Episode Date: December 6, 2022

Joanna and Charles return to make sense of the final four episodes of the Netflix show 'Wednesday' and to see what they can look forward to in a potential second season. Hosts: Charles Holmes and Joanna Robinson Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Find Ollie Sleep Solutions for the Whole Family at Ali.com. That's OLLLY.com. Welcome to the Prestige TV podcast to show made up of the most lovable highs. You know I'm Charles Holmes. And today I'm joined by Joanna Robinson to discuss the Netflix hit Wednesday. We have already debated, hotly debated, the first four episodes, but we're back to talk about the last four. Joanna, are you ready to let your hide out on this episode? Hell yes.

Like, let's cue up the legally blonde. Light up the crypt. Let's go. Let's do it. Wait, really quickly. Yeah. On a scale from 1 to 10. Yeah, yeah.

If you met, like, a significant other who was trying to woo you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're wooing, yeah. On a scale from 1 to 10, what grade would you give them if they picked legally blonde as the first movie that you're going to say? Well, right, but it's a joke because he's like, I'm going to show you a scary movie. And then it was like Reese Witherspoon and she's like, this is horrifying. Oh, I get that.

But like, what would your joke movie be that someone would show you that be like, this person knows me? Oh, wow. This person knows how like horrified I would be by something. Because like, isn't it fun to go on a date and just like make fun of something together, which I think is what evil Tyler was going. It's always a Tyler. I don't know. I think my, I think if,

like, the way that Wednesday sees legally blonde is the way that I see the film American Psycho. So it's not like making fun of it, but it's just sort of like, like, I'm sorry, but,

she thinks El Woods is Patrick Bateman. That's who she thinks El Woods is. So I would watch American Psycho. How about you? To all, to all the people out there, if you are on a date with somebody who willingly shows you American Psycho

on the first date, run. That sounds really fun to me. Run. call me in a crypt. Well, I don't even know. What was yours? What's yours?

Oh, man. It would have to be some type of musical, probably. It would definitely be a musical. Oh, like you hate a musical? I don't like musicals at all. Okay. But we're friends. It's okay.

Sorry. It's one of my worst takes ever. But let's pick the worst musical. Because I like, I like musicals, but I can recognize this. Dear Evan Hanson. Dear Evan Hanson, is what you should be. watching. I saw Dear Evan Hansen in theaters and I was just like never again. Like never again. But wouldn't that be really fun to watch and make fun of? I think that's a way better answer than mine,

which is a bad answer. My answer is Dear Evan Hansen. Yeah, it's a really good one. But we are, our hides have already come out. We're here. We're talking about Wednesday created by Alfred Gough and Miles Millar, creators of Smallville. Executive produced by Tim Burton, who directed the first four episodes for, but for this new batch, we have Ganges Montero and James Marshall. This show is based on the Adams family by Charles Adams. In this four episode batch, we get more into the mystery, all right? So a lot of things come to ahead. Gomez is arrested for a suspicion of killing Garrett Gates 32 years ago during Parents Weekend at Nevermore before Wednesday and Mortisha revealed that the Gates family was actually poisoned. Wednesday learns more about her connection

to her ancestor, Goody Adams, who she's connected to, and inherits her vision powers from. Then, Wednesday finds out that Marilyn Thornhill is actually Laurel Gates, as she's been the master of Tyler's Hyde, which is a monster manifestation. He inherited from his mom who also went to Nevermore Academy.

Laurel and the Gates family are descendants of crackstone. Laurel revives Crackstone and wants to use him to eradicate the outcast. And then there's a big CGI fight. I was like listing all of those things and I was just like, oh, there's a lot of show in this.

show. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of show of this show. First reactions to the last four episodes of Wednesday. I will say it's a mystery show. This show is kind of frustrating to me because I feel like the mystery answer was telegraphed really early. And I'm not like that mad about that. I feel like casting Christina Ricci is like one of those casting spoilers. You know what I mean?

Where you're like, Christina Ritchie's not showing up to be like Professor Sprout at Hogwarts. Right? And then Tyler, I mean, honestly, I don't want to spoil Veronica Mars, but Veronica Mars turned it to me to be very suspicious of Tyler from the beginning. So, like, yeah, so it was a mystery show. And that's okay. But to our earlier point in last episode where we talked about Wednesday being good at everything, there was one too many moments where she went on a dramatic monologue accusing the wrong person of being the killer. where I'm like, I can't watch you do this again. It's like Ricky Linholm.

