The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Bridgerton’ Season 2 Episodes 5-8

Episode Date: March 29, 2022

Juliet and Jodi rejoin to discuss the final four episodes of 'Bridgerton's' second season. They ask and answer the biggest questions they had at the end of the season including where they go from here and thoughts on hooking up in a gazebo. Hosts: Juliet Litman and Jodi Walker Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay. Welcome to the Prestige TV podcast. I'm Juliet Litman. I'm here with Jody Walker. Jody, hello. Hello, Juliet. We are here to talk about the back half

of Bridgetton's season two, episodes five through eight. But really, we're going to talk about the whole season because we have to. And to do so, we are going to ask 10 big questions to sort through how we're feeling on all of it. Jody, are you ready?

I'm ready. I'm officially a Cantonese shipper, and I'm ready to talk about it. It's got it. All right. Question number one. It's really two questions, but who cares? What is your final verdict on season one versus season two? What did you like? What did you miss? Let's start with the beginning of that. What's your final verdict? Did you like it? Oh, yeah. I had a great time. I really liked it. I think, like, you know, probably the more central question here is, is do you like it more than season one? And it's hard to even say that because it really felt so different. Like, we were in the same

world. Everyone is still wearing like the same large quantity of clothing at all times, except when they're not. But the relationship, I think the central relationship felt so different. Certainly one thing that I liked more about season two is that I think the chemistry between Kate and Antony is like undeniable, jumps off the screen, the actors have great chemistry. And then as far as what did I miss, we've kind of addressed this in the last pod. But what I, what I, what I didn't miss that I was worried I would miss was the Duke. I think they, I think they went a long way. That was the big question heading into season two. It was like, will he miss the Duke? Is that a problem? People were shocked he wasn't coming back. But I think that you, I love season two.

I strongly prefer it to season one. Okay. Tell me about why. I think there's, yeah, there's a lot of reasons why to that. You got it this. Like, seasons one and two feel so different even though we're in the same world. But season one felt more like a, will this work? We're not sure it's a Netflix miniseries. Let's see how it goes. Whereas season two felt much more familiar to me as like a network drama. And I think we'll get into this later. But I think as a result of that feeling, it kind of was like the best of both worlds. First of all, I was stunned. I was stunned. I was shunned by myself. That's a real word. So I can't, I can't use it. Anyway, I was- You can do whatever you want. We're in Regency London here. You're right.

I was shocked by the length of these episodes. Several are over one hour. And that is super. That's the benefit of streaming, of course. But at the same time, I got the beats of the season and therefore the beats of each episode really felt familiar to me.

And I love network TV. I love melodramas. I felt like season two really felt like kind of the best of Grey's Anatomy meets One Tree Hill meets Netflix. And like to someone else, maybe that sounds like an insult, but to me, that's like the highest compliment. I could possibly pay a show. And I don't, and you know, I also think that Graze at the beginning was a really well-written show.

I mean, I talk about it constantly, anyone who will listen. But, and so I think this is like definitely better quality than like a CW show or a WB show. But like, I just think it, it, like, clearly, like, learned some lessons from season one and applied some like more classical television ethos, like, in the way that. predate streaming. So that's what I thought the difference was because I was thinking about it a lot while I was watching. Did you pin down some like other tonal or structural differences that like stuck out to you? Well, we've we've talked about this a bit, but like a huge thing for me. And you're right. I think they learned a lot of lessons. They approached this season with what felt like a lot more confidence about what they were doing, the stories that they were telling and how those stories

went together. I remember coming out of season one a bit like kind of not sure what was going on with like the Penelopean Lady Whistledown storyline and how all of the Bridgerton siblings like little stories tied together. And here in season two, I loved the way that they brought family into the mix,

both on the side of the Bridgetons and on the side of the Sharma Sheffields. I felt so much more invested and interested in the smaller storylines while still being like fully invested and obsessed with the central romantic storyline. I think, like, they really nailed the ethos as far as giving these stories,

these characters' backstories that made sense. And I think so much of that came with this sort of, like, eldest child's sensibility of Kate and Antony and how that related to one another and how that related to the people around them. And anytime you can, like, overlap something like that, where you're using a backstory to not just affect one storyline, but to affect all the storylines.

that's going to be successful TV. Yeah, I think that's a good point. And the family stuff was so good. I think another reason we didn't miss the Duke is because both because of the stunning beauty of the Duke of Hastings and the way the show was written, they were so distracting and so, so central that the other characters were really on the periphery,

even if, you know, there was some excitement around who they could be and, like, learning more about them. But to your point, they really balance the central tension and like love story of Antony and Kate really well with finding ways to develop Penelope, Eloise, Colin, Lady Featherington, the Queen. Like, we learned a lot about a lot of characters. It's probably why the episodes had to be so long.

Right. But as a result, it felt like a way bigger world. Like, I think another show that I'd love to throw out as like a kind of has some of this juice is Game of Thrones. Like, you know, we have like a bunch of different families and different clans. And I think that very frequently world building

is attributed to male targeted and male written shows. But I think that this is a great example of world building as well. And like there's, there are a lot of directions

to go within Netflix's Regency London as thought of by Chris Van Dusen and Julia Quinn. Yeah, it's like, it's literally fantasy. Like that is, you know, that is what it is.

And so building this world out, I love visiting the country in this season. that felt like such a new place and kind of gives the promise of future seasons of like continuing to find new settings

that offer like different parts of this world and the country was so central to Anthony's character and like how he felt out there and the pain he had experienced out there another show I'll throw into the mix that I kept thinking about

which it had such a central impact on my life I think about it anytime I watch other shows about family is parenthood. Oh, I love parenthood too. Like the way that these siblings relate to one another and, and I think especially this relates to parenthood, the way they just, like, are constantly making mistakes. Like, all Kate and Anthony do are, like, make mistakes. And eventually, while thinking that they're in the service of others, and, like, eventually

they have to come to grips with that. That's a really good point. I actually thought you were going to say Downton Abbey, because I think that, like, I'm sure that was part of the pitch of this show, too. It was like, Downton meets scandal, meets whatever. Like, I think we can just take that as a given, right? And I'm not the hugest down in head, but I think the reason I don't think of that one as much

is because I've watched some of it, so this could be wrong, but, like, the intimacy of those sibling relationships in parenthood and the way that you, like, understand those on a deeper level is what struck me. Crosby's just an all-time great character. Like, I just, I absolutely love him. And, like, I don't know, Michael B. Jordan's work on that show

was stunning to... Sarah Ramos, if you're not following her on Instagram, that's something you need to get into. That's a different pod. This is a parenthood pod. Anyway, it's just like a, it was a really comprehensive look into the world. And as a result, I didn't miss the Duke.

I will say, trying to incorporate Daphne often worked for me. I thought the way that she kind of came in as like the wise older sister and also like kind of like the confidant for her mother, that definitely worked for me. It didn't work for me at the end when she arrived with her child and you're just like, does the Duke never come?

Like, I thought there was just like a touch too far of trying to like make it all neat. And I was like, and I was actually wondering if they would be able to get like one scene with him. Like I really. I thought the same thing because it had been so seamless with Daphne throughout the like, I just never even questioned that he wasn't there. And then there in episode eight, they started dropping these little lines like, oh, well, Daphne couldn't come to the ball because she couldn't find a babysitter for the baby.

And then at the very end, when she shows up with the baby who looks so much like the Duke, I was like, maybe he's going to come. Maybe this is the huge. I know. This is about to be a huge deal. I thought it was going to be like a mega reveal. And I was like, oh, my God, is it going to happen? And then it didn't.

So maybe that is like the one moment where we missed him. That is, yeah, that is literally the one, the one moment. But like, yeah, I think the way that I had to, if I had to guess, I mean, this is pure conjecture because they probably knew they would never get him back for season two. but if I had to guess the one way that I think you could have had him involved in the show that would have been meaningful would be as

like the sounding board for Antony because it's almost like what Anthony was for him until it goes awry in season one and book one. And that would have worked but like A, if you're if you're Reggie Jean-Page, do you take a smaller role like that after this breakout? Like absolutely not.

And number two, I don't think we would have gotten nearly as much Benedict and Colin as a result. And a lot of the brother scenes were, to your point about family, like, so fun. And I like, I just really, I think that not having him opened up the show. So it was a blessing in disguise for the show itself, in my opinion. We're so positive over here. We just love it. We love it. All right. Next. What was your favorite episode of season two? Juliet, I'm actually going to demand that you go first on this question because I think I already

know what your answer was because you said it off air and I was shunned. I was shocked. stunned, shunned. Really? Yes. My favorite episode of television in recent memory is episode six of season two, which is the wedding that is never to be. And also a fucking long episode. Yeah, it's really long.

So good. I loved it. In episode six of season two of Bridgeton, the wedding of Anthony and Edwina is supposed to happen. And like 20, 15 minutes into this hour and 10 minute long episode, Kate is playing with her bracelets and one drops and Anthony as a reflex bends over to grab it for her. Their eyes and their hands meet and suddenly Edwina realizes why her sister has been, you know, eschewing the, the Lord Bridgeton for this whole season so far. And then from there, so many things happen.

And I thought this was also really interesting episode. The other things that happened in this episode is the king makes an appearance where his, I guess Alzheimer's or dementia becomes really apparent. The queen is seen vulnerable in this whole episode because this was a match that she ordained and now it's not working out. Eloise runs off to go visit her man at the printer, Theo. Just so much happens.

There's a lot of movement, a lot of doors opening and closing. And then it finally builds to this, to a vitamin C quartet version of What About Us by Pink which is a song

that I love playing. Shocked. Shocked. They had not gotten a pink song in here yet. That's like so

perfect for an orchestra. It builds to Antony and Kate finally kissing in the chapel. And I loved this episode. I loved how much

happened. There were so much speechifying. And it really, really, really reminded me of a grace anatomy season finale. And I thought that was really interesting because it's episode six.

And this show is built on having contained seasons. It's an anthology, but not. And I thought it was a really interesting lesson of how you take the network model and shoehorn it into a Netflix season where you know you have a beginning and an end and maybe you only have Simone Ashley for one season with an option. Like, who knows? And I like, I love the way the episode built. I loved as also kind of like Edwina's coming out episode. The back half of the season is really strong for Edwina, who is the younger Sharma, and she is wonderfully played by Teresa Shandran.

And she's great. Yeah. And she really comes into her own. Like from this episode forward, for like, you know, the final four hours of the show, we get a lot of her in a new way. And I just thought it,

like, it combined so much and it had a lot of familiar tropes to me. That's probably why I loved it. And I just thought it was perfect. I was like, this is like my platonic ideal of, a melodrama season finale. So then it was really interesting

having two more episodes. But I like broke to take a shower between six and seven. And I was like, God, that was so great. Why were you so surprised that I loved this episode so much? It's a great episode. And I really loved listening to you to describe it

because it helps me dwell on how good the episode was and I really did enjoy it. But to me, it is so painful. I mean, they're doing a great job by making it that painful. But it's like, it's like the, the culmination of what you're hoping to,

or what I was hoping to avoid was like a true, true conflict between these two sisters. And at that point, you're just realizing, like, there's no avoiding it. Edwina is going to notice this. And it's going to be terrible. So, like, so the thing about the romance genre as a book, and then as it applies to screen when it's adapted,

is that you have to find ways over and over to keep these people apart. And that's, like, the best part. and it also can be the most frustrating part. So for me, this was kind of like the culmination of my frustration with these characters, which means that the show is being successful, but it also means that I'm like, why can't you just stop being idiots? Like, you love each other, you see it, you love each other, just say it, just say it,

like stop being dumb. No one wants you to be doing what you're doing. That's what I felt for like the entirety of episode six. And so while I thought it was like a great episode of television, I found it an extremely frustrating and upsetting experience. But I think that you have said this to me before when we've talked about Bridgerton is that like you really like the angst. Yeah, I was just going to quote the great Andy McPhee from Dawson's Creek,

which she said, it's our pain that makes us real, Dawson. I know. And so I think that is important to these kinds of shows. I mean, like I really love like a TV soap. I mean, you know, just because, primetime doesn't mean it's not a soap and um or on Netflix for that matter and i do i do like the angst and i think that writers like the angst because i enjoyed i was curious to see like where what will they do now for two more hours like where is this going um but i very frequently with romcams

and romantic television enjoy the buildup and then i think there's a long history of shows becoming worse once the couple gets together because they don't you don't know what to do like it's true for the office. It's true for friends. Like when the couple gets together, I mean, those are two comedies, but I think this is true for dramas as well. It's why people are always breaking up in dramas as, too.