It's boring painter boy. It's like, who does she have that she's going to like dramatically accuse of being the killer and being wrong? So I'm all for someone on a journey and I'm all for someone not like Mary suing their way through, I actually don't believe in that phrase, quarter flipping their way through life. But I was just like, Veronica Mars might falsely accuse one person in a season. But she's not going to, like, do three people back to back. Yeah. I mean, I will say it was very funny when Wednesday kidnaps Xavier.

It starts torturing him. And all the kids are like, whoa, this is what we signed up for. And I'm like, no, this is the Wednesday show I signed up for. Right. Wednesday. I won't leave a mark. She says she gets her hammer out. So I will say that if I was charmed by the first four,

episodes, which weren't very mystery-heavy. I was out on the last four episodes in a way where I was just like, the mystery is the least interesting part of this entire story for me. And I think a large part of it is like, because the hide, which is this monster that honestly, I don't know what the design team was thinking, but just does not look good on my screen or any screen. And he's great. I was like, the mystery is so much wrapped up in who is the hide, where I was just like, I don't care. The hide looks dumb.

It looks like, no, it's just like, stop. Go back to Wednesday, like, being kooky and arguing with her mom. Like, I don't give a fuck about the hide. Something I will say. So, like, Xavier, his paintings to the hide looked way cooler and spookier than the fucking dumb hide itself. Well, also that is the real thing about Xavier's paintings is like, are they, thing that I felt was very, very

funny. The reason I knew immediately obviously Xavier is not the hide is that the show does this thing where Wednesday walks into the barn where Xavier's been painting these paintings of the hide. She's like, oh, this ain't looking good. And then like Xavier keeps doing

shit that I'm just like, dude, you can tell the writer's writing they're just like, we want you to believe it, Xavier. And I'm just like, if I'm Xavier, I'm just like, I'm staying away. Like, me filling up a barn of this monster and all of these people who are being murdered and also painting the woman I have a crush on that plays her cello at night is just a bunch of creepy shit where I'm just like, who's making these decisions?

Why would you keep doing stuff that would implicate you in this murder? Just stop. Can you just draw, like, flowers in your sketchbook? That was when I was starting to be like, all right, guys. We're putting our foot on the pedal of we want you to. believe it to. The way that Thing was like shipping Xavier and Wednesday, the way the thing like pulled the canvas off the like stalker portrait that he made of her was like get a lot of this

Wednesday. Isn't this romantic? And I'm like, ooh, is it? He made a gif of you. I don't like it. Yeah. Thing was very matchmakery. The thing is like, thing is incredible.

the way that they used like a real guy's hand versus just like doing some dumb CG thing was fantastic. Like thing was so good and all the little like gestures and like what's that lassie? Timmy's down a well with thing? Like all of that,

all of that worked for me. Thing? He's the best second best actor on this after Jenna or Atega in my opinion. It's Jenna and then it's Thing. You know and I don't know if you've seen the behind the scenes photos

of the guy thing. And he's like blue stocking body suit with just the hand exposed. Pretty great. So yeah, thing was incredible. I just want to say. Can we talk about the thing that, the thing that I like, there's things a lot that I liked.

Can I talk about the thing that I hated the most? If you are not, okay, so Hummer Boy who's in a coma, he has two moms. Great stuff. But other than that, no queer representation on this show. Instead, we've decided in the year of our Lord 2022 to do a werewolf conversion therapy queer metaphor thing with Eden. When I'm like, guys, we don't have to queer code things anymore. We can just make characters queer instead. So, like, Edith's parents, mom showing up of being like, you're going to go to like a cathrope conversion therapy camp.

I was like, get this out of here. Get it out of here. Wait, so I have a question. The reason also it just, it's bad, get it out of here, but it's also bad because it doesn't make sense. Because Enid wants to become a werewolf. It is actually something that she is like very self-conscious of the fact that like it has not happened for her. Yeah.

Yeah. So to send her to like this conversion therapy for something that she wants makes zero sense. It's not like she, the problem is it's not happening. and she wants it to happen faster. Like, it makes complete sense if this is like a metaphor for puberty. Of course. Everybody's gone through people's like,

when is it going to happen? The minute you make it about like her sexuality, I'm just like, no, this doesn't, no, you wouldn't send her to get up for the thing that she wants to do. This is dull. Yeah, because like, let's replace werewolfism with being gay, right?

Let's just do it because that's what they're asking. That's what they're biting with the storyline, right? Okay. So Eden's like, wow. I haven't figured out how to be, my whole family's gay. I haven't figured out how to be gay yet, but I would like to be gay. And her mom's like, I need you to be gay so much that I'm going to send you to conversion therapy gay camp. But she's like, no, dude, I don't want to go to conversion therapy gay camp even though I want to be gay.

And then her dad's like, good job, little one. I always knew that you could resist gayness if you wanted to. Yeah, it was. You do you, he said. And I was like, what are we talking about? This is the worst idea. I cannot believe it made it into the show. I like Dean it in general, but like this story was terrible.

If we're letting our inner Wednesdays out, I'm going to talk about the thing that I loathe the most about. Great. This is Back-F, which is, yeah, what is with these love interests? Tyler, Xavier, like, here's the thing. Like, I grew up on the height, the crack of bad boy, bad white boys in my TV, the Damans. the Jesses from Gilmore girls. Just the guy just like, oh, man. The crem de la creme of bad white boys

that your parents don't watch your date. Tell her, Xavier, I'm just like, you're giving me nothing. You're literally giving me less than nothing to the point where I was just like, it totally made sense to me why, like, everybody was falling head over heels for Wednesday. She's good at everything.

She doesn't care. Blah, blah, blah. She's hot, yeah. I could not, for the life of me, understand what Wednesday's, saw in Tyler, there was no chemistry. I was like, even when they kissed, I'm like, what is happening? This is, no, this makes no sense.

The only moment where that kid, like, popped is that one moment in the police station where he's like, what does it feel like to lose? You know what I mean? And you're just sort of like, yeah. And then that's it. And I just didn't even like get to do more fun villainy shit like that. You know what I mean? It's just really just the one, like, what does it feel like to lose?

And I'm like, yeah, give me this, the bad boy shit. And then he's just sort of like, I'm her slave. I don't know. I'm here to do this. So I totally agree. And that was the point where I was like, oh, no, that's the more interesting show. If Wednesday is actually attracted to somebody who is just as smart as her and outsmarting her at every turn. I'm like, that is actually the interesting show because that would be someone who, like, everything we know about Wednesday, she is attracted to, you know, dark.

brooding, everything that he was in that moment. And I'm like, this doesn't, even Xavier, I was like, what is his role in the show? There's not any chemistry

between him and Wednesday. He's complaining all the time. He's just a, like he's a bore. Like, why? I just didn't understand what Xavier's role was. I love when Bianca was like, fuck you.

Where he was like, take your necklace off and make me forget her. She's like, oh my God. I was just like, go off, Bianca. I actually, I mean, like, to our earlier conversation about Bianca and also the mayor's son, like, both of them are on a journey. And like, you know, Bianca is like a hero.

And the mayor's son is like a hero by the end of the season. So like that critique of like all the black characters being mean holds for the first half or first two thirds of the season for sure. And I will say when Bianca's mom shows up and we find out that there's like a siren-based cult Oh, you hated it? I'm like interested. I'm interested in siren Scientology.

You don't want season two to be siren Scientology because I kind of do. You don't want it? Not only do I not want it to happen. I was just like the mom who doesn't care about her child coming back and it's like, my siren calls, feminine wiles are disappearing.

Now it's your turn. Young lady, I was just like, no, don't do this. But I will, talking about Bianca, I started to think that Bianca as a character shined at the dance, the Raven Dance, where it's like, they, it was the moment where I'm just like, actually the darker, more edgier version of this show would have been like, why the fuck do we care about Xavier or Tyler? They are shit. Like, they don't, like, why do we even have any feelings for them?

They are boring. We are hot. Let's be best friends. Like, that was the version of the show that I was like, I want to watch that. And that's kind of, I mean,

like, not to keep bringing things back to Sabrina, which is a show that I didn't even like love that much or was that all that into, but like this show definitely wants to chase chilling adventures of Sabrina. That show also had two really boring male love interests in the middle of the love triangle.

And I'm just like, you can do better. We have seen it. You and I have seen the glory of Damon Salvatore. I've seen the glory that is Spike on Buffy. Like these guys exist. Logan on Veronica Mars. Like these guys. And I mean, that's the thing about Veronica Mars. They really lucked out because Veronica Mars, her original love interest is this guy named Duncan. He was such a potato person. Like a really, really boring, handsome dude. And then they brought in Logan, who was not ever supposed to be a love interest. And they're like, oh, oops. He just like is spruce. Fouting, you know, chemistry everywhere, like just sparks everywhere. Oh, he's our main love interest now, you know? And so, like, my hope is that for season two, Wednesday, they find someone who is just way better and they just forget about Xavier. They're just sort of like, that was a mistake. We fucked up.