It's just sort of inherently less interesting because there's less, there is less angst and there is less pain. And I think it's hard. One of the things is good about this show is they tie up these storylines and they're going to move on to other characters. You don't have to worry about like,

will the show be good? Yeah, or like, will I enjoy these people together as much as I enjoyed them apart or getting together? And, yeah, I mean, to expose myself on Maine a bit here, like, something that I relate to Antony about is, like, being extremely pain avoidant. And so while I, while I like watching it happen, it is still, like, a very emotional experience for me to watch themselves put themselves in such a painful position. But like you said, about, you know, kind of once the characters get, it together, it just inherently becomes less interesting.

I think that's part of why I liked, I enjoyed watching the season two love story more, is that I think it much more naturally kept them apart and like literally apart. Because even though the Duke and Daphne remain angry at each other for a long time in season one, they literally get married. And so they're sort of like halfway together in the middle of the season. And then you just have to watch them be frustrated with each other over and over again. And so I personally enjoy keeping this Kate and Anthony couple apart longer. But, well, to answer the question, I think my favorite episode, although it is not technically the theme of our podcast right now, is episode four because it has like so many of those juicy moments of like meeting in the library by candlelight, you know, like just a lot of buildup.

And that's what I find like the most fun part of these kinds of love stories. But I also really loved episode five when he falls in the river. and they have that moment where their like pinkies float towards each other, which just has to be a reference to 2005 Pride and Prejudice, like the hand grasp. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm a romantic. What can I say?

Five is also fun because it's funny. Like the following, there's like some slapsic humor. Also, so frequently we see Kate, the character being pained, and she gets to have a little fun and smile and laugh in episode five. So, that's nice as well. Yeah, because how cute is Mr. Dorset in the boat? So cute. in another life.

I know. I was very briefly, like, this sounds good. Her just going to be a governess, live an independent life, and occasionally have, like, a hot visitor in India. That's a good life for Kate. Totally. That's a great alternate reality. I think while we're just talking favorites,

like a couple other moments and scenes we have to mention, I think number one in episode seven, Harmony, when no one comes to the ball, but the Bridgetons and the Sharmas and Lady Dan Barry all dance together. I mean, and sort of the linchpin of that as Hyacinth gets to join in, and she's so excited. I mean, that was wonderful

and probably Antony at his absolute best as a man. That felt like Anthony as Jonathan Bailey. Like, that felt like him being, because I've read a lot of things that Jonathan Bailey is like a very generous actor and, you know, really like kind of held that cast together. And, you know, like the girl who plays Hyacinth really loved him. And it was nice to be able to be able.

able to, like, see him as a sweet brother and not just a brooding bachelor. Why did the cast need to be held together? Did they have friction? Oh, no, not in a friction way, just in a, like, that he would check on people and make sure they were doing okay sort of way. I think, you know, it's probably just, like, long hours, big sets. They were outside a lot in this season. Sometimes that sun felt blazing.

Totally. Or cold. I was thinking it could have been really cold as well. It could have been cold. Who knows? Also, another reason I like season six is I liked a lot of the like milling about that happens when people don't know what to do. And there's like a lot of people around.

Like, I actually thought that was like a pretty realistic. Like, oh, the wedding got called off and we're all still here. Like, what do we do? So I- The queen won't let us leave the palace. Yeah. Yeah. And that was like a really good opportunity for a lot of the tracking lady whistle down stuff.

The Eloise and Penelope sort of like keeping eyes on each other stuff. It was good. The peacocks were good. Totally. Also, they laid a lot of, they laid the thread really well. I will say one thing that also makes the show more enjoyable is that like at the end of my beloved episode six, I texted a friend. And I was like, oh, so the queen is going to think that Eloise's lady whistle down.

And that comes to roost right away. And I was really glad that we weren't like heading into the next season with the queen thinking was Eloise. So like that was a relief to me too. Yeah. I mean, the queen has been chasing this story for a long time. She wants the answers and she's going to roll up in her care. and get them.

One of our other big questions is I'm curious what you think about the queen and what she, what they sort of accomplished with that storyline in this season. She was around a lot. A lot. Yeah. She was around a lot more. And we know that I believe she is, there's supposed to be a spin-off about the queen's like younger story.

So do you find yourself invested in that? Yeah. So the queen, so this shows exactly a pretty. by Shonda Rhymes and Betsy Beers, written and created by Chris Van Dusen. He's handing off the show running responsibilities for season three and four, so I'm interested to see how that goes.

That's a classic Shonda Land move. They move through showrunners a lot, but keep it within the family, so I'm curious to see how that goes. But I mention it because Shonda and Betsy Beard, Shonda's writing, and Shonda and Betsy Bears, her producing partner, are doing the Queen and Charlotte show themselves.

So I think that's really interesting, and I'm super excited about it. I mean, I didn't love inventing Anna, as we discussed on, on, uh, ringer dish. But the idea, the idea of Shonda, like, leading the writer's room for a full season of a show in the Bridgetton world after I've seen how I think they've kind of nailed the pacing and the emotional beats for season two is, is really exciting to me. So like, the queen as a character, I don't need to care that much about because I know that like this will be really exciting. Um, right. But I also do care about her. her more. You know, she, she was a mix of like cunning and vulnerable, mostly cunning in this,

in this season. But, you know, I think like she's just kind of like an interesting character to see her and Edwina together in the way that she both holds grudges, but also wants things to work out was interesting. And, you know, it's a completely made up take on what it's like to be the queen regent or, you know, like to be married to the king. And so I'm curious to see, like, how that extends. At one point, they referred to her. as the Queen of England. And I was like, man, that's really not how I've been thinking about her. Like, she is straight up the Queen of England.

Like, why is she showing up at these parties? I know, why is she available for, like, the Featherington ball? Doesn't she have something she needs to be doing? The Featheringtons are poor. Why is she there? I guess no one knows that. That is one thing that I felt about the Queen. And I didn't dislike it.