That kid's really boring with love and respect to him. He's a good-looking kid, so he'll be fine. But, like, that kid's really boring. We found someone who's actually interesting. We're being so mean to Xavier, but this is the Wednesday pod. we're allowed to do it. Don't yell at us. It's a boring character,

boringly portrayed. And I wish that young man well. If we go off on a little bit of a tangent, what do you think it is about this latest crop of like, we just saw interview with The Vampire, a show that is like just tripping with sex appeal and just like going for it in a way that reminded me of like the 90s WB shows of your in terms of just like,

oh yeah, we're like, yeah, it's there. with Wednesday, I was wondering, like, why, it seems like they want it at some points. They, like, Wednesday kisses Tyler. They want this tension, but there is this lack of any, even for, like, a Y, like, teenage show. It doesn't have even the Riverdale thing where I'm like, oh, I get it. When they're all, like, when they're in the love triangle, I'm just like, I get it. I get Archie. I get Veronica.

I get Betty. There's tension. I can see it always. Jughead. Jughead. they make sexy Jughead. And this, I'm just like... Sexy Jughead is a key component of Pervertale.

Let's be clear. I don't know. I feel like we need some, like, Y.A. show scholars on this. I mean, like, I've watched everything. So I... But, like, that's the thing. It's like, I feel like casting directors,

again, they really crush it with the adults in the show. But I feel like... I felt a similar thing about Willa. I'm not going to make you talk about Willow right now, but there's, like, a lot of good-looking, uninteresting teens. I'm like,

I'm like, teens don't have to be this uninteresting. Like, it doesn't have to be like this. Teens are mean to each other. Like, they're wild people that we don't understand. Like,

put that on screen. Euphoria has shown us that probably more than we need. Euphoria. And like, the thing, like, euphoria is such a good example

because I can't remember the name of that actor. It's like, Ethan, something. But like, you know what I'm talking about, like, the nice kid on Euphoria.

Ethan, I think his name is Ethan, the one who does the dance, the musical. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, if that actor had played Tyler, this is such a better show. You get it. Immediately. Yeah. That kid's great. Yeah. That kid's great, and you get it. You know what I mean? And so, like, those kids exist.

They're out there. It's not like they don't exist. I just feel like casting directors are not thinking beyond, like, how will this look? And I'm like, you know. Well, I also think there is a difference where I'm just like, Genoa Ortega is like 20, whereas like I don't know what the ages of the other high school characters are, but they look young,

where it's like euphoria for as much as like, we can debate how realistic euphoria is. It is very fun. I'm like, these are adult. Like, Zendai is in, like, these are all adult. Or I'm just like, high school is the setting, but it allows them to like be a little bit more. The actor plays Tyler is 20.

That's a whole ass man Wait Tyler Wait whoa I thought you met Ethan Tyler on the show is 28 Tyler I just exploded your theory Wait what? Just destroyed it yeah He's 28

Xavier's 21 Does he have Tom Hollanditis Like what is that? He's 28 Good for you man Good for you So, okay, wait, can I tell you my favorite tricksy part of the mystery? Okay?

So they're trying to throw you off the set by being like, hides. By the way, hides sounds like it's like a number on the anagram. They're like, they're artistic. They're ENFP. Anyway, they're like, they're like, they're like, they're like, they're like, they're like, Hyde's an artist. But then you're like, oh, but wait, Tyler makes full. Lottet Art. He is also an artist.

Tyler dramatically lit a crypt for a movie date. Tyler put the ganache on her birthday cake. He is also artistic. So he is the hide. I was just like, okay, I guess. I mean, it was also this weird thing where like Tyler gets, his master is like the Marilyn Thornhill part. And the actual part that I thought was interesting

where it's like, obviously, I feel bad for Tyler. He didn't have a lot to work with. But every single time he was in a scene with his dad, it was just like, why don't you care about mom? Why don't you talk about mom anymore? Mama, mama, mom. And then for Marilyn Thornell to be like,

I'll be your mommy. I'm just like, this is the funny. They should have just, but like, why don't they make it more fucked up like that? Why didn't they give us like that really fucked up mommy dynamic from Christina Ritchie? You know she could have done it. This was Riverdale.

This was literally the first season of Riverdale. Archie just being like, I miss my mommy. Oh, music teacher. Let's have sex. That was the entire first season of Riverdale where I'm just like, no, that's interesting. Him just having so many mommy issues, he's like, I turn into a monster. I'm like, that's fascinating. So, like, that's, I mean, that's a thing is like, you know, it all originates from, of course I'm going to say this, but it all originates from Buffy, right?

This idea of like high school is literally hell. Yeah. You know, the bullies and the bad boyfriends and blah blah are literal monsters. Like that's what Buffy sort of originated, right? And everyone is repeating that and repeating that throughout. But if you're unwilling to engage in the actual darkness that comes with that, then you're just giving me like hot topic goth, right? You know, instead of like the actual dark, gnarly, we have monsters.

because, like, who, nobody dies. I mean, Gwendolyn Christie dies. I mean, it seemed like she was like, y'all got me for one season. Like, she was great. Y'all got to write me out. The telekinesis kid dies. But I was just like when it seemed like a B-boy was maybe going to die, I was like, are they going to do it?

They're going to kill a B-boy. Wait, can I just say something that, like, is, in my house, household, it is, it is often a war zone because I'm constantly throwing off zingers, da, da, da, da. But the most brutal thing my girlfriend will do is any single time there's a character who's like the nerdiest character on a TV show that we're watching. She said that's you. She saw Eugene for the first time and she's like, that's you. And I was like, what?

And I'm just like, why? And she's just like, I don't know. He just has your energy. And I was just like, like, I was so hurt. Like, I was like, that's his show. I'm out. I'm just done. So funny.

We're supposed to be a team. Start texting you and start taking photos of these characters and texting them. That's you. Listen, Eugene's a hero. Okay. Homer stick together. I love when he just like directs a swarm of bees. Just sort of like take down Christina Reggie.

No, that was when I was like, I'm done. Like, I literally was just like. For me, it was when Wednesday, Adams, an incredible character, steps in front of an arrow to save Xavier the least interesting character on this show. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound terseptide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity. Or some adults with overweight who also have

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Oh, okay. But I want to do ask you, like, to your point, is it weird that Wednesday is a character that loves the macabre, loves sadness, loves everything that is supposedly bad for you, where is the more interesting version of this show, Wednesday learning that the bad boy, essentially, the Damon is maybe not actually the type of relationship that is best suited to her, where it's like this is just like,

this is doing the very buffy thing where it's just like your first kiss from your first boyfriend, he's actually a monster. That's how we all feel. Like it's doing that thing where I'm just like, what if it like subverted that and being like, oh no, like there's the like the, Like the asshole is the asshole from the beginning

And it's something that she's so utterly fascinated with. But then she says that. Here's the thing. If you're going to do the Buffy thing where you're like, my boyfriend's a monster. Please then don't have your character be like, I should have known the first boy ever kissed was a serial killer monster.

I was like, also the voiceover gets really heavy at the end. It's very Veronica Mars, very exo exo, exo gossip girl. and I just don't think you need it in all of this. And I think, I'll tell you what got me, like, relationship-wise. And again, I'm not necessarily queer shipping them, but, like, the hug between Enid and Wednesday at the end. Like, that really got me. I thought that was really sweet and lovely. But to your earlier point in the last episode we did, when Enid Wolf's Out for the first time.

First time. Never whooped out before. Wolfs out for the first time. We knew it was coming to the finale. Great. She wolfs out. She's got little purple fur, like, whatever. She has to fight Tyler, the Hyde, who has been brutally killing people for a while now.

And Wednesday's like, looks like you got it. Bye. And just leaves her. With giggling. So she's like, peace out. You're good. You got this. I don't know what Wednesday was supposed to do.

But I just, like, wouldn't. I would be like, oh, yeah, my roommate's, this is her first time we're wolfing out. She's doing it. Bye. What? Like, anyway. It doesn't make sense because a couple episodes before I mean it's pissed at Wednesday

for abandoning her friends. Like she's just like, you have a problem. Like you don't, like you don't worry about anybody but yourself. And then at the final fight, she's just like, yeah, you can beat his ass. Like, I got to go kill the zombie pilgrim. I was just like,

no, no, no, no, no, no, that's undercutting everything. But to your point, when they hug, I was like, oh, no, that's the show because... That's the show, yeah. This is a character who doesn't like physical affection, doesn't like any type of affection. And I believe there's an earlier scene where, like, Enid is trying to, like, show physical affection for this friendship. And Wensi's like, I don't want this. So finally, when you see Jenna, and Jenna Ortega is such a great actress, the way she looks

in her face. this finally, like the Wednesday of these eight episodes breaks. And she's like, no, I want this. Like, I actually need this. This is something after all of this has happened. I need somebody to just love me. I was like, oh, no, that is actually what we've been waiting for. It's just been lost under so much stuff.