I just thought it was kind of funny. Is that, like, she's really not as tough as she acts. She's kind of a pushover. I mean, it should have been absolutely world and family. that those two broke off that wedding. Right. They should have never recovered from that. And they recovered in days.

And she's the one that recovered them. Yeah. She sells the story that it was her idea. Yeah, totally. And it's funny. Like, she was able to recover from that. But another question, who got the worst end of the betrayal stick?

We got a few candidates here. We got Edwina. We got Elie's. We got Benedict. We got Lady Featherington. We'll go through them all. Anyone I forgot, though, from that list?

Anyone else betrayed? Those are some pretty heavily betrayed people. Let's start with Benedict because I would say he's the least betrayed. He's betrayed, absolutely. He's betrayed because Anthony paid for him to get a space in the Royal

Academy to pursue his arts. And he thought he just got in on his own merit. And so he's upset and then gives up his craft because he feels he hasn't earned it, I guess. That storyline didn't really work for me. It did not. I was, you know, Benedict gets the shortest end of the story stick

every year so far. Like, he definitely has the smallest story. But I was happy to just occasionally see him in art school. I didn't really need it to have emotional resonance. And I also, I mean, you know, it also is kind of like, oh, poor little rich boy is, like, realizing that he's privileged and not maybe as talented as he thought he was. Also, it's always hard when someone in a show is like a writer or an artist or something where you actually have to, like, see their talent.

And anytime anyone was painting in this show, it was pretty tough. Like, I feel that there had to be someone in the art department who could have just stepped in and made those paintings a little better. Did you watch The Guild of the Gilded Age? I did. I have not watched it. There's a, there's a gift of a homemade painting in that show, too, which really made me laugh. Yeah. Like, it's just as an artist, I don't know if he has the talent or not, but the only way to find out is to stay in school, bud.

So, I thought. it was kind of like a nice thing that his brother did. And then when he talks to Antony about it, Anthony says something really nice to him, which is that, like, you have a ton of talent. You have so many great things about you, including the way that you make other people feel and how you, like, seek out to comfort people

when they're in pain. And I just found it kind of a weird story choice for Benedict to then be like, okay, bye. He didn't even, he doesn't even flinch at that commentary. He's like abscond in the night with his paints. I feel that, I feel that Benedict was barely betrayed. I would say just above him on the list is Lady Featherington.

Because she is also so... I loved the Lady Featherington storyline. I found myself really invested in it. I like her as a character who is both, like, bad and you want to root for her. Or at least I do, especially in this season, as she sort of, like, got her feet under her about being, you know, almost like a business woman. There's a really funny line where she's been just scheming and scheming upstairs in the study with Lord Featherington.

Jack, cousin Jack. Cousin Jack, if you know I'm like Juliette does. And then he comes down, she comes down to see the Modis, Madame de la Cueh down there. And she's like, can you imagine having to run your own business as a woman? And it's like, lady, you've been running your own business. And it's a scam. So, yeah, I don't feel that she, I think she really found like a pretty like-minded person. cousin Jack, she just happens to be motivated by something greater, which is being a mother.

What do I think he was motivated by? Because when he was trying to seduce Lady Featherington, do you think his plan was just to abscond with the money, like, on his own? Or do you think he really wanted her to come? Like, what do you think he was trying to get from her? Why? Because did he need her? I wasn't totally sure. I found it fun, like, how long it took to figure out whether he was truly bad or any and maybe he wasn't truly bad but you know he he really in the beginning has to get talked in sort of talked into that scheme by lady featherington whether he's playing that that he's having to get talked to into it or not is is the fun part of trying to figure out i i think that he really was attracted to her like but i think it seemed to me that he really did want to be with her and was

like turned on by her as this like this like business woman with no morrow. But I think he's just like a true cad. He's a rake, like they talk about. He's the capital R rake. He is the capital R rake in the end. And so he just, like, has no idea that when he's telling her, oh, yeah, we'll leave your daughters behind and maybe grab him later, that that will come across bad because he thinks he's found a totally like-minded person that is like his partner in crime. Right. But she's not really.

I was really relieved that Collin didn't get swindled. Like, thank God. I was quite concerned about that. I was just like, oh, no. And I, I'm invested in the Bridgerton's, like being higher class in the Featheringtons. And so I was really relieved by that. I thought, I thought the Colin stuff, I like Colin and like I liked getting to know him. I think his character is a little bit jumbled.

But, you know, as you were talking through Anthony's response to Benedict, it kind of reminded me that, like, this is actually like a pretty different Anthony than we got in season one. And like, that's okay. It was like an Anthony reset in some ways. because he was definitely presented as sort of like a swashbuckling, like, playboy and who, and that's one of the reasons why Simon wasn't to be trusted because, like,

he was like Antony. And it's sort of, he also sort of morph over the course of the season where like he starts out is just being like, I'm looking, I'm not looking for a love match because he's spurned, but then he turns out to be a man of honor and duty. And it's just, it's like a little hard to reconcile Anthony of season one and the Anthony

we get by the end of season. two. But on the other hand, I just don't really care. So I'm like, if Collins's a little confusing... They did a good job. Yeah. I think. Yeah. If Collins's a little confusing, like he's young and like as a man so they can, as a human, so they can figure it out along the way. Right. And it is kind of like a proof of concept that these characters who are a little

more in the background that may be going into a new season, you can just change them. Because what they've really done with Anthony in season two is he's gone from whatever he was in season one to who he is in the books and who he is in the books. is very motivated by family and very motivated by this, like, central trauma and grief of losing his father. So he literally says at the end of season one that, like, he's realized he has to take love out of the equation.

And in season one, we're putting that to, because he's been, like, officially broken up with by this opera singer that he's been breaking up with all seasons. So there's just kind of no reason that he really would have been that motivated by that. And then in season two, they can just change that motivation. Or they can just say, you know, You didn't know it then, but this is actually what it was. He lost his father at a young age and had all this responsibility thrust upon him.

I do think with, like, Colin and to a lesser degree Benedict, and Penelope, who is supposed to become a more central character in later books and therefore maybe later seasons of the show, we are getting to know them a pretty good bit. Like, we are learning all these things about them. And so that does make it a little harder to walk it back. But we'll see. Yeah, we'll see how it goes. Next on the list, who is wronged more? Edwina or Eloise? Edwina.