If you weren't such a musicals hater, this would be the time of the podcast when I would talk about how this is the core story of the seminal musical Wicked. where Elfaba, the green-skinned wicked witch, is roommates with Galinda, who is pink and blonde and bubbly. And then they, like, find common ground and a deep friendship. They just did Wicked. They did Wicked and Harry Potter, Percy Jackson, and Veronica Barr's and Buffy. And it's like, it's fine to borrow from all this stuff that is, like, so core and elemental. But if you're not then doing, like, taking it one step further, then all, like,

I'm seeing are the references, and I'm not seeing the, like, you know, the what makes you, you, I mean, I'm not a huge Smallville person, but that first season of Smallville, like, really has something, you know? And so, like, I know that Gothamilar, like, have this in them. And so I would love for them in season two to sort of stop playing the hits and, and go a little deeper. And also, maybe Xavier, maybe Xavier dies right at the beginning. You hate Xavier.

I mean, I hate that kid. So how do you... How do we feel... How do you die is when the beginning and that's the mystery. Who killed Xavier? Oh, and that actually I would be out for. Great.

Enter the new hottie of the year. Uh-huh. They honestly, if they just want to... Because I was like, today I was just like, I could get rid of the supernatural murder of it all. Just like if they kill off the hottie, like just like, kill off somebody every... And just like, new hottie for Wednesday.

Every single. But I want to do... I do want to talk about the twist. Because... How effective are they? Because we get the Xavier's the high, but he's not. Wait, actually, it's Tyler. Then Marilyn Thornhill fix her own death.

She's actually a gate. She's been controlling Tyler. She resurrects Crackstone, who, when I saw the resurrected Crackstone, I was just like, we are in full Disney Channel, original movie territory in terms of like this show. Where I was like, there were so many twists in this where I'm like, for this to be effective, I would either A, have to be surprised or B, care. And I didn't, I didn't at all. I was just like, oh, yeah, sure.

Like, I was just like, I knew to your point that Tyler was to hide for a while. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Also, why are they just lopping random body parts off of people to reanimate the corpse of this original racist? Like, why aren't they, like, what I think would have been cool? Now I'm just going to rewrite the show Nobody asked me to. What I think would be cool is if they had to take body parts

from like the founding people, descendants from the original families of this racist town or whatever. And it's like we're killing off these very, you need the seven founding families. We need a body part from all of them to reanimate the corpse of this original racist. Just put rando feet in jars.

I'm just sort of like, what are we doing here? What is this magic? I don't know. Well, I didn't understand it. as well because to your point, I was just like, oh, maybe they need the different body parts to, like, they need a body to put him in or something like that. But they're like, no, they just need the energy from these random body parts. And I was like, okay. They're like a half face, you know, two thumbs. Similarly, in the last episode, we've been,

they basically make Wednesday Adams, Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker figure, who she's been the key all along. And I'm like, fine. And then Goody Adams comes back. And I'd laugh at this part where her mom gives her like a necklace that's supposed to out with her visions. And then Goody basically is just like, all right, yeah, we need the necklace. And then once he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, my mom tells me he's supposed to help with my vision. He's like, no, no, no, no, no, forget about that, forget about that. It also helps you heal. She's like, just goes to her.

It's like, what is happening on this show? Like, what is this? So Wednesday. Are we being mean? Are we being too critically, like, mean about this? I did think it was very funny. I think it's a fun-fine show. And I just, I think I just won't remember most of it by the time season two rolls around.

I didn't feel like a ton of it was memorable. I just think Jenna Ortega's great. I hope she does a million things after this. Fuck, I hope she's on season four of Euphoria. Like, I hope she does whatever she wants to do. I hope she isn't stuck just as Wednesday forever. I think she should be a huge massive star.

I think there's something wrong with liking Wednesday. I think it's fun and fine. It's just sort of like fun and fine. Whereas like maybe it could be great if it wanted to be. If you have someone, if you have someone, yeah, if you have someone so talented at the center of it.

Yeah. You know what I mean? And like I love a lot of, I want to shout out some of the cost of me because we talked about how it's very burtony, but I love everything Wednesday wears when she's not in her school uniform. She's wearing these, like, big

got got these, like, big, fuck-off boots. She's got her, like, knitted black and white sweaters under her, like, black, whatever. Like, I thought all of that stuff was... The dress to the Raven, I was just like, this is amazing. Like, I love... To your point, there's a lot to love about

this show. I think it's a different... It's in the Netflix mold. I think it is the type of show where it's, like, If I did not have to talk about it, I would have been like, entertaining. Like, cool. When you have to pick it apart, you're like, oh, okay, so a bunch of this doesn't make sense. And the biggest one of those is like the final CGI battle, I was like, to your point, I'm like, is this Percy Jackson? Is this Harry Potter?

Like, this is not the show that I've been watching. It's not even the show that I want where I'm like, why is Wednesday fighting this magic zombie Pilgrim. Why is that the thing that finally solves all of the problems? And it was weird because throughout, maybe this is a long story that are trying to tell, but like, throughout through all these warnings of like, your

visions can be unpredictable. They weren't. They were all accurate. Be careful. Be careful of your power. Your need for vengeance. It can consume you the way that it did Goody Adams. She never seemed a danger of being consumed by her visions. Your powers

can make you unhinged the way that they did row in at the beginning of the season, that just never seemed to be a risk for Wednesday. Like, you know, so I think those warnings, again, maybe it's a long game that they're playing and that's like a season three storyline

or something like that. But I just, yeah, I will say there was a moment that I actually loved in the final episode when Christina Ritchie's character, Thornehill, is like, okay, you got to go do this and do this.

And the zombie pilgrim was like, shut your mouth woman. And she's like, and Christina Ritchie tosses off a pretty elegant, like, never meet your heroes. But I was just sort of like, I was like,

yeah, yeah, the zombie, like, symbol of the patriarchy would not give a shit about what a woman has to tell him about anything. I was like, that was a good,

that was a good moment. So what would, what would you, like to see in a second season? What worked about this season where you're just like double down on this? This is actually like the heart of the show.

I think it should be like Enon, if it needs to be solve crimes. And like the story I like to tell, I don't think I've ever told you this story, I think. But like I remember being at TCA's

the Television Critic Association Road Show thing where Roberto Aguirsakasa, who is the showrunner of Riverdale and also the head of RJ Comics. I told the story very recently, so I hope it wasn't to you. But, like, he was shopping the show and he was trying to get it made, and nobody wanted an Archie show.

And Greg Berlanti was like, hey, man, why don't you put a dead body in it? And then all of a sudden, people want it, and that's how Riverdale was born. So, like, this idea of, like, why don't you put a dead body in it is what a lot of creators are, like, we need to have a mystery. We need to have a dead body. We need to give something, like, that people will be wandering about. So if it's got to be a mystery again in season two, just give me like Enid and Wednesday are on the case. Just the two girl detectives on the case.

RIP Xavier was too hot for this world. You got to go. That's what I want to see. I actually thought the use of Mortisha and Gomez and Pugsley in the season was like a good balance of like they're here, but they're not here at the same time. How about you, Charles? I totally, like, agree with you that, like, I think actually a more grounded mystery

where you don't need a hide in the next, like, you don't need a big, like, multi-generational type mystery. It can just be somebody is dead again at Nevermore or somewhere else. And her and Enid are, like, you know, the hardy women. They're just, like, they're going. Like, and they have their, like, little thing is, like, their Scooby-Doo figure. They're just like, all right, we're solving mysteries.

I also think they need to desperately find their spike. They need to find that character who has that type of charisma. And I'm not just talking about, like, love interest charisma. I'm just talking about, like, bad boy who has as much wattage as Jenna Ortega as Wednesday, somebody who can, I think actually the thing that this season suffered from is that, like, you need somebody who can push back on Wednesday and it can't be an adult. You need another kid who is just as good as her.

The only person who was really like matching her in a lot of scenes is Gwendolyn Christie as Williams. Yes, right? That was it. And so you, you know, and now she's gone. So I was like, no, you were a good part of the show. So yeah, you need that. I think, I mean, I would take a teen

and like the new principles should also hopefully be like You know, just give us more charisma and electricity in this show. And I could be convinced to, like, love it. As it is, I like it. And I'm not mad that I watched it. And I'm certainly not mad I got to talk to you about it. And now I'll just be sending Eugene B memes for the rest of time. No.