It is absolutely Edwina. I mean, my little heart broke for Eloise. That friendship was so important to them. And it felt very, you know, it felt like something like that could have happened outside of Fantasy Regency London. Like it felt like a teen, angst show of these two girls getting in this fight and, you know, sort of swearing that. they're being protective of each other, and then that's why they're hurting each other is because

they're being so protective of each other. And I did feel for Eloise. But with Edwina, it is happening with a true sister. And she is like on the marriage altar when she realizes the way that she is being betrayed. It's just so dramatic. Sure. Okay. I want to make the case for Eloise. Okay. Okay. Hit me. I don't know if I believe it, but I want to make the case. Eloise is sacrificed by her friend in the pages of Lady Whistledown's sheet. Eloise, her, and then not only she sacrificed, but then her relationship was put on Front Street to her whole family, which is like, then makes her like, you know, undatable until the next season, basically. And she loses a friend of, you know, her closest friend. And she's,

also have been actively lied to. Penelope was actively lying to Eloise and to everyone, but specifically to Eloise, like for the last two seasons, because she's trying to figure out who Lady Whistledon is. Kate, like Antony, really did have the best intentions, but the heart wants with the heart wants. She didn't want this to happen, but it did. And what was she supposed to do? Tell her sister that she was in love with her fiancee. Just a thought. Just something I thought maybe she should have done from like episode four onward. But what she ultimately says to Edwina is that she was lying to herself, and that's why she ended up betray. And, you know, that is totally understandable.

It doesn't make it any easier for Edwina to stomach, especially because it was happening twice over to Edwina. It was not just her sister, but her betrothed who, you know, I don't think she's ever fully in love with, but she sees this life with him that she really likes, and all of that disappears with the drop of a bangle. The thing about Eloise is that I do feel for her she is being lied to, but for me, me what comes out of that story is less, is a little less about Eloise and a little more about Penelope, which is like, this is the second time she's done this. Twice as a pattern, babe.

Like, you can't keep exposing these people that you're being so kind to in real. I mean, that is duplicitous. She did it to Marina, her cousin, and then she does it to her best friend. So it's like, the closer you are to her, the worse off you'll be is kind of the theme that are picking up, no matter how adorable Nicole Coughlin is. I thought Edwina that she had like the deepest barb of the season when she was mad at Kate and referred to her as her half-sister versus her sister.

Oh, yeah. Especially coming off the dinner scene, which I believe happens in episode five. The end of episode five. The Sheffields arrive and the Sheffields are Lady Sharma's parents who she hasn't seen in a really long time since she went to India for love. And at that point, it comes out that,

But for some reason, only Kate knew, which didn't really make sense either, but who cares, that Edwina had... She's been having, like, a letter correspondence with them. She wrote to them. And I would maybe position that as an outright lie the way that she has been keeping the Sheffield thing from Edwina and from her mom. Yeah, I thought that keeping from her mom was the weirdest part. Edwina is a little bit different. But basically, to get the Sheffield inheritance, Edwina had to marry nobility. And so that's why it was so important she married Lord Bridgeton.

So Kate was keeping that a secret. That was the one that made me angry because it would be so easy to tell that one. Mostly because she didn't do any arranging for Edwina to be engaged to Antony. Antony wanted it. Edwina wanted it. It happened naturally.

It was more the queen than anything. Right. The queen arranged it with a little, yeah, with a little push by Lady Danbury who did know about the Sheffield thing. But in that case, it's on Lady Danbury. Like it would have been that, you know, it works really well,

but it does become frustrating with the characters of Kate and Anne. Anthony just how hard they're working against themselves because they see themselves in this certain light and this certain role that they have to, that they have to play that like everyone's kind of like, please don't do this. We don't need you to play this role. Please stop trying to. And they just can't stop. Along these lines, next question. Was it a mistake to make Edwina so mad at Kate and to put them at odds for, you know, basically three episodes? I don't think it was a mistake to make Edwina as mad as Kate as she was,

because the plot that they had set up, I think she could only be that angry, lest she be seen as just like a pushover and a really naive younger sister, which I think that that character building is actually really interesting and really fascinating and well-acted. I do think that, like,

about the same thing could have been, the same story could have been accomplished with slightly lower stakes if they had just, gotten really far into the engagement and not to the altar. Yeah. I don't want to rag on your favorite episode six, Juliet. I would never.

But it was torture watching that happen for me. So, like, I just, I think realistically, in this fantasy that we're watching, it would be really impossible to recover from that. So plot-wise, I think it went a little far. Character-wise, I think all of the sort of actions and repercussions made sense. What did you think while you were watching it? I liked it because I liked seeing Edwina sort of like gather her power.

And I liked also, you know, because she was stepping out from her sister's like wing, essentially, she was able to start figuring out who she is. I also liked the storytelling device of her being like, I might not know who I am yet, but it's not what you've pushed me to be. And so I thought that was like interesting and kind of unexpected. And, you know, when she steps in for this,

when she steps in when this queen is horrified that she and her mother and Lady Danbury are seeing the king in his current state. I thought that was just like really sweet. So while it might have gone too far, I thought that it allowed Edwina to become a fuller character and sort of more for the actress to do and just like it added to the story. So I was like ultimately okay with it, but it did seem pretty dramatic.

But I don't know. I thought it had its purpose. and I therefore was okay with it. Yeah. No, you're totally right. Getting to like experience Edwina like that, I think was really great for the show. And I love the little drop at the end of episode eight where the queen's like, have I told you about my nephew? He's a prince.

I know. I loved that too. I would love to see that for Edwina. That's what she deserves. I know. Because also I was like, what does happen to her? But like with the queen taking her under her wing and, you know, she almost like trades Kate for the queen for who's going to be her guide through the next season. So we don't need to worry about Edwina.

So she's all good. I think we haven't talked about Kate enough. So on that note, what was your favorite Kate romance or angsty scene that didn't make you too uncomfortable, Jody? Can deal with the angst if it's leading to romance. Well, probably a combination. I mean, it's, I know it's a little silly, but like the horse stuff, the like falling off the horse, just how over the top that is. I really loved. I would actually say that my favorite

ink scenes, I am going to get to Kate, but my favorite ink scenes are with with Antony. I really love the stuff between him and he and his mom. I think it's so interesting to take such like an out there fantastical story of Regency London

and then just like make the backbone of it. Like, yeah, everything just comes back to your parents. It always just comes back to your parents. I know. He has this central wound with his, not just his dad, but with his mom. And the mom thing is something that it seems like he really has not faced up to yet until, you know, this season of television that we're watching in with him. And that she hasn't faced up to yet, like, that she hasn't wanted to look at how absent she was and how he was thrust into this role of responsibility that has ultimately led him to be this person that she's seeing. And so she doesn't want him

to be this way. She wants him to be able to embrace love and to seek love. But in some way, she is really the reason that he can't because he's seen the immense amount of grief that she suffered and he doesn't want to inflict that on anyone. So my favorite angsty scenes were kind of like watching them work through that, both at the graveside and I think in an Antony's study. Ooh, I have so many favorite romance scenes. Probably, and most of them are in episode four. I love the I love what she's wearing on the line. I love the hunt, too. It is such a classic move to, like, have the guy get behind the girl and help her hold a gun, as it were.

I also really love Antony being jealous of her when she's in the boat with the other suitor, with, like, the first real threat of a suitor that he's seen. And you see him, like, literally push the other guy out of the way to help her out of the boat. And then, you know, of course, that all ends with him soaking wet and getting, lusted after by the Sharma sisters. So those are some top faves. What about you? I love when he's like,

you think I want this when he, when he channels the Duke. And he's just like, you think I want to think about you. And I love that. I also really liked when they meet at the Featherington's, I think it's the Featherington's ball. It's some ball when they're behind the statue,

talking to each other and kind of like, moving in a really choreograph fashion. That really recalled the very famous Claritaine's Leonardo DiCaprio first meeting scene. in Bazlerman's Romeo and Juliet. So I really liked that. There are a couple really good camera tricks. That one with the statue.

And then I think the other conversation that you're referring to, I believe it's after the Sheffield dinner. And the camera is over one side of Kate's shoulder as he says something along the lines of like, I hate you. Like, I can't stand your presence. And then like the camera pans past her neck

to the other side of the shoulder. And then he starts talking about why he hates her, which is because he loves her so much. I really liked that. Me too. Me too. I thought it was just really, just really well done.

And their scenes together were really good. I really believed in them as a couple. She was radiant. And I feel like in the first half of the show, I was like, wow, I can't believe how good she is. And then he really came into his own. And I found myself really kind of fixated on him through the end of the season.

Fixated is the right word. I would say the same thing. It was like in the back half, it was just like any scene. I was just looking for him. Like I was looking for Anthony and or Jonathan Bailey. His ability to emote with just his face is really amazing. He's a really good actor.

I don't know if you, do you watch Piki Blenders? No. I couldn't recommend it more. I'll watch it. No, he's not. But in that show, Killian Murphy does a very specific walk as Tommy Shelby where he kind of holds his arms out to his side and like it's like a very intentional like strong. but like almost like an angry walk.

And Jonathan Bailey, I have to assume he watched peekie blinders because he does the exact same walk and it really works. Also because Killing Murphy has talked about it. He says that he, based it on George W. Bush. And also, wow.

Killing and Murphy and Jonathan Bailey are both not the tallest men, but they're playing these like really like virile and powerful dudes in these British period pieces. And I think it's a way of sort of like adding to their stature, and Killing Murphy has talked about this a little bit. Although, I'll be like, I'm short, so I had to do this. But anyway. I had that thought in watching Kate and Anthony in their final dance of, like, I like that

they're about the same height. Yeah, I thought that was intentional because they could have given him lifts or they could have given her different shoes. Like, you don't see her feet that much. And so I think they wanted them to be eye to eye. I liked that a lot because there are so many parallels between their characters that it just makes sense that when they're dancing together, they're like looking eye to eye with his smoldering stare.

Absolutely. And on this note, Jody, what are your thoughts on gazebo sex before marriage? I knew that this was going to bring us to the gazebo. Like, I would say so earned and I think very well done. What did you think? I loved it. I loved that scene. I love like the foregrounded female pleasure.

It did. I mean, there is what, so there's both the sex scene in the gazebo. And then there's Kate flashing back to it. And I really liked that when Kate flashes back to it, you see it almost entirely from her point of view, including one little clip of him downstairs that is like much more graphic than I was expecting. It's not graphic. It's like it is romantic, but it's explicit. Yes. It is much more explicit than honestly, I felt like anything was in season one, even though it was like nonstop bare butts and thrusting. It's like there's a difference between what is like sexy and what is just sex. And I did find those scenes very sexy.

I did not expect them to have sex before marriage at all. I thought they were going to ultimately get married in episode seven. I just, I don't, it's such a thing in the books. And he says over and over, I'm a gentleman. Every time he's about to kiss her, he reminds himself that he's a gentleman. And then he just comes out here and starts sniffing necks. I mean, he is just like, like an animal just sniffing her. which is great.

I mean, I loved it. I also, what she's... Oh, go ahead. No, you go. Keep going. What she's wearing in that scene, that, like, lavender corset and, like, I hope this becomes a finty set. Like, yeah, her little, like, short pantaloons are so cute.

She never looks more gorgeous than when she is in, like, a white nightgown with a side braid. That is the look for Kate, and she gets it a lot. But what did you think about the gazebo sex? Well, just to that point. in her fashion. She wears so much purple, which is, you know, like a regal color and like a color of wealth. So very intentional. And then, of course, in the very end, she's wearing orange. Like, you know, they're very intentional with her costumes, which I love, of course. And so I do think when you see her in, uh, in like the white nightgowns or in her undergarments, it's like kind of disarming because

we've seen her in basically one shade for almost the entire show with her hair really like done up and everything. So that's really effective. I love the gazebo sex. Um, I thought it was really well choreographed and really well shot. You know, very, very much discussed with season one was that Regéjejean page and Phoebe Dinever did one of their sex scenes on the first day of shooting. So I was kind of curious,

like, how long did they wait to do this one? But I thought it was really effective. It felt really earned. I think the explicitness felt a little more surprising because of the buildup to it, whereas season one begins with Jonathan Bailey's bear behind, as discussed in the previous episode. So I thought it was hot. I was like, all right, great.