Your girlfriend's really given me a gift here, Charles, I have to say. My last question before we depart is we've talked about Jenna Ortega a lot. And it was interesting in an interview at the time, she was very, she was very honest about, you know, the, what it means to be like a Disney Channel star at first. Now, you're not really flexing your acting muscles. And once you got out of that, she's, she was in a great movie. And like, she starts really becoming this, this actress, probably that she's always wanted to be in terms of, like, getting really meaty roles. And how she was a little reticent for Wednesday. And I can kind of see why now, where it's like to your point where she's massively, massively famous. But do we, what do we think the future is for Ortega? Do we think that this is something that, like, she will always be Wednesday now? Or is this something where she can get out of that?

Because, like, it is interesting where it's like she finally got out of the Disney Channel trap. And she's just found her way maybe back into it. And that would be a bummer. Yeah. I mean, I hope she looks to someone like. in Zendaya, who is also a Disney Channel kid and see the possibility. And I really

think these projects are going to start to come to her, as you say. I think that her wattage is so high right now. 10 million followers, you said, I think, on Instagram. 10 million, yeah. Like, you know, and she's got the goods that I think

it could, you know, the story that I think about all the time is someone like Caitlin Dever. Caitlin Dever is doing a lot of great work nowadays, but for years and years and years, she was on that, like, Tim Allen, uh, sitcom. Is it, is it eight simple rules for day? No, that's a different one. Anyway, whatever. So I'm like, really boring Tim Allen sitcom as, like, his daughter. And I felt like she was in jail, in, like, content jail. But she was also collecting her sitcom money. So, like, I can't feel bad for her. But, like, she went from

justified, but she's so good. And then we didn't see her for a while. And now, I mean, she's in dear Evan Hanson, don't hold that against her. But she's in, like, she's in a ton of other stuff. And everything she does, she's so good in. And so for Jenna, I'm hoping that, I mean, Wednesday is a much lower commitment than like 20 episodes of a Tim Allen sitcom every season to do like eight episodes of Wednesday here and there. So I'm just hoping we start to see her crop up like everywhere and hopefully like in a cool 824 thing. And hopefully in, you know, some major directors come calling for her because she's just like she's fucking great. And I hope she's an enormous star. And if this is what it takes to launch her to that next level, like I can't be mad that it exists.

this. I mean, I already brought up Jeremy Allen White, but he comes from the same thing. He was stuck in, like, shameless jail. How shameless is a good show? I didn't say shame as well. Here's a thing. How many seasons? How many seasons? Like, at a certain

point, it's just like, you're getting the checks, but there is a certain level of like, oh, or they're just going to be 30 seasons of shameless, and then that's everything that you've committed to. What's super interesting about Jeremy Allen White on Shameless, and I love loved him.

Lip Gallagher, just the best. So many of those actors left the show, and Jeremy Allen White's like, namaste. Ammaestay. Cameron. Ham leaves, I mean, Rossum leaves, and he's like, Noel Fisher's like, bye. And yeah, you didn't know that I'm a shameless fan, but I am. But yeah, I didn't need to run as long as it did, for sure. And I'm really excited that Jeremy Allen White, like, broke out in The Bear this year.

and so, like, is going to get to do a lot of other things. Because he's extremely, extremely talented. Hmm. Yeah. Jenna Ortega, you can do Wednesday forever, Jenna Ortega. I won't be mad about it as long as you do other things as well. Then that's great. You're a star.

Now, Jenna, do whatever you want. I'm just, you made Wednesday. You carried it, like, on your back, quite literally. I had fun watching it. And here's the thing. It is actually very very. very, very cosmically right, in my opinion, that we watched a show called Wednesday that is about a woman who would have been a great, great music, TV, or movie critic who hates everything. And we seem to have reserved feelings about Wednesday.

That's how it should be, you know? I think Wednesday I would hate Wednesday in the show. 100%. Perfect place to end this podcast. Thank you so much to Joanna. Make sure you check out Joanna on White Lerner. it is a show that I have not watched, but it's on my list. She will be talking about

White Lotus with Bill Simmons. That's already up, right? Yeah, have you heard of Bill Simmons? Yeah, yeah. He and I talked about White Lotus every week. And, yeah, thank you guys so much for listening. Thank you to Steve Allman for producing. And we will be back to give you more TV prestige.

Goodness.