And I think it's like, it also, I know, I'm sorry to keep bringing up grades, but it also reminded me of when Derek and Meredith finally sleep together. I think it's at the end of season two. It's the same episode of it's the prom when Denny's LVat is cut and dies. So did they do it outside for their first time too? No, they just did it on a gurney in some hospital room. Oh, just on a gurney, just inside a hospital on a gurney, a normal. Yeah, I was very impressed with, like, the amount of pillows and blankets they were able to find in that gazebo.

When he wakes up the next morning, he is in, like, a full palette. That was one of my questions. Would he actually be able to sleep through the night on that concrete ground? And I have to say, like, I think it was great. I also liked that it happened outside. That's where they first met. It also, like, made it very carnal. And, like, I just, I had some questions that if he would actually sleep so well that he'd be astonished that she was gone the next morning.

He was just so happy, Juliet, and I think fully worn out, he wakes up with a smile on his face. I would call him a smirk, but yeah. That's like such a classic rom-com move to like wake up with a smirk and then look over and the other person is gone. So one thing that you've been saying is how he, that's been helpful for me, having not read book two, when he proposes to her, it's because he has had sex with her, not because he actually wants to get married, right? In the show. Yes. Well, that's what he says. He realizes that, right. But that's sort of like what motivated him, right? It's like he feels like he has to now, like his sense of obligation. Plus, he loves her. But the reason he... I assume now that, like, the reason he was so quick to do it was because of that. And it's helpful for me to hear you say that. Because I did think his, as you said, he does a lot of acting through his facial expressions. And he looked a little bit pained about promoting, proposing to her with the same ring that he proposed to her sister with. So,

Oh, that was interesting. And I wonder, you know, if that's a sort of, like, sliding doors moment of when he wakes up by himself. Because maybe if he'd woken up and she was there and they could have sort of talked through it, it could have been like a more honest situation. But he wakes up, she's gone and he has this sort of like crashing realization that he has, you know, taken away her honor or stole in the way that it would be referred to back then and that he has to propose, which is ultimately how they get together in the book is that they're caught in a compromising position. and he has to propose,

but he tells her that he'll never be able to love her. And so I really liked that change here that he feels like he has to propose and she says no, because she knows why he's doing it and she has no interest. She has no interest in honor in this way. I really liked that about her

as this woman that we've come to know her, this independent person who's very comfortable with the life that she expects, which is to go back to India, be a single woman, be a governess, be an aunt, to be all these things and a sort of lifestyle that I think, like, in this current day and age, we're even still sort of embracing that that is an option for our future lives. And we see her embracing that.

And so she's like, no, this is like, us having sex is not going to change the course of my life. If you would like you to change the course of your life, go for it. Of course, like, the most frustrating thing about that is that they are in love. They do want to spend the rest of their lives together. And they're still at that point in episode eight, like not able to admit it to each other. Seriously. The only thing that would have been better to me than gazebo sex would have been fancy janitor closet sex. When he comes in there in, I think it's episode six when she's hiding after the wedding that is not, I was like, oh, are they going to do it now? Because like, that

was like, that would be really like very romance genre-esque. But that were so many like tall, spindly shelves in there with like ornate pots on them. I feel like that would have been an absolute disaster. Isn't it common for Regency London homes to have like such a wonderful like pantry linen closet, janitor closet. Yeah, you don't have a gold closet at your house, Juliet. Not just a large cavernous closet full of bronze pots. Let's look ahead to season three a little bit because it's been picked up for at least five seasons so that we got three more to come.

And I think the characters that leave us with the most questions as we look ahead, for me, it comes down to probably Benedict Eloise Penelby and therefore, Whistledown. So, you know, there was the really interesting moment at the very end where maybe we all thought Lady Whistledown was dead because Eloise figured out who the real person was. And so it begins with Nicola Coughlin doing the voiceover as she's talking about whatever. And then it morphs into Julie Andrews. And it's like her persona is back. And so how did you, how did you take that in? Where did you think that was going? I was worried where it was going was to permanently have the voiceover as Nicola Coughlin.

Me too. I was like, I don't know. Yeah, it's, it ain't clicking. It's just that, especially after hearing Julie Andrews. Small plug for the ringer.com, I wrote an article ahead of season two in defense of Anthony Bridgerton. I defended a man on the internet. And I spent the first half of it sort of talking in Lady Whistledown voice, like wrote it. And there's like a certain kind of, I think, strength that comes with that.

And I was literally having to think of Julie Andrews voice in my head while I was doing it. And it's just, I just think that voiceover can only be her. And I also think it to, in Penelope's favor, continues to separate those characters. Because there's a lot of stuff that Lady Whistledown is saying that as we've seen, like once it's actually mirrored back onto Penelope, it's a really bad look. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

I agree with that. I was really glad Lady Whistledown was back. I mean, the voice of Julie Andrews. I don't know about the character. I am a little worried about how long this can go on for, like sort of, you know, will one or two characters learn the identity each season? Like, now we have two people who know,

Eloise and Madame Deliqua. You have to assume people are going to wonder why Penelope and Eloise hate each other going forward. So, you know, I'm sort of curious about how that will go. I think I'm pretty interested in seeing Penelope exposed. Like, if she, if Penelope and- Man, you hate Penelope. I don't hate Penelope, but it's like, I'm less interested in finding a lot of ways around it.

Yeah. It's not that I want to see her exposed and then, like, harmed. But I think it's interesting to, like, maybe Penelope has to move to America. I thought that that was, like, a pretty good option for the Featheringtons. It's to, like, move to a new place and start over. When they were talking about Georgia, I was, like, so confused. I don't know. Like, of all the states, I just didn't think that, like, Georgia would be the one they'd be discussing.

So I was like, do they mean the country? But then I was like, I don't know that Georgia existed in Regency, London Times. They definitely meant the state. You know, my family is from Georgia. I don't know about a lot of Ruby minds, but maybe that's because they were all dried up. Maybe from scammers. That was really, that was like that whole thing was really funny. What do you think, do you think Theo will be back next season?

What happens to Eloise and Theo? How do we feel about book spoilers? I allow it. Fast forward 30 seconds. If you don't want to know. He is her love interest from the books. So I find that to be sort of a challenging thing about these little relationships that are being set up, like between Colin and Penelope, between Eloise and Theo. Did you find, quick question, not on the official list.

Did you feel like Eloise and Theo had the exact same face? I just want to say you did put that on the official list, so it's fine. They have this same sort of like pointy nose. I think that's what you're referring to. Go back and look. They have very similar. similar faces, which is cute. I mean, I know it lost attract me so much that I'm like, it's all I see.

And he didn't, he did not have any bangs. But, you know, they set, they're setting up these relationships that for these two seasons that we've really enjoyed, we've basically been meeting brand new characters. And I do think that's part of the enjoyment. Like, if, if, if Antony had suddenly been married, had suddenly been interested in, like, Lady Calper or the lady Cowper's daughter, the blonde gal in this season. I don't think that I would have been that interested in that. That this new and amazing woman came in is really what makes that relationship. So I'm curious about how they're going to balance that out. Well, that's a great segue into our next question.

According to the alphabet and to books, the next is Benedict. He is in book three. And he, I guess, again, mild spoiler. In book three, Benedict has a love interest who's not currently on the show. So that will be another new female lead. should they follow the book again. Are you excited about a Benedict season three? I think that I could be.

I think it's like a pretty similar feeling to Anthony, which is that I was not that taken with him in season one, but in like getting to know the actor and in finding out the casting for Kate, I got really excited. And I know that Benedict's love interest, I haven't read book three, but I know that she is a fan favorite,

much like Kate Sheffield, then Sharma, is a fan favorite. And so I think that could be pretty promising as far as, like, if they nail that casting, then maybe that's a good story. But it would be really different thematically, knowing that he's like this artist, although he's put his brushes down for now. Benedict is definitely my least favorite Bridgetton. Yeah, you really hate Benedict.

I don't even know why. I'm just like he stinks. So I'm not that excited about it. But again, like, I, you know, I wasn't, I didn't have thoughts on Anthony. I just think the only difference is we know more about Benedict through two seasons than we knew about Anthony through one. but we'll see how it goes. I would say if I had my pick, though,

I would pick Eloise next. Eloise is probably my favorite Bridgerton. I really love her. And I think that story has momentum. I agree. I think that, like, book three has been a dick, but it would probably be in their favor

to make the next season about Eloise. I think she's come out as a really strong character. She already has this thing set up with Theo. Her story is interesting as far as, like, becoming a political radical. So radical. So radical. She's trying.

I mean, I appreciated Theo dressing her down a little bit because she's not trying that hard. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a good idea. That would be my idea. It would be more Eloise. But I think that as they continue to expand, they can't keep it so strict to, like, one book or the other,

as we already saw, I think, with this season. So I'm hopeful. I mean, I'm, like, really sad this show is now gone for however long. I, wouldn't I just, like, last questions for you? This is actually my last question. Would you prefer to watch the show week by week? Or do you think it's better as a binge? I'm usually a week-by-week advocate,

but something about the frothiness of this, I kind of enjoyed it as a binge. And I will say I didn't watch it in one sitting. I probably watched it in like three or four. So, right. I think the romance goes down better as a binge. Like, it, you know, especially because we have those angstier episodes that it kind of keeps you holding on to sort of eb back and forth

between like the fun romantic episodes and the, and the more angsty episodes, whereas, like, if you were just getting episode six, per se, in one week, that might be kind of a sad week for me personally. There are some sort of middle options that, like, Hulu does, for example, which is, like, releasing the first three and then two, two, or one, one. And I will, because of how we did this podcast, I watched this in two halves. I watched episode one through four, and then I sort of bingeed episode five through eight. And I liked that breakdown.

I think they could find interesting ways to break these episodes down a little more because some of them are so long, but eight episodes isn't that many to binge. I've bingeed more. Sure. These are really long, though.

I know I said that a lot of times. Don't worry about my attention span, people. It's fine. I'm very curious to see how Simone Ashley's star rises. Same with Jonathan Bailey, but I think she and Cheritra Shandran will be the breakout.

I mean, they get so much time. They're also, like, less known and everything. But she's so fabulous and, and just, as we said, last time, Radiant. I'm curious to see what that translates into her for new roles and where she goes. But also, you know, the actress who plays Eloise, she is named, oh, shoot, sorry, I edit that too. the actress who plays Eloise named Claudia Jessie. And I think that she's, like, I would say, like, long term.

She maybe has the most, like, shall have, like, the longest career arc or something, just because I think she's really, really winning. But I also thought that about, like, many of the Game of Stones, Game of Thrones, Gals. And that wasn't the case. So I don't know. Maybe I'll be completely wrong. Yeah, I don't know.

I mean, she's so funny. She's very British. And so I do, like, feel like that puts her in sort of one area. But I'd love to see her in more stuff. I will, you're totally right about Simone Ashley and Sharia. And I believe I read that this is maybe the second thing that Sharita Shandran has done. Yeah, she's brand new to the scene.

Right. So impressive. Like, she's really great and I think it'll be fun to see her in more stuff. Simone Ashley is interesting because she has now done these two well-known, very different characters. Like, she's such a different character in sex education. So to see what she'll do next is really interesting. I don't think I would have remembered that she was in sex education if I, like, hadn't been like, you know, studying up on her or whatever or there hadn't been like built up to it because it's so, so different, which is a real testament to her.

Great, great actor. Yeah. I will just quickly shout out my guy Jonathan Bailey again. Yeah, he was wonderful. I do think he is going to have scripts littering his door. I think it's going to be less in a way of like with the Reggie Jean Page stuff, which is like, oh, this is a star. We put him in Bond.

We put him in like A-list movies. I think Jonathan Bailey could be doing a lot of different stuff. Like, you know, I'd like. I'd love to see him become, like, a really well-known and successful character actor so that I can watch him smolder on screen a little more. He was awesome. He was... It was a great season. I just...

All of this makes me wish there were more rom-coms because I think Eloise would be a great lead. I think Edwina would be a great lead. Like, all these people just, like, send him straight to the, like, rom-com heaven that doesn't exist anymore. Only in my heart, in my mind. I think it could be coming back. I hope so. Jody, this is a delight to do with you. Thank you so much to Steve Alman for.

producing this episode. Jody and I both pop on Ringer dish. So check out more of us there. Check out theringer.com for more of Jody's writing. And thank you so much for listening.